🏀 KuBuckets Archive

I never thought predicting a 30 point blow out would be too conservative.

But I nailed this one cleanly.

And board rats that think KU played poorly against UK are not letting in just how incredibly talented UK is and how many pieces this year's KU team is missing.

UK would be KU by 20-30 10 out of 10 times as things stand now.

KU did not shoot poorly, because it was having an off night shooting.

KU shot poorly, because KU has so far weak three point shooting, it runs no action to get three point shots, and even if it had guys that could gun the trey ball and even if it had run some action, UK was too long and KU was too short inside for UK not to simply stretch out as far as KU wanted to run the action and smother KU's shooters.

There is no way to hide KU's short inside players, each one with limited skill sets--not in a half court set.

Notice that UK was very happy to play it slow on both ends, because it fed directly into the enormous advantage of their overwhelming four near footers.

So: how did I know it was going to be such a blow out, when no one else, at least that I recall, predicted the same.

Because I recalled how much one footer like Withey, and then Embiid, transformed former KU teams with quite a few pieces, but not nearly enough, into formidable teams that could play top competition at least competitively and could win titles, and with two great players like TRob and Tyshaw, could milk it to a Final Two.

Multiply the effect of one footer (either Withey or Embiid) times four and add that Perry doesn't like to play the 4 against anyone longer than him, and Jam Tray is only 6-7 even with the hair, Cliff doesn't know D1 Speeds and violence, Lucas is a project without offense, and Self won't let Mickelson near the wood, and it was a million to one shot that KU would not be blown out. Never has the point spread made clearer that the point spread has nothing to do with what the score will actually be. It has to do with how many suckers believe how much hype and which way the hype is being heaped on.

Let's cut to the chase.

Mason isn't a D1 point guard.

Graham showed he doesn't really know what he's doing yet and that's why Mason got the start.

Selden is not a go get a basket guy except against guys smaller than him. B.B. King's thrill is gone. Selden's explosiveness is gone, as I have been speculating since last summer.

Oubre was a non-stop embarrassment. It was clear why Self had been hiding him. He didn't want Cal to know Oubre was sushi not even remotely cooked and ready to play.

Perry? Next.

Cliff could be something by January against inferior players, but it will be late January before he is ready just to play an all-league type even up.

Traylor? Next.

Svi looks great not making anything, but the bottom line is that most of the games we got feeds on from Eurasia, showed him shooting it just like what we have seen the first four games this season. He would be a great glue player if we had any impact players. But so far, Svi has shown nothing as far as a trey. Just a bunch of rim shots. And I think he is going to only be able to shoot a high percentage against guys he's taller than, or that cannot jump.

Greene was a huge disappointment for the second straight game. He is playing like he hasn't got it. Really, don't blame him. He's an ordinary player. He's not going to be ready for D1 till his junior season and then he will have a nice season and a Travis like senior year, if Self doesn't run him for OADs.

Lucas was 6-10 and couldn't even stay with their 6-10 guys. Next.

Mickelson? Self apparently feels he has to let Cliff, Oubre and Perry convince the fans and the players handlers that they suck and aren't ready before he is going to give Mickelson even a sniff of PT.

Bottom line: this KU does not have a single player on the team with the kind of talent and fight required to play an equal or better even up. This team is filled with guys that will only look good against players they are significantly better than.

There is not one Sherron Collins, or Mario Chalmers, or RR, or Travis, or even EJ that can go up against guys as good or better and out fight them for a win.

Could this change?

Yes, but not likely.

What this team desparately needs is ten games against inferior competition so it can learn how to run more than the first 20 pages of Self's play book.

I would not be at all surprised to see Rider clean their clocks even though gambling odds are that a badly beaten good team always comes roaring back. But i don't see this as a badly beaten good team. I see it right now as a badly beaten mediocre team at most.

And Self's performance?

Self contributed absolutely nothing.

He did not even need to make the trip.

It is the only time I can recall where he was useless as a coach.

If I were Self, I would be way more worried about what I did in Indianapolis, than what my team did.

What makes a great coach approach any game that way?

I don't know.

I'm not even sure I want to know.

Next.

@jaybate-1.0

"And board rats that think KU played poorly against UK are not letting in just how incredibly talented UK is and how many pieces this year's KU team is missing."

I think that sort of sums up everything. KU does have holes. And UK has platoons. In order to make that a game last night Calipari would have to let Self pick any 3 players he wanted for the game (to switch sides to KU). Maybe 4 players.

If Embiid and Wigs had stayed?

We still would have lost.

I still think people haven't digested Coach Larry's comment that Kentucky has the best 2 teams in Division 1.

I understand Calipari. He is able to bring in that much talent, so he does. He's like a machine... a corporate machine. The bylaws state nothing about right and wrong or empathy for anyone. The bottom line is make money. The bottom line for Cal is to win. He is able to scrape off the icing off the top of the cake, so he does. I don't blame him. But it isn't good for college hoops. And if he continues to even build stronger teams, it will take a toll on D1 gates. Fans need to feel that their team has a legitimate chance at the big prize. That feeling is starting to dissipate... even at blue bloods, like Kansas.

I'm trying to think of what other team in college basketball that can match up with Kentucky, and I can't think of one. That doesn't mean Kentucky goes undefeated... but it makes it highly likely they win out in March.

I know basketball has just begun, and we have a long season ahead... but I only see improvements for this Kentucky team. Last night Aaron had a scare with his wrist. Most teams would panic. I'm sure he is okay, but if he was out for the year, his departure would just be a tiny talent loss for this team. They can afford to lose 3 or 4 of their top players and still be a Final Four team.

