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Many say Wayne Selden can't be a good point guard, because he made few assists last season as a two guard.

Hmmm.

How many freshman 2 guards in Self's tenure have made lots of assists? Tyshawn Taylor was not a big assist man as a freshman 2 guard, and he developed to the point of being one of our best point guards during his senior season. Heck, TT lead KU to the NCAA Finals. I also recall Self trying Mario Chalmers at PG his freshman season, and finding him inadequate, and moving him to the 2, where I don't recall him being a big assist man his freshman season either. Of course, now Mario Chalmers plays point guard for an NBA team and has played PG for two NBA champions. I don't recall any other KU cases, but maybe others will.

Regardless, my point is that one should not doubt a great athlete's ability to grow into another position, because of statistics from an initial position that requires little, or none of the tasks of the new position. In particular, assist rates at 2 guard should not be considered a strong indicator of a player's ability to dish from point guard. Put yet another way, a player's failure to perform 1 guard tasks at the 2 should not be a red flag warning against shifting a 2 guard to the point.

In Selden's case, as in Tyshawn's case, the question is: would there be great enough net benefits to underwrite the cost of redeploying Selden to the 1? What would one get in the way of MUAs for incurring the learning curve? And would moving Selden open things up to get net better at the 1 and 2 by moving Selden to the 1?

The benefits of an overpoweringly long (6-4) and strong (a cut 220 lb) point guard would obviously be huge at the D1 level. Every short PG that was not a Sherron Collins grade wide body guard that he met he could take inside and overpower around the rim, or pull up anywhere on the floor and shoot over. That is the definition of MUA on the offensive end. Short players playing the X-axis up and under game work against long and skinny types like the Harrison twins always surprise one with how well they disrupt their opponents (recall 5-11 and 210 Sherron driving Derek Rose nuts in the '08 ring game), but when a 5-11 180 PG tries to get up and under a 6-4 220 long and strong like Wayne Selden, he just becomes a stepping stone for Selden on the way to the rim. Wayne proved last season that even on a bad wheel he can lower his CG and go at, or stay with, big and little guards. Imagine what he would do with two good wheels to a 5-11 180 guard. It would be, as was fashionable to say 15 minutes ago in rapidly mutating popular culture, "sick." Defensively, Wayne is Self's kind of guard-hard guy, so we would not have much cost to cover in having him handcuff opposing point guards.

The big cost with Wayne would be similar to the big cost with Tyshawn--steep and long learning curve--lots of TOs along the way. Lots of learning to put the ball on the deck both handed, and how and when to turn the corner on the dribble and go to iron in a half court set. Lots of learning about when to push the ball on the dribble and when to long pass it down the sideline instead.

Wayne would have to want to stay a third season to make it worth the investment for Self. Should Wayne even want to make the transition? Hell yes. Think how much more desirable Wayne would be to the NBA as an NBA body 6-4 220 PG than as a weak trey shooting 6-4 220 pound 2 guard. Do weak trey shooting 6-4, 220 2 guards even get drafted anymore?

Now, what about the 2 guard slot with Wayne moved out of it?

Ah, here is the rub.

KU would have to go small and moderately experienced (Frank/Conner/Devonte), or completely inexperienced, long and skinny with Svi. The logical and mouth watering choice would be Svi at the 2, but it would mean not one but two essentially vertical learning curves at 1 and 2 invested in for fruit-bearing next season. This is the choice Self does not want to have to make game in and game out and this is the reason Selden will not get the PG slot. Self likes to win now. Self only develops now, when he has no other choice. Self has another choice. Play Selden at the 2 without a learning curve and live with a learning curve at the 1. This is the win-now strategy and let next year wait for next year.

But, your honors, and the court, Gerry "jaybate' Spense stipulates the probability that Self will only play Selden at the 1 in anomalous situations, but this ghost of the old, cowhide-fringed country lawyer from the Tetons begs the courts pardon and indulgence a moment to imagine enduring double digit losses this season for a shot at an experienced backcourt of Selden and Svi next season with some top 15-20 guard recruit next season giving them back up length to go with two survivors of the Frank/Conner/Devonte short guard competition this season. Imagine the scoring and guarding from this back court in half court and in transition? Imagine the help inside and the help outside that could be supplied on demand. Imagine the open looks and the get to the rim action. Imagine the average D1 PG trying to shoot over Wayne and the average D1 2 trying to shoot over SVI. And imagine all of this with two good ball handlers that just happen to be 6-4 and 6-8.

Now, I know I am just being the ghost of a country lawyer here, but it seems almost unpatriotic, un-American, un-Kansas, and un-Jayhawk not to do what we know deep in our hearts would be the right thing and the great thing for our beloved team, school, game, state and country.

Rock Chalk, my friends, Rock Chalk!

@jaybate-1.0

This idea of putting Wayne at the point pulls on all our heart strings because it brings back memories of Self utilizing BRush out on point (defense) to disrupt the flow for Rose and company (which it did).

I think the one person you would have to commit to this idea is Wayne.

Wayne is the guy who needs to plot his future path in his basketball career. I'm not sure he has the speed and lateral movement to be a premiere PG in the league. It will take a monumental effort for Wayne to flip positions now. I'm not saying it is impossible, but Wayne would invest a huge amount of "opportunity costs" to become a respectable PG, even just on the college level. That "opportunity cost" is all the time and effort he would have to put in to learning and practicing the position, when he could be putting that time towards improving his shot and staying at the 2.

One thing is for sure.... Wayne needs to "settle in" to a few of his favorite perimeter spots on the floor and then practice thousands of reps if he wants to become a premiere shooter. It really isn't different for any other guy wanting to do the same, including one Conner Frankamp.

All of us need to revisit that one NBA site where you can look up the plot on every player and where they score their buckets. It is an amazing graphical representation that supports how the world's top players focus on their own "sweet spots" to raise their averages, hence, raising their salaries.

