🏀 KuBuckets Archive

slayr .. great stuff. Schulman said Tuesday after a Duke drive and score that it wasn't quite as easy to play defense when Withey wasn't there to guard the rim. Very true. I was about to say that I didn't think that Embiid would ever be the shot-blocker Withey was, then I remembered that Embiid was a freshman. When Withey was a freshman, he was plotting his Arizona exit to the greener pastures of Lawrence .. and looked like a lost soul once he did get on the court.

You mentioned Withey not leaving his feet early. That's really the key to the great (tall) shot blockers. Just stand there. Wait.

It's like a linebacker pursuing laterally. Stay a step behind the running back. You'll still make the play. You just won't permit the cutback. Same here. You avoid the foul, may not get the block, but it's a more reliable formula.

Excellent read. Thanks for posting. Now kusports.com needs to get someone like you to contribute a few times per week ...

Frank Mason. Electric. Tough. Under control. The dude knocks down 11 of 12 free throws on a big stage. Fearless. No turnovers. Heck, Shulman and Vitale got the cue cards pre-made, referring to Mason as a “bulldog” at all the right times.

Ranked 131st with Rivals when he committed to Kansas, Mason jumped up to #76 by the final rankings. By comparison, Tyshawn was #77; Tharpe #92. Mason, at #76, was obviously not a highly ranked player. Not a guy you’d expect to come in and contribute significantly in his first season at a place like Kansas. His signing was dismissed to a large degree. The afterthought in the class. It might be a bit premature, but maybe, just maybe, KU scored a direct hit on a player that was not near its top choice. Maybe we got a player that will absolutely blow away his ranking. Has that ever happened for Self while at KU? And no, you can’t answer “Brady Morningstar.”

I am a rankings guy – that’s no secret. I’m sold. The logic of it sells me. I have bought into the undeniable probability of success related to the rankings. I’m not a “hope” guy. I’m an “odds” guy. I want to know the percentage chance of success. I base my life on that. Most of you may remember this … Robin Smith on the kusports.com site gave a great rundown of the players that exceeded their rankings from 100 – 150 range over a 5 year period. He was, I think, trying to refute my point on rankings. But he suddenly became my buddy. When looking at all of the names he found, it worked out to be 13.3%. Right, only 13.3% of those players, over 5 year period, exceeded their rankings. Some guys nit-picked it. Found a few more supposedly. So maybe it’s 14.1%. Whatever. Score one for Rivals. You really don’t expect guys in that range to be top starters, and certainly not for Kansas.

You’ve heard it before on Mason. He wasn’t KU’s top point guard choice. Probably our 7th choice, really. Andrew Harrison, Kasey Hill, Rysheed Jordan, Anthony Barber, Demetrius Jackson, and Chris Jones all said “no thanks” to Kansas before we settled on Mason. He was the last resort back-up plan.

One of the beauties of the kusports.com site is that all of the homers come out to play on commitment days. When Mason committed, we heard “diamond in the rough”, “Self pulled one over on everyone”, “rankings don’t matter”, “a gem”, “Self saw something in this kid” – someone I recall posted “Wow, so excited.” I’m sure that was a woman. And the best one was the comparison to Sherron Collins. Heck, Bedore did an article on the claimed comparisons. But really, most who posted were skeptical. I was just cynical.

But why was I cynical? I was like Pavlov’s dog. I’d been conditioned. Actually, I was just flat out scarred – scarred by the horrors of low-ranked signings of the past.. I had been through the postings following the Thomas, Appleton, Traylor, Anderson, Lindsay, Lucas, Adams and Doyle commitments. Each and every one of them. Adams was Dwayne Wade, right? Traylor was another TRob. Someone saw similarities between Lucas and Markieff. Ugh.

Heck, I sat and debated with some guy who said he was Milton Doyle’s brother for goodness sakes. Told him his brother would end up transferring. Felt bad about that. Still do. I tried to explain to him it was nothing personal, but I think he said he wanted to “cap my a**” in a post, before it was deleted. Something like that (probably led directly to the Facebook policy, so I apologize).

But the critics of the signing, me included, weren’t necessarily wrong, per se. I mean if you’re up by six with the ball, and 10 seconds to go, you don’t jack up a 3. You’re not right because it goes in. This signing was a stretch at the time. The #131 player. The fact – the undeniable truth – is that Mason was Self’s backup plan multiple times over. If Demetrius Jackson commits, there is no Frank Mason. If Chris Jones says yes, Mason is at Rutgers. But all that doesn't matter now.

As someone posted today, that I read -- “let’s not crown him yet.” Fair enough. Let’s not. But he isn’t who we thought he was, right? He will have ups and downs, I’m sure. He might have 5 TOs in a game. He might go Tyshawn on us from time to time. Norm Roberts sounded like he was a bit surprised by Mason’s play when he spoke today on the radio, saying that Mason throws it around the gym a bit every so often. So we’ll see. But he looks fantastic so far. He’s got the look of the perfect point guard.

The start of the season is seriously as good as Christmas ever was when I was a kid. New presents everywhere. This guy might be the best surprise of them all, with four full years of enjoyment.

So does this change anything? Should this lower ranked guy bursting on the scene alter our perspective of things? Nope. Not at all. Rivals still rules. Mason just appears to have beaten the odds. And it’s an absolutely beautiful thing.

To answer the headline question: Yes.

I posted on this on another thread. Embiid needs to start, and play 30 minutes per game. Harnessing his talent can change this team exponentially.

One big number from last night - 5. As in 5 assists.

I'm not down on Black. He seems to be doing what he did at Memphis. And he seems to be producing as the Memphis fans said he would. He is not Joel Embiid. He will not play in the NBA. Black can provide leadership, etc. -- perhaps as the first big off the bench. Black's rebound rates were lower than Kevin Young's. To be honest, Traylor has looked better. But not a big enough sample size.

