🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Doke is coming back.

I know it's a big "what if" but what if Silvio is cleared?

What if we recruit a good, experienced grad transfer shooting guard (or big man if Silvio isn't cleared) and others for added experience?

What if Devon returns?

Marcus, David, Ochai, Mitch.... returning with more experience.

Am I missing something? Couldn't we suddenly go from darkness to light? Might we have a very experienced, talented team that could easily play in April next year?

Might this team carry a chip?

The unfortunate reality might be that the light at the end of the tunnel may be the proverbial on coming train, in the form of the NCAA, and a tourney ban.

I struggle to have any sense of positivity until that mess is done.

But on the court? I like your thinking. We are literally two players away -- Tucker and SDS.

Hampton would be a hell of a consolation prize if we do miss on Tucker. I know we hate OADs here, but Hampton plays with a Russel Westbrook type intensity. He might not be much of a shooter, but him and Dot would be fast break machines.

2019 still could be a flawed team. If our incoming freshmen don't add perimeter shooting, this team will still struggle. While Doke is a tremendous player, he's still a limited player (not great defensively, only an average rebounder for his size).

I guess what I am saying is that there is still a long way to go to make sure next year's squad is not fatally flawed like this year's squad was. Shooting and athleticism are still at issue, particularly on the wing. If we don't get a big, athletic wing that can shoot (really, we need two of those unless Braun is one) then we basically have last season all over again, and without Dedric. That's a Sweet 16 peak.

Now if we add some star power on the wings, then we have something. But that is still to be determined. There's still a lot of tunnel left before we step into the daylight.

@HighEliteMajor

Is it possible the heavy penalty on Silvio represents the final penalty on us? A whisper came to me that the Silvio challenge by us is a message that we will litigate the NCAA if they go for tough sanctions.

My question for the whisper is... perhaps the NCAA was testing the waters on us by laying down the heavy penalty.

I don't think people realize how vulnerable the NCAA is these days...

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/26199067/judge-rules-ncaa-antitrust-lawsuit ↗

It seems to me that we are just a few situations away from having a real contending team next year.. possibly a lot bigger threat than what we had this year (during the early season hype).

justanotherfan said:

2019 still could be a flawed team. If our incoming freshmen don't add perimeter shooting, this team will still struggle. While Doke is a tremendous player, he's still a limited player (not great defensively, only an average rebounder for his size).

I guess what I am saying is that there is still a long way to go to make sure next year's squad is not fatally flawed like this year's squad was. Shooting and athleticism are still at issue, particularly on the wing. If we don't get a big, athletic wing that can shoot (really, we need two of those unless Braun is one) then we basically have last season all over again, and without Dedric. That's a Sweet 16 peak.

Now if we add some star power on the wings, then we have something. But that is still to be determined. There's still a lot of tunnel left before we step into the daylight.

Braun definitely isn't it for next year. I think he is at least two years away.

And I wouldn't bank on McBride for any more than 10 mpg. He may have to play more, and if that is the case I don't think it's a good sign.

When I see the name McBride, all I can think of is Bake McBride, of the many legends of 'fro from the 70s.

!alt text ↗

@HighEliteMajor Great outfield in Philly those years with him and the Sarge

And Greg Luzinski if I recall correctly .. a man that should have been an AL DH.

I don't think there is much of a chance that KU gets penalized because of Silvio's situation with his guardian. Since I'm currently at work, and I"m sure many of you are too, I'll be brief.

If KU (Coach Self, Townsend, etc.) had a tendency to act outside of the rules, then they would have played Billy Preston after his automobile situation. The fact that they sat Billy all year when they needed him on the court so badly shows that KU's program was and is going by the rules. So, I will bank on the idea that they had no idea about Silvio's guardian taking money from Adidas.

Did Coach Townsend have an inappropriate conversation with an Adidas rep about Zion Williamson's recruitment? Yes, absolutely. But that doesn't mean that KU accepted any benefit form that one recruiting situation. However, Duke may have through Nike.

The Billy Preston situation speaks volumes about KU's principles and practices. Billy was the Jayhawk in the coal mine, and the Jayhawk flew out of the mine unscathed :) Rock Chalk!

