🏀 KuBuckets Archive

We are quickly venturing into worst case scenario territory but should still be pretty good barring an unmitigated disaster.

Dotson/Moore/Grimes

Grimes/Moore/Garrett

Garrett/Grimes/KJ

KJ/Dedric/Mitch

Dedric/McCormack

Deep Bench: Cunliffe/Agbaji

Pretty flexible too, the only guys I'd lock into a position are Dotson and McCormack. Dotson mainly because I would slate him as the only true PG on the roster, though Moore and Grimes are solid combo options. McCormack because he has a center skill set, is huge and all the other bigs on the roster are capable of playing the 4. Dedric will be playing a lot of center in this scenario.

I think Moore is the primary back-up guard at this point unfortunately. I could even see him starting early on because Self.

Mitch going from a possible RS to likely 3rd big. Pretty crazy.

This rotation is probably good enough to win #15. Shooting is a huge concern and there are so many relative unknowns though.

The one thing is this situation represents THREE open scholarships. If Self can avoid that he will.

Potentially not having Silvio is crushing. I have no idea what's going to happen with him. The longer this drags out without clarity the longer the doubt will creep in about his availability.

We need another guard. Cremo fits a big need. Let's hope Villanova doesn't win him Wednesday

I don't think Doke is back after getting to the Combine. I would be shocked if he did return. We recruited accordingly.

The biggest thing I take from no Langford and possibly losing Doke- Size. Both represented the top 1% of their positions. We will be small balling it if nothing else is added

If our freshman ball out and we have this many openings, I can see us getting into a one and done cycle the next few years. Man I hope NBA ends it.

I actually like this line up better. I think there's a lot more flexibility without Doke in the middle. KJ and Mitch as stretch 4's with Dedric and McCormack in the low post isn't bad. Dedric is also someone capable of making some shots on the perimeter.

@BShark

Are you assuming Doke and DeSousa are not coming back? I think there is a 70% chance Doke is back and, if no wrong doing on the part of DeSousa is found only his guardian and the penalty is only a few games, then he is back for sure and all KU need is an outside shooter which Cremo would do nicely

JayHawkFanToo said:

@BShark

Are you assuming Doke and DeSousa are not coming back? I think there is a 70% chance Doke is back and, if no wrong doing on the part of DeSousa is found only his guardian and the penalty is only a few games, then he is back for sure and all KU need is an outside shooter which Cremo would do nicely

This is supremely optimistic. I don't see any way Silvio plays a game for KU again. :shrug:

@BShark Agreed. KU has already shown that they won't play people with ongoing eligibility issues (i.g. the Billy situation) and I would be surprised if the NCAA even starts their official investigation by the start of next season with the rate they are moving. I don't know how people are so optimistic.

@JayHawkFanToo And if there is actual evidence to back up the inditement, he will be ineligible. The NCAA loophole around the guardian accepting payment was closed. The only I see for him out of it is to hope their evidence is flimsy/hearsay or to hope that the investigation gets a lot bigger and the NCAA makes a compromise on their rules.

@MR11 Yep. It would be different if Self had shown a history of knowingly playing players with issues. He hasn't though and like you said there is just about no change anything official happens with Silvio any time soon. So Self won't risk playing him. The question will ultimately be will he still even take up a scholarship and a roster spot or will both parties just move on now.

@BShark

It would not surprise me to see the NCAA unveil a new set of very strict rules with severe penalties based on the recommendations of the committee moving forward and declare an overall amnesty for past misdeeds, particularly if there are indications of new and upcoming indictments that would include Nike and Under Armour and their flagship programs like the darlings of the East Coast MSM such as Duke, UK, UNC, Syracuse and others.

I am not overly worried about the personnel available next year.

D. Lawson, K. Lawson, and Moore are all available. Lightfoot and Garrett are back. That by itself is a solid enough starting five. Not great, but solid enough. That's a P5 quality starting five, and that assumes Doke stays in the draft and De Sousa remains ineligible. Sam Cunliffe is still here as well.

