I'm searching for fill material while we wait for the next big recruiting announcement.
Noticed I said "BIG!"
Some have mentioned AW3 lately.. and it sparked a question in my head:
"Who is the better player, BG or AW3?"
And... "Who would be getting more PT this year if both were at KU?"
Inquiring minds want to know...
@drgnslayr hard to decide w/surgery.
BG is way better than AW3 imo. I agree with Self that BG has pro talent potential. To me, AW3 usually looked a big step behind everyone else from a talent/coordination aspect. However, player development is sometimes tough to predict. I remember freshmen TREL was not very good at all, his shot was terrible with a capital "T". Fast forward 4 years and he became a fantastic all around player and a critical piece to the team.
@drgnslayr I don't think there is any doubt that BG is the superior shooter. He is one of the best pure shooters I have ever seen. Incredible FT shooter and when he is feeling it the ball seems like it barely touches the net.
That said, what other positives can you give about BG? Not a good passer. Not a good rebounder. Spends a lot of time in the Self dog house. Obviously doesn't play any defense. AW3 may have been better at all of those things.
I still go with BG, though. A guy with his shot at his height is a rarity.
Ben McLemore
AW III could not get a starting spot or even get meaningful playing time while at KU and obviously felt he could not beat current players, so how good can he really be?
I think it's a tough question to answer.
I'm trying to count back.. but would AW3 be a junior or senior this coming year?
Maybe the extra year or two would have given AW3 a chance against BG. Even though AW3 was a good perimeter shooter, BG has him beat on the long ball. But how many other areas of the game does BG have an advantage over AW3?
Which guy has better handles? Seems neither has good handles.
Which player has the best attitude? Not sure about that. BG gets in Self's doghouse and AW3 always seem to work hard in the off-season to improve. Maybe AW3?
Which one is the better athlete? I'm not even sure here. It seems like BG has him edged out, but I remember how much AW3 bulked up. Enough to catch or pass BG?
Well, we are left with BG, so I hope he proves he can play in Self's system and become a valuable player these next two years!
I felt pretty optimistic about AWIII once upon a time. I always felt something off the court might have lead to him leaving, but I never read a credible explanation of what it might have been, and I couldn't come up with something myself. So: until I hear something, or see him do something awesome at NU, I will just reckon he was not as good as BG.
@jaybate-1.0 I spoke to a family member about aw3; I did not ask directly but I'm pretty confident it was decided based on lack of PT. I don't know that he could have worked any harder or been a better teammate. The writing was just on the wall that year. I mean maybe he could have also been concerned about an injury recurring? Purely speculation but recall he was doing well before getting hurt and when he got back he was out of the rotation and never really got a shake thereafter.
This thread made me think more about how we recruit. Many of us complain when we recruit over some of our already-talented players. Many of us really like AW3 and felt he could find a way to contribute. But in the end, he didn't. And then he left.
Players like AW3 and Doyle make many of us question Self and his recruiting methods. Does he over-recruit?
It is hard to be sensitive to players and also be at the competitive level it takes to win in D1. Especially in March.
I always get emotional about players. It is rare when I don't get a man-crush on a KU player. But I'm also trying to get a grip on understanding the recruiting process, and what coaches at this level have to do in order to win.
I still question if AW3 or Doyle would earn minutes at Kansas. I know Milton has done well at Loyola. It is doubtful he would have ever been given that much PT to develop if he had stayed at Kansas. Especially when considering the flood of shooting guards we've had over the past couple years.
I'm trying to view college basketball recruiting like owning an airlines. It is an unfortunate method of business, but seats have to be over-sold in order for these companies to stay in business (at least, so they say). Sometimes passengers are left behind. Sometimes players are left behind, too.
I think many of us in here need a better understanding of the process so we stay off of Bill Self's butt all the time! I know I do!
Every coach over recruits and if available will pick a player that might get more playing time than a current player. That is the nature of the business, and it is not just Coach Self that does it. All coaches do it when given the chance, the difference is that top programs have a better shot a top recruits so they will likely over recruit (over fill-in players) more so than smaller programs where many times they have problems using up the available slots.
I agree with you here. And this is where regulation properly laid down can help minimize this problem. Self and most coaches act this way because the rules both make doing so necessary to win and and permit it.
I suspect Self and most coaches would prefer rules that deny them all this approach. But until it is denied, they will do so.
Regulation is a great tool when used skillfully and wisely.
@jaybate-1.0 How would you regulate this? Allow no more than 4 scholarships per class? That might work. Would be crappy if you have a high level of success as the kids leave it would take 2-3 years to recover from a couple early exits.