I think I'd rather have Svi start working on his PG skills. At that position he can hide his physical weakness in D1, while taking advantage of his size. The guy is very clever, sees the court well, and may easily end up being our best passer this year! From what I see it looks like he has good ball-handling skills, too. Everyone says he can hit the long ball, but also he's a guy who can shoot well from all over, including mid-range. We know he is going to be at Kansas for at least a few years, why shouldn't he invest now into being a PG? Imagine his talent in a few years and how he could develop into a top PG in the league some day.

If he plays even close to where he is expected to play, Wayne is gone after this season. No sense in experimenting with something that will most likely not happen.

@JayHawkFanToo

imagine if Selden shoots 32% from three point range, while otherwise having a great season. Which foreign league will he play in?

Wayne was a 2 who could slide over to the three.
He was recruited as a small forward by many schools out of high school.

Mario and Tt were combo guards.

Selden can't be a point guard because we have three better point guards on the roster

I keep wondering if Selden could play point if we needed size there, like against Kentucky? I don't think he is a point, but might get us a better size match up.

@TheDrunkenJhawk

But Big Wayne signed with Self who, if I recall correctly has said he views him as a combo guard and thinks that combo guards can play some 1, 2, or 3.

@jayhawk12

The three you refer to may, or may not be able to cut it in D1 at PG this season; that remains to be seen. And it is a given in what I am saying that Wayne would need a year of development work, same as Tyshawn, to perform well.

What will be interesting is if the three you refer to as better turn out to be NOT net better than Selden, just better in some ways and not in others, which seems to me a very real possibility.

What should Self do then?

I would argue that unless Frank, Conner and Svi offer sharply greater net benefit, then I would rather go with a great athlete like Selden for a year's development, so that you wind up with something truly extraordinary the following season.

@Crimsonorblue22

It seems highly probable that Selden will play some point against UK. But I can't tell if it will be on both ends of the floor, or just on one end.

@drgnslayr

The only reason I decided to delve into this issue is that I remember that the only thing I fretted about with Selden, outside of weak trey shooting last season was the slowness of his first step. That made me think he not only could not play point guard, but also probably would never dominate anywhere else on the perimeter either.

But once Self copped to Selden playing most of the season with a bum knee, it made me rethink Selden. If Selden could do what he did last season on a bum knee, imagine what the guy will be able to do this season with a sound knee. I then guessed that Selden's slow first step must have had something to do with his bum wheel. Then I thought, well, Selden with a good wheel would have the kind of quick first step and lateral speed to play point guard without much trouble.

That's my thinking nut-shelled.

The guy wasn't an impressive outside shooter. A good wheel will make him some what better outside, but he just does not look like a 40% trinitarian ever.

So: where does such a guy make the most sense?

To me you want him at the point, if his wheel permits him lateral agility and a quick first step.

@jaybate-1.0 I still don't think he's quick or agile, can slice and dice like TT, but those other 3 are really small. Who else you got 2-5? I think Self can change things up and will, depending on match ups. I think he'll start Mason, Wayne, oubre, Ellis and Cliff. Nothing will surprise me!!

@jaybate-1.0

Gosh... I love ball, and I love to theorize. But I'm not a coach. I don't feel like I have the solution for Wayne... run him at PG or 2.

I think we give something up if he isn't at the 2, and then someone would have to be able to produce at the 2. The 2 position should be our #1 producer on the perimeter. The 3 should swing in and out. So if Wayne can't hit the trey... maybe he should be at the point.

I remember hearing so much about him before his freshman year. I only heard more about Wiggins. So... I'm thinking he will have a quicker first step this year as long as he stays healthy.

If that be the case, maybe he can hang against a top notch PG. He'll have to do that or he'll quickly get into foul trouble.

I really want Svi to get some minutes at the point in hopes they groom him for the future. He may be the best passer on the team, can handle the ball and should be able to create defensive havoc at the top of the key.

I'm guessing you are thinking of putting Wayne at point and Brannen at the 2? Doesn't seem like we would want to lose more size at the 2 when moving Wayne to point.

@drgnslayr based solely on late pm, Svi just wants to shoot! And miss!

Omg, here we go again. Wayne can't be a point guard for the same reason Travis couldn't be a point guard. He doesn't have the ball handling skills or the quickness to play point guard for a major college basketball team.

@KULA
OMG, By your standards, then...

Frank has the Q but lacks the BHS!

Conner lacks the Q and the BHS!

And Devonte, since Self does not give him a clear edge, must lack something.

So why can't Wayne be developed despite his shortcomings the way these guys are being developed? Wayne seems to have more P (potential). 😄

Well, @KULA is dead right. So right that I could stop right now.

Wayne simply can't dribble the ball well enough to play the point.

This fact cannot be underestimated or ignored. The ability of a point guard to handle the ball is the most important skill set, bar none, of a point guard.

I recall sitting near courtside for a KU game -- the defender was all over TT as he brought the ball up the court, another was closing, and he delivered a pinpoint pass down to the corner to Reed, who shot a three. I told the guy I was with that what he saw, is the essence of point guard ball handling. Cool, sure handed.

I have said this many times, but if Wayne last season could not handle the ball in a basic press where he was the 2 guard, how in God's green earth could he play D-1 point guard? Self moved Selden to the 3 spot in the press, and moved Wiggins (no ball hander deluxe himself) to the 2 in the press.

Tight handles is the term. It's a disqualifier. To play D-1 point guard, it's a requirement.

Think of it this way. Imagine TT in your face as you try to bring the ball up the court. Quick, wingspan, harassing .. ugh.

Look, I know it's sexy to want Wayne to play the point. I'd love a 6'5" guy there too. But it isn't reality. It's much like Perry Ellis at the 3. It sounds nice -- until you see it in action.

Now here's the clincher -- playmaking. Self made this argument for me. If Self wants to get two smaller guards on the floor for more playmaking, who is that an indictment of? Right, it's Selden. Selden was the two last season. If Selden was even a hint of a playmaker, why that hyper-focus in the offseason?

