🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Give applause to Zenger for going beyond his KSU roots and wanting better than the KSU/Snyder 'model'. He has spent time outside of KS, and no doubt realized KSU's lack of national recognition. And KU is a royalty program in basketball...nationally relevant. He could have hired Clint who'd have done a slow-build approach, but no, he hired Beaty, who had recruiting success at an SEC program. He chose to try to bring a better athlete and performance to KU than Snyder does to KSU. Snyder is a developer not a recruiter. His no-star, 2star, walkon kids routinely get beat by the big boys. Not because of coaching...but because of recruiting.

Its about damn time we took a better example than KState for our football aspirations.

And I am not trying to insult any KSU people, or any "house-divided" spouses here in KS...I just want wide open possibilities for KU football. Watch what KSU goes thru when Snyder quits, they will lose patience, then start talking about better recruits, as those kids can contribute quicker...

So, I dont know if Beaty can get it done, or how long KU AD will give him, but I am thankful Zenger looked to an SEC example of success, instead of the plateaued model at KSU.

RCJH

Hmmm. I get where you're coming from. I'm just not sure I agree. Snyder's no-star, 2star, walkon kids have won more games the past 3 or 4 years than any other Big 12 team.

You have to lead a moving target, so I agree with @ralster in principle, but as @nuleafjhawk wonders, i wonder if Beaty were a lead?

It comes down to his coaching skill. He is the exact profile of the right KU candidate if he knows how to make the organizational and game calls to go along with his Texas recruiting experience.

The problems are: a.) that there were some mixed early messages about his limited offensive coordinatorator experience; and b.) that Zenger's record so far on judgements has been shaky enough to make one doubt his ability to judge unproven talent.

If Zenger had picked young Roy Williams for basketball coach, I would have been worried.

Zenger is in a job where you are supposed to be able to make good choices most of the time. Maybe he makes lots of good ones we don't see. But the ones we do see have not inspired confidence.

Where my idea is coming from is looking at the top of the BigXII over the last several years. Sure, Brile's Baylor is on fire lately, and TCU is a solid job by Patterson, but if you look over time...I look at OU and Texas. That's who I want KU to be competetive with.

Does it bother people that our 2008 OrangeBowl season has an asterisk by it in many of our minds because of the way the schedule cycle fell with the Big12 "south" teams?

This post is simply about asking the bigger question, that it seems Zenger is doing: what does OU or TX or Alabama have that Kansas doesnt have? LSU, OhioState, Oregon...

Again the sad fact for those wearing PurplePuritan-blinders: nobody cares about KState outside of KS. Tired of their fans, and simply want KU's football to be in natl contention like KU basketball is. There's much better examples to use than Snyder.

Again, stated differently: If Self can bring 4 & 5 star kids to KU ("kansas"), and Oklahoma, Nebraska, and even Missouri can get ranked recruits...then why wouldnt ftball recruits come to KS? This is where Snyder is "plateaued", going for his no-namers...ok, you keep doing that & pray for a down year by OU or TX so you can have a chance to beat them. I'd like a KU program engineered to compete yearly. It wont happen overnight. I dont think Self or Stoops or Saban will cornerstone their program on walk-ons & no star guys. Of course there's rare under-radar types out there like Ron Baker in bball or KU's own Ben Heeney, but thats rare. Rankings do matter.

Was anybody else shocked & disappointed as a kansan to see Colin Klein on the KSU sideline & not in the NFL? I thought he was Snyder's golden boy? The next Tebow...

It also stung to watch KSU's keystoneKops performance vs Auburn, in what should have been an easy win. Go check Snyder's bowl game success (W/L), and you see exactly how far his system design plateaus out in its success level--hardly ever beats "name" programs.. What was that phrase by Switzer (which Stoops has continued) about the Jimmies & the Joes?

And not to pick on OU, but I know some Sooner alums...they are very serious about their Mens Basketball with high $$ facility upgrades, Kruger, and bringing a better athlete (like they do in football). They asked the simple question, why cant we build in bball what we have in ftball, and are proceeding decently on their plan. They beat Bill Self last season. They are using the appropriate yardstick. Its not good enough for OU to simply "beat OkState".

@ralster 'Was anybody else shocked & disappointed as a kansan to see Colin Klein on the KSU sideline & not in the NFL? I thought he was Snyder's golden boy? The next Tebow..."

