🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Wow

yep just read it. John Scheyer is the leader to replace him - - assistant/former player after this Season. - - Jeff Goodman and multiple sources reporting , and announcement soon

Considering the situation in Boston right now, I'd be surprised if Duke doesn't at least inquire about Stevens interest in returning to college.

ya find of kind of interesting this comes down the same time the hole Stevans thing is going on in Boston. Yet he is replacing Ainge upstairs. Guess it all boils down to if he wants to come back to College Basketball

Kind of Amusing reading the NC boards , them talking about ALL were gonna here ALL Season is about K's retirement and how he has to have his farewell all year lol. Maybe they need to look in the mirror , All we heard last year was Roys good bye farewell fan fare - his final year - - One poster said GOD hope we don't do anything for him when they come to Chapel Hill lmao - - ahh the love

Sure gonna be different without Roy this year and K next year Curious how recruiting goes ? - -IF Brad does come back AND he is hired by DUKE I don't think you'll see much of a drop at all - - if it's Scheyer or whoever it's gonna have to be a wait and see with them - -gonna be interesting for sure

@jayballer67 said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

ya find of kind of interesting this comes down the same time the hole Stevans thing is going on in Boston. Yet he is replacing Ainge upstairs. Guess it all boils down to if he wants to come back to College Basketball

Kind of Amusing reading the NC boards , them talking about ALL were gonna here ALL Season is about K's retirement and how he has to have his farewell all year lol. Maybe they need to look in the mirror , All we heard last year was Roys good bye farewell fan fare - his final year - - One poster said GOD hope we don't do anything for him when they come to Chapel Hill lmao - - ahh the love

Sure gonna be different without Roy this year and K next year Curious how recruiting goes ? - -IF Brad does come back AND he is hired by DUKE I don't think you'll see much of a drop at all - - if it's Scheyer or whoever it's gonna have to be a wait and see with them - -gonna be interesting for sure

It will be scheyer Taken over

@JAYHAWKFAN214 said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@jayballer67 said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

ya find of kind of interesting this comes down the same time the hole Stevans thing is going on in Boston. Yet he is replacing Ainge upstairs. Guess it all boils down to if he wants to come back to College Basketball

Kind of Amusing reading the NC boards , them talking about ALL were gonna here ALL Season is about K's retirement and how he has to have his farewell all year lol. Maybe they need to look in the mirror , All we heard last year was Roys good bye farewell fan fare - his final year - - One poster said GOD hope we don't do anything for him when they come to Chapel Hill lmao - - ahh the love

Sure gonna be different without Roy this year and K next year Curious how recruiting goes ? - -IF Brad does come back AND he is hired by DUKE I don't think you'll see much of a drop at all - - if it's Scheyer or whoever it's gonna have to be a wait and see with them - -gonna be interesting for sure

It will be scheyer Taken over

ya I know - -he is already in place to take over. - -they talked to outside people including talking to Tommy Amaker - -BUT Scheyer will be the associate Coach in waiting and will take over in 2022.

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

Considering the situation in Boston right now, I'd be surprised if Duke doesn't at least inquire about Stevens interest in returning to college.

NOBODY wants to coach college over NBA anymore. In both jobs, you are dealing with young kids full of themselves. However, with college, you have to kiss their butts, kiss their parents' butts, pay them under the table instead of in the open, lose free agents without a financial negotiation, etc.

College basketball is all but dead......wait until they start paying these yahoos

@BigBad said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

Considering the situation in Boston right now, I'd be surprised if Duke doesn't at least inquire about Stevens interest in returning to college.

NOBODY wants to coach college over NBA anymore. In both jobs, you are dealing with young kids full of themselves. However, with college, you have to kiss their butts, kiss their parents' butts, pay them under the table instead of in the open, lose free agents without a financial negotiation, etc.

College basketball is all but dead......wait until they start paying these yahoos

You keep thinking that. Those young players in the NBA have zero power to influence coaching hires. Zion Williamson has zero input on who the Pelicans coach is at this point because he's not at that level of star power yet. The guys with power to influence coaching hires in the NBA are the max contract guys who make All-NBA every year.

In college, of a player's ego gets too big, they're kicked to the curb. There's a reason Quentin Grimes and Bryce Thompson didn't return for second seasons at KU and it was 100% Bill Self kicking them to the curb because of ego's getting too inflated.

@Texas-Hawk-10
So Adidas money didn't happen?
How is recruiting going now? Seems Self's style is to throw interest at any and every player out there.
About 90% of these kids don't care ONE BIT about getting a degree.
Fan bases who want it to survive think that paying them will save it.

Watching kids develop and grow as basketball players and people is gone.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still going to watch but if we have roster turnover every year I'll watch less and less and I wont be alone.

@BigBad said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@Texas-Hawk-10
So Adidas money didn't happen?
How is recruiting going now? Seems Self's style is to throw interest at any and every player out there.
About 90% of these kids don't care ONE BIT about getting a degree.
Fan bases who want it to survive think that paying them will save it.

Watching kids develop and grow as basketball players and people is gone.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still going to watch but if we have roster turnover every year I'll watch less and less and I wont be alone.

If you think a coach kissing ass in college is a new concept that originated with Adidas/Nike/Under Armour, I can't help you there. College coaching is a sales job that involves kissing ass because that's what sales is all about. Once a player is committed, a coach no longer has to kiss anyone's ass in regards to a player or their family like we've seen in the past 3 years with Self kicking Grimes and Thompson to curb because he was done kissing ass as soon as those kids arrived on campus.

Bill Self has always done a helluva job developing kids who didn't arrive in college as NBA prospects into NBA prospects so if a kid doesn't have the patience to let that system work, then Self and KU don't need those players.

@Texas-Hawk-10
Damn. Straight.

How many kids now will want to play for Self now that Roy and K (after this year) are gone. Even if it’s for one year. We will be a transfer destination for a lot of good players who want to play under an active HOF guy and under the cathedral roof of Allen field house.

@BeddieKU23 no more brohood? 😢🥳 I'm anxious to see how this year goes for him. He kinda gave up last year, I thought.