Self will not play guys for development sake, if it might cost us a game. Embiid seems like the perfect risk right now -- meaning he seems like the better player right now, doesn't look like he'll cost us vs. Black, and his upside can propel this team, literally, to a national title.

30 minutes, each and every game. In two months, you'll see a difference.

A few things:

1. Ellis was stellar. Watching ESPN and Fox Sports after the game, I was beginning to wonder if those 24 points appeared magically out of thin air. But I'm quite sure Ellis doesn't care one bit if he gets mentioned. CBS's top 100 college players prior to the season did not include Ellis. Again, I doubt that he cares. ELLIS led KU last night.

2. Mason is the real deal. Holy crap. It's not just calmly knocking down free throws, but the complete confidence, steady ball handling, and guts to take the ball to the hoop. We have two deserving starters at point guard. I'm always banging the drum on rankings. This guy is a top 50 player. I have continued to give Keegan and a couple other posters at kusport.com some gruff about the Mason starting or being better than Tharpe thing, but I think I'll stop that now ...

3. Self switching to small lineup won the game. I wouldn't have done that with Tharpe and Mason. I didn't think Self would use Tharpe and Mason much together really. I would have been more apt to slide Greene in for a post guy to go small. We went real small. Sounds like from his post game interview, Self hadn't thought about it much before either. But great move. Also, going with one true post player for stretches was a terrific adjustment. This all goes to the point we've discussed over the years .. it's much harder for a bigger team to adjust to a smaller, quicker team, than the other way around. We've seen it multiple times where we've had to go small. The contrast to that is where our size wore down Carolina in last year's tourney.

4. Andrew White not playing much surprised me. Really odd. Maybe he did something in the game to tick off Self. But maybe another explanation -- last season Self explained that White didn't play because of his inferior ball handling. Not sure that's a big deal at the 3. But Self related it to not having a lot of ball handlers -- translation, our 2, McLemore, couldn't handle pressure. Last night, it was a much smaller game, so to speak. Don't know if that was it, but seeing Greene in more than White was real interesting. Maybe Greene is a better ball handler. Don't know. But it's the best I can come up with. We'll see how that plays out. Greene is an assassin.

5. Embiid needs to start. He needs to be the post player, after Ellis, with the most minutes (or equal). Play him now. Start him now. Let him learn how to avoid fouls. We have two inferior opponents next week anyway. Get the dude massive minutes. 20 was nice. 30 is, well, nicer. He is the difference maker this season. Look at one very important stat ... assists. This is HUGE. Embiid had 5 assists in one game. Black had 6 in one full season a two seasons ago as a starter. Embiid's passing in the post is a big bump to the offense.

6. Frankamp didn't even really play. No surprise. Also no surprise was the extremely tight rotation. This is our insight, just like MSU was last season. Seven guys with double figure minutes, and one of the seven has fringe rotation minutes -- 13 (Traylor). He played all eligible scholarship players. That's true. But Lucas, Frankamp, White, Greene, and Black combined for 19 minutes. Black had foul trouble. If he didn't, Embiid and Traylor each may have played less. And perhaps Ellis would be down to 30 minutes from 35. But a tight rotation is better.

7. Selden is a tough one. Not flashy. Just good. That odd player that blends in a bit to me. Excellent game and a perfect .. absolutely perfect .. 2 man. Or 3 guy when we went small. Seemed to be pretty darn solid defensively, but I have to admit, I had a tough time critiquing defense last night with guys obviously trying to avoid fouling. Weird.

And we have to wait a week for another game?

@truehawk93 - I have liked White (perhaps to a fault) since he hit campus. Banged that drum a lot last season (and I know it irritated more than a few). But that was mainly related to his shooting/scoring ability.

His transformation is amazing. I watched video of Greene and quite frankly, I was concerned that White wasn't that sort of athlete. I think a lot of folks had that concern, too, thus the transfer chatter.

But White is transformed. The absolute poster child for Andrea Hudy and hard work. I was most surprised that White appears lighter on his feet and more agile. I had referred to him as a plodder. I won't any more.

White was the most impressive player in my opinion last Friday. He looks great.

I love Greene too .. but if he can only muster 3 minutes vs. ULM, does he even get in the game?

I think it's even odds that Greene and Frankamp don't even play. Much like Adams and White last season vs. MSU. This is a good gauge on playing time. Against MSU, Self played 7 guys (and KY and Wesley got a combined 10 minutes as the 8th and 9th guys).

There just isn't a lot of PT to go around, unless the refs create it with the foul calls.

By the way, this B.S. I heard from Bilas and Decoursey. I watched the replay of the MSU game vs. McNeese on BTN. No way that game was refereed the same way. Not even close. Hands, pushing , etc. No calls on most of it.

McNeese had 9 total fouls, MSU 12.

@Blown - konkey had suggested that Frankamp redshirt next season vs. this season, when we discussed this last week. With those perimeter players, I see why.

Hey .. if we get Alexander, Turner, or Okafer .. just one .. this is an absolutely huge win for coach Self. Just one of them. He has a perimeter stud in Oubre. If Okafer or Alexander signs, we have zero recruiting worries and can talk about games, etc., and forget recruiting for a while.

I think it's an interesting suggestion that Turner would start over Embiid. No way I can refute that. I would simply revert to the tried and true "Selfism" -- experience is a trump card. But if Turner's talent, or better yet, his polish, is better than Embiid, I could see it too.

I am very excited to see Embiid's progress this season. With a top 10 draft spot in the offing, he won't be here next season (@truehawk93 is dead on there). I really believe that his progress will help dictate our assent this season. We need Embiid to be a force.

Self will go real hard after Turner if we whiff here. If that happens, I personally don't see Turner coming if Embiid and Ellis stay. Top 5 guy and he wouldn't start? I don't know about that. But if Embiid goes, that would make Turner a "must have" -- maybe as important a recruit as we've had in a long time. Because missing on him would leave us flailing in the post.