I have seen two preseason polls for next year today after players committed and they had KU ranked #3 and #9. Those are both assuming Dotson comes back. I think the doom and gloom of next year is greatly exaggerated.

Woodrow said:

I have seen two preseason polls for next year today after players committed and they had KU ranked #3 and #9. Those are both assuming Dotson comes back. I think the doom and gloom of next year is greatly exaggerated.

Dot and Doke alone can carry a lot of the burden. Big Dave and Ochai are above average "secondary" players. Mitch and Garrett are solid rotation guys.

It's far from doom and gloom from me. Doke being back changed everything for my 2019-2020 expectations.

I agree with @SlickRockJayhawk. I don't think KU is at risk for more penalties. They have been hit with a huge player penalty already. Unless Arizona, Oregon, Louisville, Maryland, LSU, etc. are all getting hit with significant penalties as well (all 2019 NCAA tournament teams) it is doubtful the NCAA comes down on KU because it would wreck the tournament going forward to ban that many major conference schools.

That being said, if @BShark and @Kcmatt7 are correct that Braun and McBride need more time before they are ready to contribute in a significant way, then the roster is still pretty flawed. There's not much shooting on this team. Agbaji is the best shooter in the rotation. You're still dependent on Doke inside, and without a guy like Dedric, there's not much offensive firepower on the block, either. You're basically hoping Devon Dotson morphs into Cassius Winston and next year's squad is some version of this year's Michigan State team. But that depends on Dotson taking a pretty big step forward.

@drgnslayr Am i in La-La land or was it just about one week ago that we were all contemplating throwing in the towel on KU basketball because we could never get any good commits?

justanotherfan said:

I agree with @SlickRockJayhawk. I don't think KU is at risk for more penalties. They have been hit with a huge player penalty already. Unless Arizona, Oregon, Louisville, Maryland, LSU, etc. are all getting hit with significant penalties as well (all 2019 NCAA tournament teams) it is doubtful the NCAA comes down on KU because it would wreck the tournament going forward to ban that many major conference schools.

That being said, if @BShark and @Kcmatt7 are correct that Braun and McBride need more time before they are ready to contribute in a significant way, then the roster is still pretty flawed. There's not much shooting on this team. Agbaji is the best shooter in the rotation. You're still dependent on Doke inside, and without a guy like Dedric, there's not much offensive firepower on the block, either. You're basically hoping Devon Dotson morphs into Cassius Winston and next year's squad is some version of this year's Michigan State team. But that depends on Dotson taking a pretty big step forward.

From what I have seen if Braun gets more than Tyler Self minutes we are in big trouble. I could be wrong but I just don't see it happening with him early.

McBride could be okay with a smaller bench role. At this point he is a pure 2G and needs to improve his handle and work on his lateral quickness before he can get big minutes.

We definitely need some additions and I don't think Enaruna moves the needle for next year (but is absolutely a take). Grad transfers seem like the best option, I'm sure Self will figure something out.

Kcmatt7 said:

Dot and Doke alone can carry a lot of the burden.

Hell yes. Dotson can get in the paint at will. Drive and dish to Doke all day long.

Man, I'm SO stoked Doke is coming back. Crossing fingers he can stay healthy for the entire year.

@BShark really? Hmmm I thought he was much better than tyler

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@BShark really? Hmmm I thought he was much better than tyler

I mean obviously he is a better basketball player than Tyler Self. I just hopes the minutes are similar his first year in particular. Needs to add muscle big time.

Just when the light was disappearing, Doke turns it back on. Now the question is: would we rather have Doke for one year or Hurt for a year??

@colohawks I vote Doke for a year for sure! If he has improved his short-range shooting even just a little bit, we are talking about a POY candidate.

@colohawks Doke 10/10 times. He's such a dominant force in the game that you can't not take him.

I think we need at least one more guard, probably 2. Tucker is the biggest target left out there, Hampton second. I like RJ a lot, but he doesn't really move the needle as far as floor spacing. He's also a really bad rebounder. Tucker does everything we need at a high level: elite athlete, shooter, and has experience in KU's system (Dooley). He'd catch on quicker than most. Hampton would take awhile since he wouldn't be a part of the offseason program.

I would absolutely take both and both would start from day 1, but Tucker is the bigger need right now. If Ochai develops his handle he could slide down to the 2 but I like him a lot better as a true wing.