@Bosthawk said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@Texas-Hawk-10
Damn. Straight.

How many kids now will want to play for Self now that Roy and K (after this year) are gone. Even if it’s for one year. We will be a transfer destination for a lot of good players who want to play under an active HOF guy and under the cathedral roof of Allen field house.

I don't see Self leaning as heavily into the transfer market once the NCAA issues clear up and are in the rearview mirror. That's the biggest reason why KU's recruitment is down right now and why Self is putting more effort into transfers.

K doing a full farewell tour is the most Coach K thing ever.

Man, the UNC dook rivalry just won't be the same in 2022-3. Scheyer v. Hubert just doesn't have the same juice.

When a legendary coach retires, hiring his replacement from the "family" isn't always the best move.

Check out this list of ten guys who replaced the legends. This article is almost ten years old, but still timely. (Note the first name on the list.)

https://www.bleacherreport.com/articles/1332972-ollie-replaces-calhoun-at-uconn-how-10-other-famous-coaches-successors-fared/ ↗

@nwhawkfan totally agree. It's insane to me neither Duke or UNC reached outside "the family" in any meaningful way.

Just think we can give the new guy his first loss

@FarmerJayhawk couldn’t agree more! Coach K can’t go quietly like Roy. Partially because Roy is incredibly classy and Coach K is an arrogant, self righteous ego maniac. He just has to have one more time around the sun when he can hear his name constantly even though it will be a distraction for his own players, fans, alumni. He’s a horrific role model and a worse person and I hope that Duke is as bad this year as they were last year to spoil his self centered swan song.

How much longer does Jim Boeheim hang in there? Does he retire whenever Buddy leaves the program in 1-2 years?

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

How much longer does Jim Boeheim hang in there? Does he retire whenever Buddy leaves the program in 1-2 years?

I would have to think Ultimate tops would be 5 at the most. I think him seeing Roy & K retiting might get him to thinking about it even more. I didn't realize K was 74 yrs old, Bilas was talking about it today on ESPN

@FarmerJayhawk said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

K doing a full farewell tour is the most Coach K thing ever.

Man, the UNC dook rivalry just won't be the same in 2022-3. Scheyer v. Hubert just doesn't have the same juice.

These programs just might slip with these different Coach's , we already started to see NC slipping some and now I think Duke will drop off somewhat also

@joeloveshawks I read that as "hearing his name consonantly"

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

How much longer does Jim Boeheim hang in there?

At least as long as it takes for Coach K to finish his farewell tour. Then he can have the spotlight all to himself when he embarks on his.

@tis4tim said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

Then he can have the spotlight all to himself when he embarks on his.

So...will Boeheim whine twice as much to fill the void?

@FarmerJayhawk said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@nwhawkfan totally agree. It’s insane to me neither Duke or UNC reached outside “the family” in any meaningful way.

A lot to think about here.

First... It is damn hard to come into a program after a legend. The expectations are crazy and fans will quickly turn on the new coach, especially an outsider.

Second... It is safer to pick an insider who already knows where the bodies are buried and is willing to keep them buried. Big risk when you bring in an outsider... things don't go well... and upon departure the outsider decides to expose the graveyard.

@drgnslayr That first one is still what amazes me most about self. As much as I hate Dickie V I think it was him who told bill not to take this job because he’d never replace Roy. Instead he’s had a more successful career here than Roy himself. We as Kansas fans are very spoiled and we should be careful to remember it. Bill WONT stay forever.

It's very hard to replace a legend, whether you are inside or outside the family. Expectations are high. Margins are thin. Every word you say, every interview, every in game decision, every recruit you get (or miss), it is all evaluated against the fantasy of the previous coach. Oh, former coach wouldn't have done that. Former coach doesn't lose that game. Former coach closes the deal on that recruit. Former coach... on and on and on.

If Hubert Davis loses 8 games this year, all 8 will be blown up like the end of the world (reminder that UNC went 18-11 this past season). But people will suddenly act as if Roy Williams hadn't lost a game in his last five years coaching after every UNC loss. That's just the nature of replacing a legend.

Same thing will happen at Duke when Coach K leaves, and at Syracuse when Boeheim leaves.

I wonder if Scheyer will be a good coach. Maybe Duke actually gets better. UVA already was dominating the conference. Duke hadn't won the ACC in 10 years.

2010 Duke, Maryland

2011 North Carolina

2012 North Carolina

2013 Miami

2014 Virginia

2015 Virginia

2016 North Carolina

2017 North Carolina

2018 Virginia

2019 Virginia, North Carolina

2020 Florida State

2021 Virginia

@approxinfinity

After viewing your 10-yr history of the ACC it made me think this might be somewhat of an indicator on which coaching style is most-successful... defense or offense-oriented.

It's 5 - 5 comparing Virginia and UNC with both winning a NC. Hard to imagine another two teams to compare where the philosophy is so different.

I know fans like to see offense... but do they like to see it be just a horse race to the finish line? I get so frustrated when our defense stinks and we can't stop a team from scoring.

I think it speaks to building with upperclassmen vs flipping burger boys. You know Roy had 8 McDonalds All Americans over 2018-2020, and he said his team last year was his least talented over? Lol.

For a while it worked when he had less attrition, but you can't build a return core out of McDs any more, 3 of his 4 from last year are leaving. I think that ship permanently sailed this year.
https://www.tarheeltimes.com/basketball/mcdonalds-all-americans.aspx ↗
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021%E2%80%9322_North_Carolina_Tar_Heels_men%27s_basketball_team ↗

I doubt K and Roy like the challenge of the brave new world of the almighty transfer portal.

@justanotherfan said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

It’s very hard to replace a legend, whether you are inside or outside the family. Expectations are high. Margins are thin. Every word you say, every interview, every in game decision, every recruit you get (or miss), it is all evaluated against the fantasy of the previous coach. Oh, former coach wouldn’t have done that. Former coach doesn’t lose that game. Former coach closes the deal on that recruit. Former coach… on and on and on.

