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The fact that a player is lost to transfer is always a shock, but is it ever a surprise at Kansas? When have we ever truly been surprised by a transfer? Somewhat like the passing of an elderly relative that has been ill. We know it's going to happen, that it is just a matter of time, but that doesn't change the surprise when it actually happens, nor the sadness. I'm sad that CF has transferred. This was the destination he desired his entire life, his goal was to be a Jayhawk. And now that's gone.

But we knew the numbers didn't work out -- at least everyone at kubuckets.com knew that. But the question was always "who"? It wasn't hard to see that the loser of the Mason/Graham/CF competition was the odd man out; but even then, the loser could have won the the 5th perimeter guy spot. CF made the presumptive decision to transfer. The 5th guy -- usually scraps (6-10 minutes at most in the second half of the season) was not enough. It's just too bad he didn't do it before the semester started. He could have preserved a semester of game action.

But this is also about 2015-16. Could CF have won the 2 spot after Selden leaves? Unfortunately for Frankamp, there is a 6'8" Ukrainian standing in his way. A 6'8" stud who can shoot it just as well.

CF's decision to transfer was an excellent one in my opinion. I have read on other sites a bit of criticism of this father, that his dad or family pushed him to make this decision. Really, who better for CF to rely upon for advice? Kids ... and CF is just a kid ... rarely make well reasoned decisions, based on the proper perspective. His dad's looking out for him.

We can easily assume that Self had Mason and Graham pegged ahead of CF. That is now obvious. We heard that Mason is the starter. We've heard that Graham needs to be in the rotation. The writing was on the wall.

The recent comment by Self that CF is not a point guard was also a big indicator. That coming after Self mentioned CF by name when the PG discussion came up with Andy Katz in September. But then practice happened. Something changed.

But I will suggest that nothing changed. It was just coach Self saying the right things for the ears of his players. Self knew that CF was considering transferring last spring. So before practices get rolling, Self makes the point that CF is in the PG discussion. Makes sense. He doesn't know how practice will work out. He keeps his options open. Heck, he could know that Mason will start, but Mason could tear an ACL in the first week of practice. Then, after practices, when Self's presumption of how things are going to break is fulfilled, and after CF himself knows how things are breaking, Self offers the CF "is not a point guard" comment.

Whoever was the loser of the PG battle .. not in the top two, was gone. That seemed clear. Would the loser be content to sit behind two guys for his entire career? Sure, some suggest that a kid should stick it out. Battle. Not be selfish. But I suggest that is selfish of us. These young men only go through this once. I don't suggest that they transfer, I simply suggest that transferring is a very reasonable decision. As it stands, CF only has 2 1/2 seasons left in his college career. Players should find a place that they can play.

CF -- whose shooting went in the tank last season, should stay at a place where, at best, he is the 5th perimeter guy? At a place where Self doesn't let shooters just shoot? Where his main skill, the skill that will allow him to play pro ball somewhere, is not valued and cultivated?

No way. If I were CF I would never have come to KU in the first place. It was not a match for his skill set. Not even close. We've had that discussion -- it came up at kusports.com when he signed. How does a guy with CF's lack of size, who is not really a PG, who is a shooter, who is not a defensive wizard, get on the floor? It was a weird match.

My question is, why recruit him? If I have a criticism of coach Self in recruiting, it is that he recruits guys that are clearly not a match for his system, or his temperament. Why recruit the guy in the first place? I know, in-state, highly ranked guy. But it was never a good match. There is nothing about CF's game that matches Self-ball. There is simply no comparable player in the history of Self's tenure at KU.

And we can't blame this transfer on OADs, at least not directly. Of course, in CF's mind (and his dad's) must have been the concern that at any moment, Self could snag the next hot OAD and CF would be on the bench. That was surely a consideration. Why redshirt and risk that?

We lost Andrew White -- his fate sealed by Andrew Wiggins, and then Kelly Oubre. We lost Naadir Tharpe -- his fate sealed by his own play. We lost Conner Frankamp -- his fate sealed by competition.

Self has the luxury of a deep roster. Self has the complication of deep roster. It's a double-edged sword. Self stating that with CF's transfer that "we gained (on) some chemistry issues" was very telling. It made his life easier, to be honest. He doesn't have to stare down the bench at an otherwise deserving player, who doesn't get to play. I'm sure it wasn't easy for him to see Andrew White sitting there last season. It's much easier for Self to see Wesley sitting. Or to see a freshman sitting.

It all adds up to a transfer. It's reality at Kansas. Now on to Monday night.

I think this was the toughest decision young Conner has ever had to make in his life.

I know it caught me off guard. He seemed to be one of those guys that could never see himself being anything else than a Jayhawk. I know it was his brightest day ever when Kansas offered him a scholarship.

I'm saddened by his lost. He's the kind of guy that would have found a way to contribute to his team, regardless of the struggle he would have to go through to get there. Because of that reason, Kansas lost a valuable asset.

We all knew his shortcomings... his uphill battle. Size was his biggest issue. He also needed a bit more athleticism. Weigh that against his excellent basketball IQ, shooting ability, competitive spirit and ice in his veins in March.

I was hoping Conner stuck through all the struggle because I felt, in the long run, he was just that type of kid that it would make him that much better of a ball player. That is just my opinion. Maybe he is doing the right thing to go somewhere else where he can get some real PT and have a definite contribution role from Day 1 (when he is eligible again).