KU got beat by a better team with better players and better athletes, plain and simple. But our performance was still weak and uninspired.
How many rebounds did we lose to not blocking out? And how may times did the ball get grabbed right out of our hands?
Yes, they are bigger, stronger, better and deeper...but we did not really compete the way we should have.
This was also true last year...our guys look tentative and scared and not like warriors with confidence and fight.
Is Self over-coaching his team? Are we overthinking? Or are we simply not very talented against superior opponents?
Our best chance this year is press and run and jump and shoot and create chaos. There is no way we can match up one-to-one with UK and possibly others (like TX, AZ, etc.). Need to play very scrappy team ball on O and D and let our shooters throw it up behind the line 15 times a game.

Jaybate, well put, but we all shall have the kind of angst that only royalty fans can have after a slap-in-face type of loss as this...but:

Consider your own perfect phrase from yrs back: "Self let them labor, with little input, for a reason". Notice Self was calm and had that half grin smirk in the postgame presser. He knows about 80-90% of his motivational work for the SEASON just happened, courtesy Cal's kids. Make no mistake KU has proud athletes not used to being gutted like this. Betcha they're focused and all ears now...

Point #2: We aint gettin any taller.
*

Point #3: In all our yrs, has anyone seen a team like this KY? I mean 5 guys w/7ft wingspan PLUS the athleticism to use it? Now add NC/F4 experience to 4 of those returnees.

So, right now, in early NOV...I'm taking a wait-n-see approach, a cue from Self's game- & post-game demeanor. He always says judge his teams in 1/3 season blocks of work. Judge after 10 games of experience, like you said.

And, hat's off to Cal for what he's put together, is more my thought, rather than point howitzers at Self, whose got height-challenged+greenwood currently. Goodness knows a segment of the KU fanbase will be takin shots at Self already with their .22shorts...

Young season. RCJH.

One last thought: Perry's only chance of playing at the next level is to be a wing a sling the three with consistency and confidence. He needs to play like Niang. No way he will ever compete at the highest level inside the paint.

Jhwk007, Yep. Withey would block Ellis easily. Ellis should develop his Battier-type role, but with added postgame to only use against switchoff mismatches. Lets see. I saw a pretty aggressive Ellis, yet he was outmatched.

@jaybate-1.0

Here is my assessment of this team:

My overall view is that we will end up a better team in March and perform better in March than we did last year. It is a sketchy statement because it does matter if I'm considering Embiid's absence.

Frank - Frank still has a ways to go before he is a legit PG. He seemed to panic in this game and showed a bit too much of what he did last year. Too many drives where he tries to finish himself. But... Kentucky had us sped up and a bit freaked out.

Devonte - Looks good. He's obviously young and inexperienced, and experience is what really counts at point. But I have little doubt that he'll get a big chunk of the PG PT before long.

Wayne - He is my mystery guy. I thought he was healthy and know he is capable of being explosive if he is healthy. Anything could be going on here. Maybe he is physically healthy but needs mental time to heal and play full bore.

Perry - Perry's numbers on paper have always looked good. He's a guy I've followed all through school leading up to Kansas, and he is a guy I've always been a bit disappointed in because he doesn't push hard enough. He needs some alpha dog blood and he will limit his professional career without it. That is a pity.

Kelly - He simply doesn't know what he is doing out there yet. The light bulb will come on some day, hopefully when we move into league play. He will continue to have more to offer.

Cliff - He is in the same boat as Kelly. He's like a power tool that isn't plugged in yet. But he will become a big asset for us.

Brannen - I swear the guy reads my blog on him. He has a long ways to go, but his stance has improved and it is starting to look like he will engage better in the game by lowering his center of gravity.

Svi - He's a guy who grew up playing euro-style ball and we can't forget his age. He sees the game probably better than all other players we have. He will definitely help us this year... some on shooting... some on being a play maker.

Landen - He wasn't a top tier recruit when he came to Kansas, and he still isn't top tier talent, but he has improved a great deal since coming to Kansas. He is our most fundamentally-sound player. That's a good thing to have available for post minutes.

Hunter - Who knows what he can do? He seems like a decent shot blocker, and he has some offense. But he isn't getting much time yet.

Bam-Bam - I can't say absolutely anything negative about Jamari. He was barely capable of playing D1 ball anywhere when he arrived in Lawrence. He may not compete with Kentucky bigs... but this was a guy who lived in a car and has little basketball experience. He is being asked to do a lot more than he should and he's doing his best. He doesn't lack energy... he just needs to round out his skill set and add more experience. He will be playing ball at the next level. Most likely euro ball.

This is not one of our better individual talent teams. But it may be one of our better group that can learn to play team ball. We've seen moments of good defensive pressure, even in the Kentucky game. Let's not forget how winded these guys were. Kentucky replaced their guys every 4 or 5 minutes. Wave after wave. Add in the nerves, and you've got guys that are exhausted and playing on spirit alone.

We may not lose so many guys to an early exit this year. Maybe 1 or maybe 2... I don't see more than that. We should have the nucleus of a good team next year and just need to nail down some size for the post.

I see good things ahead for Kansas basketball... just not necessarily a possible title. Mostly because of Kentucky.

Sad to be talking about next year in Nov. Truth be told, our guys are hard workers and put forth effort but the difference in talent level last night was crystal clear. UK might have the top two teams in the country.
But...a program like KU should NEVER get beat like that (or like TT game).
Bottom line: our guard play is just not very good (no point playmaker, no shut down defenders...no big time scorers...), our wing players are neither drivers nor shooters (foot work is very weak overall and shooting the three is timid and not in Self's philosophy) and our post play is good against equivalent talent but cannot elevate against superior players.
I love our guys and our team and our coach. But last night was men against boys, college against HS, NBA talent against Euro players...we can still win the big 12 and make a run, but we are a long. long way from a title any time soon.