No not really. Klein 's skill level was clearly that of a formidable college player & not of an NFL type. However, I am encouraged by watching a Jordy Nelson compete with the Packers at the game's highest level, who by the way is a Manhattan native & HS recruit of Snyder. When Bill assesses a recruit he does so with many aspects of the process in mind. Nelson was recruited as a DB but was switched to wide receiver by Snyder & his staff. Surely talent, desire & potential are key ingredients, but character & personality are heavily involved in the equation. I can sit here bag on KSU all day about only beating the Okies & their Adrian Peterson's in a down year, and I cannot speak for his many assistants involved in the process either, but Snyder tries to do things the right way & I've great respect for him as an educator, coach, and as a "lead by example" person. Personally I would be thrilled to have a high quality mentor as Bill Snyder to lead a FB program at Kansas & believe many others would also, given the quality thereof & the ethics he maintains in his profession. Can't say I would be really excited or proud to win an Orange bowl & then a few years later have my Championship QB giving the finger to some fan in the stands or decking his fiancé' on camera in an elevator. Oft times there is a tradeoff for success & Bill has not seemed to be willing to cross that threshold just to win. And though these are just my opinions, they are valid to many who care about the bigger picture as much if not more , than the here & now generation of instant gratification.

@globaljaybird and @ralster

Though I would like KU to get out of football on the principle of head injur avoidance, if one must have the sport, we must build with the goal of attaining the high ground in both of your arguments. The only constraint is that we not let football wa the basketball dog, once we get it on its feet, as it does at every other school it achieves prominence.

I have said for years that the Snyder model is not the way to sustained success because you aren't winning on the national stage.

Since starting at KSU, Snyder (going into this season) was 23-43 against ranked opponents. That's 20 games under .500. Against the top conference teams (OU, Texas, Nebraska, Colorado) Snyder's record is a combined 25-41. Against KU and Iowa State Snyder is a combined 38-8. His whole record is built on beating bad teams. 78-22 in non conference, but just 109-71-1 in league. He has been able to schedule 3-4 wins a year in non-con, which allows him to play slightly above .500 in league and put together lots of 8 and 9 win seasons.

For such a great coach, he's just 7-8 in bowls. That's not elite. Mack Brown was 13-8 in bowls and he has never been regarded as a coaching genius.

KU should aim higher. I hope Beaty is that guy.

@justanotherfan Bill Snyder's wisdom, abilities & successes in leading young men reach far beyond statistics & wins. Even though no mortal is completely beyond reproach, I am not sure that KU, or any other school could aim any higher than the convictions, morals, & ethics of Bill Snyder with validity. But if only winning at the highest level is important there are plenty of targets readily available & I might only add to be cautious & mindful in what you wish for.

It is hard to argue with the success Snyder has had. He turned what was called the worst football program in America into a program that is competitive year in and year out and he has done it the right way. in 1989, Sports Illustrated published an article about Kansas State football entitled "Futility U," which labeled the school "America's most hapless team." In his 23 years as HC at KSU he has taken the team to 16 Bowls and it was eligible a couple of other years but there were not enough bowls back them; keep in mind that his first Bowl was on his fifth year as HC and once he had laid the foundation for the program

Before we aspire to be Alabama or Florida or USC or Ohio State, let's try to be program, with a winning season, for a change, and go from there. I know @ralster does not feel the Snyder model is the model we should follow and my question is...how have the other models worked for KU so far? Other than a couple of decent years under Mangino, the programs has been an abysmal failure. Let's keep in mind that those decent couple of year under Mangino are the baseline at KSU. Would I trade the KU program of the last 25 years for KSU's program of the same period? Absolutely.

This is from his profile

Snyder's first tenure at Kansas State is still considered one of the most successful rebuilding projects in collegiate history. In recognition of his rebuilding work, Hall of Fame football coach Barry Switzer once stated, "He's not the coach of the year, he's not the coach of the decade, he's the coach of the century."

I sincerely hope that Beaty can be as successful at KU as Snyder has been at KSU.

Snyder is a great coach, nobody can argue that. However Ralster has a valid point. Look what happened when Snyder left the first time? The wildcats fell down the ladder of respectability like a knife through hot butter.

You don't want a one and done coach. As fans and Alumni you want sustained success. You want a program that keeps getting the recruits long after the HC has retired, moved on, or has been fired.

In some ways KU's success on the hardwood does affect the football program. Yet it doesn't have to be that way, or should I say it could be used as a spring board for the boys that play on the grid iron. There is no reason KU shouldn't be a respected program in the game of football. Even with all Kstates recent success in football, they are still not a household name like KU.

Which leads me to my next tidbit. If KU fans were as fanatical about football as they are about basketball, maybe just maybe we can turn this thing around. Remember high profile recruits don't want to play in half or less than half full stadiums. Just this year KU damn near knocked off one of the best football teams in the country. (panel my ass) Yet nobody seen it. Just saying.

