🏀 KuBuckets Archive

A couple days ago, one of the headlines linked to a story talking about Andrew White coming back from a hip pointer., after missing three games.

When asked about rumors of transferring, he indicated something to the effect that it would be selfish of him to think about transferring during the season; that all of his focus was on practicing hard, trying to help the team and hoping Coach Self would call on him some time. He seemed to put a very optimistic spin on things, but seemed also not to categorically say he would not transfer.

I thought this was an interesting, candid and forthright way for a young man to deal with the issue and wanted to compliment AW3 for doing it that way.

It seems only fair in an era when coaches admit to over recruiting some to avoid being left shorthanded by transfers and departures that players be able to leave transfer on the table, while simultaneously trying their best to make the rotation.

It seems wrong to make kids deny they will transfer for the sake of appearances, when transfer simply depends on a lot of unforeseeable outcomes during the course of play and recruiting.

Part of me wishes no one ever had to transfer.

But another part of me thinks players saying they are trying their best and hoping to please a coach, but keeping their transfer options open, is at least a small step forward for players interests, if not rights.

What the game needs, and needs most urgently, is a new rule permitting players to transfer without having to sit out a following season, whenever they want.

I, for one board rat, believe it will be better for coaches and better for players in terms of enabling honesty among coaches and players.

Who wouldn't love a LeBron like production on espn with some college transfer saying "I am taking my talents to Cameron Indoor".....

@Kip_McSmithers, yes, Kip, but any move we make in this media connected and hyped era of the game has that possibility. I still think the net is benefit and not cost. But you can bet that what you say will occur. Its a cost I am willing to bear. Nothing worthwhile comes without a cost.

It seems that AW3 may end up the best Self coached-up player we've had....

He's taken one directly from the coach's playbook. It doesn't get any clearer (and unclearer) than this:

“In my situation, I made a mistake before when I was coaching at Illinois,” he said. “When I first got the job, I made a mistake. I said I was in it for the long haul, and I totally meant it, but I only stayed three years. I learned from then that you don’t really say anything directly. Because you never know. But anybody who knows me knows I’m totally locked in where I’m at.”

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/bill-self-kansas-jayhawks-basketball-coach-nba-head-coaching-job-honest-080613 ↗

@jaybate : I like the aspect of more rights for the players, but there's no way that scenario turns out good.

I too hate the fact that good players ride the pine for KU and if they transfer they are stuck with sitting out a year. But would you rather them end up with a college career like BMacs high school list?? Would you be ok with watching them transfer every year because they didn't like it when the coach benched them for throwing up a three from 48ft with 32 seconds on the shot clock? Or because they don't think their current team is going to cut it so I'll just go somewhere else. How would teams know how many recruits they need to target with rules like that?

I think there needs to be a year waiting period for transfers otherwise recruiting will turn into what has become our political system - rather than get elected, work for 3 years, and worry about election year your 4th (or 6th) they cycle encompasses an entire term. If guys were able to leave they would never stop being recruited. We also wouldn't have held onto guys like Travis Releford. If Trel baby was never an intrigral part of the Jayhawks my life wouldn't be complete.

I just read 2/3rd's of what you wrote jaybate. We're turning a new leaf.

@jaybate 1.0 I think that rule change is coming. The rule where players can transfer after they complete their degree has worked well. That seems to have been a test case. It hasn't been complete chaos, which I think some were worried about.

I think the only tweak would need to be adjusting the late signing period for incoming freshmen. Transfers would need to be given a window of time to explore and exercise their intentions, but schools losing (or gaining) players would also need the flexibility to fill out rosters with transfers and/or recruits. It would be severely unfair if, for instance, a player could transfer and then cost a player at his new school their scholarship to make room for the transferring player.

The only other tweak I would make is that if a coach left school X, he could not take his roster with him without the previous school's permission. This would prevent schools from hiring Coach X to resurrect their program, knowing that Coach X would bring with him a few of his select players.

