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Here's my stab at the perfect recruiting class -- staying far away from any hint of OAD stench. No Stone, no Newman, not even Zimmerman (who is on the OAD fringe):

The perfect three man recruiting class:

1. Tyler Davis, C.
2. Carlton Bragg, PF
3. Tyler Dorsey, SG

If I could draw it up, and by a flick of @jaybate-1.0's magic wand, create a three man recruiting class for 2015, this would be it.

Something that is still obvious in the 2015 class, and that is the lack of PF prospects. I had mentioned this back last fall. It is why I felt that we should target folks that weren't OADs over a guy like Alexander. It creates a reasonable possibility that our top three post players are Lucas, Traylor, and Mickelson next season, if Ellis and Alexander bolt, and we miss on top guys. Snagging at least one post player is an absolute must. And the playing time opportunities appear to be enticing, even for two top guys.

In Davis and Bragg, we would have two post players that would be nearly certain three year guys. Both guys that need some development. Both guys that can play in the NBA, but need KU to get there. This would not be a pit stop. It would be a destination. This package secures our post future for the near future. High talent, size, tenacity, and motivation.

Tyler Dorsey provides a perfect combo guard choice. Again, the type of player that has NBA talent, but not a "for sure" NBAer.

All three visit October 10 for late night. If we are drawing things up on a chalk board, this is the best result we could hope for.

Here's their ESPN summaries:

Tyler Davis

Strengths:

Davis is a wide body post player who has made great strides in a short period of time. He has lost over 35 pounds and plans to continue to drop weight. Davis has excellent hands, touch, feel and patience with his post moves, mostly scoring over his left shoulder with a hook or powerful drop step through contact. Davis is a good area rebounder and can block shots mostly on the ball. Davis does a good job of holding his ground on defense and playing vertical with his hands up, making the defense shoot over him. Davis handles the ball pretty well for his size and can knock down the open high post jumper with needed time and space. He is tough and competes on both ends. Davis is also a standout offensive lineman.

Weaknesses:

Davis doesn't have much left yet but getting around him to deny the ball will make you wish he was more explosive. He must continue to work to improve his conditioning in order to play for longer periods of time which will lead to being more productive.

Bottom Line:

Davis is a true center with off the charts upside. He can score inside and out to about 15 feet comfortably. He rebounds in his area and has decent skills for his size. Controlling his weight and improving his conditioning is key for high level long term success.

Carlton Bragg

Strengths:

Bragg is an ultra-athletic specimen who can impact the game in a variety of ways. He attacks the offensive glass, finishes in transition, and is an explosive around the rim. He has a lengthy frame with long arms and he has great feet. He plays with tenacity at both ends and his hands are terrific. Bragg has extended his range out to the arc. He runs the floor on the break where he spots up waiting for the advance or kick out pass.

Weaknesses:

Bragg is coming on strong and has improved from a season ago, but his skill set is still a bit raw. He needs to improve his ability to score with his left hand and continue to add to his face-up game. Utilizing the triple threat game (jab step, up fake, etc.) while facing up his defender will enhance his overall game. Bragg will need to play with more energy and urgency and compete throughout the game which will lead to increased production.

Bottom Line:

Once his offensive game matures, he has all the physical intangibles to be an elite high-major and has the potential to play after college. Bragg has to improve his motor but all all the other tools to be a special player with continued skill develop. He has the motor, bounce, and length to be a McDonald's All-American-he's that talented.

Tyler Dorsey

Strengths:

Dorsey has a lethal combination of his size and skill is a sight to see and his athleticism is impressive. He explodes in the open court (reminiscent of John Wall while in high school) and he can cover a lot of ground in a hurry. Although he is most noted for his scoring prowess (pull-ups and slashing drives), his passing ability is what sets him apart from most of his peers.

Weaknesses:

Dorsey is a mature prospect (old for his grade), thus it will be interesting to see how much more he physically develops. Dorsey needs to slow down some in the half court set and play on balance (leaves his feet while passing) which leads to charges and turnovers. Like most players he has a tendency to pound the ball too much, which leads to some turnovers and forced shots. By continuing to develop a triple threat game (squaring up, quick 1st step, jab step, pump fake, etc.) instead of over-handling it, the game should slow down for him.