I am with @dylans on this issue...how exactly would you regulate beyond what the NCAA already does (sit one year)? Neither a program nor the NCAA can prevent a player form leaving if he so desires, the most the NCAA can do is make sure that the scholarship is given and guaranteed for a 4 year period (some school already do this) so the student cannot be forced out, but if the student-athlete wants to seek more playing time elsewhere there is not really much that can be done.
Speaking of over-recruiting, I wonder if Hunter Mick does not, perhaps, sleep fitfully, wishing that he had joined AW3 at a program like Nebraska?
@approxinfinity I could never figure out why his minutes came to such a screeching halt his last year. If memory serves me right, he had several excellent games at the start of the season, and was simply buried on the bench after that.
@KUSTEVE What I saw that I liked about AW3 was that he seemed to be a. smart and willing to do whatever was asked of him, b. able to get out on the break and transition pressure defense to offense well c. a decent 3 pt shot. What I didn't like was that his reactive footspeed seemed a bit slow on d, and his 3-gun was extremely cold for several games. I hope he'll get all the PT he needs at Nebraska and be one of ones we say got away. I hope Brannen will improve his court awareness and be impactful on all facets of the game, not just set-shooting.
As many NBA experts will say, you need to be extremely good at one thing to make it in the league. But if you can't make a 3-pointer for half a season, and that is your only real job, you're probably not going to be seeing much PT at any level. When Brannen wasn't make his shots, he was maybe a hair worse (he had his moments) than AW3 not making shots. But, he was way worse than Svi not making shots.
@approxinfinity Maybe what turned out to be Fools Gold was Self's investing more minutes in BG than Svi during league play; then finding BG missing (almost a la Cliff A.) when post season chips were on the table. Was BG hiding the seriousness of the hip problem much earlier than reported to fans? And Cliff: was he or was he not "NCAA Ineligible?"
In the link that @Crimsonorblue22 posted with Coach Self comments in Arizona; he seems to indicate that Cliff was rule ineligible by the NCAA. I posted the same thing on that thread.
"As many NBA experts will say, you need to be extremely good at one thing to make it in the league. But if you can't make a 3-pointer for half a season, and that is your only real job, you're probably not going to be seeing much PT at any level."
I believe many coaches and head offices used to think this way. That a player could be a single-talent guy and still be worth having. I think that is largely changed over the past decade, especially when it comes to defense, because most teams in the league have really stepped up their offenses to take advantage of obvious holes in defenses.
Even though many will never give NBA teams credit for playing defense... it is well known that defensive intensity is what largely creates wins... or lack of creates losses.
@REHawk Seem to recall the fact came out that BG hurt himself in February, and was trying to play through it, which explains the off-shot, and the regression in his mobility those last several weeks. After seeing him in person last month without the distortion of the widescreen TV (where he stars for the "Jayhawks" ), he is one skinny, lanky dude.
Interesting discussion to compare 50 ranked AW3 with 30s ranked BG. I'd throw another 30-50 ranked kid, Releford in that discussion. Releford was an absolute scorer in high-school, who Self had to get to buy-in to the defensive philosophy. But he did, and he had amazing footwork for defense, probably as good as Rush on the D end, and I only use Brandon Rush as the 3 wing benchmark of the Self era. Releford's Sr year, he was scoring 13-15ppg, with a few 20+pt outings. My only residual thought about Releford was maybe he could have done more vs. Michigan, as I just don't remember him as part of the mix those last 4-8min of that game. But still, he was a solid warrior. That euro-step was dazzling. If he hadn't hurt his ankle, which derailed half of his Jr? season, who knows where his stats would have been. He really had to develop his 3pt shot, which became a reliable weapon by his Sr. year.
Releford > AW3.
BG > 3pt shooter than Releford, but Releford > BG in every other category.
Put it another way, Releford could likely shut down both BG and AW3, while neither one would be able to shut down Releford.
@JayHawkFanToo Yeah, I read what Self said about Cliff. Interesting to me that no professional journalist covering Jayhawk Basketball performed the due diligence to unearth that fact. Keegan, Bedore, Tate, even Newell and the K C Star guy, what do you say? This did seem to be an ongoing crucial issue for some time. Was the ineligibility issue not determined by the NCAA until after the season? Seemed to me that the coaching staff was just waiting out the determination, not taking a chance on playing Cliff, so as to protect against possible forfeitures. Unless these writers are merely careless in their craft, something seems screwy to me regarding the Cliff issue.
@ralster Interesting take. I agree Jr. and Sr. Releford are better than AW3 will be. I will wait to see what BG becomes his Sr. year. It's not likely that BG becomes a better all around player than Releford. Releford had tremendous D and flashes of good O. I think Sr. Greene could be the opposite with tremedous offensive outputs and flashes of good defense. While Releford was a stabalizing force, Greene could be used as a cataylist. I doubt Greene will surpass Releford, but wouldn't be surprised if he equaled him.