Here's a pile on -- Self has said that we played last season with a point guard and "two big wings." Who were those two big wings? Right, Selden was one of them.

Personally, though, the playmaking is the next hurdle. You don't even get out of the blocks if you can't handle the ball sufficiently enough to be a D-1 point guard. And Selden, based on what we saw last season, doesn't even get in the blocks to start the race.

@HighEliteMajor said:

"So right that I could stop right now."

But you can't. Or won't.

Let it be duly noted. On this day, October 16, 2014, @HighEliteMajor's true identity is revealed. You are my wife.

Lol

I think the idea is to play Selden at power forward, but make the other team think he's the point guard so Selden can post up against the other team's point guard.

Otherwise I don't get Self's comment that Selden can post up. Surely he's not supposed to post up against a real big? Where's the MUA?

MUA: Selden should post up when he's guarded by a 2 and drive when he's guarded by a 4, not vice versa.

This is not the first preseason we've heard about non-bigs posting up: how often did we see it?

@Crimsonorblue22

"@drgnslayr based solely on late pm, Svi just wants to shoot! And miss!"

And if you watched him play Int'l tournament ball you'd say the same thing. Svi's first major improvement will come from Self disciplining him out of that habit!

Wait... let's go back to one of Self's earliest comments about this team.

He said he didn't want to have a true designated PG system. He said most (or all) his perimeter guys had a decent degree of ball handling skills and we were not going to have one guy designated to bring the ball up.

If that is true, even Wayne could get minutes at PG. And if he has limitations, the 2 and maybe even the 3 will rescue him to safely get the ball running in our half court.

I'm still not convinced Wayne should move to point... but I'm flexible to the idea and especially for situational purposes.

It seems like this is a way to give Brannen some minutes at the 2, but I'm not certain he has ball handling skills good enough to bail out Wayne on heavy full court pressure.

@jaybate-1.0

"foreign league"? What are you smoking?

Selden is projected to be a first round by ALL draft sites and many, if not most, have him as a lottery pick. Barring injury or a very bad season (highly unlikely), Selden will be playing in the NBA.

@HighEliteMajor

Well, @KULA is dead right. So right that I could stop right now.

**Wayne simply can't dribble the ball well enough to play the point. **

Spot on. Selden may play some PG but and Frankamp will at times play PG, but the the primary PGs in this team are Mason and Graham and absent a major meltdown by both of them, they will take the lion's share of time at the PG. No sense in "developing" Selden for next year because next year he will be plying his trade in the NBA.

By definition, a PG is a primary ball handler. That means that the PG has to go get the basketball whenever necessary. Alternatively, there are secondary ball handlers. They can play just about any position, but usually play on the wings. They don't always get the ball, but they can help a PG out and relieve some of the ball handling pressure and burden.

Wayne Selden is a secondary ball handler, just like Elijah Johnson was more naturally a secondary ball handler. EJ playing with Tyshawn, EJ was steady as a rock. EJ playing without a primary ball handler, EJ's flaws showed up tenfold.

As a PG, you have to find a proper balance between getting people involved, getting yourself going, and just generally orchestrating things. As a secondary ball handler, you don't have to worry about that stuff. You can get other people involved if the opportunity arises, but you can focus more on your shooting/ scoring and let the primary guy see to the task of orchestrating and distributing.

I think @JayHawkFanToo was spot on in saying that Selden and Frankamp are both more secondary PGs than primary PGs. Mason and Graham naturally handle the ball out front. They have (likely) been doing that since they first stepped on a basketball floor. Frankamp played a lot on the wing in high school, but has also played point from time to time, but as I have said before, his best value is as a shooter, not as a PG. That leaves Mason and Graham, unless Conner has significantly changed his game recently.

I think Mason and Graham are up to the task, although I am worried that once again our PGs will be our fifth or sixth best overall players.

I see a lot of comments about needing size at the PG spot due to the size of Kentucky. Are we going to play with Selden at the point against the preseason #1 team in the country? A guy who has never played point before and who is referenced in an article on the other KU site today as potentially even playing some 4 this year? I don't think so. I mean, it sounds great in theory but I just don't see any reason that CF/Mason/Graham can't bring up the ball against a team with size...including UK. They are going to have to learn how to do it some time.

Also, this is only one game and it is early in the year. Let's see what we can do with the guys who were recruited to play PG and will play PG 95% of the rest of the season. To me against this huge UK team I think speedy guards on offense will actually offset their huge size and then we should go zone on D. I know that wont' happen but if we are playing a team with this much size I think it is the thing to do.

@joeloveshawks

I totally agree with you. We will never be able to match UK with a strategy of playing big.

You said it right... beat them with speed and scrappy play. An aggressive short Frank may not be able to stop the high feed into the post, but he should know that so he should put heavy pressure on Aaron to keep him from being in a good floor position to feed the post. We should learn to play Kentucky's height as their disadvantage. If we think we should battle them with "big ball" we are just feeding into Cal's idea to intimidate opponents because of their height. Hey... doesn't matter if they are 12' tall, they still have to dribble the ball, handle the ball, pass and shoot. They only gain an advantage on 4% of the game, unless we use an inferior strategy and fight them for that 4% when we should be focused on dominating 96% of the game!

Not sure I agree with zoning Kentucky. We can apply more pressure with a M2M and our key is to get them out of their rhythm and deny them an easy feed into the post. That happens best with M2M. Self is a M2M kind of guy, and he should come to learn that x-axis basketball is the glove that fits around the hand of M2M defense.

The cool thing of this strategy is that we should be using this on every team, not just Kentucky! Now we can have one strategy that will be a winning strategy on every team!

Welcome to x-axis basketball!

@joeloveshawks

I agree. The taller PG has an advantage shooting the ball over or blocking the shot of the shorter PG. While dribbling the ball, the shorter PG has the advantage since he can keep the ball low and force the taller PG to play in a position that is not quite his natural position. If both PGs are going to do a lot of shooting, then the taller PG has an advantage, if they are not, then the height advantage is much smaller.

