🏀 KuBuckets Archive

I can't think of one, except maybe Bo Ryan.

Coach K? Rat Man? I don't think so. Look at Coach K's record, when he is short on talent and long on injuries. Look at that 2006 season: 22-11, 8-8 in conference, 6th place!!!! No, the Rat Man needs to hold all the aces simply to finish second in his conference on a consistent basis. Since 2007, the Rat Man even with his great run of talent has only won the ACC once! With last years KU team the Rat Man would have been lucky to go .250 down the stretch.

Hmm, who else could have won a conference title with Landen Lucas and Jamari Traylor at the 5, and often on the floor together, when Perry Ellis was resting, injured, or trying to breath with his nose out the back of his head? Let me think. Nothing is coming to me yet.

Wait! What about Cal? No, Cal can't even win a ring with a 10 man stack. How did Cal do in his down season at Memphis? Remember back in 2004-05 when Dubya was starting to get over the glow of Mission Accomplished and Cal's pipeline ran out of helium to keep it clean? Cal went 22-16, 9-7 in Conference USA and finished tied for 6th in what was then a conference full of cupcakes. And remember what happened to Cal's early UK stack when Noels blew the knee? Not pretty. NIT. One and out in the tournament of also rans. Cal with Self's KU team last year would have been like giving a guy an unloaded derringer that only was trained to pull the lanyard on a howitzer! Cal with last year's KU team = goose egg down the stretch.

Fred? Oh, puhlease!!!!! Fred was copying Self down the stretch of last season and planning to flee D1 after only five seasons. Fred was 3-13 his first season. Fred finished 12th back when the B12 really had 12 teams. Fred finished 3rd, 4th, 3rd and 2rd. Fred with last year's KU team with the hole in the middle and the plague of injuries? Fred couldn't even beat last year's team for the title. How the hell could he have coached it to a title? Fred would have been .250 down the stretch at best with last year's KU team. At the very best.

Slick Rick? Rick has won exactly 2 titles in 12 flipping season in the Big East over the course of it going from a great conference to circling the drain. Rick with last year's KU team? Hmmm. In Rick's two down years, Rick finished 11th and 7h in his conference. The year he finished seventh, however, he did dream walk his way to the Final Four. Let's be charitable to another adidas brother, and say he might have either finished last with last year's KU team, or he might have finished mid pack and made a miracle run to the Final Four, but either way, he would not have won a conference title AND finished as well as .500 down the stretch.

How about Johnny Jones and Cuonzo Martin, the two .564 to .600 mediocrities to get medium stacks in recruiting this past season? How would these two mediocrities have done rotating Landen Lucas and Jamari Traylor at the 5 down the stretch, when both Landen AND flipping Jamari were injured. And Oubre was injured. And Greene was operable. And Svi could not get over a pick or hit a trey. And Devonte got nicked up. And Perry got knocked out. Would Jones and Martin have gone .500 down the stretch, won a conference title, and won one game in the Madness?

NOT. A. FLIPPING. CHANCE.

What about Ratso Izzo? Well, think 2005, 2006, and 2010 with Ratso. He was .500 in conference those seasons and finished 6th, 7h and 4th respectively. Hmmm. There is a chance Ratso could have finished .500 overall in conference and finished 5th, or 6th, I suppose, based on his record. But go .500 down the stretch with all the KU injuries and the rotation of Landen and Jamari playing injured no less? Oh, man, I gotta think Ratso would have handed out brass knuckles and would have gone .250 down the stretch at the very best.

Self is a genius.

Bad Ball was a stroke of genius.

LET ME REPEAT: SELF WON A CONFERENCE TITLE WITH LANDEN LUCAS AND JAMARI TRAYLOR AT THE 5 PLAYING INJURED DOWN THE STRETCH.

And board rats are getting hives about the possibility he might play BAD BALL again?

Earth to board rats, come in board rats...if Self thinks we ought to play BAD BALL, or even BAD MITTEN, just nod and say okay, coach.

The guy is .82 overall in 11 years at KU, WHILE FIGHTING AN APPARENT TALENT EMBARGO THE LAST FEW SEASONS.

The guy just won the WUG with Landen Lucas, Jamari Traylor and Hunter Mickelson as his 5s! He won the WUG with Diallo, Svi, Greene and Devonte not even playing!!!!

The absolute last thing anyone needs to worry about is Self's choices about offensive schemes. The guy knows what the hell he is doing for sure.

What we all need to be focused on and engage in changing is this ridiculously asymmetric talent distribution system that is keeping the best coach in basketball from signing his justifiable share of the top talent each year, so that he could win about ten straight rings.

Rock Chalk!!!!!

@jaybate-1.0 I agree with you, I love Bill Self and the job he's doing. What do you think about Tom Izzo? Think he could've done it?

@jaybate-1.0

Izzo is the only guy in that list that doesn't have to have a complete stack in order to win. No one builds a chip like Izzo. No one.

@dylans and @drgnslayr

I covered Ratso Izzo late in my post above, and I realize sometimes board rats may not have made it to the end. :-) To wit: I will requote and expand just a bit on Ratso.

"What about Ratso Izzo? Well, think 2005, 2006, and 2010 with Ratso. He was .500 in conference those seasons and finished 6th, 7h and 4th respectively. Hmmm. There is a chance Ratso could have finished .500 overall in conference and finished 5th, or 6th, I suppose, based on his record. But go .500 down the stretch with all the KU injuries and the rotation of Landen and Jamari playing injured no less? Oh, man, I gotta think Ratso would have handed out brass knuckles and would have gone .250 down the stretch at the very best."

Izzo's capacity to get it done appears to depend heavily on officiating trends.

During periods of his career and times of the season, when referees will let Izzo's guys use the brass knuckles and tire irons end to end for 40 minutes, there is no question that Izzo and his teams are very tough to beat and that he can get by with two 5-stars and some pulling guards. Izzo appears to be the one guy outside the Carolina and Okie Baller Mafia (Iba, Hansen, Dean, Larry, and Eddie) that Self has really studied hard and borrowed considerablely from and continues to measure his team's "toughness" against year in and year out. He came up against Izzo on a regular basis up at Illinois and Izzo apparently impressed him.

Regardless, being from the populous state of Michigan, and being a Nike program, Ratso seems USUALLY to get two draft choice types in his starting rotation and sometimes more. I believe this season he will have more domestic five stars on his roster than Self, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. I have been counting Izzo as a hold out against Big Shoe stacking, despite being a Nike program, until last season; this season he appears to have decided that if you cannot beat this thing, then join it.

That's the overview on Izzo and Self's apparent respect for him.

But Izzo's teams struggle in the call it close seasons, and in the games where the refs call it close, far more than Self's do--at least that's the recall of my necessarily biased and typically selective human memory.

