🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Recruiting never stops. But we have a good indication of what we will have for next year since our current available scholarships have been used up.

So how did we do?

Rank this year's recruiting class from 1 to 10. If you want to throw in some comparisons to other years, do it.

I give this class a solid 8+ and call it "very good." Sure, there were a few other players that I would have liked to sign, just for this coming year's run... but it looks like we may have at least two quality players that will stay for more than one year, and looking ahead to a year from now, I think we will be in for even a bigger ride than this year!

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2015 Kansas Trio: Carlton Bragg, Cheick Diallo & LeGerald Vick

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Ole Miss Transfer Coleby Chooses KU

I give it a 9. If we get Chukwu its a 10. I view Diallo as the best player in the class and getting him was huge not only for his defensive skills and overall energy which the team needs but should also help open up Ellis to have a big year too. Beyond Diallo, we didn't necessarily get the best players persay, but we can't do much better for a class specifically selected for Kansas. KU needs multi-year guys, especially with 3 seniors this year. Bragg is one of the best multi-year prospects in the class. Vick seems to be blossoming and Colby fits the mold for a solid KU big man and we should have each for several years.

The reason I say its a 10 if we get Chukwu is because not only is he a multi-year guy, and 7'-2" tall which are both great things for KU, but we'd be adding him to the class without a scholarship. That's incredible. If Self pulls that off, its a 10 in my book.

@RockkChalkk

With you there. Chukwu bumps us to a 10. There just aren't many super trees out there, especially that can walk and chew gum at the same time. Plus... it seems we would have him for 2 years, another plus!

This class filled needs and that's what it's supposed to do. I would rate this class a solid 7 because there's other players I would've preferred to have landed, but I can't complain about who Self did land because they all filled a need.

Diallo filled the need of a rim protecting, post player that compliments Perry very well. Carlton Bragg fills the need of a future high post player after Perry and Jamari graduate this season. I don't expect big things out of Bragg this year because he has 2 guys ahead of him who will play the vast majority of the minutes at the 4 this year. Lagerald Vick adds depth to the backcourt which was needed and could allow Devonte Graham to slide into the starting line up. Dwight Coleby wasn't my preference as the transfer, but he is a big body that can likely back up Landen Lucas when becomes eligible.

Chukwu as a walk on would be nice, but I don't think he's the guaranteed star some think he will be. He's not a great scorer, or rebounder and he's foul ratio is really bad. Chukwu may turn inot the player some think he will, he may not develop. He is a project in every sense of the word and why I always preferred Johnathan Williams III over him because Williams is a proven scorer, rebounder, defender, and cold play either post spot in Self's offense.

I also believe Self backed off Jaylen Brown once he knew Svi and Greene were coming back because that took away the desperate need at the wing and allow Self ton focus on finding a transfer big to soften the blow of likely losing 4 bigs.

I love this class. To me it is a perfect blend of players and talent levels.

1. It has an OAD and only one OAD. This is perfect. Get one guy who is NBA ready. You have to to try and keep up with Kentucky, Duke, etc.

2. McD's guy who is not an OAD. I really love this. If Bragg can be another Perry Ellis I am all for that. I'd take this kind of player every day of the week.

3. A guy that is unheralded and just now getting the love he probably deserves from the scouts. Mason and Graham are proof that Bill gets these diamond in the rough players and turns them into studs.

4. A big body transfer who already knows how to play D1 level defense, etc. The guy has played against the bigs from UK and is a physical presence. Needs polishing and needs to learn how to make post moves. This is one of Bill's specialties.

I would say it is an 8. Like others said we addressed needs, and that is more important than rankings in my opinion. If we miss on CD and he goes to ISU or St. John's we are looking at this class as maybe a 5? 6 at best? Bragg is going to be special, hoping this year, but expecting next year; but he isnt the style of big we needed. (Side note we could have out Iowa Stated Iowa State with a combination of Frank, Graham, Svi, Greene, Bragg and Perry on the floor! )

I think we got what we needed a power 5 that plays with energy and then 3 guys that have high ceilings. Vick and Bragg should push Wayne and Traylor for PT and that is a great thing. Seems like this is a great year for the WUG, we will get to see guys compete early. To me it jump starts the starting 5 arc we always talk about, who starts in November may not start in Feburary. This year maybe a Bragg or Vick becomes a 6th or 7th man because of how well they played in the WUG....

I like baseball analogies.

I'd say this was a triple. If we had landed Chukwu instead of Coleby, it would have been a home run. That's because (in my mind) Chukwu was more highly rated than Coleby, didn't fail to break into a starting lineup for two seasons like Coleby (Chukwu only one), Chukwu has three more seasons left, and, of course Chukwu is 7 foot tall and fits the rim protector ideal that seems to work in Self's system -- perhaps I missed the posts of folks saying he was a "guaranteed star" or something as @Texas-Hawk-10 suggests.

Home run, in my mind, would be -- could we reasonable expect/hope for anything better than we got? If the answer is "no", then it's a home run.

Bragg's addition was huge -- the must have foundational piece, and Vick's late signing was terrific ... both projected multi-year guys. Diallo was what we were left with, our only option, the must have OAD. And Self got him. If we're running in the OAD world, Diallo was a huge signing (and no hint of prima donna in him, to this point).

Stand up triple.

I'll let you know in April :)

@HighEliteMajor I haven't seen anyone use that specific phrase, but the way he's been talked about just gives me the impression that a lot people (especially on KUSports) think Chukwu will be an instant star once he's eligible just because he's 7-2. His numbers last year make me believe he is a massive project that has a decent chance of never panning out. His rebounding numbers were horrible for someone his size, his foul rate was really bad (7,5 per 40 min) and his shot blocking form is why his foul rate is so bad. He swings down on his blocks and makes a lot of contact with opposing players in the paint even when he makes a block.

