🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Ok. just read this off the shiver. - - - A thread was brought up about the possibility of the big 12 reaching out making contact getting in with Arizona & Arizona State about possibly them joining the Big twelve - establishing ground work before these new TV contracts come up. Then a couple of people mentioned about possibly throwing WV a bone and asking Cincinnati again - -the reply to that part was for the most part was - - -Screw WV - -some others talked about seeing if possibly Colorado might want to consider coming back with Arizona and Arizona St

Now this is or alot of this was even mentioned was that I guess more talk about the Pac twelve and their problems and sounding like more of continuence of them falling apart - -their football programs and theirlack of representation in the football playoffs and such, I guess I think it was if I remember right Pat Forde that wrote an article about the big 12 cuddling up to Arizona & Arizona state because of this and again before the new TV contracts and such and be ahead of others if and when this happens.

Ya I know and they know that the Big 12 decided against expansion a little back - and chances are very good that this will never come to light , BUT like I said it's a slow time for the KU roundballer fans right now and maybe some conversation pro's - - - con's - -they are taking a survey where you can vote on it on the article on shiver right now and presently like 10 minutes ago it was running 81% in favor of adding compared to 11% not in favor 4% not sure 2% - in favor of adding Arizona but not Arizona State & 2 % in favor of adding Arizona St but not Arizona.

For me myself I voted in favor - - mainly a lot because I would like us to return to the natural Big 12 and I really do not want to see the Big 12 dissolve . - but it would kill me if it didn't happen - which again I fully realize this won't but hey might make for some past time conversation - what you think ?

I'm okay with us going to 12 teams as long as we can continue a double round robin. Otherwise... forget it.

I just can't see us going west. Time zones become a much bigger factor, and it just spreads the Big 12 brand identity too thin.

There is a good reason why Colorado left.

@drgnslayr I guess if they were to be added the conference teams would have to shorten their non con by two then right - to be able to have the 2 game round robin - I agree with you. --I just don't think the Big 12 can stay like it is , or we for sure are gone in a very short future

I have said it before and I will say it again, 10 is the best number for a conference, 9 football games and 18 basketball games are the optimal numbers. The Conference is doing very well financially and I just don't see much of a movement to add teams. The Conference is now contemplating having a series with the Big East in basketball, similar with what it has now withe the SEC; I think it would be really good for both conferences.

Adding the Arizona schools would place the conference in 3 time zones and would increase travel costs quite a bit. Frankly, I just don't see the conference doing this or the Arizona schools wanting to leave the PAC12.

I like 10, but would be okay with 12 if the Big 12 were to add either Cincinnati and Louisville (unlikely) or Memphis. The Big 12 really needs to bridge the gap between West Virginia and the rest of the conference geographically.

As @JayHawkFanToo says, it makes no sense to expand west unless you drop WVU.

Big 12 expansion has to go east, and the only schools that make sense going east are Cincinnati, Memphis, and then smaller status schools like Tulane, Southern Miss, UAB, Houston, Rice, etc.

Pac 12 time zone is not conducive to good TV ratings. I could see why they'd want to leave.

10 is the easiest number scheduling wise, but with all the other P5 conferences having 12+ teams, 10 teams doesn't equal survival.

Based on what Fox and ESPN told the Big 12 about expansion last summer, it's not going to happen.

Should those networks ever reverse their minds, I would still argue the Houston and Cincinnati have to be the top two options.

I've lived in Houston for 25 years, and the Big 12 is an afterthought in football recruiting at this point in Houston. Almost all of the elite recruits go to SEC schools at this point. Getting UH into the Big 12 opens up Houston recruits to the Big 12.

Having Tom Hermann at UT should help, it having UH in the Big 12 would help more.

I know most don't want another Texas school in the Big 12, but Houston is legitimately the best realistic addition the Big 12 could get.

I see no way the big 12 survives after the current media contract is up without adding teams. A good number of people think OU and Texas are headed to the SEC. I think adding 2or 4 teams would be smart, to be honest i thought it was stupid to add wv, they have a tiny media market and give nothing academically. I’d add Cincinnati, Houston, Memphis and a smaller school like Tulane or Southern Miss.

@kjayhawks The Big 12 won't survive because ESPN and Fox don't want it to survive. The networks made that very clear when they denied the Big 12 adding teams by telling the Big 12 they wouldn't amend the current TV deal.

What's going to happen is the Big 12 will get absorbed into the other P5 conferences after the current TV deal is up. Then when the current CFP deal is up a couple of years later, they will expand the CFP to 8 teams which will be a much cleaner thing to do with only 4 major conferences.