@justanotherfan I would say every coach in the NCAA being against the current graduate transfer rule doesn't bode well for an entire shift to the NCAA's platform. There's too much academic fraud that could take place. It's one thing to reward a kid for graduating early it's entirely different to make a coach have to recruit his own players again after every season. Can you imagine how soft the NCAA would become? With the ego's of kids today any time someone got yelled at they would threaten transfer. It would genuinely be the worst thing that could ever happen to KU and college basketball - it would create two divisions within D-1: The schools where the Relefords, Withey's, Johnsons, Whites, et all go freshman and sophomore year and the 20 or so elite programs who pick off the best players from these sub D-1 programs as they become good enough to produce at an elite level.

I, for one, enjoy watching the NCAA tournament where a mid major of jr's and sr's can make deep runs. A no transfer rule will never happen. I bet the graduation trasnfer rule ends this year or next as well.

The best solution is the one proposed where a Committee of NBA managers select 5-10 players every year that are deemed ready for the NBA and they would be eligible to be drafted out of high school; the rest would have to wait until they are 3 years remove from high school before being eligible.

Not having the urgency of immediate playtime to prepare for the NBA, players would be more open to bide their time, polish their skill until they are eligible.

Yes, we would not see some of the super stars, but the teams, with the added experience would be much better and the level of play would be higher.

If we're talking best solutions then it is in the form of God Bilas - Let NBA teams draft whoever they want out of high school. Create it like the European system where a team has rights to a player and when they feel that player is ready they can call him up ( I know it's a bit different but you understand what I'm getting at). Teams are not allowed to obtain rights until after the season has finished and the team has a deadline as to when they need to declare if they're bringing the player up or not. It would behoove GM's to be forthright with the schools and let them know intentions early as the last thing they want to do is stunt the growth of the player.

Start letting these guys maximize their earning potential if their employer deems them worthy.

This is the best - and only answer.

God bless Jay Bilas.

@iowajayhawk2005 After every good season, mid major teams have to re-recruit their coaches and sign them to bigger contracts? Why? Because the major conference schools come calling. Why should the players be treated differently, particularly since their scholarship can be revoked at any time?

Most people believe that scholarships are guaranteed for 4 years. This is incorrect. They must be renewed each year. Most of the time, that's a mere formality, but there are plenty of situations each year where scholarships are not renewed for certain players. If your scholarship is not renewed you have four basic choices - either pick up the tab to stay at your current school, transfer out of Division 1, transfer to another D1 school (and sit out) or transfer in D1 and apply for a waiver to play immediately and hope the NCAA rules in your favor. How is that fair?

Good read about transfers from Pete Thamel : INSIDE COLLEGE BASKETBALL

Pete Thamel : Transfers ↗

Liked this quote: "It's a very dysfunctional culture these kids belong to," said the Louisville coach Rick Pitino. "They're starved for attention. If I take away Twitter or their phones, it's like an addictive drug. They need constant recognition. It's very sad."

First off - if you're a non scholarship player you don't have to sit out a year in college basketball if I remember correctly. Secondly - a professional coach paid millions is the exact opposite of an amateur athlete. If you want to talk about paying players I'm all for it. 100%. but these are not paid players. Your idea would ruin college basketball and all amateur sports and is literally probably the last thing the NCAA would ever do so it's a moot point.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/blog/_/name/katz_andy/id/9258608/coaches-push-changes-transfer-rule-college-basketball ↗

Learn something - transfer rules are going to change to be more stringent with a bit more control given back to the player.

@jaybate 1.0 I want to believe AW3 is a great kid, with a great family, and will ultimately stay with Self over the 4 yr haul. I think Self is teaching these kids more than bball. AW3 is a perfect recruit for Self's system. It will surprise me a bit if he transfers. The kid's work ethic is above most other players. He has great attitude and is smart. If he works with Self he is guaranteed a degree, and just maybe a good shot at the NBA. Self is one of those "patience pays" kind of coaches. I would refer some to Releford. I think AW3 might be better than Releford when it's all over. It may not appear so much now, but time will tell.

@iowajayhawk2005, learn something--no single rule change save for putting you in charge could wreck college basketball. :-)

Seriously, get used to me having fun with you now. :-)

@iowajayhawk2005 If a paid professional coach is the exact opposite, why should they be given more freedom?

That's like saying that a college student that takes an internship cannot then leave that internship for a different internship if they are not happy with the program they are in. That would not fly in the work world.