So: my final analysis regarding Izzo and last year's KU team is that if the refs were letting them play, he might have equalled what Self did down the stretch...maybe. But without the brass knuckles and tire irons? Heck, Izzo with last year's KU team might have goose egged that stretch run. Izzo is flat out the best at butcher ball, since Bob Huggins cleaned up his act after his rogue UCinn years. But take butcher ball away from Ratso, and he is Minnie Mouse and he knows it. And his record shows it. His W&L statement plots out as a bar graph charting the years the refs are "letting'em play" with tire irons and brass knuckles and the seasons when the refs are trying to tighten things up. Ratso wins big when its rough. Minnie comes out .500 in conference when whistles are being blown reasonably.

@jaybate-1.0 Bo Ryan and Tony Bennett would have. Bo Ryan never finished worse than 4th in the Big 10 playing Bad Ball with less talent than Self. Tony Bennett freaking got Washington State to the NCAA tournament and has UVA rolling right now with Bad Ball. Those two have to be better at Bad Ball than anybody else because they rarely have the talent to outrun elite caliber teams.

This is a KU team that should not play Bad Ball though. KU can have multiple ball handlers on the court at all times that negates the need to use Bad Ball as the primary offense this year. Running it on occasion to mix up the looks between, Bad Ball, High-low, and the freestyle offense that Self allowed the team to run in Korea.

@Texas-Hawk-10

Bo maybe. But even Bo never strung together 11 consecutive titles did he? No. And when did Bo ACTUALLY win a B1G title with as many injuries, operables, plus a post rotation equivalent to an injured Landen and injured Jamari, and with his best player as in Wayne Selden, unable to produce for an entire season?

Answer: NEVER. Bo has had to have most of his guys pretty healthy to win the few titles he has won. And while he has had many seasons where his post men are comparable to Landen and Jamari in talent, he has never won spit when both his modestly talented centers were playing on one leg a piece.

Tony Bennett? Maybe the singer Tony Bennett. That guy can do anything he tries. Best pipes in the business. Single handedly has saved the Great American Popular Song that Sinatra shepherded for awhile and that rock and roll turned its back on. Paints brilliantly. Sings duets so brilliantly that he can bring out something good in Elvis Flipping Costello. Turns screamers like Lady GaGa into ladies with class. Reveals to a nation grown too coarse and frankly vulgar to appreciate Great American jazz singing and scat that Dianne Krall is reigning women of jazz good enough to carry the torch through this dark age for the next generation. That Tony Bennett might have left his flipping pumper in San Francisco and his brushes in Manhattan and come to Mt. Oread and found a way to do better than .500 down the stretch last season, but Dick Bennett's kid in Charlottesville?

You're kidding me, right?

What is it with American memory these days, eh?

At Washington State, Tony Bennett finished 2rd, 3rd and 7th in the girlie man Pac Ten. Talk about building down! His last team at Washington State--before he blatantly bailed the burning building--was 17-16 and 8-10 in conference. He went out in the first round of the NIT ferchrisssakes.

At Virginia? Tony Bennett finished 9th, 7th, 4th, and 4th, during the years before he was some how mysteriously able to land draft choice talent in bucket loads and UNC was apparently targeted for regime change in shoe wars and Roy had both health problems and regime change to distract him from beating the spit out of Tony's short stack.

The only thing Tony Bennett has really distinguished himself at, so far, is two straight ACC titles during the time Roy was coaching with both hands tied behind his back, Rick Pitino admitted to agents and agent runners biasing talent distribution, Sleepy Jim Boeheim got caught running a pirate program, and Coach Consonants was getting so old (and perhaps demented?) that he could not win a conference title last season with a 9-stack, and had grown so myopic that he was depending on Jeff "I Can't Win Cheating at OU" Capel for in game coaching advise about a NINE stack and LOSING a conference title!!!!!!!!!! Note: Coach K apparently finally upped the aricept in the Madness and just quit listening to Capel, and quit coaching himself, and let his 9 stack win it by themselves.

Tony Bennett could have actually lost in the first round of the NIT with Self's team last season.

OH. MY. GAWD.

Help me, help me, help me, I think I am going insane.

Make it stop, Basketball God. MAKE IT STOP.

:-)

Oh, and the incredible son of Dick did have to have 8 guys on his roster 6-8 or taller last season and one of the five most talented rosters (dare we call it a stack?) to be outcoached in the third round of the NCAA.

Let me put TB (shall we nickname him Tuberculosis? No, some folks are really suffering from that damned disease still) in vocabulario practical: he has never won a title in D1 with a team as banged up as KU last season, nor has he won a title with centers of the quality of Landen Lucas and Jamari Traylor, much less with them playing injured down the stretch. NOR HAS HE EVER DONE ANYTHING TO SUGGEST THAT HE POSSIBLY COULD HAVE.

Tony Bennett is flatly the MOST overrated coaching America.

The only coaches currently with a strong shot as unseating him are Cuonzo Martin and Johnny Jones, if they win conference titles with their stacks this season.

P.S.: I guess a case could be made for Shaka Smart BEING AS OVERRATED AS SON OF DICK.

@Texas-Hawk-10

Seriously, I agree with you that Tony Bennett is a fine young coach.

But the question was: what coach could have equalled or exceeded what Self did down the stretch last season with what remained of last year's team down the stretch?

There just is no evidence in his record to date that Tony could have come close to handling the adversity Self faced last season remotely as well as Self did.

None.

Some will point to Justin Anderson's broken finger on his shooting hand as some adversity last season, but come on, Self had to start Landen Lucas and Jamari Traylor at center all season and then play them injured down the stretch, plus KU's version of Anderson, Wayne Selden, never played or contributed consistently on offense beginning, middle, or end and was often a flipping detriment to the team, because of wavering concentration ALL season. By comparison, Tony had an injury cake walk with probably his most talented team ever last season compared to Self laboring with one of his least talented, and most injured teams in his KU tenure. And Self just went out and produced a rabbit from a fez the size of a thimble.

It is easy to underrate what Self is doing, because the apparent talent embargo is making sure he is not a serious threat to win a ring as "A Coach in the Time of Petro Stacks," as Gabriel Garcia Marquez might title a novel about this era-- were he a basketball fan and were he inspired to write one about the greatest game ever invented.

@jaybate-1.0 I agree I wouldn't want another coach at KU. I feel Bill is the man. That being said, didn't Izzo make the final four last season with an inferior team to KU? I'd hate to cut the short man shorter.

Just saying he's second on my list.

@dylans

It is an interesting point as to whether Izzo had better cards than Self last season.

At the start of last season, before Cliff was apparently marginalized in anticipation of his NCAA investigation issues, back when people thought he might be a dominant D1 big man his first season, and back before it became apparent that Oubre had a bum wheel from the start of the season that repaired briefly and then blew out down the stretch, I would have argued that Self had the better cards.

But of course Cliff at his peak rarely played more than 20 mpg and averaged 17 for the season and never dominated his own shadow.

And Kelly? Well, when he was good, he was very, VERY good in the middle third of the season, but for 2/3s of the season he was either a no show early, or he was a decoy down the stretch run.

