🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Interesting thought. I think I like it. My initial concern would be fouls. Most games, we have a least one or two "bigs" sitting some of the first half with 2 early fouls. It's mostly been Tarik, but JoJo and Jamari have also had their own foul issues. In limited minutes, Perry has done well to avoid foul troubles. But with stricter enforcement of hand check rules, I'm wondering if Perry at the 3 might expose him to foul troubles as well as he tries to guard typically faster players looking to drive.

Perhaps "PE at the 3" is something to employ late 1st half or 2nd as we see how the foul situation plays out. Additionally, in limited minutes Lucas has looked like a player - so we might have more depth with our big men than many of us thought preseason.

An additional concern would be having one less sharp shooter on the floor. With a small sample size, PE has shown that he can hit the three. But most of us wouldn't pick him for a 3 point shooting contest. With @highelitemajor 's well-documented concerns regarding our 3 pt deficiencies, this lineup could exacerbate, not alleviate, that problem. That's less floor time for Selden, Greene, White, and/or Connor. Granted, as a group they've been anything but impressive from 3 land. But Selden's hit some recently, and I have to think that turns around for another 1-2 of them too (right?!)

Don't mean to dump all over your suggestion. As a said, I actually like it and think we should look to employ it intermittently during a game. Just not sure I would start with "PE at the 3."

Thanks for the kind words @jaybate 1.0. Sorry for your recent losses and I hope you are healing well from your own ailments.

Who starts at the 2 next season if Selden declares?

I could see Frankamp at the 2. Or we could continue to see Mason and Tharpe out there together. Maybe Greene. Knowing Self it'll be whoever is the best defender at that point and time.

I don't care for Bobby "Pump Fake" Knight (too lazy to bother to learn players names.) Gus Johnson and Bill Raftery are some of my favorites. I like Kevin Harlan quite a bit too. I hate to say it, but one of my guilty announcer likes is Doug "Pants on Backwards" Gottlieb. He's just not afraid to say whatever he thinks - and I like that.

IMO, Jay Bilas has been one of the best in the business. This last game, I did find him to be off a bit. Through the ears of this homer, at times I thought he was overly critical of Wiggins. I also thought he was way off for not calling out the repeated cheap head shots by the Georgetown Gang. Case in point: Is it really worse to weakly throw a ball in the general direction of a player than it is to rake someone across the face after the whistle blows? He only called out Wiggins on that play - not the GT player after several replays showed a pretty dirty play by the GT player in my book. That said, I still think he's insightful and pretty funny. I'll chalk this one up to a below average performance.

Good to have you back on "board" @jaybate 1.0

I reference this in the thread I started about Wayne Selden but I'm not sure we want/need JaQuan Lyle. There have been some red flags on him behaviorally (why did Louisville pull their offer after he made his visit there?) and academically. Let's use and develop the backcourt studs we already have.

I'm really just throwing this out there for discussion as I don't have any great insights on this. I keep hearing Wayne's name thrown out there as a likely candidate to leave after this season. I don't know - he's been very good at times, especially for a true Freshman. And I know the whole draft on potential thing - he seems to have the body of a prototypical NBA guard. But the 2014 NBA Draft is going to be the deepest draft in the last ten years and I just personally haven't seen enough to make me think he's a likely OAD candidiate. Don't get me wrong - I love him and his game. He seems to be a very solid person with a good head on his shoulders. It's still early enough in the season that a lot could change. But as things stand now, I really think he'll be here next year. (Also why I don't want JaQuan Lyle.) Maybe just wishful thinking... What do you think?

I don't root against Wichita State. I sort of root for them. But mark me down for a vote not to electively play WSU. I certainly wouldn't give them a home and home or even a 2 for 1 deal. Absolutely no benefit to playing them at their place. I agree with @dylans point re: lost revenue.

But here's the bigger picture. Many of you might feel this is reaching a bit - and perhaps it is - but I don't think it's that far-fetched. I don't want KU to play WSU because I think it gives their program a chance for more credibility. I think it helps an in-state D1 program trying to take that next step towards becoming something more than a flash-in-the-pan mid-major. Mid-majors who have sustained some recent success would include programs like VCU or Butler. Then perhaps the next step would be a Gonzaga. The ultimate goal for these mid-majors? Emulate Duke.

The common denominator for these programs are deep runs into the tournament. With WSU's final four run last year, they can be mentioned in the same sentence as VCU, and maybe Butler. They are making that next step. If they can replicate a deep run and string together multiple years with NCAA bids, they will be able to be in the Gonzaga discussion. Will any of these schools ever be mentioned in the same breath as Duke? Extremely unlikely.

Why does that matter to us at KU? Recruiting. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it would significantly impact us. But guys like Perry Ellis and Connor Frankamp might more seriously consider staying at home if WSU became a more legitimate program. Why let a program 2 hours down the road try to become the next Gonzaga - a program who does have more than regional recruiting appeal.

