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I always thought Traylor could be a big 3, but...

In a season in which necessity is not only the mother of invention, but the father and grand parents of it, too, KU's Bill Self is taking player roles to a new level.

Self has played a shooting guard at point, a 3 at 2, not one but two PGs at 3, three 3s at 4, a 4 at 5, and now in something of a flourish, may play a small 4, Jamari Traylor, who has already been playing 5, to--get this--not just a 3--but a ball handling 3.

Oh, and along the way his best rebounder has become his 5-10 shooting guard, Frank Mason, starting at point guard.

Say what?!!!!!!!

Self started the season saying Selden would probably play everywhere but 5.

Didn't happen....yet.

Instead Self gave that Selden idea an Einsteinian flip.

Recall Einstein? He was a scientist who was really an inventor of theories, see? Before Einstein, light was a variable and a lot of other things were constants. Sitting in a patent office, because he was too weird to get a professing gig, yet, Al decided light was a constant and all the other stuff was variable. And that made all the difference.

Similarly, Self decided to hold Selden constant and turn most every one else into a flipping variable!

Bill is inventing this shizzle as he goes along...like all geniuses do.

Selden is the nucleus of team amoeba!

Protean!

They don't know what we are going to do because we don't know what we are going to do; that came from the nucleus--Wayne Selden--the constant.

James Naismith would have recognized what Self is up to instantly.

Jimmy would say: "Forest, our boy is doing a pretty good impression of Thomas Edison, isn't he?"

@jaybate-1.0 Pull quote from Coach Self ( KUSPORTS.COM)

** "Self said walk-on Evan Manning could be used at the point to go with Wayne Selden Jr. and even forward Jamari Traylor in some situations."**

Our new point guard ... Jamari?

Traylor Absurdity

@jaybate-1.0 - Glad you started this thread. We can put this to rest quickly.

This is typical Bill Self absurdity. In yesterday's game, Traylor got stuck once dribbling the ball down the court. I'm sure that's what triggered the ridiculous comment by Self in the post game press conference.

Personally, I don't know why he does this. I would say that it makes him look like an idiot, but I know that he doesn't mean it. It is patently absurd.

Think about every basketball game you have seen. Have you ever seen someone with Traylor's skill set play point or initiate the offense for any stretch? Of course not. Absurd.

Remember the 2011-12 season when talked about having Kevin Young play point guard? Self says stupid crap like this every so often. Self talks in the preseason about how we're best with more ball handlers, and then he tosses this out?

The Young comment was nearly as absurd as this. Traylor can't dribble the ball, he's poor passer, he barely qualifies as a full time big off the bench. I feel embarrassed saying the obvious. Yesterday was one of his better efforts of his career, but we've seen the other Jamari Traylor, too. Traylor is our third post player, and he's lucky to have that job.

Manning No Answer

As for Evan Manning, right, he could get some PT vs. Lafayette. But other than that, our two best options to assist Mason are Svi and Selden, in that order. Manning has no business on the court in high powered games. We know that. More Self absurdity.

More of Self's quote on Manning: “I meant to play him today,” Self said of Manning. “But when we’re playing well, don’t sub; playing badly you can’t put him in that situation. We’ve got to have a ball-mover back there.”

Ah, a nugget of truth -- we need a ball-mover back there. Who fits that bill? Svi does. Svi appears to have the ability to handle the ball, and he appears to control the ball better than Selden (or certainly equal to Selden). Svi also seems to be one of the best passers/delivers of ball on the team.

Between Selden and Svi, we can cover the Graham minutes. Mason will be playing more, of course. It is the hand we are dealt. It can make us better.

@HighEliteMajor said:

Between Selden and Svi, we can cover the Graham minutes. Mason will be playing more, of course. It is the hand we are dealt. It can make us better.

One thing this does is it can help Self find more minutes in the Oubre/Greene/Svi PT triangle. Even if Self goes strictly with Selden in the back-up PG role (similar to EJ in '12 backing up starting PG Tyshawn) now there are at least a handful more minutes available at the 2. That byproduct is the silver lining that we can take from this. Otherwise, losing Graham hurts. We are not a better team without him.

And I say going strictly with Selden because that is what I feel is most likely. It is the only thing we've both heard him talk about and actually seen. Also, Svi has been losing minutes at his primary positions on the wing. Expecting Self to have confidence in him at a new position that he likely hasn't practiced at as of yet is doubtful. And to me that's the key - what will they practice to cover the Graham minutes? The bulk of practice time will likely see Mason at the point, as per usual. Running a second unit with Selden at the point is likely Self's contingency plan. How much time does that really leave to practice Svi there?

I'd like to see Svi there; I think you're spot on with your analysis of his abilities. But will Self see that as a viable option, and actually take the steps necessary to implement it? Count me as a skeptic.

P.S. As ridiculous as the Jamari PG scenario is, I'd still take it over having Tharpe back there (sorry, someday I'll stop piling on the guy)

@HighEliteMajor We've discussed several times how atrocious Selden can be with his head-down dribbling, leaving his feet & no where to go with the ball, & continual forced shots or awful selection of shots. This really does open the door for SVI at the point. His court vision/awareness is a good as anyone on this team and he is as good an assist man (passer) also. If his decision making regarding traps, picking up the dribble, or dishing off when slashing or finishing is comparable to Wayne, I think he'll be the guy. Frankly Wayne's finishing has been weak as if his hops has disappeared since the knee injury. And as @icthawkfan says above, this potentially opens more minutes for KO & Greene. But no matter how we spin this it's a bad break all the way around. Graham & Frank together defensively were like a couple little pesky heelers running around the bull biting hell outta his ankles. I actually had a Catahoula once & that's what many rodeo stockmen use to herd Brahmas. Completely fearless, quick as a jackrabbit on a date, & the only way to get them off their instinctive target is locking down either them or the livestock. Yeah, CF might have been a serviceable option here, but if Grahams' redshirted this season, that completely changes the dynamics of the journey & makes these difficult wins even more difficult to achieve as if they're not already tough enough.