Just like you're never going to be convinced to be a Jamari Traylor fan, I'm just not a Chukwu fan and there's nothing that can be said to turn me into one.

Can't be a 9-10 because only one reputed OAD in the age of stacks, and no Brown to replace Oubre, or a scoring footer to make us a serious threat in Madness.

So: it's anywhere from an 8 down to a 5. It would be an 8 if all four can play in the rotation through March. 7 if 3 can. 6 if only two can. 5 if only one can.

@drgnslayr It's a 10 for me, A motivated OAD, along with two 2- 3 year players are what the Dr ordered. Not sure about Coleby, but he'll have a year in the program before he hits the floor, so he'll give us a big body we'll need next year.

I'm doing this on the fly as I type. But I'm breaking it down into two grades for each player. The first being immediate impact and the second being future impact.

Diallo
- 9.5/10 immediate need. (Only because he isn't 7ft)
- 5/10 future impact. Not sure he will be OAD, but if he is it still helps future recruiting.

Bragg
- 9/10 immediate need. (Need some scoring help in the frontcourt outside of Perry).
- 9/10 future impact. Odds are he is around for another year and will be THE guy.

Vick
- 4/10 immediate need. (Not sure what to think of him still. Should barely see the floor, but I could be wrong).
- 9/10 Future impact. A rangy SG with a solid upside. I like his future in the program.

Colbey
- No grade for immediate need. So stacked at the frontcourt that this seems to be a great move.
- 7.5/10 Future impact. I like the toughness I've seen. Seems like he will be a solid rotation guy.

So adding all of that together I came up with roughly a 7.5/10.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I do think he is a project as well. Seems like the perfect project, though, to take on if we could. Do you think that his flaws are coachable? Swinging down on his blocks, for example, seems fixable. Saying he's our next Jeff Withey might be a bit of stretch, but I don't see how anyone could not view adding Chukwu as a positive. If you take him on, the worst you have is an underachieving 7 footer as your 5th big guy. On the other hand, it would seem like he's the classic upside gamble.

But it's irrelevant. He visiting UVA, MSU, and UConn.

I have to say that my position on Traylor is based on seeing him play for three years in a Kansas uniform. But if Traylor plays well, I'd be more than happy to become a fan. Rebounding would be a good start. Of note, Chukwu's rebounding rate is 33% better than that of Traylor (which supports your point a bit ... should be a bigger margin). And Coleby's was about 20% better than Chukwu (again supporting your point).

@KUSTEVE If Bragg, Diallo, Vick, and Coleby are a 10, what would Rush, Chalmers, Wright, and Downs be? Is this recruiting class on par with Bo Derek, the original 10? Or Morris twins, Tyshawn, Releford and Withey's transfer? Or even TRob, EJ, and X? I'm skeptical. Maybe your 10 is like how they do grades now in high schools -- where a kid can get better than a 4.0? I think this giddiness deserves an explanation.

Like a couple of posters here (we are in the minority) I am not sold on Chuckwu; he did not do much at Providence, that plays in a league not nearly as good as the Big 12, so there is nothing out there to suggest he will do well in the tougher Big 12. Yes, he is a footer and as such he always will have potential, but beyond that, he has not shown much. I have done some reading on Coleby and he seems to have as much or more potential than Chuckwu and he seems to be more ready to contribute than Chuckwu as well. I guess we can compare notes in couple of years and see how each developed.

BTW, I give this class a solid 9.

@JayHawkFanToo hoes?

@Crimsonorblue22

How...

@JayHawkFanToo just kidding you! I was using the old hoe today!!

@HighEliteMajor If we're going to compare this class to a class that was integral to our 2008 championship, lets compare it to the bigs-heavy class that preceded the Chalmers, Rush, Wright, Downs class....

Galindo, Giles, Jackson, Kaun, Robinson... If this new class is an integral piece to an NC as that one was? Yes, a 10 I'd think, at that's the goal That 2004 class would have to be a 10 as well.

Pre and post OAD-era-at-Kansas comparison is very difficult. Even the class you mentioned had a supposed OAD in Rush, and it was a bit of luck that we had him until his Junior year.

@Crimsonorblue22

Don't call her that...elderly lady of the nigh, maybe???

Just kidding... :D

I give the class a 9.5

The only reason its not a 10 for me is missing on some kids and wasted recruiting time on certain kids.

I had to do some digging but some of my first posts on this site were in response to what I wanted from this class. I wanted Bragg, Diallo, Brown & Tyler Davis. Bragg & Diallo were my top 2 choices so we hit a home-run there. The Diallo circus sucked and even though we won that battle, some of the shadiest recruiting tactics happened to try and get him.

I'm super excited for what we got. Vick could really be an ace down the line & Coleby looks to have some development talent left

@HighEliteMajor I figured you'd give them a 10 as well. This is your Kaviar Shepard class, with 75% of the class highly likely to return for multiple years. That bodes well for our future.

I guess I could attempt to sell you on the idea that Diallo could make the largest impact of any OAD in the Self era, but I know how upsetting this concept seems to be to some of the brethren around here. So, I will soft-sell the idea of watching Diallo instead of Jamari/Lucas at the 5 should be worth the 10 ranking by itself.

I was unaware of a guy named Carlton Bragg until a poster named HEM referenced him long before the recruiting season as the essential "go-get" out there. I happened to agree after watching this guy absolutely light it up, and was thrilled when he signed with us. Now, I know now from our other brethren on here there could be "no possible way" that Bragg could ever make up the 9 ppg we lost from Oubre, but just call me a blind optimist by saying he will score that much.

