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Let's put this in perspective.

Beaty inherited a program completely free of free loaders and malcontents.

Charlie Weis ran all those.

Beaty inherited a program full of guys selected because they could run to the ball on defense, even if they didn't have the size and skill needed to be even mediocre.

Weis, who apparently didn't know spit from defense, had a bonafide former NFL defensive coordinator, as his KU defensive coordinator. They had at least to be able to select toward guys "that could run." So Beaty at least has guys that can run, even if they haven't got much talent.

Beaty inherited a team full of guys that have had access to KU's famed weight program and strength coach, Andrea Hudy, for 2-3 years. They had to have gained some size and srength. They have to be better this year than last, even if they only went from awful to bad.

Beaty inherited a team that last season Clint Bowen at least revved up to the point that KU played a few teams close for a half late last season. This means Beaty ought at least to be able to make them competitive for a half this season, maybe even three quarters, before getting slaughtered.

But that hasn't been the case.

After playing ineptly for two games, KU just got beat 27-14 by a team without a head coach and with six of its players just dismissed the week of the game.

After three games, it is unquestionable that Coach David Beaty has delivered the team to a new low.

Is it time for a change?

Already?

@jaybate-1.0 Best signature ever, by the way.

I don't know about Beaty. The Memphis game was hard to watch, but the SDS game was hard fought and even at Rutgers (albeit a depleted Rutgers) it wasn't a blowout. I think with what we've got, as a program it's going to take any coach a minimum of 3 years to get rolling. And let's face it, the continual coaching carousel (CCC) doesn't seem to be helping anything. If it were a vote, I'd say leave him here for 2 more seasons.

@jaybate-1.0

I hope not.

There just isn't enough legitimate major D1 talent on that roster to expect much in terms of wins this season or next. There are only 60 scholarship players on this roster. KU isn't good right now, but firing another coach means that we are hitting the reset button yet again, without even allowing Beaty a chance to recruit and get some talent into the program.

Barring a scandal, Beaty should be allowed at least three seasons, and I'd be inclined to give him as many as five years to try and right the ship. This program is in bad shape and needs a strong dose of consistency to have any chance of recovery.

@justanotherfan

I agree. I am not sure why we are even talking about this after 3 games. If Beaty is fired now or soon, what coach in his right mind would want to coach at KU? Beaty needs to be given AT LEAST 3 year before even broaching the subject.

@justanotherfan

Well, yours was exactly the argument I made for Gill, and again for Weis, even though I thought neither guy should have been hired in the first place.

But apparently KU leadership and a goodly number of fans thought Gill needed to be run early and Weis needed to be run early.

So: I thought after trying to stop Gill and Weis from being fired early, I would jump shift on bidding and be the first to call for Beaty's early dismissal, even though he has the kind of prior employment profile I wanted them to hire instead of Gill, or Weis. :-) Skin color and sky gods preferences just don't sway me pro or con.

Aw, what the hell.

Let's cut to the chase here.

If Beaty were a fundamentalist African American, lots would already be calling for his head.

And if Beaty were a Roman Catholic advocating cornerstoning his recruiting system on Roman Catholic high school players, as Weis stupidly did at one point, Beaty would probably be in the early stages of deep do-do-ca-ca-poo-poo-nasty-no-no with the protestants.

But Beaty is kind of vaguely defined religiously (he is religious but I don't know what brand) and his racial profile is not pioneering, and by god he has recruited Texas in the past, so I will take my tongue out of my cheek and say, "Alright, okay, give Dave five years. Three won't come close to turning it around. Give Dave five. Heck, maybe seven. Do I hear ten?"

If he is KU football fans are dumber than I thought.

@MoonwalkMafia

How dumb did you think they were after seeing their misguided excitement over the hiring of Turner Gill and Charlie Weis?

How dumb did you think they were after they supported short sheeting both Gill's and Weis' tenures?

How dumb did you think they were when they thought Beaty might be able to win a non conference game this season?

Like I tell folks, we are spoiled by how knowledgeable our basketball fans are, and we unwisely generalize that expectation to KU fans knowledgeability about football.

