🏀 KuBuckets Archive

kinda curious, about Vick. the word was originally he was going to announce about re-classifying the middle to the end of last week as if he was re-classifying to 2015 or going to stay put until 2016. Then we heard he was going to announce yesterday, and we got nothing. Have heard say maybe Coach Self has to him to stay put until we find out about Paschal, even the we got the commit from the Mississippi transfer wanting to possibly keep a place open for Paschal if he still wanted to come to KU. Soo, has anyone heard anything else heard anything about the situation?

Probably our number 1 question right now.

Here's another one: suppose Chukwu is willing to come to KU, and Vick is willing to wait a year to make room. Do we take a Chukwu in the hand and a Vick in the bush?

I know HEM has warned that if Vick doesn't come this year, he may go elsewhere next year - so there would be risk involved.

If you could be sure of getting Chukwu now and Vick next year, would you prefer that? Or do you want Vick now no matter what happens with Chukwu?

P.S. I am not saying Vick is waiting on Chukwu's decision: I have no idea - although the longer he waits to reclassify the more I will wonder.

Ah, now the question of linkage has gained more footing. Yesterday was supposed to be the day for Vick to announce his reclassification decision. Could he do it today? Sure. But this all has more traction now.

@ParisHawk Thanks for correctly stating my current thoughts on Vick .. when he was the #133 player, I was a bit more bold in saying we would not see him at KU if he didn't reclassify. Getting the big ratings bump changed my "would not" to a "may not." I just think that the longer a kid sits without actually signing, the more risk that is present (and time to decommit like he's done before).

And how might Vick feel now if when he committed he thought he was very wanted and needed for this coming season, and now KU is saying, uh, "wait"?

But that's speculation. KU might not be saying all of that.

Again, from yesterday, there is more traction as well with the idea that someone might depart if Chukwu does come into the fold -- to make room for Vick.

More interesting speculation now.

I had also read where Chukwu is to visit Iona after Kansas. So the plot thickens.

Unless a current scholarship player is on the docket to leave the program, we come down to crunch time regarding the one open scholarship. Vick or Chukwu? Self knows that he needs another big man for 2016-17. Self, by inviting an SMU guard to fortify our current perimeter play, knows that there is an immediate weakness for 2015-16. If Chukwu flies away without commitment, I think Vick will sign on the dotted line. If Chukwu does commit, then we go into 2015 hopeful that Greene's surgery was successful. Also, hopeful that Vick does not change his mind again before signing for 2016.

My take on the situation is that Vick's jump in the rankings makes things complicated. IF he plays above his current ranking all summer he could potentially increase his value. Being able to put that you were a McDonald's all American on your resume changes things. Im not saying that he will make the cut or that he could increase his ranking any more than he already has BUT his family is surely aware that he could play his way into some of the games next April. More exposure could equal more money in the long run? I think he stays in the 2016 class.

On the old website someone stated that Coleby had signed a "grant and aid", and speculated that that may leave a scholarship open for Chukwu. What is the difference between a "grant and aid" and a scholarship? And does that make a difference as to the number of open scholarships?

@HighEliteMajor Here's a question for you or anyone that has knowledge of it.
Could, say Hunter, or Landen, or anyone else play an active part in the WUG's & then still transfer before fall semester ? Another question: Are a medical redshirts & a typical redshirt treated the same ? In other words would it be possible for a player to get the MRS after already sitting out the year like LL did ? Am only trying to figure out how & why Self wants Vick now (Greene RS) & how he might have schollies to land Vick & Chukwu both ?

@oldhwkfan It's a "grant in aid".

Usually an incoming freshman will sign a "letter of intent". That binds the player and the school for one year.

You can only sign one letter of intent, period. When a player transfers, he can't sign a letter of intent but he signs a "grant in aid" whereby the school agrees to give him a scholarship.

Self can only talk about players who have signed something - either a letter of intent or a grant in aid.

In both cases, it means the school has granted a scholarship.

@globaljaybird I don't know about playing in the WUG then transferring. But I suspect they could. The new year begins, I believe, with fall enrollment. But I'm not sure.

On redshirts, you get 5 years to play 4 seasons. So one redshirt. A medical redshirt could give you a 6th year to play that 4th season. So you can get one of those, even if you have a redshirt season already, like Lucas or Traylor or Mickelson.

@ParisHawk

"In both cases, it means the school has granted a scholarship."

The way I understand it... a LOI is not a scholarship. It's a contract commitment to come play ball at that school. A scholarship's "main workings" are the grant in aid. Big difference here... because a player can usually squirm out of a LOI and as long as they haven't received a benefit yet (which comes from signing a grant in aid) he can transfer without having to sit a year. Once a player receives a benefit, he is truly committed because the NCAA makes them sit a year if they transfer.

This could come in play if Vick signs a LOI with Kansas and doesn't reclassify, then later wants out of his LOI. Most schools let guys go without too much struggle. And if schools put up a battle they are viewed as not putting the players first, which will give them a recruiting black eye. Savvy players know they can hire an attorney and get them out of a LOI easily.

@globaljaybird I'm pretty sure they could transfer after games. I know Taylor cox is getting a 6th year for fb. It's a process and not guaranteed.

@globaljaybird Taylor cox

Taylor Cox will actually turn 25 this September, during the opening weeks of the season, which only partially explains a turbulent and injury-plagued three seasons at Kansas. Cox, a former junior-college transfer, is returning from a torn Achilles that wiped out his entire 2014 season. The Achilles injury, suffered in the preseason, came just one year after Cox took a medical redshirt in 2013.

In all, Cox hasn’t played in a college football game since Sept. 7, 2013 — otherwise known as the season opener of Charlie Weis’ second season. Now Cox is finally back, the veteran member of a rebuilt backfield under new Kansas coach David Beaty.

Cox, who rushed for 464 yards on 91 carries in 2012, will battle for playing time with sophomore Corey Avery, senior De’Andre Mann and junior-college transfer Ke’aun Kinner. After being granted a sixth year by the NCAA, Cox will be the rare junior-college transfer that spends four years on campus. But first things first: Cox, a native of Mill Creek, Wash., will continue his recovery process with an appearance in the Jayhawks’ spring game on Saturday.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/campus-corner/article19151466.html#storylink=cpy ↗

@drgnslayr From the National Letter of Intent home page:

The NLI is a binding agreement between a prospective student-athlete and an NLI member institution:
- A prospective student-athlete agrees to attend the institution full-time for one academic year (two semesters or three quarters).
- The institution agrees to provide athletics financial aid for one academic year (two semesters or three quarters).

I see your point that the NLI is a commitment and the grant is actually fulfilling the commitment.

I don't think Vick can sign an LOI anyway. Late signing period ended May 20th, no?

P.S. Looking at the NLI site, "NLI must be accompanied by an athletics financial aid agreement"

Chukwu wouldn't be visiting Kansas if there was no way to bring him on board. Period.

@REhawk has it right... either we have a current player prepared to transfer or flip to walk-on status, or Vick may still keep his 2016 classification.

I tend to believe it is the later. I'm thinking he is ALL KU now.... a total team player who will do what is best for the team. If we get Chukwu and Vick doesn't reclassify because of it, he should earn a lot of brownie points. I know he does in my book.

His current jump in ranking is for 2016. 2015 rankings are completed and he isn't a Top 100 prospect. Big difference because being ranked a year away has less relevance. Players can make big leaps up or down in a given year. I still look at his rise coming from two things: 1. the "Self bump" (yes, it is real), and 2. with 2015 gone, it sheds new light on the guys left for 2016. The hype is in full tilt because Kansas signs him early and he'll be part of the next crop of talented players.

I am still excited with the idea of landing Chukwu. There just aren't many quality footers out there. He is listed by some as 7'2"... which makes me believe he is at least 7'. Compare that to other footers that later only end up being 6'9 1/2"..... I bet he has a crazy long reach, too!

I think, if indeed coach Self HAS possibly told Vick to hold off on his decision, which maybe he has since we've heard nothing, maybe he wants him to hold off until after Paschal has made his visit. I feel if Paschal wants to come like has been stated, then we should offer and keep Vick where e is now, take the chance on him re-considering his choice next year, stay in 2016. we will have a much bigger need for interior players next year with the departures of Perry, Jamari, Hunter, and more then likely Cheick, then we will at the shooting guard, so if we have the chance for Paschal I say take him and let Vick stay at 2016

I don't buy it. We recruited Vick for 2015 because we need him this year.

We didn't recruit him with the intent that he was going to stay in 16 class. If he does in fact stay, its because he didn't have enough time to qualify, not because Self has told him to wait. The intent of Vick all along was that he would be a Jayhawk this year. Just because Coleby took Chukwu's spot at the moment doesn't mean that Vick is being swayed to wait.

Why would we wait for Chukwu, a player who can't go to Korea & can't play this year?Because he's 7'2 and everyone seems to want him around here.. Coleby stole his spot, Self wanted him and got him. Seems to me we are done recruiting unless Vick doesn't qualify. I'd still be recruiting Chukwu until we know Vick's intent, seems ill advised to quit now. If he qualifies he goes to Korea and we are done recruiting.