As for Jones, I am just not interested. I like our perimeter players. Don't want to mess that up. Period. Wiggins/Selden leave, we still have the best perimeter in the country next season. Mark that one down.

If either Embiid or Ellis does not return, we have a huge hole in the post. Ellis seems to be a lock to return. Both leaving is a nightmare scenario. Let's skip that and focus on Embiid.

I'd rather have Embiid return than land any of the three big men. A year in our system is the best scenario. But is that likely? He's projected top 10. Not likely in my mind.

If we don't get one of the 3 (Alexander, Okafer, Turner), and Embiid leaves, we are left with an incredible talent vacancy in the post.

When you analyze this, take off the crimson and blue colored glasses. Don't assume we just win games without talent.

Traylor is not a high talent guy. He's going to make incremental gains. Good in his role this season -- 4th post man. Lucas is the odd man out this season in the post. He didn't get one minute against ULM. That says a lot. The anti-monster, or anti-load. Self, when talking about Frankamp's possible redshirt, oddly referred to Lucas -- saying we can't redshirt him because we did last season. That's where he is in the pecking order. And Mickelson, line drive shot and all, is an unknown. Did not show much in the Saturday scrimmage a few weeks back. What we do know from his Arkansas time is that he's not a difference maker. No reason to think he's better than Traylor right now. But let's assume that he is. Still not what I would say an adequate starter for Kansas -- not Kansas State, or Iowa St. -- but for Kansas. Can't imagine that he's significantly better than Traylor.

Traylor, Lucas, and Mickelson are all bodies. Could they develop into something better? Sure. But as of now, based on what we've seen and know, they are bodies. To be frank, guys that should never start at KU. Could the best of the three be an adequate rotation player, 15-18 minutes? Sure. And a 4th a 5-8 minute non-rotation guy. Sure. But 30 minute per game starter. No way. Not from what we've seen.

Self has them for an emergency. He has them really only if we absolutely need them. And he'll continue to recruit over them so that we don't need them in a major role. Fourth rotation guy, that works.

I do hold out hope that as they develop, they'll get better. But we're talking next season.

Since we are on the OAD merry go round, assuming Ellis stays, we need only one next season -- Embiid or Okafer or Alexander or Turner. Just one.

If Embiid leaves, and we don't get any of them, it's a big issue. We are Kansas, and Self is a great coach, but think about why he's focused on OADs in the post? Because they are the top talent -- and talent wins. And our prior recruiting misses have put us in this pinch. We would be in a double pinch next season. We have Ellis in one spot. That's secure. But the pinch comes in spot #2 if lose Embiid and miss on the big 3 -- no immediate impact guy (OAD), and no high talent guy (a #15 - 60ish) that has been developed into the role, as we have seen before (Marcus, Kieff, TRob, Withey, Aldrich).

This also creates a scenario where all three (Lucas, Traylor, and Mickelson) would have to play as part of a four man post rotation. Ugh.

Is all lost if we lose Embiid, and miss on the big 3? No. Of course not. There are senior transfers like Black to fill in (but high talent guys just aren't there -- Black is about the best you could hope for). Could we get a semester transfer? Maybe.

But most likely, we would be banking on major improvement from all three of our low/unranked post depth guys. I just wouldn't want to roll my dice on that.

Welcome to life on the OAD merry go round*.

*Thanks, ParisHawk, for this very appropriate term.

If either Embiid or Ellis does not return, we have a huge hole in the post. Ellis seems to be a lock to return. Both leaving is a nightmare scenario. Let's skip that and focus on Embiid.

I'd rather have Embiid return than land any of the three big men. A year in our system is the best scenario. But is that likely? He's projected top 10. Not likely in my mind.

If we don't get one of the 3, and Embiid leaves, we are left with an incredible talent vacancy in the post.

When you analyze this, take off the crimson and blue colored glasses. Don't assume we just win games without talent.

Traylor is not a high talent guy. He's going to make incremental gains. Good in his role this season -- 4th post man. Lucas is the odd man out this season in the post. He didn't get one minute against ULM. That says a lot. The anti-monster, or anti-load. Self, when talking about Frankamp's possible redshirt, oddly referred to Lucas -- saying we can't redshirt him because we did last season. That's where he is in the pecking order. And Mickelson, line drive shot and all, is an unknown. Did not show much in the Saturday scrimmage a few weeks back. What we do know from his Arkansas time is that he's not a difference maker. No reason to think he's better than Traylor right now. But let's assume that he is. Still not what I would say an adequate starter for Kansas -- not Kansas State, or Iowa St. -- but for Kansas. Can't imagine that he's significantly better than Traylor.

Traylor, Lucas, and Mickelson are all bodies. Could they develop into something better? Sure. But as of now, based on what we've seen and know, they are bodies. To be frank, guys that should never start at KU. Could the best of the three be an adequate rotation player, 15-18 minutes? Sure. And a 4th a 5-8 minute non-rotation guy. Sure. But 30 minute per game starter. No way. Not from what we've seen.

Self has them for an emergency. He has them really only if we absolutely need them. And he'll continue to recruit over them so that we don't need them in a major role. Fourth rotation guy, that works.

I do hold out hope that as they develop, they'll get better. But we're talking next season.

Since we are on the OAD merry go round, assuming Ellis stays, we need only one next season -- Embiid or Okafer or Alexander or Turner. Just one.

If Embiid leaves, and we don't get any of them, it's a big issue. We are Kansas, and Self is a great coach, but think about why he's focused on OADs in the post? Because they are the top talent -- and talent wins. And our prior recruiting misses have put us in this pinch. We would be in a double pinch next season. We have Ellis in one spot. That's secure. But the pinch comes in spot #2 if lose Embiid and miss on the big 3 -- no immediate impact guy (OAD), and no high talent guy (a #15 - 60ish) that has been developed into the role, as we have seen before (Marcus, Kieff, TRob, Withey, Aldrich).