Add in the operables, walking wounded, and injured players like Lucas and Traylor that were unranked projects that many years would not even have been given scholarships, much less be being counted on as starters, and I have to say that Izzo had a better cards most of the season, and by the end of the season, it wasn't even close. Izzo hand could have taken Self's hand 7 out of 1o games. KU was just a shell of itself by the end.

Archie Miller. Last season he dismissed two players in December leaving him with 6 scholarship players, none taller than 6'-6" and still managed to finish second in the A10 and made it to the third round of the NCAA after having to pl;ay in the first round play-in game.

The year before he took Dayton to the Elite 8 after beating ranked Ohio State, Syracuse and Stanford...yes, that Stanford that beat KU, before finally losing to top ranked Florida. Archie Miller is one of the better up-and-coming coaches in the country.

@JayHawkFanToo

Point made. He finished second in the A-10.

Stumpy's kid brother will definitely have something to crow about when he wins, say, 7 conference titles in a row and a ring.

@jaybate-1.0

He finished above .500 with only 6 scholarship players, none over 6'-6" - down the stretch - and advanced farther than KU the previous season (beat the team that eliminated KU) and as far as KU last season...all of that with teams with considerably less the talent than KU. The question was not about winning multiple or even one season conference or national titles, but about finishing above .500 with the team Self had. I cited one coach and you don't agree...that is fine with me.

Gregg Marshall.

@JReyn are you joking or serious, just asking?

@Crimsonorblue22 Of course I'm serious. Do you think WSU had a better team talent-wise than KU down the stretch?

@JReyn no, but Perry was not back from knee injury. Plus the bloody nose. WSU kids play hard, not sure it's 'cause of their coach though.

@Crimsonorblue22 I'm not talking about the head to head matchup. Could Marshall have done as much with the KU roster Self had down the stretch? Hell yes. (He did more with less of a team)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a Marshall fan. I just think 3/5 of KU's subs were better than WSU's starters.

There is a level of hubris that transcends reality once you get outside of Kansas regarding Kansas Basketball. Listing Coach K, Cal, Froiberg, Pitino, and a couple nutpicks of Martin and Jones who might have failed to achieve what Self did last year is ridiculous. Plenty of coaches did a lot more with less talent than Lucas and Traylor playing significant minutes.

If you want to blame it on injuries, I'd say Self was kind of willingly blind in that regard too. Greene OBVIOUSLY shouldn't have been playing. He contributed jack squat down the stretch, and Self never once pulled him aside and said, "Hey, dude, your shot is crap and you can't slide to the left or right. Something hurting?" Would another coach have noticed that and played Svi more? Who knows.

@JReyn the BG is puzzling w/a sports dr sitting on the bench.

@JayHawkFanToo

It is fine not to agree and I really do like your posts much of the time, whether I agree with them or not. Because we have our spats from time to time I make a special effort to upvote your posts to let you know I think they are worthy and to let you know I am grateful to have you here. And you are right that Archie IS a maybe. But he has a way to go in my mind to prove himself capable of doing what Self did in the Big 12. Heck Self went to the National Finals with five players and Conner Teahan. Let's see Archie do that!!!

But here is something else. I am pretty confident that Archie would have a ring, maybe two, with Stumpy's stacks at UA. That is how much better I think Archie is than Stumpy.

@jaybate-1.0 Well, I'm not savvy enough about other coaches to feel comfortable in selecting someone who could have taken last year's Jayhawk squad to .500 or better down the stretch. But if there IS a coach out there who could have done so, I'm wagering that he would have leaned much more than did BIll Self on Hunter Mickelson, esp. after Perry's leg injury. I think that Self might really have missed the presence of D. Manning and J Dooley after midFeb. last season, heady guys to help him untangle the scramble. As for other coaches, I tend to admire the work of Bo Ryan and Gregg Marshall. I know that I am opening myself up for a heavy barrage of opposing fire, but at this very moment, if Self should depart, I would opt for Marshall to become a finalist for the search committee to consider. The guy is a work horse, and I like the way his kids play. He probably would never garner the fan love and admiration that Roy and Bill have earned. But he would win.

@JReyn

I forgot about Marsha. Marsha possibly could have done it, IF they would have given him carte blanche to have Van Vleet punk the opposing team's top player in every game down the stretch of last season's KU stretch run. I am not sure the refs would have let him though. What do you think?

Without the carte blanche, not a chance.

@JReyn said:

Would another coach have noticed that and played Svi more? Who knows.

I do.

I bet a lot of folks do, too.

Another coach would have played Svi more than one-legged, operable BG, if Svi could have guarded his own shadow over a pick, and hit the broad side of a blimp hangar, as a 17 year old refugee from a war zone half a world away likely with some of his family in harm's way.

Heck, even Self would have played Svi more. He tried to start the kid early. That was a bomb.

Svi was clearly a year away physically, emotionally and probably linguistically.

And BG was what there was.

It wasn't like Conner Frankamp was available; like Conner hadn't transferred, when Self had said he had intended to start him some and play him in the rotation.

It wasn't like Selden was rockin' the trey at a higher percentage than one-legged, operable Brannen, right?

It wasn't like Self didn't need to use Devonte to spell Frank, even though Devonte intermittently would get speeded up and down the stretch got nicked up himself trying fill at 2 and 3 on top of backing up Frank.

I don't know.

Does Self really have trouble "noticing" viable players?

Or is it just that some fans think some players are viable that really aren't...yet?

In my experience the last five years or so, every time a guy sits a season after stinking up the floor early, and folks start saying that the guy could have played if Self had just given him enough PT, then the next season rolls around and the guy comes out and exposes exactly the reason Self didn't play him the previous season.

@REHawk

Eh, no.

Not Marsha.

I like your'thoughts of Bo!

@REHawk You definitely have to admire Marshall's record. But to me there is something off about him... He has a very good career record of .715 but he has done it all at the mid-major level. And he has been successful at that level now for 17 years. Why has he never gotten a job at a major program? I can't decide. He should have been considered and up and coming coach while at Winthrop. But yet, he moves to Witchita State. A near lateral move. Why? I can't decide if I respect it because of loyalty to a school or not. The skeptic in me says that there is something else. If I were to guess it would be the leverage to take pay raises after successful years while having lower expectations and thus not having to do near as much year in and year out.

@Kcmatt7 💰💰💰 Texas didn't want him. Kochs bros will keep him happy, his wife💪likes it there.

@Crimsonorblue22 Well him vs. Shaka is a no brainer. Would you want a 52 year old coach who has literally 0 experience with a major program or a 38 year old coach who has been an assistant for major programs and has made several deep tournament runs already?

@Kcmatt7 "Why has he (Marshall) never gotten a job at a major program?" He appears to be comfortable with the Koch backing in Wichita. And a top level Div. 1 program has not yet come calling. Those half dozen top jobs seem rarely to open for mid major coaches; and the guy is happy enough where he is, not to risk his reputation on a gamble for moving to a second tier major Div. 1 program. So, he is more than somewhat stranded...but probably not unhappily so. Will be interesting to follow his Tournament play once VanFleet and Baker are gone.