Anyone in this situation should, of course, consult Squeaky about whether a mock funeral for the departed coach is a good idea for enhancing his own cred...

From the Rockford paper:

Frazzled by constant comparisons of Weber to Self's coaching, recruiting, personality and even his haberdasher, Weber stepped to the podium with a message.

"This is a funeral. I'm going to throw a funeral. It's the end of Bill Self,' '' Weber said that night. "It's over. There's no more comparing. He's gone. No more talking about it. I'll be honest. I'm fed up with it.''

@mayjay

We really need to have laugh emojis in here. Damn... you gave me a smile that will carry me all through the weekend! Thank you!

@approxinfinity

Thank you! I wanted to post what you posted but thought people are sick of me preaching the same old thing.

I don't see much of a future for "revolving door" teams... like Calipari's teams. Heck... seems to not even have the turnover like he once did but I'm not sure about that. I think his sales pitch of "I'm the guy to get you to the league" has largely worn off as players and their parents are wiser.

To me it seems like every year less skilled underclassmen are trying to jump to the league. Maybe if they start receiving more $ while in college, that will help keep some of them in school longer.

The idea that a kid dominating in HS will be an NBA-quality player after a year in college is just plain nuts, except for the very few exceptions.

This all points back to my approach of going after assistant coaches that are masters in development and looking for development players.

@drgnslayr

Defense oriented teams are going to be less volatile because defense is something you can make work, more or less, regardless of personnel, especially in high school and to some degree college.

Defense first works best in middle school and high school because the talent level of offensive players is generally not high enough to completely upend what you are doing defensively. Even in college, most players can't just overwhelm you with individual offensive skill. That's why you see so many defense first coaches that are successful at the collegiate level. If you can coach defense in high school and college, you have a good baseline for a winning team.

But that introduces something most won't admit - the majority of the winningest college coaches are poor offensive coaches. That's why so few college coaches can succeed in the NBA. They do not have the game planning and creative chops to create something new when the defense takes away their first couple of options.

Recall Roy Williams' last championship team. They ranked 100th in 2P FG%, 154th in 3P%, and 176th in FT%. They were an average or worse shooting team. The only reason they scored at an above average rate is because they led the country in offensive rebounding, which meant they attempted the 4th most shots in the country. They were a pedestrian offensive team that beat people on the glass and was solid defensively (mostly owing to the fact that they were also a top 25 defensive rebounding team). That is a winning formula in college.

Virginia is consistently a very efficient (but slow) offensive team that is among the top 10 in defense (usually top 5). You can do that without NBA talent, and as the talent in D1 basketball has fallen (and will continue to fall), a really good defensive team will be more consistent because there will be fewer and fewer truly dynamic offensive players in the college game.

Look around college hoops. How many truly great offensive players were there? Not many. Probably fewer than 15. And for many of those guys, they were either surrounded by below average talent, or they were coached by a below average coach.

A few months ago we were debating why Trae Young didn't have as much of a positive effect on OU as Cade Cunningham did on OSU. One thing I did not note, that I realized as I have been watching the NBA playoffs is that Trae Young also benefits from having more talented teammates surrounding him. Having great shooters and lob catchers on the floor with him elevates his offensive game, and allows him to elevate the skills of his teammates. In college, Trae Young wasn't surrounded by multiple deadly shooters that could space the floor. Watching him with Atlanta, it's clear they have done a great job of getting him those types of teammates. That level of offensive talent doesn't exist on any college team, so focusing on defense at the collegiate level makes sense.

College is also a lousy place to develop for the NBA, honestly. The teammates usually aren't good enough. The coaching philosophy is different. About the only benefit is that you play a full season with quite a bit of structure and routine, which can be helpful if a player has never had that in their development. I think that's why we will see the most NBA ready talent moving towards the GLeague and other development paths as things continue to progress.

@justanotherfan said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

In college, Trae Young wasn’t surrounded by multiple deadly shooters that could space the floor.

We talked about that a lot! Including comparing Trae to the early Nate Archibald years in KC where he could have had even more assists had other players been able to catch and shoot, and more points himself if his team had significant other threats.

At OU, Trae got the rep of ball hog but the reality was that he seemed better shooting at a high rate, even if out of control, than the guys fumbling his passes or not being able to finish.

@justanotherfan Here's the issue with taking an approach like Virginia's. Because of their slow pace, it leaves them very vulnerable to upsets in in the NCAA Tournament and they've only made it past the 1st weekend 3 times under Bennett in 11 years. His system works great in the regular season, but doesn't lend itself to March success because their margin of error is so much smaller than other top teams.

This is also part of Self's issues in March as well because he tends to prefer a slower tempo with fewer possessions in a game that can keep less talented opponents hanging around. Self's more successful tournament teams tend to be the ones that played at a faster tempo and created more possessions for KU to exploit KU's talent advantage over inferior opponents.

Top college teams going forward need to be uptempo teams that are above average defensively to exploit their talent advantages.

@mayjay did he pass? 🤣 I must have been in the rr.🥴 I do remember dtae “D”ing him up the 2 game.

@Texas-Hawk-10 right? Like Wilt wasn't courted?

@Marco said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@Texas-Hawk-10 right? Like Wilt wasn't courted?

Different eras. I guarantee Wilt was paid to come to KU, but it wasn't Nike or Adidas paying to funnel him to KU.

Coach K and Roy's retirements will not see the needle move recruiting for KU because the people funneling players to Duke and UNC work for Nike and those bagmen will continue funneling players to Nike schools, which KU is not. Adidas bagmen are not going to funnel elite talent to KU again until the IARP ruling is handed down and we know what KU's punishment will be.

The down turn in KU's recruiting happened to begin with the 2019 class which lines up with when the accusations against KU first started popping up. Since then, only 3 top 50 players have committed to KU, and one of those players is already gone.

KU will not have a single 5 star recruit on the roster next year and that has nothing to do with Duke, UNC, or Kentucky's recruiting. The NCAA investigation is what's impacting KU more than anything else right now will continue to until a verdict is handed down.

