🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Put three best, non B12 power conference winners as 1 seeds outside Midwest region.

Put KU and winner of last non B12 power five conference 1 and 2 respectively in Midwest Region.

Fill the Midwest Region with the best of the rest of the teams across the country, especially those that are bad match ups for KU.

Wait for KU to have an off shooting night and be eliminated before Final Four.

If KU gets to the FF, default to referees in semi final game.

If KU gets to Finals, referees again.

If KU wins, have everyone talk about the loser, then cut away to "One Shining Moment" edited to emphasize EST teams and cut to Fake News.

WE HAVE A WINNAH!!!

@jaybate-1.0 its the refs! Its the refs! Never the players! Lol Come on, sounds like what I hear from the cryclone fans. Was it the refs in 2013? In 2011? I think we know the answer.

@HawkChamp said:

@jaybate-1.0 its the refs! Its the refs! Never the players! Lol Come on, sounds like what I hear from the cryclone fans. Was it the refs in 2013? In 2011? I think we know the answer.

It is always the refs, don't you know? You left out 2003. At the horrible rate we were making free throws, the refs screwed us by not engineering increasing the # of fouls called on Syracuse to about 34 so we could catch up. (Sarcasm font!)

@HawkChamp

Wisconsin called, they suggest you watch again their final game against Duke and then state the refs don't make a difference.

@JayHawkFanToo I remember watching it and thinking the refs favored whichever team was going toward the end of the court that Wisconsin was going to in the first half, and Duke was going to in the second half.

@mayjay

Refs are well trained to favor Duke at the right time...

@JayHawkFanToo to me, thats just a weak sauce excuse. What games has KU lost because of ref bias? I am curious.

@HawkChamp

Did you watch the KU at WVU game? Worst refereed game I have seen in a long time. WVU was the team pressing and when a team does this two things can happen, either you create a turnover or you foul. KU had very few turnover and considerably more fouls that WVU which is not what logic would dictate.Look at the stats, the refs might not have had one critical call that decided the game but there is no question that the way they called the game early effectively took KU out of that game...you can look at it any way you want but if you read the contemporary post throughout the game and the comments afterwards, there is no question that most if not everybody that participated in that thread felt the same way.

Look at the WVU -TCU game...that last foul call the gave WVU the win was plain BS and even the announcers said that much at the time.

I am sure KSU believes that the refs gave the game in Lawrence to KU by not calling the walk on Svi. Refs affect the game all the time and some do it more than others.

Do you watch Duke games? if you do you can see Coach rat face getting on the refs faces and never gets a T and he get all the favorable calls; Huggy does the same thing. Sometime I wish Coach Self would get louder and draw an early T and get more favorable calls but we all know that is not how he rolls.

@JayHawkFanToo more ref blaming. Thats what Marsha fans, Baylor fans and the cryclones do constantly. Apparently, their teams have never truly lost a single game to another team - those pesky zebras got in the way.

Remind me how many games did Duke lose last year? What is their record this year? Did the refs help them in 2014 against Mercer?

@HawkChamp

Are you telling me that refs do not affect games? If that is the case I have some nice waterfront property in Florida I can sell to you at a great price.

@JayHawkFanToo they do affect games, but they dont decide outcomes. As a player, that argument that refs decide outcomes is the silliest notion I've ever heard.

@HawkChamp

Did you watch the WVU-TCU game? You don't think they determined the outcome of that game? There is no way that should have been a foul.

@JayHawkFanToo He shoots...he SCORES...

@HawkChamp You won't ever convince me that Dook didn't have help in that game against Wisky. Not after the cupcake bracket, the 2 home games, and then that disaster of a game called by Dook's 6th and 7th man. Call me a whiner all you want- just don't call me late to dinner.

@JayHawkFanToo so KU didn't make any mistakes? There was nothing they could have done better? Again, you're making excuses.

@KUSTEVE where were the refs against Mercer? Or lehigh? Or Louisville in 2013?

@HawkChamp

It must be cool to see the world through lenses that correct for apparent asymmetry. I want a pair. I see the appearance of some asymmetry on this issue. Where do you go? Symmetricrafters?

😀

Seriously I'm curious. How exactly do you explain a coach at an elite program that can win 13 straight conference titles, and 84% of his games against some of the toughest non conference competition ever scheduled some seasons, but only one ring and being effectively unable to sign OAD centers and OAD point guards, while facing not infrequently apparently asymmetric talent stacks, bracket stacks and March whistle leans? Something seems a little out of kilter and the argument it's Self is starting to get a little tenuous after 13 years IMHO. Again, only talking about appearances. How do you explain the appearances that are significant enough that some notice?