Come on Jayhawk fans, it is not the end of the world. Yes, the game was not even close but then KU played well below average where Kentucky played the opposite and it happened to be in the same game.

If you take all the games both team will play this season and you found the average, then in a scale of:

1 - Well below average

2 - Below average

3 - Average

4 - Above average

5 - Well above average

I would say that UK played between a 4.5 and KU played a solid 1. This is not going to happen every game for either team as statistics suggest that play will revert to the mean over a number of games. Maybe at Tournament time KU plays a 4 to 5 and UK a 1 to 2 and then we might have a different outcome. I ma confident that Coach Self will right the ship and I pity Rider next Monday, I believe KU will take its frustration on them and it will not be pretty.

@jaybate-1.0
Out of the gate I will admit you see things I don't, but when I read your opening post on this thread I felt you were harsh and perhaps mean spirited.
I've never seen us get beat so badly, and I hope it never happens again while I am around. Still- I think the tone you started this thread with seems to be written in anger and disgust. Not that I didn't feel both those emotions last night. Perhaps it's therapeutic for some but you've made some pretty strong statements here. Maybe to motivate players that might see this? Not sure-but I know I've calmed down the last 24 hours. Self is fair game but these kids are 17 to what-20 years old.
I hope I can put this game behind me. I for one believe Rider will be a cakewalk and we can start healing with that game.

I think we focus a little too hard on National Championships in November. We really haven't even begun to play ball. We have lots of youth, and many guys with good upside.

This will be a different team after Christmas, a better team.... it always is.

We have pulled some real crapola play in November before... we've lost to a lot worse teams than Kentucky.

I'm looking forward to a great conference season. We've got a talented conference and it will be good times watching it all go down.

And we'll be there in March.

Let's not forget how 2011-2012 ended. We were a team without a single AA. We suffered a horrible tragedy with the loss of TRob's mom. And we went on to be National Runner-up!

I think this team can develop into every bit of what we had with that team, but we have to show some patience.

I apologize for bemoaning my grief about Kentucky dominance. We can't swim in that pool of swill any longer. We just have to do what every team has to do: play it one game at a time.

This team will surely play tougher after being humiliated this week.

I've always said this... we need to carry a chip. We last carried a chip when TRob lost his mom, and it took us all the way to the championship game. This team should carry this humiliating loss on their shoulders, and from here on out they should play for blood!

@ralster

Good take. Probably better than mine. I've tried to rethink Self's intentions in light of your take.

He probably did just tell his team to play it close to the vest because he knew they didn't have a prayer, and if they had tried to run on Cal, UK probably would have beaten us a 152 60, or whatever it was, like Roy beat UK when Pitino had been hired to clean up the Eddie mess there.

Self probably was trying to do the right thing, given what he has to work with this season. He was probably trying to scheme the lowest profile blowout he could. Better to lose 70-40, than 150-60.

Think about it: KU maybe go down as the last team to hold UK down to 70.

And I want to be clear: I'm not really grouchy at Self, or the players. I was let down that Self did not try to win, but you have forced me to think about why he did what he did and see it. At the same time, I knew there was zero chance any of our players could score on the kind of height they showed inside. Our guys have trouble handling guys an inch taller than them inside on either end.

I felt our guys played hard. I felt they ran the basic offense. I didn't feel they really cracked wide open. They just didn't have the tools to score on UK at all. And though we might have scored more points by pressing and running the margin of losing, as I have indicated, would have been waaaaaaaaay worse. It was a matter of picking which way we wanted to be killed.

Recall 'slayr saying after the 2012 finals that Cal pulled in the reins. I really thought UK could have held our team scoreless the entire second half had they wanted to. If UK had really gotten after it, I seriously doubt KU would have scored against the UK starters either half.

What I am a little annoyed at is all of our KU fans, which I hold in high esteem as sharp basketball people--not a bunch of UK yahooooos--letting the hype machine make them think there was a serious team capable of a run in March. This is Self's down season. He switched gears to OAD ball and this is the year he pays for the making the transition he made last season. Its a new game. New way of recruiting. New way of getting the meat at the market. Its going to take a couple of years to get the stars to align this way. Remember Cal has volatile downs.

What Self has to work with is a lot of somethings, but not enough of anything.

KU will win 20-25. They will look very good some games against teams with significantly less talent than KU has.

I want everyone to love this team as much as any KU team. I do. The boys deserve it. They have busted their buns already just to get in position to beat UCSB, which was a huge win for a team with this many holes and this young.

But I want our fans to get off the lotus blossoms.

This is a very average talent wise.

They shouldn't be savaged by we fans just because too many of us fell for the east coast set up--the hype that somehow Self could work miracles with big holes and lots of modestly talented players.

I'm ready for an exciting season.

All I want is to see this KU team try to get better. I am not interested in holding it to high standards yet. I'm looking forward to it fighting KSU and winning. I am not looking forward to them whipping UK.

@jaybate-1.0 said:

But i don't see this as a badly beaten good team. I see it right now as a badly beaten mediocre team at most.

I think this is a fair statement. Not sure I agree with the tough assessment of the players..

But there's a subtle theme across many posters about the coaching. Most of the comments are critical of Coach Self - that he didn't have a plan, or that his plan sucked, or that he didn't try... I don't know about that... but I do feel we need to look closer at coaching.

My hunch right now is that Self is not surrounded by the quality of assistants that he was in the first 8 years at KU. He has put more of an emphasis on recruiting and lost some X & O grey matter. He's lost some important x-factor in the locker room... the toughness.. the energy.

And -- yes -- the teaching.