We could have Coleby, Bragg, Lucas, and Diallo next year.. And any possible recruits..

I don't buy that someone will transfer to make room for Chukwu. That's losing someone to play this year, for someone who has to sit. There's too many good recruits in 16 to stockpile sitters.
I don't buy that we need Chukwu, when we can get Bolden, or Herard, or another just as talented recruit.

@ParisHawk

I don't really know all the exact details. I am of the opinion that the real commitment starts when the recruit receives his first benefit. I'm not sure if the NCAA sees it as his first stipend or receiving anything from his scholarship, like books or signed into housing. Or... if the commitment is real just upon signing the GIA. I'm sure there are many in here that know the exact rules on this.

I'm under the opinion that guys have walked free from LOIs without having to sit a year... as long as they didn't advance with their GIA.

"Looking at the NLI site, “NLI must be accompanied by an athletics financial aid agreement”"

Something is confusing about that. Otherwise... all players who sign a LOI would have to sit a year before becoming eligible somewhere else.

REQUEST TO ALL:

Please fill in the holes here!

@drgnslayr

A letter of Intent binds the players to the school and he would need a release to play elsewhere. The grant-in-aid without a letter of intend bind the school but not the player; remember that is how Xavier Henry was able to leave UK and come to KU?

A player could also get financial aid based on need but not necessarily get an athletic scholarship; however, the amount and benefits are not even close to those of an athletic scholarship. It is possible that a transfer that will have to sit one year does not get the full benefit of a scholarship in the year he sits and gets only financial aid based on need.

At leas that is my understanding of how this things work and I could be wrong.

@HighEliteMajor

Why would he visit Iona? Any player with NBA aspirations would be crazy to go to Iona instead of one of the major programs. Yes, he would likely get more playing time but if you are not confident that you can become a starter at a major program, chances are you are not NBA material anyway, in which case why waste time recruiting him. I will guess that the Iona trip is a favor to a friend or recruiter and not really a likely destination, although this just a guess on my part.

@BeddieKU23

I think Self has the right focus.... Kansas basketball first, WUG second. If need be, he can bring in another player if we need it for WUG. He could bring in a better player than Vick (older with D1 experience). Self is thinking ahead for Kansas basketball, and well he should.

Chukwu wouldn't visit us if there still isn't the possibility he can play here.

I'm sure Self has had to assure Chukwu that signing Coleby does not indicate less of a desire to sign him.

What I like about signing Chukwu is that first, he is a bird in the hand. We've missed on most of the big men we've gone after and I certainly wouldn't count on us signing Bolden. Plus... why not sign Bolden with Chukwu? I see Bolden possibly being a big 4... His height is listed as 6'10" (which probably means 6'8" to 6'9" ). He would probably take a year of Hudy to be effective at the 5 at Kansas. Chukwu will already have a year of that before he becomes eligible. I kind of see Bolden as a guy who won't explode until he reaches the NBA for a while. He seems OAD material. If he stays another year, he would be phenomenal. He's just like Oubre. We just got a taste of his game then he's gone.

Chukwu is a legitimate footer. Those have become rare and hard to find, especially those that can run around without tripping over themselves.

Maybe I'm wrong about Bolden and he wouldn't be OAD material. His ranking isn't that high so far... but he has definite post moves. Not many of those guys around. And if he grows another couple of inches, watch out!

After looking at the graduate transfer situation, there is nobody that makes sense to transfer to make room for Chukwu at this point. Even with Nic Moore in the mix for the WUG, KU is still short a guard which is why Vick is trying to reclassify. Vick is the the guy to sub in for an injury next season, especially if Greene's hip takes longer than expected to heal or if he has a setback of some kind.

Brannen Greene would be the only possible transfer option and that would solely be because of disciplinary reasons and not to make room for someone else. The only way Paschall Chukwu comes to KU at this point is if LeGerald Vick isn't cleared to reclassify into 2015 because KU needs Vick more in 2015-16 than Chukwu in 2016-17 at this point.

I think what's going on is Chukwu hasn't canceled yet because Self is waiting on an official word from Vick (supposedly some time today) and when Vick announces that he's reclassifying, we may hear the next day that Chukwu is longer taking his visit this weekend.

@drgnslayr

I don't know much about Bolden other than the mixtapes, ranking & interest in KU. I'd have to watch some of his actual games to understand what kind of talent he projects to be. Looking at his body, he looks to be more than a OAD. I don't see the elite attributes that usually come with the OAD bigs, but I do see a player that would benefit from the KU system and already has post moves to work with.

With the Vick situation, do we forget that just 2 weeks ago we were knee deep in recruiting a wing for 2015. Mack, Eubanks, and then Vick. I just don't think anything has swayed or changed the fact that Self wants another Guard/Wing for 2015 not only for the WUG but for this year. He's 1 injury away from being a necessity. He could be that talented to earn backup SG minutes this year, we just don't know.

Coleby wasn't the sexy pickup, and frankly was such a last minute visit and quick commit that it took the rug under from people on why this happened and what that means for Chukwu.

Coleby provides the same theoretical scenario that we all know, we lose 3 possibly 4 big men after next year and having another post with system experience will greatly benefit the team. We got it, we should have Bragg & Lucas at the minimum, and if we are lucky a 2nd year from Diallo.

Self is leveraging his bets in case Vick doesn't have the necessary stuff to re-classify. It's smart don't stop selling your program to him until you know Vick can play.

Chukwu is all potential, potentially a great big, potentially a big that is still a few years away from his best basketball.

@Texas-Hawk-10 why is Vick dragging his feet? like I stated earlier, first it was surpose to be the middle to the end of the week last week, THEN it was going to be yesterday, Now your saying sometime today. he has to know by now if he is re-classifying or not, so why is he holding back? some people justified the signing of coleby because they said chukwu was dragging his feet and hadn't committed to Ku. bottom line is Coleby visited and committed before Paschal was even scheduled to visit, you can't be down on a kid and not saying you, but you can't truly expect a kid to commit to a school before he steps foot on campus. the ONLY thing that I could possibly think of the reason for offering coleby was maybe coach self had a feeling our chances of landing paschal were not good. that was my thought before, but since have found out with Paschal still going to make the visit makes me believe there is something else. HAS TO BE., and like others have said makes me believe Vick is staying in the class of 2016, he might be thinking stay put and see how much higher he gets rated, develop more and could de-commit to us period. has signed nothing binding. I fully believe coach self has talked to Paschal and re-assured him you wanna come, there is a spot here not to worry. again if not then WHY? he knows what he wants. classify or not.

@jayballer54 You can bet the farm that HCBS has an ace in the hole for Chukwu should he want to be a Jaybird. .A walk on will give a scholllie up in a heartbeat if Bill can get a footer, project or not.

There is such a thing as a "Run off" waiver that could be used.

This would allow a player to be eligible for immediate transfer providing the head coach admits that he cut the player from the team without any misconduct. The player would also have to be in good academic standing.

The reason most coaches don't do it is because they have to admit they kicked a player off of the team for essentially no reason and that looks very bad when recruiting.

But, I believe this would allow someone like Hunter or one of the bigs who wants to leave to actually transfer schools and not have to sit out a year. It could easily be a mutual benefit for us and a guy like Hunter.

@HighEliteMajor Thanks - I wondered if a guy could actually get 2 RS's. Also consider that Greene is coming off a surgery & Vick may be an absolute necessity regarding such a possible RS for him.

@jayballer54 I don't know definitively, but my best guess on why Vick hasn't announced his reclassification yet is that there's a hold up in the process beyond Vick's control. Whether it's a Clearinghouse or Bill Self related delay, I don't know at this point, but that's the most logical explanation at this point.

he will enroll at ku

Lost in all of this a little bit is that Self is REALLY working hard to construct this roster for success here. If he's juggling things, and if he has to make a tough decision on a kid, that's what he has to do.

I mentioned this a few seasons ago .. We want him on that wall, we need him on that wall.

He made a very tough call on a soon to be senior last season (Tharpe). He made a very tough call on a relatively popular kid (White). It would be much easier for him to let things play out on good kids. Agree or disagree with his decisions -- the constant activity to try and make Kansas better is exactly what we should want in a coach.

It is a harsh world, and decisions have to be made in many cases coldly, and based on the reality of CBB -- winning.

I don't think that we have any doubt that Self's decisions are geared toward winning. Good stuff.

Give me Chukwu, or give me death!

@blackmild33 Right on .. Vick reclassifies to 2015. Done deal.

Now, does Chukwu visit tomorrow? Is there another shoe to drop? Or are we done?

@HighEliteMajor ku is out of scholarships unless somebody transfers

guess we don't have to worry now, since he announced. but good question on Chukwu, someone stated. walkon would give up scholi, ummmmmmmmmmmmm am I that blind? don't really think a walk on can give up a scholarship can they? that's why they are walk on- - - -they don't have a scholarship t give up, I now think we ARE DONE. don't really see Paschal coming now for sure.