@jaybate-1.0 Dig it! Nice analogy. Now if our boys can just figure out how to score on L&A's with consistency. They might just make a deep tourney run in March.
Question on Selden. I wonder if his knee injury really did take some of his hops away. In the latest game he did not appear to be wearing a brace of any kind, however two times he has tried to dunk and two times he has failed. Makes one suspect doesnt it?

@HighEliteMajor Absolutely Svi can spell Mason at PG. But, he had an awful game the other day. Being 17, consistency will be an issue until he learns more of Self's methods.

@HighEliteMajor

I posted the following on a different thread but it really shulld go here...

I think you are taking his comments out of context:

The comment about Manning was done before the game and I can see where he can go in for few minute to give Mason some rest, but the way the game was going, when either the team was playing so well ( fist half) that you don't want to disrupt the tempo, or the second half when it became a battle and you cannot throw an unproven player into a game that is becoming very close. Had the game been steadily in the 10 point range, I can see where he could have come in, otherwise Coach Self's explanation is certainly valid, wouldn't you agree?

As far as Jamari playing PG, here is the entire quote by Coach Self:

On sending the ball more often into the post:

"A lot of teams don't play that way. A lot of teams live and die by the jumper, driving it, spreading it; but that's the way we've always played. We've got to do some things to create driving lanes and things like that. We don't have an unbelievable driving team, but Wayne (Selden, Jr.) and Frank (Mason III) should be able to get better. Kelly (Oubre, Jr.) was really good tonight and will be able to help us in that regard. And playing Jamari (Traylor) at the 5, at least he's always going to be quicker than any 5 man he has. I've even thought about making him the backup point guard, I'm being dead serious, if we played him and he initiated the offense, there would be no one that could apply pressure because he could drive around anybody. Not be the point guard that comes up and sets it up, but just bring it in transition and do some things like that. We've got to become more creative because it's going to totally wear Frank down if he has to do everything every possession."

It is clear that he does not want to use him to bring the ball up court but to position him at times to initiate the offense at the half court from where he could draw his man way outside and open the middle and then use his quickness to drive to the basket or be unguarded. At least this is how I read it.

Coach Self often makes off the wall comments that you know he will never implement and are meant just to illustrate something that is possible but but by no means probable. Many people read the comments and say...hmmmm, maybe that could work, and others chose to take the comments out of context and characterize them as..."Absurd," "" it makes him look like an idiot, but I know that he doesn't mean it," " It is patently absurd."

The difference is that Coach Self is the most successful coach ever at KU, the most successful coach in college basketball in the last 10 years, a sure 1st vote future Hall of Fame Member and he sits on the sidelines racking up win after win, even with a young, inexperienced team playing the 4 toughest schedule in college basketball (as per KenPom) and playing 6 out of 9 games away from home ,while the critics sit in front of a computer posting for the 30-40 people that regularly participate in this forum and do not even realize that their comments are more applicable to themselves than to coach Self.

Do I think Coach Self walks on water and never makes mistakes? Absolutely not. But given the choice, he will always have the benefit of the doubt, because he has probably forgotten more about basketball than we will ever know...as Coach Robert Montgomery Knight used to say. Now, if he tries to tell me what to do in my own field of expertise, then I would have a problem with that, but TTBOMK, he has never tried to tell anyone else how to do their own jobs.

As the expression goes...behind every successful executive there is a woman telling him he is doing it all wrong..and it could be extended to college sports or sports in general to say...behind every wildly successful coach there is a group of fans telling him he is doing it all wrong...and results? Are you talking about result? Who cares about results, as long as he is saying what I want to hear or implementing what I think is the best system, who cares about results...

This is not meant to be a personal attack on anyone and there is no malice aforethought intended. This is just my personal opinion but based on messages I get, I know I am not the only one that feels this way. A little civility towards our coach would go a long way.

@Lulufulu

Last summer's work out feeds suggested to me that he had lost some pop.

Now, the verdict now seems in. Selden lost some pop.

He might get it back next season, but for now he is less explosive.

But so did Travis.

So Selden can still be a tremendous player.

He just has to play more of an X-axis game.

Because he is a great athlete, he can do this, where it might end other careers.

He is the cornerstone of this team. The entire team revolves around him even when he is not scoring. It is a weird situation. He is so quiet. And so is Perry. Even Frank has become a quiet guy. Thus the team takes on this quietude as it goes about its business. But the intensity in all three surfaces frequently. They are all tremendously determined persons and so the team takes on that character more than anything else. Perry is learning toughness. Selden is learning to play without explosiveness. Frank is learning to play under control. The more they experience they get the better they will become at being a group of businesslike Marines out to take what needs to be taken without a lot of pomp and circumstances. Defense is everything with this bunch. They still are not sure of how good they can be on defense. Once they discover that, they will become an order of magnitude better team. Their offense will follow along.

As usual, they are one of Self's unique concoctions of unique individuals being melded into a fighting unit quite unlike those that have come before.

Yesterday, there were times where I felt we had some interesting matchups that were confounding to Utah and might be tough for others.. At the very least, there's a pretty dramatic style difference between Mason and Selden running point.

I kind of like the contrast because it seems like it could be tough for the defense to adjust.

The lineup that I thought was most interesting was Selden with tall wings - Greene and Oubre and in the paint was Ellis and Traylor. That's a pretty athletic crew with lots of scoring threats pretty much anywhere on the floor. You can sub Svi with either Oubre or Greene and keep the height and the shooting threat.

I see the mixtures that Self has available as a unique asset.

@jaybate-1.0 I just hope, and this might be selfish of me, but I hope that Selden, Cliff and Oubre come back next season. That order of magnitude will be realized.

@HighEliteMajor Not having Devonte will not make us better. Really, the only combination that made me feel comfortable was when he and Frank were handling the ball and pressuring the perimeter on defense. The inconsistency has been at the wing where no one has stepped up for more than one game. The bigs and the wing will get better as the season goes on, but without Devonte, we just got worse at the guard position.