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

The NCAA investigation is what’s impacting KU more than anything else right now will continue to until a verdict is handed down.

Is that because top shelf talent is shying away from Kansas or is it because Self and crew finally realize it just isn't worth it recruiting most of those "basket cases?"

@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

The NCAA investigation is what’s impacting KU more than anything else right now will continue to until a verdict is handed down.

Is that because top shelf talent is shying away from Kansas or is it because Self and crew finally realize it just isn't worth it recruiting most of those "basket cases?"

Top talent isn't coming to KU right now. In the 2021 recruiting class, KU offered 15 of the top 30 players in the 247 rankings. In 2020, KU offered 16 of the top 30 players so it's not a matter of Self no longer pursuing those kids because he definitely still is, they're just not coming to KU right now largely because of the pending sanctions.

@Texas-Hawk-10

To be honest... I'm glad.

I'd like someone to study our past 10 years and from all the various situations we've been in... how much of the trouble came from 5-star recruits, versus the rest of the pack?

Do you know?

I'm pretty sure this info right here will change some minds about landing top tier.

Party poppers and streamers! 💥 Time for the media darling and god to go the fuck away.... And stay there.

@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@Texas-Hawk-10

To be honest... I'm glad.

I'd like someone to study our past 10 years and from all the various situations we've been in... how much of the trouble came from 5-star recruits, versus the rest of the pack?

Do you know?

I'm pretty sure this info right here will change some minds about landing top tier.

The biggest issues have come from two players, Cheick Diallo and Silvio DeSousa. Both are international players from relatively poor countries that immigrated to the U.S. and lived with guardians or essentially a foster family from their same nation.

The Billy Preston and Josh Selby situations are so common that I'm not really worried about KU going after those kids. Kids in a similar situation to Diallo and DeSousa are who I would steer clear from in recruiting.

@Texas-Hawk-10

Yep... and now I forgot the other guy's name... big man from Chicago. He zero'd out for us, too.

@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@Texas-Hawk-10

Yep... and now I forgot the other guy's name... big man from Chicago. He zero'd out for us, too.

Cliff Alexander and he didn't zero out for KU. He was coming on really strong at the end of his freshman season and seemed pretty intent on coming back at the time for a second season.

His situation is also why I'm not overly concerned about KU recruiting American kids who are being guided by agents and parents. We all know that his mom took money, but because she was advised on how to do so, the NCAA couldn't prove anything because of how restricted they are when it comes to accessing financial information.

The movie Blue Chips is pretty good at showing how that process works except instead of coaches and boosters cutting deals like it was back then, it's the runners for the apparel companies doing it now.

@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@Texas-Hawk-10

Yep... and now I forgot the other guy's name... big man from Chicago. He zero'd out for us, too.

With NIL the Cliff situation would’ve been above board most likely, unless they do some weird restriction to only group licensing. And I’ll be honest that whole cycle was unbelievably dirty at the top holy crap. The Jones/Okafor/Cliff love triangle was WILD.

@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

The NCAA investigation is what’s impacting KU more than anything else right now will continue to until a verdict is handed down.

Is that because top shelf talent is shying away from Kansas or is it because Self and crew finally realize it just isn't worth it recruiting most of those "basket cases?"

Looking at the visit schedule this month. They are getting VERY aggressive with top talent now. KU always has great visits so given that nobody has been able to do them in 15 months, strike fast and hard.

All of these are interesting stories. What I care about is how much did they produce for us on the court? Especially versus what they cost us in drama... taking attention away from the game itself. At least we got a return out of Jackson and Wiggins. And once they start becoming valuable to us they are gone and we start from scratch. I agree with the case that perhaps having one of these guys fill in a role we won't have otherwise could potentially put us over the top for a NC. At least that is an argument that can be made with some clear path.

How much time is our coaching staff wasting away recruiting top tier? And when we don't score one or two? Time might have been better spent digging deeper in the pool for a rough cut diamond with more potential and will be around longer. Or how about a 3 or 4-star guy who fits nicely and will be around longer? This is one of the classic discussions held in here and as time goes by I tend to think the recruiting of top tier talent is a bad decision.

@FarmerJayhawk said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@Texas-Hawk-10

Yep... and now I forgot the other guy's name... big man from Chicago. He zero'd out for us, too.

With NIL the Cliff situation would’ve been above board most likely, unless they do some weird restriction to only group licensing. And I’ll be honest that whole cycle was unbelievably dirty at the top holy crap. The Jones/Okafor/Cliff love triangle was WILD.

You know, honest question here. I really thought that Alexander was going to be a star, and so did everyone else. And it's not like be played against non-competition in Chicago. What, just a bad dude or what? And what happened to him?

@Marco said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@FarmerJayhawk said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@Texas-Hawk-10

Yep... and now I forgot the other guy's name... big man from Chicago. He zero'd out for us, too.

With NIL the Cliff situation would’ve been above board most likely, unless they do some weird restriction to only group licensing. And I’ll be honest that whole cycle was unbelievably dirty at the top holy crap. The Jones/Okafor/Cliff love triangle was WILD.

You know, honest question here. I really thought that Alexander was going to be a star, and so did everyone else. And it's not like be played against non-competition in Chicago. What, just a bad dude or what? And what happened to him?

Cliff came to KU as a presumed OAD player. He struggled early on, the light started to come on for him towards the end of the regular season, but his draft stock had dropped to the point where Cliff sounded like he was planning on coming back for a second season which he definitely needed. Then in late February, a newspaper reporter published a story about his mom taking a huge "loan" and KU held Cliff out at that point. The NCAA had a slam dunk case against KU, except they could never get the loan documents because of legal reasons and Cliff was basically forced to off to the pros a year before he was ready.

Had KU had Cliff for a second season, KU probably wins the title instead of Villanova because Cliff probably would've started at the 5 over Landed Lucas all year. It also would've meant KU never had to go through the Cheick Diallo drama because KU would've stopped recruiting Diallo had Cliff come back.