When Michigan men’s basketball Austin Hatch took a medical red shirt it opened up a scholarship to recruit a top 10 OAD. If Brannen Greene takes a medical red shirt does it open up a scholarship for KU?

@Statmachine Exceptional circumstances approved by NCAA ↗. Hip surgery vs. plane crash and prolonged recovery. Not a consideration here, but good point.

Is Michelson related to the pro golfer?

So I am counting out everything to make sure I have the roster situation for next year (not WUG) figured out.

I count the following:

Seniors (3) - Ellis, Mickelson (redshirt), Traylor

Juniors (4) - Greene, Lucas (redshirt), Mason, Selden

Soph (2) - Graham, Mykhailiuk

Fresh (3) - Bragg, Diallo, Vick

That's all of the scholarship guys that I am counting, unless I have missed someone. That means that KU still has one more scholarship for this year. Chukwu and Coleby would both be eligible for the 2016-17 season after sitting out this upcoming year. With Mickelson, Traylor and Ellis all leaving after the 2015-2016 year, I don't see any reason that we can't accommodate both players.

Am I missing something? Is my math wrong?

@Statmachine Austin Hatch is no longer on Michigan's basketball roster. The exemption they got was a medical hardship so that he could stay on scholarship to complete his degree at Michigan, but his playing career is over and that's how they cleared that scholarship spot.

@justanotherfan You're missing Coleby who makes it 13.

At this point, I hope Chukwu cancels his visit (either he cancels himself of Self cancels for him) now that Vick is officially in the class of 2015. Nothing against him personally as I would've preferred him over Coleby, but what's done is done and now we're talking about removing a piece of title contender this year to make room for someone who's nothing but potential at this point in 2016-17.

Why are we trying to find a way to fit Chukwu into the mix now? KU will not be a serious national title contender in 2016-17, they are however a legitimate national title contender in 2015-16 (4th favorite in Vegas). Let come what may in 2016 recruiting, but Bill Self needs to leave this roster alone now and focus on winning the 2015-16 national title starting with the opening of the WUG practices next week. Use Nic Moore to make Mason and Graham better PG's, use the WUG to develop Ellis and Bragg's perimeter games because they will see some minutes at the 3 in the WUG because of Greene and Svi being out.

KU is a serious threat to win a national title in 2015-16 and they have been given an opportunity to get an extra month of unlimited practice and some games against top flight competition at this age range. Bill Self needs to take full advantage of this head start he is getting courtesy of USA Basketball.

Paschall Chukwu, you had your opportunity to become a Kansas Jayhawk, you didn't act quickly enough on it, sorry but it's time to find another place to play besides Kansas. The road to Houston starts next week with the opening of practice for the WUG.

ROCK CHALK JAYHAWK!!!

@Texas-Hawk-10 "KU will not be a serious national title contender in 2016-17."

Uh, why not? Mason a senior, Graham a junior, Svi a junior, Selden a senior (or maybe Josh Jackson in his place)?

Bragg a sophomore, plus two guys (Chukwu and Coleby) in our system for a full year (assuming we land Chukwu)? Plus recruits, like Bolden? Add in senior Lucas.

Good God man, have you been smokin' weed?

2016-17 is definitely a potential title year.

@HighEliteMajor Don't forget about the over seas trip next summer. Another head start opportunity next summer also.

@HighEliteMajor Did you order the code red?

Paschall Chukwu -What does Coach know that we don't? What happens when a footer visits a campus that has no scholarships available?

@Texas-Hawk-10 it has already been announced that he's going to be in 2015

@HighEliteMajor No, I'm not smoking weed, but I'm wondering about you right now. There's two things about your rationale right now that don't line up with how I've known you to think.

You were very critical of Bill Self forcing Andrew White III out last year (for who turned out to be Svi) , and now you're advocating that Bill Self do exactly that (I'm guessing to Greene based on your 2016-17 roster) this offseason. Why the 180, is it personal bias for White and personal bias against Greene?

You yourself called 2016-17 a POTENTIAL title contending team. 2015-16 IS a title contending team. You proposed a lot of what if's to make KU a title contender in 2016-17 compared to the reality that Mason, Graham, Selden, Greene, Bragg, Lucas, Coleby, and Vick. Svi is currently a projected mid 1st round pick on multiple credible projection sites so he's not a guarantee for 2016-17. Using what if's to justify kicking a player off team that is currently a title contender to bring in someone to help a team that might be a title contender is very flawed logic, especially for someone like you.

I get you're a big fan of Chukwu, I was a big fan of Williams, but Williams isn't coming to KU and nobody on this team should be sacrificed to make room for Chukwu no matter how big your man crush on him is because nobody in the frontcourt is eligible to transfer and KU doesn't have the depth in the backcourt to sacrifice someone for a player who won't help KU on game nights in 2015-16.

@blackmild33 I know Vick has announced for 2015, that was my point in my post. People are still trying to justify kicking someone off the team and bringing in Chukwu now that KU's scholarships are filled and I think it's a stupid at this point to do that.

This Chukwu visit puzzles me, now that Vick has committed. I am happy with our current 13 scholarship players. It seems to me that Mickelson got short changed on playing minutes last season, but I feel good about his senior season. I don't see Brannen Greene as a good fit for Bill Self Basketball, but I can't envision Self nudging him out the door. Now that the 13 slots are filled, why would Chukwu waste an official visit to take a looksee in Lawrence? Or is that term "official visit" and subsequent NCAA ruling a moot point for transfer players?

I believe Chukwu's proposed visit was for this coming weekend.
It's only Tuesday - i suspect we will hear something by tomorrow or thursday whether he's changing his plans. We've all hashed this out over and over. ! There are no more scholarships.

Can someone, let's say Mickelson for,example stay in school and on the team but give up his scholarship ? And would Self ever ask a player to consider that ( okay im grasping like everyone else)

@Texas-Hawk-10 You know I was kidding about the weed comment I hope. Just a little levity.

I do not like the fact that White got run. But at the same time, I like having a coach that is going to make the tough call to create the roster he wants. I may not agree with the decision, but I agree with the approach. No pleasant task. If the coach does not think the player will play (White), or his negatives outweigh the positives (Tharpe), and he clogs a scholarship for what Self perceives to be a better player, then Self is doing the right thing in my opinion.

I think your logic fails here on Chukwu. If we lost either Mickelson, Traylor, or Greene, would you lose any sleep for the coming year? I wouldn't. I love Greene, but not in Self's system. Greene's terrific, but my humble opinion is that Self doesn't use him the right way. I've wasted a number of posts on that topic. I do think we'd be better if we lost Traylor. And with Mickelson, he's just one big expectancy sitting on the end of the bench -- and we got zero from his last season. Our season would have turned out the exact same way without Mickelson. So yes, I'd trade either big guy right now for Chukwu. And because we signed Vick, I'd part with Greene.

But I do respect your position -- sticking with "our guys" has a lot of merit. I generally agree with that. It's just when a guy is scholarship clogger that I might depart.

@HighEliteMajor I personally wouldn't be in favor of dumping Traylor or Greene for Chukwu, but if Mickelson were a realistic option, I wouldn't be opposed to that.

We're never going to see eye to eye about Traylor value and skill so I'm not going to get into that again. One other aspect is that Jamari hasn't graduated yet and has already redshirted so forcing him out ends his college career without a degree, that's a very negative PR hit that would be all over the major sports websites painting Self as a terrible person (and deservedly so IMO) and would have a negative impact on recruiting.

There's two reasons I'm opposed to forcing Greene out. He's too good of a shooter to leave alone and he was making strides in his defense before his injury. The other reason is KU doesn't have the depth on the perimeter to afford dumping a perimeter player. If Greene is forced out, KU would be down to 5 perimeter players (Mason, Graham, Selden, Svi, and Vick) and would struggle to withstand an injury. Also throw in Svi is a projected mid 1st round pick next year on multiple sites and KU's depth issues on the perimeter could be magnified and landing a quality 2016 becomes the top priority in 2016 recruiting over a big instead of the other way around.

Hunter is the one guy I wouldn't be opposed to trading out, but there's not a way to do so without looking bad unless Hunter can fast track an August graduation, but that doesn't sound like a viable option. Also the same negative PR I mentioned about Jamari applies here in forcing out a senior who's already redshirted and hasn't graduated yet.

Of the 3 players you named, the 2 would be seniors aren't going to graduate before August and therefore can't transfer unless it's to a D2 school without ending their careers. And KU doesn't have the depth to logically send off a guard this offseason. I'm not opposed to making room for Chukwu in theory, but looking at the logistics of how it would have to happen combined with expectations this, that's where I become opposed to the idea.

Actually, one option I hadn't thought of and I don't know if you've mentioned is moving a player from scholarship to walk on if the parents have the means. I don't know the financial status of players parents, but Perry or Landen could be a viable option for this route.

