🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Figured I'd get the ball rolling and try and look to the next game we have. I know many of us (myself) included have vented enough about Saturday's disappointing loss. The biggest downer for me wasn't that we lost as much as how we lost that just totally got me going.

Interested to see how people feel this game will go after 2 days to digest what happened.

In perspective we hold a 1 game lead on everyone, tonight there are 2 more big games to be played. First up is Baylor at home against OSU. Winner is either 7-5 or 7-4 in conference which is still "hanging" around at this point.

The 2nd game is very important to KU because ISU goes to Norman. ISU winning would keep them 1 game behind going into Tuesday's KU game. A loss would leave everyone with 4 conference losses and the chance for KU to get 2 games up again. A win for Oklahoma is huge as well because their next 4 games got a bit easier with KSU down 2 players, Texas in a huge struggle then back to back TCU & T-Tech. It's not a stretch to think OU could rattle off 5 games in a row and really turn up the heat on KU.

So to me Tuesday's game just got that much more important. We have to win, we have to win like a good team, like KU should. We have to take care of business on the road so that we keep this 2 game cushion that is crucial to winning the league.

The question I ask is will we? Will the 2nd half meltdown we had carry over into Tuesday or will Self find a way to rally the troops? I'm really hoping that it was just a bad half in a place we have played pretty poorly over the years. I do want to remind hawk fans that we played pretty poorly in Lubbock last year and needed a last second layup by Wiggins to win. Texas Tech's team last year was much better equipped to pull the upset, but at this point KU has played it's poorest ball on the road that every game away from Allen looks scary.

I'm thinking that it will be a tight game early, maybe even 5-6 points at halftime. Maybe even close into the 2nd half and that KU will pull out an 8-12 point win. Unless this team truly has hit the wall, I just can't see us losing. Tech has won its last 2 games at home against ISU & KSU but I just can't think in any way that we could lose if we don't have a TCU type performance. I would like to predict we run them out of the gym on their own floor but we've all seen how we do with leads this year and how quickly they fall apart that it's hard to predict any kind of blowout win.

What does everyone think? Rebound game blowout? Rebound game loss? Rebound game struggle for the win?

We lost Saturday? I'd forgotten! :0

@BeddieKU23 I notice a lot of fans, in all sports, say something similar to "it wasn't that we lost as much as how we lost" when voicing their disappointment. I'm sure I've done the same thing. I'm genuinely curious though, what KU losses have been easy to accept? How many times have we thought "well, we gave it our best shot" and were not extremely bitter. Go back years and try to think of how many losses haven't gnawed away at you.

For me, there's only one and that's the 2012 championship game against UK. It did still gnaw at me, because it was UK & Calipari and because winning would have meant another NC, but I didn't come away from that game second guessing Self or the players. I wasn't questioning the effort or decisions. I didn't feel like we got jobbed by the refs. Despite the obvious disappointment of losing, I could do nothing but applaud the team.

That's the only time in recent memory.

Just something that immediately got me thinking while reading your post.

@icthawkfan316 "it wasn't that we lost as much as how we lost" when voicing their disappointment. I'm sure I've done the same thing. I'm genuinely curious though, what KU losses have been easy to accept? How many times have we thought "well, we gave it our best shot" and were not extremely bitter."

I was originally going to respond to @BeddieKU23 , but then I glanced at your post and thought I'd respond to it instead. Like you, I don't care to get beat any time, but it IS a tiny bit easier for me to stomach if it was a hard fought game and I felt like we gave it our all.

The OSU fiasco was a disgrace, as far as I'm concerned. We had a fourteen point lead, the less than capacity crowd was completely out of the game and we had it in the bag. Eleven point lead at halftime. Then they just quit playing.

Not fun.

@icthawkfan316 Agree about that KU-UK Championship game. The team was so short-handed that year, and Coach Self did such a great job. I was ecstatic when they made the Final Four, and not TOO down after the championship game.

@icthawkfan316

I like the response, and yes you are right about accepting losses . We as KU fans are so spoiled by the wins that we get so down when we finally slip up. And usually when we slip up, we lose in a bad way that leaves a sting. 2012 was a great example, I wasn't mad at all that we lost. To think the run they had of close games and getting to the finals was as thrilling as winning it all for me.