@FarmerJayhawk Thanks for the heads-up on Tucker. Sounds like he has always shot on the 40's percent from three his whole career. Gotta like that!

His point production went way up from Florida Gulf Coast to Arkansas Little Rock, going from 7.7 ppg to 20.3.

Known for his power dunking and three point shooting. I can see him lobbing to Doke and vise versa.

The Doke vs. Hurt question is hard. Hurt would help space the floor a bit, and that may be next year's fatal flaw. Not saying Hurt will out-produce Doke next year. But from a pure basketball fit perspective, the lack of shooting on this team could be its doom. Whether they are ready or not, Braun and/or McBride may have to play just to provide some shooting. That may hurt us on the other end, but I'm just not sure how this team functions as currently built if they do not add some shooting.

On the other hand, Doke will almost certainly be further along in his development and commands automatic double teams in the post, something Hurt may not do. But the flip side is that I'm not sure we have guys to punish constant doubling of the post. Doke commanding lots of double teams simply may not matter if we can't make teams pay for leaving people on the perimeter.

That's a long way of saying I don't know, but also that @FarmerJayhawk is right. We desperately need floor spacing for KU to be a top 10 team next season. Without it, we are a good, but flawed team that probably peaks as a Sweet 16 level squad.

@colohawks Please never mention "Doke" and "Hurt" in the same post again.

Can we get Doke to do granny style free throws? Guaranteed major improvement.

@justanotherfan I think Doke is actually a below-average rebounder for his size. He's almost always the biggest and strongest man on the floor. Should be grabbing more boards. I'd love to see the same enthusiasm for grabbing rebounds as he has for dunks. Huge opportunity for improvement. That and free throws, of course. But I am thrilled he's coming back, obviously.

Anybody ever wonder if dokes wrists would be stronger if he didn't hang and pull his big body up on the rims?👀 maybe we should put a red shirt on him in practice, like qb's.

@DanR I am sorry to temper the Dok euphoria slightly with the reality that he has shown zero ability to play a full season. If the glass man breaks again, all the positive mojo of his very welcome return turns into another roster scramble. Especially if there us no SDS.

@nuleafjhawk Now that was clever!!

I like the Doke return because I like the kid. I think he tries hard and he cares. If we didn't have kids I like I wouldn't watch. My heart wants Doke to dunk all over everyone. But my brain is nagging me....

I don't like the Doke return because I want guys without major flaws. I thought his departure would be the end of an era. Now it seems that era continues another year. If we play Feed The Doke (and assuming he doesn't develop a passing game) will our other guys stand around and watch him either collect 2 points, get hacked and brick FTs, or get double teamed and cough it up? Will Big Dave develop? Will he play with Doke, or be designated the "other 5" by Self, while Mitch collects the bulk on the minutes at 4 and SDS languishes in ineligibility at the end of the bench? Will we become dependent upon Doke just in time to lose him for the post season?

Doke only works if there are other pieces, and those other pieces are used appropriately.

I'm glad for the kid, and I will root for him, and I think we can be pretty good. But I think I take Self's common descriptor of his teams literally more now that ever. "Pretty good." Not great.

DDot returns, Rayjon Tucker is what people claim he is, SDS gets reinstated and Doke stays healthy, then I might dream we have the talent to win it all.

But I still want to see the pieces fit. and see Bill put them together.

We've lost by double digits the last 3 years in our elimination game. And I think about the players we had in 2017 and 2018. Frank, Devonte, Svi, and Newman (in tourney) were all great shooters. I mean GREAT shooters! It wasn't enough. This last season we ended up ranked 17th in the AP, 16th being our previous worst under Self, his first season (and we know how dysfunctional Self was with that team). These are troubling times for Bill Self. Adapt or perish times.

@Fightsongwriter REALLY? This is the time you pick to play the reality card? Just give us a day or two to bask in the probability of greatness.

@Fightsongwriter - 3rd time is the charm! Let’s call him “destroyer”....

“These are troubling times for Bill Self. Adapt or perish times.”

I don’t understand this comment. Would you elaborate?

I have heard that Zeus Jackson is seriously considering KU.

If Zeus Jackson, who is - greek mythology not withstanding - related to Adonis Jordan joins KU along with Poseidon Thomas then it is all good!