Then we have that "low rated" guy named Vick, who i said would bring lightening fast quickness, and speed that our team needed. Thank God the "board experts" were right on hand to correct me that NO...Vick doesn't have Div 1 quickness. Quote from Coach Self yesterday:

“He may be the best athlete on our team. He may be the highest jumper. He may be the quickest player ... Lagerald Vick,” Self said of the 6-foot-5, 175-pound freshman combo guard from Memphis.

I guess Self hasn't gotten the memo yet...lol.

So, I admit my 10 ranking was a reaction to the wave of beatdowns I received for being excited about the new guys we have coming in. And I apologize in advance for using your simple question to fire back...lol. As Jaybate says, no malice intended.

@KUSTEVE You're certainly an optimist, but I don't think you're blind. Call it rational optimism. Heck, we all know this class could be gold, or it could go the way of the dodo bird. No way to tell yet. But the rational optimism is appreciated. Amazing where we sit now vs. 60 days ago.

I would have gone a 10 if we had gotten Tyler Davis instead of Diallo.

I can't tell if these WUGs will be the mid summer fix I need or akin to being teased by a beautiful woman?

I cant wait to see Vick and Bragg play, because when we have the full squad in November I'm not sure how much they will contribute this year.

I love the responses.

60 days ago the ship was on the verge of collapsing, Self called in his 9th inning Closer and pulled 3 recruits in less than 2 months time.

He fought off all the vultures for Diallo, jumped the gun on the competition at word of Vick being available (don't tell me Brown didn't probably have some influence in that) & got a transfer big with 2 years left.

Bragg started the parade with his mid-season verbal. That got us off the ledge from the fall signing period.

We coulda woulda shoulda gotten Tyler Davis or Dorsey, or Jaylen Brown or Brandon Ingram but in the end we landed the kids that wanted to come to KU. I have no problem with recruiting into the early parts of the summer as long as the quality of the player is the same. Self has proven once again he can haul in the guys especially late in the game. Now its up to him to coach em up..

@BeddieKU23 You said, "Self has proven once again he can haul in the guys especially late in the game. Now its up to him to coach em up."

Boy that's true. Graham and Svi last year late, and now the three guys this year.

@BeddieKU23

"...in the end we landed the kids that wanted to come to KU."

I think that is the key to good recruiting. I was really hopeful we would land Jaylen Brown because I thought he was the final piece in a serious March run this next year.... but in the end... if he wasn't feeling it for being a Jayhawk, he would have just created synergy issues with the team. Even though Vick is a lower-rated player, he has the tools to play at a high level and he appears to be extremely happy being a Jayhawk! So, in the end, we got the right player for us!

Team chemistry is vital... we all know that. It seems like the guys we got all fit well together. Very important.

As far as ranking this class... as @wissoxfan83 said... we'll know in April! That is true... largely the impact of our new guys will be determined by our veteran players. For example... Cheick's offense will be accentuated or negated by players like Perry, Frank, Devonte and Wayne. These are the guys who will be counted on most for execution and have to FIND Cheick's offense with him. Get him the ball in the right spot and he'll score. Get him the ball in the wrong areas and he will have troubles scoring.

Grading this class is dependent on what you think of Bragg and Vick.

If Vick can contribute this year in a way that makes KU a more creative offensive team, that raises the grade. If Bragg is an off the bench two way force, that also raises the grade. However, those are the best case scenarios.

Scenario 1 (Class Grade 6)

Diallo is a good defender, but offers very little on offense, fouls a little too much and generally is a one way (defense) player. As a result, KU's offense sometimes stagnates with him on the floor. However, his defense and athleticism still makes him an OAD.

Bragg shoots the ball well from the perimeter, but is a project on defense and isn't aggressive enough attacking the rim after being bitten by the turnover bug early in the year, making him very one dimensional on offense as a spot up shooter and is prone to defensive lapses. Returns for his sophomore year.

Vick barely plays, getting spot minutes, fails to take care of the basketball or defend effectively. We worry that he is more like Woolridge and White.

Scenario 2 (Class Grade 8.5)

Diallo is great on defense and is useful in the deep post. The jumpshot is still a work in progress, but he brings enough to the table that he always occupies a man on defense. He makes the jump to the NBA as a surefire top 10 pick.

Bragg is a bench scorer, effective both on the perimeter and in the post. He's a little shaky on defense, but Diallo cleans up a lot of the messes he creates. His athleticism covers some lapses as well. He returns to KU to shore up his game.

Vick provides a spark in a couple of games, but is mostly used in mop up duty. He shows flashes, but doesn't burn brightly on a consistent basis.

Scenario 3 (Grade 10)

Diallo is a one man destroyer on defense. In addition, the offensive game isn't just a few rudimentary post moves. He has a nifty jump hook and a decent face up jumper to go along with his rim attacks, making him a solid scorer to go along with plus plus defense.

Bragg is a dynamic scorer off the bench, averaging double figures in limited minutes. On top of that, his defense improves as the year goes along, making he and Diallo a nightmarish frontline pair for 10-12 minutes a game. Bragg does a bit of everything off the bench, and his ballhandling is good enough to allow him to be a secondary playmaker when the offense stalls.

Vick forces his way into the rotation just before conference play and becomes a surprising defensive monster. His defense gives KU a jolt in the transition game, which allows everyone else to shine. He takes care of the ball in the halfcourt, and his slashing allows the shooters space to spot up and hit from deep.