Then you add in a top notch recruiting class with Grimes, Dotson, McCormack and Agbaji. McCormack should be able to play some minutes at the 5, even if its just 10-15 a game. Dotson will either start or play significant minutes at the 1. Agbaji is probably just depth next season, but there are scenarios where I see him playing double digit minutes and holding his own. I think his career path will be somewhat similar to Semi Ojeleye, where he sticks around college for four years, then makes an impact at the next level as he continues to mature.

And then there's Quentin Grimes. He offers the perimeter punch this team needs. He's a good enough ball handler to play in any lineup, even if its without Dotson and Moore.

Honestly, the two most important players, as far as roster construction, for next season are KJ Lawson and Quentin Grimes because both of those guys can play multiple positions and guard multiple positions.

This team will be just fine. And if either Silvio or Doke is back, that just adds depth to the frontcourt as guys re-shuffle to make room.

@JayHawkFanToo Hmmm. Sounds good to me. So James Gatto, et. al., dies on the cross for the sins of CBB? That would be something.

And I like the strict rules. It's exactly the path CBB should take, it's really what we've been saying. CBB has its lane, it can compete, it has value, and it doesn't need to become a lesser version of the NBA to succeed.

@HighEliteMajor

The truth is that the NCAA probably does not want any more dirty laundry aired out in public, particularly if it involves the East Coast MSM darlings. Adidas is the tip of the iceberg and once Nike's and Under Armour's turn comes up it will get a lot worse since Nike is larger than the rest combined...and football has not even come up yet and I read is considerably worse.

I agree that a tough set of rules strictly enforced is the best answer. Frankly, the majority of individuals causing the bulk of the issues are a few dozen of high level prospects which if they skip college and go pro, the majority of the issues would go away. I have always said that quality upperclassmen will usually outperform OADs.

Every year the NBA drafts 60 players of which 30-40 are college players, many upperclassmen. Why should the NCAA change everything for 30-40 transient players and jeopardize the status of 5,000+ players that just want to play competitive college basketball without professional aspiration while getting a free education and are extremely happy and thankful for the current system? I believe that if student athletes are required to attend 3 years of college and high level prospects/OADS can go directly to the NBA, the overall quality of college play would be improved.

FWIW, looks like the FBI investigation might have been indeed the real reason why Langford did not select KU. This type of story ↗ is all over the internet now and I am sure opposing coaches competing with KU for players will use it against KU. The damage has just begun.

@JayHawkFanToo Your quote from Ray Donovan as spot on. I've said this before, I firmly believe that Self is a target. Prosecutors love slaying targets that appear pristine. It's almost as if we were provoked into the "victim" discussion. I can see it now, Self indicted claiming he knew of payments made from Adidas to others, with that knowledge he did not protect KU from the fraud, he benefitted from not preventing the fraud, he was thus a co-conspirator, etc. James Gatto is not a "big fish." I wonder, yes I do, how much info that the prosecutors are attempting to extract from those that have been indicted.

Does anyone think this grandstanding prosecution is meant to stop with a pud like Gatto?

Some questions of Mr. Gatto in front of the Grand Jury - "Please, Mr. Gatto, tell me about your contacts with Kurtis Townsend": "Had you discussed with Townsend the payment to DeSousa"; "Did Townsend mention his knowledge of the UA payment"; "How much contact did you have with Larry Brown"; "Did Brown act as an intermediary between you and KU or you and DeSousa?"; "Towsend never said he doesn't tell Self about these matters, correct?"; "Was the fact that payments were made by Adidas to athletes something that head coaches were aware of?"; "Was there a don't ask, don't tell type of policy on these issues?"; "Who is the man in charge at KU?"; "If Self said "no, don't do that", you would have complied, correct?"; "So Self could have ultimately stopped this, correct?"

Let's ponder another angle for a moment.

The top players are going pro after one year in college. There's no question they are going to get paid. I think we all agree on that.

Silvio De Sousa is not an automatic pro player. He may play in the NBA one day, but its hardly a sure thing. I think we can all agree on that.

So why were schools paying for a player like De Sousa? Well, because whether he ever makes the pros or not, chances that he is a good college player are almost assured. I think we can all agree on that.