I might be wrong here but I don't think we can just have a player pay their way to solve the problem. I thought you could only suit up so many players and if one scholarship player does take one for the team so we can add Chuckwu, then who doesn't suit up? The obvious answer is a walk-on but man that seems like a tough pill to swallow, and not likely to be a coaches kid.

@CaptnMo There is no total roster limit, only a scholarship limit of 13. Moving someone off scholarship doesn't prevent them from dressing up. KU moving someone off scholarship to clear room for Chukwu would put them at 17 total players and 15 players eligible to play in 2015-16, the same number of players KU dressed last season.

@Texas-Hawk-10 as far as parents paying, one reason that came up when Perry was checking out the draft was that his parents were struggling financially. There was a nice piece on the Ellis's and their work at the children's home in wichita, on kwch.

Perry Ellis

http://www.kwch.com/news/local-news/how-the-wichita-childrens-home-shaped-perry-ellis/33321852 ↗

Teams require puzzle pieces.

To play for rings they need all the pieces for matchups they are likely to meet in a final four full of footers.

Thus one or more to footers are necessary pieces.

Chukwu, a footer, is a must get.

Self can't sign 5 star footers in the stack era, because of the embargo by asymmetric stacking.

No one can win a ring moving forward without a footer, because 2 and often three of the Final Four will be footer stacks, and so they will beat you unless Self can match up with at least one footer of his own to go with Self's counter punching reliance on stretch 4s.

Chukwu has to be signed now because Self might not get another good chance at a footer for a few years. It's ugly, but Self has to run whomever that he can best do without this season.

Without a footer, with green bigs like Diallo and Bragg, with Coleby just another 4, with BG in rehab limbo, and with weak returning bigs, KU can win another B12, but has slim chance of a ring. Period.

With Chukwu and what Self will return the following season, and the two Adidas 4-5 stars that conveyor brings, KU can play for a ring for one and maybe two seasons.

Vick only matters this season. If he can't play this season, the Adidas conveyor can bring some one better than him next season. It is harder to embargo perimeter players, because there are so many.

Failing to sign Chukwu now means not only not having all the pieces this season, but likely for three seasons. Three seasons is an eternity in D1.

Coleby was just stop gap insurance for this season and next for Nike reaching out and touching Chukwu.

The only logical reasons for Chukwu and Vick delaying are if: a) sanctions for Cliff are brewing; or b) Fratello/Hill have a foreign footer that is newly thinking about coming to KU to play this season.

Otherwise, this is HITCHCOCK'S LIFEBOAT and one or more get life jackets and put overboard.

Guys get cut in highschool try-outs.

Guys get run in D1.

Always have.

Always will

Self has done better than most at helping place the displaced.

I'm glad Vick re-classified and I'm excited to see how quickly he picks up on the system. This kid could push Selden to become the player we have been waiting for. Selden finally has some credible competition, just what he needed.

This Chukwu situation will work itself out. I figure he's still visiting because he's in the area after visiting Nebraska the past few days. If a scholarship pops up before he decides then KU may have a good chance. At the moment we shouldn't speculate or count on him being in a KU uniform.

Greene's not going anywhere, his GF goes to KU and there's much fanfare on her alone that would make any College kid stick around. Greene has NBA potential and Self will continue to push him to that goal. We are not getting rid of the 1 3-point threat we have.

I have to say Self finished the recruiting season strong and shot down any fears we may have had just a month ago. Bragg & Diallo are studs. Vick could be anything & Coleby has a bunch of upside still so I'd say we did good for both this year and the future.

In all this talk of who theoretically would Self " run out" to open a spot for Chukwu, we've heard Greene, Traylor and mickelson mentioned a lot ...
But hardly a mention of Lucas .. The one guy who cant score a basket if his life depended on it... yes his defense is better and he can rebound some, but...

And i'll repeat for the third time - if Self and staff REALLY wanted Chukwu and thought he was the key for the next 3 years, they would have kept a spot open til he visited and made Coleby wait (Coleby would have waited by the way - he has expressly said that KU was his dream destination) ... didn't happen did it ? What does that tell you ?

And lastly - of course Self does have to make tough calls on guys, some more tough than others, because his job at a blue-chip program is ultimately is to win ... But his job is also to mentor and build up young men and make them better in many ways and prepare them for the future.
He has more money than he knows what to do with , and he can get a job in d1 or the nba easily. He cares for his guys and has perspective.
His career does not hinge on getting a footer (has anybody done their homework on Chukwu - is he that amazing? ) at the cost of casiering one of his guys.

Btw he LOVES jamari ... Not going to happen there fellas

@Bosthawk Interesting you point out Lucas.

You mention that he (Lucas) is the "one guy who can't score at the basket if his life depended on it ... "

However, the stats tell a bit of a different story regarding him being the "one guy". Field goal percentages at the rim -- Traylor (of course) 54.8%; Ellis 58.1 %; and Lucas 59.3%.

Now, you had said the "one guy" -- that's all I'm refuting. Ellis and Lucas are not good at the rim, and Traylor is really bad for a post player. Thus our issues last season. Thus the constant commentary on why our system didn't seem to fit our personnel skills last season.

Of course, there were two guys who could actually score at the rim at respectable rates -- Cliff - 68.7% and Mickelson 70.7%. By comparison, for what it's worth, Dwight Coleby was 67.5%.

@HighEliteMajor
Thanks for the helpful stats
My impression of lucas was based on perceived playing time vs total points - he just seemed that he could not score very much whe he was on the floor, and when he would get the ball in close he would miss bunnies on a frequent basis. He appeared to me to have almost zero shooting ability. Mickelson also appeared to have more offensive shot skills, but is kinda slow and got pushed around. Traylor seemed to score more total points (again i dont have hard stats to back this up) but of course he was on the floor a LOT more than Lucas and Mickelson. And I suppose too that Lucas is a more effective rebounder and defender than mickelson and traylor stat-wise.

Chukwu is 7.

By definition he is necessary.

That he runs the floor, jumps and looks like he gets the game means he brings something KU lacks.

Coleby had to be signed too. Coleby covers not signing a footer that can play now. And he creates so many 4s filling at 5 that if Chukwu will commit, Self can flush someone, or med red BG and leave the toilet spring alone. Coleby is zero threat to Chukwu. Coleby was a no brainer.

And LaGerrie isn't strong enough to impact, or guard much, once the B12 starts. LaGerrie is just back up insurance in an emergency.

Frankly, Self has crapped out recruiting the team's two immediate needs: a footer and a 3 that can replace Oubre.

He signed what he could get, because he couldn't sign what was needed.

Lots of pieces are not the same as the needed pieces.

But if he can still sign Chukwu, at least he'll have the pieces the next year.

Diallo/Bragg with a year's experience would complement Chukwu/Coleby/Lucas well.

There is no way around the need for a footer.

Self may not get Chukwu, but he is no dummy. He knows he needs him badly and he is hanging in to the bitter end.

And unless Diallo learns to shoot, he is a 2 year guy on skills and height, despite the hype.

One way Chukwu could come to KU is with an academic scholarship from almost any source. He could become a red-shirt walk-on for this season and then be awarded a scholarship for '16-'17.

@Bosthawk

so we are going to run our backup center (maybe starter to begin season) who's already red-shirted to make way for what??? what is so special about Chukwu that we are contemplating every what if situation besides running Bill Self out of town to give him a scholly. pretty funny stuff around here

@BeddieKU23
No i agree with you believe me - i was just speculating on why Lucas's name was not mentioned as possible guys that could be theoretically "run out" when Traylor and Mickelson and greene were mentioned frequently. HEM helpfully pointed out that lucas's stats are not as i perceived, and Jaybate set me straight on the fact that it's not an either/or situation with Coleby and Chukwu- we still need a footer 5 guy regardless.

@BeddieKU23

There are just 8 reasons: the eight teams in the top ten at the end of the season with footers and good perimeter players.

And three of them ruled to the Final Four.

And MSU proved that STACKING has progressed to a point that UCONN's ring was the end of something, not the start.

@Bosthawk Lucas is not a good option to force out because the reason for wanting Chukwu is because KU is going to be thin in the front court in 2016-17.

@jaybate-1.0 There's one flaw in you 7 footer theory, 2 of the last 3 national champs didn't have a 7 footer on the roster, so it's not a necessity.

@Bosthawk You assume right. Yes, Lucas was the best rebounder .. appx. .29 per minute. Mickelson .25 and Traylor .18 per minute. Right now, I value Lucas over the other two.

@BeddieKU23 Remember, what we're talking about is real potential vs. pedestrian.

@Texas-Hawk-10

It is not a flaw at all IMHO.

The two seasons you cite are irrelevant.

Things have changed.

There are tipping points in everything.

There is a tipping point for how many footers and other talent are required to overwhelm opponents with footers, just as there might be tipping points in how many 450 pound linemen it will take on how many NFL teams one day to turn all of the Super Bowl winners into teams with 450 pound lineman.

