Great game by Perry, and no offense to him, but if Bill thinks a great game from the low post against the worst team in the league is going to translate into justification of his offensive philosophy against NCAA tournament teams--well, talk about Fool's Gold...
How'd that work out for you against Kentucky? Does anyone here think a 9 point win at home (at Allen Field House!!!???) against TCU??? is something to hang your hat on?
@nuleafjhawk The key difference is WE are fans of KU. Every post he makes is negative - I haven't seen a positive post yet. I'm not sure who he roots for, but it sure as hell isn't KU.
Without negativity, can there be positivity?
TCU is not the worst team in the league by a long shot.
We won this game because of open looks caused by penetration. With what our guards can do, we can cause damage in multiple ways. Watch the game again. Graham and Mason are stars.
@betterfireE great post!! I agree!
Seems it WORKED OUT GOOD For you. We have discovered a troll. I will no longer reply to the diatribe that shows up for a loss or close game. @icthawkfan316 had you pegged a long time ago as an attacker that show's up to degrade KU Basketball.
Look, I think Selfs whole agenda is to keep developing the so-far subpar post game, so as to take our great 2 PGs, along with our committee of wings, and add BETTER post play. And as a team, we'd better add 40min of intensity, not just 20- or 36-min of intensity.
I cannot believe someone would reveal their lack of analytical understanding about the loss to KY in this way, and this late into the season. Man, so after seeing 3/4ths of a season's frosh roller coaster out of Cliff + Oubre, as well as early season inconsistency from Ellis + Selden, we think it a valid argument to assign the KY loss to our post play???? Look, some games are a matchup problem, and that was such from the get go, and it was worse than vs Stanford, which was only like 5 games prior.
Uh, and wasnt KY loss a team fail? Mason drove to score instead of driving-to-dish, as did Selden. In that kind of game the bigs keep moving & flowing off back screens, etc, to arrive near the rim at precisely the time Mason, Selden, or Graham arrive, so that there is someone to dish TO. Oh, but see what rehearsal, practice, and orchestration that would require? All by the 2nd or 3rd game of the season? Against a 10deep, NC-runner-up?
How about making a valid argument, at least. Myriad of reasons KU was NOT competetive against KY's 5 guys with 7+ft wingspan. 1on1 or 1on3 basketball isnt going to cut it. No way our team was ready for KY. Too young, too short, too inexperienced, and too simple minded. KY this season might have given the 08Champs a real handful. Be realistic in our comparisons and expectations, please. KU, this season, in game 2 of the season, was in no way, shape, or form, in a position to battle KY. This was absolutely NOT a matchup where you feed the post for a back to basket post move by your big. No, this was about bigs flowing into the paint, in timing with the guard penetrations. But y'all see we werent ready to execute that kind of play at that point. Think how IowaState bigs McKay and Niang are often following into the paint for assists or stickbacks. Nobody should be expecting us to beat KYs bigs with back-to-basket postplay from 6'8 guys?
Dang, I forgot to look to see who the op was. Nothing new here, move on.
Because a guy calls out Self we pile on him? Anyone here happy with that game yesterday? TCU at AFH is a game the walkons should be in playing with 3 minutes left. Hell, Bill himself thought that or he wouldn't have suited out a team manager! And if you think Bill didn't think that then why wouldnt Self suit out the manager for Senior night instead?!?
We, so nobody thinks I'm a troll, are actually 22-5. Jaybate, you a troll? Wouldn't a real fan know that? :tongue: And we aren't the youngest team in America or a BCS school. USC, UK, Vandy, VaTech, and IU are all younger or just as young. UK is 26-0 so the young excuse can be dropped.
I felt hurt by his post.
And I feel intimidated and hurt by your post appearing to broad brush fellow members as piling on, when all I can recall anyone doing was responding. All I did was ask a question.
And I feel hurt by your post asking me if I am a troll.
And I feel attacked and intimidated by you.
@jaybate-1.0 sorry for my cyber bullying.
Apology accepted. Rock Chalk.
@Kip_McSmithers allowed one time! Jk
As far as your question, No, I am not unhappy about the win; I will take an ugly win any day over the alternative...what is the alternative? A pretty loss? Thanks but no thanks.