You are absolutely correct that Releford could shut down Greene at this point. With a slightly quicker release the taller Greene could shred Releford from deep. On the flip side, he still wouldn't be able to guard a slashing Releford.
"Releford could likely shut down both BG and AW3, while neither one would be able to shut down Releford."
Absolutely correct, 100%!
BG should adopt Releford as his role model. Watch all his tape, we have plenty of it.
As you mentioned, BGs shot went south when he suffered his injury.
He will have to re-establish his shot after coming off surgery. He'll be down from basketball a few months, and he has never been down from ball for a stint that long.
I believe this period is an opportunity for him to take his game to the next level. While re-establishing his spot up shot he needs to add in some off-the-dribble shots, too. He has to start creating his own shot, even if it just means using a shot fake and taking a single dribble in any direction before pumping it up.
Some guys really come back and play their best ball after injuries requiring surgery. It is a wake-up call on your entire life to go under the knife. To have medical people explain the possibility of a bad situation from anesthesia. He may come back with a new purpose. A clean mental slate with a new drive and enriched passion. He could use it because his game is no where close to being NBA ready. He is a long ways from being the next Danny Green.
@JayHawkFanToo It was conjectured that TT was burning off calories late night in the FieldHouse, thumpin' the Hawk.
@JayHawkFanToo I recall on the old site when @jaybate-1.0 referred to Tyshawn as a "whippet", which I still think is hilarious, but quite accurate--as Tyshawn was an unstoppable blend of quick, skinny, aggressive attitude...along with 6'3 length. And tough, as he played thru a broken finger his jr season, and on a bum knee that got scoped mid-sr season, and there he was leading Self's charge all the way to the Champ game. One of my favorite Jayhawks, as coupled with EJ, Self once again proved the 08 formula of multiple dangerous ballhandling+scoring guards really put pressure on opposing Ds.
I hope he gets to earn $ from this game for as long as he can, he deserves it, never quits trying to get better & better...
I miss TT.... especially the senior TT!
His career has gone for quite a ride lately. I was thinking he was going to stick with the Nets. What a deal... playing at home! Just cross a couple of bridges from Hoboken and he was at work!
He was traded to the Pelicans in 2014 and never even saw the court before he was waived, just two days later. He was treated like cattle.
He knew he had to stay active while the flies still surrounded him so he played some D-league in Portland, Maine.
A month later he headed to warmer waters and played 17 games for Atleticos de San Germán in the Baloncesto Superior Nacional, down in Puerto Rico. This was spring of 2014.
In the fall he signed with Dynamo Moscow in Russia for the 2014-15 season. Curious how he came out financially on that deal because he was waived after only 7 games. My guess is that he couldn't adapt to the lifestyle, plus I'm not sure how American players are treated right now in Russia. Too much politics.
February, 2015, he signed with Indios de MayagĂĽez back in Puerto Rico.
The road ahead for TT might get rough. But he is a tough kid who just needs to find the right team that fits his style. Good luck, TT!
@drgnslayr Sheesh! Tyshawn playing overseas ball, man, that kid will put up some numbers. He was "unguardable" as a D1 senior, and a big net positive. He'll earn money. He may be too thin-framed to beat the NBA perception of needing thick players. But he'd sure make a nice backup PG for any number of NBA teams, imho...
Just like TRob...
@JayHawkFanToo worked for Tarik too! Divine intervention!
@Crimsonorblue22 Unfortunately. The NBA for role players are widely based on being in the right spot at the right time to cement a future in the league. Jeremy Lin could obviously play but had to have the right time with the Knicks after being waived a couple times. You can't tell me that Taylor can't do everything he can. Other than shooting, he is longer, faster, more bouncy, finishes around the time better, better defender, better rebounder, and the handles are pretty even.
Danny Green took awhile before he got in the Spurs system and there are many others.
Granted, there are also reasons that deal with maturity and leadership. There is a reason Nick can see the floor with a top team like the Thunder and Darrell hardly can get off the pine.
But when players don't see the floor, they get let go. And other coaches who pick them up don't want to risk their job by letting players who hasn't been proven yet. It's a vicious cycle.
@JhawkAlum yes! You are right, stinks!
Tarik was lucky that he went to a team that badly needed a player like him; remember that he was waived by Houston to make room for Josh Smith and now he is being looked as starter for the Lakers ↗next season.
Same thing with Trob. When given a chance he has played well but he had the misfortune to go to teams that had several players ahead of him; hopefully Philly will be the place where he can get a real chance. Xavier Henry finally found place with the Lakers only to have injuries derail his plan one more time. Withey could also do well in the right team and has played well when asked but he plays behind players with bigger contracts that the Pelican need to justify, so he does not get as much playing time.
@JayHawkFanToo Tarik played really well in the summer league, so happy for him!