Stacking is a quantitative phenomenon occurring within a dynamic game space in which equilibrium strategy keeps altering based on the changing distribution of footers and complementary talent.

Stacking one team with only six great talents at UK did it in 2012.

But we are witnessing narrowing talent distributions that reduce the number of teams that can seriously compete to those with stacking currency, if you will, in this case footers.

Repeating the stack with Nerlen Noels didn't get it done the next season, so the stacking was increased and focused on footer redundancy, because Nerlen Noels injury proved that complementary talent could not compensate for catastrophic injury. Embiid's injury proved the same thing for KU.

The system learns. Its a feedback loop. And it has some facets of rational expectations theory; that is there is some inflation of expectation of what it takes to keep getting the same benefit stacking year after stacking year.

There will always be statistical anomalies under any equilibrium strategy, but you have to face the reality that eight of the top ten teams were multi-footer stacks last season and two of the Final Four teams were multi-footer stacks and one had the new Stretch Five Footer, while only one was footerless--MSU--and it got manhandled even though it had the only kind of a coach playing the only kind of style that might be able to be a multi footer stack, other than my idea of shooting 80-90 percent of one's field goal attempts as treys, which with a 30 second shot clock will become even more feasible to do. But coaches are very slow to take risk. They are highly paid and so risk averse, and so prefer the rigged formula of skewed distribution of footers by Big Shoe-Agent conveyor systems than trying radical new offensive solutions. They know that even if they come up with a better offensive mouse trap, as Self did this past season with Bad Ball, that the refs will intervene and make sure it does not prevail. So the only rational move for coaches is to try to get in on the stacking process and the equilibrium strategy so far for stacking is no more than eight stacks. All these adidas coaches appear to be marking time trying to win conference titles, knowing they likely can't win a ring anymore, in hopes of hanging around long enough for the powers that be to informally institute a more broadly distributed talent stacking array. Some of them get impatient and give up, like Donovan. Some of the decide its apparently time to switch sides, like Cuonzo. Some of them like Self try to augment the adidas talent with with off-shores and transfers and diamonds in the rough. Self is such a great coach he can keep eeking out conference titles that keep the fans content, while he looks secret passages and little harbors that the blockade hasn't sealed off.

In the years you cite to try to make your case, you fail to point out that there were not 8 multi-footer stacks in those years, so those years are relevant only if you argue that the era of multi footer stacks of eight are the future.

What appears to be happening is that the system is still oscillating through equilibrium strategies looking for the optimal way to dominate the Final Four AND ensure sufficient talent at the right number of teams to create the statistically probable level of stack dominance to achieve optimum gambling revenues and optimum branding of players at stack programs, which designed Final Fours will enable.

We may see the model reequilibrate at ten stacks of 3 footer per stack, or we may see the model reequilibrate at 12 stacks at two footers per stack, or even three stacks of four footers and an OAD point guard.

The system is a feed back loop that is reconciling the dynamics of shoe branding, gambling, and viewing audience; that is what is my hypothesis of what is going on and your argument is not refuting it. It is just selectively slicing time series data and leaving out shifting equilibrium distributions of talent and and strategy of the feed back loop with the incentive systems that are in place.

Of course, all of the above is hypothesis and speculation.

Rock Chalk!!!

So what does this have to do with Vick?

@Statmachine

Nothing really. I am just addressing the portion of the thread relating to Chukwu. Vick doesn't really matter much except for this season. Self failed to get an Oubre replacement and BG got a tough surgery, so Self needs a warm body and LB helped us out it appears. But the adidas conveyor will likely bring us someone better than Vick by next year, unless the adidas conveyor is truly broken.

You see there are always exceptions to rules.

Wiggins was an exception to the rule that long time Nike leans generally are not turned to adidas. And Jaylen Brown is an exception to the rule that adidas leans are not generally turned to Nike.

But the tendency weighs in over time. Next season, the adidas conveyor is likely to spit out a perimeter player better than Vick at 130 whatever that Vick is ranked. Vick could easily be a transfer next season, because of an OAD, and other returning players, or perhaps not if he improves mightily in weight, strength, and skill this coming season.

My argument here is that Vick and Chuckwu are basically independent of each other.

Chuckwu is basically independent of everyone on the team returning and coming in new.

He is the only footer we believe is available to us that could play not this season but next.

We have no reason to believe that KU is going to switch to Nike and so become a stack school. And we have no reason to think that adidas has a enough footers available for next year for Self to get one. If adidas has such a player lined up for Self, well that's one and he really needs two or more, unless one is a Stretch 5 a la Kaminsky. But the point is that Self will try to sign Chuckwu even if adidas has a footer bun in the oven for him.

Footers are that necessary to winning 80 percent of your games.

Because teams have to have footers in the stack era, and because Chuckwu is available now, he has to be taken, if he wants to play for KU.

Self has fallen from stratospheric winning levels of 82% to human levels of 7os percent the last two years.

He can't just go back to the type of talent he used to get his first eight years, because there weren't footer stacks in those days.

Now he has to get himself some footers every year if he's going to get back up to the sweet spot of 82 percent.

Or he's got to drastically soften the schedule and accept never getting to the Final Four.

The man plays to win.

He's going to find a way to get his footers.

It may take him a couple of years to find the crack in the door, but if its there, he will find it.

@jaybate-1.0 Vick was ranked at 33 and a 5 star on rivals and 51 on espn's top 100 this morning.

@jaybate-1.0 Not buying the 7 footer theory because there simply isn't the volume of 7 footers to do this.

Also, KU already has Oubre's replacement on the roster, he was signed last year when Self dumped AW3. Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk is Kelly Oubre's replacement.

Also, LaGerald Vick did get bumped up to #33 before he signed with KU which is a similar jump to what Svi made in the rankings last year.

As I debated with HEM yesterday, I personally think it's stupid to boot someone off of this team that is on the very short list of title contenders this year to prepare for 2016-17 where KU is not guaranteed to be on the short list of title contenders even with Chukwu.

As much as people are talking about building for 2016-17, you'd think KU wasn't in any kind of position to make the NCAA tournament this year, let alone contend for a national title.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I think you are stretching the discussion just a bit to fit your narrative. Most everyone thinks KU is a national title contender this season. No doubt. I think that is the consensus, not the exception. However, my position is that if we lost Traylor or Mickelson, it wouldn't matter one bit. And actually, I think if we lost Traylor we would be better. Addition by subtraction, the Naadir Tharpe way (but for other reasons). In principle, I agree that we should not ditch someone that, if we lost them, it would make us worse for 2015-16.

Greene is an interesting discussion on that line of thought. I think Greene could be tremendous. But as the 5th perimeter guy, and the marginalizing of his one main skill ... hitting the step in three pointer ... I tend to think we could survive. Because of Vick, I'd part with Greene if it meant Chukwu. That might not be the wise decision, though, I admit.

I guess this is not about Vick?? ;)

Just throwing my two cents out there. After watching the nightmare unfold last year. Two things came to my mind.

One is HCBS doesn't change his system to the talent he puts on the floor. He expects those players to run his system without question.

Two when HCBS doesn't have the players to run his system. KU becomes very beatable.

So what do we do? Do we get rid of HCBS? No of course not. However if we are going to keep him then he should recruit to his system, and us fans should let him. I would hate to see any current KU player let go for any reason, but HCBS system requires big men, and Chukwu is a big man.

I say sadly let the chips fall where they may, but sign Chukwu. Scholarships are giving on a yearly basis. Just because you dream of going to the moon, becoming the president of the Untied States or playing for the Kansas Jayhawks doesn't mean it's going to happen. Especially in this day in age of the shoe wars, media contracts, and conference realignment.

The old days are gone. There is no more time allowed for rebuilding. To survive one must reload. Just look at how far UCLA has fallen. They're not even the top dog of the West Coast anymore, and they were once a blue blood. The game has changed my friends.

If we keep HCBS then we get big men anyway we can. Even if it means clearing a spot on the roster. :(

@HighEliteMajor We can go back and forth all day long about whether or not Traylor, Greene, and Mickelson make KU better, but that's not a discussion that will ever bear any fruit because we simply have different opinions on Greene and Traylor's value to Kansas basketball.

In regards to Brannen Greene, let's say he's on the court with Mason, Graham, Bragg, and Diallo and KU is in their high-low set. Diallo gets the ball and is double teamed by his man and a guard, KU at that point has three 40%+ 3 point shooters on the floor and one of them is wide open. The ability to discourage double teams in the post because of the 3 point ability of the guards is not something that cannot be overlooked when it comes to making the high-low more effective.

Let me ask you a question about this situation. We both know that Traylor and Mickelson haven't graduated yet so that rules them out as graduate transfers. Neither player has the disciplinary history that Tharpe did to justify removal, so how does Bill Self remove a would be redshirt senior that hasn't graduated yet and doesn't have a history of disciplinary issues without damaging his ability to recruit 4 year players?