Bottom Line:

Dorsey continues to prove why he should be mentioned amongst the nation%u2019s elite for his class. Due to his scoring prowess and approach to the game (plays hard), he has a chance to be an elite shooting guard with continued savvy and skill development.

@HighEliteMajor

First... here is footage on all these guys:

[Tyler Davis](

[Carlton Bragg](

[Tyler Dorsey](

I like all these recruits and none appear to be OADs. But they have a senior year to play and grow, so who knows.

I think if we lose Perry, Cliff and Kelly next year that will be a big hole to fill. I put the B12 Championships streak down as being paramount. It is the ride that just keeps on giving. I think I would feel better if we recruited 2 of 3 from this fine bunch and then added one recruit that will likely be an OAD who could contribute more in that first year.

All of this is recruiting choreography. If we nail Zimmerman and he goes after a year, we'll have a nice spot for a player like Thon Maker. It is still early, but this guy is making more noise than even Wiggins did when he was a couple years out from college.

So maybe we miss on either Davis or Bragg.... Bragg looks more college ready, but who is to say that he wouldn't split after a year.

It is hard to look at tape and rankings to determine which kids go OAD. Kentucky got back most of their team from a year ago and several of those guys were projected OAD (most notably, the twins).

If you listen carefully you will hear that many of the elite recruits today put a message out that they want to stay more than one year in college. I'm guessing that is mostly playing poker on a bluff. However, surely some of them mean it. And it is possible to lose players that really have no business going pro early. We've had some of those to know.

It seems we need to recruit at least one elite recruit post player just about every year if we want to keep the reputation "Big Man U" while helping several who aren't right at the top perform well enough to be a high draft pick.

Count me down as 2/3s on board!

I am firmly in the camp that Ellis will not jump to the NBA because he isn't strong enough to play PF in the NBA and isn't athletic enough to play SF. With no position, I can't see him being a lottery pick, so there's no reason for him to jump. So I believe he will be back as a four year player.

As for the group you point to here, if Davis does the things that ESPN mentions (specifically improving his conditioning and losing a bit more weight, which will likely make him more explosive) then he likely is an OAD player. He's ranked 21 right now by ESPN, 35 by Rivals. Improved explosiveness and conditioning from a guy that size means he likely won't be in college more than a year. If he doesn't improve those things, or struggles with his weight, he likely won't be an effective D1 player. So the sword cuts both ways. If he does the things that will make him effective, he's probably an OAD. If he doesn't, we probably can't get more than 15 mpg out of him because of his weight and conditioning.

Carlton Bragg is an OAD. He's too athletic to not be an OAD if he plays well. As the scouting report states, he's a McD's AA from an athleticism standpoint. On top of that his jumpshot mechanics are sound, so he can probably become a legitimate perimeter shooter. He's ranked 14 right now by ESPN. Rivals has him at 9. That's OAD territory all the way. The only way he misses on that is if he just outright doesn't play well, which doesn't help KU.

Dorsey is the only one that I believe isn't a potential OAD, mostly because of his size. Since he's only 6-4 and isn't a true PG, I can't see him jumping right to the NBA, particularly since he isn't an elite athlete for a SG to make up for the lack of size (think Dwyane Wade). The downside for non-elite athletes on the perimeter is that they may not pan out when faced with bigger or stronger players. Remember Royce Woolridge? He wasn't ranked this high, but similar build and athletic profile. He once dropped 50 in a high school game. He was a non factor at KU. On the other end of the spectrum you have a guy like Tyler Ennis. He wasn't expected to be an OAD, primarily because he wasn't an elite athlete, but he settled in at the point and next thing you know, Adam Silver is calling his name.

I think Dorsey is really the only guy out of these three that could both play well and return to Lawrence for a second season. Bragg is almost a sure fire OAD and if Davis does his work, he will be as well.

To get to the non OAD players, you really have to look outside the top 30, but KU isn't really in on most of those guys right now.