@jaybate-1.0

I thought they were very dumb after being excited about a coach whose best season was an 8-5 campaign at Buffalo. Although I honestly don't think many of them were genuinely excited after watching Mangino get canned.

Gill had lost the team. In large part because he made being a KU football player about as unappealing as he could. These are kids. They're in college. Cramming your religion down their throat and robbing them of the simple things that ALL college kids enjoy led to Gill losing that team.

For all of Weis's negative aspects there was clearly a change of pace from Gill. The most unfortunate thing about that 1-11 season under Weis was how many games KU should have won that year. Now, I've never been one to say "I called it," but it became clear after Weis realized that
the 2014 season wasn't going to be any different from those prior that he flat out gave up. After Cozart threw his 4th interception against Texas and Weis continued to trot him out there in the 4th quarter with the game still in reach, I said, "he'll get fired tomorrow."

To me, this season means very little. I want to see progress. It's all a wash. Beaty not winning a conference game means very little to me. It certainly would've been nice, but I'm not sweating it. If this happens again next year, we can revisit this topic.

As for KU basketball knowledge spilling over to football, quite frankly, I think you're giving KU fans in general a lot of credit. KU football fans are terrible, terrible fans. Not all of them, for sure. I watch every single minute of this travesty of a program, but I'm one of the few. KU fans were made fun of for leaving the Orange Bowl at halftime. That's KU football fans in a nutshell. KU basketball fans on the other hand are currently suffering from "conference-title-streak-itis," where the victim can't recognize simple inequalities such as 2 > 1, or national championships > Big 12 titles.

@MoonwalkMafia You are absolutely clueless about the culture within the program under Mangino and Gill. Mark Mangino lost the team when he went on an unwarranted verbal tirade on Arist Wright after practice. If Mangino wasn't fired, there was going to be a mass exodus of players that offseason. I can tell you this because I had classes with several upperclassmen on that football team including a couple of guys who were considered leaders in the locker room.

People don't realize what an accomplishment 8-5 and a MAC title is at Buffalo. Buffalo's best season prior to Gill was 2-10. Gill significantly improved Buffalo football and was a coach worth hiring at a major conference. Gill has also won or shared a conference title every year at Liberty so clearly the man knows how to coach. His problem at KU was a case of wrong fit at the wrong time.

Gill did not shove his religion in the players faces (I can tell you this from first hand accounts of players in the program at the time). He is a players coach whose philosophy is one of personal accountability and self discipline. That was not what KU needed after Mangino's tenure because those players were not used to having any freedom and pushed the limits as much as they could and many past what was acceptable at other schools. KU needed a coach that was strict, but not a dictator like Mangino was. Turner Gill is a good coach who was just the wrong coach at the wrong time.

There are quite a few players from the Gill era that Gill has helped get into coaching and you will never see a bad word spoken about Gill the man from any of KU's players from that time. The couple of players I still have contact with both share a similar opinion that Turner Gill was a good coach and would've gotten KU back on track given enough time, but Gill was just a bad fit for the needs of KU football at the time he was hired.

@MoonwalkMafia

When Dean Smith coached a UNC, for a long time he required players to go to church on Sunday. It could be any church of their choosing, but he required it for a number of years. Granted, this was a long time ago, but he did it.

There are lots of coaches with tough rules. Gill played for Tom Osborne during an era when Osborne had some pretty strict rules. Obviously, those rules later eased quite a bit. Dan McCartney at Colorado had some very strong teams (and won a national title) with lots of very strict rules.

I've seen people on this board say that Gill gave the players too much freedom after Mangino was so tough. I've seen people say Gill was too strict with his rules. I honestly don't think it was either.

I think that after Gill lost his first game to an FCS school, it gave the people that didn't want him hired some space to start chipping away. When that happened, the players saw that Gill didn't have support any more, so they knew he couldn't come down on them. Gill lost the team because he lost the powerful alums. I heard people after that first game talking about gathering funds to buy him out. If you're a player, and you hear that powerful alums want to get rid of your new coach, are you going to listen to anything he says at that point? Probably not. He has no hammer anymore. He can't suspend you because his job is already on the line. And that's after the first game!

Gill was doomed almost immediately.

