🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Guys & gals, can't leave my female buddette's out. - - Got a question., plus MY TAKE OF COURSE how silly.

This is basketball related, but just sitting her pondering, deals with the N.B.A. - - So in your past, who have you or did you consider one of the most under rated, under appreciated, who was that player or who has been that player in your opinion?

Now here is mine - just my opinion and we know my opinion is pure gold right? lol. Ok the player I felt like that really NEVER got the full credit that he was due? Was back with Michael Jordan. - Played with Jordan - - His name? - -glad you asked, his name is Scottie Pippen. I absolutely loved this guy, never got the credit he deserved in my opinion. Ya, Ya, I know Jordan was all that, he was mr world, and all that I get that, and not did-respecting Michael but Scottie - -ya he was everything, what ever you wanted he got it done. Wee all know Micheal was a scoring machine I get that - - But Scottie was a lot more, he scored, and scored well, get multiple rebounds, key rebounds, play the defense which is a rareity in the N.B.A except in play off time do it all - - yet you really never heard that much about Scottie, it was always Michael, Michael, Michael but as far as a COMPLETE ALL AROUND PLAYER I take Scottie, and it wasn't just a one game thing, he was like this game, after game, year after year.

Just looking back my friends passing time during our down week,Oh Ya Scottie was all that and a glass of milk. - -Ok. so let me hear ya, tell me I'm crazy, I'm a big boy I can take it - -not gonna change my mind though I mean Jumpin - - -Gee- - -Hossa - - Fats Scottie got as much done for that team as anybody - -I mean who was assisting Micheal all those years - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG MY FRIENDS

I understand your feelings for Scottie, but, should someone elected to the Hall of Fame be eligible for your underappreciated award? I think the public might have been less aware of him, but I don't know any further recognition he could have gotten from players, coaches, his own team, and the media.

From Wikipedia:

Considered one of the best small forwards of all time, Pippen was named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team eight consecutive times and the All-NBA First Team three times. He was a seven-time NBA All-Star and was the NBA All-Star Game MVP in 1994. He was named one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History during the 1996–97 season, and is one of four players to have his jersey retired by the Chicago Bulls (the others being Jerry Sloan, Bob Love, and Michael Jordan). He played a key role on both the 1992 Chicago Bulls Championship team and the 1996 Chicago Bulls Championship team which were selected as two of the Top 10 Teams in NBA History. His biography on the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame's website states, "The multidimensional Pippen ran the court like a point guard, attacked the boards like a power forward, and swished the nets like a shooting guard." During his 17-year career, he played 12 seasons with the Bulls, one with the Houston Rockets and four with the Portland Trail Blazers, making the postseason sixteen straight times.

Pippen is also the only player to have won an NBA title and Olympic gold medal in the same year twice (1992, 1996)......

Pippen is a two-time inductee into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (for his individual career, and as a member of the "Dream Team"), being inducted for both on August 13, 2010. On November 8, 2005, the Chicago Bulls retired his number #33, while his college, University of Central Arkansas, retired his number #33 on January 21, 2010 as well.

@jayballer54
I don't think you could find a Bulls fan on the planet that under-appreciated Pippen. And, he certainly got plenty of recognition:

7× NBA All-Star (1990, 1992–1997)

NBA All-Star Game MVP (1994)

3× All-NBA First Team (1994–1996)

2× All-NBA Second Team 1992, 1997

2× All-NBA Third Team (1993, 1998

8× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1992–1999)

2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1991, 2000)

NBA steals leader (1995)

NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

No. 33 retired by Chicago Bulls

Olympic Dream Team gold medal 1992

Olympic Dream Team II gold medal 1996

I would add that from the Bull's dynasty, Horace Grant was easily the most underrated and under-appreciated player. Hell, he might be one of the most under appreciated players of all time.

@DanR that's great - -but yet still ok, outside of Bulls fans who was the 1st person that people ALWAYS talked about when Chicago was playin - - Sure wasn't Scottie, he saved their ass multiple times but yet it's Michael, Michael, Michael -- nuff said. TRUE Chicago fans seen him daily BUT outside Chicago, you ask people what the 1st thing that came to mind when you mention the Bulls? - - -NOT SCOTTIE he saved Jordan's ass multiple times, Jordan was all about scoring liked to take time off on the other end seem it myself multiple times.