@wrwlumpy Confidence. It can make us better. It can provide definition to our rotation. It may create more minutes for both Svi and Oubre. I like ball handling. It's of high value to me. But sometimes personnel losses can lead to a clearer identity. Would i rather still have Graham? Sure. But the loss can propel our rotation. Utah was a nice, tidy 8 man rotation with Lucas getting scraps. Confidence.

@HighEliteMajor @wrwlumpy, Kind of like when Rush was out for the first few games of his last season here. Got our bench players to step up to the next level

@HighEliteMajor

Please continue to call them exactly as you wish, and see them.

It appears quite stressful for @JayHawkFanToo for aliases other than his/hers to articulate firm, clear assessments, but I believe that with time @JayHawkFanToo will get stronger and more self-confident and less and less stressed by the free speech and views of others.

And this is not meant to be a personal attack on anyone and there is no malice aforethought intended. I believe I am not the only one that feels this way either. A little, or a lot, of candor towards our coach does go a long way in helping us all appreciate and understand what he does and says, whether we agree with you, or not.

Rock Chalk!

@wrwlumpy

I was a wait and see about Devonte, but he brought something to the perimeter that blended exceptionally well with Frank and Selden. Devonte filled gaps that each player had, and his weaknesses were weaknesses that could be covered up with help. I believe this was why Self said memorably that "we just got a lot better when we signed Devonte," or something like that. Devonte was a perfect puzzle piece for what Self already had, and this was especially the case when Conner was still on the team, for Devonte would have complemented Conner equally well. But when Conner bailed, we didn't get to see that complementarity, only how well he fit with Frank and Selden, and Svi. Frankly, Devonte is one of those rare players that, while he may not be a stunningly good impact player out of the box, he is a stunningly good glue player out of the box. He covered weaknesses of others and had weaknesses that others could cover, and he could make an open look. He was Brady Morningstar down to the slightness of size, but sharply better on the dribble. Like Brady he could play the 1, 2, or 3 and complement anyone else well doing it. But he was much better than Brady at the point. As when Brady had to sit a semester for his reputed DUI, or something approximating one, the team was not nearly as good without him even though Self could just give all of his first semester minutes to Xavier. Guys like Brady and Devonte are worth their weight in gold glue. They are reliable as the day is long. They are calm and calm their teammates in turbulent times. They build bridges among factions on a team. They move smoothly among the factions. This is invaluable. And for a guy like Devonte to be able to do that and at any moment step into the point guard role and create zero fall off in performance made him an extraordinary find. Self will scheme around his absence as he schemed around Brady's absence, but you can bet your bottom dollar that Self is hoping and praying that Devonte comes back this season in 4-5 weeks. And just as surely as Self knew Brady was worth throwing a rouge smoking jacket to, because of how much Self values that complementing ability, Devonte will get the medical red shirt if there is even a slight hint that he is not ready to play this season. Self will not jeopardize what Devonte has. Self has learned the hard way after Brady left that guys like Brady are even harder to come by than OADs. Self has had an OAD, or a TAD, or a 3AD, or two, or three every season since Brady graduated, but he has never found another guy as complementary as Brady with a 40 percent trey. And Devonte could easily be that complementary guy for three more seasons AND drain the 40% trey AND when ever needed be THE point guard.

Hell yes he will be missed.

And take a guess what Svi is working on day and night right now and will be for the rest of the season.

How to handle a ball screen and a back pick by guys bigger and stronger than he his; that's what.

If Svi can get it, then Self can bandaid and weather the loss of Devonte until he gets back.

But Devonte's versatility and trey and ball handling are crucial to this team being able to find a way to win against teams with more inside talent. You've got to have a guy like Devonte that can keep a team together when all hell is breaking loose because the other team is actually better than you are; that much he has already shown he could do.

@jaybate-1.0 Very nice writeup on Devonte, although the comparison to You-Know-Who (not Voldemort this time) may cause HEM's eyes to melt the screen and his fingers to gouge the keyboard.

You helped me understand why, when Devonte was in, he didn't necessarily look all that good but the team did.

@jaybate-1.0

Ok I'm bored. :)

What is free speech?? Is it the right to say what ever you want? If so what if, what that person says is wrong? Should they not be corrected??

Now @JayHawkFanToo did finish his or her comment a bit strong, but the content was quite sound. Just my two cents. ;)

@jaybate-1.0 Devonte will be an amazing leader for our team for years. I think he's really important to this year's team. He is never overmatched, and we need his ball handling skills for teams that will pressure us in the tournament. I'm hoping he's back all the way in January...

@KUSTEVE

I couldn't agree more. Devonte is, is, is, well a stud. The boy can play.

@DoubleDD said:

@KUSTEVE

I couldn't agree more. Devonte is, is, is, well a stud. The boy can play.

I second that!! Let us all send our positive thoughts Devonte's way and hope he heals fast.

@DoubleDD

First free speech is meaningless if you can't say what you want the way you want. And to do that you need your own words, not a pedant telling you which one you can and cannot use. Words are indispensable not just to saying what we mean, but they help us arrive at our thought before we speak them.

It's always okay to disagree, but to deny others their freedom to choose the words they wish to think and speak with is an insidious form of censorship.

Second free speech protects board rats being pedants and telling others how to say what they say, i.e., censoring them.

Third free speech protects me telling someone that they are wasting everyone's time and patience telling others how to say things., i.e, me in effect telling someone to stop censoring someone else.

The above said, it's bad manners telling others how to say what they say. My mother taught me that early on. It implies unwarranted superiority. If you can't understand them ask for clarification. If you disagree dispute the substance. If you think they are being disingenuous and deceptive doubt their intentions and honesty. But give others the curtesy of letting them express themselves in their own words, so they can say what they mean, not what you want them to.

Also, free speech under the first amendment, especially before it was gutted by the Patriot Acts, is the best and cheapest national security we can get to prevent the decline and fall of the republic from within. Tyrannists and pedants hate free speech. And the latter are putty in the hands of the former. Thus free speech relieves us of their combined threat to the republic IMHO.

Free speech is also a muscle. Use it or lose it.

Rock chalk!

@DoubleDD

One more thing: the speech of the pedant telling others how to speak must be protected as free speech. But it also ought to be seen and remarked for what it is.