@justanotherfan I agree with you about Bragg, but not Davis. The thing that drives the OAD bus is "potential", and that's something that Bragg has in spades, but Davis... not nearly as much as the ESPN blurb suggests. Even if Davis gets down to say, 250-260ish and can play 30 minutes a game, he's still not an elite level athlete by NBA standards, and that means he's going to have to show a lot of polish and consistency before the league will take him on. Polish and consistency are words I hear associated with upperclassmen way more often than freshmen. Davis is a bare minimum two-year player and more likely a three-year guy. Bragg is a borderline two-year guy, but an OAD lean.

Also, your comment about looking outside the top 30 doesn't ring true to me. Yeah, guys outside the top 30 are all but guaranteed to not OAD, but most of the guys in the top 30 won't either. In fact, out of the top 10, the guys most likely to OAD, only about 65% of those guys have ended up doing it since the rule started in 2006, and once you get outside the top 10, that number drops precipitously.

HCBS could be his own worst enemy because he is also recruiting 8 other bigs with a higher ceiling and ranking. I think out of the 3 that you have listed HCBS would tell them that they have to wait because he wants the higher ranked guys. This is why there is a domino effect once top recruits start signing. Not to mention other coaches will remind them about Andrew White and how Bill Self will recruit over them. I think we have to get the best available option to fill in for our departures or we will continue to lose top 50 talent when they have to sit behind a Wiggins or Embiid. HCBS either needs to stick to developing talent or catering to OAD's. I don't think there is a middle ground on this?

@HighEliteMajor

Your approach makes sense, but...

If the game continues to be called as it was last season, rim protection, which has always been a decisive weapon on the defensive end, becomes the ONLY failsafe weapon on defense.

Withey carried us two seasons, when a lot of contact was being allowed. During the high contact era, a big skinny like Withey and a brawny type like TRob were a very good match.

But last season, when driver's were given the edge, KU could control inside shooting percentages with Embiid healthy, even with Mr. Anti-contact, Perry Ellis, at PF, and Wisconsin was able to do the exact same thing with their big skinny, and a non-dom power forward also.

As a result, any rim protector that comes along probably has to be signed for his immediate value, even though his NBA jump may create a quick hole to fill.

The logic, if a bit reductive, be this: one year of rim protection is better than a year of none, even with the hole it may create the year after.

Why?

The hole this approach creates is actually the absence of a rim protector big, not the absence of a non rim protector big.

If you fail to recruit another rim protector big (i.e., to replace the departing OAD rim protector big), the worst case scenario is you default to the players of the type you are proposing to recruit that have presumably been on your bench getting seasoned filling in for the soon to depart rim protector big.

Wow, that sounds convoluted. :-)

How about this way? Recruit exactly the way you propose, but anytime a rim protector will sign, then sign him and move those guys you have recruited into 10-20 minute back ups for a season, since they will be sticking around for 3-4 regardless.

In the age of refs favoring the driver, the only unfair advantage on defense becomes the capacity to block and alter without fouling; that is the realm of the rim protector; that is what KU needs to keep attracting in the recruiting game.

Big Man U may have to be altered to Rim Protector U for the sake of clarity of marketing and recruiting signals.

@justanotherfan

"The thing that drives the OAD bus is potential..."

I agree that potential drives the bus, but potential needs to be disaggregated into at least two variables--potential variables (PVs)--to be usefully understood.

PV1: Performance ceiling, i.e., how much MUA could result at an NBA position, if an OAD were to raise his game to the ceiling his abilities suggest feasible,

PV2: Marketing ceiling, i.e., how much increase in franchise value would result if the OAD were to reach his performance ceiling.

Andrew Wiggins had the highest PV1 since Lebron.

Andrew Wiggins, because of adidas apparent deep commitment to his promotion, in part because of his handsomeness, and in significant part, because Andrew is not only marketable through the conventional bandwidth of NBA superstar endorsers (i.e., the North American market with some spillover effect abroad), but also has unprecedented marketability throughout targeted global markets, like the British Commonwealth of Nations, that a Petro-ShoeCo, like adidas, was well positioned in the target market to leverage, had perhaps the highest PV2 ever (so far).