Marsha has apparently had D1 major talent at mid major WSU during his best seasons at Kochita State.

Kochita State looked more talented last season down the stretch than KU decimated by injury.

Van Vleet looked better than Frank and Devonte combined. He was closer to Nic Moore's level of that season.

Baker was certainly more capable than Selden by that time. Selden had not played as effectively as Baker all season. Selden could only get up to the rim on a dead run. He never shot, or handled, well all season. I would have taken Baker over Selden last season for sure. Selden was a former OAD battling back from a knee operation and God only knows what else. Baker was at his best.

Their 5s healthy looked better than our twin big man projects injured.

Pretty much anyone they put on the court was better than Oubre and his injured knee by the end.

Cliff wasn't even an option.

Perry wasn't sound even before the apparent assault.

BG was operable.

Where does ANYONE get the peculiar idea that hollowed out KU was more talented down the stretch than Kochita State, especially after Ellis was laid out? That contradicts the facts.

KU was seeded higher based on an RPI Built largely when when KU was not hollowed out.

And Marsha's great teams the two previous seasons? The guy had good players.

Can Marsha coach? Yes.

Has Marsha been doing it with second rate players? No.

Does anyone think Koch grade support can't get good players to WSU?

Marsha might have won a title with the talent Self had at the beginning of the season. He has done well when he has had good talent.

I don't recall that Marsha has ever turned around a moribund program as Self did ORU.

Has he?

Winthrop was a good small basketball school in the south, wasn't it? My recollection is that Marsha's mentor had run a good program at Winthrop, that Marsha was asked to continue. Marsha made it better just as Marsha improved already decent WSU. Could be wrong, but that's what I recall.

I don't recall Marsha coaching a hollowed out team that KU was down the stretch. And winning a title. Has he?

Ken Reeves and Norman Dale.

@tis4tim

Dale yes!

Reeves no! 😄

@JReyn

"If you want to blame it on injuries, I’d say Self was kind of willingly blind in that regard too. Greene OBVIOUSLY shouldn’t have been playing. He contributed jack squat down the stretch, and Self never once pulled him aside and said, “Hey, dude, your shot is crap and you can’t slide to the left or right. Something hurting?” Would another coach have noticed that and played Svi more? Who knows."

Good dig!

Or maybe since Bill sees the trey ball as "fool's gold" when BG started clinking the rim maybe deep down in Bill's head he was saying... "see.... fool's gold!"

Makes you wonder what would have happened if BG hadn't been hurt? What if he had stayed on his hot streak? Would Bill still have canned it for the hi/lo pathetic offense and Bad Ball? Would he have gone against his own words of discounting the trey and started counting on the trey?

I'm mixed about what I think he would do. Bill is a competitor... so I don't see him turning away lots of extra points.

Good points about Marsha. Even with us shorthanded, we still had the talent edge by a landslide. I know Baker was no Top 50 recruit out of Scott City.

@drgnslayr yeah, that's why coach kept playing him. Self wanted to prove he was right about fools gold?

@jaybate-1.0 said:

Dale yes!

Reeves no! 😄

I'm not so sure I agree with your assessment of Reeves. Sure he coached at Carver High, and had no college coaching experience, but his time with the Chicago Bulls gave him plenty of pro-experience to draw upon. And talk about adversity! In just his first season at Carver he dealt with Curtis Jackson's drinking problem, a low-level Shoe Co. representative (probably from Pony or perhaps Nike) wooing Coolidge with promises of riches, Reese's girlfriend's pregnancy, Ricky Gomez' gang affiliation, and Mario Pettrino's membership in an extra-curricular street fighting club to earn money. He also had a deaf kid on the team and lost a player to a congenital heart condition.

On the recruiting trail, Reeves operates on the street level, using his charm and skill to get the kids no one else can. He plucked Heyward right from the schoolyard and beat superstar hustler Bobby Magnum in a game of one-on-one to get him to play basketball at Carver. However, not all of his finds panned out. He lost one blue chip, Mack Wade, when he found out the kid was a group two functional illiterate and had been using his huge basketball upside to hide that secret.

Despite all the turmoil, Reeves gets his kids to buy in to the system and they win the city championship in his second season.

It's speculative at best to know how his coaching would translate at the D-1 level, but it seems like a paintball episode, a couple of clearinghouse issues and an injury here or there would be small potatoes compared to what Reeves dealt with at Carver.

@JReyn @Kcmatt7 @REHawk

Marshall is a real good coach. I understand that he is not liked here because some of the comments he made about KU but you need to look at things in context. He has assembled a "perfect storm" of players and he was/is desperately trying to leverage them to gain notoriety for the program and by extension, himself, and the best way to get to the "grown up" table (for those of you that still remember that expression) is to set up a series with KU (or even KSU) and big daddy KU is just not cooperating. He was doing what his fans base wants and expects him to do. The series has little upside a lot of downside for KU and the reverse is true for WSU, so it is understandable that KU would not agree; nothing wrong with that.

I really would not call Winthrop to WSU a nearly lateral move. At Winthrop Marshall turned the program completely around and took it to the NCAA for the first time and ended up going to the dance 7 of the 9 yeas he was there (1999-2007); since he left the went o the NCAA 2 more times, the last in 2010; no question the program went down hill after he left. At Winthrop, which I wold call a lower-major, he basically did as much as it can be done with a program that size and moved to Mid-Major WSU, a school with a lot more potential. It is definitely a logical move upwards that any coach with ambition and talent would make. Remember that in 2013 he turned down the USC job that ended up going to Andy Enfield of Florida Gulf Coast deep-run-in-the-NCAA fame, and by many account also tuned down the UCLA job; that was the year he took WSU to the Final Four. So it is not that he has not had opportunities to move up, he has indeed but he has chosen to stay at WSU. As I indicated before, after this season he loses the last 3 players of that "perfect storm" and will be interesting to see if he stays to rebuild, or now that "his" players are gone, he leaves as well.

If you can separate Marshall's WSU spokesman persona from Marshall the Coach, you see a very good coach, regardless of how you feel about him personally. Keep in mind that in the last 3 seasons he has advanced farther in the NCAA than KU and has actually beaten KU in the tournament; you just don't this unless you are a superior coach. The more good teams the state has the better it is for all...now, if KSU can get back to being decent team, it would only enhance the reputation of the state as basketball hotbed. I posted stats before that show Kansas as the only state with 2 or more Division I teams the send ALL OF THEM to the dance. Not bad for a small state.