This also creates a scenario where all three (Lucas, Traylor, and Mickelson) would have to play as part of a four man post rotation. Ugh.

Is all lost if we lose Embiid, and miss on the big 3? No. Of course not. There are senior transfers like Black to fill in (but high talent guys just aren't there -- Black is about the best you could hope for). Could we get a semester transfer? Maybe.

But most likely, we would be banking on major improvement from all three of our low/unranked post depth guys. I just wouldn't want to roll my dice on that.

Welcome to life on the OAD merry go round*.

*Thanks, ParisHawk, for this very appropriate term.

On the Popeye thing from above -

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=popeye+i+yam+what+i+yam&FORM=VIRE2#view=detail&mid=A0472FE77D2C7745AC74A0472FE77D2C7745AC74 ↗

Paris - Bilas simply assumes that all of the refs are calling everything the same way. He obviously didn't see the KU game Friday. Bilas is good guy, but his take there is just plain ignorant. It makes perfect sense that in the early stages implementing the new approach here, that there will be significant differences in degree. And as noted by imajayhawk, conferences will be different, too.

It is never as easy as "stop fouling" as Bilas said. A foul is not a foul unless the ref blows his whistle (as many officials are very willing to tell you).

A few things from last night:
1. We weren’t “feeding the post” to Ellis. Ellis shot the ball a whopping five times. I will guarantee you that when Self looks at the stats, this will jump out to him. I liked the 8 free throw attempts, of which (I believe) 2 trips to the line were shot related. But getting the ball regularly to Ellis on the block seems an absolute necessity. He needs to take double figure shots nearly every game.

1. Wiggins just didn’t hit the boards. Three rebounds. And in 34 minutes, do you really remember this 6’8” guy fighting for boards? This should be the other stat that stands out to coach Self.

2. Count me in the group that thinks Frankamp should have redshirted. After watching him last night, I feel even more strongly than before. He is not a ball handler, or a point guard. Not close. Look at Self's post game comments. It would appear that he feels that way. They rarely even practiced, he said, with any point guard other than Tharpe or Mason. So much for the combo guard myth, right? If we need a shooter off the bench -- which I lobbied for with White last season -- Greene is at least an equal choice to CF, but perhaps better because of his size. And I don't expect Self to go with the "shooter off the bench" concept anyway. Foul trouble based on the idiotic new "rules" is the only thing Frankamp can hope for. He may not even play vs. Duke.

3. By the way, can we all stop hallucinating about Selden as a point guard? Me included -- it is enticing to consider with his size. Sure, he can PLAY point guard – so can Perry Ellis -- but he is not A point guard.

4. Lots of chatter since the end of last season about Lucas' role. He didn’t even play one minute last night. That tells us all we need to know. I understood the desire to see a savior, or a diamond in the rough, or the unranked guy that surprises. Lucas is such a likeable guy, too. He’s just not ready to be what we want him to be – yet. Self captured Lucas' role best a few days ago when discussing a possible CF redshirt -- unsolicited, he brought up Lucas and said we can't redshirt Landen because he already redshirted last season. Strictly a blowout or emergency player this season. But he has lots of time left here.

5. I am solidly in the “show-me” category with Tarik Black. Bad free throw shooter. Slow off the ground for rebounds (he did have 7 last night). I would say it this way -- this is what I would assume Jamari Traylor to be when Traylor is a senior. Black is an adequate body. An absolutely necessary body. The 5th best starter. The 11th best player of the 12 scholarship players available. Glad we have him though. We do need the body. And he was better than Traylor last night.

6. Zone defense. Did you see it? The 3-2 is back! Wiggins up top, in the middle, ala Brandon Rush. God bless America.

7. An 8+ rotation last night even vs. ULM. With the 9th guy getting 11 minutes. No Lucas, Greene 3 minutes, no Wesley. Would it be a surprise to see Mason be the 9th guy with 10ish minutes, no Frankamp, Tharpe with 30? Embiid will probably get more than his 11 minutes last night.

8. If you watched the “Jayhawk Network”, is Billy Thomas perhaps the worst in-studio guy ever? I felt bad for the guy. The funniest comment was when he was talking about Greene being a shooter, and then said that the “white kid” was pretty good too .. did he mean “white kid”, or “White kid”? Either way he was right.

What a terrific post here. My thoughts exactly. I was driving back from watching the game and thought .. what the hell was that? "Painful", as you said. Hard to watch. No flow. Dominated by the referees' whistles.

The pursuit of the National Championship begins tonight. That is really the pursuit of the number one seed. First things first. Of last 25 national champions, 18 have been #1 seeds. The margin of error may be thin this season to get one of those top seeds.

One game at a time. Just win.

I am still not over the end of that game ... I have spoken with a few folks, and debated with some posters, who seem to think "give it to EJ and let him drive" was acceptable. Will never understand it.

The DVR is great .. but the wife can get annoyed easily when I use it. I tend to pause when she starts to talk. I tell her I'm really wanting to pay attention to her. That's one version. The other version is that I simply don't want to be interrupted watching the game. That's version she obviously suspects.

Moral of the story -- don't talk during a KU game. I can't pay attention to footwork, ball reversal, outlet passes, etc. when anyone talks.

Yea, but when the season is on the line, just clear out and let EJ drive to the basket.

It will take a long time to get over that one.

Just my view here, but I enjoy college basketball and the style of play. Tweaking the block/charge rule is really all that was needed. But that call will always be controversial.

I just liked the game the way it was.

If I were head of the NCAA, the only thing I would focus my attention on is using whatever leverage I had to convince the NBA to permit high schoolers to be eligible for the draft, and not require one year post grad. Let the OADs be OADs. Then, using the baseball rule, that if you go D-1, you're not eligible until after your junior year.

On Embiid, he needs to do what all shorter players hate .. what Withey did. Just stand there. Don't buy the fake. Just stand there. Then react to the shot, and swat.