I'm not sure I see him going to WSU, but I know he often attended Shocker games before he enrolled at Kansas. So who knows.

Another aspect few have spoken about. But what about after Conner's playing days? Does coaching interest him? I wonder if he will get the maximum benefit of everything that goes with being a Jayhawk moving forward? Sure, he will always be a Jayhawk, but he won't have the 4 or 5 years of experience under Self that would look extremely good on any coaching resume. Look how many guys that have ties to Kansas are coaching in D1 and NBA.

I wish Conner all the best moving forward, and I hope he realizes his dreams. He's a great guy and will always be a Jayhawk!

Sometime you don't recruit players, players recruit you. Frankamp was a lifelong Jayhawk whose dream was to play at KU and he worked his read end off to achieve that goal, even when his physical make up did not favor playing at the higher levels...yes, other similar players have done it but they had the fortune of landing at the right place and at the right time; Conner did not.

Conner got to KU at a time where it was loaded with more athletic players with a similar skill set. At a different time, he could have started or played serious minutes for KU, much like Teahan, another one dimensional player did.

He came to KU ranked high but, at least in my opinion, he did not have the opportunity to (or could not) really show his one skill. Yes, he did not play much except for the last two games, and I get it that coming in cold and expecting to perform is tough, but remember how Teahan (in the early years) would come in at the end of the games and start hitting threes; I did not see that from Frankamp. Teahan stuck around and was a significant contributor as an upperclassman. The main difference, as I see it, is that Teahan did not have NBA dream while Frankamp does; you have to admire and respect the kid for aiming high and dreaming big.

I have consistently stated that Frankamp could be a serviceable PG, a result of his determination and dedication, but he is not built nor does he have the physical skills to play PG, the way the game is played nowadays; his role is that of a deadly outside set-up shooter. There are three players that we have discussed at length in this area, White, Greene and Frankamp and the interesting thing is that when discussing them the word "potential" is always front and center, but the reality is that neither could break into the starting line up or even get in the rotation and there comes a time when "potential" becomes "potential but not at KU" like it did for White and now Frankamp...one has to wonder how Greene is going to turn out. Maybe this is the break he needs, but if he does not see meaningful playing time fairly quickly I can see where he could become the next one to transfer. It is unfortunate but it also is the new reality resulting from new, younger, more athletic players (OADs) joining the team, albeit for a short stint; perhaps a reflection of our society at large that requires instant gratification.

I for one am very sad to see a young man's dream take a detour; I imagine that his dream, at this point, is more like a nightmare. I sincerely hope he finds a place where he can thrive. By all accounts he is a really good kid and also a Kansan and and as such I wish him the best of luck wherever he lands. Once Jayhawk, always a Jayhawk.

He appears more comfortable with the ball in his hands. Nothing wrong with that, if he can find a system that allows for it . Coach Self referred to him as a volume shooter, that has to sting a little bit. D-1 Basketball at a top 5 school is tough. Nothing is guaranteed. I think he will do fine wherever he goes. Conner can ball.

@KansasComet Here's what's interesting to me .. I could have definitely seen CF and Mason on the floor together. Different skill sets, but complementing each other. With Selden at the 3. Odd, but I think that "chemistry" would have been pretty good. Mason the penetrator. CF the shooter. Both can bring the ball up under pressure, just different styles.

@drgnslayr Man, good point about post-playing days. Having KU ties is golden. Conner is a guy who most certainly will play overseas. Slipping to mid-major will be perfect for him. I saw Butler floated out there somewhere. He'll find a good fit just like AW3 has.

Make no mistake, both AW3 and CF could have been starters here. And we could have won conference titles with them. And we could have competed for national championships with them. No doubt in my mind. Top 50 players.

The Brannen Greene "watch" is now on. What is his role? Is he satisfied? Could he transfer? Or does he seize a major role?

When Svi signed, I expressed concern about that impact. Could we lose White and Greene? Well, now it's, could we lose White, CF and Greene? Heck, playing this out, Self signs Tyler Dorsey and Jaylen Brown, and Greene is the 5th guy this season, do you think he sticks around?

Don't be surprised.

@HighEliteMajor I thought we were headed in that direction. Guess we will never know. The young guy Svi, must be pretty doggone good?

@HighEliteMajor : Does a smaller, younger and comparably ranked (espn 33rd) Dorsey (fr) beat out Greene (jr) next year? Maybe he's better than his espn ranking but I think Greene plays more than Dorsey if he's here. I do think comparably sized, higher ranked, fellow Georgian and presumed OAD Brown would play over Greene though.

@Kip_McSmithers I guess what I mean is that Mason, Graham, Svi would be the three guys handling the 1 and 2 spots. If Brown came in, given history, Brown plays over Greene as you mentioned. That makes Greene the #5 guy. Why stay to be the #5 guy again?

For that matter, if Oubre stays, same thing. I agree. Dorsey wouldn't be ahead of Greene, but Dorsey is more of a ball handler type. A true two guard, with PG aspirations. Greene more of a 3, who could play the 2 with ok ball handling. So Dorsey would fill a different role. Dorsey could be sold on the idea of getting the 2 spot his sophomore season, after Svi presumably leaves.

But I want to see this play out .. heck, Greene could explode this season. I'd love to see it.

@KansasComet Maybe just a 6'8" Conner Frankamp?