Out of our 4 losses this year Iowa St was the easiest for me to accept knowing that we were playing in a hostile crowd, we didn't play well for large parts of the game yet we fought back and clawed for a 5 point loss. There were many parts of that game that you could be disgusted with but at least we didn't give up.

The Oklahoma St. game you just got this sense that they really did give up for about a 10 minute stretch. Even the last 5 minutes was just mistake after mistake that even a few bounces our way would have eeked out a win. The way they lost in my mind was just terrible.

Now can we move on as fans and as a team to get back to winning ways!

@nuleafjhawk @BeddieKU23 I agree about the OSU game. It's always tough to stomach a loss when we know we should have won.

But Temple, UK, ISU...were any of those easy to digest? We can explain away some of the UK game - they had more time to practice, we were so young, they have 9 McD all-Americans, etc. But no matter what excuses, a 32-point beat down will never sit well with fans.

The Temple game was worse. A 25-point drubbing to such an inferior opponent. No one can argue that Temple has more talent. Even granting that they are a decent team and it was a home game for them, I can't get from there to being OK with the blowout.

ISU? Definitely the easiest to live with, especially as more time elapses. Probably the second best team in the conference, playing at home in what is easily the second toughest home court advantage in the conference. Ranked #11 at the time, and we lose by 5. Doesn't sound so bad. But remember the run-outs? How we gave them so many easy buckets in transition? Perry with the 2 early fouls sitting so much of the first half? And even with Perry's minutes limited Cliff only seeing 14 minutes of game action? Greene only playing 5 minutes? Self not pressuring them earlier? There were multiple threads devoted to the disgust of that loss. Tell me that doesn't stick in your craw!

Like you say Beddie, we are spoiled, and the losses definitely sting.

@icthawkfan316

I was pretty much in shock after Kentucky, and as the season goes on, that bothers me less and less. I hate to say it, but UK is far superior to any other team out there. They may not go undefeated, may not win it all, but all in all they're the best team in college basketball right now.

The Temple loss SUCKED. Sucked, sucked, sucked, sucked, sucked. And then it sucked some more. :lollipop:

The ISU loss was not enjoyable, but bearable. We lost a close, hard fought game to a good team.

The Okie State game - :facepunch: to the groin.

@icthawkfan316

You hit the head on all them. I'm the type of fan that takes losses very hard, I spent the rest of Saturday is a "I don't give a" mood because games like Saturday are so far from the true ability of this team that is hard to accept actually seeing it happen. Yesterday I had forgiven them because it wasn't the end of the season and there's still plenty of time to make things right.

Kentucky was a bad game, I lived with it because we knew UK could be a special team.

Temple was horrid, never thought we would pack it in for X-mas break like that but the writing was on the wall.

ISU, yes even myself was totally pissed about how we lost. You forget the terrible ref's in that game, how do we go 30 minutes without a FT attempt. I hate to blame ref's but they do have some part in how games go.

I hope our players understand the importance of bouncing back Tuesday. No matter the opponent, we need to go in their gym and play our game. That has been lacking in every road we have played except Texas. We cannot play down to Texas Tech's level. We need a confidence boost so that our remaining 3 road games we have something we can build on.

@icthawkfan316

I'm on board with your post. The UK loss was tough because it was Calipari. But our guys performed admirably and we didn't have a single McDs AA in that game. UK sent a record... what.... 6 guys in the NBA draft that summer? The following year for Calipari tanking in the NIT taught him a lesson about losing so many guys in one year.

The OSU game really got under my skin. I think we are all a bit defensive this year because we know just how young this team is. We know we lack the big shot blocker and rebound sweeper. We all so wanted that 2 game buffer against a dangerous ISU team.

So the extra buffer is gone. And we still have many tough road games ahead. The last thing any of us wanted to experience was a melt down. OSU second half was a complete meltdown. In that opening OSU run... I recall at one point we had 4 consecutive TOs on our possessions. We didn't even get up a shot. And they were all really dumb TOs, like throwing the ball directly to a Sooner or dribbling high right up to a Sooner.