Pretty good point by kD on perhaps redshirting CF next season. Selden stay, or we get Jones, CF's situation doesn't change. But he's there as a safety net for Mason.

I sent ict a direct message from the kusports site and will do the same with Oak.

I know I may be repeating some other observations -

1. Traylor/Black/Embiid: Really, I thought Traylor looked better than Tarik Black. Traylor was a quicker leaper and more active. Black seemed very inactive on the boards, meaning he really wasn't challenging for a lot of balls. I paid a lot of attention to him and just wasn't that impressed. Traylor was just better than he was last night. And so was Embiid in my opinion. But it's just one game - so I'm not "down" on Black. Memphis fans have said that while Black looks the part, that he'll disappoint. And don't forget those rebound per minute ratios that were well below Kevin Young. But we'll see. If I had a worry coming out of the game, it is with our post play. And that could be an issue next Tuesday.

2. Mason: I was thoroughly impressed. Opponent, of course, could have something to do with it. But it's not like Ellis or TRob scoring down low over inferior guys, or smaller players. Mason had command of the floor, handled the ball well, plainly was able to see open players and deliver the ball. He made contested first passes without problem, made a couple nice post feeds into small openings. Obviously not a dead-eye shooter. And, of course, Tharpe looked great. We're well taken care of at the PG spot, it appears.

3. Greene vs. White vs. Frankamp: White has looked impressive, but something tells me Greene is and will be right on his tail. I see from Self that there may not be a redshirt. But it does make sense for Frankamp. I go back to Frankamp's value now vs. his 5th year, and that although Self may say he could help us win a game, the likelihood that Self really plays him much (assuming he stays where he is in the pecking order) is slim. As some have noted, Greene brings the same thing, but at 6'7". Self said Frankamp would be our back-up PG Friday .. that's not a reason to play him there. If we can't be La-Monroe with another player as the backup PG, we should pack it in. Back to Greene -- personally, he's the 2nd most impressive player to me so far, and based on presumed role and expectations (Mason is 1st). He may not be where Self wants him to be all around, but we have a pretty complete looking player there.

Either one, I don't care. I'll sleep better knowing we have a stud post player pinned down. But if I have to choose, I'll trust kD on this one.

@JRyman - I was ok with TCU, but thought Louisville over West Virginia (mostly proximity there). Either way, big, big miss not getting Louisville.

@truehawk93 - So you don't think any of these guys would worry that Ellis and Embiid might here if they come? Thus ok coming off the bench?

Does it make sense that we'll miss on Alexander and Okafer because we have Embiid and Ellis, and Embiid turning pro is no certainty? But then we get Turner in the spring if Embiid makes the leap? Would Alexander or Okafer come if they know Ellis and Embiid may be here?

I would think that if anyone came before Embiid announced, Self has made it very clear to them that Embiid is, in fact, going to turn pro ... meaning it's pretty much a done deal.

Obviously this is coach Self's province here .. but I'm not that concerned about Louisiana-Monroe on Friday. I'm more concerned about Duke. My first thought would be that getting Tharpe ready for Duke, and playing more with multiple new teammates in a game situation, is more important than getting Mason ready for Friday.

Perhaps me not being concerned about La-Monroe is based on the simple fact that I'm not coaching the team ... I'm a fan. Coach Self probably envisions some nightmare, upset scenario and is simply living by the "one game at a time" adage. That makes sense too.

On the flip side, at least Keegan can say he's right about Mason starting at PG instead of Tharpe. I'm sure this is what he envisioned.

Also, on Paris' point .. the merry go round analogy is a good part of my point. Once on, how do you get off? Do you jump? Do you hope it stops spinning? But we are forced a bit by the early departures to pursue the 3 big guys who are presumed OADs. We pretty much ignored the non-OAD guys, or got beat out for them. Ok, then, where are we for 2015-16?

Embiid gone, Ellis likely gone, one of the 3 that we land, gone.

Unless we land an OAD, welcome to Traylor, Lucas, and Mickelson in four man post rotation. That's certainly possible, right? That is scary to me.

That is exactly why I would have liked a Karviar Shepherd, or Jermaine Lawrence, or someone like that for 2013 over any presumed OAD. If we get one of those, Embiid isn't here. Would you take that right now? To have one of those guys for three years vs. Embiid for one? I think I would. And then search out another 20 - 60 guys for the 2014 class.

But Self isn't clairvoyant, I don't think. So he's pursuing guys hard not knowing what any of these 17-18 year olds will do. It's an inexact science. That may be the real answer. Just covering bases. This time, it has lots of OADs. Something tells me the merry go round analogy by Paris is right on.

Paris -- Ah, great questions.

But yes, he could turn down Wiggins. He could simply decline to engage in the OAD drama. He could decline to recruit them. With Wiggins, he knew he had White, knew he had Greene. But he recruited directly over two top 50 players. Underclassmen, mind you, but talented players. And he's recruiting right now over Tharpe, isn't he, with the pursuit of Tyus Jones? He's going to kick Tharpe out of the starting lineup as a senior? Yikes.

Self could focus solely on guys that are just outside the presumed OAD line through about #60, and just build like that. Embiid and Selden don't violate that premise as they weren't presumed OADs when recruited.

See, I think Self could just say no. Could just skip it. And could win national championships with that approach. Snag an OAD just to fill an obvious hole here and there -- like the pursuit of Julius Randle (which led to Tarik Black after missing there).

I will love seeing Wiggins play and help us win. But I'll love it much more if there is no collateral damage, such as a transfer by a potential stud 3 year player, such as Brannen Greene. Like I've mentioned before .. unless Wiggins delivers the title this season, I'd much rather have 3 or 4 years of Brannen Greene than 1 year of Wiggins. Maybe we can have both.

I am clearly in the minority, and I understand that my opinion on this may be a touch naïve. Heck, my mind is still open to the OAD stuff. The verdict isn't in yet.