We're reminded that it's early in the season and we'll improve. Well, that is certainly what we hope. But I didn't think that last year's team improved much (compare the way we played in Nov against Duke to any game in February).

I'm not convinced this team will improve. And if this is true, I will not lay the blame on the players. If the team does not improve substantially by March, it's on the staff.

And that does bring me back to Coach Self, but not because of his game plan or his recruiting or his ability to make mid-game adjustments... but rather because of his recent hiring decisions when re-building the staff.

I don't mean to pile on about the coaching, but @Jesse-Newell has a great article about the insanity of our approach: doing the same thing (drive and shoot) over and over and expecting a different outcome.

http://cjonline.com/blog-post/jesse-newell/2014-11-19/kureview-definition-insanity ↗ ↗

Nice posts. I had something typed up similar to these thoughts yesterday morning, but there was so much vitriol that I just deleted it.

I wanted to believe for a few minutes that Self was letting these guys learn a lesson that they could not win playing it "their way." Their way was selfish and based on individual performance. But the more I thought about it, I know Self's ego would never take a loss like that, learning lesson or not.

And judging through cameras & a thousand miles away, I thought Self perceived the pre-game mishap with Cal as a dis. I think it embarrassed him and he never snapped out of it. That's a long-shot, presupposition, but just my read on it.

Yesterday I posted that I am beyond mad that we did not shoot enough 3's and that we need to shoot more from deep this year as we don't have that much size. Obviously almost everyone on this board agrees. But after another night of thinking about this game I am wondering...who is going to take all of these 3's? Brannen Green barely sees the floor. AW3 and CF are no longer on the team. Who are our great shooters that see minutes? Selden has changed his shot and does not look incredibly confident. Svi has a great looking stroke but the shots are not going through the net. Oubre has a pretty good looking stroke as well but appears streaky and I have no idea what his minutes are going to be like...4 total minutes one game, starting the next game. Mason and Graham are both not pure shooters. I guess what I am saying is I would love love love to see more 3's but I am not sure we are a very good shooting team now that the best 3 shooters we have recruited in years are either on the bench or transferred away.

This really drives home the OAD point home. Recruiting 4 year players is not an option if UK continues to recruit the way it has been doing for the past 5 years... Top 100 recruits want pt and transfer before they have a chance for a coach to develop them and top 25 recruits can win championships together with the right amount of motivation. UK will set a record this year with the most players from one team to get drafted and Cal will bring in another HUGE class. We are going to play 2nd fiddle again next year unless Self and company can out recruit Cal RIGHT NOW!!! Promise PT and over recruit NOW or let UK continue their dominance for however long Cal is there and probably beyond!

Sign with NIKE, hire Cal's entire staff, and start finding a huge rap star for next years Late Night Immediately!!! Do SOMETHING to land more top players than Cal or continue to lose to UK for the rest of your tenure HCBS!!!

@Statmachine Promise playing time? I guess half a game pt works.

Sort of seems like a big crossroads, regarding recruiting philosophy...I know we shouldnt overreact so early in the season.

Look at the KU roster: Selden, 6'5 top20 McDAA,

Cliff, 6'8 top10 McDAA,

Oubre, 6'7 top15 McDAA

Ellis, 6'8 top30 McDAA

Sviatoslav M., 6'7 5star

Greene, 6'7 top30 ?4star

Graham, 6'2 4star

And since pre-college rankings are hard to still apply to the now-developed upperclassman like Traylor or Lucas, what do you do with those guys: can they compete now? Mason is in-between, as he has the swagger, but not the height. He tried the same thing he did to Duke, but Duke last year was smallball, & while Mason earned trips to FT line vs Duke, he got swatted clean by KY.

I do think that with memories of goodTyshawn and Sherron still in his head, Self has gravitated to the alpha-dog attacking PG. That will work against 99.6% of the 300+ Div1 teams. We played that .3%, or 1 out of 300 teams it wont...(or just didnt in that game, but I doubt it, as the intrasquad dynamic on the KY roster is that now they are truly competing against each other, platoonA vs platoonB, in live games...and my feeling is that KY just SOLVED the question on how to keep more than 4-5 McDAAs happy: call em all starters & rotate em, & have them try to outdo ea other, which could lead to very high level, athletic play.)

Problem for the rest of Div1 is that all others trying to duplicate KY would be seen as copycats. Cal will say "of course they want to copy what Im doing".

Best bet is to have at least 2 athletic guys over 6'11, and a very athletic top8 players...so, eventhough your starters may play 30-35min against a 12-deep KY, your 5guys on the floor will matchup perfectly with whatever 5 bodies KY has on the floor. Who knows, "enough mpg" also allows players to find a rhythm offensively...& it could turn into KY platoon A nor B able to stop certain plays or players...? But gotta have a well drilled unit to keep executing...which we arent there yet...

On the bright side, recalling how fugly we looked vs zones last year--> against UCSB, who went zone & tried to muddy the game, I thought KU handled a zone-D well. Clearly, least year embarrassed Self, and we've worked on zone busting. But KY doesnt have to go zone, as they are athletic enough not to have to. It was an old saying that zoneD is what "tired" or "less athletic' teams did (& I'm not talking about Boeheim/'Cuse).

To be blunt simple: The KY/KU game was an example of KU getting beat by a better version of ourselves, is all. We usually out-athlete, out 50/50, out-rebound, and out-D opponents. Usually our offensiveFG% is better (the whole high%looks/"good shots" idea)...but KY was able to flip the script. We werent able to match, thus that is where the analytical focus should be. Hint: that last 4 min of the 1st half, when THIS KU roster did an 11-3 run...that is where the bldg blocks lie, right?