Frankamp scored at will on Svi in the scrimmage

@DanR I don't know about that. I only watched it once. But I recall one blow by and that was it -- the one where CF made a tough layup. Svi got a lot of shots, just didn't go in. Don't recall how many were vs. CF.

@HighEliteMajor That must be the case. The only thing that makes sense.

@HighEliteMajor We've talked about this countless times thru the years. Is the reality every year & effects recruiting positively & negatively each year going forward. While many of us don't like the OAD/blue chip mindset of 21st century CBB, we just have to see it as it is until the rules of eligibility are altered when kids are trying to earn PT. The bottom line is "What have you done for me lately?" Unfortunately for the kids that only get one crack to make their mark, if not enough then have a seat or hit the road. Personally I just do not like this mindset-guess I'm just too old school. Our loss will be someone else's big gain.

@globaljaybird Question for all to consider -- Does anyone think that we could not have won a national title with CF starting at the 2 and Andrew White at the 3?

Maybe I'm in the small minority here, but I think we could have. I think both players have tremendous talent. I think both could have been major contributors in their sophomore seasons.

We lament the OAD dilemmas. And I can't stand it.

What if? What if no Wiggins, no Oubre, no Graham? Selden turned pro. Assume we have White starting at the 3, CF at the 2, with Greene the first perimeter guy off the bench. Are you any less encouraged about our NC possibilities? Not me. But am I delusional?

As it is now, we're hoping Oubre develops, learns our system -- becomes ready this season. Same with Graham. We're hoping. We saw White last season. He was ready. CF proved he is ready. Self complains every season about being "young", but he has asked for it. He chose Graham over CF. He chose Oubre over White. We're young because he wants young. Don't complain about it, or use it as an excuse, anymore.

I saw a tremendous comment by a poster at kusports.com -- he said that KU has gone from developing players, to replacing them on an annual basis.

This is exactly right.

I know every player on our roster isn't an OAD. I know there are players in the gray area -- "maybe" OADs. But look at the impact. In my post above, I mentioned that OADs weren't direct cause of CF leaving, but suggested an indirect connection.

Upon reflection, I think it's bigger than that. It's not just OADs, but it's getting recruited over. It's the lack of loyalty and the lack of commitment by Self to guys on our roster. But we want that, right? We want the best players, and better players, right? The complication here is that with the highly ranked guys and OADs, they aren't coming if they don't play. That throws off the entire "competition" thing. But did Wiggins deserve to start? Sure. Embiid? Yep.

But that's not the point. Both are gone. We go from Embiid, to Alexander, to the next OAD. Or we recruit a 3-4 year guy that holds that scholarship. The Karviar Shepherd question.

This is confusing. It's a dilemma. But I feel like we're in the twilight zone. A perpetual limbo. Not knowing what the "core" of our program is. It is an uneasy feeling. Heck, we have no commits right now in the first part of November. None. When is the last time that occurred? This is some objective evidence of our state of limbo.

The CF transfer brings those feelings to the surface. As I've thought about this, it sickens me really. Maybe it's because we have lost a sure 4 year player. Maybe it's because I think Self destroyed his spirit a bit. Maybe it's because I think Self mismanages shooters. Maybe I don't know what the he** I'm talking about. I don't know. And I don't know the answer.

What I do know is that time is the only thing that will give us the answer. We won a national title with "developed" players. We have not won a national title with OADs and a "young" team yet.

I balance this against the trust of coach Self to pick the best talent for his team, and to jettison, either forcefully (Tharpe) or as a result of recruiting (White) or as a result of competition (CF).

I just enjoyed getting to know players, counting on their development, seeing their improvement, and watching them go through the program. To a large extent, that's ending.

@HighEliteMajor

"I just enjoyed getting to know players, counting on their development, seeing their improvement, and watching them go through the program. To a large extent, that's ending."

Not likely anyone could have summed up a post to define our programs present & future any better. Willing to wager that about 75% of rats on this site lament your feelings exactly the same. And I'm damn sure one of them.

@HighEliteMajor

The truth is that none of us knows what happens behind close doors. Coach Self knows every little details of what happens with the team and every individual player down to the minutia. All we can do is speculate and wait until the next version of "Beyond the Phog" comes out and we get the players and coaches perspective after the fact.

We live in a very dynamic world where things are in a constant state of flux. The OAD phenomenon is here to stay until the next trend comes along; we don't have to like it and I am sure that all coaches not named Calipari hate it as well, but unfortunately, it is the reality we live in and coaches have to learn to adapt and live with it or be left behind.

I really hate to see Frankamp leave. He along with Perry are clean cut, homegrown kids, good students, capable players and good teammates...in other words the textbook definition of "student-athlete" but in the current environment that apparently is no longer good enough. I am old fashioned and in my opinion this is not a good development; it is not good for the student-athletes, not good for the coaches, not good for the programs and not good for the sport at large, but as long as we have the Caliparis of the sport, the we are in a de-facto arms race and it is sink or swim and survival of the fittest, all rolled up in neat sports apparel package.