To wrap it up, I would put Marshall in the list of coaches that "could" but not necessarily "would" have done better. A lot of writing for simple conclusion...:)

@jaybate-1.0

This is from Wikipedia:

Gregg Marshall era (1999-2007)

Gregg Marshall coached the Eagles from 1999–2007, engineering one of the great program turnarounds in NCAA history. He posted a 194-83 overall record during his nine-year tenure and remains Winthrop's all-time winningest coach. Marshall led the Eagles to a 104-24 conference record, six Big South season titles, and seven Big South tournament titles. Winthrop also appeared in seven NCAA Tournaments, posted six 20-win seasons, and averaged 21.5 victories per year during the Marshall Era.

So he did indeed turned around a moribund program, Winthrop is now known because of the success he had under Marshall, although is no longer nearly as good as it was under him and has not gone to the NCAA since 2010.

@JayHawkFanToo

Thanks for doing the leg work and clarifying that.

I stand corrected.

That is certainly a point for Marsha in my book.

Now, are there any teams that Marsha has coached at Winthrop, or WSU, that were similarly depleted by injury, transfer, and suspensions, to key players and rotation players, as Self's KU team was down the stretch?

If Marsha has in the past had a similarly depleted team to last year's KU team down the stretch and won a conference title and gone .500 or better down that stretch, then Marsha definitely should be considered as an example of another coach other than Self that could have done it, don't you agree?

As an aside, I am excited to learn that Marsha really did turn a program around, like Self did. It makes me respect Marsha more, and makes me want to beat him even more, and makes me wonder if we might be even more justified in punking one of his players next time the way Van Vleet punked Perry. I mean the guy is good. And the punking was unquestionably part of how he beat us. So: is there any reason not to punk one of his players the next meeting? Or maybe even punk him? What do you think?

To punk, or not to punk; that is the question.--Shakesbate 1.0

Rock Chalk!

@jaybate-1.0 My vote: PUNK!

The Coach--no hesitation.

Dear Bill,

Hire the Coach.

Best,

'bate 1.0

Just remember, Marsha did NOT recruit Baker! An ast. Coach told Marsha about him and they allowed him to walk on. What would WSU be w/out baker?

@JayHawkFanToo said:

If you can separate Marshall’s WSU spokesman persona from Marshall the Coach, you see a very good coach, regardless of how you feel about him personally.

First, how could anyone have any feelings about Coach Marsha personally unless they knew Coach Marsha personally? Not sure I follow this. I know I don't have any feelings about him personally. What feelings I have about him are shaped largely by him letting Van Vleet continue to play after elbow-sledge-hammering Perry Ellis' nose out the back of his head on national TV. It was bad enough that the refs did not eject Van Vleet from the game, but it was far worse that Coach Marsha did not sit Van Vleet for the rest of the game.

Second, why should we EVER separate the WSU spokesman persona from the Coach? Coach Marsha doesn't publicly separate them, does he? If he has, I would like to hear about it. If he doesn't, why would we? I mean, if Coach Marsha would come out and say something like, "Hey, when I am acting as WSU spokesman, well, I say a lot stupid fecal matter. Don't pay any attention to that. It has nothing to do with my coaching," well, then we would be obliged to separate the two sides of him, right? But he doesn't do that. Coach Marsha appears to comment related to KU and WSU as speaking as WSU Head Basketball Coach Greg Marsha.

When I look at WSU Head Basketball Coach Greg Marsha I see a coach that has won a lot games, baited Self about not scheduling WSU, and failed to remove Van Vleet for the rest of the game for elbow-sledge-hammering Perry Ellis in the nose on TV in an NCAA tourney game. Its all WSU Head Coach Greg Marsha.

If I were to break out Greg Marsha into WSU Head Basketball Coach, and then into WSU spokesman, I reckon I would then have to break him out into Greg Marsha, human being, that lacked the character to kick his own player out of the game for elbow-sledge-hammering an opposing player in the nose. Do you see what I am getting at here?

Would you really think it would be fair to Greg Marsha to break him out into a series of abstractions? Shouldn't we view him as a head coach, since that is all we have much knowledge of him as.

We don't know what Coach Marsha is like at home, or out partying. We don't know what his politics are. We don't know if he likes to hunt, or fish, or much else.

All we know is WSU Head Basketball Coach Greg Marsha.

I for one have no problem recognizing that WSU Head Basketball Coach Greg Marsha wins a lot of games, baits Coach Self about scheduling WSU, and wouldn't bench Van Vleet for elbow-sledge-hammering Perry Ellis in the nose. It seems easy to keep them all in my head simultaneously.

And I can do it without having any feelings about him personally either.

Rock Chalk!

@tis4tim

PHOF!

@jaybate-1.0 F&^^%$ H3LL Yeahh! Take no prisoners!!!! Machine guns down the ho chi mihn trail!

@tis4tim Wow, I like your knowledge of the Chicago public scene! I've more or less lost touch with Chicago hoops. I used to attend Proviso West tournament on trips home at Christmas, but it's been 4 or 5 years since I've been there. Don't know of the Reeves you're talking about. I love Chicago public league basketball, Nothing like it in the country in my opinion.

@jaybate-1.0

You are taking my comments out of context and making it way, way too complicated.

From Merriam-Webster

Full Definition of PERSONALLY

1: in person

2: as a person : in personality

3: for oneself : as far as oneself is concerned

4: in a personal manner

You can have feeling about person without knowing him/her personally. I never met John Wayne but I really like him as an actor. Pete Rose is perhaps my favorite player and I like him as player a lot...most Big Red Machine fans do; however, as an individual off the field he is by all accounts not very nice man and I just don't care for him personally (see definitions 3 and 4 above). We just had thread about the best player of all time and many member indicated that they do not like LeBron (I personally don't like him) but they still respect him as a player. How many of your sports idols have you met in person? probably not many but you like them anyway, even when you have no clue how they are off the filed/court. I could not care less about Michael Jackson the person but he was one terrific entertainer and composer.

See where I am going with this?

Many posters do not like Marshall personally (see definitions 3 and 4 above) for the things he said about KU, but they can still respect him as a coach. You don't have to like a person but you can still respect him/her professionally. I don't like Marshall personally (see definitions 3 and 4 above) but I think he is a very good coach and I respect hm as such. Enough said.

I never said anything about how Marshal is or isn't at home and I could not care less. This what I said:

"If you can separate Marshall’s WSU spokesman persona from Marshall the Coach.."

I was very clearly indicating two very specific situations, one his public persona as WSU spokesman and two, the coach. I just don't see any reason why this cannot be done, as I indicated above, we do it all the time in real life.

As far as VanVleet, this from from the ESPN account of the game:

"VanVleet was driving to the rim when his elbow caught Ellis' nose, sending the Wichita native sprawling to the floor. Red droplets started sliding down his chin, and Ellis retreated to the locker room. When he returned, he had wads of cotton stuffed up his nostrils."

There was no indication that it was an intentional, premeditated or flagrant foul; in fact, VanVleet was not even called for a foul. Why do you think that Marshall should have sat VanVleet when he was not even whistled for a foul? Can you think of a coach, any coach that has sat his starting PG or any other player for the rest of the game, ...while playing in the NCAA or any other game...for a non foul? or a foul? a hard foul? even a flagrant foul? I cannot think of one...Elijah Johnson was given a flagrant one for intentionally ringing Mitch McGary "bells" and Coach Self did not bench him, right? It just does not happen.