Now, for my fellow blueblood fans: which blueblood would matchup with this KY? Personally, I think Duke: they have a 7ftr Okafor that truly is better than any 1 7ftr on KY. And Coach K has them shooting 3s as part of their philosophy. If they can get fundamentally sound, they have a chance. Next, is UNC. I just wonder about toughness...but Roy may have them ready...(again the early-season thing...just like KU's issue). And an intriguing team is TX, although not a royalty program, they could be an elite-type matchup with 7ft Turner. But is he tough? I saw Okafor of Duke play, and he is Embiid-like good for a frosh, 260+lb athleyic 7ftr. Duke looked like the #4 team early. We got paper stats, but the team cant back that up yet as our system hasnt assimilated the newbies. For KU under Self, that process has always, always(!) taken 10-15games of experience. And we are starting more anew than you'd think: no BigBlack, no Embiid, no Wiggy, no Tharpe, no Frankamp, no AW3...so even in the practice gym, guys have started anew with the chemistry & Self playbook. Now you have Selden testing his explosiveness, like BRush, recall took half a season before he trusted his knee.. Add Svi, add Lucas to rotation mpg & starter pkgs (not scout team pkgs), add Oubre, add Cliff, add Graham. Which puts Mason on a learning curve w/the new guys. I mean, in FM3's defense, maybe he'd dish more if a wing was crashing in for a baseline lob-dunk or something? (Hint to Svi, Greene, Oubre).

So regarding that royalty/KU team...we are recognizing that its an experience+chemistry thing, both of which fluctuate wildly, depending on which kids Self puts on the floor at any give moment at this point in Nov....easily exposed by a legit NC contender, not just a Final 4 contender. KY really does have all the parts (& spares), and the experience in 4 of their guys...

Its up to these other teams with good players and coaches to close the gap.

I saw something I didn't know prior to.

Kentucky had something like 16 days more of practice than us before this game. Talk about a crazy advantage! I wondered why they looked more polished than us, especially playing a platoon system.

@ralster - I like your comparisons, and I would take the bait if Kentucky didn't play with 2 teams. They can't really get in foul trouble.. and they play fresh legs every few minutes. Kentucky will wear down Duke and UNC... especially in March. March comes and most teams are already a bit beat down from a long season, then the big lights come on. There is big stress in March, and guys do rise to the occasion... but that rise comes with a cost; energy. As long as Kentucky brings motivation to their games, there isn't another team that can run with them. It's brute force basketball.

Kentucky let up on us in the 2nd half. They really put the romp on us because we melted down. We were exhausted.

Now imagine Kentucky in March, in a heated battle and a tied half time score. They will come out and put the big pressure on. They'll run and run and run. That's all they have to do to win. They are playing 2 teams. They actually have at least 12 guys that can really ball, maybe 13.

I'm speculating that they won't have a super melt down this year. Like... Kentucky goes under NCAA investigation... or a plane crash... or Ebola hits the campus of Kentucky. But otherwise... they can afford to lose a couple of guys to injury and they can mend over it and still dominate.

I've never seen a college team anywhere near this team in quantity talent. It is overwhelming. The size is one aspect... but just the quantity and quality is over the top!

How much better are we really going to get over the season. With a game like we just had, is our ceiling really that much higher for the rest of the season?

We've seen plenty of good teams already who are playing at a high level. That is something we are not doing to begin the season. I think its troubling to already be seeing this.

We can clearly say that in the first 2 games, KU has not played at any level that is expected. And that's so uncharacteristic of the program. We have guys that have experience, and years of playing and yet they all looked like 2nd game freshman. I'm not saying we should be playing like we would expect to be playing in March or even Conference play, but to be so far away from what we would expect to be at is what is bothering me the most.

I didn't think we would beat UK but a 32 point defeat is deflating. Can Self really get them to forget it just like that, and focus on the improvement needed for the next game.
I saw such non-effort in the game that I started wondering if we will even beat Rider Monday? Rider of all teams. I thought the upcoming games against Florida and the tournament in Orlando would be fairly easy games to win but you can't feel confident that is the case with the way we played.

@BeddieKU23

"With a game like we just had, is our ceiling really that much higher for the rest of the season?"

Yes. We will improve dramatically over the next months... especially over Christmas, when guys can just focus on ball and we are allowed longer practices.

This game came too early. We are young, and we played a team that had been practicing about TWICE as long as we have!

Have some patience. We've lost to a lot worse teams than Kentucky in November!

Getting humiliated should help these guys focus harder and remain humble.

For some reason, the rest of the country still thinks we are a great team.
We get the 4th worst beating in the history of Jayhawk Basketball and stay at number 5 in the polls. Sadly, Jaybate, I am afraid you speak the truth. Your early prediction of us not getting a Big 12 title might be true. Texas has two monsters this year with a great point guard. Oklahoma is stacked and we are without a leader on the floor. The only players on the court that did not seem intimidated were Mari and Svi. Self turned this program into a powerhouse that has always been well oiled. He has said publicly that we are a long way from being good. We should believe him. He also said we are going to be good. Once again, we should believe him. Like Fran Tarkington said on SNL, "We'll make it to the Super Bowl again this year and again, we'll lose."

Kentucky, much to my chagrin, will not get beat this season. All 10 of their platoon players will get drafted in '15.
Sure, there might be a team that would challenge Kentucky in March. Duke and Wisconsin come to mind. But challenge is different from beat. No team in Div I can beat them, or will beat them this season.
Calipari has an extremely unfair advantage, one that cannot be legal. There has to be something illegal about how he is going about his business. Has. To. Be.
The guy is a snake, a snake with a history of questionable morals and ethics. Why does everyone just assume he will play it straight right now? Especially considering his history at UMASS and Memphis.