The Big 12's only real hope of surviving beyond the current TV deal would be if NBC came calling and offered a contract that allowed for the Big 12 to expand to 12 or beyond.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Or if the Pac12 falls apart as it looks like it may as well. They aren’t doing well at all; missed the college football playoffs and no one watches their basketball because it’s so late. Too many teams has watered down that conference.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Ok, I guess I'm not understanding this. You have concluded that ESPN and Fox want the Big 12 to fail -- meaning implode -- because they didn't want to amend their existing contract and pay more if the Big 12 added two more teams?

Why would that reaction by the networks lead to the definitive conclusion that they want the Big 12 to fail?

@dylans Basketball has very little to do with conference realignment. It's still a football driven decision and the PAC 12 is in much better shape in football than the Big 12 is.

The College Football Playoff is the biggest moneymaker in college athletics for the networks and ESPN and Fox have committed themselves to that.

P12 and B12 basketball will not impact those negotiations when they happen in a few years.

The biggest issues for both the P12 and B12 in football right now is that their marquee programs are not title contenders right now. The B12 has been on a downward slide since 2009 when Texas lost to Alabama and the league hasn't recovered since then. The P12 has struggled ever since USC went on the decline. In college football, you have to have your marquee programs in contention every year. The SEC was down when Alabama was struggle big time in the late 90's and early 2000's. It wasn't until they started to rebuild that the SEC went on their title run. The ACC was thought of as an afterthought while FSU was down. If FSU doesn't recover like last year, the rest of the league including Clemson will regress.

Don't forget that during the last go around, the ACC was a league that many thought wouldn't survive and it was because FSU was not in a good place at the time. They've recovered and the ACC is now neck and neck with the SEC as far as the best overall conference goes.

Back to the B12 and P12, USC is working their way back into title contenders which if they do that before Texas, the P12 will survive and the B12 will be the one to bite the dust.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Did you forget about Oklahoma? Pac12 football is irrelevant these days as well. That was my main point. Oregon is their only playoff representative (once) and they aren’t going back anytime soon. Stanford is lagging, UCLA sucks, USC is overrated and couldn’t get it done with a top rated QB.

So if PAC 12 football sucks worse than Big 12 football and PAC 12 basketball is completely irrelevant. Why would they out live the Big 12? The Big 12 has higher revenue per school. OU has been in the playoffs 2 times. The Jayhawks is a nationally recognized and unique brand.

I’ve been concerned in the past as well, I just think my worry was a waste of time. Mega conferences lose their identity. They ultimately get watered down to the point of having poor crowds which eventually has an affect on the viewership and even school attendance. Even if the Big12 goes away (I don’t think it will) KU will be just fine due to national brand recognition.

@HighEliteMajor This article and several others like this explain why ESPN and Fox were angry with the B12 for looking into expansion.

https://www.outkickthecoverage.com/espn-and-fox-angry-with-big-12-expansion-080116/ ↗

Reading that, it should be pretty clear why ESPN and Fox want the B12 dead. Basically, ESPN and Fox don't want to own up to a bad deal they made with the B12 and are using their power to say they won't even renegotiate with the B12 if they expand. The B12 could've expanded 2 years ago and told the networks to pay up, but that wasn't a legal battle they wanted to get into so despite being able to, the weakness of B12 leadership has prevented the B12 from doing so.

A strong B12 leader would've looked at the upgraded that UH and Cincy have done recently to their facilities (football stadiums in particular) and told ESPN and Fox to "watch this" as they build UH into an 8-9 win B12 team and occasional title contended like OSU is and made Cincy a regular 6-7 win team and made those programs worth the money that ESPN and Fox would be paying them by the end of the deal.

The Big 12 should've been aggressive the first time around. Because they were reactive instead of proactive, they lost the ability to control their own destiny.

Maybe they will be able to change the course in the next round, but lack of action at the outset continues to haunt the conference.

@dylans So Washington didn't make the CFP in 2016? I just imagined that one?

The P12 has had 2 different teams make the CFP just like every other P5 conference except the B12.

@Texas-Hawk-10 You totally imagined that. Or I simply Forgot about Washington’s great year. Probably because I don’t care about the pac12 like the rest of the country.

@dylans You do know that 1/8 of the entire U.S. population lives in California right?

Did you also know that 7 of the top 25 biggest media markets are in P12 country and only 3 of those are in California?

I think it's more that you don't give a crap about the west coast as opposed to the rest of the country because the evidence sure doesn't back up your statements.

There are enough people on the West coast to keep the Pac12 as a Power Conference. The issue is the Big 12. Outside of Texas, the Big 12 conference footprint does not have a top media market in it.