Marco said:

If Zeus Jackson, who is - greek mythology not withstanding - related to Adonis Jordan joins KU along with Poseidon Thomas then it is all good!

Can Zeus shoot the 3?

@approxinfinity

The return of Doke hits McCormack the most.

Neither can play the 4 so you limited to when Dave can be on the floor if Azubuike is staying out of foul trouble and impacting the game. Self is probably going to use Azubuike as his pun intended "center piece". It's going to be tough for Dave to get consistent minutes next year if Doke is healthy and playing 25+ minutes a game.

It's a good thing Dave came in as a likely 4 year player because while the competition will help him in practice, the lack of game minutes is going to stagnant his development that he'd get having starters minutes.

If I'm Dave I'm spending my entire summer working on my shot. We heard some grumblings he had a developing 10-12 foot jumper a few times in the season. I say he works all summer long expanding his shooting range. If the kid can develop a 3 ball or at least a mid-range jumper he offers something Azubuike cannot provide.

@approxinfinity

That's why its key Self adds shooters that are going to be apart of the rotation. One at minimum, 2 would be even better. Self has 4 spots to sell even if De Sousa and Dotson are eligible and return to school. I say max out the roster and get at least 4 more guys in here that can shoot and compete

@nuleafjhawk Sorry I am a 1 on the eneigram!

I hope @Gorilla72 is right.

@approxinfinity

One last added thing about Doke.

I think we tend to focus on his weaknesses a little too much. I'm guilty as well. His bully ball game in the post is definitely a throw back to past generations. Self will incorporate the lob back into some regular set plays with him back. After his injury we lacked a real above the rim threat in the worst way. Nobody was throwing D Law a lob with his jumping ability (or lack of). The guards now have the ability to just throw it up.

Azubuike is a guy that can get his own shot. While he's dependent on a post entry he will be used a lot when we need points. A guy that can make 70% of his shots. I don't think we could put Charlie Moore's, Quentin Grimes & Marcus Garrett %'s together and get 70% shooting. That part of his game is so underappreciated. I never would have thought when he came to KU he'd be this efficient at what he does.

Having said all that its Self's job to fit the pieces around him. It's his job to sign some kids that can create floor spacing and stretch the court. He has a 1st team PG and 1st team C and everything in between needs to be planned to fit and compliment those two players. If he wants Azubuike's impact to max out he needs to bring guys in that will maximize that opportunity

@BeddieKU23 Dave was still an All-American. I'm not sold that he's thinking he's a 4 year player. Hope so.

I definitely focus on Doke's weaknesses, but I'm trying this year to be realistic about where we stand, relying somewhat on others to speak of the positives re: Doke :)

4 guards and Doke. Let him smoother with screens and run to the rim. Backside cuts, flares, and lobs with the other guards. David would fit this role as well. I'm not sure how I'd feel about them both on the floor. Clog city.

@BigBad You can run a sparkling offense with two back to the basket bigs. Conscious of spacing, angles, etc. The dilemma for defenses is that if you sag and help toward the other big, a big can take two or three steps and post up, choosing his own angle. That's a major threat you can't concede. It's much different than having a 4, for example, that is not a true threat to post up. Our example might be Traylor. Zero shooting ability. He was a true clogger because the way to guard him was to sag off .. because his threat was driving. Teams killed us sagging off of Traylor. I think defenses welcomed any of his attempts to post up. He was no threat there.

Sure, I'd rather have flex out 4 that can post and shoot. But we don't have that. And I'd rather have Dave on the floor as second big, than Garrett as a fourth perimeter player.

Self won't do it. Self is way too married to his man--to-man, and he doesn't have the fortitude to force teams to match up with him. This can work with a 3-2 zone (and our perimeter defense would be better -- I guess it can't get worse).

@BeddieKU23

We probably do put too much emphasis on KU's weaknesses (I know I do), but that is because that's what will end our season. You can focus quite a bit on strengths when you have a team that you don't expect a national title out of. You know you are going to take some losses, but can enjoy the rest. When you have championship aspirations, those marginal things matter.