@wrwlumpy

It is hard to think positive about Jayhawk basketball right after this stomping. But this game was like sending a group of new army recruits into slaughter. Kentucky is stacked and had more time to prepare. I'm not saying we will be able to beat Kentucky in March. I'm not saying that about any team!

We can't just compare ourselves to Kentucky. We first must compare ourselves to teams in our league. Yes... OU and UT look tough. Yeah, I remember when KD played for UT. We thought they would kill us then, too.

Look at history. Look at the last 10 years because we have the same coach today. We are the only team that seems to know how to play on the road in our league. And we don't play too shabby at home. There is a reason why we won 10 consecutive titles. It's the same reason that holds true today; "the B12 championship goes through Lawrence!" And until that statement is proven otherwise, it remains the best indicator for what will come.

Let's see what Texas does against Kentucky. I bet Myles Turner gets batted around like a praying mantis.

@Lulufulu

I feel the same way you do. Calipari couldn't get a date with my sister or daughter... over my dead body! His recent interview, questioning his past made him stink more. He turned it into a recruiting interview. And then him and Rose settle out of court on the lawsuit from Memphis ticket holders. I understand why he wouldn't want to go to court. He's like a kid standing beside an empty cookie jar with crumbs around his lips, but no proof he ate them!

And it is worse for all of us because we feel like we become the victim of his cheating (if he is cheating). Imagine Chalmers missed that shot? We later wouldn't have been given the crown.

I'm speculating that they won't have a super melt down this year. Like... Kentucky goes under NCAA investigation... or a plane crash... or Ebola hits the campus of Kentucky. But otherwise... they can afford to lose a couple of guys to injury and they can mend over it and still dominate.

Am I wrong to hope for one of those super melt down things to happen to UK? I mean, that would be incredibly awesome!!

For all the Calipari bashing, here and in every other thread, is there really any one out there in poster land that wouldn't take him as our head coach?

If not, why? And please use some other reason than he's a slimy, two faced greaseball who wins a helluva lot of basketball games.

@nuleafjhawk

I am not certain why you take a relevant criticism of the man off the table. Yes he wins a lot of games. Many of which have been vacated. Yes he is a great recruiter who has left two programs on probation.

I don't particularly think he is that great of a coach. Many of his teams rely solely on the recruiting advantage he attains. See his loss to Robert Morris a couple years ago with a team full of all stars as an example of his coaching ability. That team never looked to have been coached.

In my opinion, he is slimy, he is two faced, and he isn't anyone I would want as the coach of KU.

@Kong Good points.

He also beat the piss out of the second most winning team of all time.

"Many of his teams rely solely on the recruiting advantage he attains."

Plus that ^ little ditty.

@nuleafjhawk

So, it appears that you agree he is a slimy, two faced, mediocre person who appears to be a fantastic recruiter who has left multiple teams penalized and forfeiting games.

It also appears that you would be okay with that. You are certainly welcome to that point of view, it just isn't a lot of other peoples choice.

@Lulufulu

"Am I wrong to hope for one of those super melt down things to happen to UK? I mean, that would be incredibly awesome!!"

Your frustration makes you think thoughts you shouldn't be thinking. I've done the same. But after calmer thoughts prevail, it's just a game of basketball and we are talking about human life. I think when we have thoughts like that it means we need just a bit more distance from the game. We've made it too big a part of our lives, and we need to look around at other things near us that we should probably put that attention on... like loved ones. I relate very much to what you've been thinking and feeling.

@nuleafjhawk

I would disown Kansas basketball if Calipari became the coach. Winning isn't everything. This Kentucky team will probably stomp everyone this year.. but it won't be pretty, and it won't be the game I've always enjoyed. It's just a game of bullying on the playground. And if Kentucky continues to distort the game of basketball, you will see massive herds of fans across America flip the channel to ice hockey and any other game they can get their hands on, because there won't be anything to watch any longer.

Fans across this country all share a common dream; that their team will win it all, either by favorite or by being the next Cinderella. What Kentucky is developing removes that spirit.

Kentucky seems to be building better teams every year. This looks to be their current pinnacle team. But what about next year? Anyone looking at that yet? Do we really think all 9 of those McDs AAs will go pro next year? They've got McD's stacked up higher than McD's can stack burgers.

What you are seeing is the new norm. The platoon system has to work for Calipari, because he will have 9 or 10 McDs AAs next year, the year after that, and the years after that. And imagine if they win it all, and stomp the heads in of everyone, including the rest of the blue bloods. What top tier player will want to go anywhere else but Kentucky? And go somewhere else to get humiliated?

I think this is making a total laughing stock of the entire game of college basketball. Kentucky made Bill Self look really really bad. They will do that to Roy, Coach K, Izzo... They'll make a joke out of everyone.

I could see, if this gets worse, and it goes on for say 5 years, and the fans drop off, and the money tightens... I could see the NCAA finally stepping in and making a recruit system limiting talent on teams. I'm not sure it would be allowed because of federal laws, because we are talking about student-athletes, not pro athletes. Then the education factor comes into play, and a coach like Calipari might even game the system to have what he has now.

Kentucky will dig their own grave. No teams will want to play them. I hope we never play them again. I'd rather play Mizzou. Uk is playing demoralizing basketball... dehumanizing... they are set to rape teams, players, fans... strip them of their dignity, murder their dreams. I've never felt it this bad in KU chat rooms. Fans feel stripped and naked. Is Coach Self really a great coach? Really? We have to ask ourselves that? We are searching for identity. That wasn't just a loss, it was rape.