Again - perhaps a little far-fetched. But I'm a zealous and jealous KU fan. I don't want to share any money, attention, prestige or recruits with anyone else in the state. So I say do anything we can to nip this in the bud - which to me means not playing Wichita St.

Also, I don't care what's been promised. From here on out, Landon Lucas is the first big off the bench. Then Jamari. Then Tarik Black. It's better for KU's present and future to give the PT to those guys.

Self on Tharpe, THE team leader:

“He has to take ownership for everything,” Self added. “There’s nobody else that can do it yet. He has to buy time for these guys to give them a chance to grow up and he hasn’t done that as well as he can do. Today I thought he did a good job with that.”

Who is this team's Leader? Question answered. Now don't make me ask again.

Along those lines @Jesse Newell, the same thing that makes Frank a less desirable starting option for this particular team (not a distribute-first PG) makes him an ideal 6th man. Which in a way takes us back to the Sherron comparisons. Mason creates his own shot and can be instant offense - a desirable trait to have coming off the bench if our starters stagnate and need a spark off the bench.

I still feel if Heaps is given time in the pocket (better O-line) and is the victim of fewer dropped passes (better receivers) then perhaps he could develop some confidence and be a serviceable if not good Big 12 QB.

Sam Mellinger of the KC Star with a column written from the future. I found it interesting he touched on several of the leadership questions that I brought up on this thread:

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/12/12/4689324/one-blueprint-to-a-ku-basketball.html ↗ ↗

I have two pretty firm beliefs - 1) that as a player, you can't be a leader unless you're playing. Only exception might be the older professional player that is at the tail end of his career. 2) that a player can be a true leader unless he is verbal, meaning will talk, express himself, and direct others.

I agree @HighEliteMajor. I would add to those criteria the need to have at least 1 if not 2 years already under your belt. To really know Self and his system/methods it take a couple of years of indoctrination. Greene is a freshman and his PT is still in flux. Black may get the PT (although not much due to fouls) but doesn't have those previous years of indoctrination to be that extension of Self on the floor. That leaves Tharpe. Will he step up?

Over the last 10 years, Coach Self has had multiple teams loaded with talented underclassmen that played important roles for KU. But on those teams, there were always upperclassmen who were the team leaders. They weren't always the best players, but they were guys who had been through the ups and downs of KU basketball. Guys who had fought through both self-doubt and Self-doubt to emerge as leaders on the floor.

Those upperclass players become vital at times like these - when losses mount and players start doubting themselves, the system, and maybe even the coach. Those leaders are vital when 18-19 year olds start to tune out the screaming of a coaching staff that is frustrated with them. They become as important as the assistant coaches. In essence, they are assistant coaches. Coaches on the floor that redirect the game from getting out of hand - keeping a 6-8 point run from becoming a 21 point run.

I can't ever recall a Self-coached KU team devoid of those player leaders. Until now. Usually there are several guys who fill this role. Reed. Robinson. Morningstar. Withey. Darnell. Sasha. Chalmers. Rush. You get the idea. But who is that guy this year? Tarik Black? Greg Wesley? No and No. Certainly none of the walk-on coaches' sons. Perry is just a Sophomore and not vocal enough to be that leader - at least not yet. It was supposed to be Tharpe and Traylor - and maybe it will be. But I'm not seeing it yet.

So while we look for Andrew to be the athletic leader on the floor - and he appears to be showing growth in that direction - we also look for the heart and soul of this team. That guy that will be an extension of Coach Self on the floor.

History has shown that a Coach Self team always finds it way. It has stumbled and looked lost at times over the years (see TCU) but then turns the corner and rallies for yet another conference championship and high NCAA tourney seed. So this year will be no different, right? I truly hope so. But I see a concerning difference between this and all previous Self teams... Who is our leader?

Looks like Embiid gets the start tonight.

He is the Sports Editor and should be capable of reporting and analyzing. To me, he (unsuccessfully) attempts to wax poetic and all too often there's not enough meat on the bone. But to each his own @JayHawkFanToo.

Keegen wrote a nice article

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm gonna have to stop you right there. I'll keep it civil and all, but I read that article as well, and was quickly reminded of why I don't read Keegan articles. The first 4 paragraphs (half of the article) was a disjointed mishmash of his thoughts and anecdotes that really had nothing to do with KU vs Florida. I enjoy the memory of that game and the players involved. I just wish Corporal Keegan hadn't commandeered the recollection with his classic blather.

Florida is in a world of hurt...

How so @drgnslayr? They reportedly get Scottie Wilbekin and Kasey Hill back for tonight's game. They are still missing Chris Walker, but this team will be as close to full strength as they have been in a month.

By stating "elite" talent, can we assume we are talking about top20 guys?