The beauty of free speech when broadly protected is it self corrects.

@jaybate-1.0

Ah but free speech and opinion are two different things. The right to speak is protected, however an opinion is fair game. ;)

@DoubleDD

Attack the opinion.

Call the writing lousy.

But do not deny a human being his own words to think what he has to think and say what he has to say.

It is like denying a person water while telling them they have the right to drink.

@jaybate-1.0

I am grateful for this brief exchange of ours.

@jaybate-1.0

Who was denying who? Nobody!!! @JayhawkFanToo merely asked for a little respect for HCBS?? Yes I would agree it was a bit strong. However hasn't HCBS earned a little respect? or would your prefer HEM coach the KU basketball team?

what are the chances that Devonte will be a medical red-shirt?

@DoubleDD

Thank you for speaking out. Interesting that the people that profess to support free speech are the least tolerant when others exercise their right to free speech.

In my post I did not even criticize anyone specific, I simply cut and pasted comments made by others...maybe they have problems with their own words.

I came to this forum to have positive discussion about KU basketball and I try to keep my comments objective, constructive and positive and more often than not, I post links to the sources I use. If I wanted acrimonious discussions, I could have stayed at the other forum or joined one the many other boards that often have very caustic threads.

In the past I have expressed my opinion about threads dedicated to bash other programs and coaches, not to prevent any one from posting whatever they want but to remind them that, IMHO, this forum was established to have civil discussions mostly about "KU basketball" and hence the name KUBUCKETS.

For example, although I don't like Calipari and I believe that his approach is hurting the sports, I will often point out that he is generally consider one of the top 5 or 10 coaches in college basketball; same thing with Rick Barnes and Gregg Marshall, I am one of the few that looks also at their success and not just their shortcomings. Like I said, I like to look at the positive; too much negativity in the world to have it in a sports forum too.

I am always amazed by how much criticism Coach Self gets from some members in this forum; you would think that KU is one of the bottom feeders in the conference and scraping by to get a few wins per season and not the 10 times Conference Champion and John Wooden, Bobby Knight and Larry Brown are writing the posts. Earlier this evening I was talking to a friend in the East Coast and big Maryland fan and to whom I had sent a link to this forum. He indicated that he was shocked at the criticism of Coach Self and he said that Maryland and most every other program in the country would take him in a second. He indicated that Maryland had named the basketball court after Gary Williams, a coach who other than winning one National Championship, had fairly pedestrian record, 461–252 (.647) in 22 years where Coach Self is 333–70 (.826) in 11+ years...not even close. He indicate that if they ever had a coach with a record like Self's, they would not 0nly name the court after him but the arena, the campus and the county as well.

Again, we all have the right to write and post whatever we want, within the limits set by the board administrator, and we all also have the right to ignore members that we feel do not make a positive contribution to the discussions at hand. As I said, I have never asked anyone to post or not to post what they want, @jaybate-1.0's comments notwithstanding, I have simply and politely suggested that we keep the threads positive, civilized and focused on KU basketball. Again, we are all free to do as we wish.

@DoubleDD

Try thinking without words..

@jaybate-1.0 You guys are trading underwear?? Are they the Duluth Trading Co brand?

Sorry. That's just stupid - even for me.

@JayHawkFanToo is surprised. 😄

Poor @jaybate 1.0 is not so surprised.

Am I free to wish for more talk about basketball and less about one another?

@ParisHawk I have really noticed that Frank has really stepped up this year. I haven't been mad at him in the last several games, so either he is getting better, or I am getting less cranky. I love the way a confident Frank calmly drains the three when we need it the most. He seems to come back after he makes a bone head play, and more than makes up for it. The game appears to have slowed down for him. It would be great to have a healthy Devonte back in 4 weeks to give him some much needed rest.

That's a real good point there about Frank, Jethro. Do you come up with that while sitting up by the cement pond, or did you think of that while deep in double knot calculations? Maybe Granny's root cellar, perhaps?

@jaybate-1.0

"Self started the season saying Selden would probably play everywhere but 5."

I think Self has made a major mistake when he pulled Selden away (mentally) from his natural 2 position. Wayne has struggled this year, and I think it is because Self threw him into an identity crisis.

Wayne is a big, physical guy, but has proven to be temperamental towards change. Going into this season, I think everyone thought of Wayne becoming the leader of this team. A big part of that was about thoughts of him being consistent. That's changed now, and he is one of our main guys battling consistency issues. He, suddenly, was the guy playing stiff and a bit slower than everyone else. Why? Because that is what guys feeling unsure of themselves do. He's had to play away from his position and try to learn a bunch of other things instead of focus on his duties at the 2. Big, colossal mistake.

The good news may be that it keeps Wayne a Jayhawk another year. He definitely hasn't flown out of the blocks this year and he isn't on the big scope for an early departure (so far).

And now, Self sounds like he is going to compound the loss of Devonte by tormenting Wayne with another identity crisis. Wayne is not a PG. Might as well make BamBam a PG. It is all absurd thinking.

Meanwhile... suddenly Svi has been dismantled and put away on the shelf.... and Evan is promoted? Seriously?

Why doesn't he run Svi at point for some reps? Perhaps because Svi hasn't adjusted enough on defense, but Evan has?

@KUSTEVE

"I haven't been mad at him in the last several games, so either he is getting better, or I am getting less cranky."

I just wish we could get him to stop those drives past under the basket, where he goes airborne out-of-bounds on the baseline then looks for salvation with a pass. I recall having to break TT from that habit.

Frank, in many ways, reminds me of TT in his earlier years... often driving out of control and not being able to finish what he starts. TT learned from the best, John Lucas, on how to finish drives, and it helped take us to National Runner-up his senior year. Frank has to learn that once he blows by his man he has to often back off the gas just a touch, and then take control of how he finishes.

@jaybate-1.0

Now that's trying to block freedom of speech. :)

This thread reminds me of why I left one board and was thinking about giving up on message boards all together. Thanks. Now I can move on and spend more time enjoying life in the real world and not watch pissing contests among anonymous people.