@ralster I generally agree with your posts but not this one. I would take a Bill Snyder clone in a heartbeat. I don't care if the rest of the country disrespects KSU ( and I'm not sure they do). We Kansans live in fly-over country and will never get much traction with the East and West Coast media. What is important to fans is having a competitive team year in and year out, whether with five star recruits or not. By being competitive, fans have some thing to hope for and look forward to.

Further, for Bill Snyder to do it consistently (and twice, at his age) with what you deem lesser talents is doubly impressive. And he runs a clean program as far as I know. So for sure, I would love another Bill Snyder.

I do agree that KSU will have a hard time replacing him but that too is a measure of his accomplishments. There aren't a lot of interchangeable, master-level, head coach capable prospects out there.

Finally, although this may not be popular on the site, I think you give KU basketball a little too much credit. The last three KU basketball coaches have done a great job, no doubt. KU plays at almost the highest levels most of the time. But so does KSU in football. The game last Saturday was of national importance, maybe on the level of the elite eight (which would get the winner into the Final Four?) And KSU has played at that level a lot.

KU has had success but also some poor results. I'm thinking of the killer B's, for example or not getting out of the first weekend of NCAA Tournament play. So I would say that KSU football is equivalent to KU basketball IMHO.

Sorry careful.

At best you are comparing these programs in a snapshot?

As a program, KSU football is NOTHING historically. KU bBall isRoyalty.

In Snyder years KSU has success in some bowl games and nice winning records. Zero ncaa titles (only in the hunt once and disappeared early) and what-maybe one conference title? I am too lazy to check the KSU conference titles-maybe one and or a tie.

KU bBall 2008 NCAA title, championship game and 10 big12 titles in a row?

How can you compare these two???

@Careful-you Just in my life time KU went from Larry Brown, to Roy Williams. No drop off and a case can be made it's was better. Then it went from Roy Williams to HCBS. No drop off and a case can be made it's better. And when HCBS retires or moves onto the NBA the next coach will mostly likely be as good or better. Now is that coaching or a program? Look at the Texas football program. They have sucked for the last 3 or 4 years, yet every year the have one of the best recruiting classes in the country. Now why is that? Because they are Texas? Of course they are. My point. Kids go to Texas not because it's the head coach but because it's Texas.

I don't think anybody would argue the Snyder is a fine and even great coach. Yet when he retires or dies where will Kstate be? We already had a taste of what would happen to the Wildcat football program when Snyder isn't there. It started to fall into the lower tier quite quickly. So will recruits continue to look at Kstate after Snyder fades off into the sunset? Just Saying.

@DoubleDD

The KSU football program did not get worse just because Snyder left, it went down because Prince was a completely incompetent coach that was way over his head, much like Gill at KU. When it is time for Snyder to retire, if KSU can find a good coach, there is no reason why KSU cannot maintain the current level.

@JayHawkFanToo Could've of should've but didn't. Just because Kstate is winning games these days doesn't mean they can just plug in another coach and not miss a beat.

What Snyder has done at Kstate I'm not sure can be duplicated. Remember Kstate isn't exactly flushed with great talent. It's one thing for lets say a Texas or Oklahoma to have a bad hire. They'll still be flushed with talent. Not so much with Kstate. Remember this every coach that has a losing record is going to be a bad hire.

So really the next HC at Kstate does need to be a Snyder clone. Someone one that recruits Jucos heavily and can find some diamonds in the rough every couple years. No reason for KU football to build a program like this. That when the HC is gone so is the program.

@DoubleDD

You wrote:

Could've of should've but didn't. Just because Kstate is winning games these days doesn't mean they can just plug in another coach and not miss a beat.

I did not mentioned any of those words: in fact I said quite the opposite. KSU tried to plug in an incompetent coach and the program sank.

What I said was " if KSU can find a good coach, there is no reason why KSU cannot maintain the current level." which I maintain is true. Maybe our definition of what constitutes a good coach is different: Prince was not a good coach any more than Gill was. With the current state of the program. KSU should be able to attract quality coaches and not unknowns trying to make a name for themselves.

@JayhawkRock78 You make a fair point. I am not trying to do a point by point comparison of KSU football to KU basketball for the last 100 years. And I also admit that KU basketball is considered royalty by the basketball world AND that 10 big 12 titles in a row is a monumental achievement.

Still I would not turn away from a Bill Snyder clone if I was going to get a football team similar to the last 20 years at KSU, which I think was the point of the original post. And, if after 20 years of success, then the the program struggles (as we seem to think KSU will), well so be it. I'm still not turning down 20 good years.