@HighEliteMajor I am totally with you that part of the fun of watching KU basketball (college ball in general) is seeing players develop over the years and go from the bench, to a contributor, to a star. We have been blessed to see this from Releford, Withey, EJ, Tyshawn, Morris Twins, TRob, etc. But I also agree that it is a conundrum. Can Self simply quit recruiting guys who are highly ranked? I don't think so. You play with the guys you have an you hope that they are the best players possible. The two best teams under Self (2008 and 2011 in my opinion) were packed with highly ranked high school recruits who just happened to stay around for 2-3 years. Chalmers, Rush, Collins, Shady, Morris Twins, T Rob. These guys were all very high recruits. Some of them even top 10 guys coming out of high school. I think these two teams were the perfect storm and it is what we have to hope for. Highly ranked guys with insane talent who take a year or two to develop and don't jump to the NBA right away. This is really what I was assuming Joel was going to be. A guy that by his sophomore or junior year would be great...not the #3 pick in the draft after 1 season. I am 100% convinced that is what we need. Guys like Greene, Oubre, Alexander, Ellis, Selden to all stay past year one. The OAD thing is tough to watch and UK has proved that it can be feast or famine. They are going to be great this year but if all 10 guys leave for the NBA it is going to be a tough year next year such as the NIT trip not so long ago.

What I looked forward to most this season:

1.. Ellis making the sophmore to junior jump like the Morrii and TRob made

2.. Jamari playing like (6-10) another two inches over his actual height

3.. Frankamp nailing a few late game soul-crushing daggers from three against Texas and ISU.

4.. Selden playing at 100%

5.. Mason and Greene playing under control

6.. Michelson blocking shots, running the floor and giving interviews (sharp guy)

7.. Lucas being a solid oak tree when guys get in foul trouble

8 - 99.. Other stuff (e.g., eating popcorn at AFH, watching Georges Niang get called for flopping, shoveling snow, getting diarrhea during my February trip to Mexico, etc )

100.. Inexperienced freshmen

@DanR

I can help you with shoveling snow part. You can do my driveway; I shoveled close to 70 cubic yards when we had that 18" storm a winter ago. I believe this officially qualifies you as a Bobcat front end loader.

Great post, HEM. Ive posted a few times myself your exact question: "why'd Self recruit CF to KS?" Unless CF turned out to be a quick penetrating 6ft guy like A. Miles as a PG...but we see that wasnt CF. CF lives for his own shot. Without that offensive production, CF is nothing. Definitely not glue guy.

One parallel type player could be Jeff Hawkins, a 6ft wafer mid mad-game in practice, who his own teammates voted as the best player on the team...but he couldnt get any real mpg. Naadir only played out of necessity, & Self still chose dysfunctional Naa over greenFrankamp because Naa's 3gun wasnt broke like CF's was last year (worst 3% for the season). And Self picked Mason for mpg over CF because CF's skillset and scoring mentality were NOT PG material. Mason was a penetrating 190# dynamo, like a Tyshawn with a marginal 3%. CF was definitely not a slasher. Mason beat Duke the old fashioned way. CF couldnt beat Stanford. And he was trying the Hoiberg way (3's), not the Self way. Self =who he is, and CF =who he is. Bad match, didnt work. Im ok with it, as it never made sense his being here. As you once so deftly put it regarding certain recruits: insurance for recruiting misses. CF got edged out by recruiting 'hits'.

Can't sleep....oh well....I can catch up on some EXCELLENT kubuckets reading!

Love this thread. Hate to lose CF. But VERY well stated above everyone.

Question, in this new world we live in (post 2012 title game) would Jeff Boschee be given a chance? Jerod Haase?

Is HCRW doing the same thing at UNC?

@VailHawk There were a lot of similarities between Boschee and CF.

Yep - Boschee would have been toast on this team.

@VailHawk I think Self would love those guys, ex. Travis. IMO Conner's defense held him back, more than anything. I think that's what Self meant when he said that about being a "player" rather than just a shooter.

@nuleafjhawk I can't tell if you are being truthful or sarcastic?? Big difference in those 2!

@Crimsonorblue22

"IMO Conner's defense held him back, more than anything."

I think we all thought that last year... and he clearly couldn't defend well enough in D1. But the word was out that he worked hard on his d over the summer and was vastly improved. That fed into people like me that Conner would definitely earn plenty of floor time this year. That matched my opinion of CF; he is a guy who will find a way to contribute.

I really thought CF would become another Aaron Craft. Maybe not this year... but by his junior year he would become a big factor and a huge factor by his senior year. The focus was off his volume scoring, and became more about his will and attitude, and projecting that on the floor, also to inspire his teammates.

That as the Conner Frankamp I felt like we lost on Friday.

@drgnslayr IMO, CF and Craft are as different as night and day. Craft's strength was being a tough-nose defender, fearless almost dirty. He had great handles. His weakness- shooting.

@Crimsonorblue22

Craft plays like Conner needed to if he was going to expect PT. I think the biggest difference was CF is a perimeter shooter, not so much a PG, and Craft was not a shooter, a definite PG.

The point was the scrappy play of Craft, and he represents what CF will have to do to compensate for his weakness. No one questioned Craft's ability to play d... he's all-d in the B10! He's a guy who understands x-axis and that 96% of the game is played in an area where he can dominate.

Few know CF better than me. I've watched him since he was a tike. He has the ability to scrap every bit the same as Craft. He just needs his body to catch up to his mind. A perfect situation for Hudy!

@JayHawkFanToo Last month, I let my wife make a major life decision.

We buy a snowblower or we move to Texas.

The snowblower looks very nice in my garage.

@Crimsonorblue22 lol - for once I was being serious. They were very similar in my mind. How would you describe the differences? Besides the fact that Boschee actually got to play major minutes.