What I came to learn from that game is this team doesn't have a leader. Games back we turned to Frank... but he was just a late-game finisher (who is now struggling). That reminds me of Sherron towards the end. When he tried to carry the team on his back, but couldn't. This isn't a game for one guy to do it all. And that isn't what leadership is all about anyways.

What does it take to lead? It takes someone who is a communicator and someone who the team will listen to. Someone the team respects and believes can lead them to victory. Someone who has enough alpha-dog to take charge.

Who can lead us?

Obviously, the first place to look is our elder players. That would be Perry and BamBam. Neither of these guys seem to be verbal, take charge guys.

Then we have the sophomores... Frank, Wayne and Brannen. Frank is sitting in the driver's seat. Brannen is more the spiritual leader... when he hits his 3s, the team responds, but that isn't enough. The last thing we want to do is ask anything more from Wayne. He is just recovering from his slump. Let him be and let him continue to work on Wayne.

Would we even consider having a freshman lead us? Doubtful. They've never been where we are going. From what experience could they bring to the table? However... once in a while there comes someone special who can lead without experience. Could it be Devonte, Kelly or Cliff? I'm not seeing it.

That leaves Frank Mason. He is our only choice. He's the guy who refuses to step backwards in the military lineup when asked to do a suicide mission. Frank is our man.

The team should hold a meeting today, without Self and coaches. They should all work it out together. This is the time for them to use the great bond they have... and they need to elect Frank Mason as the man. And they need to communicate to Frank that he needs to be more vocal, more expressive. We need every bit of his alpha-dog moving forward.

I fear tomorrow. I fear if this team didn't fully grasp the poor level of play on Saturday they are going to walk into a buzz saw on Tuesday and totally jeopardize #11. If they do that the pressure will be on to win out... and young teams don't usually handle that kind of pressure well.

@drgnslayr

Frank is our leader, we have to hope he can keep the team together. The problem is we don't show up on the road. We need to figure out how to bring it on the road. Frank needs to take this team and huddle them and threaten their momma's to get them fired up.

So far Self has been pretty ineffective on how to get these guys to bring 40 minute effort on the road. We can go 2-2 on the road the rest of the year as long as we are 4-0 at home. This is not a big what if situation, unlike the rest of the league that basically needs to win out to stay in the hunt for the Conference Title. a 8-2 mark is nothing to be ashamed of, 9-1 would have looked much sweeter but those are the cards we are dealt. Tuesday can't be a letdown game because if it is, "the world might actually be falling apart" around here after.

@BeddieKU23 I had a similar response to the KU-UK game in 2012. Living near New Orleans allowed me to attend that game. It was my first KU game since '88. I was tickled to be there. I was thrilled to be attending a national championship game. I also, inside my mind, didn't think we had too much of a chance.

It was a blast being there. My wife went, it was her first KU game ever. I even congratulated some Kentucky fans. (I also wanted to accidentally push down the steep upper deck the uk kids in front of me who stood the whole game and told me I can just watch the game on the big screen) So it was one of the rare losses where at the end I wasn't really too upset.

But I will say this. I rarely go into a KU game thinking we have no chance. Last year was the first year, I think that I hadn't written KU's name down on the champions line on my bracket in March. I expect us to win each and every time out. I think most of you do too. It's not arrogance. It's intelligence. We're better almost every time and we know it!

@BeddieKU23

"Frank is our leader"

Frank is our leader because all other players on this team took a step back and left Frank in front.

Frank is a bulldog that just doesn't quit. He needs to take charge more and be vocal and huddle the guys. That's what team leaders do. Coming out flat in a half is more the responsibility of the team leader instead of the coach. The leader is on the floor, as things are happening. He needs to communicate, even more when on the road. Control the game. Control the tempo. Settle his guys down. Show who is boss!

I don't think this team has had that conversation yet... where they all share their feelings and get behind one guy to lead. This really makes a big difference. This is part of what past Jayhawks teams have done where they really go into overdrive late in the season.

We aren't maximizing our talent and potential. We are leaving big chunks of our game in the locker room. We are missing on one or two cylinders. IMHO, this is a leadership issue. I'm not blasting Frank for this. It isn't his fault. This is a communication issue with the team and they need to formalize the structure.