I think this topic has been discussed as much as it can be and we need to agree to disagree and move on.

@JayHawkFanToo

You don't have to convince me that Marsha is a great coach. He is a rare breed and able to do things few are capable of.

I don't even dislike him. What do Kansas fans expect him to do? Bow down to us? He is a competitor and I respect that because he is a dang good one! I'm still trying to find him on video saying "chickenhawk" and haven't found it yet. I listened to the long speech he gave at Koch Arena... still no chickenhawk. And even if he did say it, I could care less. I'm a man and people shouting names is part of life and doesn't bother me... it just makes them look foolish and childish. So if Marsha did do that then it was a childish move.

What bothered me about Marsha was him taking job offers when his team was still playing in March. That was very inconsiderate to his players and fans. He should have made a public statement that he isn't considering anything except advancing in March.

That doesn't mean I'm not sad when we lose to the Shocks. I get mad! I want a revenge game!

He punched us in the nose and I want to punch him back!

@drgnslayr

No argument from me. I have always said that he is doing what his fan base wants and expects him to do to get KU to agree to play WSU.

@drgnslayr I heard him say it. A friend of our family is a d1 ast coach and he told us a long time ago-before chickenhawk remark that Marsha is not respected by other coaches. IMO he's a jackass!

@JayHawkFanToo

Comments taken in context and with right amount of complexity as usual. Thanks!

"...he is doing what his fan base wants and expects him to do to get KU to agree to play WSU."--@JayHawkFanToo

WSU must be getting very disappointed with Marsha not getting Self to play the Wheat Static.

Go, Bill, go!!!!

Ignore hell out of the Wheat Static each regular season, then beat them early and often in the Madness!

@JayHawkFanToo said:

I think this topic has been discussed as much as it can be and we need to agree to disagree and move on.

Not even close to exhausted as a topic or you wouldn't be responding. 😄

@drgnslayr said:

What do Kansas fans expect him to do? Bow down to us?

Yes, and after that bend over. 😄

@drgnslayr said:

You don’t have to convince me that Marsha is a great coach. He is a rare breed and able to do things few are capable of.

I still need a ton of convincing. He is good at best till he wins a ring. Period.

@Crimsonorblue22 said:

@drgnslayr I heard him say it. A friend of our family is a d1 ast coach and he told us a long time ago-before chickenhawk remark that Marsha is not respected by other coaches. IMO he’s a jackass

Most interesting!

@jaybate-1.0 said:

@JayHawkFanToo said:

I think this topic has been discussed as much as it can be and we need to agree to disagree and move on.

Not even close to exhausted as a topic or you wouldn't be responding.

Ah, an appropriate and succinct reply. When @JayHawkFanToo plays pickup, he must have a special rule that he always gets the last shot.

@JayHawkFanToo said:

There was no indication that it was an intentional, premeditated or flagrant foul; in fact, VanVleet was not even called for a foul

Opining your honor! And quite unpersuasive opining.

And the Zapruder Film doesn't document that JFK got his brains blown out either!

Next, refs not calling a foul in this era hardly means there wasn't one, but of course you know this.

Yeeee hawww, now we are having some off season fun!

Wha

@JayHawkFanToo said:

Can you think of a coach, any coach that has sat his starting PG or any other player for the rest of the game, …while playing in the NCAA or any other game

Irrelevant.

Can you think of a valid reason why a coach should not pull a player for a game, as punishment for unsportsmanlike conduct? I cannot. Heck, they pull players for games for poor performance?

Can you recall another coach in the same tournament faced with one of his players appearing to wield his elbow at the nose of another defender in quite the way Van Vleet appeared to do to Ellis? I cannot. So: why would I expect to find another coach to have pulled another player for such a play as that appeared? I haven't seen an elbow appear to be wielded in that particular way before. It appeared extraordinary to me then and still seems so in recollection. Quite startling in first viewing and repugnant in replays.

Perhaps someone can post a feed of the elbow incident?

We could be up against a much worse coach than Marsha in Wichita.

I respect him a lot more than I do Cal, Stumpy Miller or Scott Drew. We could be losing half our players to Wichita because they have a dirt bag coach handing out Presidential Rolexs.

@JayHawkFanToo said:

Elijah Johnson was given a flagrant one for intentionally ringing Mitch McGary “bells” and Coach Self did not bench him, right? It just does not happen.

Irrelevant whether any one benched anyone for unsportsmanlike conduct last season, same as it is irrelevant whether anyone else other than benched anyone for improper loans. But you should know that.

Also irrelevant, because of invalid comparison. A nut punch is not remotely as dangerous to a victim as an elbow to the head. It would not make sense to compare an elbow to the face with a gunshot to the face either. Different levels of violence. Different situations and fitting responses. But you should know that.

But from what I could see, Self should have benched EJ, too. It's a mark against Self that he didn't. But Failing to bench Van Vleet for what he did to Ellis? REALLY BAD FORM on Marsha's part. Suspending him for the rest of the season might have even been a fitting disciplinary action.

And it is possible that by not disciplining Van Vleet for the contact Marsha has increased the long term risk of playing for WSU. Any coach and team that prepares for WSU now probably realizes that this sort of play by WSU players is apparently tolerated, so opposing teams must train specifically to self protect and retaliate for such plays, or perhaps even adopt pre-emtive doctrine. The next players injured BOTH on WSU and WSU OPPONENTS by this kind of play may to some extent be victims of both those referees and Marsha's apparent failure to address this issue constructively.

But you should know that.

@drgnslayr

Now that's a scary thought.

Marsha and Cal switch jobs.

Marsha at UK.

Cal with the Wheat Static.

Cal might not even HAVE practices at Wichita.

He might just have watch settings.

Auto-Howling!

@Red.Rooster

We are keeping you busy this morning!!!!!!!

We will all have to chip in to an @Red.Rooster fund in case of repetitive stress injury!!!!!

Rock Chalk!!!!

And hurry up Late Night!!!!!

@jaybate-1.0

YES !! I'm playing Catch-Up this morning. It's late in the game and I'm coming back!

Thanks for your thoughts JB !!

@JayHawkFanToo said:

Gregg Marshall coached the Eagles from 1999–2007, engineering one of the great program turnarounds in NCAA history.

I wonder if Marsha wrote that?

Or maybe one of his supporters?

It doesn't sound quite, ummm, objective to me. Does it to you?

194-83? That's .700. Hmmm. That's a good turnaround. But great? Wouldn't good fit a little better than Great?

Wouldn't calling Marsha a good coach rather than a great one fit a little better?