What @Lulufulu mentioned is thoughts that probably raced through many of your heads. Those thoughts went through mine. I don't think us fans are people normally having these thoughts. I don't think that way about the guy who cut in front of me at the market, or the guy who flipped me off with his road rage.

Basketball is truly America's game. And in Kansas... this is who we are. We identify with having the fortune of Dr. Naismith walking our very campus. We appreciate good basketball, excellent coaching, hard fought battles. We don't appreciate agency teams stock full of McD's AAs tromping on the dreams of other teams and players, from Kansas or anywhere else. I'd feel just as sick to my stomach to watch what happened to us see it happen to anyone else. Those are the kinds of events that scar players permanently... or can. Players can also get stronger from it. Just like rape. Some people spin their world in a victim circle perpetually afterwards, some actually develop into something else that is stronger because they don't want to lose to rapists their entire life.

Maybe I"m overreacting. Maybe Kansas just played so so bad. And maybe Kentucky won't have it so easy all year. Maybe, maybe, maybe. I think Kentucky is going to murder teams, while high-5ing, hugging and laughing.... right over the dreams of guys who have given so much of their time and energy to the game... a game that helped form their identity. And identity of hopes and dreams. Shattered in a couple of hours. A game turned into a nightmare. A game where they used to have a sense of control, and now they experience no control, only pain, and left in an identity crisis. Like I said... rape.

@wrwlumpy The number 5 ranking was from before the game. We were dropped to number 9 in CBS Sports 25 and 1 poll the day after the game.

@drgnslayr

Clear thinking. Powerful writing. Wish it didn't have to be on this subject, but ten Mickey D's on one team is not Division 1. It is Division 0--as in a division with UK and no one else. Imagine Duke in D-II. It would do exactly what you rightly forecast UK doing in D-I.

Divisions are created to put groups of teams together that will have several teams that can compete for the ring.

What Kentucky has done leaves the NCAA only one choice. Create a new division for teams with more than five Mickey Ds. UK can schedule the D-I teams, but it has to play in a Division 0 post season tournament. Division I goes on as usual except for no Kentucky, which, when I think about it, would be even better than not having Mizzou in the Big 12.

Rock Chalk.

@Kong Thank you so much for your permission to have my point of view! It is very much appreciated.

My point is this: Not one of you personally knows John Calipari. Myself included. Yes, we're all aware of his reputation.

Is it possible that, in the wide, wide world of sports that we tend to "hate" people, teams, organizations because maybe we're a teensy bit jealous of them? Hmmmmm.

Anybody hate Coach K? ( I'm raising my hand )

Anybody hate Christian Laettner? ( hand's still up )

University of North Carolina? Duke? Kentucky? U-Conn (Men & Women's), New England Patriots, San Francisco Giants, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady......on and on and on. ( Yes, my hand's still up.....)

Oh yeah - a few years ago the University of Illinois had this arrogant prick of a "coach" that we all hated. He couldn't coach his way out of a wet paper bag. He just recruited (or was it "hired") thugs from the inner city to come in and beat, bang and bruise the opponents until they wore out. What was his name again?

I don't give a crap about Calipari one way or the other. I just think it's ridiculous for everyone to point fingers and degrade him when no one really knows him. If you want to talk about his ability to coach, I double dog dare you to compare his stats with Bill Self. Any number of websites can help you with that, statsheet.com being one of them. They're the same person when it comes to what happens on the court. Their stats are virtually identical.

@drgnslayr I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't see you disowning KU basketball even if Charles Manson were the coach. You seem to invest about as much energy, time and insight into the program as some of the paid staff ! (That's a compliment, by the way)

You're right about fans flipping to ice hockey though. It's not just the University of McDonalds in Lexington that's dragging college basketball down though. For me, most of it is the work of the NBA and the OAD "system".

Up until about 5 years ago, I recorded every KU game, exhibitions included. I would watch them over and over, not to dissect game plans or study x's and o's, just because I loved watching them. Now I rarely record a game, because my interest level is nowhere near where it used to be. (But my blood pressure's a helluva lot lower....)

I used to love watching kids " grow up " over the course of 4 years. I was so disappointed when Paul Pierce left after 3 years, now I would do a double back flip and land on my pinkie if anyone stayed three years.

@nuleafjhawk

I am glad you like the guy, but you have several false premises in this. First let me say that I don't "hate" anyone. I dislike a lot of folks, but I also respect what they have done.

Second, Comparing Coach K to the Squid, is like comparing a successful businessman with a drug dealer. Sure, they both make money, but one of them has done illegal activites and I wouldn't want that someone running my company.

And the stats are NOT nearly identical. How many programs have been put on probation as a result of events that took place while Self was there? How many games have been vacated by Self?

This isn't about knowing anyone. Your original question was whether or not we would take him as a coach. Given his past transgressions, my answer is a resounding heck no. It has nothing to do with knowing him, liking him, or anything of that ilk. But given his past history with run ins with the NCAA, having games vacated, programs put on probation, etc. There isn't a chance in hades I would want him as our coach. You seem to believe that winning trumps everything else. I don't. Many others don't.

Oh yes.... One more thing... You may also feel free to continue holding that opinion! ;-)

As for your comments on the state of the game. I am right there with you. I quit watching pro sports for a variety of reasons, not the least of which were the strikes and trading of players so much that you wound up rooting for a Jersey instead of a player. College ball is rapidly turning into the same thing. Not nearly as enjoyable to me.

@Kong

I SAY - "I don't give a crap about Calipari one way or the other."

YOU HEAR - "I am glad you like the guy"

mmmmmmm - has your wife, girlfriend or significant other ever casually mentioned that maybe you don't listen as well as you could?