Weis was doomed when he left ND. Actually, Weis may have been doomed long before he ever arrived at KU. Either way, there was no chance Weis was succeeding, but the alums had already jumped the gun on firing Gill because they overestimated the attractiveness of the KU football job. They thought they could attract a big time, up and coming coach. Instead they got a coach that was just a big name and an empty suit.

Gill actually had the team heading in the right direction. He had a ton of young, athletic talent on both sides of the ball. He had a stable of running backs, some big wide receivers, a ton of speedy DBs and lots of athletic LB/DE type guys. He also had some huge linemen. Now, almost every single one of those guys was a freshman, RS freshman or a sophomore when Gill left, but there were pieces there. Had KU made the right hire after Gill, they would be in line for a mid-level Big 12 finish this year, and a shot at a bowl.

But Weis, because he was a big name and was arrogant, decided to clean house, in part because there were some problems, and in part because he didn't want the success to be attributed to Gill's players. And yet, every major contributor during Weis' time at KU was a Gill recruit. That's why we have 60 scholarship players this season. That's why Beaty is basically trying to build a burnt out house. Weis was possibly the worst coach that could have been hired in that situation, but because certain alums wanted to make a "splash", he got the job.

So really, I lay the last few years of football futility at the feet of a handful of prominent alums. Most people will never know who they are because they were anonymous when the Gill buyout went down, and they used that money to influence the Weis hire.

If KU football wants to improve, they should look for athletic players that may not get a lot of attention from other schools because they don't play for strong HS teams.

If I were them, I would focus on Kansas City, Kansas, Topeka, and Wichita.

Currently, the starting QB for Hutchinson JC is a kid from KCK. He was on scholarship at Minnesota, but left without playing. He's a clear D1 talent. If I were Beaty, I would be all over this kid.

There are a couple other kids in KCK that are fringe D1 prospects, but are good athletes. Beaty should be targeting those types of players because he is so short on athletic players that signing (or getting walk-ons) that are athletic may help him with his depth.

Same thing in Wichita and Topeka. There are at least a couple players in both cities that are not really ranked right now, but are athletic enough to be D1 players despite playing on bad teams.

You land five or six of those kids (some on scholarship, some as walk-ons) you can rebuild the infrastructure of the program. That's where the focus should be right now. Building in the foundation to hopefully have success in a couple years.

@justanotherfan Turner Gill did not lose the team. I know this because I know players from that team and have had conversations about the differences between Gill and Mangino. Mark Mangino is the one who lost the locker room because of the disrespect he frequently showed towards players and tye Arist Wright tirade was the straw that broke the camel's back in regards to Mangino at KU.

The locker room loved Turner Gill and absolutely felt he could've gotten KU on the right track given the time which I think was possible because Gill had landed his QB of the future in Seth Russell. The only two rules Gill had that were influenced by his religious views were the girlfriend rule and the no swearing rule. The personal accountability philosophy of Gill's isn't a bad thing itself because it did help prepare them for life outside of football.

I've been told by players that it was primarily the younger Mangino recruits that pushed the boundaries under Gill and remember that when Weis got here, he got rid of a lot of upperclassmen, not younger guys. The would be 4th and 5th year guys that Weis dumped were Mangino recruits, not Gill recruits.

The money issue with Gill is why there was the impatience with him there was among the boosters, but as I've said quite before, the players loved Gill and never quit on him. The belief was that Gill needed the time to get the Mangino players out of the program in order for Gill's philosophies to translate on the field. Had Gill's salary been in line with accomplishments at that point, he would've made about $1M per year and people would've been more patient with him. The belief was also that the 2009 team no matter who the coach was, was going to take a big step back because they didn't have a QB or good WR's.

@jaybate-1.0 As much as I could care less for football in general, I would like to see some patience for Coach Beaty. I hope they give him at least a few years. Lets not be paying 3 ex coaches millions of dollars a year while we search for a replacement shall we? Plus, the guy is a local. He should get a bit more time based on that alone.

@Lulufulu

Okay, I'm in.

I disagree with the general direction of this thread. First, I've always been a longtime college bball fan + an NFL fan going back to the '85 Bears. And we loved seeing the Orange Bowl KU team.