@nuleafjhawk Boschee was a "player". So far, CF was a poor shooter.

@VailHawk

Big differences between Boschee/Haase and Frankamp.

Boschee was a MC Donald's All-American and stared all 4 year for Roy Williams not Coach Self (different systems) and in his first year he was selected Conference Freshman of the Year. A little taller at 6'-1"" but a lot bigger at 210 lbs. so he could hold his ground better on defense. He shot 0.356 from the 3 in his first year and has a career of 0.401 including 0.464 in his senior year.

Haase transferred from California and in his sophomore year he was select Conference Newcomer of the year, Second Team All-Conference, Conference All-defensive team and led KU in scoring. He started 99 of 101 games at KU and in his senior year he was a Wooden and Naismith award finalist. He was named a co-captain of the 1996-1997 team and was on the starting lineup with Jacque Vaughn, Scot Pollard, Raef LaFrentz and Paul Pierce, quite a line up for a team that many consider the best KU team of all time. Haase was also taller at 6'-3 and bigger at 195 lbs. He had a career 0.338 from 3 points so he was by no means a 3-point specialist, he was however a dogged defender and would have thrived on Coach Self's system; the title of hi autobiography is aptly named Floor Burns - Inside the life of a Kansas Jayhawk.

Both Boschee and Haase had an immediate impact at KU and were starters from the beginning, while Frankamp was not. Like I mentioned before, in a different year with less talent Frankamp could have been a starter or a heavy contributor such as Conner Teahan or Kevin Young; however, he came at at time where he had superior competition and he could not separate himself from the field. Nothing beats being at the right place at the right time.

@drgnslayr

I am with @Crimsonorblue22 on this one. Craft and Frankamp are completely different players with opposite strengths and weaknesses.

@nuleafjhawk

I have a 3 car garage and I can only fit one car inside and two stay in the driveway. I need to get rid of a lot of junk and make room for a snow blower. A couple of my neighbors have snow blowers which work fine for the lighter snow storms; when we have 18 inches the smaller units don't really work all that well and the larger units are needed infrequently. I have a push sled that works amazingly well and can displace a lot of snow each pass...it is still a hard 2-3 hours of work though.

@nuleafjhawk my neighbor got a new blower last year, lucky for me!!! They love "playing" w/it!

@nuleafjhawk
Tell her Texas wouldn't have been a bad option either.

@JayHawkFanToo You said, "Like I mentioned before, in a different year with less talent Frankamp could have been a starter or a heavy contributor such as Conner Teahan or Kevin Young."

And that's really all it is. Opportunity. Guys like White and CF could have been stars, and could have even been big contributors as freshmen. The opportunity to play, get their legs under them, and get better under fire.

It's where I get tired of folks who say, "Well. CF didn't shoot well last season."

But he got no real opportunity for consistent playing time. If Wiggins had a year long staph infection, and Greene separated his shoulder, where would AW3 be right now?

My bet is he'd be considered a core performer. Self has to determine the best players, but that doesn't mean the next guy isn't good, too.

Heck, Self said today that some guys don't show well in practice, but when they get in the game, they do. This exactly why Self's evaluations are not always spot on. Self doesn't let guys get in and get comfortable. Self recognized in a press conference earlier that the comfort level is important to producing. Self admits that guys don't always show their best in practice, and that in games, it's hard to get comfortable when you get the quick hook --- to me, that proves the point that we can't make really any good evaluation of the guys that get the quick hook. Not until they get meaningful, uninterrupted playing time.

Thus is why CF (and hid dad) made a wise decision. You could be the 2nd best quarterback on the planet, but if you're on the same team with the best quarterback, you get zero playing time.

@Crimsonorblue22 Hmmm. I've never heard Conner described as a "poor shooter". Now I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

If he was a poor shooter, it probably was because he was out of practice. It's very hard to shoot a high percentage with your ass glued to the bench.

@JayhawkRock78 I lived in Austin for a year in my youth. My wife and I lived in Houston for almost 10 years after we got married. I have a lot of love for the state of Texas. (not the sports teams though! lol)

@nuleafjhawk he had the worst 3 pt shooting % on the team last year.

@nuleafjhawk
Moving to Texas was a very good move for us.

@Crimsonorblue22

Close...Embiid was worse at 1-5 for 0.200... :)

I would simply add to everyone's points above...We all have seen and cussed/discussed WildBill's quick hooks. Then there's Bill's opposite supastar rules, I used to call it the RushRules, where you play early, often, and hardly ever get yanked. Recall Bobby Knight basically going off about poor play from Sherron, saying he'd "sit him down", but no quick yank from Bill on senior Sherron. Live & die with the horse that brought ya, and maybe that's another way that Self rides the percentages? Most nights I'd bet on Sherron too.

@Crimsonorblue22 Here's the deal. I think we all know that on paper, we can make statistics say whatever we want them to say.

Perry Ellis was the leading 3 pt shooter last season. .471. You want Perry bombing from downtown all day long? Nor do I.

Frankamp has the ability to push that number close to 45% consistently - IF he gets enough playing time to stay sharp. Of course he was a lousy shooter last year, he only averaged 8 minutes a game and many games he saw way less than that.

If you were just looking at paper, you could say Conner should have started instead of Andrew Wiggins - look at the turnover ratio.
CF had 3 - THREE turnovers. An avg of .111
Andrew Wiggins had 80 turnovers. An avg of 2.286.
That's why stat's aren't the only thing to consider.