I have all the faith that Frank can become a real leader. He better do it now, because next year Devonte is wanting his job! That kid is dying to lead! I see it in his DNA... and there aren't many guys like him in college basketball. I see Devonte leading us to a National Championship someday!

I agree with all of you, It is difficult for me to come back on this site after a loss and read all of the Jack Harry type comments about the ineptitude of the young people that play and represent the thousands of KU fans around the world. While I was watching the game Saturday, I saw that Cliff had the ball at the top of the key like every other big guy in the last twelve years has done to start a play. As Brannen was coming up from the baseline, he was covered like a wet rag on defense. I was actually able to get the word out before he did it. "NO" yet as a Freshman, he threw it anyway.
Yes, like a lot of us on this site, we love basketball because we played it in High School and for many of us, in College. We've all made a dumb play. But Dumb plays are suppose to decrease as the year goes on. I'm defending Cliff, but I can see the detriment of having him on the court if you haven't built up any trust. Brannen is playing more because he is a great shooter, but he would still not be on the court if his defense and decision making had not improved. I'm as dogged as all of you are after a loss, but these young "Rock Stars" are still kids that want to do the right thing. I noticed the vitriolic musing of of KULA and others waited 3 or 4 hours after the game to chime in on the stupidity of Coach Self, but let's remember that the team that Played Kentucky was the oldest most experienced team we've ever had on the floor with 4 fifth year seniors. We lost ten games last year with the ROY of the NBA. We have a great record and are ranked in the top ten. Everyone, count to ten and take a deep breath before your Jack Harry side comes out.

@wrwlumpy

You make some good points. This is a very young team and we've all seen the times when they play like it. It's also just as easy to praise the team when we play well, as it is to bash and pick at them when they play bad. I think with every game whether its a W or L, we experience the high's of each games outcome.

With every bad game, we've pretty much corrected the bad with the next game. Texas Tech gives us that challenge to respond from a loss. We won't know if they will until they lace em up. If it was a home game, I'd say no brainer Allen Fieldhouse will get these kids rocking, but because we are going to lowly Lubbock it could be the atmosphere that keeps us in the low.

In regards to Cliff I would side more with starting him and playing him then sitting him. The benching he got in Iowa St. seemed to work for a short time. He hasn't done much since that initial burst in his game. I thought he played extremely well 1st half Saturday, and fell into the same coma the team did 2nd half. For me I'd rather have him out there because offensively he gives us so much more. Traylor has not rebounded the ball worth a lick this year. Last year he was a pretty good offensive rebounder but I've seen little of him crashing the boards and getting putbacks. And Why is he allowed to shoot jump shots? For our starting PF/C to have 40 FT's tells you how non aggressive he is at drawing fouls. Newell's stats he posted don't tell the whole story but we seem to be losing more points than not with Cliff on the bench.

Whatever the reason Self is doing this, is his decision and I'll respect it. From a talent standpoint I think its not even close that we need Cliff out there. Traylor has gotten a big leash because he's trusted and a 4th year player. I get it, Self roles with his upperclassmen but at some point like Saturday 6 turnovers from Traylor is what's going to cost you if you don't find a balance.

I agree that Frank is probably our guy. But it seems like Self is trying to prod the team towards Jamari. What else would explain the crazy stats Jesse posted comparing he and Cliff? Isn't about this time of year when the 08 team looked like a mess? Lost on the road, maybe 2 in a row? or 2 of 3? There was a much talked about players only meeting that righted the ship.

Do these hawks have that in them? Who calls the meeting? Who speaks up? Frank might just be too tired! Come on, Jamari! Be the man! You don't have to score or rebound to be the leader. Stats can't determine who will speak up and take charge. Be what you were for this team in Austin! Do it because it needs to be done!

Frank just finally slumped. Nobody gets through without a slump. Remember Tyshawns that started in the conference tournament and carried through March, even though he had been unstoppable all season? Frank has slid into his slump. It will go on a few more games. The good news is he will be coming out of it in March. The real problem is that Devonte is entering his at the same time. This is why I said Selden and Perry have to steady and save us now.

The TTECH game should see Cliff play more, and I suspect Svi will get thawed for a look to replace Frank and Devonte's slumping trifectation. Lots of Trey balling as Tubby Ball focuses on closing driving/passing lanes to basket and gives the Trey.