But what NOBODY has mentioned is that the KU defense lost 3-4 NFL players (2 CBs, Heeney, Stowers) and maybe even another. Let's not forget that 5yr Sr. WR who also decided to leave KU after only being in town x 1 yr. And we lost Sims and Pierson and last year's TE. At least we have Kinner, but what about Taylor Cox? The biggest problem KU has offensively is the O-line (just like the Chiefs...). The biggest problem defensively is the lack of run D and the youth in the secondary. I mean those CBs aren't even close to getting an INT... I miss Jacorey Shepard and Dexter McDonald!

Beaty is facing partly a natural-cycle of rebuild when you have good people graduate. But his position at aTm was in recruiting, so lets give him 2-3 years to re-stock the cupboard.

Bright side? I already like the O-coordinator (Likens), got to score pts, and he is trying...

Let's also not forget we lost Cummings for the season, and we would have 1 or 2 wins (maybe) if he was playing, he is a warrior. That 4-int TX game for Cozart would have been a W for KU if Cummings was playing.

Look to the future. Beaty is the "right" kind of hire, working alongside Bowen, for KU. The powerful alums need to take a chill pill, unless they want to go "acquire" one of the best coaches in Div.1 like Saban or the OhioSt guy. Give a guy time. Beaty is not a blowhard like Weis. Beaty is not a peculiarity like Gill.

@ralster

Got to agree although I think you could put Gale Sayers on this team and it would still go 0-fer.

@jaybate-1.0 Plus, he'd get hurt.

The other thing about Gill was former players said the weights/conditioning was "optional". That is a direct quote at the time, and it absolutely goes a long way to explain the embarrassing 4th qtrs. under Gill. In that area, Weis at least restored some football sense by bringing in strength & conditioning pros. Weis's failures are many, and chiefly not having the type of O-line to run his (or any) type of offense...its a problem we are still saddled with.

My MAIN point to KU football fans is to stay analytical: watch each play, and see what the breakdown is/was. NO WAY this year's D is anything like last year's D. I said last year that we had a middle-of-the-pack BigXII defense last year, but an incompetent offense, largely due to the O-line. Well, those kids are gone-- Beaty is teaching a bunch of frosh. Like the announcers said during the IowaState game, these frosh will be bigger, stronger, and smart veterans 2-3 years from now, and all this playing time is building them towards something better.

Do not underestimate the importance of the O-line, as you cannot run plays/sustain drives/rest the defense/get close enough to score without the O-line. The Chiefs are finding out, yet again, that the talents of Alex Smith, Jamaal Charles, Maclin, the TE, etc., are being wasted due to incompetent O-line play. I purposely chose an NFL example to make this point, as those are all pro-level players, but you see how important the O-line is. Picking on the Chiefs again, they cant use their weapons to the extent to be able to win games. Cant blame Alex Smith for happy feet or bailing on the play, as its been drilled into him repeatedly that he has no time. Ask Jamaal Charles about the KC O-line...

Now carry these football concepts over to a bldg. blocks program like KU and see the job Beaty is facing. Got to find decent O-line. And all that "speed" on D is getting counter-treyed to death, but the kids will learn...best thing about frosh is they become soph and juniors...

No, David Beaty is not on the football "hot seat". He should be on the hot seat in his 3rd or 4th season.

Now, if KU fans think Beaty should be on the hot seat after 3 or 4 games, then that is those fans' problem. I could spin it and say "oh, so we are now down to giving GIll only 2yrs, Weis 2yrs, Bowen half a season...and Beaty only 3-4 games?" Which direction is THAT logic going? Why? Are we really ignoring the natural impact that happens when we lose Heeney, Stowers, McDonald, Shepard, TE, WR, 1 good O-lineman, Pierson, Sims...and Cummings?

This "hot seat" stuff shouldn't even be asked, because it simply is irrational to do so within the context of the roster talent, almost none of which is to be blamed on Beaty. Blame him about 3+ years from now, if he actually deserves blame at that point.

@ralster said:

The other thing about Gill was former players said the weights/conditioning was "optional". That is a direct quote at the time,

I have vague recall of that report (though not its timing) and having known a guy that played 5 years at Nebraska for Osborne I have always believed that the weights optional report was either psy-ops used during an apparent media campaign to run Gill, or Gill or former players talking tongue in cheek and some reporter reporting it straight to stick it to Gill.