Except for the tournament where they uncorked some lucky shots, the twins were not particularly good shots. I would say go at them with short guards, move the ball a lot to tire them and draw fouls when defending the quicker Mason and Graham, A couple of quick fouls will cool them in a hurry...and then we worry about the other tall PGs :)

@JayHawkFanToo

Do you really think Wayne would get drafted with a 32% trey ball?

@justanotherfan

The word point guard descends in usage from the guard positioned out front at the top of the circle. Traditionally he is the guard that dribbles it up the floor, and initiates play from the top of the circle a few feet farther out. Why does the point guard bring it up the floor and initiate play from the top of the circle, or thereabouts? Because if another player does it, and if you want to start out with symmetry denying opponents the chance to overshift to either wing initially, another position player has to dribble it to top of the key, give it to a point guard standing there waiting, and then run to his wing or post position, which wastes time. Point guards bring it up start at the top of the circle, so that everyone else can get in a position as a scoring threat immediately.

And, of course, it takes almost zero dribbling talent to bring the ball up the court uncontested, so you don't need a great dribbler to bring the ball up the court uncontested. The only time one might need a great dribbler at point guard is when a great defensive guard is assigned to full court press a point guard. But even with a great dribbling point guard, it is a fools game to have him waste his energy budget bringing it up against a great defensive player. The smart play is to have him pass it to any other of his teammates that have a weak defender on them, or a defender that is not tasked with pressing, and let that teammate bring the ball up uncontested. When great defensive guards press point guards, the point guard should immediately pass the ball to which ever other teammate is guarded by a weak defender ill equipped to press a ball handler. For this reason, sometimes even centers are the right choice to bring the ball up the floor.

Bringing the ball up the floor, when not pressed takes no talent. I could still do it at my advanced age, even against Mario Chalmers, so long as Mario were set up in a half court defense. Because if Mario is not pressing me, I just dribble to within 10 feet of him and "PASS" the ball around or over him to a breaking player that is wide open because he has broken. And if no one were open, then someone would back door and I would pass over or around Mario to the back door breaker. No dribbling required, see?

And all this business of low or high dribbling only matters when you are being pressed by a a great defender. Frankly, even when one is being pressured by a great defender, but as Conner Frankamp proved last season, even when defenders apply great pressure, all you have to do, (and you can dribble high when you do it, even though Conner dribbles properly low) is turn your back and keep yourself between the ball and the defender, then reverse, then continue. It is so easy. And it only costs one a few seconds. And since Self Ball is 70 point take what they give us, it does not matter a whit if it takes one a few more seconds to get in position to make a wonderful pass, or not. Passing is how you beat teams, not dribbling. Dribbling is just how you reset a broken play, or make an isolation play. As Self will tell you, if you have to rely on isolation to win at basketball, you are in very big trouble.

So: rather than force your point guard to have to grind it out against a pressing defender, the logical thing to do is to dish it to any teammate with a weak defender and let them bring it up the court (assuming a m2m press; for a zone, of course, you pass the ball up the floor to players slashing into the seams and no dribbling is required).

Anyway, it is the height of foolishness to waste the energy budget of a good point guard in grinding out dribbling against a full court press. It is therefore not all that important for a point guard to be a great dribbler, contrary to conventional wisdom. This is why Self doesnt care that much about how great a dribbler a guy is. He plays 2-3 perimeter guys he calls combo guards that can always dribble it well enough to take the pressure off any other combo being pressured. It is far, far more important to be a good passer at point guard than a good dribbler. Passing is how one gets the ball to a guy to make an open look. If one brilliantly dribbles low to an open man to hand him the ball, then he is no longer an open man.

For these reasons, Conner Frankamp, on the offensive end of the floor, could be an exemplary point guard, whether or not he is a water bugging, dervish on the dribble. Same with Wayne Selden. Dribbling just is not that important. I know this is blaspheming to many that lover their dribbling dervish PGs, but it is true. All the great coaches have said that you can't beat anyone dribbling the ball. Great passing is the key to all offensive basketball. Dribbling to the rim only matters, when you have an MUA on a weak defender. A great defender can basically stop a great dribbler cold. Period. Dribbling is really only useful to get out of a jam you should have passed out of in the first place. Dribbling, in fact, is for suckers and for those that cannot pass. I happen to think Wayne Selden could be an exceptional passer. And I think that his height forces any small guard to have to play up and under him on defense and that means that it is easy as pie for Wayne to pass over such a defender; this is the essence of MUA at point guard, or at any other position.

Repeat after me: dribbling is for suckers. Wayne could be a fine passing point guard, if his knee has healed. :-)

@jaybate-1.0 Danny brought the ball up!

Wilt brought the ball up.

Many great and mediocre centers have been used to bring the ball up!

So have power forwards.

Basically anyone with soft hands can dribble the ball up uncontested.

@jaybate-1.0 but still, I like TT type points, Sherron etc

@jaybate-1.0 you editing me?

@Crimsonorblue22

I like Jennifer lawrence and would not have turned her down as a single man.

But she is not necessary to a good marriage.

Similarly it cannot hurt to have a great dribbling point guard. Great dribbling is another sexy tool in a point guard's quiver. I am just saying it is not essential.

@Crimsonorblue22

Accidentally, but backed out and hit the reply. I have been accidentally hitting edit on my cellphone because of how small the icons are. The nodebb guys need to address that for smart phone posting. But crimson, gotta say, I love your posts, you are weirdly kind and considerate! I always look forward to hearing from you.

REEDIT---HOWLING!

@jaybate-1.0 hate for my weird, change into another word!

@jaybate-1.0 if you have Wayne at one, who else you have in there? Vs Kentucky?