If I had to pick a most likely scenario of these three, it's Scenario 2. I think Vick is likely to struggle a bit more than most. I see some Tyshawn Taylor potential with him, but I think that comes more in his sophomore and junior years. I think Bragg will help us offensively, but may not be ready to bang in the post or slide on the perimeter. The real question is how far Diallo's offense comes this year, because I think he is only in Lawrence for one year.

@drgnslayr

I totally agree with you on Brown he was the type of player Self has thrived on getting. And he would have continued the trend of freak SF's with un-measurable ceilings.

I'm not sold on Svi or Greene being the answer at the SF spot, some of it may have to do with the fact that I think we will miss how athletic Wiggins & Oubre were the last 2 years and now with Svi & Greene its an unknown if they will take 15 shots inside the arc combined. Any doubt I have is more with the fact that neither has been put in the situation to be the man at that spot. I'm sure either will be fine and erase all the doubt but I do wonder if missing an elite SF will hurt us..

Report is Svi is being much more aggressive (a good sign) but Greene we all know is doing next to nothing while recovering so we know he isn't going to change his game yet.

Brown would have been that guy you can clear out and say hey get in the lane and get to the line. That's what Brown will do at Cal, and I'm sure their fans are giddy about getting him. I'm hopeful as Self has said this spring that Wayne Selden will realize he's 6'5 of pure brut force and to use that body for once and consistently. HS mixtape Wayne where are you??

I'm really excited about Vick, something about him says he can get some minutes here and there and remind us why Self was so quick to lock him down and get him to re-classify. If he's a freshman who needs time, that 's fine but I just have a feeling we may see a few good games from him this year. He really is dialed in offensively and that is something that can be used immediately.
As a side note it looked like Tyler Davis wanted to go to KU but the offer wasn't genuine enough? We may have never gotten Diallo in the end who could be a game-changer. So there's always trade-offs to who you get and who you don't.

@drgnslayr said:

@BeddieKU23

"...in the end we landed the kids that wanted to come to KU."

umm..i'm not so sure about that. Bragg's first choice was UK and once he didn't get any attention from Cal, he chose his 2nd option.

Diallo was a lock for ISU till the mayor told him he wasn't going to be back (that coupled with Abdelmassih leaving pretty much sealed the deal with KU).

to add to these, look at all the other transfers (hunter, graham, coleby...).

The kids are here and they will be playing for KU, so all the above is moot. but lets call it like it is.

Why is it that when a fan believes a player is going to be great, others say you're just being hopeful and projecting your own want full thoughts? Yet those same people will say the same player is more likely to do this or be this kind of player? Is that not projecting also?

I think this class is a ten, because as a fan I'm more excited about an upcoming season than I have in some time. I love this class because they've had nothing given to them. Even the star of this class Diallo still gets no credit for taking on the best and walking away MVP twice. Are you kidding me? This kid has a chip on his shoulder like not other. Yep this kid is going to be nasty. Bragg wants to be a Jayhawk, the best part he doesn't have to be the man on such a veteran team. No he can let the game come to him. Late in the season look for all the hoopla that comes with being a star. The kid has game. The addition of Coleby Cheese is perfect and most important. with all the bigs KU will be losing next year. Mister Coleby is perfect for KU. A footer with a chance to learn how to play basketball the right way, and spend all that time with Hudy. No way anything wrong with this. Lets not for get the Vick? The surprise none of you know about but will soon enough :)

Sometimes we want to rate recruiting classes off the level of talent and the amount gathered. Yet what about a recruiting class that fills a teams need that very year and future needs? Reality says this KU class is no ten. However rating basketball players and recruiting classes isn't about reality it's about perception and projection.

A perfect 10 for this KU recruiting class. I'm calling it.

@DoubleDD sounds good!💙🏀❤️

@DoubleDD

I love your optimism! I don't always agree with posters optimism... but I don't like to shoot them out of the water for feeling it. Optimism is a big part of what attracts us to our teams. Enjoy your 10 optimism! We should all try harder to be more optimistic.

Imagine all the criticism in '88? People were glad Danny was back, but there was plenty of criticism that we didn't bring in enough talent to help him out.

You called it right... your optimism is your projection, just like for others their projection is negative or neutral. We all just throw out our predictions based on our own egotistical concepts that each of us truly know better than the rest.... including even Self! I'm pointing fingers... at many and also myself! I've often typed myself into being a real scholar on basketball. It just feels good to think I know something about anything! With all the information at our fingertips... these days... it is so easy to find others more knowledgeable.

I do have to say that I pick up a plethora of great information about everything Kansas, Kansas basketball, and just basketball (in general) by tuning in to this website.

I often feel a bit dumb after reading others in here. I'm not about to say that concerning specifics because I already have a wife capable of keeping me in my place! ( @Crimsonorblue22 , I'm not being a P, just showing some humility!)

@elpoyo Bragg's finalists were Kansas and UK. There were zero reports that UK didn't give him attention. Diallo was not a "lock" for ISU. ISU was never the favorite. Kansas was pretty much the leader starting last December. And as additional info, Graham was not a transfer.

@HighEliteMajor said:

@elpoyo Bragg's finalists were Kansas and UK. There were zero reports that UK didn't give him attention. Diallo was not a "lock" for ISU. ISU was never the favorite. Kansas was pretty much the leader starting last December. And as additional info, Graham was not a transfer.

Either he has an obsession with UK or he's just trying to go out of his way to diss them

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24945362/carlton-bragg-says-kentucky-instead-of-kansas-during-commitment ↗

🐦 View Tweet

@elpoyo I guess I'm not tracking with you at all. Your response has nothing to do with the discussion you began.