Peace

@drgnslayr

Careful. @JayHawkFanToo may give you a list of words to say more tactfully what you said about Self. :-) @JayHawkFanToo gets really sensey about "absurdity." It appears a red flag word, along with some others. ;-)

Howling!

@DoubleDD

How so?

@Kong

I'll miss your insight, but I can already say this without equivocation.

Enjoy your free time.

Bye.

My firm opinion is that any coach that really thinks that Jamari Traylor should be used to initiate the offense, should see a psychiatrist. Meaning, in need of psycotropic drugs. I would actually question Self's sanity, again, if I felt he really meant it. I don't think he does. We know Self says off the cuff stuff and it never pans out. Sometimes I think he says things simply to be entertained by the reaction.

@drgnslayr -- I think Frank is better than Tyshawn as a sophomore by quite a distance. The only TT that I would even consider having in my lineup would have been the last half of the 2011-12 version.

@HighEliteMajor

Howling!!!!

@JayHawkFanToo (note: not sure if I should include @DoubleDD and so on here, or not?)...

With all due respect, read, don't just look at, what @HighEliteMajor just wrote a few posts above that, I confess, made me howl with some laughter, which he can do when he wants to, though I admit he is rather more serious than me, and so doesn't partake in mirth making as often as me. And while you read understand at the same time that he and I may not see things exactly the same.

Here is my analysis of his post.

Its lucid.

Its reasoned.

Its strong.

Its conditioned.

It assumes Self isn't serious.

It implies, I, jaybate 1.0, or most anyone else, I reckon, must have a hole in the head to think Jamari could be a ball handling combo guard, or that Self would actually play him as such. I rather enjoy that kind of candor. I grew up in a rather blunt family and so it kind of makes me feel supported by a two by four in the forehead, as was the convention of discourse in my beloved family.

But there is more to @HighEliteMajor's post than just a righteous braining of jaybate 1.0.

In un-minced terms it indicates a conviction that Self would need a psychiatrist to administer him psychotropic drugs, if he meant what he said about Bam-Bam playing ball handling guard.

This seems to me as reasonably and acceptably posted as his prior post, but then I am a free speech guy.

If I read your past comments correctly, his post might tread on falling beneath the threshold of sufficient respect that you indicated should apply in remarks about Bill Self, again if I understood you correctly, that his prior post, too, was lacking in respect, or something to that effect.

I am not sure how to advise you here, or if you would want my advice. But as a team player and aware that you appear to have a heap of concern about some particular level of respect being accorded Coach Self, I feel bound to try to glue here.

It seems a pickle to me. I infer you want him to attain a certain level of respect of Self satisfactory to you, but what can he do? I do not recall that you have not posted "@JayHawkFanToo's Standards of Respect in Posting Regarding Bill Self" yet, so, well, he and all of the rest of us kind of have to fly by the seats of our pants and skirts regarding meeting your standards, you know?

Or did you post "@JayHawkFanToo's Standards of Respect in Posting Regarding Bill Self" somewhere and I missed it?

I mean until I and others read these standards, it seems almost impossible to know when we might be in, or out, of compliance with your standards, and whether or not they make a lick of sense. I mean what if your standards included having to post a photoshopped picture of each of us bowing down and kissing Bill Self's hand, when ever we wrote something critical of Coach Self. I can't speak for others on this, but I just don't know if I would agree to observe that standard, you know?

But be that as it may, bear in mind that reading @HighEliteMajor's post might tempt you to be simply polite and itemize tell @HighEliteMajor he/she ought to show more respect in order to achieve sufficient respect for your standard for, you know, his analysis of Bill Self on this issue of Bam-Bam as a ball handler. Some time the issue of ball handling gets plum lost in all of this evaluating proper levels of reeeeeeespect.

I don't want to fly under false colors. I am jest a leeeeeeeetle more optimistic about Bam-Bam's flexibility regarding ball handling as a combo guard, and the probability of it occurring, than @HighEliteMajor appears, but not by a large amount. I sort of see Bam-Bam aka Jam Tray aka Jamari Traylor playing a little 3, when the opposing 3 is a big 3, and Frank and Wayne are at the 1 and 2, and they are able to handle most of the ball handling chores themselves, so Jam Tray could focus on locking down a high scoring, long 3. But I wouldn't be at all surprised, if you and I were nicely to ask @HighEliteMajor about this--without trying to tell @HighEliteMajor that he had to meet (the perhaps eventually to be published?) @JayHawkFanToo's Standards of Respect for Posting about Bill Self--that he might even budge jest a leeeeeeeeeeetle bit on this and say something like, "well, jaybate 1.0 and I have disagreed over this sort of thing forever, and I'm not backing off a micron on my conditioned psychotropic therapy assessment, but, well, yeah, there might be a slim possibility--and I mean cigarette paper thin--that in exactly the right situation, with exactly the right number of people fouled up, and the right guy at the 3 for Bam-Bam to guard, well, Self MIGHT do it, but...I still say we should just put this to rest here and now and say in all probability it is Self just talking to hear himself think," or something like that. Capice?

And by gosh, in any case, I will in advance defend your right to tell him how to write what he means, i.e., I will defend your right to try IMHO futilely to modulate the respect level he shows so that it fits with your apparently unpublished standards of respect for posting about Coach Self, because I believe in defending free speech, even that attempting (or not) to modulate the degree of respectfulness in another's post. But, if you were to post about modulating his diction and tone to achieve your desired level of respect for Coach Self, well, hmmmm, I might once again feel compelled to remark again that it seemed like bad manners, etc., to do so. And I would of course expect you to defend my right to say you were evincing some bad manners, because I believe you too support the virtues of free speech, at the very least, as protected under the first amendment, and perhaps even farther.
I just don't know you that well.

Anyway, what do you think of our chances of sweeping "fayette and Temple?

Rock Chalk!

@HighEliteMajor

You said...

My firm opinion is that any coach that really thinks that Jamari Traylor should be used to initiate the offense, should see a psychiatrist. Meaning, in need of psycotropic drugs. I would actually question Self's sanity, again, if I felt he really meant it.