But Paris' merry go round point is exactly my point to a degree .. when can you jump off? Once on, you're on. And you risk a big valley if the thing goes wrong.

Holy crap .. did slayr just say what I think he said?

"He's not a God."

Oh, right .. he said he's not a God. He didn 't say that he's not the God. I was worried he might catch a stray lightning bolt there for a moment ...

Anyway, slayr, your point is good in pointing out our non-OAD holes in 2011-12. Meaning, those weren't caused by pursuing presumed OADs.

I do think they are demonstrative of what happens when players leave early. I guess at least with presumed OADs you can plan for it better (remembering Self stating he got caught supposedly off guard with Kieff and Selby turning pro), thus leading to the Traylor, Lindsay, Anderson panic/necessity signings.

And, yes, I concede that Self is a better coach than Calipari. Got me there. But in my book, Calipari is an excellent coach. Taking an extremely young group and winning a title is an amazing feat, regardless of player rank. He got them to play unselfishly, developed guys (see Bledsoe vs. us in November and then in April), and he certainly had a system that maximized their talent. Just my opinion there. But yes, Self is the best in my book, too. Izzo is a very close second.

And on slayr's question, I do believe that Self does sell kids on defense, because defense that's part of getting to the NBA. I bet he sells the whole package. But I'm quite sure that's not the glamour part of the sell job.

Slayr's point on Oubre's comments is good, as well. ESPN has reported the nature of the sell well after Oubre's comments -- I kind of think if it wasn't true, word might have crept back to ESPN on that. Jason King was some practices, Biancardi too. I too have skepticism on the premise regarding my post the other day, though. I noted that. I mean Self could have been somewhat vague. Heck, really, he could treat a Lacey (#24) much different that a top 10 guy (Oubre) when it comes to guarantees. he may offer top 10 guys guarantees. But it sure didn't seem like Selby was guaranteed anything, and he was the #1 dude.

It's all a heck of lot of fun, though. Can't wait for tomorrow night.

See I think it is "risky as hell" as Miyagi said .. my suggestions on Self's risky change was moved to the featured content area. Nice to be featured.

What Self has built here is a program of sustainable winning. A program based on high level talent, just not revolving door talent. An OAD here and there, but the foundation being 3 year guys -- guys that could get to the NBA, but who had to bust their collected a**es to do it. We have had no valleys.

I also respectfully suggest that slayr might be undervaluing how good of a coach Calipari really is a bit ... I think he is a great coach. And I think he's proven it.

Perhaps Self is venturing into the territory that could lead to an NIT, no matter how impossible that sounds. Great risk, but perhaps great reward. When you roll the dice on the OADs being a bigger part of your program, you run the risk of, first, freshmen being freshmen (regardless of talent level), and second, on having holes that may not get filled, thus being left with subpar talent (say, a Landen Lucas or Jamari Traylor starting).

However, if we win the title this season, I'd gladly take an NIT flameout the next season. The chances of winning a title, even if you are the best team, are still remote. Thus I'm not a buyer on the OAD stuff just yet.

wissoxfan -- Exactly. When Wiggins signed, I said that the only litmus test here will be a national championship. Some commented that he may attract other potential OADs or top prospects. That makes sense. But without a title, all of the hype seems to be a ridiculous over-focus on one player. Our view of Wiggins will never, ever compare to Manning, or Chamberlain, or Chalmers, or .. you name it, without a title. Without a title, he'll be way below the great players of the Williams' years, because he's an OAD. Not my cup of tea. A constant flow of articles and commentary from the media who can't seem to find something better to write about.

More directly to KU, my biggest concern on the signing back in May was how it might impact the top recruits on our roster .. right now, I'm most concerned about Brannen Greene. But toss Frankamp in there too. Don't want to beat a dead horse there. And it may just be a false alarm. Unless we do win a title this season, one year of Wiggins isn't worth sacrificing 3 years of Brannen Greene.

Dan - On Frankamp, a redshirt would be incredibly helpful, I think. He's not Brannen Greene. Greene is ready physically to play. His assent to the NBA is not limited by that issue. He may be a 3 year player, developmentally comparable to Marcus Morris.

Frankamp is different. Does anyone see that he projects to the NBA now? Not me. But if there is a chance, it will be as a fully developed adult; lots of weight room and lots of development as a player.

If I am Frankamp's family, my first consideration is his development; my second is how he fits in terms playing time at KU.

No doubt this kid needs to develop his game, and physically. And hile injuries and unknowns may change things, my guess is Frankamp would play more in the 2018-19 season, than in 2013-14.

It adds up to "redshirt." But that doesn't mean it will happen.

Statmachine's point is a good one here, I think .. can we afford a redshirt with the ridiculous foul situation? Meaning we might need that additional perimeter player on any given night.

Heck, look at our first regular season game. Tharpe is suspended. That would make Mason the starter, and Selden (presumably) the next option, if CF does redshirt.

But with redshirts, they can always be pulled. If Tharpe tears an ACL in January, a CF redshirt would likely come off.

One thing we haven't really considered is what Wishawk pointed out .. Selden might stay. Yikes. That would be the logjam to end all logjams there.

Wishawk mentions that Selden may be here more than one season ... our speculation is based on the OAD thing. But we have consider that possibility. What a crazy logjam if he doesn't turn pro.

Got here late today .. work interfered. That should not be allowed after a KU game.

But great comments above. I got home and posted at kusports.com on the # of comments vs. last season. Too bad. But this is a great spot. Maybe better when all is said and done.

I guess the things that stood out to me, maybe being a bit repetitive:

1. The lackluster rebounding. Not Achilles' heel level. We'll know better when we play real teams.

2. Selden being a bit underwhelming. Not concerning -- better to judge after the next two games heading into Duke.

3. White looking terrific (I was beating the drum pretty hard for White last season .. as the season progressed, I felt more like I was walking the plank). Great to see. Hat's off to Self on that one.