You said "Bragg’s first choice was UK and once he didn’t get any attention from Cal, he chose his 2nd option."

I responded saying that "Bragg’s finalists were Kansas and UK. There were zero reports that UK didn’t give him attention." You didn't cite anything to show that UK didn't give Bragg attention. In fact, Calipari made an in home visit ↗ and Bragg had an official on campus visit during their Big Blue Madness. UK was pressing hard for Bragg. Bragg just chose KU.

So it wasn't a matter of Bragg choosing his second option as you state. He chose his preference.

Your reply today was to say "Either he has an obsession with UK or he’s just trying to go out of his way to diss them" and to cite the article where he accidentally said UK in his hat ceremony, and some twitter link about his NCAA bracket where he picked Kansas?

That makes zero sense, and doesn't address the discussion point you began.

In your original post, you were suggesting that you were calling "it like it is", but each of your statements were incorrect.

I take this time to address your incorrect post because it was specifically (and misleadingly) made to demean our recruiting efforts -- to suggest that we got guys only by default, or that transfers (at least the two you got right) are less worthy adds. I'm sure you aren't a Withey fan.

Self flat out won the recruiting battles for each guy we got, just like he lost the battles for some guys we didn't get. The turnaround in 60 days of recruiting was amazing. That's what we want from our coach.

@elpoyo Or, he was nervous at being in front of the spotlight, and made a mistake.

@KUSTEVE he really was!

@justanotherfan

I like how you broke it down in scenarios. I tend to agree with your assessment that the second scenario may be the most likely outcome.

I can see Vick struggle, too... at least, early on. His movements are very fast, but he'll be playing in a faster game than he is used to. If the game is moving faster than his mind can keep up, we can expect to see lots of TOs because he'll be telegraphing everything. But maybe he is a fast learner... and if he is, then by late in the season he can shore up his TOs and see the game slow down for him.

He will have this "extra season" of WUG ball to work on bringing his game up to speed. I think him and Carlton have a big advantage and if they really work hard they don't have to play like total freshmen all year... instead play like a hybrid of freshmen/sophomores. That would be a monster advantage for us in March!

@drgnslayr Who plays at the 3? Man it would be great if Svi had a Frank-type fresh/soph improvement, Is he the starter, or does Greene slide in there? Or a split reminiscent of our 5 rotation last year? I have parked my Bragg at the 3 fantasy after watching Trey Lyles school Bragg on drive after drive on Youtube. And, is Vick going to play the 3, or is he going to play at the 2? what say you?

@elpoyo Neither of those links proves your point. Bragg had a slip of the tongue when announcing his decision. Everyone has them, his just happened to occur in front of a camera. The twitter link isn't dissing Kentucky, he just picked the school he had been committed to for several months at that point. It was a biased, homer pick

I would also like to know where there was any evidence ISU was ever in the lead for Diallo. Someone could probably convince me that St. John's was ahead at one point, but that's about it.

@KUSTEVE

You have to give credit where credit is due. Trey Lyles will be playing in the NBA in six months. When he faced Bragg, he was a year and a half from being in the NBA. No surprise that he was doing what he wanted on the floor. Bragg might be an NBA caliber player a year from now, but it is more likely that he won't be ready for the NBA next summer. That means that you had a guy that was older and a year away from being an NBA player facing a younger guy that was nearly three years away from being an NBA player in a best case scenario. And you can't discount that Lyles was/is the better player anyway. Lyles isn't the type of 3 that Bragg would see on a regular basis. He's the toughest type of opponent. Most college 3's would be far less skilled.

@justanotherfan So my fantasy isn't dead?..lol.

@KUSTEVE

The 3 is the spot that is really up for grabs this year. We've been blessed with crazy talent at SF for so long and now it could be our weak spot on the floor.

I think Self doesn't know who will play the 3 most of the time this year. He is going to definitely have tryouts for the job. Up for grabs, but the winner better show tons of aggression! We need a very aggressive 3 that can drive the ball, rebound and defend... using strength and athleticism. And throw on there the ability to nail the 3.

Player / strength / weakness

Svi / well-rounded skill set / physical strength and lacks aggression

BG / spot up shooter / lacks aggression, handles, ability to create his own shot

Vick / athleticism, can drive and create / freshman rookie

Perry / shooting skills and ability to create / inconsistent aggression, medium handles

Carlton / athleticism and build / freshman rookie

This is what I think up til now. I'm doubtful Perry will get a shot at many minutes at the 3, but would be great if he could.

I look at someone like Carlton and think he should be in the KU video vault studying old tape of Marcus Morris. Those skills could get him minutes at the 3 thru 5.

@drgnslayr I've rolled around the thought of Selden at the 3, with Devonte running point, and Frank at the 2. Is that a pipe dream?

@KUSTEVE

I think it is a pipe dream because I view Wayne as having the same mental over-sensitivity that EJ had. You move this kind of player around and his game goes haywire. Sometimes I still imagine EJ being left at the 2 all 4 years and wonder if he would have gotten on track and a shot at playing in the league....

I think what threw Wayne into a year-long slump was partly based on the comment Self had that he could put Wayne at any position 1 thru 4. That must have sent his mind into chaotic calculations!

I'd like to see Self come out this year and announce that Wayne will be locked in as a 2 this year. I think it will make a huge difference in what kind of year he has.

@KUSTEVE

I don't like the thought of Frank and Devonte playing a lot together because we do not know yet if Vick can be the lone ballhandler on the floor if both Frank and Devonte need a break. Remember how much Frank wore down last year when he basically played 38 minutes a game while Devonte was out with injury? We have to keep Frank fresher this year, which means that we have to be able to rest both he and Devonte regularly to keep their minutes around 28-30 each. That means they can only play about 20 minutes a game together, which is not enough for your starting/best group.