Aside from the on court issues, the off court PR damage from kicking a would be redshirt senior off the team for a project player, Chukwu may have a high ceiling but he is a project at this point, I would lose a significant amount of respect for Bill Self for pulling a move like that on a 22-23 year old kid who hasn't graduated yet.

At this point, the only viable way to land Chukwu would for someone on scholarship to move to walk on status. There's just not another option that doesn't hurt KU either on the court or off the court.

@DoubleDD Since 2001 Bill Self has had 14 players taller than 6'9" on his teams at Illinois and KU. Of those only Embiid and Withey were footers. At Illinois only 2 of them contributed, Cook and Augustine. At KU he has had Kaun, Giles, Niang, Aldrich, Withey, Markief Morris, Lucas, Embiid, and Mickelson. Of those Kaun, Aldrich, Withey, Morris, and Embiid. were important contributors. That means that since 2001 Self has had 7 contributing players over 6'9" with only 2 footers.

There were obviously other front court players who could score down low but they were 6'9" or less. Self needs players that can score down low; however, it is not clear that he needs footers. Would it be nice to have bigger studs. Of course. Is it absolutely necessary? NO. Of course we have won only one NC during that time. On the other hand, when we did cut down the nets the only player on the list, Kaun, came off of the bench.

Well seems to be a strong opinion by many on this thread that chukwu is essential, and that we need to make room for him somehow.
Self should get traylor, mickelson and lucas in a room ( hell, get all the players in the room just so they are PERFECTLY clear on what is the bottom line at KU apparently) and give them a speech like this -
[link text](

@sfbahawk

Withey was measured at the pre-draft combine at 6' 10- 3/4" so technically he is not a footer.

@Texas-Hawk-10

Not selling! 😀

In the 8 stack program era era that started this past season, KU isn't a ring contender without a footer and without an equivalent replacement for Oubre, and with 6-9 no offense Diallo and 6-10 no offense Lucas manning the post. If opponents teed off on Perry last season, he may not make it through the front nine this year.

The logic goes like this: how can they be net better when they have lost more than they gained? They lost two OADs and recruited one. They lost BG--a junior to rehab-- for part of a season and gained Vick, a reclassifying frosh no higher ranked than BG was. They have no one that can guard a footer, nor a two footer rotation. They have no one that can guard a draft choice three.

KU this season is a B12 contenduh, not a ring contenduh?

They lost more than they gained unless Svi does a supernova.

@JayHawkFanToo

Might "near footer" account for slight amounts under and over 7 feet?

@Statmachine

Has Vick actually improved his game that much?😀

@jaybate-1.0

Maybe, that's a tough question to ask. I think more than anything Vick didn't get the exposure before this spring on the AAU scene and fell through the cracks as they say. Then when he finally played some tournaments he was much better than anyone had realized, dominant to a point offensively. Some of it probably is due to marked improvement in his game which bodes well for us because he could have the potential to start as a Soph if the cards play out for him.

@jaybate-1.0 Greene will be available for the entire season, at least in SelfSpeak.

Mason may improve.

Graham is likely to improve: college PGs generally improve the most between freshman and sophomore seasons.

Svi is likely to improve.

Overall, we could be about as good on the perimeter (1 through 3).

Yes, the 5 is a problem.

How can this lineup be an inside/out team?

@sfbahawk

You make a fine point, but if you against one aspect then you are for the other. Meaning you think HCBS should stay loaded at the guard positions. As your theory is that bigs aren't really the key to HCBS success.

All I can say is you must of not watched the same KU team that I watched last year? HCBS isn't not going to change is system to accommodate a guard heavy team. He's going to play his high low game period. What was on the floor last year left a very sic feeling in my stomach. There is not a KU fan in here that can look me in the eyes and say yea I thought last years team really had a shot at the final 4, let alone a championship.

They were terrible in the paint, and HCBS refused to change his game plan. HCBS needs bigs whether 6'9 or 7ft. After this year Ellis, Tralyor, Mickelson are gone, and there is very good chance that Diallo and Bragg are gone too. That leaves Lucas and Cobley Cheese. The need for Chuckwu goes way beyond the footer debate. If KU were to get Chuckwu they would at the very least have three bigs that know the system and would take off some of the pressure to land two bigs in the 2016 class of recruits.

@DoubleDD

I don't think Bragg will get the PT to warrant leaving after 1 year. He knows after this year the paint is his. He's a potential lotto pick if he sticks around and he seems like a kid who wants to develop in the system.

At some point we are going to want to get young big men in the system. Bolden would be the ideal fit. We will need at least 1 big next year if Diallo does go pro. Too early to tell what will happen

@BeddieKU23

I would love to believe you and would love to agree with you. However the NBA draft isn't about what have you accomplished. It's about potential and whether they are willing to take a chance on you. Bragg very well could be here for a few years, but if he comes out and shows flashes of what he can become. He's gone. Money talks in this day in age.

@DoubleDD

your right in many ways, I just feel with him playing behind Ellis its going to be hard for him to get enough PT to leave. He's not really on any NBA radar at the moment like Diallo already is. He may fly under the radar enough.

@jaybate-1.0 Exposure is key to moving up the ranks. There is generally one guy for each rankings system out there and if you haven't played in front of that guy much then he can not accurately rank you. That's also why he has moved up on some boards but not others.

Paul Biancardi ‏@PaulBiancardi · 21h21 hours ago
Basketball Recruiting - LeGerald Vick - Now in the 100 for 2015 with an Evaluation.

Biancardi has Vick at 51 on his board for ESPN. More exposure over the summer might have put him even higher?

@jaybate-1.0 I think you're discounting Diallo's offensive game. Withey couldn't make a jump shot to save his life, but he sure could dunk. Same with Embiid. Diallo is extremely quick, much quicker than anyone we've had since maybe TROB in the post, and I think his drives to the basket will result in lots of scoring opportunities.And, he will dunk, dunk, dunk. He has a relentless motor that makes him, imo, the best big man in the 2015 class. His defense will be light years ahead of what we endured last year.

Replacing Oubre at the 3 could be a challenge, but we do have a plethora of choices available. I'm sure we'll see in-season tryouts. like we did at the 5 last year.

I'm very excited about this team. It's been since 2012 since we've went into a season with so much experience, which was the last time we made the FF.

@KUSTEVE said:

Withey couldn't make a jump shot to save his life, but he sure could dunk. Same with Embiid.

Withey made 100% of his 3s at KU ;)

Seriously, Embiid could always shoot some.

@jaybate-1.0 I do believe KU is going to be better than last year and there is reason why Las Vegas has KU as the 4th/5th favorite to win the title this year.

Is it a guarantee that Svi will be as good as Oubre next season? No, it's not, but there's a reason why he was considered KU's best NBA prospect last year despite the amount of bench time he saw. Don't forget that Svi was just 17 last year and doesn't turn 18 until next week (June 10). He has the skill, his body is continuing to mature, he has experience now and it's just a matter of time until he shows why he's a projected mid 1st round pick in the 2016 draft. You may say it's a net negative, but don't forget that Self backed off the elite wings in 2015 AFTER Svi and Brannen announced they would be back.

Speaking of Brannen, the time table for his return was approximately 5 months which at the time of his surgery puts Labor Day as the approximate target date for his return. That's 2 months before the season starts so barring some kind of major set back, BG will be ready to go for the season.

The front court is where KU will see the most improvement. Diallo and Bragg should be much better on the court overall than Cliff was last year. Diallo isn't going to be asked to shoot anything outside of 5' other than FT's and has a much higher motor than Cliff did. Diallo is also considered the best rim protector in the class which is what KU was missing last season.

You bring up Diallo's ability to guard 7 footers. Two things about that, Diallo has a 7-2 wingspan and how teams with 7 footers does KU play in 2015-16? I can think of two and of those players may not be eligible to play. UC Irvine has that 7-5 kid, but it's still UCI and KU should win that one. Kentucky has Skal Labissiere, but he still hasn't been cleared to play by the NCAA yet and there's a chance he won't get cleared at all. Beyond those two players, I don't know of a competent 7 footer that KU faces so worrying about something KU has to deal with twice on the known part of the schedule isn't a big deal to me.

This is the best overall team KU has had since 2010-11. There is depth and experience on perimeter, there is experience on the wing, there is depth and experience in the front court. When was the last time KU had 5-6 upper classmen in their projected rotation? Mason, Selden, Ellis, Greene, Lucas and probably Traylor. Add in Graham and Svi who did play quite a bit last year and we're talking 8 of the 9 rotation spots filled by players with experience.

@DoubleDD Players who can score down low are key to Self's offense. Players who want to score down low are the key to Self's offense. My point is that they have not historically been taller than 6'9". In fact, @sfbahawk indicated that at the pre-draft combine Withey measured 6'10-3/4". That's even better. The numbers I used were KU numbers and as has been the topic of more than one thread those numbers are usually inflated.

Who said anything about a guard heavy team? Try pinning that on someone else. It wasn't me.