Chris Huey, the student manager suited up because this was the game where he had the better chance of playing. Do you think the Texas or WVU games would have been better choices? I don't think so. Keep in mind that Huey is not part of the roster, he is a student manager that was given a special reward for his contribution, but Senior Day is reserved for players that were actually part of the roster. Nothing against Huey but he started playing ball in at St. Marys College in Leavenworth and had to quit because of health reasons (3 collapsed lungs), he is not a walk on and even at the top of his game he would have made the team at KU as a walk on.
There are no weak team in the Big 12. TCU, the team that you claim KU walk ons should be playing beat OSU...yes, that OSU that beat KU, and lost in OT on a controversial call at WVU...yes, that WVU that beat KU and also lost in OT to Baylor.
I understand that you are not happy with the way KU is playing and that is understandable but you post seems a little misdirected. BTW, the original starting 5 for UK are Stein and Poytress, both juniors, the twins, both sophomores and Towns a freshman; four of them returning starters; a little more experience than KU, wouldn't you agree?
@Kip_McSmithers The problem people perceive with the post in question is not that he/she called out Self for this game or for the KY game or for that matter any game this year. It is that the poster has called out Self about 95% of the time he/she posts both here and at kusports.com for years. Not withstanding an occasional disclaimer he /she doesn't think that Self can coach worth a shizz.
Perhaps the poster is correct. KU should win at least 98% of its games and most by at least 20 to 30 points. Good coaches do that. Don't they?
@JayHawkFanToo An alternative to an ugly win could also be a decisive win. But that's not the exact opposite of an ugly win so its not catchy. Want to know who expected a decisive win? Vegas. And Bill. You didn't expect Tyler to play yesterday? BTW, thanks for the hx on the manager. I watched the game too. Read the KUSports piece as well. L
Do I think he had a better chance against UT or WVU?
Not sure why you ask this. Thought I made it clear that i figured BS felt TCU was Huey's best chance to log minutes so that's why he picked yesterday and not a later game.
Also you may want to check our original starting 5. (Traylor, Ellis, Greene, Selden, Mason). 2j 3so
@sfbahawk Not sure on @KUinLA hx of negativity here or in KUSports. I've seen some negative comments over in KUSports but I haven't a slightest clue who's who there. Maybe he's the Rodney guy. Or is he not negative? I don't follow their comments section. As for here I like that there are people that will question Self and his tactics. This is one of KUs best outside / worst inside shooting teams in the BS era.
Why not question why we don't run sets for our three ballers?
Anyone here think running a high low against UK or any L&A team is going to equal tourney success for us?
@jaybate-1.0 Upvote for the sensitive Jaybate..I about spewed my suds on that one...lmao...
@Kip_McSmithers "sorry for my cyber bullying."
PHOF!
Also you may want to check our original starting 5. (Traylor, Ellis, Greene, Selden, Mason). 2j 3so
I did not list the starting 5 for KU so I cannot really check that right? FWIW, against UK, KU's real fist game the starting five was Traylor, Ellis, Oubre, Selden, Mason, 2 Jr., 2 So, 1 FR...but more importantly and as I mentioned in my post about UK. KU played only 2 returning starters, Ellis and Selden; Black, Tharpe and Wiggins were the other 3. You can replace Greene for Oubre but Greene was a not a returning starter either.
Did you watch the TCU game? The TCU players were glued to our 3 point shooters, particularly Greene who I thought had grown a Siamese twin. Even the game announcers indicated that Grahams was the one KU player that could get himself free and create his own 3 point shot. KU tries to run sets for the 3 point shooters but the other teams have a say on how the plays develop and with Greene shooting only when he is wide open and unguarded, which tends to happen less and less, the 3 point opportunities have decrease as the conference schedule wears on. FWIW, KU has not run the classic/typical Self Hi-Lo for while now. KU is not passing inside, it is driving inside with a dish when available or a quick pass to the outside. Just my opinion.
People don't seem to understand that TCU is a actually a good perimeter guarding team and that Big 12 is stacked this year. We'll have something like 7 of them in the tourney, and how many do you suppose will get knocked out of the first round?
@Kip_McSmithers Just a minor point about "throwing out the youth factor" is that KY returned at least 4 guys that played in the NC game and Final 4. Experience is a great teacher.