If you're paid, you can be restricted on a much higher level than if you are not. I have a full time job. My hours are pretty well set. I have to take vacation if I want time off. Occasionally my company hires interns (unpaid students). We set their schedule around their classes. They are not required to take vacation when they want time off. They can just call or email to say they need to take the day off. All they have to do is meet their curriculum requirements. I can't put more restrictions on them because they are not employees.

Currently, players are not being paid, so the restrictions should be low, not high. Coaches are paid, so they should have higher restrictions, not less.

@truehawk93 copy and paste.

@justanotherfan a ripping good response to corn belt jay.

This is too dumb to even dive into. You can continue to live in a hypothetical world that will never happen - the NCAA and the incredible majority of college coaches including Bill Self want more stringent policies. Not less.

@jaybate if you're going to be my nemesis please continue with your short posts - I won't read anything else. ThNxXx

First, let's stop pretending that Student Athletes don't get paid; they do, very handsomely.

Here is an article from Forbes explain how much athletes really get:

Forbes Link ↗

Here is another one that outlines the money football players get paid every year:

How Much Football players get paid in cash ↗

Closer to home, the published cost to attend KU as an out of sate student is $32K which covers the tuition, room and board for 2 semesters. Now add Summer session and the figure becomes $45K. Now, the apartments players have are considerably nicer than those the average student gets; and the food is order of magnitude better and specially prepared for them under direct supervision of the training staff. Now we are close to $55K.

And we have not even began to address the cost of having the best coaching staff and the best trainer in the business; any one of us paying for that would be easily looking at $20k per year; so we are now at $75K per year. Assuming a student stays for 4 years, this translates to $300K or $375K if he stays 5 years like many do; this figure is considerably lower than the one Forbes came up with.

The student athlete can graduate with zero debt and having spent zero out of pocket money. How many of us can says we got those benefits? I certainly cannot.

@JayHawkFanToo I was just starting to enjoy the banter between jb & iowa when I stumbled upon an earlier exchange that was somewhat of an off color/borderline profane post from the latter. For years I enjoyed reading jaybate chewing & spitting out these guys at kusports like he was dueling with an unarmed man so to speak, with his articulate mastery of the English language. Evidently this guy has a touch button that the old guy triggers, & as well as being so much about himself & his own opinions, plus has crossed the line on respectfulness with many of our other board rats on several different threads. More than likely he is merely a misery or ksu or cyclone closet (not the Diceman's Vaseline closet) fan, solely on a self imposed mission to disrupt our site. One thing for damn sure, emotion swiftly overcomes them & they eventually expose themselves and their meager jealous existence. Damn, & I thought we'd get to read some really good humor from jb for at least awhile. This guy will likely be gone too quickly for that to happen now. Oh well, someone else will again step up as they always do. Some people have something to say, & some people have to say something.

I always base my views on issues like this by following the money trail. It certainly keeps things simple and in perspective.

We can argue about whether college student-athletes are "pros" or "amateurs" until we are blue in the face. Whatever the result, nothing is resolved.

Student-athletes have very little financial resources, so they can afford little or no agency services... I'm talking mostly about legal services here. If they hire sports agents, they violate their contractual agreement with the NCAA. No one in America is prevented from hiring legal agents because civil and human liberties are protected in this country.

Since these athletes can't take a formidable legal battle to the NCAA, their ability to fend off control from regulation is extremely limited (or non-existent).

In commercial matters, this is changing because lawyers see potential in working for potential court payout victories, especially if this can reach a class-action status. Also... some athletes that have gone on to commercial success beyond college are bringing in their expensive lawyers to challenge the NCAA on current and retro-active actions.

The NCAA is becoming like the Dutch trying to keep all their fingers in the dike. The water is rising and most believe eventually the NCAA will make changes to prevent their own drowning... but how to bend without breaking?

This is my simpleton view.

@iowajayhawk2005 Of course the coaches and NCAA want more stringent policies. They are the group in power. The status quo works to their advantage - why would they want that to change. It is not in their interests.

However, the story of this country is one of making sure that those in power cannot abuse that power, or utilize that power in such a way as to limit the choice of those over whom they hold that power.