4. Tharpe looking like the point guard we all have wanted. Assist to turnover was, well, perfect. And Mason looks ahead of where Tharpe was as a freshman by a good bit. Mason looks like a player. I'm excited to see him lead this team when it's his turn.

5. Black looking ok. Prediction alert -- Embiid will start by Jan. 15 .. ok, maybe. I'm not down on Black at all. But you can see the ceiling there, can't you? Good, solid player.

6. Greene maybe being that guy that deserves to play, but won't. Man, I like that kid. Really hope that he is patient. I'm more excited about him as a potential 3 or 4 year player than any OAD.

7. Traylor appearing to have made an incremental improvement from last season, but nothing spectacular.

Again, the analysis in the posts above is great reading.

crimson .. I think dylans was stating the assumptions made about CF, rather than stating his opinion, e.g., not athletic because he's white.

On CF, my view on the redshirt is mainly because he is a four year player, small, and his role is not defined.

The question is not whether he'd help .. it's whether, based on his projected minutes, his value is substantially higher than someone else who could do his job (Mason as backup PG or Greene as the 2nd 2/3 off the bench). If the difference is just marginal, then it makes sense.

I suggest CF because I like him and see much greater value in years 3, 4 and 5 than year 1. With Greene, he could start next season. I don't see that with Frankamp. I just think that Frankamp will be an incredible weapon in a few years, and his value this season may be marginal this season.

The Greene/Frankamp thing is concerning to me. And this goes directly to landing to Wiggins. Wiggins' signing impacts both. I agree with farside .. I think Greene is the real deal. But roster numbers are the issue. Greene and Frankamp can count.

It really goes back to the Peters/Traylor/Lucas discussion from last season. It was pretty clear that one of them would get pushed out voluntarily or involuntarily, It was numbers. Lots of posters protested that suggestion. But you have kids that get one chance at college hoops. Roadblocks and being on the bench don't sit well. Milton Doyle ditched after seeing his competition in Europe. Smart move. And now we know why Self helped Adams with his decision, right?

Now, for 2014-15 .. we have Tharpe, Mason, Frankamp, White, Greene, and Oubre. One certainly won't play. I think the non-player comes from the same list as this season .. White, Greene, or Frankamp. White was the redshirt speculation, but that has ended. Tharpe and Mason are your ballhandlers and Oubre is a top 10ish player (I'm presuming he's in the rotation at least). So White, Greene, or Frankamp.

While the logic set forth by Parishawk on Greene redshirting makes sense, my hunch says Frankamp. He's in state, a clear four year player, no clear position, needs the weight room, etc. With Greene, he's out of state, not a clear 4 year player, bigger guy, appears more game ready, and appears to be a bigger risk to transfer.

What is the price of the Wiggins' signing? Could it be a Greene transfer? I hope not. A Frankamp redshirt would maybe establish the pecking order, and thus may make Greene feel a bit better.

Remember what we were saying about Adams and Tharpe this time last season .. we were looking at numbers with the incoming freshmen. Selden had just committed -- Greene, Frankamp, with White in the fold too. Adams ended up leaving. It could have been Tharpe.

It's just an interesting dynamic worth watching.

Lulu .. thanks. Enjoy your posts as well.

FarSide .. I think you have it pinned down precisely right; perhaps Embiid gets those extra minutes sooner rather than later.

The real story line is who might redshirt .. Frankamp or Greene. Frankamp makes the most sense. But if there is an injury to Tharpe or Mason, Frankamp is likely the next choice. So it could get pulled off of him in that situation.

If he is a mama's boy, and stays close to home because of that, then we weren't going to get him anyway. I'm guessing the proximity thing is important given his final 5 choices. But I'm also guessing his mom is smart enough to see that picking the right school is a key determiner in this young man's future. We lost out on Karviar Shepherd last season because he wanted to stay close to home. Hope that's not the case here.

Alexander cut Kentucky from his list last month.

http://zagsblog.com/articles/cliff-alexander-says-kentucky-is-out/ ↗

The followups here really point out a strong theme .. Black has more in the tank than perhaps came out at Memphis. He has nice moves in the post, a baby hook, gets up and down the floor nicely, and seems to provide a nice presence on defense.

What do we need from him? 10 ppg, 8 boards, and to do what we discussed when Self inked him .. provide some protection inside for Ellis. He may not be TRob as Case pointed out, but if he is Darnell Jackson as mentioned by slayr, we'll all be very happy. That still might be a little high of a bar, but not a bad expectation.

And it may be as simple as crimsonorblue said .. coach Self is now his coach. He'll be better.

The Tarik Black deal is interesting. Memphis fans have commented that he looked the part, practiced well, but then didn't perform come game time. Is this one of those players that we, as Kansas fans, have become giddy about simply because he wears a KU uniform? We are prone to that, you know.

Questions do surround Black. The guy only played 20 minutes per game last season, which was less than he played either his freshman or sophomore seasons. Something was amiss.

I looked at his stats .. Question: Who is the better rebounder, Tarik Black or Kevin Young? Right, I wouldn't ask the question if Black was the answer. In Black's three season, he averaged .212 rebounds per minute played. Young averaged .284 per minute played in his two seasons. Black's best rebounding season (.231) did not eclipse Young's worst (.263). As another comparison, Traylor has .213 rebounds per minute played last season vs. Black's .212 career. For the monster comparison, TRob was at .372 his final season.

The most astonishing stat to me was that for his three year career, Black had just 32 assists .. in three full seasons! Unbelievable. In his sophomore season where he played his most minutes (895) he had a mere 6 assists. His career assist to minutes played is .013. Young was .052.

At .013 assists per minute played, you would almost have to be trying NOT to pass. It is really an unbelievable stat. I kind of felt that TRob had a tough time passing out of double teams at time .. he had 72 assists in his final season. Withey and 29 and 35 in his final two seasons. Aldrich 31 his final season. Something to watch.