But this wasn't and isn't a thread that I'm trying to start any problems - -just passin time, and a subject I've had with other friends on in the past - -Plus I thank you for your info, everyone's info - - like I said it's just me no biggie, looking for conversation and responses. - - I hope nobody in here takes my thread the wrong way, just this old man passin time - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Here's a few of mine:

A.C. Green

Dennis Johnson

Bruce Bowen (yes he's recognized as a defensive specialist, but still not a household name)

Robert Horry

@jayballer54 My choice of underrated player would be Michael Cooper. Glue guy!

Incidentally, I like the discussion but I can't see why you are concerned if anybody would take it the wrong way--forums are ablaze over the years with fights over "Who is the Greatest of all time (the GOAT)?"

Totally legit to ask "Who is the greatest who wasn't recognized as such?" @DanR and I just pointed out that Pippen was not underappreciated or unrecognized. That he played with one of 4 players in the running for GOAT meant he got less press and maybe public attention. But which of Pippen or Jordan would you choose first if you had a draft of players from that era?

Who was more responsible for the Yankees' success in the late '20s and the '30s, Ruth or Gehrig? Each made the other one great, but Ruth is considered a God and Gehrig is remembered best for his durability. (Sadly, ironically, he has now become known for a debilitating disease.)

If you want to ponder more imponderables, how about this one: Who is the most overrated player in NBA history? My choice is Allen Iverson, by virtue of always getting gaudy stats without ever taking his teams anywhere special.

@jayballer54 you seem like a Rodman kind of guy!

@mayjay most over-rated? Carmelo

@tis4tim said:

Robert Horry

That's a good pick.

@mayjay Boy that is a good question, haven't really given that a whole lot of thought, something for the ol guy to ponder on this afternoon - - dam now you got me trying to think & it hurts lol. - - Over rated? hmmm.

You know funny you brought up the Yankee's reference - -seeing as how I'm a HUGE Yankees fan - -always have been - -always will be - -BUT used to live in a very small rural town in south Central Kansas, about 15 miles north east of Wichita, the town was named Benton. About half way between Wichita and El Dorado - - anyways used to live right across the street from and elderly man who actually play professional; ball - - never really made it big in the majors but - -was in that same time frame with Babe and Gehrig - - his name was Ralph Wyngarner not sure if that how the last name was spelled but - - - he had a room in his house that was really special.

Ralph use to play for the team called I believe Red stockings or something like that - -he actually if you can believe it or not won the pinch hitter of the year in the minor leagues it was crazy. He had pic of all the big time players, had his old mitt, his old uniform,. used to hang out with Phil R, Pee Wee Reese, Gehrig, Ruth told me stories, I could listen to him for hours - -look at all the memorabilia.

His wife would always tell me get Ralph to tell you about some of the times they would go out crazy - -as you know the Babe was quite the partier. Ralph had one of the very last balls the Babe actually personally autographed. Ralph's wife Ruth was at the game one time during Babe's last days and had a ball she wanted him to autograph, - -Ralph told her not to bother him - -bug him about that or with that, that he wasn't feeling good - -The Babe ask Ralph bother me about what? - -He says oh she wanted to see if you would autograph this ball AND he did - - I can still remember that room just filled with treasure, and photo's and stories. - - Sorry got carried away - -got off track - -ahh the good old days - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer54 I bet that was fun!

@Crimsonorblue22 Really? and why is that? - -cause his nickname was the worm? lol just messin with ya, so I seem like a Dennis Rodman type huh?- - Is that a good thing or bad thing? - - the guy was an absolute rebounding machine. .