In comparison, Embiid offered similar PV1, probably even more, but his PV2 was more complicated and risky (Cameroon is a former French colony and so not a strong marketing tie to any foreign market segment as ripe for exploitation as the British Common Wealth of Nations, and Cameroon made Embiid a much less well branded endorser in North America--the bread and butter NBA endorsement market), plus Embiid got injured.

You have to think of these guys in marketing envelope terms, not just performance envelope terms. Performance envelope will increasingly simply be ante to the game as the global market becomes increasingly rationalized over time. The big increment of value to Petro-ShoeCos, to franchises, and to the players themselves, will lie in how much strategic marketing advantage they create; i.e., how much can they EXPAND demand over already marketed to segments.

Thus, when one talks about the potential of guys like Oubre, or Alexander, or Bragg, at the NBA level, for draft purposes, they really have modest PV1 and almost no PV2. If Oubre, Alexander, or Bragg reach their ceilings in the NBA, they might possibly have a few all pro seasons, but will probably never dominate in the NBA the way Wiggins and Embiid most certainly would were they to reach their respective PV1s. And again, none of them are ever going to have the combined domestic and foreign appeal needed to create a super high PV2 in the global Petro-ShoeCo age. And it is the synergy between global Petro-ShoeCo endorsement power and franchise promotion of such a player that can now drive franchise value to levels beyond what largely domestic based superstars have been able to do in the past.

I am always leery of players that have to lose that much weight to be competitive. So many players with huge potential have come and gone through the college ranks and the majority just could not maintain the lower weight and the struggle ends ups affecting the team. I would prefer a player with similar potential that needs to gain over one that needs to lose weight any day.

@JayHawkFanToo

"I am always leery of players that have to lose that much weight to be competitive."

I agree with that sentiment as well, especially for a big man. Overweight big men struggle with conditioning and injuries, which could easily limit the ceiling of a player. Davis worries me for that reason. First, he may not be able to lose the weight and keep it off, or will struggle with his weight throughout the season, meaning that he will also struggle with his energy level and strength. Second, the extra work he has to do to lose/maintain the weight could result in injury.

I have known a few players that had to lose 20+ pounds when they went to college and of those guys, only one did not struggle significantly with maintaining his weight. The rest struggled either with losing the weight to begin with, or with the after effects like sluggishness, lack of strength, etc. Remember, you're asking him to drop maybe another 15 or 20 pounds and still bang on the block. There's no guarantee that losing the weight won't wear him down and decrease his effectiveness for a period of time, meaning you may not get much from him in year one.

But let's look at the injury risk as well. A guy that has to lose weight is likely doing extra work on the side to do so. Extra cardio and weight training is the probable formula. Well, that could mean that he's doing those things when he is tired, especially because he's also having his eating habits monitored. If he is not careful, that could lead to injury from sloppy training. I have confidence in Hudy and Co. that they will monitor these things, but that also is on the player to make sure every rep is done properly, which is something that doesn't always happen when a guy is tired.

@JayHawkFanToo

"I am always leery of players that have to lose that much weight to be competitive."

I am, too. I'd rather the guy just try to build strength and be dominant with size and strength. It is a risk when athletes drop much weight that it doesn't always translate into explosiveness. Every athlete has their own unique DNA, so basic principles of physics can't be prescribed as treatment.

If most of these guys just build the right kind of strength, based on maximizing their quick-twitch potential, they will become very quick, especially for their size. To be the fastest guy at your big size will buy you a ticket into the league (within reason).

This idea that athletes change their physical aspects to a huge degree to be something they aren't will usually backfire. Build on what they already are...

We experienced this in a major way with Withey. He did it the right way. He built on to what he was, instead of going over the top into what he wasn't. He just wasn't going to become a much heavier version post player. But he did put on several pounds of muscle which helped him play the game he already knew how to play, but with added athleticism.

Very few fans realize just how hard Withey worked to become a stronger player. He is definitely one of Hudy's prized examples of success.

