SLAP! ESPN lists 9 PGs taken ahead of Frank Mason in the first round alone and Self couldn't sign any of them?
SLAP! Josh Jackson falls to 4th?
SLAP! UK, Duke, UNC, each have more first rounders than KU.
No wonder KU can't make a Deep run as often as the other elite teams!!!!
Self can't sign enough talent.
Why?
To the extent that NBA dollars is the barometer of basketball success, then yes I felt the slap of the draft last night. Unfortunately, NBA draft position is the first yardstick of a basketball athlete's value to the NBA. My hope is that like Paul Pierce, Josh and Frank will prove that Phoenix and Sacramento made the right choices and that the teams that passed on them will soon regret their decisions. RCJH
I don't think it was a slap in the face to KU that they only had two guys drafted. KU only had three guys in the draft, and we all knew that Lucas being drafted was an extreme longshot. Josh went one pick lower than many had predicted, but he was too talented to really slide once Boston didn't take him. At that point, he was the best player on the board and Phoenix picked him immediately.
Mason went earlier than a lot of people probably expected.
Self doesn't load up on NBA type athletes, so he's not going to get guys drafted at the same rate. Look at the current team. Graham is a smaller PG, so he won't be a lottery pick, though he will likely get drafted. Newman is explosive so he probably will, and maybe can sneak into the back end of the lottery. Preston is a first round body, but needs to match that with production. Azuibuke is the same. Svi is a late first round/second round type talent. Same for Vick. Nobody else on this years team is even a real prospect (not counting the Lawson's since they aren't eligible to play). Six guys are potential draftees, but none are surefire lottery picks and half of them are probably late first or early second round type picks.
That's just the nature of it.
KU has 3 potential 2018 lottery picks right now and 5 guys total who could be drafted.
Newman, Preston, and Azubuike are all possible lottery picks with Azubuike being a potential top 5 pick with his size.
Graham probably won't be a lottery pick because of his age, but he's comparable in size to Dennis Smith and Malik Monk who were both lottery so size won't hurt Graham's draft position. Svi probably ends up like Kaun as a second round draft and stash guy who plays the majority of his career in Europe and may or may not ever play in the NBA.
Vick has the possibility, but I just don't see him being featured enough in the offense to be a 2018 draft pick. He's being groomed to be the man in 2018-19 as a senior like Graham is this year.
justanotherfan said:
I don't think it was a slap in the face to KU that they only had two guys drafted. KU only had three guys in the draft, and we all knew that Lucas being drafted was an extreme longshot. Josh went one pick lower than many had predicted, but he was too talented to really slide once Boston didn't take him. At that point, he was the best player on the board and Phoenix picked him immediately.
Mason went earlier than a lot of people probably expected.
Self doesn't load up on NBA type athletes, so he's not going to get guys drafted at the same rate. Look at the current team. Graham is a smaller PG, so he won't be a lottery pick, though he will likely get drafted. Newman is explosive so he probably will, and maybe can sneak into the back end of the lottery. Preston is a first round body, but needs to match that with production. Azuibuke is the same. Svi is a late first round/second round type talent. Same for Vick. Nobody else on this years team is even a real prospect (not counting the Lawson's since they aren't eligible to play). Six guys are potential draftees, but none are surefire lottery picks and half of them are probably late first or early second round type picks.
That's just the nature of it.
I feel you gave an accurate description of next years Jayhawks that might be in the draft.
A lot of bordlerline 1st round picks unless some of these guys really take the next step.
Newman is a tough one to predict. He's not going to be a natural SG in the NBA at 6' 3 1/2 (what he measured at the 2016 combine) and he's not going to be the primary ball handler at Kansas this year with Graham so I'm really wondering how NBA folks are going to view him 2nd time around? I also feel like there will be some scouts that hold him hostage for his 2016 combine performance (think Josh Hart this year). Now having said that it certainly does look like Newman has improved a lot in his time at Kansas already and might be in best position to change people's opinions as long as this year goes well.
Texas Hawk 10 said:
KU has 3 potential 2018 lottery picks right now and 5 guys total who could be drafted.
Newman, Preston, and Azubuike are all possible lottery picks with Azubuike being a potential top 5 pick with his size.
Full on hyperbole with Doke.
Coach Self's job is first and foremost to win games at KU and then prepare players for a future career which for some is the NBA. It is amazing that he wins as much as he does without all the big time players. With all the top players UK and Duke have recruited, they should be winning the tittle every year...and yet they don't and their consolation prize is having multiple high picks in the draft.
@JayHawkFanToo Malik Newman, at Brett Ballard's WU youth camp, asked about Bill Self's favorite quote. "You will never be bigger than Kansas," he answered.
So, we beat both Duke and Kentucky. It must be because of our bench with people like Lightfoot. Bout time Self got elected to the Hall of Fame.