Take professional baseball for example. Once upon a time, a player was the property of the team that drafted him. Period. End of story. Then along came Curt Flood, who challenged the reserve clause. Thus began what we know today as free agency. Did the owners want free agency? Of course not. Does free agency exist? Absolutely.

So let's look at the NCAA. The house of cards is crumbling. It won't fall today, won't fall tomorrow. But mark my words, the end of the NCAA is coming.

Just last year, EA Sports settled a lawsuit with former student athletes and agreed to stop making the NCAA Football video game series. Did the NCAA, which receives licensing fees for EA Sports to make the game, want EA to 1) stop making the game and 2) leave them to defend the lawsuit alone? I bet not. Did it happen? Youbetcha.

Last fall the NCAA shut down its NCAA store ↗. Do you think they wanted to shut down that revenue stream?

Slowly but surely, the NCAA is losing control over the players that generate the revenue that it profits from.

Right now, a student on an academic scholarship can transfer to any school he or she wants at any time with no restrictions. Most schools offer transfer scholarships, so a student could, if they were academically gifted, transfer from one institution to another as a student without forfeiting any scholarship money. Unless they are an athlete.

Just a hunch, but that's probably going to change, too.

@justanotherfan, as usual, your clarity on the issue invigorates me. And your patient determination to stay on topic and wade through oversimplifications and make a reasoned case makes these old bones want to keep biting into sport and not stop. Thanks for taking the time.

@drgnslayr

A student athlete can in fact retain an attorney for legal matters and many do, such as when they get a DUI or get caught doing something they should not be doing in the first place; there is absolutely no limits on that. Remember how many attorneys Brock Berglund had?

However, if they hire a sports agent to represent them in their sport, then they are no longer amateur and hence ineligible to compete in college sports. Even players considering entering the draft can always come back if they change their minds, provide they do not hire an agent; once they do is game over.

Top athletes have a lot more opportunities than the average student has, They can chose form literally hundreds of schools and whatever school they select, they do it knowing full well the advantages and disadvantages. The average student very seldom has this choice, If you are extremely gifted you might get scholarship offers but none are as good as the ones athletes get. Most student are limited to the state school or the one the parents can afford.

In short. athlete have a lot more options than the average student...and the average student is a lot lower maintenance than the average athlete, and actually has to pay to go to school.

@globaljaybird, cornbeltjay's claiming to hate one our own players (Brannen Greene) was kind of unsubtle, wasn't it? :-) But who can say about such posters?

@jaybate 1.0 When it quacks it usually is.

@jaybate 1.0 About as subtle as hugging a foul while holding a meat cleaver.

My take on the AW3 situation: I thought it might be in his best interest to take a red shirt this season, and said so last spring or summer. Depending on what happens with Brannen Greene and Selden (in the way of late spring departure) it still might be in White's best interest to consider a red shirt (a la Releford and Little). Like HEM, I have always maintained a belief that AW3 will eventually evolve into a major contributor in Winning Jayhawk Hoops. A fifth year player, he stands a much better shot at serious minutes as a 22/23 year old player, the savvy kid whom Self relies on. The flaw in my thesis lies within the realm of Bill Self's future recruiting, to wit, just how many one-and-done projects he brings aboard...recruits who are "almost" guaranteed playing time. I see our coaching staff standing at the brink of bigtime decision making regarding recruiting philosophy. Can KU continue to bench outstanding potential talent without disrupting team unity with a growing array of disgruntled attitudes?

So the NCAA will change transfer rules because it's the American way? Uhhhh?

You're thinking entirely too micro in a macro sense. The NCAA covers all sports - not just basketball. They don't have different transfer rules for all their sports so a change to one would be a change to all. The NCAA itself is not designed to make money but, much like the NFL, MLB, NBA etc. it is designed to make the schools money. College sports is an absolute business and brings in ridiculous amounts of money to our schools - these school presidents hide behind the guise of the NCAA as proof of their amateurism in order to collect all the profit. It is simply the puppet controlled by the machine.

As it stands - I whole heartedly agree with you that the NCAA will have an eventual demise. The reason for this is simply that the big conferences are getting greedy and where the NCAA is trying to hold together a semblance of amateurism the Presidents want the sports business to make them even more money. The NCAA's eventual downfall will simply be that the smaller schools have just as much say as the larger ones. Look at conference realignment - there are roughly 20-30 schools pulling the strings and the rest are sitting around watching.