@drgnslayr .@justanotherfan

I agree. It is a lot easier to work with players that need to gain weight because you can always develop muscle mass and make him a better athlete. The opposite, players that need to lose some or a lot of weight, always end up in the wrong end of the scale. Look at our own Sherron Collins, for all the work he did to lose and maintain the lower weight, he was constantly fighting an uphill battle, and not even the prospect of an NBA career could get him to lose and keep the lower weight; a 30-40 pound lighter Sherron could be balling in the NBA now.

I'd rather get 3 TRobs!

I like the idea of Dorsey, Bragg, and Davis. Good thought put into choosing those 3.

The espn profile on Davis isn't up to date. The kid has gotten into much better shape and was dominant over the weekend in the tourney Zimmerman was named MVP before getting an injury. His ceiling is as high as other high ranked C's and will just need the right program to bring that out (KU).

I'm willing to raise you sort of a different set of 3 in my opinion.
Jaylen Brown'
Cheick Diallo
Carlton Bragg

I think Brown is as close to a 1 and done as it gets. Reminds me a lot of incoming Arizona freshman Stanley Johnson. Powerful combo guard who can defend multipe positions and is super athletic. Sounds like he would fit with Bill Self just fine.

Diallo is sort of like Embiid, raw in area's but a tremendous talent that just needs the right coaching before going to the league. Great shot-blocker, great motor, would be the ideal rim protector and upside talent Self could make into a lottery pick.

Bragg reminds me so much of Darrell Arthur, and from a potential/already polished player he would be ideal for early playing time.

Am I the only one that doesn't put much stock in videos of recruits playing against HS competition? They rarely reveal the quality of the competition, the skills of the coach trying to stop them, and even the skills of his own coach who may coach him to let him pad his stats. Is it some all star type game when defenses often rest? Sorry, I just have to trust the experts instead of these videos!

But I do like your thinking as always HEM, bring in some guys with some sticking power. Of course it's been discussed with some seriousness lately about changing the rules again and having these guys stick around a while longer in college and of course that changes the discussion too.

@wissoxfan83 HS videos I agree, but AAU videos are different. But either way you can still see what types of hands they have, foot movement and other mechanics.

@wissoxfan83

The key to watching the videos is to ignore the competition and look for specific skills. I look for athleticism, shooting mechanics, ball handling ability and the type of plays they try to make and can make.

For example, my hesitation with Tyler Dorsey comes not just from his size, but also from the fact that almost every jumpshot he takes is pretty closely challenged. He's a 2 guard, and in college he will have to deal with a 6-4 athlete every single night out. Can he still knock down those 20 footers with that type of defender on him? Also, the fact that he can't shake free of some of these guys is a concern as to whether he will be able to get his own shot at the D1 level. Is he quick enough and explosive enough to do that? The tape calls that into question. I like his ball handling and his shooting mechanics, but his athleticism gives me pause.

On the other hand I look at a guy like Carlton Bragg and you see a 6-9 guy with quickness, lots of explosive bounce, decent ball handling skills and good shooting mechanics. That means that he probably won't have any issues against bigger players because he's such a good athlete already. Look at him run the floor in the videos above - he runs the floor with the speed and agility of a guard. That's what makes me think he's an OAD.

When watching the shooting mechanics, I specifically focus on the release point. Is it high? Is it consistent? Is it fluid? That's what makes me love Kelly Oubre's shot. If guys have a lower release point, they will struggle as the competition improves (i.e. gets bigger and more athletic). Oubre's shot is high and smooth.

I want to see guys that can elevate and dunk in traffic, particularly for bigger players. That was always a concern for me with our own Perry Ellis. He didn't elevate in traffic and finish over guys at the high school level, which made me worry that he would struggle against bigger players in college. Guess what? When Perry Ellis faces guys bigger than him, he often struggles to finish around the rim. If you watch Bragg, you see the difference and realize that he probably will not have that same problem. If you can't elevate and finish over a 6-4 post player, you aren't going to be able to elevate and finish over a 6-9 guy.