After you 'splain that, then consider this: ever notice how little trouble Self has with Shaka in conference vs Shaka in the March Carney? Shaka arguably has better players at Texas than he had at VCU and Self arguably has a less complete team than he had when he lost to Shaka in the tourney. Why was Shaka soooooooooo good in the tourney, but not in conference. Are you saying there are some great tourney coaches that can't coach a lick in regular season? I don't follow that logic any more than I do those that say there are great regular season coaches that can't coach a lick in post season. I can buy some are a little better in post season, maybe, or vice versa. But Self has spanked Shaka several times in regular season. What gives here. Was Shaka beating Self in the tourney a "random" chance, or is Shaka a better tourney coach and a lousy regular season coach, or might whistle asymmetry have had a hand?

After 13 years, but especially since 2008, I sometimes wonder If fans are waiting for Assange, or Snowden, to dump some emails about college ball? After 13 years some apparent patterns are out on the table for the reasonable to at least wonder about IMHO. Not talking about proven and certainty. Talking about appearances! Not to every one, just to some. No one agrees on anything except maybe slow death sucks. Do you ever notice some appearances, since 2008, like some others have? Not talkin' 'bout proof. Talkin' 'bout appearances that might make some reasonable fans wonder. Do you?

Ready, set, go. This I gotta hear! I am keeping an open mind. The broth of skepticism makes the gravy of every discussion better.

@HawkChamp they can only do so much. dook is a big brand, and they will get every possible advantage from seeding, to location, to calls in the game.

@HawkChamp

I said they helped Duke, I did not say they were miracle workers...there is only so much they can do...and perhaps the check did not clear in time anyway... :smiley:

@jaybate-1.0 and @KUSTEVE

I am frustrated as well, but the refs do not decide the outcome. Jaybate, you mention the discrepancy in coach's performance during the regular season and the tournament. Here are some examples for you. 2011 - Markief had eight turnovers by himself and a good three point shooting team goes 2-21 against VCU. Did the refs try to distract them when they were shooting?

2013 - Johnson commits a ten second count and a bad pass in the backcourt late in the game against Michigan. Instead of turning it over, what if Michigan doesn't have those 30 to 40 seconds to complete the comeback? Or what if we scored on one of those?

2016 - KU commits six more turnovers than NOVA and loses by five, but the game was even closer than that. What if we score on even one of those possessions instead of losing six possessions? We would be talking about Bills third final four.

This is elementary basketball analysis. You can't keep giving the other team chances to score while your team loses chances to score. Am I understanding you guys correctly that turnovers don't matter?

@jaybate-1.0 Well I hope it doesn't pan out that way. I feel surprisingly good about our boys this year. Earlier on, I didn't think they had a chance in hell. Now, they have proven they can fight til the end and win. That's something last years team didn't have enough of.
Lets see how the brackets fall this time b4 making judgements.
I don't really pay attention to Lunardi's junk any more except to see how other teams are doing. He hardly ever gets close to what actually happens.

East coast bias is real

@JayHawkFanToo said:

there is no question that most if not everybody that participated in that thread felt the same way

I have literally never seen a game thread on this Board where the majority of posts thought the refs were not screwing KU.

@HawkChamp said:

2013

And what if EJ doesn't have the absolutely most idiotic mind cramp in the history of sports by poking Michigan's big guy in the bits?

@HawkChamp

If I felt about college basketball the way @jaybate-1.0 does, even if he just thinks engineering is a possibility, I would never watch it again. What would be the point?

"I am frustrated as well, but the refs do not decide the outcome"
--@HawkChamp

I'm grateful and joyful about the way Self and KU have vaulted over apparent obstacles to a great decade plus 3--NOT even a little frustrated.

Things are going great. Each season the apparent obstructions are overcome and we then seem a season closer to the powers that be being incentivized toward enabling the appearance of a more symmetric system, or ever more speculative chatter about the appearances of asymmetry.

FWIW, I'm enjoying the season immensely. I feel vindicated about my long support of Self's skill and genius. And frankly the apparent trend of appearances of obstruction year after year just keeps accruing and so makes it appear more and more conceivable as a hypothetical possibilty IMHO worth inquiring about. What is there for me to be frustrated about?

Now I might be getting VERY frustrated were I defending your apparent POV.

You're the one that seems stuck polishing a metaphorical scat dropping, at least to me. You would appear to keep having to explain away and rationalize year after year and to some degree omit the accruing stream of appearances to hold this apparent POV, right? Yet these appearances just don't appear to stop, so board rats with your apparent POV appear to have to keep polishing. I just get to keep noting them, when they appear to occur. I just get to note them. I don't have to explain them away, or even explain them at all. It's not my job, as a fan. I just get to note what appears possibly to have happened. I just take the appearances perceived and note them. If it turns out not to have been as it appeared, I am happy to discover it. It's not an agenda with me. I don't need it to be proven true. I would be happier if it were proven false.