Cliff and Josh Selby are the two biggest what if's of Self's tenure as far as what could've been with teams the following season. With a second year Cliff, KU's likely starting line up in 2015-16 would've been Mason, Graham, Selden, Ellis, and Alexander with a bench of Svi, Greene, Traylor, Lucas, and Bragg.

If Josh Selby had returned for 2011-2012, KU might have had enough to beat Kentucky and wouldn't have had to take Naadir Tharpe. With a returning Selby, KU could've moved Tyshawn off the ball and either had Elijah Johnson or Travis Releford coming off the bench and had a second perimeter shooter because that team couldn't shoot for shit.

@Marco said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@FarmerJayhawk said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@Texas-Hawk-10

Yep... and now I forgot the other guy's name... big man from Chicago. He zero'd out for us, too.

With NIL the Cliff situation would’ve been above board most likely, unless they do some weird restriction to only group licensing. And I’ll be honest that whole cycle was unbelievably dirty at the top holy crap. The Jones/Okafor/Cliff love triangle was WILD.

You know, honest question here. I really thought that Alexander was going to be a star, and so did everyone else. And it's not like be played against non-competition in Chicago. What, just a bad dude or what? And what happened to him?

He played in kind of a whacky system in HS. I don't think they ever really played man defense. It was a strict 2-3 zone and he barely left the paint. It took him a loooong time to adapt to Big 12 competition and Self's system. Clearly the talent was there. He started the last 5 games he played. Advanced stats were good. I agree with Tex, he would've been very good the following year.

@FarmerJayhawk was at the rowdy game against osu! Fun times

@Crimsonorblue22 said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@FarmerJayhawk was at the rowdy game against osu! Fun times

Same! I was in the last year of my master's and about 4 rows behind the basket when Cliff got T'd up for the flex lol

@Texas-Hawk-10

I'm curious... what is your position on recruiting top tier guys? In your opinion, is it worth it?

What path do you think is best for Kansas.... Focus on top tier, revolving door, like a Duke/Kentucky? Focus on defense heavy teams, live UVA and one can argue Syracuse (recruiting for players fitting his zone)? Focus on offense... like a fast-pace Roy team? Focus on more well-rounded, like Nova?

How do you rate Self and the job he's done?

I appreciate your efforts in here and respect your opinion.

@drgnslayr Absolutely KU needs to keep going after top level talent regardless if it's a HS kid or transfer. The talent level last year was bad by KU standards and we saw what happened when KU went against good teams away from AFH last year and it wasn't pretty.

Seems pretty self-defeating to decide not to go for top tier if you have a chance. "Hey, everyone! We only deserve less!"

Did we have an All American on our last two teams that made the Final Four?

Thomas Robinson and Devonte Graham were first team All Americans.

Doke was a McD. I think he was the only left on either roster.

I think Dave was a McD as well.

@rockchalkwyo he was, but Dave wasn't on that 2017-2018 roster.

There's a YouTube Channel out there called Stunted Growth ↗. It's an interesting look back at some failed recruits and guys that were college stars that did not make the leap to the next level. Anyway, the channel has several videos on former KU players.

Julian Wright, Wayne Selden, Kansas City's Rush Brothers, Cliff Alexander, Josh Jackson, JR Giddens, Thomas Robinson, Sherron Collins, Billy Preston, Josh Selby, Xavier Henry, Malik Newman, Andrew Wiggins and Ben McLemore all have videos.

I find the videos interesting (the guy has tons of content on the page of lots of former hyped recruits and college stars) because the creator takes time to look at why a particular player did not succeed, be it injuries, coaching changes, off court issues, bad advice, choosing the wrong school or whatever.

It's also interesting because this guy actually played college ball and tells his own story of how he stunted his own growth with a lack of work ethic, coaching changes, transfers, etc. that ultimately short circuited his career. I don't always agree with him, but I enjoy the perspective.

I post it here because that list of KU top level recruits happens to reveal a very troubling pattern - it is very wing heavy. Of the 13 players I have listed there, only Robinson, Alexander, Preston, Collins and Selby were not projected as wing players at the NBA level.

So why can't KU develop wings?

It's not for a lack of talent. Besides the guys listed above, KU has had top 100 recruits Kelly Oubre, Svi, Elijah Johnson (although you could consider him a PG if you want), Quentin Grimes, LaGerald Vick, Andrew White III, and Brannen Greene all come to KU since Self arrived.

That's a lot of wing talent to have come through with only Wiggins becoming an established starter in the NBA, and only Oubre, McLemore, Svi and Jackson being regular rotation players.

Why doesn't KU (particularly under Self) develop wing talent more consistently? That's a question we have to answer, because top recruits are asking that same question.

@justanotherfan Grimes was a miss by the scouting industry. It was pretty clear from the jump he wasn't a top 10 player and needed a lot of time to develop. Vick and Greene both had more than their share of mental health issues at KU. I believe they both have diagnosed issues. Injuries were a factor with Elijah, and he didn't develop the skill to make up for it. White just wasn't a good enough athlete.

@justanotherfan said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

So why can't KU develop wings?

Why doesn't KU (particularly under Self) develop wing talent more consistently? That's a question we have to answer, because top recruits are asking that same question.

I pretty strongly disagree with this entire premise.

Also we keep landing guys. Gradey Dick will be here in 2022 to replace NBA draftee Ochai Agbaji.

@justanotherfan Bad take. Bill Self's top responsibility is win games for Kansas, not develop all star NBA players. 5 of the guys listed are still on NBA rosters.

Bill Self and his staff develop players to win games for Kansas, not NBA teams.

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@justanotherfan Bad take. Bill Self's top responsibility is win games for Kansas, not develop all star NBA players. 5 of the guys listed are still on NBA rosters.

Bill Self and his staff develop players to win games for Kansas, not NBA teams.

I agree and disagree with you on that, @Texas-Hawk-10. I absolutely agree that Coach Self is at KU to win games for KU, and will say that he has done a phenomenal job of accomplishing that.

But when you are talking about recruiting, as an individual player, those guys are looking for the best place to develop for them in the long term. And on that point, the returns are not as strong.