Do you remember Daryl Dawkins? - -his nickname was chocolate Thunder? His Thunder came from the way he was so vicious when he flushed the ball, he told a reporter in an interview one time -- -when he goes up to flush the ball , that's his PLAY TIME and NOBODY going to try and ruin it for him. lol - - Boy I kind of wish he could stop by the field house and show Landen and what it seemed like so many other previous players we have or had in the past what to do with the ball when they get in that position - - - show them how TO FINISH, take the dam ball home with authority, instead of this cotton picken trying to finger it up off the glass like a soft piece of toilet tissue roll . make sure it's understood I'm takin this home - -DO NOT try and challenge me on this - - That's what Daryl use to do - that's what Landen needs to do. Perry use to be really bad about that a lot of the times to - -kind of like oh hope I don't hurt the glass. When you get in a position like that you need to let the opposition know, let him understand - -this is MY TIME. - - I think if I remember right Daryl was one of the 1st players to shatter a backboard - -can't remember where he played College ball - -can you? - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@Crimsonorblue22 OH your so right - -when /I went over to visit a lot of times It was such a pleasure to listen, I could spend hours listening and looking at all his collection of things and stories - - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer54

Scottie Pippen is in everybody's All-Time top 50, so he definitely gets plenty pf credit. You have to consider that when talking about Chicago. the arguably Bets Player of all time, Michael Jordan, will always come first. It is the equivalent of asking about KU's greatest player, the name Wilt will always comes first. This does not by any means indicate the players like Lovellette, Manning, Pierce, Gooden, Collison Hinrich, to name a few, are not appreciated, it simply means that Wilt was the GOAT and everybody elae comes behind.

@mayjay

I am not sure I agree withe Iverson. He led he league in minutes played 8 times, scoring 4 times. steals 2 times and took very poor Philly and Denver teams to the playoffs 8 times.; unfortunately the supporting cast was so poor that he alone could not do it. If we go by this criteria, you would have to also consider players like Chamberlain and Ewing since they really did not deliver championships in the same proportion as their individual stats. He was one of the best one on one player ever. Here is a video of Iverson doing to Jordan what he did to everybody else...

What classifies as underrated? Can a perennial allstar be underrated? A HOF guy?

I would submit the following name for underrated: Joe Dumars.

The resume - two time NBA champ, Finals MVP (1989), six time all star, 4 time NBA all defense team.

The problem is that Dumars played SG at a time when Jordan, Drexler and others dominated the position, and on a team that already had Isiah Thomas as its star and go to player.

If being a multiple time allstar is too much, I would submit a different name: Sean Elliott. A lot of people don't necessarily remember him from the mid to late 90s Spurs teams, but he was a big time player on those teams. Unfortunately, kidney disease probably cut his career short a couple of seasons, and likely held his numbers down as well, but he was a big time player.

@jayballer54 i thought the same thing about Scottie Pippen until he became a Houston Rocket, then I realized that...yes, Michael Jordan did make him, because he wasn't even close to being the same player he was in Chicago.

@JayHawkFanToo I admit he could do great things, but I always felt it was only about him, perhaps because he pretty much said so. “I don’t wanna be Jordan, I don’t wanna be Magic, I don’t wanna be Bird or Isiah. I don’t wanna be any of those guys. When my career’s over, I want to look in the mirror and say I did it my way.”

Each of those guys had better players around them, but they also worked really hard at making those other guys better. Each had much better team-helping stats, and each had multiple championships. And I think it had something to do with their way. Iverson's way got him scoring awards, but not much else.

Didn’t he almost single-handedly drive Larry Brown to the looney bin?

As to Wilt, he was up against a dynasty in Boston and he did get 2 rings eventually. And Ewing never displayed Iverson's cocky crappy attitude that he was much better than other greats.

I feel the same way about Westbrook--game on the line, he wants the credit for winning more than he wants to make his team win. He should have passed at the end of games 6 and 7 in the W finals last year, but pushed it, rushed it, flew it, and blew it.

In fairness, this guy disagrees with me on Westbrook but reading the article supports my theory overall: he keeps trying to be the hero, without carrying it off. I think it hurts a team to do that. www.cbssports.com/nba/news/russell-westbrooks-poor-finish-in-western-finals-shouldnt-feed-a-bad-narrative/amp/

@justanotherfan I agree on Dumars as a major candidate. Great GM, too.

@DanR said:

@tis4tim said:

Robert Horry
That’s a good pick.

DanR,

I swear to goodness that guy hit more clutch shots than any human should. He also has to be one of the luckiest NBA guys ever seemingly being traded to a team just before said team became champions. 7 rings in 16 seasons for the dude, the most in a career outside of anyone on the '60s era Celtics teams. Just one of those guys who always seemed to be in the right place at the right time.