I like Perry, but question if he has the lateral quickness to handle smaller 3's (which would be what he would see basically every night). I think Bragg is better equipped to handle that on the defensive end, which is why I like your first idea. I think we see an early season starting group of Mason-Selden-Svi-Ellis-Diallo. Once we know how healthy Greene's hip is, he enters the mix and may even replace Svi in the starting lineup, depending on how Svi plays. Bragg will help out up front, but because he has the best perimeter skills, if Svi and Greene struggle at the 3, Bragg will be an option because Traylor, Mickelson and Lucas can't play there and Bragg will be one of our best 7 players, so getting him on the floor should be a priority.

Speaking of the best 7, I think that is (in no particular order) Mason, Graham, Ellis, Diallo, Bragg, Selden, Svi or Greene. That's the base rotation right now. Vick may get in there, but I didn't see enough in his high school highlights to put him ahead of Selden, so he's on the edge of the rotation now. I still think he has a role ultimately, but he may not have much impact until early in the conference season.

@drgnslayr I agree. I really like the idea of Wayne being at the 3 but I don't think it is the best thing for him and the team.

Mason may not be a "pure" point guard but I think he and Graham will split time playing the PG which is great as we should always have a good ball handler in the game. It is beating a dead horse but a lot of our early exits from the tourney can be blamed on bad guard play (not sure last year is that reason but 2014 and 2013 are examples). This year we should have some of the best ball handling we have had since 2008...or so I hope.

Wayne is due for a great season and I think he will have that if he stays focused on the 2 guard spot. That is the position he has played for the last 2 years as a starter and it is his time to shine. Wiggs is gone. Oubre is gone. Wayne should have the green light and hopefully will string together an entire season of games like Florida and Baylor and not pull the disappearing act like the WSU game.

This year's team is exciting for a number of reasons but my #1 reason is guard play. Mason / Graham / Selden are going to be a force.

@drgnslayr I agree with your approach completely, but I would just lock Wayne into the 3. Let Mason Graham and Svi do the 1-2 thing. Keep Wayne out of the ball handling situations as much as possible. Let him be that "big wing" that Self said he really was, with Greene as his back up. But locking into the 2 is fine with me. Svi and Greene then can do the 3 thing. The point is the same, but your argument is probably better since he has been at the 2 primarily for his two seasons here.

Either way, when Wayne's on the court, he is nothing other than what his predetermined position is. Leave him there.

@drgnslayr Agreed on EJ. he was never the same after going fulltime to the point. I enjoy chewing the fat on possibles in the off season - we have such a deep team with so much experience, along with some really talented rookies coming aboard. This is going to be a year to remember, imo.

@justanotherfan Don't worry about Graham and Mason together. Self would stagger their rest. Further, Svi is your third ball handler, not Vick.

Believe me, I like your rotation. I doubt Self does.

Here's my rotation viewing it from Self's eyes right now.

Starters: Mason, Graham, Selden, Ellis, Lucas.

Rotation Subs: Traylor, Svi, Diallo, Greene.

Minimal Play Sub: Bragg.

No play subs: Mickelson, Vick.

My only hesitancies are Graham or Svi starting, or Lucas or Traylor starting.

@KUSTEVE I think he's a 4.

@HighEliteMajor If Landen Lucas starts over Diallo I really hope he has improved a TON as I did not see anything last year that said "Starting center for a top 5 program". I know you hate seeing Jamari in the game and I personally feel like that about Landen. I hope I am wrong but I just don't see a very high ceiling for him. He really is not great at anything. Good at certain things and plays his ass off but Diallo was brought in to start as far as I'm concerned.

I think the only way an OAD is worth the time and effort is if they come in and make an instant impact and put up numbers. Diallo will be a bust in my eyes if he comes in and gets 15-20 minutes while backing up Landen Lucas during his 1 year.

@HighEliteMajor said:

some twitter link about his NCAA bracket where he picked Kansas?

Some twitter link was a link to his twitter account where he picked kansas to win it all (no problems there), but singled out UK by picking Manhattan to beat UK and even circled Manhattan. Seriously, he fills 1/4th of his bracket and then picked UK to lose in the first round to Manhattan and you think that doesn't mean anything? Clearly something was off and its obvious he was peeved at UK and even posters on KU boards said he was big on UK, but they cooled off him and he apparently didn't like that.

I know its all sunshine over here , but just pointing out what i see. This is afterall a message board where people can put in their opinions...right?

@Crimsonorblue22 You're probably right, but i can't get that step back 3 out of my head, the drives to the hoop that remind me so much of a right handed Oubre, and the way he swats lots of shots away from behind ( trailing plays). My fear is he'll be Perry Ellis2 on the blocks.

@KUSTEVE think he may be worse at D than Perry. Hope I'm wrong!

My thinking is if Wayne steps up and has a banner year, so will the team!

I know the media will be focusing on Perry.. and Cheick and others.... but I have a feeling our year will mimic the performance of Wayne. He really needs to get after it this year and there really isn't any reason why he shouldn't!

Bring it, Wayne!

@Crimsonorblue22 We're agreeing his defense will need work,whether at the 3 or the 4. I would hate for his offensive game to be reduced to trying to score with his back to the basket down low against beefier guys when he would present a true mismatch for most college 3s. But, if he can't defend against the smaller guys, and they are driving right past him, coach wouldn't have him on the floor at the 3 anyway. Good discussion.