I'm also very picky when watching guards to see the type of decisions they are making. Do they give the ball up on time on the break, or do they hold it too long. Those late decisions won't burn you in high school, but in college against better athletes and better overall players, it will haunt you to no end. Do they throw a bounce pass when they should? Do they seem to have command of the floor, or do they just make plays because they are bigger/ stronger than their opponents?

@drgnslayr thanks for the film.

I am in the camp that Ellis won't turn pro. But Self has to recruit as if he will. Kind of a different subject, but this is where I don't understand the mindset of Landen Lucas, for example. We talks sometimes about guys getting "recruited over." Such is the life of Landen Lucas.

Great kid, and could be playing right now in many, many other places. I get the KU thing, but he'll never get the years back. He's now had two seasons of bench time, and appears to be staring a competition with Mickelson in the face just to be the 4th big. I understand that things could break right for him, but if not, he's in the same role he was last season. And if we land a Zimmerman, or a top tier post talent for 2015-16, and Ellis stays, he's still behind the new recruit, Ellis, and Traylor (not even considering Mickelson). And then he has just one season to play. Seems like the battle with Mickelson is literally the battle of his college career.

Back to recruiting, I agree the weight issue is a consideration for Davis, but seriously, where better for the kid to go? We have the best trainer. If he comes here, I cannot imagine that weight/being in shape will hold him back. And know the type of trainer that is at KU, in advance, would indicate that he isn't a lazy kid. But I agree. Would you rather have someone without weight issues? Sure. But I'd take this risk, as opposed to a chiseled OAD.

Davis has gotten into much better shape over the summer. I don't think his weight is of much concern anymore, he has a similar build of Landon Lucas that can be fine-tuned by Hudy and the staff. His basketball ceiling might be much higher as his ranking would indicate but I do think if he came to KU that any weight concern would be washed away.

Dorsey would be a great pickup for a combo guard and someone we could get 2-3 years out of before the NBA train came calling.

I think KU will hit big in 2015 in recruiting, just waiting for the first domino to fall.

@HighEliteMajor Didn't I see you over on kusports talking about Zimmerman being the ideal recruit? :)

@icthawkfan316 Uh, yea .. and actually, I still think that. I do not think Zimmerman will be a OAD. My post here was more to avoid guys that are even in that consideration. I saw a post above referencing that Bragg might be. That's the difficulty with my simplistic analysis. There's a grey area - a maybe, maybe not. Or guys like Embiid who vault into that status. I mentioned Zimmerman here being on the fringe.

What do you think on Zimmerman, or everyone else for that matter? I love the guy. Would like to have him over Davis in a minute, but for the damned OAD possibility. So yes, I'm conflicted.

By the way, I really enjoyed reading everyone's posts. Gets the mind a thinkin'.

Heck, I even pulled @konkeyDong out of the woods ... anything that does that is a good thing, I think.

@HighEliteMajor I'm the same way, that I think Zimmerman won't be a OAD and should definitely be Self's #1 recruiting target. I was just giving you a little crap cuz I remembered reading that, but saw he wasn't included in your ideal recruiting class.

I too am in the camp that would like us to get off the OAD merry-go-round. However, something that always sticks in the back of my mind is the possibility of the NBA raising its age limit. Whoever has some of the higher ranked prospects from the year whenever they raise it will suddenly have some OAD players for two years and could really have an advantage.

P.S. You should go over to my "how good is the big 12" thread. Love to hear your opinion, mostly because I think you'll be more in my camp and would articulate arguments better than I can.

I finally took the time to really check out Stephen Zimmerman. My thoughts:

First things first, he's a lefty big man, which you rarely see. That's intriguing all by itself. He's a little thin on the frame, but I think he could fill out, so its not a huge negative. Definitely something to watch for as he goes through his senior year, though. I'd like to see him closer to 260 than the 235-240 he is right now.