So who are the players that are most susceptible to being paid? The guys that are sure millionaires in a year may get paid, but they are getting paid either way. But the next tier down, the for sure good collegiate players/maybe one day pros are the guys that can round out rosters and perhaps help get a team over the hump, to the title. The maybe one day pros don't have the guaranteed pay day coming like the top guys do. A quick $50K or $100K might be tempting because they aren't going to be a lottery pick in 12 months. It's arguable that their value will never be higher than as a collegiate athlete.

The danger for the NCAA is not the top of the pyramid. It's the middle.

I seriously doubt our roster is complete.

I will be shocked if we don't add anyone else.

@HighEliteMajor

The FBI and DOJ MO has always been to start with the little guy, squeeze him and move up a level at a time until they reach the real target. Outside of the schools that deal with Adidas, Gatto is relatively a nobody and I don’t believe for a minute he is the real target. Hard to believe that Adidas was doing this in isolation and the other shoecos not doing the same thing. If Adidas is the only one targeted, the investigation would loose credibility; there is definitely a major agenda afoot that we don’t quite know yet.

@justanotherfan said:

So why were schools paying for a player like De Sousa? Well, because whether he ever makes the pros or not, chances that he is a good college player are almost assured. I think we can all agree on that.

I don’t believe school were or are paying players, shoe companies are.

Looks like I'm not alone on Moore, I was starting to wonder. Thanks a couple guys on the phog. Anyway I bring this up because this guy mentioned the Italy stats and they are pretty bad, against that rancid competition. So I went to look at his total combined stats...and remember KU beat one of these teams 118-74 w/o Doke.

12-29, 5-13 from 3, 10 rebounds (not that much is expected here), 15 ast, 7 turnovers* and 7 steals (not sure how telling this is since KU had multiple games around 20 steals...).

*He had 2 games of 6 ast 1 turnover and two rancid games.

I think Dotson needs to start or KU is in trouble.

drgnslayr said:

I seriously doubt our roster is complete.

I will be shocked if we don't add anyone else.

Completely agree.

@BShark

The Italy numbers can be misleading. If you check, most of the players had very good and very poor games as a result of playing a new system with very little practice. Moore has been learning the system for one entire season and I am sure that he has gotten much better as he became more familiar as some of the reports appear to indicate. It would not surprise me to see Moore start at the beginning of the season and have Dotson take over once he is more comfortable with the new system. At the start of the season Moore will have a higher floor but no doubt Dotson has the much higher ceiling.

@JayHawkFanToo What reports? Everyone I know with a good track record is not positive on Moore.

He is tiny and will be abused on defense. I'm thinking Iowa State hunting on Svi level D assuming opposing coaches figure it out. Add in the fact that he is a below average offensive player overall to boot. Sometimes KU players aren't actually good. Moore reminds me of Tharpe.

I think it's worth any potential growing pains with Dotson to start him right away. He has a lot more potential.

I figured I'd do a breakdown of all the players that are for sure on the team next year. Doke and Silvio would be in the first group.

Players I am high on next year and long term

Dedric

KJ

Dotson

Grimes

Garrett

I need to see more/see them play at the D1 level

McCormack

Agbaji

Good roleplayer but hopefully not starting

Mitch

Moore

Ideally they never play

Cunliffe

If Dok or Silvio don’t come back my expectations go way down.

@BShark

It was posted in KU forums including this one that Moore was playing great and was practically “unguardable” in practice. I don’t recall who posted it by maybe that poster can chime in?

dylans said:

If Dok or Silvio don’t come back my expectations go way down.

Defense and rebounding could be better w/o Doke.

JayHawkFanToo said:

@BShark

It was posted in KU forums including this one that Moore was playing great and was practically “unguardable” in practice. I don’t recall who posted it by maybe that poster can chime in?

I was hoping they would expand on that after the initial comment but it never happened. Because that's the first I've heard of anything of the sort.

As long as Dotson still has both of his feet working by fall he will start IMO. He wasn't recruited for the bench, either was Grimes. This is the new age

BShark said:

@JayHawkFanToo What reports? Everyone I know with a good track record is not positive on Moore.

