🏀 KuBuckets Archive

People are starting to have to defend Bill Self and others are starting to whisper maybe his seat should be hot. They cite a 'lucky' 2022 championship where Remy bailed them out. They cite the '19, '21, '23 and now '24 quick exits from the big dance as evidence that the man has lost his touch or is losing his touch.

In 2020 the counter argument goes that we had the best team in the country and were handsdown favorites to cut down the nets in early April. So, the argument goes, Bill probably has 2 championships in 3 years so the other early debacles, (and face it, Auburn, USC and Gonzaga were debacles) are somewhat expected results when you're winning Nattys in the intervening years.

Now when you win in 2020 I wonder do Dave, Och, Jalen, and Christian all stay in Lawrence driving for another championship, or do some leave school early for the league? I don't recall who was even a candidate to leave early among those guys, but winning a championship can inspire one to feel accomplished at the college level and move on.

I had the same thought in 2003 and 2008 as well. Way different situation of course, not the least of which was the coaching change. But does the dynamic of the team change enough that 2008 doesn't happen if 2003 had turned out differently?

Sad we're inventing topics to discuss in the offseason, but the time has come to start looking forward to next year and consider these things that has always interested me.

@wissox I don’t disagree with Bill taking some heat 4 of the last 5 tournaments we have gone home in the second round. Thats not acceptable for Kansas basketball IMO. 2022 we definitely got a good draw no doubt but we still had to go compete and win. 2020 we had a great team that was gonna be the number 1 overall seed but nothing is guaranteed we have lost multiple times as not only a 1 seed but the 1 overall. Before 2022 all the talking heads had declared him the greatest regular season coach because of his lack of tournament success. I think that was a pretty fair assessment of him. If he wants to be among all time greats he has to preform when it matters most. Dean Smith had similar stuff said about him and why he isnt in the conversation as a goat with the likes of Wooden, Knight, Coach K and Roy. Smith had 2 titles one with arguably the greatest player to ever step foot on a basketball court.

@kjayhawks The question I'm trying to figure out (and I know it's hard to answer ) is does KU win in 2020 and 2022 if they'd had the chance to play in a tournament in 2020? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Sure!

@wissox oh gosh. It changes so much. No covid years so we don’t have Remy or JCL. But a lot of players aren’t in that tournament so who knows?

@wissox I think we have zero chance of winning both IMO.

Let them talk. They clearly don’t know the details. That 2021 roster was trash. The 2023 roster was too thin after injuries and other exits. That’s recruiting not coaching and at least a portion of those recruiting issues from 2021 directly led to a championship in 2022. Can’t win them all or it would be boring.

One other thing I’ll add that I’ve said before, obviously 2020 is a what if. If Ochai doesn’t get a steal and a dunk against Creighton in the round of 32 in 2022 we are talking about 5 straight round of 32 loses and 95% of the fan base calling for Selfs neck. The last 5 years have not been good outside of 2022, I’m fine with that if we win another title next season.

@kjayhawks what do you want, championships or conference titles? If you had to pick?

If its championships 1/5 with a high chance of 2/5 in a field of 300 is pretty remarkable

@approxinfinity Wasn’t this always the debate? Conference champs vs National Champs. Some feel you can only win one or the other. That’s a weird position to me. I’d think conference champions were by far the bulk of the ncaa champs.

If this team could have shot for s### Juan would have led the nation in assists. I heard Self ordered new computer controlled rims for Allen.

@kjayhawks you can what if crap about the whole game. It's pointless!

wild

@Crimsonorblue22 this topic is a what if of 2020

@approxinfinity id pick National titles all day especially right now with us having more conference titles than any other program. We have dominated the B12 for so long it really doesn’t matter. We may not be capable of dominating again with the conferences new additions.

I don't know about "what if's", but I'll make a prophecy for the future.

No NCAA Men's Basketball team will ever win back to back National Championships.

Thanks, portal. Thanks, NIL.

@nuleafjhawk lol, this prophecy may not age well, even beyond the next few weeks!

@nuleafjhawk said in What about 2020?:

I don't know about "what if's", but I'll make a prophecy for the future.

No NCAA Men's Basketball team will ever win back to back National Championships.

Thanks, portal. Thanks, NIL.

UConn on line 1 for you. 🤔

@Gorilla72 Nah - they'll tank the next game.

@Gorilla72 And if they do win - Hurley would look damn good in crimson and blue.

Let the flaming arrows fly my way.....

Been busy all day, but good debate here. Yes COVID means Remy plays another year meaning we get him for a 5th. I wholeheartedly agree, no Remy, no championship.

Och steal vs. Creighton leads to win in round of 32. I guess that shows that was not our strongest team either, which I always thought. Certainly not as good as 08, and probably not as strong as other KU teams that didn't win it like in 86, 97, and 02/03.

UCONN this year? IDK. We beat them, and even then people were saying this team may not be as good as people think. We struggled with Yale and a few weaker teams and got blown out by Marquette. I had a sneaking suspicion this team might not be as strong, especially after the disaster at Central Florida. I'd be happy to have a down year or three to win a championship or even knock on the door periodically.

@wissox I think the 2022 team to me is likely the 4th or 5th best team since Bill has been here. They got a good road and that makes a difference for sure. I have always said the best team probably wins the men’s tournament 65% of the time. If they let teams host like the women’s tournament does, you wouldn’t see these upsets. If you want to find out who the best team is do that and once down to 16, do a double elimination tournament at a host site.

We without question probably don’t even make the final four without Remy. He took over a few games offensively and helped us win. Kinda like Kolek and Snead just did this past weekend. That championship game he hit some very tough shots from all over the floor, pull ups, 3s and high difficulty layups.

UConn was a great win but several things factored into it. They did have a starter hurt, it was early in the season and AFH was B-A-N-A-N-A-S from the tip. I know 30 year season ticket holders that said that was the loudest and most insane environment they have witnessed.

@kjayhawks said:

I have always said the best team probably wins the men’s tournament 65% of the time.

I think this is too high. Injuries, timing, luck and matchups makes it like 35%

@approxinfinity it definitely has hurt us a lot thinking of Doke, big Dub, kevin, Haase and Joel

@approxinfinity only 3 overall number 1 seeds have won it in the past 20 years.

so 15%

Women's bracket with home court advantage clearly eliminates nearly any upsets. Look at this year's bracket. 5 or 6 "upsets" in two rounds. It's ridiculous.

@DanR even if it was only the women's NIT last yr, KU was super successful at home.!

@DanR Or some could say they earned the advantage by performing better all season. Imagine KU’s record if the men’s games were played at home up to the elite 8!