What we have to fear is Brannen's slump.

It's coming sometime.

@jaybate-1.0 No doubt on Greene! Surely he can't continue his pace in conference play. Can he? Is his stroke slump proof? Is he such a wild hare that he either doesn't understand the law of averages or simply thinks it doesn't apply to him?

My hope is that the misses come but on more difficult attempts. We have already started to see more confident shots from him. But with that I think the open ones still go down. I just don't see him going 1-7 or 0-5. I might be crushing a bit though. Man that stroke is pretty!

@drgnslayr Good post, but just like the initial post on this thread one thing caught my eye that I want to delve deeper into. You said "The last thing we want to do is ask anything more from Wayne. He is just recovering from his slump. Let him be and let him continue to work on Wayne."

You said he's recovering. A day or two ago HEM said he was trending up. I disagree. No doubt he's found his outside stroke. That's a big deal; I don't want to discount that at all. But is it enough to consider him as trending up, or to be recovering from a slump? Is he even in a slump, or is this who he is now? He doesn't rebound the ball. He is deficient handling the ball. He can't find offense inside the arc. And his defense is inconsistent. Is ANY part of his game what we thought it would be? A top 10, McD's all-American out of high school, and when his outside shot is falling he's maybe on the same level as Brannen Greene. Perhaps it is shocking to make that comparison, but when looking at it objectively - Brannen is a better ball handler, a better rebounder (averaging almost twice the rebounds per minute as Selden), he actually averages more points per minute than Wayne. Selden still probably has him on defense, but not by as much as we might initially think, and he is the better passer. It's actually pretty remarkable considering how little PT Brannen has gotten in spurts, that he's on par with this 2-year starter who has gotten 30 mpg from the get-go.

I'm not saying this to bag on Wayne. I feel bad for him. For whatever reason he's not the player we thought he'd be. Could very well be injuries. His lack of springs is evident. Could also be in part a hangover from last year. Initially he was the crown jewel of the recruiting class. Then Embiid starts coming on, and Wiggins signs, and suddenly he's the 4th option behind those two and Perry. I just wonder if psychologically he's never gotten over the expectations to be "the man" of the freshman class to being almost the forgotten man of last year's team.

Anyway, that's kind of my "state of Wayne" address. I just don't buy that his recent outside shooting signals an uptick in his overall game. Could be, as coach Self would say, fool's gold. Masking the glaring deficiencies that have plagued him most of the year.

So the other part of that quote was the "ask anything more" part. You spend a great deal of the remainder of your post making the case for Frank to step up, asking more of him. I don't disagree that Frank needs to be, and really already is, the team leader. But if anybody needs to have the pressure eased up on him, it's Frank. The chinks in the armor are starting to show. How much more of the burden of this team's success can possibly be piled on his shoulders before he breaks?

A team meeting would be a good thing at this point. But rather than saying "Frank, we're counting on you to lead us" I would much rather the other key members of this team be held accountable for stepping back. It's up to all of them to hold each other accountable for this and make sure it doesn't continue to happen.

@icthawkfan316

I've read your post a couple of times now.... and it still makes a lot more sense than my comments on Wayne!

I based my Wayne comments on a couple of premises. First... that no matter what, Self is going to start Wayne. It is part of that thing I mentioned about Self being equal teacher to coach. Starting Wayne is his lesson that defense decides minutes. Except... Wayne hasn't been holding his end up on defense any more than Brannen does. And Brannen has started getting more rebounds, something we severely need. Second... I've had it in my head that Wayne thinks too much while playing, similar to what EJ did. I thought it really hurt Wayne this year when Self talked about playing him in every position except the 5. I've been thinking that Wayne (more than any other player) needs to feel security by knowing exactly what his role needs to be, and in simple terms. I've sort of let myself get drawn into this, and since I felt like Self is going to play him big minutes no matter what, I became an enabler in Wayne's weakness.

Your outlook on him is more realistic to identifying Wayne properly and what we need to do going forward.

In a way, my twist on it shows how off a team can get because of just one player. Wayne can't be given any free passes and must be held accountable just like everyone else.