@Crimsonorblue22

Never intentionally by me. Can't speak for the mischievousness of others, however. And one thing that is nice about everyone being able to edit everyone is this: we all have deniability for everything we write. We get to say, "Hey, I sure as hell don't recall writing that; probably someone else edited me without my knowledge. " I have always looked on this feature of the site with some comfort for that reason.

Pretty sure our readers can read the "last edited by Jaybate" on the bottom! VERY Nice try!

Now, all joshing aside, how will our readers know which part of the above quote you wrote and which part jaybate wrote?

I believe this is in part what Baudrillard was trying to get at. :-)

@jaybate-1.0 Dribbling is for suckers? I am running out the door -- but while @jaybate-1.0 being so completely wrong is an odd occurrence, much like the Royals advancing to the World Series, it can happen. This be it. Can't let this one pass.

@nuleafjhawk That's funny ...

@jaybate-1.0

Do you really think Wayne would get drafted with a 32% trey ball?

Selden shot .336 for the year and .346from the 3 during the more difficult conference play. What makes you think that he would get worse instead of better?

@HighEliteMajor

Knew "dribbling is for suckers" was going to cause a ton of "change-the-way-we-think" pain. :-)

@JayHawkFanToo

I was posing a hypothetical that you still did not answer. But that's okay. I don't believe Wayne would get drafted at 30% from trey. I believe the draft rankings are based on the assumption that he WILL get better at the trey this season, because he will not be playing on a bum wheel.

So: I don't think he will get worse, but...

Bill said he doesn't care if Wayne only shoots 30% from trey; that tells me Bill is not exactly expecting Wayne to light up the nets at 40% from outside this season.

Next, I read that Bill is planning on playing Wayne (and Oubre) at 4, and thinking Wayne is the better prospect at the 4. Maybe Wayne will be a stretch 4 and pot a lot of treys on step outs? Maybe, but stretch is the operant word.

I just don't think Wayne is a credible Pro 2 with a 30% college trey.

And unless he gets to 38% from trey, I think he has a real tough go in the draft. Remember, Travis shot 42% and didn't get a sniff.

Post Script: I suspect that the reason Wayne will be getting looks at the 4 has to do with what I noticed in some of the summer feeds of his play since 'recovering' from the injury. He doesn't seem to be able to no step jump very well. That means the explosiveness has not fully restored. That means he will have to convert to a shot with less elevation. That means you may want him to spend less time on the perimeter. And more time at the high post. Where his mobility is a problem for bigs, and helps him create space to get his J off from a lower elevation.

@jaybate-1.0

No team in its right mind would draft Selden to play PF or even SF; Wayne is natural SG and that is where he would play in the NBA. It really does not make any difference what position a player plays in college, the position that he will play in the NBA is dictated by his build and talent and Selden is the stereotype 2. Frankamp is a better 3 point shooter than Selden or Releford and the chances that he will play in the NBA are extremely small; he is not fast/athletic enough to play PG even in college and not big enough to play SG .

Much like Ellis, Releford is what the NBA calls tweeners, that is players that are in-between two position and typically play one in college but cannot play their more natural position in the pros and cannot make it to the league. Ellis has the mentality and moves of a PF but he just does not have the build and power to play PF in the NBA, and the SF is his more natural position and the one he would play in the NBA, provided he can develop a consistent outside shot and can increase his lateral speed to guard the athletic NBA SFs. Same thing with Chalmers, he was a turnover machine in college when he tried to play PG and was switched to SG, but to play in the NBA he had to learn to play PG because that is his more natural position; it did help that he was good 3-point shooter. By the way, Norris Cole is now the starting PG at Miami and Chalmers is coming off the bench.

As I said, Selden is already a 35% 3 point shooter and he will only get better; he will play SG in the NBA, regardless of what he plays at KU. Keep in mind that in college, players are drafted based on talent/potential and coaches will take the highest ranked player even if they have other players at the same position, and later they will get shuffled to fill team needs. If the team needs a SF and none is available, then the coach will move either a SG or a PF to that position. In the NBA, on the other hand, players are drafted or acquired at any time to fill specific needs; if a SF is needed the team will either draft one or trade for one and seldom play a player outside his natural position...they can do this because they can draft/trade/buy players at any time; college teams cannot.

Specifically answering your question: Selden 3 point average will improve this season and he will get drafted and play SG in the NBA.

@jaybate-1.0 Love the out of the box post. I was thinking Swee (or should we drop all the formalities, and just start calling him Chandler?), with some intense work, would look "Swee"t at the 2, towering over every opponent. I am sure we will see Wayne at pg on occasion, though it certainly won't be permanent. On another note, I have tried to say Svi's name, and can't do without developing a mini- lisp, so I will be referring to him as Swee. Now, if he decides to pay us a visit, and objects to my liberal pronunciation, then I will forced to bite the bullet, and "say and spray". Until then, he's Swee to me.

@KUSTEVE Svi

@Crimsonorblue22 he,he,he....

@jaybate-1.0

"Do you really think Wayne would get drafted with a 32% trey ball?"

I think we all admit he needs to increase his % to increase his draft stock.

Am I the only one that thinks he'll bump his trey % up this year? He played hurt last year and I've never known a player who played hurt and shot a decent % from trey.

Maybe CS is playing poker and tossing out bluff verbiage... but if he is not and he intends to give Wayne some minutes at the 4 then we should read between the lines to know that Wayne is back to 100% health, because there is no way he gets minutes at the 4 on a bum leg.

@JayHawkFanToo

"Much like Ellis, Releford is what the NBA calls tweeners"

I agree Releford is a tweener... but I see Perry as a clear 3 in the league (size wise). No way is he a 4 or even close. Perry should start thinking of what he will need to be at the next level now, while he has time to improve his outside game and penetration capabilities.

I have pondered how I might respond to @jaybate-1.0's suggestion that ball handling is really not that important -- "dribbling is for suckers" was the soon to be infamous quote.

I will look at this from an opposing coach's perspective. Wayne Selden is Kansas' point guard. I'm coaching the opposing team.