@BeddieKU23 If Azubuike picks up where he left off when he got hurt last year, he's going to be a highly coveted prospect based on his size alone because that's one of the few things in basketball that can't be taught.
It's possible he doesn't pick up though which is why I used the P-word with Azubuike.
A 6-3 shooting guard in the NBA?
Unless Malik shoots, drives and guards like Curry, he could be looking at late first round, or early second round.
Remember, Mario Chalmers, good as he was, was about Malik's size and he was not a hot property in the NBA draft.
@jaybate-1.0 Malik Monk and Donovan Mitchell are both listed at 6'-3" and were each lottery picks last night. The NBA is trending smaller than when Chalmers came out so bro g a 6'-3" combo guard isn't that big a deal in today's NBA.
@jaybate-1-0 Frank was the NPOY man. Frank sadly is the only 4 year PG guard that Self has had here that didnt go to a NC. I personally don't give a rip about the NBA, just hope our guys make it. Being a lottery pick doesn't always mean you will be a star. Several guys have ended up being bust and guys like Thomas for Boston have done good things as well as undrafted guys.
Now, guys, I'm part of the Bill Self fan club too. I really am. But a quick fact check you can do on your own is to compare our player's rankings to the rest of the CBB universe. We always have top 5 talent. I can't even remember when we haven't had top tier talent. Look at our projected rotation this season. Find me 5 teams with a better rotation. That is nearly always the case.
Graham, Newman, Vick, Svi, Udoka, Preston, Lightfoot, Garrett, Whitman.
Regular season-wise, Self seems to be the best at not underachieving with his talent. Meaning, better than any other coach (in my opinion), he gets the max out of his talent during the regular season. That's what's amazing. His ability to get the most out of his talent in the regular season without dips, valleys, and off years. That is what separates Bill Self.
Post season-wise, it's just a different discussion. The arguments I have seen when Self is chastised for his post-season losses is to point out how Kansas and Self are similar to other schools. And there is the point. Self is NOT amazing in the post season despite top 5 talent. And he certainly isn't better than the group of top coaches.
How am I wrong?
The problem with Mario was that he played SG in college and he needed to switch to PG in the NBA and that was a risky move that could have ended badly. Luckily, he was able to develop into a serviceable PG.
@HighEliteMajor I'm not sure if he has the best talent. Maybe the best players, but not the best talent. He coaches his guys up like crazy and knows these league teams like none other. But when he has less prep time, what does he do?
Against league teams, you know those teams so well and how to beat them, and you need players to simply do what you say. To do that at KU's level, you need more than just obedience, you need good talent.
Against elite teams with whom you're not familiar, you need ELITE talent to make up for your lack of gameplanning.
When you're number one like KU is, you get a lot of attention. Coaches watch you throughout the year and think of how to beat you. Trust me, Altman was DREAMING ALL YEAR about playing KU in the tournament. And he was preparing for it for a while in one form or another.
Bill wasn't thinking about Oregon much all year. He was thinking of the Big XII. And though he had good players, he needed elite talent to get him past Oregon.
UNC had the elite talent. We didn't. They won. We lost.
kjayhawks said:
I personally don't give a rip about the NBA, just hope our guys make it.
Start rip-giving. It's vital that we have as many draft choices as the teams we meet to beat in March.
chriz said:
Against elite teams with whom you're not familiar, you need ELITE talent to make up for your lack of gameplanning.
Yours is the greatest single distillation of the problem yet!!!
Ding, ding, ding!!!!
We have a winner!!!!
Texas Hawk 10 said:
@jaybate-1.0 Malik Monk and Donovan Mitchell are both listed at 6'-3" and were each lottery picks last night. The NBA is trending smaller than when Chalmers came out so bro g a 6'-3" combo guard isn't that big a deal in today's NBA.
Both players you listed are unbelievable athletes. Newman tested with a 35 inch max vert in 2016 so he's not even close to them athletically which is a big factor in why their other measurables didnt stop them from going in the lottery. Monk was also the best shooter in the draft, Mitchell was coveted for his ability to create offense and play pg.
We have no idea yet what Newman will standout at but we hear good things about his offense
@chriz @jaybate-1-0 Once again, respectfully, I think there is this possibly purposeful avoidance of the facts here. We have top 5 talent nationally every year. That is "elite" talent. We talk regularly about all of our draft choices. We see all of the stars next to the recruits. We always have elite talent.
We were not playing a team with "Elite" talent from a ranking standpoint.
And certainly not a team with more talent that we had. Same with our loss to Villanova. And the same as UNC, who regularly has won without the OAD guys and with talent in line with KU. None of those teams had more talent than we did.