While Kansas is a strong basketball program and Oklahoma is strong in football, neither of those states has the population to drive regional or national viewership.

One of the reasons that Nebraska left the Big 12 was to gain affiliation with some larger markets. Same for Mizzou. The Big 12 just doesn't have the population within its footprint to command larger TV deals.

I know we complain about the lack of coverage nationally at times, but the truth is there isn't as much national interest for what is going on in the Big 12. That's part of why I didn't mind ESPN paying so much attention to Trae Young. The Big 12 needs whatever national attention it can get because there aren't enough people in Kansas, Iowa, West Virginia and Oklahoma to drive conference revenues up to compete with the other power conferences.

The big12 was the number one (tv) viewed basketball conference last season.

@dylans Most 3rd tier bowl games draw bigger TV ratings than any regular season college basketball game.

Most people don't pay any attention to college basketball until March and because of that, TV deals for college basketball don't even live in the same neighborhood as football TV contracts.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Doom and gloom, much? It’ll be fine. And if it isn’t life goes on. Sports matter nil, so enjoy the ride. But if worrying about this is your form of enjoyment don’t let me step on it. Worry away, have a blast! I clearly can’t cheer ya up.

@dylans Don't know where you're pulling doom and gloom and me not being happy about the reality that the Alamo Bowl outdraws a Duke/UNC basketball game from, but if making baseless accusations floats your boat, then have it.

It’s an art form for ya.

@Texas-Hawk-10

The article you cited is very poorly written and by someone with little understanding of how contracts work in the real world. The Big 12 and the networks have a valid and binding contract and the networks can scream all they want but does not change the fact that if the conference expands they will have to pay more money as clearly spelled out in the contract. If they wanted to pay less based on who joined the conference they should have including that wording in the original but they did not; they had competent legal counsel and just because they miss calculated revenue is not a reason to contest the contract. No question the conference would prevail in court.

The reports of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain.

The reports of the potential death of the Big 12 are grossly exagerated and self-serving by the MSM that favors the coastal programs and could not care less about what they call fly over country. The conference is in excellent financial shape ↗ and all the gloom and doom reports about its imminent demise are indeed greatly exaggerated. The conference has been the best in basketball for the last few years and just about evey football program not named KU is doing well to very well.

@jayballer73

I think it is easy to look at the Big 12 and imagine "failure."

But while we focus so much attention on the Big 12, we then don't focus as much on other power conferences and their problems. I believe they have plenty of issues

A double round robin schedule is crucial... otherwise the conference winner is largely decided by that year's schedule instead of the best team.

@JayHawkFanToo ESPN paid the B12 $10 million extra over the remainder of the contract to eliminate that clause. Fox didn't do anything because they knew the B12 didn't have the guts to follow through because of the fear of what would happen next go around.

@Texas-Hawk-10

Looks like the Big 12 got the $10M from ESPN for doing absolutely nothing ↗ which is exactly what it planned to do in the first place and it still has Fox Sports as a backup in case it changes its mind since at the rate ESPN is losing customers it might be out of business in the not too distant future.🤗

@JayHawkFanToo Like I said isn't any akin off my - - - - but the Pac 12 sure sounds like is in some trouble, - -and the Big 12 is far far from solid ground it'self - I can't count how many times people have talked about the Bid 12 dissolving - -and KU going to the Big 10 - - like the title says I'm just passing conversation.

Very true , however IF and I say again IF the big 12 were to expand - we could still add Arizona and Arizona State and have a true round robin - -thing is though you would have to reduce your non con

@jayballer73 i live out here on the west coast trust me them zona schools aint going no where they dont wanna play in the mid west for 1 and for 2 most of the West Coast recruits stay on the west coast it would have a huge impact on their recruiting playing against West Virginia and Iowa State

@jayballer73

I get that lots of people talk about the Big 12 being in trouble but the reality is that the conference is in very solid financial shape and revenues have increased every year and by and large the members seem to be satisfied with the current status quo and the business model seems to be working just fine.

@JayHawkFanToo

The Big 12 is okay now because their contracts are not up yet. When it comes time to renegotiate, that's when we will all find out if the Big 12 is still in good shape. My guess is that the Big 12 will be looking to expand before they start renegotiating in order to strengthen their negotiation position. If the Big 12 doesn't negotiate a good long term deal to follow up the current contract, then the conference is in trouble.