I know there have been a few great coaches that have not won rings, but we really can't tell how great those non-ring winners are until we see their careers beginning to end. We have to see how they stack up with the other great coaches that have not won rings. We have to gauge their lasting contributions to the game, their character, their positive impacts on the game, the respect they earn from their colleagues and so on. Marsha has coached 17 seasons and is 358-159; that is a .715 W&L statement. It is good. But great? And what lasting contributions and/or innovations has he made to the game? I really can't think of any, can you? Is he held in high esteem by the most respected of his fellow coaches? Has he made good enemies? You know. Do all the weasels dislike him?

And what is the context of his turnaround at Winthrop?

What was Winthrop's record the previous few seasons? Any idea. I looked and couldn't figure it out. You seem pretty good at ferreting this sort of thing out. Was Winthrop's coach before Marsha a hapless coach? Or had he built a modest foundation Marsha could take and run with? If there were no decent players to build on at Winthrop, how did Marsha get the good players there his first season, which was a fine 21-8 and 9-1 in conference? Just trying to ground our understanding and perceptions of Marsha in whatever reality may exist about him.

I want to know my opponent. :-)

@wissoxfan83 said:

Wow, I like your knowledge of the Chicago public scene! I’ve more or less lost touch with Chicago hoops. I used to attend Proviso West tournament on trips home at Christmas, but it’s been 4 or 5 years since I’ve been there. Don’t know of the Reeves you’re talking about. I love Chicago public league basketball, Nothing like it in the country in my opinion.

wissoxfan83: Ken Reeves is the name of the head coach of Carver High School on the old TV show The White Shadow, which ran from 1978-1981 or thereabouts. I was trying to be funny with my White Shadow/Hoosiers coach references as Jaybate didn't specify real or fictional coaches in his original thread. My family and I just cut our cable and got a Roku at Christmas, so I've been sifting through old shows from my youth and found The White Shadow on HuluPlus. I'm currently watching the final season, which is why I know so many of the plot lines. Anyway, sorry for the arcane reference. If you haven't seen the show, I'd recommend it.

@tis4tim Ah, I remember the show, but don't think I ever watched it! There is a Carver High in Chicago and thought you were referencing that! Lots of episodes on youtube I just saw so maybe I'll check it out.

@ParisHawk

The Marshall topic has been discussed ad-nauseum in this and other threads; people feel the way they do about Marshall one way or another, be that as a person or as coach, and neither is right or wrong, they are all personal opinions that we are all entitled to have.

If you read my posts on the subject, my view of Marshall is very clear and if someone else has a different opinion that is fine with me. I personally feel that additional posts on my part will not advance the discussion further as I have said all I wanted to say. If other posters feel that there is more discussion to be had and want to continue discussing Marshall, they are most welcomed to do so, and again, I have no problem whatsoever with that. Like I said. we agree to disagree and move on. to more interesting topics, preferably related to KU basketball.

@tis4tim

I did not catch the reference the first time around. That takes me back a lot of years. Good show with a good message. I remember some of the characters, Coolidge and Salami and I believe there was Hispanic player as well. If I recall correctly the High school setting was in South Central LA not Chicago, right?

@JayHawkFanToo oh, additional posts on your part only. I must have misunderstood, sorry.

@ParisHawk

Just explaining my position, not discussing Marshall. my other post on different subject all together.

@JayHawkFanToo

I was about 7 or 8 when that show originally aired and I hadn't watched it since, which is why I'm binge-watching right now.

Yes, Gomez was the Hispanic player and the setting was in LA. Ken Howard's character, coach Ken Reeves, played professionally for the Bulls before a knee injury ended his career at which time he is convinced by a buddy of his to move to LA and coach Carver High.

The show does have a good message. What strikes me about it is how all the different racial backgrounds meld together on the show. There's a lot of humor and a lot of rough-housing and everyone has problems, but ultimately everyone gets along. That's how I remember things when I was a kid. We all acted tough and made fun of each other, but we all cared about one another. It wasn't bullying, just kids being kids. Race just wasn't an issue. We all came from different backgrounds and some had more and others less, but none of that mattered. Today, things seem so splintered. Maybe I'm just old.

What also strikes me about the show is how many future Hollywood people got some of their earliest breaks with bit parts on the show. I've seen Liz Sheridan (Jerry Seinfeld's mom on the show), Dennis Haysbert (All-State spokesman and Cyrano in the film Major League) among others. Several big-time sports celebs like Bill Russell, Sparky Anderson, Rosie Grier and others made cameos from time to time. Even Salami (Mario Pettrino) was played by Timothy Van Patten, who is related to the late Dick Van Patten and went on to be a Hollywood producer. Yeah, the pacing is slow compared to today's shows, but it had a good moral thread running through it and they took on some pretty hefty social topics for its time. All in all a decent show.

@jaybate-1.0

"He is a rare breed and able to do things few are capable of."

Like having his hair cut in the dark and it still sparkles. Must be the slick gel!

[link text](

Sponsored by the LMJLC (Let's Make Jaybate Laugh Committee)

@drgnslayr

Working!

Serial howling!

I apologize for veering off the main topic, but I hope you will find this interesting. I asked the players last Friday what other college coach they would like to play for if they could no longer play for Coach Self.
Wayne, Frank, Jamari and Landen all said Hoiberg. Devonte said Huggins with Hoiberg second.

@kansas-oats smart guys! I read, think in kc gyms this past weekend, that self sat right in the middle of all the coaches and cal was off in a corner by himself. They went on to say that coach Self talked to or greeted about everyone there.

@Kcmatt7 Let's say this about Gregg Marshall (and I live near and grew up in Wichita, attended Newman, took a class at WSU, then went to KU for professional school)--> Marshall does what Bill Self did at mid-majors: play hard, play smart, at both ends of the floor, which when you have a jr+sr laden team, can upset some "name" schools. The BIGGEST difference between Self and Marshall is that Self is way more of a recruiter and charismatic persona than Marshall. Before Self won anything in 08, he got 2 classes worth of McDAAs and top 60 guys, which culminated in the 08Championship (the "jimmies and the joes" to augment the "x's and o's"). Marshall has NEVER proven to be such a recruiter, and he knows it. Matter of fact, his "hate" of KU because of the recruits we land is downright disgusting, as the Wu-shox fanbase has picked up on his sentiment. Which perfectly segues into my next point: The word charisma is often mentioned about Bill Self, and I've experienced it myself when he was telling a story in a small classroom. Charismatic has never been used to describe Gregg Marshall. Frankly, taking snipe shots at a fellow state school is not a charismatic thing to do...notice how Self always takes the high road in his public comments directed at (ANY) other program or coach?

UCLA did offer Marshall, but he turned down the $1.1mil offer, as with cost-of-living in LA, it would be a monetary lateral move, and he avoids the pressure-cooker of the once-fallen-royalty-program that is UCLA. Now we get to watch Steve Alford squirm under the lights of Pauley Pavilion. Now Marshall is earning $3.3mil for staying home, and trying to see if he can put together a string of MVC conf titles... (without the ability to recruit top30 guys). Maybe Gregg Marshall knows his charismatic limitations.