Oregon Elite? Please. Here's their rivals rankings Jordan Bell 68, Payton Pritchard 49, Tyler Dorsey 18, Dillon Brooks 98, Dylan Ennis 99, Kavell Bigby-Williams (unranked), and Casey Benson (unranked).
This is simply folly, our attempts to demean the talent on Bill Self's bench, for the sole purpose of explaining away why we lose.
I won't bother posting the rankings of the players we relied upon in the game vs. Oregon. We know.
In fact, this past season -- arguably at least -- we had the two of the top five players on college basketball courts in Frank Mason and Josh Jackson.
All that matters for CBB success is how the play in CBB. Mason was the best player in the county. Josh Jackson was pretty darned close to that.
I guess @chriz's argument about game planning is interesting in that I have said before that Self should be planning during the season for the NCAA tourney. And I do believe that he does. But if he is not tasking his assistants with long term scout assignments on the top teams, that is simply not forgivable. Again, I think he does that. Getting running reports ready for the top 15 teams, for example. What @chriz really said is that because Altman was prepping for us, we got out coached. That's the conclusion.
Another reality is whether Dana Altman simply developed his talent better than Bill Self did? I don't know. But he had a very good team, one comparable to Kansas to be sure. And I sure hope we were prepping for Oregon all season.
@jaybate-1.0 Yeah man, I dunno about slapped. Josh falling to 4th was one or two picks low IMO. But what ever. Paul Pierce went 10th! Josh has the tenacity to be even better than Wiggins. I think Josh will take this chip on his shoulder and use it.
When we win it all again I'm betting we get a lot more draft picks from our team like we did in 08
wrwlumpy said:
So, we beat both Duke and Kentucky. It must be because of our bench with people like Lightfoot. Bout time Self got elected to the Hall of Fame.
Wins over big teams like Duke, Kentucky and Michigan st in one season, and having the only player to sweep all the major awards for POY this year is Greater than where our beloved boys went in the draft.
Don't we play Duke and/or Michigan St and Kentucky again this year?
Ohhhh boy !!
@jaybate-1.0 I suppose you are correct about that and my mentioning the 08 team with 5 draft picks kinda solidifies that. But we only got one lotto pick out of it! Didn't Rush go like 13 or 14?
Shady fell to later than expected, so did Mario. Kaun and DBlock were late 2nd as expected.
@HighEliteMajor we have elite eight talent. Not sure we have final four talent (I guess that's what I mean by elite). Why can other teams with this talent get there and we can't, I don't know. It is interesting that we do well in the weekend's first game but not the 2nd. Self can win us the 1st game, but apparently not the 2nd as often, and I think that's where he needs the talent like UNC, Duke, and Kentucky to get to the final four more consistently.
That's a tall task in the Big XII though. And in Lawrence KS. Much easier on the east coast. That's why teams east of the Mississippi win virtually every title. (Plus there are more schools east of the Mississippi.)
@chriz So who do you think that we have lost to in the Elite 8 that has greater talent than we do? Or in the sweet 16? Or the round of 32? Under Self, have we ever lost to a team with better talent that we have other than UK in the 2012 title game?
MSU in 2009?
I'm curious when talent under Self has ever been the issue.
I think it's one of two alternatives -- either, theory 1, Self achieves about equally to other elites in the tourney; or theory 2, Self underachieves in the tourney because he has been out coached at times -- witness losses to teams with lesser talent.
That Michigan team in the sweet 16 in 2013 was pretty talented. At least 6 players have played in the NBA, including all the starters, and most of them have done pretty well. (McGary (sp?) blew his career to drugs: trying to recover from the "shot felt round the world"?) 3 of the Wolverines have averaged double figures.
First, it's all too real Self can't fill the crucial 1 and 5 spots with anything better than 4-star recruits. Now he even has to settle for 4-star transfers at the point. The 1 and 5 positions are becoming even more crucial in small Ball, too. If you can't control those matchups in March, it doesn't matter who you have for 5-stars and OADs at 2 through 4. You go home by the 8.
But I also think there is this tendency to forget that most of the pros SELF has in the NBA are his 2 through 4 players, plus the the anomalous outlier, Embiid. And that all of these players, except Embiid, are role players in the L, not franchise players. I hope this isn't intentionally selective memory, but it's at least unintentionally so.
Self can't hope to win rings, if he has to deal with a lack of numbers and guys at the 1and 5 that can't dominate the 5 stars and OADs they meet. He has to control the 1and 5, and have enough numbers not to have to short bench with 7 at Carney time.
Our guys will always tend to be drafted lower than other elite teams, when it's a close choice. Why? Because we are adidas and most pro teams making roster choices, where the choice is close, would be nuts not to choose the Nike player for shoe politics down stream. It's naive to think shoeco-agency politics stop mattering in the pros.