We had a soph (Mason) leading us, who last year went out in the 2nd round vs Stanford. Same for Jr Ellis and Jr Jamari. Same two 6'8 guys that had trouble with Stanfords 2 x 6'10+ guys. So now we put em up against KY's 5 guys with 7ft wingspans, and also more athleticism than Stanford. Oubre, a frosh, had almost no experience, and also a not-yet-lit lightbulb.
I just don't see how we match up in any tangible way (in game 2 of this season) with last year's NCrunner-up.
For the board rats in general: Using the KY loss to say anything about KU is about the worst example, as there were sooo many KU players on a steep learning curve at that moment. Mostly just raw, green wood...And don't forget all the comments by scores of people about Ellis playing 'soft', in sharp contrast to how tough he has been playing the last few weeks (kudos to Perry Ellis!).
Rush to judgement after game2 of the season by the originator of this thread, seems, imho to be a rash move. Self always says judge his teams after the non-conf, then after the BigXII season, then after the Tournament. But then, if a particular fan doesn't care for Self or his coaching philosophy, then it really doesn't matter what Self says. That's OK. Its not for everyone.
RCJH, everyone...beat Purple! (the less-than-TCU-purple, that is!)
Man rough crowd. I'm almost afraid to post. :)
I'm like anyone I'll take a bad win over a bad loss any day, but I think the issue is??? Well is this team getting any better? As fans we have been teased at times at what this team can really do, however other times we walk away thinking how did we even win this game.
I'm not going to pretend I have the answers because I don't. It's just this team frustrates me to death. It is dripping with talent, and it seems to be on the verge of having a swagger. Yet at times it plays like it has no idea what its doing. (shaking my head).
Ah maybe I'm just to invested with KU as a fan that I've just become too critical and blinded by my madness. I guess I'm joining that crowd of yea a conference championship is nice, but man I want make some noise in the tournament. To be honest I really want a rematch with UK.
Oh well that's all I have to say.
@nuleafjhawk Sorry, I didn't use 'us' because I don't feel like part of the team--Bill never listens to me, lol.
@ralster Yes, I am embarrassed to reveal my lack of analytical understanding about the loss to Kentucky. I thought it was because Bill insisted on pounding the ball inside to our undersized players, who repeatedly got their shots blocked. Can't believe I so misunderstood what really happened in that game.
And yeah, I'll stand by my post that Frank Mason was the one bright spot in that game for Kansas. Even though, at Freshman + 2 games, he hadn't figured out how to dish off his drives, he still exhibited the ability to get into the paint and to the rim. I'll take that any day.
As far as your last paragraph, well I can't even figure out what point you're trying to make. As far as I can tell, you're backing up my propositions.
@jaybate-1.0 Yeah, I'll give Bill credit for his record. And yeah, I'm spoiled by that gaudy regular season record. No one else can boast a better regular season record or record of tournament appearances. But it's just that that leads me to expect more. We are Kansas, after all.
And I'll give him credit for playing the toughest schedule he can devise.
And yet, I wonder if that schedule is a product of him finally realizing that our conference schedule is not doing enough to prepare us for the Tournament. Although I believe our conference is on the upswing (I wouldn't be surprised to see Iowa St, Oklahoma and Baylor all make it to the Sweet Sixteen, and maybe even us), I still don't see the Big 12 as a 'Power Conference,' having placed no team beside Kansas in the Final Four in the last 10 years. Check the stats on the other 'power conferences' in that regard.
And while I credit Bill for his regular season record, I also call him to account on his tournament upsets, especially against nobodies. That's what my negativity is all about. Just like Bill does with his players, I see in terms of 'what could we be doing better?" Sorry if that ruffles the feathers of all the posters here who seem completely satisfied with winning our 'Cake-walk Conference' year after year and then going home early in the real tournament almost every year.
ps--I thought your reply to @Kip_McSmithers was kinda whiny--especially from such an articulate poster who always seems to relish defending his ideas. Hope you're feeling okay.
I heard the Big 12 Conference trophy was made of iron pyrite.
The crowd at KUSports, whom we always accuse of being negative and whiny must be having a hayday reading some of the threads we've got going.