Think of it this way - if you were weighing two different collegiate academic programs, one of which had professors that were consistently published in their field and universally acclaimed as top academic minds, and the other that consistently placed its graduates in top paying jobs, as a student, which are you choosing? Chances are, the program that has a reputation for placing graduates in good jobs because, frankly, the scholarship of your professors won't pay your bills.

Bill Self is a great coach. But I'd argue that of that list I put up, only Vick, White, Johnson, Grimes and Greene should have legitimately missed in the NBA.

Wright was a top 10 recruit. So was Jackson. Same for Selby. And Henry. Oubre, Rush, Selden, Giddens, McLemore, and Newman were all top 25 recruits. Those are guys that should have NBA careers.

If I am advising a wing player and I see that list, I think twice about KU, not because Bill Self isn't a good coach (he absolutely is), but because something isn't clicking on wing development.

And here's the thing - we have seen that, at least while Manning was here, big man development was basically automatic. Arthur, Aldrich, Kaun, Darnell Jackson, Morris Twins, TRob - I could go on. All of those guys developed into the type of player you expected, maybe even exceeded those expectations (in the case of Aldrich, Kaun and certainly Darnell Jackson, I say exceeded for sure).

So I'm not saying Self doesn't develop guys.

We can go through PGs. RussRob, Frank Mason, Devontae, DDot, Tyshawn. Again, the list is darn good on that front.

So if bigs are developing like you would expect (maybe better), and PGs are developing like you would expect (maybe better), where's that same development on the wing? I'd argue KU has had more wing talent than either at the point or in the paint.

@justanotherfan said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@justanotherfan Bad take. Bill Self's top responsibility is win games for Kansas, not develop all star NBA players. 5 of the guys listed are still on NBA rosters.

Bill Self and his staff develop players to win games for Kansas, not NBA teams.

I agree and disagree with you on that, @Texas-Hawk-10. I absolutely agree that Coach Self is at KU to win games for KU, and will say that he has done a phenomenal job of accomplishing that.

But when you are talking about recruiting, as an individual player, those guys are looking for the best place to develop for them in the long term. And on that point, the returns are not as strong.

Think of it this way - if you were weighing two different collegiate academic programs, one of which had professors that were consistently published in their field and universally acclaimed as top academic minds, and the other that consistently placed its graduates in top paying jobs, as a student, which are you choosing? Chances are, the program that has a reputation for placing graduates in good jobs because, frankly, the scholarship of your professors won't pay your bills.

Bill Self is a great coach. But I'd argue that of that list I put up, only Vick, White, Johnson, Grimes and Greene should have legitimately missed in the NBA.

Wright was a top 10 recruit. So was Jackson. Same for Selby. And Henry. Oubre, Rush, Selden, Giddens, McLemore, and Newman were all top 25 recruits. Those are guys that should have NBA careers.

If I am advising a wing player and I see that list, I think twice about KU, not because Bill Self isn't a good coach (he absolutely is), but because something isn't clicking on wing development.

And here's the thing - we have seen that, at least while Manning was here, big man development was basically automatic. Arthur, Aldrich, Kaun, Darnell Jackson, Morris Twins, TRob - I could go on. All of those guys developed into the type of player you expected, maybe even exceeded those expectations (in the case of Aldrich, Kaun and certainly Darnell Jackson, I say exceeded for sure).

So I'm not saying Self doesn't develop guys.

We can go through PGs. RussRob, Frank Mason, Devontae, DDot, Tyshawn. Again, the list is darn good on that front.

So if bigs are developing like you would expect (maybe better), and PGs are developing like you would expect (maybe better), where's that same development on the wing? I'd argue KU has had more wing talent than either at the point or in the paint.

Here's where I have an issue with your analysis about the development of wings. Comparing what Danny Manning did to what the wings at KU did/have done at the NBA level because only 3 of the bigs Danny worked with stuck long term in the NBA. KU has had more success getting wings to the NBA and sticking long term than Danny had with post players. There's also not a lot of consistency in a specific program developing NBA wings that stick long term. KU was also tied for the 4th most active players in the NBA when the season tipped off so KU isn't exactly hurting in that department.

Are we comparing ourselves to other schools? I mean what is the criteria for saying Bill Self doesn't develop wings?

I want to see Self put more PGs and Cs in the league. Least worried about wings.

@approxinfinity Self's preferred style of PG doesn't really fit NBA molds and basically nobody is putting C's into the NBA anymore as only 8 have been drafted in the 1st round of the past three drafts.

@approxinfinity said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

I want to see Self put more PGs and Cs in the league. Least worried about wings.

Withey, Embiid, Doke? I think Landen is the only starting true center of the Self era that didn’t at least get a cup of coffee in the NBA.

@Texas-Hawk-10 @FarmerJayhawk yeah that's fair.

And Markieff.

I think all of the notoriety we've had regarding our underachieving bigs has clouded my perception. De Sousa, Cliff, Diallo, BP, Bragg, Giles off court issues, Landen and Moody as starters, Dokes FT form and injuries, Dedrics lack of athleticism, Darrells green room issue, whiffing on big targets that seemed locks like Hurt, Tarzewski, others.

Feels like year-in, year-out our question marks are always what we will get from our PG and our bigs. Not our wings.

I reslly don't think Collins (couldn't control his weight, blew off a tryout; who does that?) or Selby (9 game suspension by NCAA, late injury) whiffing can be attributed to KU.

As to wings, KU's alums trying to go pro are also competing not only with college players but with the huge numbers of foreign players. With only 2 rounds in the draft and huge contracts limiting free agent undrafted opportunities, there aren't a lot of chances for the merely really good to break through.

Seems like everyone between 6'3" and 6'9" wants to play wing anyway, all of them seeing themselves as 3-pt assassins and swoopers to the rim. Few players at 6'8" will bulk up anymore to play like Kurt Rambis did--they stay lean like Svi and sport nice stats. But wouldn't it have been nice to see more of these guys really crash the boards to seize rebounds rather than just being opportunistic? My pet peeve: even in the NBA, the wings stay outside to admire their shots.