He is tiny and will be abused on defense. I'm thinking Iowa State hunting on Svi level D assuming opposing coaches figure it out. Add in the fact that he is a below average offensive player overall to boot. Sometimes KU players aren't actually good. Moore reminds me of Tharpe.

I think it's worth any potential growing pains with Dotson to start him right away. He has a lot more potential.

Well said and I agree. Dotson should start from Day-1. It's the only way the team finds its potential through the season

@JayHawkFanToo

Fair statement. ShoeCo's are clearly paying. Schools may be paying.

But the whole idea is to get continued exposure for the "brand". Having a school advance an additional round is another 2 hours of "free" advertising for the brand, whether that's the school, the ShoeCo or other sponsors.

Either way, if a guy might help move the needle in March, he's worth something.

@justanotherfan Schools don't pay for basketball players because most basketball programs already operate in the red.

Schools are going to be connected to football players through boosters.

I assume they mean a person working for an university directs payments from boosters. Not that the money comes from the school budget.

Well, this is all just parsing details. The schools and shoe companies are partners by contract, right? Adidas pays KU to wear its gear. Why would Adidas pay a kid to go to KU? It helps KU. Not shocking. It is inexorably tied to the shoe deal and the partnership. DeSousa plays for KU. Adidas benefits. KU benefits. Under the current indictment theory -- the "benefit" from the payment ensnares the universities. I don't see how that's avoided.

It's what makes the characterization in the indictment of the school being the victim a bit laughable. Of course, it's the monolithic "school" as the victim, as referenced in the indictment. The various actors from the king (Self) to the peasant can be separated from the victim -- just wonder where that line is? By the way, the chancellor is below the king.

Edited .. probably wrong thread now that I look at it. I'll repost another spot.

Let's keep remembering who we are dealing with here... the "Riverboat Gambler!"

Bill still has an ace or two stuck in his boot.

Something is going to happen somewhere, and we have a quality team next year, just could use a few gaps plugged.

BShark said:

@JayHawkFanToo What reports? Everyone I know with a good track record is not positive on Moore.

He is tiny and will be abused on defense. I'm thinking Iowa State hunting on Svi level D assuming opposing coaches figure it out. Add in the fact that he is a below average offensive player overall to boot. Sometimes KU players aren't actually good. Moore reminds me of Tharpe.

I think it's worth any potential growing pains with Dotson to start him right away. He has a lot more potential.

Following up on my own post, a poster on the phog in contact with a former player (I'm pretty sure it's Elijah) had this to say:

"Per ex-player that plays with the team, Moore is good, tough, well liked and can stroke it from deep (although says it’s a funky shot).
Also said Moore is from easily the shittiest neighborhood of anyone on the team and has seen some fucked things. Looks like a Choir boy but not the case."

JayHawkFanToo said:

@BShark

It was posted in KU forums including this one that Moore was playing great and was practically “unguardable” in practice. I don’t recall who posted it by maybe that poster can chime in?

That was me that said that about Moore. I heard it from someone that gets to watch practice quite often and is close to the program....

Hey there Jayhawks fans. Long off season ahead of us and Im wishing we had a chance to see our boys play this summer somewhere.
Anyhow, thought Id chime in. Everyone seems to think its a foregone conclusion that Silvio is gone. Im not convinced until I hear otherwise. Either way, I think we are fine without him. Doke IS coming back and we have McCormack and Mitch

I was worried about not getting Langford but we will be fine there too. Garrett with a year under his belt and a whole summer to work on his shot and his strength is more desirable to me.

We are going to be Deeeeeeep next season. forgettaboutit.

I just hope that Coach Self uses that depth and doesn't trim the bench to 2 or 3 deep when we can easily go 5 deep

Lulufulu said:

I just hope that Coach Self uses that depth and doesn't trim the bench to 2 or 3 deep when we can easily go 5 deep

I'd bet on a 3 player regular bench rotation.

@BShark Any possibility we can give one of our walk ons a Schollie?

Didn't we just get a walkon commit from someone like yesterday?

Lulufulu said:

@BShark Any possibility we can give one of our walk ons a Schollie?

Didn't we just get a walkon commit from someone like yesterday?

Yep, I made a thread for him.

I bet the last scholarship gets used.