Positives: He's very agile and mobile for his size. If he's a legit 7-0 (and he looks it) he moves extremely well. He's very fluid in his movement, which is important since he's a pretty tall, lanky kid. He has some explosion in his body, which allows him to finish in traffic even though he doesn't look very strong. He has a nice shooting stroke out to at least 17, maybe even a bit further. I could definitely see him developing touch out to the three point line if he doesn't already have it, because the mechanics are excellent. Great footwork in the post suggests that his is either very gifted naturally or has been coached extremely well. Knows how to use his head fakes, up and unders, etc. Can high point the ball on defense to get blocks. Handles the ball well on offense, although there is the danger that he thinks he is a better ball handler than he actually is.

Negatives: His body is probably not quite D1 ready. Very little muscle tone and quite thin. He will need to develop a lot of strength, especially in his lower half, or he will get pushed around in the post by smaller (but stronger) players. Does everything with the left hand. I watched several highlight videos and didn't see a single righty block or layup. He also tries to put the ball on the floor more than you would like to see from a big man.

Overall: I think a lot of Zimmerman, honestly. When I watched his highlights I had a flashback to something I saw back in the late 1990's. I don't think he is nearly as polished, but watch [this](

@justanotherfan I can see it, take away the domination against inferior athletes from Zimmerman's mix tapes, and you're left with a skinny big who makes good decisions, who isn't afraid to put it on the floor and attack the basket, and has a nice balanced shooting stroke.

[

@approxinfinity and @justanotherfan

Thanks for the vid feed!

I'll be surprised if Zimmerman doesn't become a Jayhawk. He just looks like the right fit.

You know a footer is the real deal when you watch him play and realize he would still be great even if he was only 6'8".

Zim is the real deal. He seems like the ultimate Bill Self player, even if he is thin. He'll strengthen up under Hudy.

Although he looks skinny, he is really not that skinny. At 240 lbs. he is about 5 pounds heavier than Withey, about the same weight of Aldrich, and Lucas, 5 lbs. lighter than Markiff and Michelson and 10 pound lighter than Embiid, KU's recent and most comparable players. Unless he has problems putting weight like Withey did, I can see Hudy getting him to 250 in his first season.

I'd like to see a dance contest between Zim and Withey....

I think the winner would reveal a lot more than just showing how badly he missed the disco era.

When Manning was in HS, I watched him carry 8 beers over his head through a moving crowd of people without spilling a drop. That's when I went over and introduced myself and let him know how impressed I was with his agility.

Zim could carry 8 beers through a crowd of people without spilling a drop. I'm not saying he is the next Danny Manning... I'm just saying he is the real deal and capable of making a big footprint on college basketball!

@drgnslayr Or.... The best waiter around!

Tyler Davis to Texas A&M. Really surprised he went there. Really surprised he didn't take his visit to KU or Baylor as he was high on them as well.

There's one domino of the 3 man class gone. Who replaces him now?

Zimmerman is likely to headed to Arizona either with Ivan Rabb together or if Rabb somehow doesn't go there. Look at the list of Zona kids that have come from their AAU team and tell me that KU or any other program involved really has a chance. I could be wrong but that AAU team is like the Arizona farm system lately. I haven't put any thought into KU landing either for that vary reason.

He would be a great get, but he's not to this point a traditional low post 7 footer. I would have preferred Davis but if we do somehow land Zimmerman, hopefully his game becomes what Self would want from a 7 footer.

@BeddieKU23 said:> he went there. Really surprised he didn't take his visit to KU or Baylor as he was high on them as well.

There's one domino of the 3 man class gone. Who replaces him now?

Zimmerman is likely to headed to Arizona either with Ivan Rabb together or if Rabb somehow doesn't go there. Look at the list of Zona kids that have come from their AAU team and tell me that KU or any other program involved really has a chance. I could be wrong but that AAU team is like

Yeah, gotta say, Davis was a big surprise. It was only a month or so ago that he said in an interview that Zona and KU were his top choices. Recruiting turns on a dime, I guess. I've heard both ways about Zimmerman: he'll stay out west, or he's hot on KU. Personally, I think he stays out west, but I also thought we were in pole position with Davis, so shows what I know...

@konkeyDong Recruiting turns on a dime, I guess.
When can he actually sign?
More than likely is dollars instead of dimes...JMO

@BeddieKU23

"He would be a great get, but he's not to this point a traditional low post 7 footer. I would have preferred Davis but if we do somehow land Zimmerman, hopefully his game becomes what Self would want from a 7 footer."