First, I put my quickest guard on Selden. I don't worry about supposed size disadvantage. Self doesn't post up his point guards. I instruct my quick defender to make Selden's life hell. Pick him up every and anywhere. Why? Because he's a plodder with the ball, and his handles are loose. I suggest a few focus points. When Wayne moves to his right, front him and turn him. Left hand is weaker. This applies to many PGs, but Wayne's left hand is much more vulnerable because his overall skill level is lower dribbling the ball. Thus his left hand is much weaker than the average PG's off hand. Next, because he is a poor dribbler, his ability to protect the ball is an issue -- the ability to go behind his back or between his legs to change directions is limited. This is critical. Use of those two moves, and in combination, can define point guards at this level. Therefore, as he changes direction, right to left, look for the tip steal. He'll likely move the ball in front of his body as the basic cross over is all he can reliably do. Finally, again because his ability to go behind back/between legs is limited, be ready for Selden to turn his back. This pivot move is common, and useful periodically, but is evidence of weakness when other options are unavailable. When he is dribbling right handed and turns, he'll move the ball to his left hand .. that's the tip steal opportunity. Because of the quickness advantage, we'll have time to recover.

Second, because Selden's passing ability in pressure situations is not stellar, as demonstrated by last year's balls in the front row, we'll select certain opportunities to flash trap Selden. Selden can't dribble to beat the trap anywhere on the court, and he's not quick enough to bolt with the ball when he sees it. One time in particular where he'll be very vulnerable is on the wing in the back court after a missed basket. Kansas likes to pass to the free throw line extended after the board. We'll be ready. Poor ball handlers are susceptible to panicking when when the flow is going down the court, backs to the point guard. Guys aren't coming to the ball. But we'll look for trap opportunities everywhere.

Third, because of his poor ball handling and lack of PG experience, Selden will be less likely to be able to play and not think. Offense is much about rhythm. We want to destroy rhythm and make Kansas get deep in the shot clock. Therefore, we'll be attentive to taking away the entry pass to start the offense. This can apply even on resets deeper in the shot clock. Make Selden do something with the ball. If they back cut, let's see him make that pass with a dude in his face. We can over commit and get the offense out of rhythm. With a true point guard, we can't do that .. we have to worry about being broken down off the dribble, and then the ball delivered off the dribble. That is, the PG can simply blow by to the hoop and create. We have never seen Selden do this. Because we have our quickest guy guarding Selden, this is effectively eliminated. We aren't threatened off the dribble, which changes the dynamic.

Fourth, I press with different looks, trap spots, and variations -- alternatively to having my defender pressure Selden one on one. We mix it up. Most likely, my team has less talent than Kansas. I need a game changer. So we press. Having a poor ball handler makes my job easier. It also creates more risk for Kansas. Coach Self explained why he doesn't press. He said that a team with good ball handlers wants to be pressed. That's because they can break the press. What we saw in 2013-14 with Kansas, even with one ball handler on the court (Tharpe), teams made KU slow to a crawl by employing a press. KU had to pass, spot to spot. Now, KU has Selden at PG. He was KU's worst guard against the press last season.

Dribbling is for suckers .. uh, no. This game is dictated by ball handling. Ball handling opens a world of possibilities to every player possessing the skill. Ball handling is the one singular skill that a team cannot survive without. And a team that discounts its value is destined for failure.

It is exactly why coach Self has noted that we need more "ball handling and play making." Ball handling and play making go hand in hand, but you can have the former without the latter ... but rarely can you have the latter without the former. The ball handling puts you in the position to make plays. Selden's strengths are not found in either category. He is, as Self said, a "big wing." Can we simply permit Selden to be the biggest and baddest big wing he can be? I'm good with that.

@HighEliteMajor

So nice to read. Thank you!

HEM.... please... please... please... come on board as a Professor in teaching "X-axis Fundamentals 101?"

You have micro-processed a perfect example for how all the Davids can slay the Goliaths.

I wish you and I could sit in a film room looking at UK footage and scout a victory plan for our game. They've got more holes in their game than a hunk of Swiss cheese... but many already feel defeated because of their height.

I have to hand it to Cal, since he can't out-coach anyone he'll just let teams out-coach themselves.

One good ball handler ends any potential threat from a press, from traps (also in the half court), and opens up attacking the rim, either to finish or to feed a big.

I've never been totally impressed with our big national stat of how many of our baskets come from an assist. It is nice to have a high number but when it is too high it indicates a lack of ability to drive the ball. We'll never win another NC by just having a zillion team assists. Standing around, passing quickly and looking for openings isn't a bad strategy until it is the only thing you can do! Over recent years, it is the only thing we can do, and when we get into March, teams are playing their best and have scouted us, and they know how to shift off our passes and limit openings.

I really dislike our offense when it goes flat, and we have 3 guards standing still on the perimeter, passing it back and fourth... quicker each time thinking the defense won't quite make it back into position next time. Then, with 5 seconds left on the shot clock we make a desperate attempt at a shot.

If we want to take a lesson on team offense we should be watching the Spurs playoff games this past season. They moved the ball quickly, but not back and forth on a half circle. They had players cutting, screening, pick and rolls... and often they would take advantage of match-ups.

I'd have to say that they ran the best team offense I have ever watched in the NBA. They definitely do not have the most talent of any team to play, but the way they played, they could have beat probably any past NBA team.

I know this is college ball, and young guys will only execute to a certain level. But come on... we should be able to do a lot more on offense than what we've been showing the last few years. The rigidity has been horrible. We don't ever even look like we are having fun out there. The guys look more relieved than having fun when we do execute.

The way to utilize Wayne is to move him around in a game and look for match-ups he can exploit. If he stays healthy this year he should be able to exploit just about anyone. Invite teams to bring their zones... those are perfect for this scenario because Wayne can pick who he wants to attack just by hanging out in that player's zone area. One super killer offensive player can destroy zones all by himself. This is college ball, not pro, so teams won't know how to fix the situation when Wayne explodes for 30+. I can see him having some big number games a lot more than I can see Perry doing it.