This is Coach Self's statement on the subject:

"And playing Jamari (Traylor) at the 5, at least he's always going to be quicker than any 5 man he has. I've even thought about making him the backup point guard, I'm being dead serious, if we played him and he initiated the offense, there would be no one that could apply pressure because he could drive around anybody. Not be the point guard that comes up and sets it up, but just bring it in transition and do some things like that. We've got to become more creative because it's going to totally wear Frank down if he has to do everything every possession."

Where exactly does Coach Self says that Traylor "should" be used to initiate offense as you posted? He is simply indicating that it is something they could do to get/manufacture offense/points. He specifically states that he would not the like traditional PG but one that could draw the center out and create space inside for the other players to opearte.

Sam Mellinger ↗ of the KC Star and many others (Google it) get it and this is what he wrote:

Evan Manning will play, for starters, and Self says he's thought of using Traylor sort of like a backup point guard. He first mentioned that in a room full of reporters, and the reaction was such that he had to clarify - "I'm dead serious."

The idea isn't to have Traylor bring the ball up the floor, but rather to help initiate offense away from the basket. He's quicker than any defender likely to guard him, so he wouldn't be pressured, and it would also help clear space for guys like Mason, Selden and Oubre to drive to the basket.

Generating offense from the perimeter is how most college teams have to get by, of course, so this isn't drastic. And at least by appearance and reputation, the Jayhawks have the pieces to make this work.

See, not everybody misrepresents Coach Self to fit his own narrative, like you just did in your post. Many reporters were surprised by the initial commentary but once he explained what he meant, no one seemed to think that Coach Self should see a psychiatrist like you do...and those are the people that make a living by writing about sports.

It is obvious to anyone that reads your posts that you don't like Coach Self or think much of him and constantly write about all the things he is doing wrong and the things he "should" be doing...since you know so much more than he does, of course. You will argue, as you usually do, that this is not the case, but all you have to do is look at your own posts and you will see that every rare occasion when you write something positive about him, it is usually followed by a tirade of negativity; I am not the only one that has called you on this. I don't claim to know much about basketball, it is not my job. I am just a fan that prefers to let the coach do his job...and he does it better than any other coach; as long as he does not tell me how to do my own job, why should I tell him how to do his job? but then, that is just me. :)

It must kill you every time KU gets another win and another conference title and Coach Self record keeps getting better, knowing that you are so much better than he is and know so much more than he does...and yet he makes all the millions, while you write post for the 30-40 people that regularly post in this forum. Maybe this is why you dismiss the conference titles and the amazing accomplishment they represent and state that only a national title will do, even when Coach Self has already won one and there are only 3 active coaches with more than one. His wining record at KU (0.826) is better than any other active coach at any one major school, even better than Calipari at UK (0.815) and all his McD laden teams.

Again, I have not asked anyone to stop posting, @jaybate's assertions notwithstanding, and I do not have any intention to do so now or in the future either; I have simply asked for some civility. You can take it for what is worth or ignore it altogether; it really does not make any difference to me.

You are free to post whatever you want and we are free to see it with a grain of salt, ignore it all together or like @jaybate will likely do, anoint you the next John Wooden, in the same way that @jaybate is free to post the long, long, long ...did I say long? post that is bound to follow. As George Takei would say...

[link text](

@JayHawkFanToo Self obviously referenced Traylor initiating the offense. That has been the discussion. I don't understand your focus on the word "should." That's not the important word there. "Should", "Might", "Could", "Being Considered". It doesn't matter. Self said that he has thought about it, and talked about. Why are you threatened by the discussion? Self specifically said "I've even thought about making him the backup point guard ..." He then qualified it by the initiate the offense thing. All, some, part, or a fraction thereof, is silly.

I note that you don't tell me why it isn't silly.

You can like someone, and criticize them. You can actually love a person, and critique them. You can value a coach, his contributions, and his successes, all while offering constructive criticism of some of his methods and decisions.

It's kind of funny that you cite Mellinger. Really? The guy that writes on every topic? He "writes about sports" so he's your authority. Tell me his qualifications? It is comical in one instance Self is beyond reproach, and in the other you cite Sam Mellinger? Laughable.

Why do you think any of these reporters don't challenge Self? None of them. They don't point out his contradictions. They don't challenge him at all. I wonder why. They want to get treated well, they want access, they want information.

Look at what Mellinger says of Traylor: "He's quicker than any defender likely to guard him, so he wouldn't be pressured, and it would also help clear space for guys like Mason, Selden and Oubre to drive to the basket."

It sounds nice to say that it will clear the lane. But we have a 3 out, 2 in offense, not a 4 out, 1 in offense. If Traylor is on the wing, one of the three normal perimeter guys will necessarily be playing or beginning the offense as the four. It changes nothing. Alternatively, if the three perimeter players are still on the perimeter, we're playing a difference offense -- a 4 out, 1 in.

And if you're defending Traylor, what do you do? You slack off, you stay at appx. 12 feet because his range is at best 15 feet. When he's at 20 feet, you can close out easily as he moves in. Mellinger doesn't know what he's talking about -- this would actually clog the lane. If Traylor is quicker, and can't shoot from outside, wouldn't that also encourage the defender to slack off so he can stop the penetration? Of course. But Mellinger is a tremendous authority.

What's interesting is that Self said, "...there would be no one that could apply pressure because he could drive around anybody." This statement, because it's Self, should go unchallenged? This is the underlying premise of his new found theory?

Does anyone believe that? Let's use KU's roster. Suppose Blue team is Mason, Selden, Greene, Traylor, Ellis. Red team Graham, Svi, Oubre, Alexander, and Lucas.

Traylor is moved to the wing, we sat 3 out, 2 in. Greene is the 4. Do you think that Svi and Cliff could trap and apply pressure? Do you think that Graham and Oubre could jump Traylor if he puts the ball on the floor? Does anyone think that Cliff would even bother to guard him in the open floor, or on a wing?

Now, if you use Ellis, a guy with range, that's a totally different dynamic. Traylor offers no perimeter threat, and thus does not have to be respected outside.

Tell me how Traylor will initiate the offense "away from the basket"? What, pass the ball to Mason? And how does that do anything? How does that "manufacture offense."