And I have no false premises. I said it's ridiculous for people to degrade him without knowing all the facts and that he wins a lot of basketball games. Not false. And their STATS, just like I said, are virtually identical. Not their personalities, not their perceived or actual indiscretions - their STATS.

One other thing. How badly is your world going to crumble when Bill Self is accused of some sort of immoral/illegal activity? Cheating on his wife. Cheating on his taxes. Only tipping the waitress 5 %. Not weedeating his yard every time he mows. Telling the world that he doesn't wear a rug.

It could happen. He's human too my friend.

@drgnslayr Hey thanks for validating my feelings. Good post. Very harsh analogy but I think it is also a valid one.

@nuleafjhawk I actually respect Coach K very very much. I really dont have a problem with Duke basketball. Coach K seems to have a higher moral standard than Calipari. Coach K holds himself with an air of respect and dignity that Calipari would never be able to emulate.
I respect UNC as a university and a basketball program, current scandal not withstanding.
I respect UCONN, I was happy when they won it all last year.
I don't particularly care for Peyton Manning but again, he seems to be a stand up guy.
Calipari is a leech upon the face of College Basketball and he should be banned from coaching the game. Dr. Naismith is probably rolling over in his grave right now in disgust.

@nuleafjhawk

My world will not be effected at all by anything that might happen to Self. If he is accused of and found to have been doing in appropriate activities, then he and KU will suffer. Me? Not a bit.

If they are the type and degree with which the Squid has done things, then I won't want him as KU's coach either. But thank you for caring about me. It means soooo much. For the record, I enjoy KU sports, but I actually have a life beyond it. KU sports is entertainment, not a great deal more. I don't get too high when we win, nor too low when we lose. But since I am connected to the University, I would like it to not hire folks like the Squid.

Your words belie your intentions. You are openly stating you would take him as our coach and trying to say those with reason to not want him are baseless, yet you say you done give a crap about him. You like him enough due to his winning percentages. that is all I meant by you liking the guy.

mmmmmmmm - has your husband, boyfriend or significant other ever casually mentioned that maybe you read waaaaay too much into simple statements. Only assuming you are female as that is something an old girlfriend used to do. My only point of comparison.

So let me see if I can recap, you asked whether anyone would take him or not, tried to dismiss what I consider to be valid arguments, and when presented with an alternative to accepting him with open arms, attacked me personally. Since I am new here, is this how you always operate, or you just treating the newbie all special and such.

@Kong I didn't actually say that I would take him as KU's coach, rather I asked if there was anyone that would not.

You would know how I "operate" if you've ever read anything here before joining.

I'm done with the negativity. This is a forum where everyone is entitled to their opinions and for the most part, we all get along very well. I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot. There is no BUT.

RCJH

@nuleafjhawk

No worries, all is good.

No BUT here either

@Kong There is a butt, and its on Calipari's face! HA!
Ok, that was my first and last childish out burst...for the day.

@Lulufulu

Yeah, it was harsh. And very hard to write.

I am the first one to admit that I'm not fair with Calipari. I can't see straight with that guy. He may be playing by the books. He may not be. But I'm the last guy to write anything objective about him because I just can't stand the guy. I'll admit it. And a big part of what I don't like is that he pushes the status quo on college basketball. I've seen this coming for a long long time. Where he would gain control of the college game, and degrade competitive fairness. Where what we experienced Tuesday would become the norm, and the game would suffer from it. I say all this not because it is Kentucky or Calipari... I'd be even more ticked off if this was Self and Kansas. I would hate to be the culprit of this degradation of the game I love.

I have a hard time rationalizing that he is just that much better of a recruiter than the entire D1 field of coaches. I just don't buy it, and never will. I can not rationalize that these HS kids (and their parents) don't see the value of other coaches and programs to the level this is happening. There is no logic to it. No college coach, playing by the books, has such an unfair advantage to acquire this much talent. He is not the "genie in the bottle."

Anyone in here feel free to call me on this at anytime. When I'm on a Calipari rampage any of you can back me down with, "yeah, but drgnslayr, you can't be objective."

I'm guilty.

But I do feel what I wrote above. And it wasn't all about "hate Calipari." A bigger part of it as how I see college basketball unraveling. I do agree with @nuleafjhawk that the OAD situation is ruining college hoops. And there are other things, too. The over-commercialization and where the actual players can get a college education, but nothing more. Many of these guys face permanent disability from playing college sports. That is something they will have to live with forever and I can't rationalize that they only get free classes from it while the university soaks in millions (actually, it is billions now when you look at endowments, which are largely influenced by sports). There is a big part of my rub.

I think I was 5 yrs old when my dad took me to my first college basketball game. I experienced the magnitude of a big arena, the crowd of screaming fans, nasty salty popcorn and hot dogs made in the 17th-century. It was all magic to me, and through my youth the magic only grew. I've attended probably hundreds of games... from JHS to HS to college to NBA. It is part of my fabric, and I see it as my identity and part of being from Kansas!

Pollard nailed it:

"Of the 32-point margin of defeat, Pollard said: “In the NBA you get beat like that you’ve got a game the next night, but in college they are going to have some practices this week. They’ve got a game Monday (7 p.m. vs. Rider, Allen Fieldhouse). He’ll get ’em back in practice, they’ll be back to playing normal college basketball teams instead of NBA all-star teams and they’re going to be just fine.”"

@nuleafjhawk

I feel your pain. I constantly see members indicating that Calipari is not a good coach; however, every list I have seen that ranks top college coaches, has Calipari ranked in the top 10 and most in the top 5. As I have said before, underestimate Calipari at your own risk.
Maybe we don't agree with his methods (me, me, me), or don't like his personality (me, me, me) but it is hard to argue with the results.