This could be a team where we have a hard time finding scorers.

I believe I'd make Wayne our #1 "go to" guy.

@HighEliteMajor

Spot on. I have been saying all along that to get to the next level you need an elite PG; I even started a thread about bigs and smalls and in my opinion, the PG was the key. A PG that cannot dribble is by definition not a PG but a SG or even a SF. To be an elite PG, a player must be a superior dribbler as well, as you so eloquently outlined in your post.

@jaybate-1.0 I'm sure if you could sit in on practice and see what happens day after day and put Frank and Conner and Devonte and Wayne through basic ball handling skills tests, you'd find the first three far superior to the last.

And the fact that Self does not give Devonte a clear edge means...absolutely nothing at this point. What, are you reading cat entrails now?

And Wayne can't be developed into a point guard because he's only going to be here one more year. You can't "develop" ball handling skills and quickness into a player in one year.

@jaybate-1.0 lol, Dribbling is for suckers!
WHAT are you smoking, Jaybate?
Okay, I get it--you're just trolling for a response. You got me. Touche!

@ everyone

Dribbling to win REALLY IS for suckers. Dribbling to get open is the hardest way to get open and the easiest way to get stopped. Dribbling is always the second option to passing for a reason. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves for getting sucked into the dribbling versus passing debate on the side of dribbling.

More good passing teams than good dribbling teams win rings.

Teams can win rings without above average dribbling, but not without above average passing.

Wooden proved with 6-4, not-very-athletic, but sharp-passing Greg Lee at point guard that you can win a ring with an average dribbler that dribbles high, if he can pass well! At 6-4, Lee could feed Walton and Wilkes over the top and on cuts. Passing, not dribbling is the key.

Average dribbling is all any good passing team needs.

Average dribbling means good enough to methodically get the ball into position for all the different kinds of passes that winning teams need to make, while protecting from strips.

Any press can be beaten by average dribblers that are good passers. Period.

I know this is one of those old lessons that has to be dusted off every few years in the age of hype, and retaught, especially when dribble penetration is hyped as the way to beat the new officiating. But dribbling to win always over time is exposed to be the fool's gold approach to playing winning basketball.

Phog would tell you.

Iba would tell you.

Wooden would tell you.

Knight would tell you.

K would tell you.

Roy would tell you.

Self would tell you.

Putting the ball on the deck is the HARD way.

It always looks sexy and heroic, because its one guy doing the work while the other four guys stand with thumbs where the sun don't shine waiting for a dish.

Cal uses the dribble drive offense. He can't win diddledy squat unless he has twice the talent of those he plays.

Self tried building around dribble penetration with Tyshawn and got a long way, because Tyshawn was freakishly fast, Self and Joe D were great at masking and breaking down defensive tendencies of opponents, and Self had the mandatory three extraordinary players in TT, TRob and Withey, but he came up short.

Bo Ryan relied on dribble drive penetration enabled by great trey shooting and came up short.

Kevin Ollie foundationed on dribble drive penetration with Shabazz
and won. So big deal. The exception proves the rule.

I concede absolutely that we are in a period when coaches have forgotten the cardinal rule that passing beats dribbling and are trying to win with the dribble drive, but it ain't working generally.

Self has produced the highest winning percentage of all coaches not being asymmetrically stacked by the PetroShoeCos (i.e., Cal) the last decade and he has done it almost entirely with average dribbling combos and passing.

Good passing teams beat good dribbling team more often than not.

Dribbling is for suckers. :-)

@jaybate-1.0

Allen Iverson called and he said you are nuts...and he still thinks practice is overrated. :)

[Iverson crosses over Jordan...](

@JayHawkFanToo

Thanks, with Allen Iverson you have just made my case for me definitively.

He was as good as they come at scoring off the dribble. Inside. Outside. In between. AI proved you don't need height to create enough space with a dribble to score huge numbers of points in college and pro.

Ah, but even LB could not figure out a way get him to win a ring with a team foundationed on AI's dribble. His only trip to the Finals they got beat handily.

AI, the no-ring-ever in college or pro wonder really could never find a way to "getter done" with or without talented teams, and with or without great coaching, at the college, or pro level.

Dribbling is for suckers.

Dribbling is not for winners.

Cousy could dribble circles around anyone. But Auerbach taught him that great passing was the key to winning.

The guy was such a piece of work that he could only muster a bronze in the Olympics playing for USA! OMG! That is like missing Mt. Everest with a smart bomb!

Well, wait a second, AI was gold at FIBA. Ooooh wow!!!!

Dribbling is for suckers!

@jaybate-1.0

Thanks, with Allen Iverson you have just made my case for me definitively.

Only in your mind Jaybate, only in your mind...

@JayHawkFanToo

Jesus, are you one of those don't confuse me with the facts types, or what? :-)

I've never had such an easy case to make, made for me. Thanks.

@jaybate-1.0

Like I said, only in your mind Jaybate, only in your mind...

Now Backfill...

@globaljaybird

Now, that is funny!!!

Back Fill here.

And here.

And here.

And then here too.

and don't forget here.

Howling!

Dribbling is for suckers.

And here.

Dribbling is for suckers = Jumping the shark.

When you find yourself in a hole ...stop digging. - Will Rogers

@HighEliteMajor

If I must be taken to task, let it be by you. :-)

But...

Your first, second, third and fourth clauses depend on an assumption I shall forthwith knocketh out from under thee.

Wayne Selden played most of his freshman season on a knee injury.

Let me see here...hmmm...how shall I put it?

It is very difficult for most freshman, even OADs, to adjust to the speed and physicality of the D1 game, even, when they are, like, say, Andrew Wiggins, playing without injury.