And tell me why he "wouldn't be pressured"? As I said above, he wouldn't be pressured if his defender slacked off. If a team wants to get aggressive, perhaps trapping his tail the minute he took a dribble.

I'm not trying to insult you here, though you obviously are taking great effort to insult me. But what's missing is the why.

So try this .. something that might be new to you. Don't just tell me Self is right, tell me why Self is right? Actually, tell me why this will help us "manufacture" points, which is Self's stated goal?

@jaybate-1.0

Your telling my not to speak and only think. I might not be the master swordsman that you are in using the power of the pen or in this case the keyboard. However I'm a no nonsense kind of person and get right to the point without sugarcoating it. :)

HEM made an opinion and so did JayHawkfanToo. So what is the problem?

And, of course, the whole discussion is likely a nullity. Remember when we had a similar issue at kusports.com when Self used Releford and Young at point in practice? We knew that wouldn't happen. He was pushing Tharpe:

“Maybe we should play Rio, but maybe take some pressure off of him (by putting him at 2-guard) and play Travis at the point, something like that,” Self said Thursday at his weekly news conference. “We just haven’t found the one guy that says, ‘Hey, you’re his (Johnson’s) backup.’ We’ve looked at some different things to try to get some guys back there,” Self added, noting Young’s point guard stint only lasted about 10 minutes, despite the fact “he passes it well.”

@HighEliteMajor

You continue to misrepresent what Coach Self says just to prove your point.

First, if you cannot tell the difference between "should" and "could" then the rest of the post will be for naught. Maybe @jaybate-1.0 can write and essay in the difference between these two words; you are more likely to believe him anyway,

Next, you continue to imply that Self would be using Traylor as traditional PG when the obvious meaning is that he would still be playing Center and would be guarded by the opposite center (except with zone defense)

It sounds nice to say that it will clear the lane. But we have a 3 out, 2 in offense, not a 4 out, 1 in offense.

Exactly. This out-of-the -box scheme would in fact turn the 3 out 2 in offense into a 4 out 1 in offense. Traylor could be a the top of the key initiating offense, at this point the opposite center could either stay back or come out to guard him. If he stays back then Traylor has clear path path to either take the short jumper or drive to the basket since Self believes that Traylor is faster than most centers...but then, you seem to think that you know the capabilities of the KU players better than he does. You don't. If the opposite center comes out to guard him way out, it frees up the middle and opens up the lanes for penetration. If they double team him with two guards, he just passes the ball over the top to the open man for an open shot. Will it work? I don't know, could it work? Absolutely.

I am not the only one that sees it this way, I cited Mellinger because he writes for the local paper (KC Star) and is the first one that comes up. Google it and you will find articles with comments like ..."unconventional, but I like it", "It could work..." and so on.

Again, Coach Self did not say that this is an approach he would use for sure, but something that he would consider as way of manufacturing points. This is a transcript from his press conference after the Utah game...

"I don't think that was a huge factor in us not playing in the second half. It's going to be a factor moving forward because our team is different than any other team we've had since I've been here, ==>we don't throw it to the post and score.<== We're not very big, and our two biggest guys have a hard time in there, they haven't developed that yet so we've got to find different ways to manufacture points. We're not doing it off our defense and we're not doing it in transition. Now the guy (Frank Mason III) that can really create for you in transition has to play 36 minutes a game. So it's going to be a situation where we've got to kind of redefine who we are. We won some games playing the way we have, which is fine, but the next three weeks we've really got to do some things to get better for conference play."

It is very apparent that he is aware that KU does not have the inside game that he had on previous teams and thus he cannot use his system like he has in the past since it relies on a strong inside game that, again, this team just does not have. He is obviously trying to figure out what else he can do and a little outside the box thinking could be good. Funny that you always criticized Coach Self because he was inflexible and now that he is being flexible, has abandoned the inside out game and is thinking outside the box, you criticize him even more. There is just no pleasing you.

You should really check out this site... ↗

@DoubleDD

Hey, the last thing I meant to tell you to do was not to speak freely.

I was just trying to write to you about how hard it is for anyone to think without using their own words as containers for their own thoughts. Thoughts take shape through words at least to some degree.

To answer your question as best I can...

@HighEliteMajor was apparently writing about Self's coaching.

@JayHawkFanToo was apparently writing about @HighEliteMajor.

Do you see the logical disconnect in subject matter?

@HighEliteMajor

" I think Frank is better than Tyshawn as a sophomore by quite a distance. The only TT that I would even consider having in my lineup would have been the last half of the 2011-12 version."

I totally agree. Frank is already better than TT was at the same time period in his Jayhawk career. But I would love to have TT for another senior year! He was like night and day once he was coached on how to finish his drives.

@drgnslayr Absolutely. Frank is better now than TT was as a sophomore. No question. I hope that Frank stays around for 4 years like TT and that we can all talk about how great he was as a senior. TT's senior year was a really great performance and when I think back on his career I will always think about how he helped up get to the National Title with a team that was very short handed. To me it made up for 3 years of him passing the ball into the stands.

@JayHawkFanToo

"This is Coach Self's statement on the subject:

"And playing Jamari (Traylor) at the 5, at least he's always going to be quicker than any 5 man he has. I've even thought about making him the backup point guard, I'm being dead serious, if we played him and he initiated the offense, there would be no one that could apply pressure because he could drive around anybody. Not be the point guard that comes up and sets it up, but just bring it in transition and do some things like that. We've got to become more creative because it's going to totally wear Frank down if he has to do everything every possession."

Where exactly does Coach Self says that Traylor "should" be used to initiate offense as you posted? He is simply indicating that it is something they could do to get/manufacture offense/points. He specifically states that he would not the like traditional PG but one that could draw the center out and create space inside for the other players to opearte."

I think Self sometimes just likes to throw red meat out to the bloggers. Gives them things to spin about. And look... it has definitely spun around us all in here! And while we are spinning, we are missing focus away from our real offensive issues... which are:

1. We don't have a guy or guys that can really play alpha-dog basketball... that can take their man to the hole and score or get fouled.