I was reading the fb all conference team honors, was really surprised to see quite a few ks kids on the lists. Ksu has really made that a priority. It sounds like that's a high priority for coach Beatty, also.

@JayhawkRock78 Most times we agree on many things but this time I will raise issue with your thoughts.The only reason I am replying to your response to @careful you is that personally, my aspirations for KU FB are not those of national prominence, total wins & losses, or from a mere snapshot of what one might say is a very limited tenure of limited success. My ambitions are more of a vision. When Mr. Snyder is gone from KSU FB he will leave a legacy quite definitive of his own self, & not only from a standard of victories & defeats.

I would be quite honored to have success at a level of coach Snyder if the one who leads our program is plain & simple a man a Christian convictions, moral considerations, & a man of ethical professional values.

That legacy will be something like this. Someday many people from the entire State of Kansas will be honored to say that Mr. Snyder was a great leader of young men from our homeland. He did things the right way, was successful at the highest level within his abilities, and was one who gained not only the confidence of those who followed, but those who aspired & admired as well..

I do understand that he is an "old timer, 70 + years old now, but I am also quite enamored in the fact that he is a genuine man of faith, that so few are willing to acknowledge in this present day. He walks it & talks it & so few will, albeit for political correctness or for whatever reason, in this age. I have listened to his testimony as he wept, & as God is my savior, I do not believe it was false. His daughter was once paralyzed & now she walks. It is his belief & also mine & many others that this was a gift of God only to be awarded by faith & grace, and in any day, month, or year, I would be humbled to have he or a man of his faith leading young men at the University of Kansas to that level of success. He is a genuine "good guy." JMHO

What we got here, is failure to communicate, and it's my bad. I agree with everything you posted!!!

@JayHawkFanToo you say that Prince was a bad coach and no better than Gill? Why? What because they lost at KU and Kstate? That's my point.

You're saying Kstate should be able to get a good coach, but if they don't win then they were a bad hire. Why is that? Even the great Snyder isn't exactly getting the greatest talent. He's just a great coach. I applaud him and would argue with anybody that he's one of the best. However that's not the point. Who's going to replace him? What coach can go to Kstate and replace the great Snyder? Who himself isn't getting the greatest talent? Are you seeing the point yet? Even with the recent success at Kstate it isn't even close to being a house hold name.

The reality is the Nick Saban's of the world aren't coming to Kstate because you can't recruit there. Snyder is a great coach what he's done is the best, however when he dies so does Kstate football.

@DoubleDD

I am not sure you understood what I said. Prince had talent not that different than what Snyder had and could not win because he reached, what in business is called the Peter's principle, and was way over his head. Mangino had marginal talent and was able to extract enough from them to have one of KU's best season ever. Mangino and Snyder are not the only coaches that can do this.

Now, if you look at KSU recruits, they are much better than what they used to get, a result of the program being recognized as a top tier program, not Alabama, OU, OSU, USC, Florida elite but top tier nonetheless. I believe KSU could have hired a much better coach than Prince but they sold themselves short. KU did pretty much the same thing when Mangino left; there were several well known coaches in the mix and instead KU ended up paying a lot of money for an inferior coach.

When Snyder retires, he will likely stay in as an adviser to make sure the program does not sink again and his legacy is in good hands.

@Careful-you said:

@JayhawkRock78 You make a fair point. I am not trying to do a point by point comparison of KSU football to KU basketball for the last 100 years. And I also admit that KU basketball is considered royalty by the basketball world AND that 10 big 12 titles in a row is a monumental achievement.

Still I would not turn away from a Bill Snyder clone if I was going to get a football team similar to the last 20 years at KSU, which I think was the point of the original post. And, if after 20 years of success, then the the program struggles (as we seem to think KSU will), well so be it. I'm still not turning down 20 good years.

We

@Careful-you said:

@JayhawkRock78 You make a fair point. I am not trying to do a point by point comparison of KSU football to KU basketball for the last 100 years. And I also admit that KU basketball is considered royalty by the basketball world AND that 10 big 12 titles in a row is a monumental achievement.

Still I would not turn away from a Bill Snyder clone if I was going to get a football team similar to the last 20 years at KSU, which I think was the point of the original post. And, if after 20 years of success, then the the program struggles (as we seem to think KSU will), well so be it. I'm still not turning down 20 good years.

Sorry, I did not make myself clear. Bill Snyder walks on water. He is the perfect example of a Great man, great coach, true Christian and on and on. I love everything about him and I am no KSU homer. Still, Bill Snyder alone, or his success at KSU doesn't hold a candle to the KU bBall program. History. I am jealous of what he did/has done at KSU.