Also you hearing anything on Doke or just hopeful?

@BShark Im just hopeful. I mean, hes not ready yet. He needs another year at KU. Hes not even listed as a second round pick RN is he?

Woodrow said:

JayHawkFanToo said:

@BShark

It was posted in KU forums including this one that Moore was playing great and was practically “unguardable” in practice. I don’t recall who posted it by maybe that poster can chime in?

That was me that said that about Moore. I heard it from someone that gets to watch practice quite often and is close to the program....

Thank you. I hope he is indeed kick ass good.:smile:

They'll win the Big12 and get to around the sweet 16 is my prediction, my very early prediction.

I also predict someone on the roster will accept a free ice cream cone from shoe dude and the NCAA will investigate for 2 months despite the fact that the kid at Duke and Kentucky got 12 free ice cream cones.

I also predict that there will be more handwringing conversations about "this whole NCAA mess". And nothing will happen.

Expect to see a MCDA game where the players just wear Duke or Kentucky uni's according to the school they're going to.

I can foresee 1 announcer per day gushing about K and how great a recruiter he is.

I can foresee 1 announcer per day gushing about Cal and how great a recruiter he is.

@BShark just me I've just though Devon would always start - -never felt Moore would start - - maybe I'm the crazy one

@BShark Let's see - -is this Moore comparable in size to the Nick Moore? Right from SMU that played with us when we was representing the USA? - they are both about the same size weren't they?

jayballer73 said:

@BShark just me I've just though Devon would always start - -never felt Moore would start - - maybe I'm the crazy one

I'm all aboard #TeamDotson

@jayballer73 He is more a comparable size to Frank. I believe Nic Moore was on the wrong side of 5-9

I'm not as connected to the program as many of you, and I come on this board for the great conversations and insight but this threat seemed a bit harsh in regard to Moore, so I Googled and found this article which presents him in a pretty good light:
http://www.kansan.com/sports/charlie-moore-uses-year-of-ineligibility-to-improve-learn-from/article_e099ac44-dac6-11e7-a294-43e1142997b3.html ↗
I'm going to keep my fingers crossed and root for the kid!

@bcjayhawk great write!

I posted this before.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Mr._Basketball ↗

You don't get to be Illinois Mr Basketball by sucking.

Dok will be back and is using his invite to the combine to gather info as to what he needs to work on b4 next year. If Self thought Silvio would be ruled ineligible then he would have declared for the draft. Both should be back. Moore is a stud and I have posted my thought on that b4.

Silvio is 19 and he graduated in 2017. He would be eligible for the draft.

Statmachine said:

Dok will be back and is using his invite to the combine to gather info as to what he needs to work on b4 next year. If Self thought Silvio would be ruled ineligible then he would have declared for the draft. Both should be back. Moore is a stud and I have posted my thought on that b4.

You thought Vick was coming back too. ;)

@Statmachine I like your logic on Silvio. I hadn’t thought about him declaring if Bill didn’t think he’d be eligible.

Wendell Carter with the rare helicopter Mom

@BeddieKU23 She's probably not a Kanye fan.

Here is another good story ↗ about Moore.

@JayHawkFanToo I'm excited to see him.

@Crimsonorblue22

Me too. He has a little of Mason and a little of Collins and both turned out rather well for KU.

JayHawkFanToo said:

Here is another good story ↗ about Moore.

I mean it's another fluff piece like the UDK one. Hopefully I am wrong about him, I will withhold further posts regarding his play until he plays a game for KU or there are more rumblings about his play over the summer.

@BShark

I am curious why you seem to think Moore is not good or I should say not good enough to be excited. The City of Chicago alone probably produces more players than the 20 bottom states combined; you are not selected Illinois POY unless you are very good. He did have a very good season playing in the PAC 12, a major conference, and I would think that after one year in the KU system he would be even better.

@JayHawkFanToo I certainly think he year at Cal was overblown. He was OKAY there.

@JayHawkFanToo @Crimsonorblue22

@BShark gotta like this kid! You still doubt?

@Crimsonorblue22 I like him, video there looks good and he sounds tough. I worry about his ability to defend. Just want to see him play games in a KU uniform at this point.