I'm not Bill Self. He probably knows what's best. But it's hard for me to fathom not playing a guy like CF who is deadly from beyond the arc and the foul line, and doesn't commit a lot of stupid turnovers.

I'll be willing to bet his next coach doesn't make the same mistake.

@Crimsonorblue22 You know that CF was not the worst three point shooter on this team -- you correctly cite the percentages, but you know the percentages in this case aren't a fair indicatory. The sample size was too small, and the nature of the sample skews the reliability.

Self has admitted that he knows that his handling of shooters hurts their productivity.

But Self simply values the three point shot less than many of us do. That's all. He can't stomach what he sees as other deficiencies when compared to draining 4 of 6 threes. It's just the weight or importance he places on it.

@nuleafjhawk My bet is CF goes to a school that values his greatest attribute.

@nuleafjhawk when CF was in and not hitting, his defense killed us. That's why coach said he needs to be a player not just a shooter. He was a very "safe" pt guard. Coach likes his pt or combos, to create.

@HighEliteMajor "But Self simply values the three point shot less than many of us do."

You're right. He may want to reconsider. I know he's in love with the high-lo, but most of the time, when I do the math 3 > 2.

How many games have we lost by being outgunned? Several.

@Crimsonorblue22 I know that is a popular theory, but how do you prove it? I don't remember thinking he was a pushover on defense. Shorter than most maybe - but not afraid to step in front of someone and take a charge.

The other thing is, as stated above, he did NOT turn the ball over. Almost ever. He was smart and he was a very good free throw shooter.

Hopefully after tonight we won't be talking about him, but I just think he got a bit of a raw deal. I'm trying to put myself in his position. I'm a very competitive person and if I thought I had more to offer on the court than on the bench, I'd want to go elsewhere too.

Regarding Aaron Craft, a 6'1-6'2 sized kid who was a fighter...I'd say our best chance at an Aaron Craft was Tyrel Reed--& I think Reed had a bit more athleticism & talent than Craft, and had a ton of heart as a jayhawk. And I dont question Craft's heart either. But as we saw, Mr. Craft was outclassed, outplayed, and defeated (deep in March) by Mr.Taylor+Mr.Johnson. In those games, for reasons Im not sure (maybe just high stakes Madness), I was rooting sooo hard against Craft, not just rooting "for" KU. Maybe it was because of all that nauseating press that was all about Craft. Well, I just wanted the world to see that Bill's Boys were better, just as much of fight & heart, and beat Craft head2head, even wanted Craft to have an awful outing. And we did. Similar to how I felt after yrs of Hummel-hype. Kind of how KC made Tom Brady look awful. And deep down, I think RussRob would eat Craft's lunch, then steal the empty lunchbox back...Just like when former big10 coach Self is able to out-tough a B1G team, especially since Izzo has our number. And TRob did outplay his buddy Sullinger, just as Self outcoached Matta in those games.

Classic battles. Thanks to my kubuckets buddies for allowing me to vent about TheOhioSt...

RCJH

@ralster I think it's terrible to single out Craft.

You should take out your wrath on ALL Buckeyes (isn't that an acorn?) everywhere.

I have so much contempt for them that I don't like anyone from Ohio, anyone that wears any combination of red/silver/gray and white or anyone who has ever driven through or flown over the state of Ohio. Blah.

They are extremely close on my hate register to Mizzou, Hitler and Ebola.

But I mean that in the nicest possible way.

Here's a better comparison to CF: Brannen Greene. At work now dont recall his 3% last season, but he got just as scarce mpg (it seems) as CF did, but Greene seemed to connect on 3s alot better than CF. And both were coming in cold off the bench. And Greene got quick yanks too. So if anyone can comparo Greene's mpg & 3% then we'd be enlightened.

Additional corrollary to this cold3%shooting, is it reveals a player who is efficient of mechanics, to the point it can hit off the bench. Recall frosh Teahan, frosh Sherron were straight up money(!) from 3land off the bench. CF, methinks, is a volume shooter.

And we are really only discussing CF at all because of 3 made-3's in a lost game. My hopes for him died with each and every 3 miss all season long, just as my hope for Greene rose with each made-3 all season long.

Haha, nuleaf, yes you are correct! :)

@ralster said:

Here's a better comparison to CF: Brannen Greene. At work now dont recall his 3% last season, but he got just as scarce mpg (it seems) as CF did, but Greene seemed to connect on 3s alot better than CF. And both were coming in cold off the bench. And Greene got quick yanks too. So if anyone can comparo Greene's mpg & 3% then we'd be enlightened.

Additional corrollary to this cold3%shooting, is it reveals a player who is efficient of mechanics, to the point it can hit off the bench. Recall frosh Teahan, frosh Sherron were straight up money(!) from 3land off the bench. CF, methinks, is a volume shooter.

And we are really only discussing CF at all because of 3 made-3's in a lost game. My hopes for him died with each and every 3 miss all season long, just as my hope for Greene rose with each made-3 all season long.

Greene played 2 minutes less per game and hit 0.02% better from 3. BG also had a better FG% and FT%. He did average 0.5 to's to CF's 0.1 to's.

@nuleafjhawk yikes, rough crowd (I've flown and driven in Ohio)

Thanks for the assist on the stats, Kip! Hmm, not that much of a discrepancy...maybe my recollection was flawed. CF did protect the ball very well, while Greene was a bit careless, no doubt. Or, 3 made 3's in the final game boosted CFs % because both he and Greene dont have a big sample size of total 3att's? Good discussion. Obviously Self is looking at every aspect, not just 3%.