@jayballer73

Pac 12 is not in trouble. They control every TV west of the Rockies. Having all of the major schools in the most populous state in the country is huge for revenue. While we may not stay up and watch here in the midwest, all of the people in the following top 30 metro areas are within the Pac 12 footprint:

Los Angeles (2)

Phoenix (11)

San Francisco - Oakland (12)

Riverside - San Bernardino (13)

Seattle (15)

San Diego (17)

Denver (19)

Portland (25)

Sacramento (27)

Las Vegas (28)

That's 10 areas in the top 30 where the Pac 12 is the dominant collegiate conference. That is huge financially. The Pac 12 has nothing to worry about. Their member schools have no interest in leaving for time zone reasons. They can expand if they want with no challengers and grab University of Nevada, BYU, Boise State, UNLV, San Diego State, etc. with no issue. They could not expand and not face any other challengers from that group.

The Big 12, in comparison, has Dallas - Fort Worth (4), Houston (5), and Kansas City (30). One of the reasons I advocate that the Big 12 add Cincinnati is that the Cincinnati Metro area is actually #29 right now. Although there are a lot of Ohio State fans there, Cincinnati has a huge following locally there in town. That's one of only two markets the Big 12 can tap into right now. The other, of course is Memphis (#42), right behind Oklahoma City.

West Virginia doesn't have an MSA in the top 100 - there are portions of West Virginia included in the Baltimore and Pittsburgh MSA's, but West Virginia itself does not have anything higher than #148. Iowa clocks in with Des Moines at #88. Wichita is #89. Tulsa is #54. Every other high ranked MSA is in Texas. For the Big 12 to ultimately hang on, the conference must eventually add Cincinnati and Memphis, or the conference will be pushed out of relevancy at some point.

@ReggieKansas they might not have a choice with the Pac 12 crumbling like is being reported

@jayballer73 its not going any where bro again ive talked to a few people out here that are alums asu and au are gonna be in the pac 12 I as much validity as I give the Big 12 disbanding in a few years

I just don't see the risk right now of the Big 12 vanishing. Yes... we could eventually lose OU. And losing Texas would be the best thing ever for us because of the Longhorn network and the grotesque spending of the Longhorn AD. They represent a testament that just blowing money doesn't create success. But they also put a question mark by the Big 12 because why isn't Texas more dominant?

What would help Kansas and the Big 12 is if Kansas could get back to playing football again. Kansas is truly an eyesore... not only for the conference and for our school... but a national embarrassment! The Big 12 should not house one of the worst D1 programs in the nation! Kansas has to get this fixed.

Everyone seems to be overlooking the only apparent reason for questions about the Big 12's viability going forward.

Clearly, its a money making machine and clearly its schools and fans are happy with its sports product.

The only reason I can glean for doubting the Big 12s viability moving forward is the perceived desire for a 4 power conferences to fill out a 4 team playoff in football, and maybe to fill out a four team final four, depending on how skeptical one is about the extent to which the March Carney is driven by entertainment values.

There is of course another solution that is never talked about, but which could generate more money for everyone and solve the problem of four playoff slots for 5 power conferences and 4 final four births for five power conferences.

The problem could be enlarged, as my old professor used to say.

Eight power conferences could be designated, football could be expanded to an 8 team playoff, and the March Carney could go on its merry way unimpacted, because it already has an Elite Eight that fits.

There is now so much money in every state and in every conference, and in every school, that it would be no problem to dilute the concentration of football talent by spreading it among eight power conferences, instead of concentrating it in 5, and then picking 2 programs in each of the 8 designated power conferences to play the role of the two "football schools" that every power conference already has. No one has to give up being a designated "football school." No one has to give up being in a "power conference." Quite the contrary, 6 more "football schools" in three more power conferences get to be created, and everyone wins.

This is the American way to resolve the problem that the age of concentration has stupidly burdened college sports with.

College sports can grow its way out of this problem with expansion.

Expansion works in all professional sports with cartel advantage, which is exactly the case in college sports, same as the NBA, NFL, and major league baseball. NCAA D1 is a cartel of athletic departments. They don't have competitors. They don't have to lower prices to water down the competition with expansion. Making the NBA, the NFL, and major league base ball worse for several decades with expansion actually helped increase market share and revenues, even as the quality of competition lessened. Cartels don't have to worry about product quality and they don't have to worry about price. And the NCAA cartel doesn't even have to worry about salaries with student athletes. The petroshoeco-agent complex seems to have the under the table incentives worked out. And tuition and books and board and food and so on are government subsidized and never significant costs that can't be paid by the tax payers. And the alums and petroeshoecos pick up the tabs for the expensive coaches.

So expand already!

You're a cartel. Act like one.

Wasn’t the big 12 tourney(maybe final game) the most watched game of all conference tourneys?