OK for all of those above who don't think Self is very good. I apologize for my troll comment and present the Viagra article that will speak to your side of the aisle.
http://rockchalkblog.com/2015/02/22/sacrifice-big-12-championships-for-march-success/ ↗
Seem like I always end up apologizing.
@KUinLA - Hang in there. Bang away at what you believe. I've read your posts for years, and have enjoyed your candor and direct approach. And as you know, you and I have not always agreed. But you are right on target here.
I have found, sometimes, the best way to approach a post one might see as a touch rough is to first analyze whether the content is correct.
Regarding Kentucky, our game was clearly feed the post and what Self said it was, drive and dish. We did both -- we fed the post and we drove (but did not dish). Both were plainly evident against UK.
After the game, Self gave us the famous line about game planning:
“This game plan crap that everybody talks about; this isn’t football,” Self said. “We play to our strengths, and you don’t just change offenses because the other team is tall. Our whole deal early on was drive to pass. And we didn’t; we drove to shoot.”
If we can agree that throwing it into the post is a bad strategy against UK, who made that choice heading into the UK game? Coach Self.
Who, after the UK game, said "you just don't change offenses because the other team is tall"? Coach Self.
Who, after the UK game, mocked game planning? Coach Self.
I'm not saying you change offenses. I'm saying you adjust your scheme to take advantage of your assets.
I'm saying you do exactly what coach Self said that you do -- using coach Self's exact words -- "“We play to our strengths ... " And that is all @KUinLA is saying, as well.
However, while we here at kubuckets.com had already posted multiple times regarding focusing this team on the perimeter game before the season even started, coach Self chose his tried and true. And really, I have no issue with that early in the season. No way to know, for sure, that it was not going to work. We could only speculate (of course now, it is not speculation).
Now, cast your crimson and blue colored glasses aside, and ask yourself this question:
As we stand here now, does anyone think it wise to run our standard offense and focus on throwing the ball into the post against UK?
I'm interested if anyone that posts here thinks that our standard, feed the post offense is the way to beat UK?
If you answer "no", you are venturing into red pill territory. You are questioning authority. You are challenging the monolith. You seek the truth.
And I will offer an alternative to some comments above. It is not just whether we win ugly, or lose. Those aren't the only choices. You can win pretty. You can win going away. You can win by exploiting your offensive resources and kicking the other team's a**. We can win "play(ing) to our strengths ... " Or you can win ugly, at home, against TCU --- shooting 10 three pointers. Or you can lose on the road at WVU, shooting only 11 three pointers.
22-5, winning the conference all these years, provides evidence.
Getting upset in the NCAA tourney ahead of "chalk" on the bracket -- beaten by a team that we are favored to beat, four of the last five seasons -- also provides evidence.
Sometimes the evidence is not crystal clear.
You make a very good point about this team with the statement
"Well is this team getting any better"
I bet you can ask 50 KU fans and get a wide variety of answers on that subject.
I think the team got better over the break and our Big 12 Stats say that we have been good enough to win any given night. I think this team has come in spurts or "runs" especially if you break the season down into segments.
If we focus just on conference play we've either gotten better by game or worse. This also includes playing at home vs away. We've won ugly at home (OU 2nd half, TCU, K-St, OSU), we've lost ugly on the road (WVU, OSU) not counting ISU because we just weren't prepared and we did fight back to make it close. We can take games from certain half's or 5-10 minute segments from others where this team is great, clicking on all cylinders. Then we can point out how quickly those cylinders come off just as easy.
I think as fans, especially talking about everything KU everyday we are invested and therefore its easy to be critical. We know what this teams ceiling can be and when we underperform its hard to understand why but that's all part of the madness and why this game is so great.
If and that's the magical if, we get to play UK again this year we can all assume Self won't run his standard stuff against them. He would scheme to find a way to get the open shots we didn't get 1st time around. Self is a master at planning payback games. Mason for most of the season has been deadly at driving to dish to open shooters. So those are a few things going into our favor if we did get the repeat chance. You'd have to think mentally our guys would be amped up to give some payback as well.
I thought the model on how to beat them would be to shoot a high % from the field and out-effort them but we've seen teams make 11 3's on them and still lose (ole miss) and we've seen A&M struggle from the field and nearly win. Those close games have all seen the bounces go their way whether it be FT's, rebounds, shots etc..