So this brings me to my point - as long as the NCAA exists the transfer rule will never change. Why? because the other 300 schools (all who have an equal voice) would be losing there best players and therefore profit potential. Those runs to the NCAA tournament will disapear. The conference title games will simply be a holding spot to get absolutely destroyed by a power conference. The biggest thing to happen in the Tourni would be a 12 seed beating a 5 and even that would be rare. These small schools look at Gonzaga, Butler, VCU and ALL know if they can become one of those schools they're in line to make MILLIONS - you really think they'd vote against themselves?

I recently spoke with a significant Michigan St. booster about the NCAA while watching the Rose Bowl and he was addimit that the word among AD's is the inevitability of 6 power conferences. It may be coming sooner then any of us wish to realize. The premise of these self governed 6 power conferences is the same reason the NCAA exists - to make them more money. Cut out the teams who are holding the blue blood's profit potential back by looking out for their own. Maybe then you'll see your transfer rule but I'm sure then there will be a clause in athletes scholarships that requires them to pay for their previous schooling or something in order to make them stay.

tl;dr - There's too much power held by small schools in NCAA protecting their profit potential to allow transfer changes. This will be the downfall of the NCAA. All that matters is football anyways.

@iowajayhawk2005 Ironically, we have come to a place of agreement. That truly is the American way.

Six power conferences will eventually rule the land. When that happens (and the NCAA is either destroyed or pushed to the brink of relevance) those power six conferences will allow transfers, both between non-power 6 schools and also between the power 6.

There will be rules regarding transfers (i.e. things like no more than one transfer without sitting out to prevent a player from simply school hopping), but once the elephant in the room is exposed (i.e. that the sports are a profit making engine) many of the sports specific rules governing transfers and eligibility will disappear, as will many of the recruiting restrictions. This will be in all sports that the Power Six participate in, not just football and basketball.

@justanoterfan here here!

@justanotherfan : Who in your scenario is in charge of non-revenue sports? The P6 or the NCAA?

@jaybate 1.0 It's better for both of us if he does transfer. Better for him because the kid can play. Better for us because we have quite a log jam with Selden, Greene, and Francamp. Oubre is coming in. If Embiid stays another year, which I think there is a good chance he will, we're looking at lineup with 5-Embiid 4-Alexander, 3 Ellis, 2-Oubre/Greene/Francamp with Frankentharpe at the point. Even if Embiid goes, I could see Myles Turner signing to play the 5.
There just isn't room at the inn. It's sad, because AW3 has worked harder than other player on that team, and he just can't crack that lineup. Several years ago, he would've been one of our stars.

@KUSTEVE

Are you writing off Tharpe ? You know he is only a Junior, right? Unless something dramatically changes and we ignore precedent, Tharpe will be the starting PG next season.

@Kip_McSmithers the Power Six would be in charge of all sports that they participate in. The revenue generated from football and basketball would pay for the other sports, but instead of splitting the pot 350 ways, you split it 80 ways.

!andrewhitespotting.jpg ↗

AW3 isn't MIA... he's in the Ukraine playing world ball!

AW3 was I think a top 50 recruit, maybe 56 just going from memory? At some point you'd expect a top 50 recruit with several years of experience to be better than the freshman stud correct? Wiggins, ok sure, maybe you won't get to surpass the raw talent of Wiggins just with experience. Oubre also seems like a pretty rare talent though, so you gotta think a red shirt would be in the cards if he stays. Still, I think if AW3 is to redshirt and stay at KU he's talented enough that eventually he'll be an option for this team. As we've seen, it can be a little rough at times when freshman, no matter how talented, are asked to run the team. Very excited for the next few years as we (hopefully) get to see guys like CF, Greene, Mason and Selden grow.

I think what matters most for AW3 is that he continues to develop his game. Whether or not he earns big minutes in the future is up to him and the talent we recruit. But as long as he is building strength and improving his game he'll find a well-paid job after KU... perhaps in the Ukraine! (or more realistic, Europe).

That's what I care about the most for players like AW3. And I hope he snags a diploma while in Lawrence. Those tend to come in handy later, too!