Weights appeared about as optional at Nebraska under Osborne as a corn picker on a combine at harvest time.

Coaching fruit doesn't usually fall far from a tree.

@ralster It's going to be hard to watch each play this Saturday - my eyes aren't that fast anymore! To make matters worse, I read an article in the local paper this morning that said that Seth Russell (Baylor's Qb) had originally committed to KU. :cry:

@jaybate-1.0

Got to agree although I think you could put Gale Sayers on this team and it would still go 0-fer.

Seeing as Gale Sayers is 72 (a quick 72, but 72 nonetheless) and has had some significant knee surgeries, I don't think he would be the game breaker he was 50+ years ago. Riggins might still have some carries in him, but I don't think he could do it every week.

All jest, no malice.

@nuleafjhawk Seth Russell originally committed to Turner Gill in 2012. When Charlie Weis got Dayne Crist and Jake Heaps to commit, he told Seth Russell to look elsewhere. I don't know if he assumed Cozart would follow Grunhard to KU, but I have to believe that's why you tell another QB to look elsewhere that would replace a QB 3 years down the road. In the Charlie Weis plan, I believe this was supposed to be the year Cozart took over. Charlie's plan so damn awful he had to have lied to Zenger aboyt during the interview.

@ralster

This “hot seat” stuff shouldn’t even be asked, because it simply is irrational to do so within the context of the roster talent, almost none of which is to be blamed on Beaty. Blame him about 3+ years from now, if he actually deserves blame at that point.

I couldn't agree with you more. This "hot seat" talk after 3 games is what has gotten KU where he is. Anyone with football knowledge knows this is a 3-5 year plan and it will take every bit of it to turn the program around.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Agreed. Charlie's entire plan became unhinged when he arrived and realized he had a "pile-o-crap" Oline (& WRs) which absolutely didn't allow him to run HIS pro-style offense, which means protecting the QB to allow those beautiful TE seam routes and other pro-style fun to happen. If one thinks about it, the pro style offense of a few years ago could be devastating as it scores, controls clock, and runs over people. It could have limited the touches of the high powered airshows we have in the bigXII. But if you cant protect your "pocket" passers (Crist & Heaps), it's doomed. If and when your QB actually hits his receiver in the hands, and its dropsy, dropsy, dropsy...its totally doomed.

The beginning of the end for Weis was when he realized he'd have to scrap his playbook and start from zero. That meant instantly about every other coach in the BigXII was better than him in the college game, and in the BigXII specifically. Then, his stubbornness and ego didn't allow him to succeed on his improvise-on-the-fly Plan B, and a perfect example is keeping Cozart on the field after his 4th int. in the extremely winnable game vs TX. I was there. Cummings would have won that game. And, Cummings would have had a MAJOR chip on his shoulder to beat TX, to show that he was a TX kid who was looked over by the TX schools. Classic case of a TX 2- or 3-star kid that actually CAN play. He had 1 miscue late vs TCU, or KU would have beat TCU last season, remarkably.

I like the fact that maybe Cozart has turned the corner the last 2 games (eventhough we lost, the QB stats are a step in the right direction), and "gets it", that is great, and I don't want to sound like I've permanently condemned Cozart.

My guess is Beaty is already on some TX 2- and 3-star O-linemen, who, would outplay 2 & 3star guys from about every state not named Pennsylvania and Florida. We need about 8 of such guys.

Hey, look at the bright side: Our WRs can actually catch the damn ball this year, and 1 finally scored a recv TD! Now protect Cozart better, and run-block better for Kinner and Mann, and we may become a serviceable O by year's end? Next year?

Baby steps.

@ralster Charlie's system can work in the college game. Alabama, LSU, Wisconsin, Michigan St., Stanford, Florida St. all run pro style very successfully.

I wouldn't have been opposed to another pro style coach because getting west Kansas farm boys as the foundation of the OLine. Local farmboys is what Nebraska did under Osborne, and what Wisconsin currently does. Pro style still works in college, but like any system it takes time to get the right personnel in place to run that system.

I'm not saying he is great, but no way should he have a "hot seat". Give the man some time!