I don't envy board rats with the task of having to explain away on-going intermittent appearances of asymmetry. It's probably easy once or twice. I believe that's why some just try to do it once or twice. But season after season for years on end, over a decade now, it must feel kind of daunting. It seems like trying to explain away to guests what appears a 300 pound gorilla wearing a lamp shade on your sofa that shows up at every end of recruiting season Party and March party you throw for 13 years running. Having to posit a few anecdotal historical what-if examples about post season refs as a dike in the face of more or less yearly (especially Since 2008 and counting) accrual of more regular season wins and titles by Self, despite accruing appearances of apparently legal whistle and seeding asymmetry in post season, plus no OAD center and PG signings by arguably one of the game's three best coaches for a decade? Hmmm. 'splaining persuasively why a coach of Self's increasingly unparalleled success in regular season doesn't sign OAD centers and PGs since 2008 must be a kind of tight rope walk. To mix metaphors, it must feel like the little Dutch Boy running out of fingers to plug the dike. What if Self wins five more titles, ups his winning percentage to 85% and even bucks the seeding and refereeing and wins another ring, but still can't sign an OAD center or PG--what then? Are you going to keep buffing the scat? The more you polish the appearances away, the more polished the appearances appear to become; that's the problem you appear to be stuck with. The appearances apparently aren't going away generally yet. They just appear to keep coming year after year after year, and ocassinally appear to change form, like say from apparent long stacks for a few to apparent medium stacks for several.

Board rats with your apparent POV appear to be doing some heavy lifting on this. Think about your assertion that refs don't win/tip games. It's kind of counter intuitive. If refs can't win/tip games, then why do coaches appear to expend so much energy on managing refs during games? If refs can't win/tip games, why have fixers over the years reputedly involved refs in shaping outcomes and point spreads of games? Why do coaches complain about refereeing from time to time, if the refs can't win/tip, why not? If bad refereeing can't win a game for an opponent, why would coaches complain about it at all? It appears one might be stuck polishing again.

It appears you are suggesting, well, I know refs' roles appear to be significant in winning/tipping games, but they aren't significant. Over time, the potential internal contradiction of the assertion just seems harder and harder to assert persuasively.

Time sometimes tells in this sort of thing.

I feel like time might be looking more and more like my teammate on this, but it's all appearances and speculation still. Fan chat and nothing more. No conspiracies and nothing illegal IMHO seems part of the phenomena, but I'm a layman.

Rock Chalk!

@mayjay

The way I feel about it is that it's worth watching the regular season for basketball and in March for entertainment for whatever may actually be going on. Why in the world would one not want to watch the greatest game ever invented? There have been extended periods of point shaving scandals and corruption has never been claimed to have been eliminated from D1 by any NCAA investigator I have ever read quoted, and I have continued to watch. I feel by staying engaged and supporting and cheering for right way programs I and others are part of the solution, rather than part of the problem. Why surrender the greatest game ever invented to apparently legal entertainment values, if simply by watching one becomes part of the audience metrics that appreciate apparently right way programs and dislike apparently legal but entertainment driven Ball?

If it helps you not to wonder about what I wonder about and cheer for, simply don't read my posts and be a part of another audience metric shaping the game. It's cool how it works.

Rock Chalk!!!

@HawkChamp

Yikes.... I was all on board with your post until @JayHawkFanToo mentioned the monster ripoff of Wisconsin.

That sucked me into a complete Duke tunnel of corruption.

I still think that if we traded Grayson Allen's events over to Josh Jackson, he would have been booted from D1 play.

I rarely blame everything on refs. But I am sensitive to their impact, not only in a single game, but throughout the game in its entirety.

Kansas will always get ripped off for many reasons. Here is an obvious reason: we don't "sell calls." Selling calls is not the same thing as flagrant flopping. I guestimate we lose around 2 calls a game because we won't sell it. That ends up being approximately a 3-4 pt swing, and that isn't counting the impact on player fouls (even more valuable).

Part of my frustration is that we refuse to adjust to the stupidity of the refs.

@drgnslayr said:

I rarely blame everything on refs.

I agree and go beyond this as follows: I WOULD SUGGEST NEVER blame everything on the refs.

WHATEVER MAY OR MAY NOT GO ON, IT SEEMS APPARENTLY WRAPPED IN SUCH COMPLEXITY THAT IT IS APPARENTLY EFFECTIVELY LEGAL.