And make no mistake, it does take a certain amount of charisma/managerial skill to "get" your collection of top talent to actually buy-in to your style of ball. And once you get them to buy-in, and you somehow get them 2yrs of experience in system, you may have playstyle options that only top athleticism guys can give.

(Bill Self vs. Gregg Marshall: Decoded.)

@jaybate-1.0

Let's look at all the talent UVA has gotten compared to the great dearth of talent Coach Self and KU have gotten. If you discount Cliff, KU's average rankings of players drops all the way, gasp, to 47! Compared to UVA's average player ranking of 92.

!upload-38fdbb7f-b2f9-4454-9fb0-689fa8a09961 ↗

Now lets take a look at front court rankings. As you will see, KU leads over UVA in this category too, 86 vs 110.

!upload-b8cb0185-e78a-4852-86ff-429075759b14 ↗

Okay. UVA's strength of schedule sourced from Ken Pom last year was 27 vs KU's 2nd ranked schedule. UVA did win 5 additional games -- all accounted for by difference in strength in schedule?

When we compare each Coach's performance in the tournament last year (where it really matters) its a wash.

Your exuberance for Coach Self's performance is understandable but overstated. I am not claiming Tony Bennett is in the same league of Self (we need to see 10+ years of continued performances).

Narrative is fun but much more substantial with data and facts.

I don't have the time to parse the differences between the ACC and the Big12. Or the Big12's overall poor performance in the NCAA tournament. I also did not account for Siva being a top talent (all though unranked) who KU was able to land over UVA.

When UVA lands a top 25 player let me know -- compared to the six (6) KU has landed the past four years and the two (2) top 25 players they landed this year. Talent drought? Sure, compared to Duke or Kentucky but not UVA.

Draft choices?

UVA had one 1st round pick (and not a lottery pick at that) the last 4 years. And KU?

Next.

@ralster

Excellent take. Marshall had what I call the "perfect storm" of players; somehow he was able to put together classes with players that overachieved over several yeas and now, the last 3 are on their last year. How do you think he will do after the last players of the group leave after the upcoming season? I know they will continue to do well in the Missouri Valley but will they stay relevant at the National levels and will they continue to be a top 20 program?

@JayHawkFanToo They'll be consistently WSU. By that, I mean they will have an outstanding team for two or three years, then they will disappear for the next 30 years.

@ralster

Brilliant call on the "charisma factor" and right friggin' on!

Amazing... coaches all work their tails off. But one is far below another because he can not chill out and learn how to keep his personal emotions under control when needed. Notice I said... when needed. Bill has let them go a few times, sometimes intentionally to get the attention of his players, like a few years back at the conference tourney when he broke something at the scorer's table.

But there are plenty of stories about Marsha and his wife getting caught up in silly comments and actions. I understand, and respect, that Marsha came from a tough life to get where he is at. Bravo for him. But at a certain point he needs to stand back from himself and look for better pathways to get higher results. His coaching appears to be excellent, but some of his personal behaviors are holding him back.

I've always appreciated how Bill can keep his cool at the right time, and his ability to speak before a crowd and cameras is right on. He is one of the few coaches even Kansas has had that does not sometimes embarrass the fan base. Roy comes to mind, constantly making the wrong statement.

@mdm7eb

An average is one way to look at it.

But an average kind of ignores entirely what the players were able to contribute due to circumstances. The circumstances that prevent players from contributing can include injury not requiring operation, but sufficient to impair them from reaching their potential for the portion of the season that you say "matters." They can also include playing operable. They can also include players out for regulatory reasons. And they can include players that are for one reason or another unable to perform up to rotation standards and their ranking.

So: let's sum the number of players Self had that were able to play to their rank during the period of the season that you call the part "that matters" and compare that with UVA, shall we?

Let's drop out KU's injured and operables that could not possibly have played to their ranks, regardless of what coach had coached them, shall we?

Selden, Ellis, Traylor, Lucas, Greene, Oubre.

Then lets drop the guys that played so poorly they weren't in the rotation sufficiently to play up to any rank: Svi, Hunter, Cliff.

Let's see. Who does that leave Self?

Ah, yes, Frank Mason, Devonte Graham, and, um, well, uh, that's all.

So Bill gets a score of 2.

Now, I don't know the injury and under performance figures for UVA, but I recall them having all but maybe one of their 8 guys 6-8 or higher available. That means TB had 7 long guys.

And let's cut TB some slack here and say there was one more guy of some kind on the team that did not perform up to snuff.

That means TB 10 minus 2 =8.

Hmmmmm.

So Bill = 2.

TB = 8.

By the way, the higher score means you have more talent to work with than the guy with the lower score.

TB had vastly more talent to work with at the end of the season "when it matters."

You lose.

Next.

@mdm7eb said:

I am not claiming Tony Bennett is in the same league of Self (we need to see 10+ years of continued performances).

Well, of course, you aren't doing that, because you would be contradicting the facts, wouldn't you? Based on the data available it would be impossible to make a credible case that TB was better than Self now, or that he probably would be better at the end of both their careers.

Elementary.

@mdm7eb said:

Narrative is fun but much more substantial with data and facts.

Yes, it is and I am having a helluva a lot of fun exposing your foray into stats, which reminds me of Twain's "The Innocents Abroad".

@mdm7eb said:

I don’t have the time to parse the differences between the ACC and the Big12.

Why does your lack of time not surprise me?

This is kind of like playing "beat the beaver" at the video arcade with only one hole and one beaver.

Howling.

@mdm7eb said:

Now lets take a look at front court rankings. As you will see, KU leads over UVA in this category too, 86 vs 110.

See the 8-2 score above.

@JReyn

Of course last season was largely about injuries, one player too young to perform, and another player caught up in loan issues.

That isn't even disputable.

@jaybate-1.0

That's the best you can do?

"Bill Self had more talent because I said so. Bill Self is the best coach ever because you know duh?!"

The nice thing with stats and I will admit averages have problems. But my argument still stands if you looked at median, max or even standard deviation.

Like I said, narrative is fun. It is easy to argue (and in your own mind win) when you get to make up the facts.

Data is pesky like that, it does not really let you pick and chose you either have it or you don't.

I am actually sympathetic to your argument and you are maybe right (on the talent argument at the end of the season) -- but it is just a wild assertion.

But isn't that characteristic of most of the content you post on this site?

@mdm7eb

Remove

wadded

panties

from

region

between

glutes. 😀

Now that u r more comfortable and can cease swinging, you will have to tell me who taught you the thread destabilization tactic of quoting something I didn't say and attributing it to me?

HOWLING!

Here is what you quoted me as saying that you made up and put in quotes.

“Bill Self had more talent because I said so. Bill Self is the best coach ever because you know duh?!”--mdm7eb

Next.

@Crimsonorblue22

And now you are, too! 😀

Because I added a new post and deleted the one your post once spoke too! 😎