@JayhawkRock78 .....sigh.....well, I used to like you. lol

OK - sometimes I get a tad carried away.

@JayHawkFanToo

"I am with @Crimsonorblue22 on this one. Craft and Frankamp are completely different players with opposite strengths and weaknesses."

I think I goofed my communique... I realize the difference between these two players. I just feel CF needed to get the same scrappy side as Craft. CF and Craft have different skill sets, and CF only weighed 165 lbs soaking wet. But he has the capacity and potential attitude to become a scrappy player. That was a way in which CF could have earned big minutes in a Jayhawk uniform.

BTW: great to see some brisk conversation in here again! I guess everyone is getting psyched for the season to roll in!

@nuleafjhawk - You do get carried away sometimes... that's what I like about you! Keep it up, bud!

@nuleafjhawk I beg to differ, you did not get carried away. @JayhawkRock78 should be shunned and banned from here like the French!

ouch...

@HighEliteMajor I'm glad Coach Self realized he was pressuring his shooters. I don't think Roy ever admitted he did the same thing.

@nuleafjhawk first I like CF. I've said this before, I think it was Baylor game, CF fouled a 3 pt shooter then fouled a 2 pt shooter, 7 pts, back to back possessions. He got the hook. He's a great kid that has broken records, but if he's not hitting, it hurts to have him out there. Maybe he's better this year, I don't know???

@nuleafjhawk our family can't stand them either!! Didn't you take an ohio state fan to our game when we played them?

@JayHawkFanToo Think back about that team with Jacque Vaughn, Scot Pollard, Raef LaFrentz, Paul Pierce and Boschee, how many here would've bet the house on them winning a NC? Who knows, someone here may have.

@Crimsonorblue22 What's a snowblower? I also have a 3 car garage that I can only get my wife's car in. One stall has a garden tractor and a zero turn mower, and the other is full of power tools. But nothing called a snowblower.

@brooksmd no boat?

@Crimsonorblue22 You mean that hole in the water you throw money into? Nope.

@Crimsonorblue22 Yes, several years ago. Thank goodness we won. I would have walked the three hours home.....

@brooksmd

I have stated several times that a National Championship requires a lot of luck and by no means the best team wins. The '88 team got lucky and won the tournament but by no means was the best team that year. On the other hand, there were several KU teams including the on that we are talking about, that was head and shoulders above the others but one poor game cost them the title. This is one of the reason why I value regular season conference titles since they represent continuous excellence throughout the season and not a lucky run.

@Crimsonorblue22

You enjoy a boat two days, the day you buy it and the day you sell it.

Boats, much like swimming pools, are things that your friends end up enjoying more than you do; they enjoy them...a lot...and go home. You on the other hand have to maintain them, repair them, buy supplies, insurance...oh well. I have had both and I don't believe I would again.

I am not surprised that Frankamp transferred. He was always a guy that wanted to play at KU moreso than a guy that could absolutely play at KU.

That's not a knock on Conner, because there aren't many guys out there that could even get recruited to play at KU. But the tough thing is, being recruited to play at KU and being able to play at KU are two completely different things.

Remember Quintrell Thomas? He was kind of like Jamari Traylor. Maybe not quite as athletic, but a very similar player. He stayed one year, then went to UNLV and was a productive backup player for three years there. He likely never would have played had he remained at KU. I can't begrudge him for counting the minutes and realizing he would always be the odd man out at Kansas.

Conner was in much the same situation. I think he should seriously consider heading home to Wichita and playing for the Shockers. His size and skills would play very well in the Valley, where I think he could play 20+ mpg on a good team.

Either way, best of luck to Conner. Sometimes, the situation just isn't working, and there is nothing wrong with moving on from that.

@JayHawkFanToo A "lucky run"? Yikes .. tournaments are how real champions are decided at every level. So you value the AFC West title more for the Chiefs than a "lucky" Super Bowl run? Or if the Royals won the division, that being more valuable than a "lucky" World Series run?

"Luck" is involved in everything. In MLB, the Royals missed out on winning the division by a couple of games. So some weird bounce in a game in May, and a bad call in a game in June decided that fate then. 162 games came down to the last few games. That's no different than a tournament. Then the teams that won during the regular season didn't pan out in the playoffs. So the Royals dominant run was "lucky?"

I think it's way too dismissive to suggest that, for example, UConn's run was "lucky."

Regardless, it is how true champions are crowned, and it's how they always have been.

Sorry, not trying to start this debate again. The Royals run just added to it for me.

@HighEliteMajor

...and this is exactly why every major sport not called football plays elimination series (playoffs) and not single elimination.

You don't think KU had a lucky run in '88? Do you honestly think it was the best team that year? I am as big a KU fans as they come and I freely admit that KU was not the best team in '88 and if that tournament is played another 99 times, KU likely does not win it again. FWIW, several simulation ran afterwards verified this much after the fact. You don't think KU had a "little luck" in their win in the Championship game in '08? What do you think that the outcome would be in '08 if KU plays Memphis in a best of 3 series?