2. We live and die with Self's concept of "team offense" which is great theory to go for, but at some point reality should force you to make someone take charge.

Coaches that teach heavy "team offense" never end up with a real alpha-dog leader. All those attributes are drawn out of players when learning "team offense." Players like Jordan didn't really accelerate until reaching the NBA, where coaches just want to win, and don't play so rigid and philosophical basketball. Jordan was pinned down by Dean Smith. He had to be a team player to the extent of giving up his game for the "good of the team."

What we all experienced after that was a different Jordan. A guy who was "set free" to dominate the game. After he started dominating, he became a much better team player because he was so effective, and he would draw double and triple teams... then Jordan would toss more assists. In the NBA, you put your best foot forward, and by any stretch, on any team, a young Jordan was the best foot. Once that is accomplished, you learn to spin off of that (Jordan assists).

Self doesn't teach alpha-dog skills... instead... he leashes them. Brannen Greene is a fine example. He's a guy that basically got screwed out of having a decent freshman year because they sidelined him so much he couldn't shake the rust. He got the hook for taking about any shot with more than 10 seconds left on the shot clock. He got screamed at as he took a seat, never to return to a game. That, my friend, is leashing. That, was removing all his alpha-dog.

And the reason why we crap out in March? Because March is the spotlight for alpha-dogs... the guys we leashed all season long. In March, you are going to get tested, and at some point your "team offense" is going to crap out. That's when you need an alpha-dog (or two) to carry the load.

We can continue to spin around Bam-Bam running point, which is absurd, because no big man will come out to the top of key to guard him because Bam-Bam can't hit a trey. Or... we can talk about the real issues with our offense, like Wayne's inconsistency, our sudden shortage of PGs, shortage of bigs, etc.

And how about, over Christmas, our offense works on creating points for all that talent we do have? We have a bunch of fire power if we just, finally, spend the focus, time and energy on an offense that will generate the best results for all that talent. It's time to throw basketball philosophy out the window and just do what works for the guys we have. Unleash the talent and build an offense to exploit it. Self should quit trying to smash a square peg in a round hole. It is going to take at least a year before Cliff can learn to score effectively with his back to the basket, and Perry will always have some limitations with that, too. Hi/lo should be left on the playground with the tettertotters.

..

@jaybate-1.0

To a point. :) It's ok Jaybate., as I said I was bored when I started this banter with you.. Thanks for sparing with me. ;)

I need the practice. LOL

@jaybate-1.0

To answer your question as best I can...

@HighEliteMajor was apparently writing about Self's coaching.

@JayHawkFanToo was apparently writing about @HighEliteMajor.

Do you see the logical disconnect in subject matter?

So...when @HighEliteMajor posts a comment, he is talking about Self's "coaching" but when I post a comment I am not talking about @HighEliteMajor's comment but about him personally?

Do you see the hypocrisy? Do you see the bias? Do you see the "logical disconnect"?...sadly, you probably don't

I don't know @HighEliteMajor from Adam. For all I know he could be my grandson Gym teacher, or the guy that sat at the bar next to me at Twin Peaks a couple of nights ago and visited about KU basketball, or the neighbor a couple of doors down from me that puts up a KU flag every time the Jayhawks play...that guy does have a "Self for President" bumper sticker so, he either likes him a lot and really wants him to become president so he can take over as KU coach; I will put him down as a definite maybe. The point is that my comments are not personal and simply address the difference of opinion we have.

If we all though the exact same way this would be the most boring forum in the web...

Post 1 - I really like Self,

Post 2 - Me too

Post 3 - Ditto.

Post 4 - Agreed.

See what I am driving at? We all have different opinions and we all comment on issues we agree and more importantly on issues we don't agree; This is what a sports forum is for, impersonal exchange of ideas. @drgnslayr and I often disagree on issues and I don't have a problem with his opinions and I don't believe he has a problem with mine either, and after stating our views, sometimes we just agree to politely disagree...nothing wrong with this; this is what the forum is for

You, on the other hand, constantly personalize your statements and make it a point to demean those who don't agree with you. For example, you constantly refers to me as "he /she" knowing full well that I am a male, since on many occasions I have provided personal information including that I have wife, children, grandchildren, live in Olathe. am an engineer, schools I have attended and so on...just like most other members do from time to time, that is provide some information to somewhat personalize the interchange with other members. I am not sure if the Viagra is not kicking in and you have the "need" to feel more manly by making that type characterization or just senile and just don't remember; either way it only makes you look petty and silly. I only post as @JayHawkFanToo, which by the way I have explained its origin before; @approxinfinity, the board owner/administrator has my name, address, phone number, e-mail and the name of my business, as we have corresponded before and he can attest to the veracity of my statement.

In any case, it is nice that you stand by your man @HighEliteMajor; Tammy Wynette would be proud of you.

No malice involved...well, maybe just a little.

@HighEliteMajor, @JayHawkFanToo, @Jaybate this is what happens when the KU basketball team goes a whole week with out a game. :) Like a bunch of pit bulls trying to fight each other. LOL

You guys should drop this and come over to the topic I started. "Be Honest" and tell me how your really feel about this years KU team. ;)

@DoubleDD

Spot on...however it might go longer since the Lafayette game is blacked out. I still hate Zenger's incompetence.

@JayHawkFanToo

I love ya, pal, but I'm just not going there with ya.

Merry Christmas.

@JayHawkFanToo

I love ya pal, but I'm just not going there with ya.

Happy Holidays.

@DoubleDD

Nope.

Ain't gonna be nobody's pitibull. :-) :-(

I am a gentle, happy board rat.

You can call me that, of course.

But ain't gonna get lumped in with @JayHawkFanToo.

And if you ask me to call you a pit bull and lump you in with @JayHawkFanToo, I will try to talk you out of it

I love you, pal, but I am not going there with you either.

Rock Chalk!

P.S.: And I can only speculate, but I doubt @HighEliteMajor will want to go there either. ;-)

Locking this thread [I think] for everyone's benefit so we can move our blown minds on from thinking about Jamari playing point.

Please see /topic/1636.

Thanks guys.