The argument of some is that it is critical to get Chukwu because he is a footer. Past history does not support that claim. You obviously aren't too excited about Coleby. I don't know whether he will pan out or not. Self must think so or he wouldn't have signed him. What I do know is that he meets Self's profile of big men. If you look at the builds of his bigs, Coleby is closer to that than is Chukwu. It doesn't appear that Coleby will have to spend as much time with Hudy as would others. JoJo was very impressive as a freshman. He was a very good learner and his footwork was amazing. One of his biggest problems was his lack of strength. He could be moved out easier than some.

I would love to have Chukwu on the team but his presence is not critical. I cannot imagine that Self will lose any sleep in the next couple of years if he goes elsewhere.

@sfbahawk I would tend to agree with you on seven footers. They're nice to have, but not a necessity. I think that is what @DoubleDD said -- "HCBS needs bigs whether 6’9 or 7ft."

But the one thing that is clear, a tall, long kid can be a game changer. That why I want Chukwu. When given a choice, I'd rather have a Chukwu type than a Coleby type.

Ideally, really, we'd have both. Imagine 7'2" Chukwu and 6'9" bruiser Coleby together in the post. Sounds good?

Maybe. They need to be skilled. They need to be able to score on the block.

Personally, my opinion has been that we need back to the basket scoring. But I don't care if it's Wayne Simien height or Joel Embiid height. Again, I'd rather have good, skilled, taller players. But we have won without it.

The reason I'm not excited about Coleby is that Coleby was a role player at Ole Miss. He was unranked. He hasn't been spectacular. I think there is an argument that he is just insurance -- that he may not be a real answer in the rotation. But sure, he could be more. Not being excited about doesn't mean, at least for me, that I don't like the acquisition. I'd just rather have Chukwu.

With Chukwu, we have a more highly though of player out of high school. Taller and longer, and certainly rim protector stuff. A guy that after a year here may project more to a Withey type, the kind of guy we all think (I'm guessing you too) fits well in Self's system.

I'm fine with the Coleby acquisition. But I want more. I now want both. I want Chukwu. Is it "critical"? Probably not.

Who was the best post player in Self's tenure at Kansas? Probably TRob's 2011-12 season. But he was paired with Withey. Did Withey make him better? I'm pretty confident that he did.

I want both.

@Texas-Hawk-10

So to distill your reassurances that this is one of the best rosters, since 2010-11, and a team that can challenge for a ring--here goes:

Svi will be good but probably not as good as Oubre. Well, ummm, we didn't challenge for a ring even with Oubre. How exactly are we going to challenge with someone not quite as good?

Well, adding Diallo and Bragg makes us way better, right?

But Diallo has no back to basket offense, which was the problem with our bigs last season.

And Bragg appears so slender he will not be able to stay on a spot, nor knock an offender off his.

Of course, Diallo has a 7-2 wing span, same as Oubre had, and is only an inch or two taller and Oubre, and I don't recall Kelly's wing span compelling Self to use Kelly as a post defender against footers. Not sure this makes me sleep better.

You're not worried about facing footers without guys that can defend footers, because KU won't see many footers during the regular season...though they will play in a post season tournament in which last season 8 of the top ten teams in the country that got into the tournament had 1 to 4 footers and KU will inevitably face and likely not be able to matchup with the footer . Again, you are not making me feel like swaggering about my birds here.

You say we have depth and experience on the perimeter and appear unconcerned about the following things impairing that depth and experience:

a.) Selden's inability to dribble drive, his enduring psychological scars from knee surgery, reduced hop and pop from knee surgery, sharply limited ability to elevate except on a full speed run, extremely uneven focus, and a tendency to disappear for several games at a time;

b.) BG is coming off a hip surgery known for long rehabs and was not good enough last season to take 20 mpg away from Oubre, when Oubre was wearing a gauze gob on his injured knee, and Selden was disappearing 2-3 games at a time.

Vick's contribution to our depth seems questionable, because he is so thin he likely will not be able to stay on a spot, or keep from being shoved out of his cuts on offense; nor will he likely be able to play physical defense his first season.

You figure Coleby meets a "profile" Self has for big men, which apparently includes Jamari Traylor, Hunter Mickelson, and Landon Lucas; this is not making me more confident.

That pretty much covers the list of the confidence enhancers, right?

To everyone denying Self needs footers...

Things changed last year.

The game went from general talent stacks, to footer stacks.

No teams without footers seriously challenged for the ring last season.

MSU backed in, then got exposed in the FF.

Footer stacks, or "near" footer stacks, if one wants to pick nits, makes the eight or so teams with footer stacks very dominant.

Stacking has changed everything about footers except the way we think about them.

@Statmachine

It seems something has changed.

KU's recruits used to go do in rank after signing.

Vick has risen.

Is this a new trend?

Or just an anomaly?

@jaybate-1.0

Might “near footer” account for slight amounts under and over 7 feet?

Where do you draw the line? 6-10?, 6-11? how about a very athletic 6-9 that can out jump and out rebound a true 7 footer? You seem to be too fixated on the height and not enough on the talent. Let's remember that Chuckwu was a role player at Providence, not an elite major program but Providence, where he was #9 in the team in minutes per game....the textbook definition of role player. He might have potential, but at this time and based on his first season he is a project that might or might not pan out. Let's not anoint Chuckwu as the next Embiid or the savior of the Hi-Lo.

@JayHawkFanToo

I always draw the line at 6-11.

I believe doing so is established by international weights and measures standards, isn't it? :-)

Seriously, you have to draw the line at 6-11, or we are not talking near footers.

I have never had trouble guarding a guy because he had an inch on me.

But anyone that has two inches, or more, on me always got harder to guard late in the game when I could jump less.

So: yeah, 6-11, or taller is the "near footer" guideline.

@JayHawkFanToo

Post Script: There wasn't one guy in the top eight teams in the country last season with a footer stack that had even one footer as good as Embiid. Not even Kaminsky. So I'm with you step for step on not annointing anyone the next Embiid. Chuckwu is absolutely vital because he is a footer and KU doesn't have one.

@jaybate-1.0 Provided Beed gets healthy and remains so throughout his rookie season, he will get RoY. Im calling it right now. Wish he could have stayed. But, in today's world, your projected in the top 3 or 2 of the draft, how can you turn that down?

@jaybate-1.0 said:

@Statmachine

It seems something has changed.

KU's recruits used to go do in rank after signing.

Vick has risen.

Is this a new trend?

Or just an anomaly?

Did Wigs go down when he signed?

@jaybate-1.0

Again, height alone does not make great player. Our last win last year was against New Mexico State that has Tanveer Bhullar, a 7-3 Canadian Center that even HEM would play way, way behind Traylor :). At this point Chuckwu is 7 feet of potential and by no means a proven commodity...maybe Coach Self saw more potential on 6-9 Coleby. Just sayin'

@Lulufulu

I so hope his back heals. He is one of the greatest center prospects I have ever seen. NBA Hall of Fame was within his grasp pre injury. But back injuries are just killers five years out, even if you recover pretty fully initially.

Unless every thing fits together just perfectly and you do just the right amount of muscle building to augment any enduring structural changes in the spine, then disk deformation and arthritis converge down stream and your career is shortened.

Larry Bird is the poster boy for best case scenario of this back injury phenomenon, but even he is a tragic case of what might have been. Watch tape of him his first season and a half in the NBA and at Indiana State and you know why Red Auerbach thought he had a chance to be the greatest NBA player ever and drafted him because of it. But then after his back injury--the exact nature of which I cannot now recall--he had to completely retool his game from this running, jumping, high flying hick from French Lick style into that long, low shuffling X-axis game that he became famous for. He was so great he could play with a bad back for a career and win a couple rings. But without the back injury, there is just no telling how many rings he would have won.

I put Embiid in this same kind of category, even though he was sushi from having grown up not balling.

Embiid has it all but a money shot and that will come, if the injury permits.

He is just so awesomely gifted athletically.

But the back is just such a complicated place.

Only time will tell.

@jaybate-1.0 I figure the biggest reasons why KU will be better is because they likely won't have their best deep shooter injure his hip again, won't have an assistant coach get suspended from all team activities for two week in late February, have their best low post player player held out because of NCAA issues, or have their bast player at about 50% during the NCAA tournament. I also figure there isn't a dominant program of the caliber of Kentucky, Duke, Wisconsin, or Virginia pre Justin Anderson injury.

@ParisHawk

Agree with you down the line.

The biggest opportunity this KU team will have is Devonte's improvement.

Devonte hung in out on the floor as a freshman sub; that was pretty impressive, even though he couldn't really stand the heat down the stretch (to be expected).

Diallo and Bragg are going to look great against our easy opponents and get schooled all season long by our good opponents.

Vick? I see a potential Michael Cooper kind of guy (a skinny old Laker player from long ago now) in two seasons, once he gets the sinew a little stronger, and finds out what intensity is, but this season we will be lucky if he can give us what Devonte gave us his first season.

I agree Frank will get better, but he is likely not to have as fiery hot of a trey ball this season. Guys can't usually sustain that two seasons in a row.