@mayjay

Every single great players want to do it his own way and not copy someone else, this is what makes them great...no one want to be knows as the second coming of xxx or...xxx the second or part two and so on. Iverson almost single handed took his teams to the payoffs 8 times;, with better teammates or playing for a different team with better players he has multiple titles.

Keep in mind that when Wilt took the 76ers to the Championship, the League in '66-'67, the NBA had only 10 teams and 8 made it to the playoffs; he also had much better support including Hal Greer averaging 22 points, Chet Walker and Billy Cunningham, both with 19 points. When he won the Championship with the Lakers in 71-72, he had an All-Star support cast and he was no longer the player the team depended. That team included players like Elgin Baylor, Jim McMillan, Jim Cleamons, Keith Erickson, Gail Goodrich, Happy Hairston, Pat Riley and Jerry West. No one would ever call Wilt overrated, right?

To me, overrated is an average player that gets a lot more credit by virtue of playing for great teams or with great teammates. I don't believe you can say this about Iverson because he played for crappy teams and with average at best teammates and yet managed to have big numbers. This is one we agree to disagree...smiley face emoji here...

ahh glad I started this thread - -great feedback which I knew there would be - got to break away for awhile but I'll check in later got to get my meal going - -gonna have some meatloaf - - baked beans - -and some blueberry muffins- -can't wait - - and as always ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG ABY

@jayballer54 Geez, @jayballer54, you get all the good stuff and we just get food for thought!

@JayHawkFanToo Smiling emojis are very underrated!

@mayjay

I can't seem to place them from my Firefox browser anymore. I can do it from an iPad though...go figure...

@mayjay lol, sorry, been craving for a long time been awhile- -come on over made it myself - - love to cook , was part of us kids chores when growing up, mom & dad always said we provide the food we expect supper to be ready when we get home -- - okie dokie noooo problem lol.

so learned a lot there, then took basic foods for men as a class when I was in high school plus I took a foreign foods clas also, know how to cook a lot of foreign dishes lol, I love food for thought on here keeps me alive, love my friends on here - -Good to be a Jayhawk - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer54 Daryl Dawkins straight from High School to the NBA. Passed away 2015 at the age of 58. I am still a fan. What an amazing athlete! As far as underrated, I loved watching Andrew Toney from the Sixers. He would have been great if not for foot injuries. He was known as "The Boston Strangler" for getting the best of the Celtics in the early 80's. Truly underrated.

@jayballer54 As great as MJ was, in that whole era it was proven beyond all doubt, that a 1-man show cannot win it all. MJ got stopped by the Pistons how many times? Until he got the Jordanaires (supporting cast). Pippen was HUGE. And adding 6'5 Ron Harper was very important. Rodman played his role. Kukoc was the blueprint faceup power fwd who could stretch the floor.

Man, that was some fun bkball. Son is named "Jordan", after MJ. Wife & I were huge MJ fans.

@mayjay

Iverson's a tough case. He couldn't be Jordan, Bird or Magic because he simply wasn't big enough. His team's never found him a Dumars so that he could be Isiah. So he took what he was given and threw his body into brick wall after brick wall and emerged victorious far more than a guy his size ever should have. Iverson punched above his weight class every night. That's something that most could not do. How many one man gangs have we seen go to the Finals in the last 20 years? Honestly, just Iverson's 2001 Sixers and Lebron's 2007 Cavs. Every other team had far more depth. Iverson accomplished something that only the greatest player of this generation was able to do.

Yes, he was a headache, but going it alone for so many years probably didn't help. Would Iverson's career have turned out differently had he ended up on a decent team early in his career that actually surrounded him with talent? Probably. But we will never know.

@JayHawkFanToo good call on Gail Goodrich. A forgotten big time scorer from the 1970s.

Without hesitation.. I have my pick for the NBA player that was completely underappreciated. This is a different category than "underrated."

Ray Allen was given his proper accolades:

2× NBA champion (2008, 2013)
10× NBA All-Star (2000–2002, 2004–2009, 2011)
All-NBA Second Team (2005)
All-NBA Third Team (2001)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997)
NBA Sportsmanship Award (2003)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2001)
NBA all-time 3-point leading scorer
Consensus first-team All-American (1996)
UPI Player of the Year (1996)
Big East Player of the Year (1996)
2× First-team All-Big East (1995, 1996)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (1995)

But I do not believe he was appreciated enough for his completeness as a player and how he was able to create success. He was (and still is) an incredible athlete. But it was his FOCUS on the game, his shot, his lifestyle and training, that separated Ray from the field. He even admits to being OCD, and that it helped him with his success.