@HighEliteMajor Oh mercy, I sure hope you are wrong. I could see it happening but part of me thinks Self is starting to learn a little bit that he needs to get his best horses out there sooner and let them take their lumps early in the season. If he could find a way to speed up that learning curve for his studs he would in theory be able to get more out of them when it matters most at the end of the season.

It just seemed odd last year that when the newspapers and espn articles started writing a lot about Oubre's lack of playing time that suddenly the "light" came on for him and his minutes went way up. It felt like more than a coincidence. The big time recruits will hesitate to come to KU if they think they will be buried on the bench for half the year. Actually, Diallo made it clear that he would choose a school with his biggest deciding factor being pt. The comments made me think he was st. john's bound. At that time the recruiting class was looking dire and its possible Self gave him some sort of an informal guarantee because Diallo still chose KU knowing what the historical trend has been for others similarly ranked to him (Embiid, Cliff, Oubre).

@elpoyo Right. You are free to state your opinions. You just run the risk of getting them refuted when they are factually incorrect; and you run the risk of engaging a discussion on opinions when others disagree. We all run that risk when we start posting.

I just think your initial post on Bragg perhaps did not reflect the opinion you stated in later posts. No worries.

Keep posting. We really aren't "all sunshine over here."

I've never been lumped in with the sunshine group I don't think. But I'm good with that for a change.

Regarding the original heading, GRADING THIS CLASS, I am not inclined to offer a 10 until I see some super play from our current recruits and transfer. That said, if we had gotten no one but Diallo and Colby, I would have awarded us an 8. Bragg and Vick kick us up to a 9. That ranks quite well alongside our returning veterans, whom I rank as 8.5. Hope springs eternal...regardless of el poyo's muddled cloudbursts.

@HighEliteMajor

I think you are right. I hope you are wrong.

Self has too often leaned on experience over talent. As others have said, I hope that he has learned from that. Lucas and Traylor are not as good at basketball as Diallo and Bragg. That doesn't mean that they should never play, but it does mean that if someone has to play a minimal amount of minutes between Ellis, Diallo, Lucas, Bragg and Traylor, it should be Lucas or Traylor because they are the least talented among that group.

My worry with Svi is that his ballhandling was not good last year due to his lack of strength. He seems to have corrected the lack of strength issue, but has that had an unintended consequence (lost shot fluidity, loss of quickness). Sometimes putting on muscle is great. Other times it just puts tank armor on a Ferrari. Doesn't accelerate anymore and can't corner worth a darn. Not saying this happened to Svi. We don't know. I'm just monitoring that as closely as I am monitoring the Greene hip situation.

@justanotherfan Here's why Self has always preferred experience over talent at least early in the season. His explanation for why Cliff didn't start sooner was basically because Cliff was foul prone and he rather have Cliff pick up 2 fouls later in the half than 2 minutes into the game and sit for 18. It was the same deal with Embiid as well. He didn't start until he could prove he could play more than a couple of minutes without picking up 2 quick fouls. It'll likely be the same deal with Lucas and Diallo this year. Landen knows how to play defense without fouling immediately and Diallo likely doesn't. We'll probably see Diallo move into the starting line up sometime around the 10 game mark this season and hopefully sooner.

I also wouldn't worry at all about the muscle Svi is putting on. He was listed at about 180 lbs. last year if I remember correctly, that's just skinny for anyone his size. A player his height should be in the 205-210 range at his age and position. He'll be stronger this year, but he's still got another year or two to go before he reaches his ideal playing weight and he has one of the best in the business at identifying an ideal playing weight that doesn't compromise ability. He'll be just fine in that department.

@Texas-Hawk-10

I agree in theory that Self doesn't want his young guys getting into quick foul trouble, but the problem is that you aren't getting any more time out of them either way.

Let's say that a guy doesn't start because you are worried that he will foul early in the game and end up on the bench. So you sit him until after the first TV timeout and he checks in with about 15 minutes to go in the half. He has already missed the first 5 minutes, but he has zero fouls. He picks up two fouls before the next TV timeout and has to come back to the bench. You got three minutes out of him.

A better solution is just to play the guy and let him adapt on the floor. If that means he fouls out against Northeastern State, that's fine by me. I'd rather him learn against those guys so he's available against Texas and Oklahoma than try and ease him in.

In college hoops, the easiest opponents are going to be at the beginning of the schedule, in the first 10-12 games. I'd rather Diallo foul out or miss the last 17 minutes of the first half against those guys than have him gone against Texas when we really need him. JMO.

@justanotherfan The thought process on not starting a foul prone player right away is that if you wait, they can see how the game is being officiated first and then determine how they can play from there..

@justanotherfan @Texas-Hawk-10

And it allows the player to get in a rhythm. If you were to get two early fouls and sit for 17 minutes then halftime you have no flow as to how the game is going anymore. But, if you wait and let them play the next 5 minutes, they can get a feel for the game and come out ready to go in the second half.

@Texas-Hawk-10
I agree with you on the 15 pounds of muscle-at 17 his body is just maturing and he was thin to start with. I am happy about it-that was the plan. I'd venture to say if he had a twin brother who wasn't a jock the kid would naturally gain some weight (not 15 #) and muscle purely from increased testosterone kids experience at that age.

Cliffs biggest problem was he didn't want to take any responsibility for his actions and he was a mamas boy! I bet his mom interfered with his relationship with HCBS and held him back more than anything. I remember how much HCBS talked about the Morris twins mom and how she stayed in KS to help Robinson with his sister his last year at KU. I never heard Self talk about Cliffs mom once?