This should be a good roster for Self to try to get another conference title with, especially with Fred gone, Bruce doing his usual neutron bomb think in Manhattan, and Shaka finding his way in Austin his first season.

Never very worried about Drew, though he will have some players as usual.

The guy I am worried about is Trent Johnson at TCU. If he can get a player or two that can score, he is going to be dangerous. He is a very tough customer. If I am Big Shoe and Big Agent, plus the new African American coaches association and Drake Group, I would be networking for him and targeting him for a stack like Johnny Jones at LSU and Cuonzo at UC Berkeley.

Everything about player distribution and which coach gets the talent has always appeared to have had a strong network dimension. Self came up through the Okie Baller Mafia and has always been able to rely on that in tough times. Pitino's disciples are a formidable network. Pair these networks up with Big Shoe and Big Agent and you've got what we've seen up till recently.

Now there seems to be this emerging network that converges the new African American coaches association advocating for African American hirings, plus Big Shoe, plus Big Agent, plus some of the sports think tanks that have evolved political clout on a few campuses (e.g., Harry Edwards institute at UC) plus The Drake Group advocacy helping blow up a few programs and thus potentially creating some openings to be filled, plus the long established assistant coaches association that has long been a force in recruiting. If I am this apparently new convergence group, I have to be looking at Trent Johnson and think he is in the right city, with the right eye ball count, and recruiting base, and a power conference, so STACK HIM, STACK HIM HIGH! But so far, Trent hasn't been getting the love. Not sure why. He's a Mike Montgomery guy who played at Boise State. He did the usual .500 thing at UNevada first time out, then had a .625 run at Stanford but the black eye came when he fell back to .500 at LSU. Boot. Landed at TCU. At first I thought he was a chump. But he's not. Hmmm. Montgomery just got run from UC for Cuonzo. And Trent got run from LSU for Johnny Jones. UC has a stack. LSU has a stack. Hmmmm. Maybe Trent and Mike are on the outs with the stackers. I don't know. But the guy can coach muscle ball with guys that can't shoot. Give him some scorers and he could put up Ws. Its hard to admit, because he comes off as kind of a jerk sometimes. But I believer in meritocracy, not networkocracy. So: I'm changing my tune on Trent and I'm saying, get this man some scorers. And if he's on the outs with the stackers, then he's probably doubly alright with me.

@Texas-Hawk-10

Lots of near footers (@JayHawkFanToo and I have decided on this new term based on international standards for weights and measures and my childhood experience of guarding guys 1 inch taller versus guys 2 inches taller :-)) still.

Maybe not as many footers and maybe not a four stack, but likely enough to put two stack programs with a footer or two in each region and weed KU out early, because KU lacks a footer, eh?

On the other hand, you make a sterling case for the non recruiting related ways that KU should get better.

Jump shift.

What about Snacks?

Is he being kept in place only until all the risk of blow back from Cliff is gone, or has Self put him on a very short leash and is making him a reclamation project for the long term?

Snacks seems conspicuous in his absence from the Cliff drama and from current recruiting news.

What do you think?

Does anyone know if Snacks has been reported to be out on the recruiting trail this off season?

@JayHawkFanToo

Right you are and we absolutely don't need a great footer.

We just need an adequate footer to match up so we are not completely mismatched and lose solely because of that.

Chuckwu appears just good enough to fill the bill to me.

Just good enough; that's all our non stack program need to go along with its great coach who is good at gerry rigging defenses to over come talent deficiencies, if he at least has the physical match up covered.

Gotta have a footer in today's game to face the footers at the 8 or so stack programs.

Gotta have it.

Chukwu be da only option on duh table now.

Coleby will be a great match up for Ratso Izzo's 6-8 to 6-9 prison bodies, but he is exactly NOT the right match up for the footers.

To parody T.S. Eliot, or someone, we need to prepare some footers to meet the footers that we meet.

Rock Chalk!

@Lulufulu

Great point. I don't think so. Maybe he was the turning point.

However, he did start going down in rank while AT KU!!!!

Self had to give him a few stat builders to get his rank back, as I recall.

@ParisHawk

Yes, Jeff Withey IS the greatest KU triafectate of all time!!!!!!!!

Imagine how much fun Jeff will always have holding that over all the great KU shooters he meets in the L and later at reunions in the coming years.

Yeah, Xavier, you were a pretty good trey dinger, but I never missed one, dude!

@HighEliteMajor

It IS critical to get a footer now.

It didn't used to be critical.

Unless of course you have learned to luv the BAD BALL. :-)

@jaybate-1.0 I'LL TAKE THE FOOTER, I'LL TAKE THE FOOTER!!!!

@HighEliteMajor

YESSSSSSSS!!!!!

@jaybate-1.0 My opinion on Snacks is that he should've been fired the day the season ended. I don't care the weed part of the situation, that was never a big deal to me. The big to me was always the failure to be honest and up front about the arrest and I will always wonder in the back of my head what else he hasn't been up front about, including the Cliff situation. I also don't think we'll ever hear anything more about the situation because the NCAA will never get their hands on the loan documents themselves that they need to complete the investigation because they don't have the legal authority to do so and there was nothing illegal about the loan from a real stand point.

I also think Snacks is an overrated recruiter and I really wouldn't miss him on staff. He had early success at Texas A&M under Gillespie, but wasn't great at Kentucky, Illinois, and hasn't been anything special here in recruiting. Kurtis Townsend is the top of mountain when it comes to recruiting.

A lot of people have disagreed with me on this, but I believe the Jerrance Howard suspension was the biggest factor in KU's struggles down the stretch last year. Howard was suspended on Feb. 12, KU was 20-4 (9-2) when Howard was suspended and went 6-4 against Big 12 teams, and 7-5 overall after that. The Ellis injury did have a negative as well, but I don't think it had the same impact the Howard suspension had on the overall outcome of the season.

@sfbahawk

No, No, I'm all in on Colby Cheese, and think KU's should also go after Chukwu. 6'9 or 7ft it doesn't matter to me. You guys want to get hung up on 3 inches knock yourself out. If HCBS doesn't have bigs then KU because very beatable. I'm not alone in this thinking as we look around the college game. Everybody is trying to get all the bigs they can.

Just look at Chukwu. In all honesty it's not like he was tearing it up at his former school. Yet he decides to change schools and reopens his recruitment and he has a list of KU, Spartans, and Virginia. That's not a bad list of schools interested in your services.

So I guess I have to disagree with you. There is a merit and should be a desire to sign Chukwu.

@JayHawkFanToo says

" He might have potential, but at this time and based on his first season he is a project that might or might not pan out. "

Isn't that recruiting? Even OAD's can prove to be a disappointment. I'm not sure anybody is claiming Chuckwu as the savior of HCBS Hi/low? He would be a nice get though With all the bigs KU will be losing after this season it would be kind of nice to have 3 bigs coming back instead of just 2.

Chuckwu would be a project player no doubt. Yet is that a bad thing?

@Texas-Hawk-10

Interesting hypothesis.

I wonder every once in awhile about the closeness in times of the reputed arrest and the reputed inappropriate loan activity.

Not sure why it might matter, but it seems an anomaly.

@jaybate-1.0 They were approximately a month apart. The Howard arrest happened in July and the loan happened in August of 2014.

@DoubleDD

I don't necessarily disagree with you but at this point I don't see a lot of difference between Coleby and Chuckwu...maybe we can call them Colby Cheese and Chucky Cheese. I for one don't get too hung up on whether a player is 6-9 or 7-0, The two most productive bigs KU has had in the Self era, TRob and Simien were both 6-9 (or less) and I would take either one over Chuckwu or most every other 7 footer. Based on what he has shown to date, a productive Chuckwu would be a bonus but not a player I would rely on.

@Texas-Hawk-10

I wonder if that were the date the loan papers were recorded, or the date when the loan was negotiated, or the date when the loan was first formally proposed, or the date when the idea of some kind of bridge financing were first informally remarked upon, or the date some one got the original idea? Do you catch my drift here? If it were the date of recording, then one would expect there to have been a process with a time frame leading up to the recording. Just an idle thought. Still doesn't really mean anything that I can see.

@DoubleDD said:

I’m all in on Colby Cheese

Had Colbey gone to Texas instead of KU, would he have been known as Colbey Longhorn?

:goberserk:

@jaybate-1.0 The loan date is the UCC filing date. What's known about the situation is that it was an agent (or an agent's runner) that pointed Cliff's mom to the loan agency and the lawyer later on. I don't think Howard any involvement or knowledge of the loan situation because that's the type of infraction that gets a coach a show cause tag and basically black balls them from college coaching.

@jaybate-1.0 said:

@Lulufulu

Great point. I don't think so. Maybe he was the turning point.

However, he did start going down in rank while AT KU!!!!

Self had to give him a few stat builders to get his rank back, as I recall.

Yeah, like his 41pt game against WVU was it? That was awesome.
Broke the freshmen single game and season scoring records at KU.