The tournament is always a different story than the regular season. I mean how does UConn & UK make the finals without a lot of luck going their way. UConn went to OT in the 1st game, UK needed 3 point Heroics from the Harrison boy more than once. Offensive scheme change or not, it could come down to 1 shot, 1 loose ball, 1 rebound to knock them off...
@BeddieKU23 I have a dream, and that dream is that we somehow reach a game against UK. And in that dream, coach Self goes four out, one in and it is a massacre. UK can't keep up. They try to match our three point shooting and get away from their size advantage inside. But it is only a dream.
@BeddieKU23 I'd be willing to bet you a boatload of cash that if we did play UK again, Self would STILL go with his standard offense. Because if he's willing to change when facing UK, why in the world wouldn't he do so against Baylor? Or West Virginia? Even more perplexing, why was he willing to do it against ISU? It's a very confusing situation. We shot over 50% against WV. Let me ask you, do you think if we shoot twenty we win that game? I do. I think we win by double digits. We should've won the game anyway, but that's neither here nor there.
I am absolutely dreading tonight's game. I hate to admit this to my Jayhawk brethren, but I think this is a close game throughout (with us leading most of the way), and we end up losing in the last 5 minutes. And when we look at the stat sheet, we'll see that we only shot 12 three pointers, making over 50% again in a loss. Self's "Fool's Gold" comment is starting to make him look bad.
@MoonwalkMafia If you are right about this, you are never allowed to comment prior to that night's game. Or make predictions. You have been warned. :warning:
@nuleafjhawk I know! I'm so sorry! But if I can't cry on the shoulders of my fellow KU fans here, where else can I go???
Jaybate: I feel hurt, I feel attacked, That was the best approach to humor I've seen in while. But it was the medicine the string needed.
Self is the master of deception. Through the season he does not want to show the conference any film to game against the team. So he does all this stupid stuff just to drive the other coaches crazy. Sometimes it works and sometimes fails. With this he also gets to build his players in different ways and works on gaming against the other teams. Defense comes first and later on he works on offense. Some players have a hard time with things they do not have experience in, Kelly vs defense and Cliff vs offense.
Kelly has come around and tonight will be Alexanders night to shine as I think he can be the answer to Gipson if he plays well. I would be concerned about this team if Alexander does not play well tonight as that would tell us the Self did not hold him out to save him for this game. I'm not sure we beat TX without Alexander stepping up.
I would rather we just not talk about what we can do with the next game with UK, we can't control the future but we can prepare for this game tonight and take them one at a time TX, WV, OK.
I'm not very good at expressing myself in this forum guys, so let me have a little practice.
@HighEliteMajor Thanks--you kinda remind me of The Clash--"The only (poster whose opinion) matters"
Thanks again--of course, no offense to the other posters here.
@nuleafjhawk If it makes you feel any better, I don't feel we should've lost a game in the last 30 years. I seem to have more patience with this team than I normally do. Not sure if that's the result of having lived through last year's season, or simply a 54 year old's thinking kicking in. I guess a few of the old farts around here could answer that for me...
( Disclaimer : I can say old farts because I are one)
@ralster said:
Just a minor point about "throwing out the youth factor" is that KY returned at least 4 guys that played in the NC game and Final 4. Experience is a great teacher.
Are you agreeing with me on this?? Because I look at the youth factor and wonder..... how's UK overcome the lack of prior FF/NC/youth experience last season when they made their run with 4 freshmen leading in minutes played??? Keep in mind the only tourney experience that Stein & Poythress had prior to that was a NIT loss.
@betterfireE : Never realized TCU was good at d'ing the 3 but their stats do show that, touche. You KenPom? Which Big12 opponent held us to below 40%FG this season?? :Hint: We've played them twice and they held us under both games.
@wrwlumpy I hope my comments don't lead you to believe that I don't think Self is a good coach. Honestly I think we as Kansas fans are very fortunate to have him as our coach. He's a HoF'er, first balloter. But I'm not married to him so I just don't always have to agree with what he does. :grinning: And isn't this back and forth another fun part of being an arm chair point guard?