As far as points go, Black scored .403 points per minute played in his three seasons. KY .326. So Black scored at a better rate. And Black was a way better shot blocker based on his first two seasons than KY, though last season they both had 20 blocks (and KY had less minutes).

The point being, really, is Tarik Black better than Kevin Young? Are we getting a significantly better player, one that is marginally better, or a push?

All reports seem positive. But the leadership comments, etc., could as easily be attributed to KY last season, right? Positive, helping younger guys, energetic, etc.

When I see the low assist rate, I think of a black hole in the post. Or a guy with no court vision. It is something to keep an eye on. What does he do when he gets the ball on the block?

And the rebound rate is pretty concerning. I have never felt that Traylor has a feel for rebounding. Seemed to oddly be in the wrong spots many times. But his rate was on par with Black. We need Black to grab boards.

With Ellis not the most aggressive personality, Embiid a freshman with little experience, and Black having the low rebound rates, perhaps rebounding from our post players could be an area of concern.

I don't know what to expect from Black. All reports have been positive. But if Black can't rebound the ball at least at a KY rate, Embiid may take a bigger share of minutes.

Hmm .. I'd like to call him "sophomore."

DanR -- "Honestly, I'm already more comfortable with Tharpe out there than a Tyshawn Taylor as a junior."

Ya think?? That quote could be a thread all by itself.

And while I spent paragraphs getting to the point, Dan hit it with one sentence.

Of course, they are completely different players. But my point with TT over the years was that he struggled to make the team better. He was focused on his game. He had some many ill-advised drives and mishaps there was no way to keep track -- though I tried from game to game.

One of my favorite posters from a ways back .. KULA .. a true TT lover .. made the point (when kind of backed in a corner) that, well, his missed shots and blocked shots can be recovered for a few easy baskets by our interior guys. I had to concede the point.

Give me Tharpe.

But, hey, Tharpe does have to prove it. It has never been his team. That does have a bit of weight to lug around.

And to slayr's top 5 (which is a tremendous primer .. I'll plagiarize), his #1 point is the key. Because you really can't get to any other functions unless you can do that. And that's why "point guards" are so important. The functionality of the team shuts down without that not so simple function. It's why Frank Mason would play over guys much more talented (in other aspects of the game). He seems to be able to handle function #1.

Dan .. not to worry. slayr and I have great confidence in Tharpe. You should too.

Tharpe is a pure point guard. As slayr pointed out, EJ was really a 2. That was fitting a square peg in a round hole. Selden is a 2. Why try to fit that peg in the wrong hole? As Self said .. emergencies. But Tharpe and Mason are pure PGs. And they are the "real deal", to quote slayr (his was referring to Mason). Mason may have some major rough patches as a freshman on the ball .. so I expect that.

Just my view here .. but Tharpe had his career defining moment late last November. Self said a change might be coming. Rio almost got the back up job. But Tharpe responded. Just look at his terrific assist to turnover. Tharpe is exactly what we want in a point guard. Upperclassman, knows Self's system, pass first, no ego. You wait. You'll be happy.

I've been accused of being too giddy about Tharpe .. nah, just recognizing the incredible improvement I have seen. As I've mentioned before, if he makes half the improvement from year 2 to year 3, that he made from year 1 to year 2, we are well taken care of.

slayr knows his PGs .. I'm along for the ride.

If you go to the kusports.com story and read the comments , I wonder if anyone has ever seen Selden handle D-1 pressure? Self said he could be an "emergency" point guard. That's what Self has said.

There is a huge difference between dribbling it a few times with a few moves, and being a point guard. Last season, some folks did the same thing when Self was motivating Tharpe with some talk about alternative point guards -- suggesting KY, or Releford. As if you just put a player at the PG spot, and he's a point guard. I said that was silly then, and it's silly now.

And I disagree here with Keegan. It is nowhere near clear that Selden's NBA job will be as a point guard. Quite frankly, I doubt it. But I really don't care about the NBA.

Here, with coach Self, he needs and wants sure ball handlers. Guys that can dribble with incredible pressure, deliver passes to pressured wings, penetrate and dish .. guys that can create and make players better.

In September of 2012, Self specifically said he was searching for a "point guard" as part of the class. There is a reason for that.

Selden is exactly what Self said he is .. and emergency PG. That may be enough, as he evolves this season, to be a 6-8 minute guy there when Tharpe rests. But I doubt that. Mason or Frankamp will likely get those minutes. Mason looks the part.

If there is anything that is concerning, it's the back up PG spot .. in 2011-12, we had EJ to spell TT. Remember how horrific Tharpe was? Could you freshman candidates be that bad? Maybe. Seems to me that we have an 8+ man rotation, that includes Mason as the "+" minutes.

Wow, the LJW hasn't had a thread like this one since .. well, you know.

It's really pretty funny. I don't see Brett McCabe (kingfisher) over there posting his cell phone number, address, and employer. As I noted on that site a couple of days ago, he could be the Brett McCabe from Chicago, Denver, or Omaha. Who knows? It's still anonymous.

It is purely a money making deal. I get it. At least they could say that. The "civility" stuff is a red-herring.

Refs suck any way you slice it. Whether they are or they aren't calling fouls doesn't change that. Basketball is the hardest sport to officiate in my opinion. I tend to side on letting them play because the more refs blow the whistle, the more they control the outcome by their many times random, and other times vindictive, whistles. And because you have a chunk of refs that are egomaniacs and see themselves as being the show It is very difficult to draw the line. This season could be a mess. Good thing this didn't happen in 2011-12 when we had zero depth. Perhaps this could be an advantage for us this season.

That said, the best example of poor refereeing was Justin Wesley. That poor guy would come in during 2011-12 and get two quick whistles just for being Justin Wesley. KU many times had less fouls, and he was the catch-up guy.