You don't think UConn was lucky last season? Going into the tournament they were not even ranked in the top 20 and there is no way you can say that they were the best team last year; KU with a healthy Embiid beats them 8 out of 10 times. They lost 2 times to SMU and Louisville and also to Houston and yes, Stanford among others. At the Tournament, they barely beat a #10 St. Joseph in OT and if not for the Niang injury they don't get past Iowa State...I call this luck. What do you think the outcome would have been had Embiid been 100% for the Tournament? Final Four? KU's bad luck was Stanford's good luck.

On the other hand, KU has had a few teams that in a "best of X" format would have won the title on more than one occasion.

As far as the Royals, in their single elimination game against Oakland, you don't think there was a "little luck" in the 9-8 win in 12 innings? On the other hand, their wins in the series were not based on one game, and the other teams had several chances to catch up. There is no luck involved when you sweep your opponents 3-0 and 4-0. If it would be single elimination in the World Series, San Francisco would have won after the first game that they won 7-1, but KC had a chance to come back and go down to the last play of the 7th game on a best of 7 series; evenly matched teams with one player (Bumgarner) being the difference.

Look at the major sports:

Basketball (NBA) - best of 5 and best of 7 series

Baseball - best of 5 and best of 7 series

Hockey - best of 7 series

Soccer (MLS) - Home and away with aggregate goal tie breaker

Soccer (world Cup) - Elimination Series and only semifinals and finals are single elimination

Tennis - Best of 5 sets

Golf- Aggregate score of 4 rounds played on 4 different days.

Football - Only sport with single elimination due to logistics. Cannot play more that once a week and series would take forever.

I am not saying that going to playoffs/series in college basketball or any other sport eliminates luck, but it would certainly makes it a whole lot less relevant than it is now

@JayHawkFanToo Detail: Soccer World Cup there are 32 teams. After the pools, there are 16 teams that play single elimination. So there are 4 rounds of single elimination, not just 2.

@HighEliteMajor I think there's a big difference between a single elimination tournament and a multi-game playoff system. The longer a series goes, the more you can mitigate statistical noise (what we usually deem as "luck" ), and thus, the more likely the best team is to emerge the victor. Obviously no system can eliminate luck completely (nor would I want one that did), but it'd be foolish to think that the NCAA tournament is really a great indicator of who the best team is in any given year. That said, the matter of luck and the way the tournament format emphasizes it is what makes March Madness March Madness. It also makes those years when you do break through all the more precious. Basketball is also a lot more like baseball than football in that the affects that any given individual player exerts on the whole team are much, much greater in forming a particular outcome, and thus, one bad game by a couple of key players is way more likely to torpedo the whole effort (although, of course, QBs have a massively disproportionate affect in football, most other positions can be covered for in one way or another).

So I don't think there's anything wrong with saying in 2014 in particular, UConn was more lucky than good (and UK too, for that matter). I would say the same thing about Zona in 97, KU in 88, or NC State in 83. That's not to say there aren't plenty of years where the best team dominates the dance (Florida in 06 and 07, UNC 09, UK 12), nor that there aren't a lot of worthy teams that get there too (UConn 11, Cuse 03). But as often as 1 seeds win the whole damn thing (a stat you're very fond of pointing out), it's actually fairly rare that they're playing fellow 1s for the title.

@JayhawkRock78 @konkeyDong

I get the logic, and get the series stuff.

But this isn't about who is the "best team." It is about who is a "champion." Best teams aren't always champions, under any format.

Best 4 of 7 doesn't account for a hot team either. We've seen that too many times to count.

It is funny how so many top programs somehow get lucky and win the NCAA tourney, isn't it? Duke, NC, KU, UConn, Kentucky, etc.

But there is no escaping the logic the two of you have suggested here. I just can't stand the inference that KU has an excuse for failing so many times to win 6 games in March. Just win the damn thing.

@JayHawkFanToo I've heard that said before (about boats). I guess it depends on the individual. I LOVE my boat. I get it ready to hit the water in late March or early April, weather permitting and use it every chance I get until late November or early December. The kids still enjoy tubing and skiing (my bones aren't wild about either one anymore) and the wife and I fish as much as we possibly can.

I had an 18' above ground pool one time that we enjoyed for 3 or 4 years, but it WAS a lot of maintenance and don't think I'd do the pool thing again. I'll just swim at the lake from my boat!

@nuleafjhawk

I am not much of a swimmer and I can sunbathe every bit a swell on my deck and the pool maintenance is a killer. I did enjoy the boat but got tired of doing all the work and having everybody else enjoy it without the responsibility. I am now perfectly happy to be a guest on somebody else's boat without any responsibility other than bringing drinks.

I am happy that you get to enjoy your boat.

@JayHawkFanToo Just did the quarterly maintenance on the flippin hot tub this weekend. Gets to be a bigger pain in the butt every time I do it. Meticulously & carefully clean the inside with rubber gloves & acidic surface concentrate-wax on, wax off, wax on, degrease the cartridge...can't get it on the redwood-oops, careful damnit ! Getting almost no use, supply costs are getting ridiculous, utility costs going lunar, & more difficult to negotiate all of the above all the while, but still can't let the chores go... But a damn good little crappie boat that you & one other person can use...If you're a "catch & fry" guy & not a catch & release fanatic, take the boat. Eating is much better for you at this age than XXX (you know what) is anyway. On top of that it lasts a helluva lot longer also !! JMO

@globaljaybird

I am not much of a fisherman either, so the boat was used for water skiing and having fun with friends. Hot tubs, pools and boats are definitely not in the future for me.