Just a random bitching session...carry on!

I don't think KU does an adequate job developing any players. Part of that is just the way it goes in college because they can only coach them so much. So the focus is on team ball.

The hi/lo is not an offense built for wings. Period. And as Self begins his coaching journey away from hi/lo ball when he embraces 4 guard offenses more, it opens up more opportunities for wings. A motion offense is a better structure to build wing development.

I watched Baylor win a title this year over an extremely well-coached team that probably brought the best coached team ball every to perform at the college level. They beat them one-on-one and then also had their own decent team ball play. But the Baylor guards did it on their own. They knew how to use the crossover... they knew how to create scoring space.... they had a wide open shot whenever they wanted. We've never had guards/wings that could do that with the ease they performed at. Heck... we've rarely had perimeter play where guys even knew how to use a shot fake. Friggin' u nreal.

I don't think we are known as a development school. We are known as a school where you go to challenge for a NC. @Texas-Hawk-10 said it right when he said Self's job is to win games, not develop players. And that does put us in a position where we have to go for the top tier recruits because he needs to coach players who come in with a high level of play already. I'm not trying to diss Self. There are limits in what they can do with players in D1. I still think we could be based on development and then only recruit players who really want to spend their 4 years working their butts off in school and gym... all their extra moments spent there so coaches mostly direct them on their own developmental path.

I'm not saying players don't improve while they are here. They do. Just not, for the most part, anywhere near my expectations. The basics of the game are mostly lost. I rarely see a player who knows how to seal the boards, hedge properly on-ball defense, know how to give the right weakside defensive help.... and then there is offense!

Back to wings... I think BRush is the last wing player I recall here that showed real wing developed skills while at KU. He knew how to pull up on his shot and he knew at least a little bit about scoring space. I'm embarrassed by most of our players (for them) and how little they are developed on a personal level. Their focus here is spreading the floor and whipping passes between seams trying to get a shot off. That's not personal development.

@drgnslayr That's not really the context of what I said. My comment about player development was in regards to it not being Self's job to develop NBA skills in players.

I'm also going to disagree with you about Self's ability to develop players even recently. Just because Self and staff are not training players to use the specific skills you want to see does not mean they are not developing skill sets that work for KU.

A big part of Baylor and Gonzaga's success last season was experience. The core of those teams had played together for 2-3 seasons. KU didn't have that last year as KU was a relatively inexperienced team last season. That's not going to be an issue this season and why KU is on the short list of title contenders assuming Remy Martin shows up. It's very possible the rotation next season sees at least 5 seniors/4th year players and everyone in at least their 3rd season of college basketball.

KU having the 4th most active NBA players should be a testament to KU's player development, especially when less than half of those players were OAD.

@Texas-Hawk-10

I'm probably not fair with KU. My expectations get the best of me. I don't see the game without crimson/blue glasses. I focus on our guys mistakes more than what other teams do.

@drgnslayr The hazards of being a fan!

It also explains how every single school has a fanbase convinced all the calls go their opponents' way.

@mayjay said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

It also explains how every single school has a fanbase convinced all the calls go their opponents’ way.

It's because they do!

@tis4tim Reminds me of a Psychology Today article about a survey of people exiting a casino. 80% said they won or broke even, most of whom claimed to win. Which would have put the casino out of business, of course.

@mayjay said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

Reminds me of a Psychology Today article about a survey of people exiting a casino. 80% said they won or broke even, most of whom claimed to win. Which would have put the casino out of business, of course.

Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing.

@drgnslayr too bad Jerome Tang isn't on our staff.

Thanks people! So I'm trying to lighten up and see the positive. Here is a guy who isn't the same player he was when he got here. Love his attitude... always wanting to be better and do for the team, even if he is hampered with a recovering wheel -

@approxinfinity

"As an original member of Scott Drew’s Baylor staff, Tang has helped put together eight consensus top-25 recruiting classes, including 2010 (Jones III), 2011 (Miller and Deuce Bello), 2012 (Isaiah Austin, Prince and Rico Gathers), 2013 (Ishmail Wainright, Al Freeman and Motley) and the highest-ranked class in program history at No. 4 in 2021 (Kendall Brown, Langston Love and Jeremy Sochan)."

Anyone think Baylor is going away?

@mayjay said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

I reslly don't think Collins (couldn't control his weight, blew off a tryout; who does that?) or Selby (9 game suspension by NCAA, late injury) whiffing can be attributed to KU.

As to wings, KU's alums trying to go pro are also competing not only with college players but with the huge numbers of foreign players. With only 2 rounds in the draft and huge contracts limiting free agent undrafted opportunities, there aren't a lot of chances for the merely really good to break through.

Seems like everyone between 6'3" and 6'9" wants to play wing anyway, all of them seeing themselves as 3-pt assassins and swoopers to the rim. Few players at 6'8" will bulk up anymore to play like Kurt Rambis did--they stay lean like Svi and sport nice stats. But wouldn't it have been nice to see more of these guys really crash the boards to seize rebounds rather than just being opportunistic? My pet peeve: even in the NBA, the wings stay outside to admire their shots.

Just a random bitching session...carry on!

I thought Collins could make it in the NBA. He would often get lost, driving inside with nowhere to go with the ball, but I thought that - despite his size - he'd have a spot somewhere. Regardless, that guy is one of my all-time favorite Jayhawks.

@Marco said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

that guy is one of my all-time favorite Jayhawks

Almost everyone remembers Mario's shot, but true fans appreciate Sherron as having made it possible with magic ball-handling (avoiding being fouled) and that beautiful pass while falling down. But his corner falling-out-of-bounds pass leading to his 3 ptr a couple seconds later was crucial to the comeback, too!

Geez, this never gets old:

@mayjay no, it really doesn't. Damn. It's hard to imagine feeling about a team like I felt about that one again. Certainty that we were the best team in the country. Confidence that our talent and experience could carry us. Trust that our second unit was good enough to play with anyone.

.