You really nailed it.

But Self has become more open-minded in the past few years and so I am of the belief he is totally going after Zim... especially after we missed on Turner a few months ago.

Either one of these guys could help Self make the case to land Thon after that.

Self knows that the times are changing... and there are footers out there with guard-like skills, including netting the long ball. We have to be able to offer these guys more than the Self hi/lo. The Self hi/lo is perfect for guys like Cliff... but there are more and more thin trees out there that can handle the ball and shoot from the perimeter. We need to be able to use these guys, too, and that won't be with the hi/lo.

Imagine the nasty sets you could run on offense if you had both Zim and Maker on the same team? Then, make sure to have a wicked swing 3 that can cut in and score inside when teams have to send their post players out on the perimeter to guard these guys.

There are so many great players out there that don't fit traditional molds and those are guys that are hard to coach against, too.

The following link is a solid (or not so solid) reason why any recruit would be crazy to sign with Arizona or UCLA:

[There is a crack bigger than Calipari's mouth...](

What do you know... there is a crack bigger than Calipari's mouth!

Ugh .. Davis goes to A&M, Shepherd last year to TCU. Weird. You're Tyler Davis and you want to play in the NBA; and you choose A&M?

Makes me wonder. Makes me wonder if he got a conditional offer from Self? Perhaps given the limited number of scholarships?

"Hey, yea, we want you, but we need to see where other guys sort out."

I heard he didn't think he'd get the playing time at Kansas.

Diallo comes to mind as a player I think could play C and give us a rim protector/high energy/rebounding machine. I think his upside is similar to Embiid's and we know Self can help with that department.
I'm just not sold on Zim in our system unless Self does indeed start switching things up. He had problems adjusting this summer to playing with a new AAU team. He got much better over the course of the summer but what will his transition period to College be for such a highly rated player. Will he struggle early and turn it on like Perry Ellis did as a freshman? I think its clear that whoever Self gets in this class he's going to want them to be a feature of the rotation, especially if the situation occured that both Alexander and Ellis went pro.

Back to Davis, it makes you wonder if he was thrown off by all the Big's visiting KU for Late Night. Did Self stop focusing on Davis, and more on Zim, Diallo, Bragg etc? Legit questions we might never know.I can understand him staying close to home and being able to be a feature in their offense with their C being a Senior, but the kid never once said A&M was a leader.
KU, Baylor, and Zona were always mentioned as his supposed "top 3". I'm not buying the playing time factor because if he's as good as he has shown this summer, he would have a legit chance to start as a freshman.

I know the prevailing thought is that we need a rim protector .. a true center type.

My thought has always been that we really don't. Give me two bad a**, athletic 4s that can play D and score, and I don't think that causes us any issues. See 2008. We did have Kaun off the bench as a nice change-up.

@Crimsonorblue22 that seems odd to me. Sure, maybe his freshman season might be a bit limited, but he'd be the man after that in the middle.

On to the next thing, as it always is in recruiting.

@HighEliteMajor He may have to fess up like that on occasion if he's pinned down by a kid who thinks he's a OAD.

@HighEliteMajor

"My thought has always been that we really don't. Give me two bad a**, athletic 4s that can play D and score, and I don't think that causes us any issues. See 2008. We did have Kaun off the bench as a nice change-up."

I agree... and it will be good for our guards to know they have to play defense. These past years were not up to snuff on the perimeter. Having the best shot blocker in college basketball worked against us often because it just enabled our guards to not play defense. The biggest element of defense is desire... we all need to remember that.

Perry also was enabled in the post.

This new team needs a new mindset. Everyone pulls their weight, on both sides of the ball. We have a bunch of tough, physical guys who seem to want to really get after it.

Did I say how excited I was for tip-off?

@drgnslayr That's a very good point. Self has conditioned us to be most attentive to the defensive end of the floor. When it is subpar, like last season, we feel like we're in a different world.

We are basically 60 days away .. less than that until camp opens. God bless America.