As a coach you don't need any outside influences conflicting what you are trying to instill in the kids you are trying to make men out of! I believe the reason Cliffs minutes were minimal is because HCBS had more than he could stand from Cliff and his mom. She will be the reason he never makes in in the NBA. She has already done plenty of damage but I don't think she is done! Moms that continually make excuses for their children produce piss poor adults that usually end up behind bars or dead!

@Statmachine

I think that may be a bit harsh unless you have some pretty significant evidence of something beyond the loan, etc. Saying that Cliff's mom is "an outside influence" isn't really fair. She's his mother. She's not an agent. She's not a runner. She's not some Johnny come lately or a hanger on. She's his mother.

I know next to nothing about her other than this whole loan thing. Saying that she interfered with Self and will be the reason he doesn't make the NBA is a huge leap given the limited facts we have, unless you know more than what has been in the public view. Not saying that you need to divulge if you do, because I believe everyone is entitled to privacy, even great athletes. But making a blanket statement like that really isn't fair to Cliff or his family.

@justanotherfan She might as well be his agent or runner. She is already cashing in on his earnings. He had a full ride, food, stipends, housing, clothes, etc. Who benefited most from the loan that was taken out on his future earnings? AND if I posted the things he has on FB, twitter, and conducted myself during interviews the way he has my mom would kick my butt! Its just my view on the situation harsh or not.

@Statmachine you see cliffs new "baby"?

@Texas-Hawk-10

Embiid did have a future NBA player in front of him when he came in so his situation is different from Diallo's. Diallo doesn't have a future NBA Center in his way.

I think with Self this year, he's going to role with his most talented team. No question Diallo will have to adjust as all freshman do, but if we all agree that Diallo is an upgrade to Lucas why would you sit him. Conventional wisdom from Self says he sits early, I'm hunching he plays Diallo because he knows how talented this kid could be. No reason to baby him.

@Statmachine

I think your "mom comments" concerning Cliff's mom sound harsh... but that doesn't mean what you said is not true!

I think a lot of parents have totally screwed over their kids by getting too involved in their activities.

If I can think of parents I would consider correct in how they remained supportive of their athletic children I would look at Andrew Wiggins' parents. They seemed to be there for him and offer him advice from their experience, but in the end, they instilled responsibilities in Andrew to make his own decisions and they weren't fiddling around with Self too much to try to influence to meet their desires... an often very selfish attitude parents can have!

I don't know if Cliff is a "momma's boy" but if he is and he lets her continue to influence his future, he is in trouble. This is HIS future and he is supposed to be entering manhood and taking some responsibility for himself.

The more I write about this, the more your comments sound less harsh about Cliff's mom. I like to remain respectful about anyone's parents because it feels like prying.... so my statement isn't about Cliff's mom as much as it is about parents of athletic children.

@Crimsonorblue22 No I haven't seen the new baby, but I bet that wasn't his fault either? Sorry guys I just think Cliff's attitude and behavior is pretty poor for someone that has been blessed like he has.

@drgnslayr Cliffs moma moved close to KU to be with her son. Now I don't know if she had a 9to5 but If I were a betting man I would bet she did not have a JOB during her short stay. Who do you think paid for that?

!image.jpg ↗

@Statmachine

I don't know... maybe borrowed money? ;-)

@Crimsonorblue22

That "baby" seems to be parked in a nice residential area. Is there more to the "baby" story? Like a sweet-azz crib?

How many in here see Cliff's future as being financially sound?

I'm not trying to address this with any racial tone. There are great examples of financially sound athletes in all races. But there seems to be a push in Cliff's life to buy goodies as fast as possible... and perhaps it is more than just Cliff wanting goodies...

I know they have 7 kids so where are they if she's in Lawrence? I wondered about that house too. Even thought he might be joking. How dumb can one be?

@drgnslayr

Many agents will "advance" money to clients and will get paid when the contract goes through. However, considering that Cliff does not have a contract as of yet, it looks like a risky proposition. As far as the ca,r and as cars go for pro-athletes, this is not really not that extravagant.

@Statmachine You are assuming a laundry list of characteristics about Mom that I'm not convinced of. I personally think if the truth were known, Mom was an accomplice to Cliff's plan to cash in sooner than later. I simply refuse to believe any lending organization would loan a nickel on somebody else's money w/o getting some form of commitment from the bread winner. I doubt Cliff's mom had the wherewithal to put something like that together w/o help from her son, who obviously knew a lot more than he's letting on...imho. The villain here isn't Mom...it's Cliff. Mom helped with the money laundering, for sure, but I think this is 100% Cliff's baby. Just my opinion, fwiw.

@KUSTEVE You're probably right but my mom would have NEVER let something like this jeopardize my extremely bright future.

@JayHawkFanToo

It is extravagant if he doesn't get a contract. And I wonder if there is a house involved, too. The car is parked in front of what appears to be a pretty nice house. It is unlikely he gets a contract going in the second round. He'll be headed to Dead-League where players go to die and get paid essentially the same wage McDonald's employees make. This is likely the scenario for Cliff. I hope he breaks through..but he shouldn't be buying anything yet on future earnings that are a total 50/50 shot of coming through.

Cliff already made a huge error in judgment that is going to cost him a fortune (most likely) regarding getting a hold of some quick cash. That is the basis of why I think he is in for hardship ahead. We can blame his mom... but I'm not going to do that. Cliff is the one that had to step up and be responsible.

@drgnslayr

Cliff and family have shown in spades that they don't have the judgment to make decisions that will pay in the future and are mostly thinking on the here and now. A really bad combination for player whose future status is pretty much in limbo.

@Statmachine No doubt. This was obviously a lottery ticket moment for the whole family.

All I know this is a sad, sad story!