If I could get one message to Perry Ellis, that message would be for Perry to track down Ray Allen and approach him with humility and an open mind. Ray Allen made basketball his religion. No one player has ever worked as hard to find his success in the game. No one. I can say that with authority after watching live play with many of the greats, including several times being courtside to watch Allen. For any basketball fan, watching Allen live should have been on their bucket list. His shot was unreal, and I've seen many of the great shooters up close, from Larry Bird to Steve Nash... none had the mechanics down like Ray.

Look at what Ray Allen has accomplished. NBA Championships and piles of trophies for both team play and individual play. But consider his current age, 41, and he can still play for just about any NBA team today. His healthy lifestyle, his understanding how to take care of himself (both on and off the court). and his knowledge of the game, human nature, and the overall view of life, makes Ray a great player to have on your roster if for no other reason than help coach young players.

Check out some links and learn about Ray and his life. It is worthwhile reading and you will come to understand why his shot took a career for him to take.

THE SHOT RAY ALLEN TOOK A CAREER TO TAKE ↗

The Shot Ray Allen Took A Career To Take ↗

Letter to My Younger Self ↗

Routine excellence is Allen's secret ↗

Erik Spoelstra: No one like Ray Allen ↗

Watch the video in the last link. Eventually, it will get to Ray's college days, when he took down Iverson with a crazy shot in the Big East Tournament, UCONN vs Georgetown.

@justanotherfan One of the biggest Draft Day mistakes ever was when the Sixers passed on Paul Pierce and drafted Larry Hughes. I think Iverson and Pierce could have one it all together. Remember the NBA went away from strictly a man to man defense to allowing a zone defense to stop Iverson. Trying to check Pierce and Iverson one on one would have been a defensive nightmare. Bottom line is the Sixers blew it!

@KansasComet

I'll go a year earlier, with the Sixers taking Keith Van Horn (Keith! Van! Horn!) over Chauncey Billups. Iverson and Billups in the backcourt together may have been what they needed to stabilize their team. They also could have taken Tracy McGrady with the #2 pick in 1997.

They missed in 1997. Missed again in 1998. Didn't have a lottery pick in 1999, and by then Iverson had made them too good to get high picks again. The key when you draft a superstar is to immediately draft another one (see also Orlando landing Shaq and Hardaway in back to back drafts, or Seattle/OKC getting Durant, Westbrook and James Harden in consecutive drafts). If you don't do it immediately, your once in a generation player will make your team too good to have the chance to get another pick like that (see James, Lebron).

So many choices for underrated or under appreciated.  I like the Horace Grant  pick,  Jack Sikma is another

For overratted Carmelo ranks right up there.

When I think of of those Bulls teams the 2 names I remember are Jordan and Pippen, like salt and pepper they belong together.  Pippen may have been overshadowed but not underrated or under appreciated. That's JMO.
I went back and looked at the roster the other name that jumped out was Steve Kerr, never did like that guy.

Scottie Still being remembered on his 51st birthday

Hall of Fame NBA forward Scottie Pippen, a seven-time All-Star and six-time champion with the Chicago Bulls, turned 51 years old on Sept. 25, 2016. In celebration of Pip's 51st birthday, we present 33 classic SI photos of No. 33.

http://www.si.com/nba/photos/2015/09/25/classic-si-photos-scottie-pippen ↗

@justanotherfan Loved your post. Thanks!

KU Basketball News

Talk about Kansas University Basketball news stories.

@brooksmd AND where do we go for other topics.....?

@brooksmd Well, Wilt's name came up in a couple of posts!

@Crimsonorblue22 I know where at least several of us go - GD !!

@mayjay Yeah, but original post had nothing to do with Kansas basketball. Just like recruits that Kansas has absolutely no interest in. Some of us have been castigated in the past for talking Royals on this site. At least we do it in the General Discussion area. JMO

It's been moved. The clerical error has been cleaned up and disaster narrowly adverted!