You really won me over with this:

"A team meeting would be a good thing at this point. But rather than saying "Frank, we're counting on you to lead us" I would much rather the other key members of this team be held accountable for stepping back. It's up to all of them to hold each other accountable for this and make sure it doesn't continue to happen."

I totally agree with your statement here. It can't all be dropped on Frank's lap. Yes, Frank needs to do his share, but so does everyone else.

So I'll add to this..... and the team needs to throw Frank the keys along with giving Frank the right (and need) to hold all of them accountable, including Wayne, and of course, Perry! In fact, all of these guys need to stay on each other... keeping the energy high along with the accountability!

Getting back to the lead post, asking for comments re tomorrow night's game at Tech. I can see the team rebounding well from the loss, but am concerned about Bill's game plan. No surprise that he insists on playing the inside-out offense, often at times that are detrimental to his squad's chances for a win. I envision his commanding his troops to Belly Up!, try to perfect the offense which has carried former Jayhawks to such high percentage in the win columns. For certain, he will not expose any major adjustments if his troops are able to build a huge lead. Gotta save that stuff for the bone crunchers. I hear myself saying that we will defeat Tech w/o undue stress. Would be interesting to see something of a non-plan, allowing his 8 or 9 players to flow as they might best....

I also think we come back after this loss with a nice win in Lubbock. And big picture I still don't see us losing more than 2 more games in the league. Our schedule is really favorable to those of the other contenders. I see at least 5 losses total for ISU and OU. Probably more like 6 for WVU. I just don't see us sharing this year. The league is too tough for someone else to win games on the road.

@benshawks08

Great take. He has a fine shot. Comparable to Ben Mac's, plus his height makes him even more able to get it off. But if Jerry West could have an off night from 20-30 feet out, so can Brannen. Its going to hit. It is just a matter of when. The only possibility it won't is if we argue that his early shooting sucked, which it did briefly. Otherwise, the young man has to slump. It is part of the yin and yang of basketball.

Seems as if we have a pretty good team.

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Considering the schedule KU has played, they are doing very well.

I am on the record as saying the 14-4 would likely win the conference and It is still probably true.

Honestly...and I mean honestly and not using hindsight...how many of us thought, after the UK game, that KU would be 19-4 overall and 8-2 in conference? If I recall the posts after that game I would say...not a single one of us thought that KU would be where it is...so...we should quit being spoiled fans and enjoy what we have...think about it, you could be MU fan...AAAGGGHHHH!!!!

@BeddieKU23 Man, Im just going for A win at this point, don't much care how we get it. You're right, we need this W to keep a 2 game lead.

@jaybate-1.0 Brannen's slump. Now thats a good point. Sure, it may come at some point. But, how low will it get? Dude can't miss right now, from the line or from trey. I hope he keeps it going. I want him to be the best shooter in KU history.

@Lulufulu BG had his slump 2nd half of osu game, slump over!

This team reminds me a little of the 2012-2013 that would look prolific and smooth and slump badly for a lot of the game. Remember, that team dropped 3 in a row and labored before that after a big win over KSU. I expect us to labor again tomorrow, come out with an ugly win 62-52. The only question is how much will it hurt us before we stop the bleeding? We will snap out of it. Self will have this team playing hard and running smoothly the last couple games of the league. That I have no doubt in.

@JayHawkFanToo

Not me.

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@FarSideHawk I hope he comes out that fired up!

@benshawks08 I just don't see a Bill Self team blowing a 2 game lead in the final 4 weeks-at least I've never seen it before. Though a tie would mean a share, I'd much rather get it outright. OU & WVU road games maynot go the way we like, but the main thing is winning the ones we SHOULD & not falling into a flippin trap game like KSU or TT. These are the ones that can bite the butt-hard. Tubby's a PDG coach & will have his men ready for The Champs. Some teams play like chumps on the road & Self has to be the Enforcer & make certain his guys aren't one of them.

@globaljaybird

"...the main thing is winning the ones we SHOULD & not falling into a flippin trap game like KSU or TT."

Did you say "flippin trap game?"

I've been terrified for this game ever since the second half of OSU. It just has the feel like we are ready for a 3-game meltdown...

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@Crimsonorblue22 I hope so too. He is due for a big game.

@FarSideHawk maybe, maybe he was still recovering from his sickness.