Think about the Royals for a second. Their bullpen is awful, and the starting pitching is pretty suspect. The lineup probably isn't productive enough in the lower third. But because this is, at best, a 70 win team, the fact that they may win 5 or 10 fewer games because of those specific weaknesses is kind of irrelevant. You can just enjoy Gordon being a savant in left, Mondesi's speed, Soler's power, etc. This isn't a playoff team, so blowing games here and there doesn't matter as much.

If the Royals were a contender, any one of the flaws I listed above would be all we could talk about because the starting pitching, bullpen or weak lower third of the lineup could be the team's ultimate undoing. But this team isn't good enough for those flaws to derail them because they don't have enough strengths yet. We bemoaned Yost's tactical mistakes in 2013-2015 because that was something that could have cost a really talented team a chance at the mountaintop.

That's where KU is, except it's an every year thing. We have a chance at the mountaintop, which highlights flaws rather than emphasizing strengths.

Adidas deal being finalized can't hurt, just saying.

approxinfinity said:

@BeddieKU23 Dave was still an All-American. I'm not sold that he's thinking he's a 4 year player. Hope so.

I definitely focus on Doke's weaknesses, but I'm trying this year to be realistic about where we stand, relying somewhat on others to speak of the positives re: Doke :)

I feel confident saying Dave is a different type of All-American that had different expectations coming in. He wasn't always a top recruit and it wasn't until he changed his body, won a championship on his AAU squad and played on a loaded Oak-Hill team did he get recognition that some carry their entire HS career. This is a high character kid that comes from a good family and values his education. My expectation is he stays all 4 years and leaves a beloved Hawk

@BeddieKU23 Yes, he can - bigtime! An absolute inside/outside monster.

BeddieKU23 said:

approxinfinity said:

@BeddieKU23 Dave was still an All-American. I'm not sold that he's thinking he's a 4 year player. Hope so.

I definitely focus on Doke's weaknesses, but I'm trying this year to be realistic about where we stand, relying somewhat on others to speak of the positives re: Doke :)

I feel confident saying Dave is a different type of All-American that had different expectations coming in. He wasn't always a top recruit and it wasn't until he changed his body, won a championship on his AAU squad and played on a loaded Oak-Hill team did he get recognition that some carry their entire HS career. This is a high character kid that comes from a good family and values his education. My expectation is he stays all 4 years and leaves a beloved Hawk

Part of the reason that Big Dave wasn't an elite recruit until very late in his career is that he was never an elite athlete and, until late in his HS career, wasn't all that refined as an interior player. That meant that he wasn't on a lot of radars until much later on. Big Dave was just another big kid until he worked on his body and refined his skills inside. He's not an athletic freak. That, along with the changing pro game, means he's probably here for three years, if not four anyway.

@justanotherfan

Also true, his game picked up as he lost weight and shaped his body. His hard work and determination has him on the right path still. He was sitting around the Top 100 before his transformation really kicked in at Oak Hill. By the end of his Jr year on AAU he was up into the Top 50. Had a strong AAU season, won an Adidas title. Oak Hill probably helped him make the burger game in a down recruiting year. Wasn't a deep position group either.

Hopefully he isn't deterred by Azubuike's return. These are the type of situations soft kids tend to run away from

In a good class Dave is somewhere around 60-80. Honestly he is the kind of program big that I think we want/need.

Watching biggus davus, he looks like a bull in a china shop... he throws himself around with hyper-abandon, and looks very raw in his skills. To me he doesn’t look athletically refined at all and I wonder how much of that is improvable in 3 remaining years he would have here. obviously lots of drills and repetitive practice should hone his moves and touch, but I personally wouldn't be surprised if his offensive skills top out a bit above the the Landen Lucas level

A few thoughts after reading through all of these comments. Great stuff from everyone by the way!

1. Doke being back is the best news I have heard from a potential loss to pro sports since Devonte said he was coming back. Devonte is obviously the far more dynamic player and leader but Doke is a unique talent and his senior year will be special if he stays healthy. I'm excited to see him dunk on people. His dunks are as powerful as you will see at the college level.

2. I love Big Dave and what he brings. I actually think there will be odd times where he is in the game at the same time as Doke. That will be a big and lumbering group but we have seen it work in recent years. The UNC vs. Zaga final a couple of years ago comes to mind. It won't happen often but it will happen. I plan to be talking about Big Dave a lot all season long.