@mayjay said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@Marco said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

that guy is one of my all-time favorite Jayhawks

Almost everyone remembers Mario's shot, but true fans appreciate Sherron as having made it possible with magic ball-handling (avoiding being fouled) and that beautiful pass while falling down. But his corner falling-out-of-bounds pass leading to his 3 ptr a couple seconds later was crucial to the comeback, too!

Geez, this never gets old:

NEVERF , NEVER GETS OLD - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@approxinfinity the depth on that team, no doubt!

@mayjay said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

Almost everyone remembers Mario’s shot, but true fans appreciate Sherron as having made it possible with magic ball-handling (avoiding being fouled) and that beautiful pass while falling down. But his corner falling-out-of-bounds pass leading to his 3 ptr a couple seconds later was crucial to the comeback, too!

I thought it then and after watching the video this morning after many years my opinion hasn't changed: when that 3-pointer from Sherron left his hand I will swear to my dying day that the shot was off. It looked like it was destined to carom off the heel for a long rebound.

It could be a trick of the light or the camera angle, but I believe someone or something steered that ball into the hoop.

@tis4tim said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@mayjay said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

Almost everyone remembers Mario’s shot, but true fans appreciate Sherron as having made it possible with magic ball-handling (avoiding being fouled) and that beautiful pass while falling down. But his corner falling-out-of-bounds pass leading to his 3 ptr a couple seconds later was crucial to the comeback, too!

I thought it then and after watching the video this morning after many years my opinion hasn't changed: when that 3-pointer from Sherron left his hand I will swear to my dying day that the shot was off. It looked like it was destined to carom off the heel for a long rebound.

It could be a trick of the light or the camera angle, but I believe someone or something steered that ball into the hoop.

I think it's the way the lighting is in the dome coming off the backboard that makes the shot look off. I never really thought about it, but I just watched it a bunch of times and it does look like its heading off before seeming to veer in.

@tis4tim Thx for making me watch it several more times. I forgot the play actually started with an SC steal.

I think he should have gotten MOP.

@mayjay he did some bonehead things earlier in the game that had me pulling my hair out. I undervalued him when he was at KU because of the drives to nowhere / hero ball moments. That steal was incredible.

@mayjay Chalmers made "the shot" but Collins won the game... Once it went to O.T. you could tell by the Memphis faces, they didn't went any.

It was fun rewatching that clip.

It doesn't even seem to have happened when you talk with sports media. It is a game totally underappreciated by everyone but Kansas fans. That was one helluva game and the comeback was monumental... even though forgotten and swept under the rug of everyone NOT Kansas. Pity the poor fools. We all just love good ball, including games not including Kansas.

@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

It was fun rewatching that clip.

It doesn't even seem to have happened when you talk with sports media. It is a game totally underappreciated by everyone but Kansas fans. That was one helluva game and the comeback was monumental... even though forgotten and swept under the rug of everyone NOT Kansas. Pity the poor fools. We all just love good ball, including games not including Kansas.

true , almost like in 88 with Danny and the Miracles. Who ever thought KU had a chance to beat Oklahoma in that game? That was even including some KU fans , All I remember alot of was how Billy Packer kept saying how it was a big mistake for KU to try and run with Oklahoma in the 1st half and the half ended at 50-50 I know this might sound crazy , but I almost believe we had that Championship at the half. Why is that ? - -Because I think we had got into Oklahoma's heads , thinking these guys think they can run with us, this is OUR game. Then when we matched them point for point and even at the half playing their style , got them to thinking what it took to run us out.

I think that was another game where ho one really appreciated how well we played that game other then KU fans and so many players coming up clutch. Of course Danny was Danny. but so many other role players came up big. The one I remember most was Clint Normore - -A FOOTBALL PLAYER hitting a huge shot from the top of the key latet, just love that game. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer67

Bingo! We totally got into OUs heads at halftime. They were over-inflated from Tubbs and his jackass ego.

@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@jayballer67

Bingo! We totally got into OUs heads at halftime. They were over-inflated from Tubbs and his jackass ego.

What a game, one of the all-time greats. I think that people do give the game its historical respect and context though. I still have the SI issue bubble wrapped, the caption reading, Oh, Danny Boy!

@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@jayballer67

Bingo! We totally got into OUs heads at halftime. They were over-inflated from Tubbs and his jackass ego.

Tubbs ego riding right along wit Daryl Chew Kennedy the was a cocky shit - -now can't remember for sure if Chew was playing in that game - might of been a little before him but he was another complete Oklahoma Ass

@jayballer67

Tubbs made everyone hate OU... It wasn't fair to his players, then he would turn around and blame his players for pulling the stunts. He was a first-class douchebag. You won't hear me say that about many coaches.

https://www.oklahoman.com/article/2058917/things-get-out-of-hand-in-ous-triumph-at-ku ↗

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2009/may/16/tisdale-hand-net-cutting/ ↗

@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

@jayballer67

Tubbs made everyone hate OU... It wasn't fair to his players, then he would turn around and blame his players for pulling the stunts. He was a first-class douchebag. You won't hear me say that about many coaches.

https://www.oklahoman.com/article/2058917/things-get-out-of-hand-in-ous-triumph-at-ku ↗

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2009/may/16/tisdale-hand-net-cutting/ ↗

Agree but Chew Kennedy was an exception. - Do you remember this aggorant F - - - ?

@drgnslayr said in Coach K to retire after 21-22 season:

Bingo! We totally got into OUs heads at halftime. They were over-inflated from Tubbs and his jackass ego.

Didn’t hurt that we made everything from the field in the first half. It has been a looong time since I watched that game but I don’t think we missed a shot in the first half until late and ended up at something like 83% from the field at the break.

Also remember Milt Newton’s sweet reverse layup and slapping his hand at the championship parade. One of the only times I skipped school to speed to Mass Ave. to take part. Would never be able to get that close to the players during today’s celebrations. Fun times.

@tis4tim Very cool story. I was able to watch the game with my family, then two days later had to go overseas. I was really proud once there to be able to when warranted say Rock Chalk Jayhawk!

@tis4tim 💥 wow! 🖐🏼