Next, healthy players that you suggest should be able to start and or compete for starting at PG for KU, like, say, Frank Mason, could not stay on the floor at PG last season, against an often bumbling incompetent like Naa Tharpe, or at the 2 last season, when Selden needed a blow, as many total minutes as Wayne Selden stayed on the floor with one good knee.

And you have no problems with arguing that Devonte might well be able to play a lot of minutes at PG as a freshman, when everyone would agree that he is not nearly the athlete that Wayne Selden is, when Wayne is healthy. I don't follow this logical at all. Devonte will have to go through adjusting to D1 speeds and violence at 6-2 and a haricot vert svelte 175, and somehow he will magically be able to necessarily be better than Wayne Selden?

Finally, and this is where the knocking out of the assumption that Selden cannot play PG commences in earnest swiftness, Wayne Selden is reputedly entirely healthy and recovered this season. Despite my personal concerns that his explosiveness may not have been restored. Coach Self thinks his explosiveness has returned. Coach Self thinks Wayne is such a superb basketball player that he plans to play Wayne at the 1, 2, 3 and 4 positions. Now notice that Self uses the numeral 1. :-) 1 typically refers to the point guard, does it not? Thus we can begin by concluding that Coach Self categorically disagrees with your assumption that Wayne Selden could not possibly play point guard for the four clauses you posited above.

But more important than Self thinking Wayne can play some PG, is the fact that he apparently thinks this because Wayne is now healthy.

I have had both ankle and knee injuries during my too short playing days in basketball. And I recall through this addled old brain of mine that particularly a knee injury makes it tough to dribble and cut, and dribble and pass, and dribble and get by opponents. And being unable to move quickly and surely on a bum wheel often restricts the kinds of passes one can make in any given situation, because one cannot get into a proper place on the court to make the proper pass.

Another thing about knee and ankle issues is that they tend to reduce one to just trying to survive during the season rather than spend a lot of time focused on being able to put in the kind of work necessary to really get better at things like dribbling, passing, guarding and jump shooting. My guess, and it is ONLY a reasonable guess, is that the Wayne Selden you saw that lead you to the strikingly pessimistic conclusion about Wayne's ability to handle the ball was biased to far to the negative early by Wayne's freshman struggle to adapt to D1 speeds, followed by Wayne's knee injury that spanned most of the season. As a result, I have a wild and crazy hunch that Wayne is now sharply better at everything you doubt about him, and that he will continue to rapidly improve in these regards and others if Self tasks him with doing so.

But, of course, I could be entirely wrong about all of this.

Wayne Selden could be an athlete that is unaffected by knee injury and lacks entirely the getting better gene when it comes to dribbling and passing.

But then you could be wrong, too.

Thank heavens we have the reality of seasons to lift us up out of these mysteries. :-)

(P.S.: Seriously, you know I respect your judgement and because it is you disagreeing with me I will doubt myself even more than usual.)

My hunch is that Wayne's good health is going to allow him to resolve all four issues you raise

@jaybate-1.0 I won't say he cannot, but last year post conf when he did try to drive to the rack, his head was down & blindly headed into the trees, often with unfavorable results. Once conf began he pretty much stopped trying. In fact more often than not, it seemed the entire team stood back & waited for Wigs & Embid to take over. After Joel was injured it became even more obvious. JMO

@jaybate-1.0 har·i·cot vert noun \ˌär-ē-kō-ˈver\
plural har·i·cots verts also haricot verts

Definition of HARICOT VERT

: a thin green bean

@Crimsonorblue22

1ad·dle adjective \ˈa-dəl\

Definition of ADDLE

1
of an egg : rotten
2
: confused

@Crimsonorblue22 Go girl !!

@globaljaybird

Here again, I argue that what you note is not so much an indication of his structural inabilities to learn the point guard role, as early struggles with D1 speeds, and very shortly knee injury limiting his capabilities to adapt, perform well, and to get better.

@globaljaybird

HOWLING!

@ et al

Alright, alright, I am just not as young as I used to be.

I have been trying to play n-dimensional ping pong posting this morning and, as I used to do so effortlessly before the old age crap caught up with me, and I am already tired. What a weeny I have become.

Nevertheless, I believe this old coot has done his duty to get community blood pumping as the great evil of college basketball--UK--sails towards us like a bunch of Yamatos and Akagis, while Chester Self and Ray Roberts and Bull Howard and Frank Townsend make a target of part of their fleet and move their OAD and TAD carriers off to an unexpected angle and lay down smoke and misleading SigInt to prepare for sailing into harm's way.

Over and out for now.

"Dribbling is for slobbers!"

My 14-month old is an excellent dribbler... right off his chin!

He can also dribble a mini KU ball pretty well on a mini table.

I don't think he is ready to battle Kentucky this early in the season, but give him another couple of years.

@jaybate-1.0 You said, "But then you could be wrong, too." I'm shocked. I know @Crimsonorblue22 is too. I must retreat. The last word is yours. Good discussion all the way around.

@drgnslayr I had hours and hours of fun and memories with mine when they were young with a little breakawy kids hoop in our dining room (converted to a play room). Some of the best fun were games of horse, double banks off the wall and ceiling. Wish they were young again .. enjoy every minute.

@drgnslayr so slayer, did you grow any haricot verts in your garden this year? I did! How did I do Jaybate?

@Crimsonorblue22

You tended a garden. If you shared your produce wth even one person you were not related to, then you are a good person deserving of going to heaven in my eyes.

Vaya con dios.

@jaybate-1.0 I did share, but believe I need to do more than that!!

@Crimsonorblue22

That is really quite enough. Share twice and you will so stand out in heaven that you will be amazed, or so my dead father tells me from time to time.

@jaybate-1.0 my grandma would be turning over in her grave knowing I canned salsa. I actually gave 2 jars away this week.

@Crimsonorblue22

Sleep well then. Two more next week and you will approach the modern equivalent of sainthood.

@jaybate-1.0 to hard of work to give all away. I'm Stuck then!

@Crimsonorblue22

Your call.

Free will.