3. Devon is back. Let's be honest. He is not on any draft boards. He is going to come back and be the BMOC at KU. How do you do anything other than stay at KU and improve your stock? He could be one of the top 5 PG's in the country next year. Maybe work his way into a 1st round guy. Control the tempo of the game. Play great D. Improve your 3 point shot. Throw oops to Doke. Draft stock will go way up.

4. Speaking of coming back. Is there any chance Grimes is back? Who drafts this kid? He has zero NBA level skills. He might be our biggest OAD dud ever. At least one who played. Throw the guys who sat the bench due to NCAA rules out of the equation. Maybe Selby was more of a bust? It really is hard to imagine how he makes a pro roster even if it is outside of the NBA.

@joeloveshawks I know little of basketball strategy, but advanced stats suggest Garrett was actually better than Grimes. Addition by subtraction possibly.

@dylans Well said. I am not even sure I would want Grimes back now that you mention it. At least Garrett is a lock down defender when healthy. He might be the only top 10 kid we have ever had that I literally forgot was on our team half the time. I would be an hour into a game and think to myself "who is that guy" and then say "oh, it's Grimes, man he sucks" somewhat often. Passive on offense. Can't dribble. Can't take it to the hoop. Very streaky shooter. Occasionally missing from the stat sheet. Maybe we should just move on. Sad that his one stop on the way to playing professional ball (wherever that may be) didn't do anyone any good, including himself.

@joeloveshawks All jokes aside, I did that myself! Caught myself on several occasions saying, "damn, is Grimes finally waking up?," only to realize - after he had burnt the red shirt - that it was Agbaji. I called it early on, Grimes as a complete bust. He plays heavy, has no true basketball quickness and does not have a good handle. His midrange game is non-existant, and his three point shot needs alot of work. His defense? Hardly none, doesn't move his feet fast enough and looks heavy. His skill set was vastly overrated by the prognosticators. Does he think that the NBA is going to draft him and let him work on his game for several years from the comforts of his own driveway while getting paid to ride the pine? I don't get it, but am glad that he is leaving.

@Bosthawk

I'm thinking if Big Mac hustles in practice like he hustles in games... he will show considerable improvement every year he comes back!

I'd like to see him in dance lessons. He mostly needs footwork.

My biggest hope for Dave this season is the game slows down for him. He was always in hyper active mode. Even a simple post entry he'd make difficult. You can't question his effort out there. Sitting behind Doke another season doesn't accelerate the hopes I have though. We'll see. He'll provide quality depth which we need desperately

@drgnslayr Interesting take, dance lessons. That would probably work.

@Marco

Dance lessons are definitely the best tool for anyone needing help with footwork since it completely focuses on footwork.

I think many would be surprised about this next comment... the NFL has been onto this for decades! People don't realize how footwork is so vital to that sport. The league has recognized dance as a key training component.

Dotson

Hampton

Garrett (for me Agbaji would start but idk with Billy)

Silvio or Holyfield

Udoka

Immediate bench

Agbaji

McCormack

Lightfoot

Development bench

Enaruna

Braun

McBride

Is probably getting back to winning the B12 and would definitely be a FF threat.

@BShark One important item — we have to sign someone first.

Starting Garrett over Agbaji would be a sick joke. But Ned plays Chris Owings and Lucas Duda, so there are sicker things.

@BShark What do you think? Personally, I think I'd prefer Holyfield over De Sousa.

So, first the Bulls rumor was squelched.

Now: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26634254/popovich-negotiating-new-contract-spurs ↗

Not that I think the Spurs would turn to Self but obviously that will always be a rumor due to Buford.

Everyone is talking about us getting both Hampton and Walker. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't they both PGs? I don't think that we'll get both. Do think that we will land Hampton or Walker (whoever commits first and I think it will be Hampton) and Tucker, though.

Marco said:

Everyone is talking about us getting both Hampton and Walker. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't they both PGs? I don't think that we'll get both. Do think that we will land Hampton or Walker (whoever commits first and I think it will be Hampton) and Tucker, though.

Walker isn't really an actual PG. He's a BIG power guard.

He's a PG in the same way Wayne Selden was a PG. Definitely more a 3 than 1.

@Marco

Won't hurt to have a guard that can facilitate as well. Position less Basketball