Good stuff @Ralster. Just to clarify, I don't mean top 20 talent. I mean that one kid that comes along maybe once every 2-3 years or longer. That clear cut top guy in the class. Granted this year is unique, as there are several players (Parker, Randle, Gordon) that would usually be the best of the best most any other year. As I mentioned with guys like Cliff Alexander, I'm confident we'll get plenty of top 20 kids regardless of how Wiggins does.

@justanotherfan - I agree with most of your post. Although I do think it's easier for a low post player to impose their will through the course of a game with rebounding down low and help defense (blocks.) Offensively, though, they still require someone to feed the post. And Kentucky has done pretty well getting Randle the ball.

With the small forward position, since Wiggins isn't bringing the ball up the floor, to some extent he's also at the mercy of distribution by the ball handlers. There's always transition buckets and crashing the boards - which I think Wiggins has done well (although inconsistently.) Otherwise, set offense with screens and efforts to get him the ball in space must be designed/called for. When things break down, it's been the guards driving the lane. I'd like to see Wiggins get the ball at the top of the key and see what he can do off the dribble at the end of a possession. Along those lines, my main complaint about Mason has been when he drives, he's not looking to dish enough. He's been rewarded so far by putting his head down and getting fouls called. But that's fool's gold. As teams adjust and less fouls are called, he can't rely on those calls to keep coming. He needs to start looking for the pass when he's driving.

I dont understand this thread at THIS point in time

All good thoughts @Ralster, but not sure your responses really touched on the essence of the core question. That is, is this Self's last chance to coach an elite recruit?

I won't argue many of your points. I think Wiggins and the team are just about on schedule per Coach Self's expectations and will most likely follow an upward trajectory, as most Self teams do. But fair or unfair, ask anybody outside of the Jayhawk community and the impression is that Wiggins is under performing. Does their opinion matter? Only if you care about getting future Wiggins-like talent. And that's not being facetious. Maybe you don't. Maybe you're in the camp that doesn't want these OAD's. That's fine.

I'm also not saying Self can't continue to reel in top tier recruits. I think he most certainly will. Cliff Alexander for example. He's a great talent, but there will be several players in each most year's classes equal to him. Wiggins was to be that once in a decade talent, right? Probably unfair to say that, but that was the perception. Fair or not, what will the next supposed transcendent player that KU recruits think about Self's ability to utilize him? If Wiggins doesn't take flight soon, you know that the people recruiting against KU will point out Wiggins (and Selby) for the duration of Bill Self's coaching career. Fair or not.

I gave the caveat that it was early. Maybe you're right - too early for this thread at this point in time. But this is a friendly - and civil - place to throw out this morsel for us board rats to chew on. So, I'll rephrase the core question: if Andrew Wiggins performs the rest of the year as he has to present, will this be the last elite talent Bill Self is able to recruit?

Taking a step back, it is sort of humorous that some of us (myself included) are concerned about Coach Self playing too many players and not sticking with a set rotation. I can't remember how many times through the years I've grumbled about him not utilizing our depth.

Shooters are hot and cold... even the best of them. If we have all 3 getting partial minutes don't we mix and match during a game and see who is hot?

The problem is these shooters need some time to let a few fly and get in the rhythm of the game. They are mentally and physically "cold." If a kid never knows if he's even going to see the floor, his head may not be in the game. Maybe that's on the kid. But these are freshmen/sophomores we're talking about who can more easily be overwhelmed by the moment/situation. And if they do come in they get only a few minutes with maybe 1 or 2 shots then ride the bench the rest of the half/game. So they never even break a sweat and physically get warmed up.

Perhaps the answer is to give each of these kids 10-12 minutes over a 2-3 game stretch. If they don't make the most of that extended audition then move on to the next.

Who is first?

I'm guessing it was a below average guard on the basketball team named William Self. 😉

@JayHawkFanToo I hope you don't misunderstand me. I tried to be clear that I would choose no other coach over Self. The point of this thread is:
1. Does Coach Self know how to coach a special talent like Wiggins?
2. Will a Wiggins "failure" (anything less than 1st team All-american) keep KU from getting other best of the best recruits.?
3. And is that a bad thing? Maybe @highelitemajor is right - maybe we want off this OAD merry-go -round.

@ParisHawk I feel that that Wiggins does deserve special treatment. I know he didn't ask for any of this, but I bet if you ask him, he wants to be considred the premier player everyone hyped him to be. If he is to be a transcendent player, then his games (good and bad) will be under the microscope. That said, this thread is intended to be more about Coach Self and how he handles elite talent.

It's early. Let me start by acknowledging that. Perhaps too early to be posting this. But with each passing game the near consensus number 1 recruit in the country (and Bill Self's most heralded recruit ever) not only doesn't look like the best freshman in the country, but doesn't even look like the best freshman on his own team. In fact you could argue that for several games, 2 or 3 freshman have looked better.

I like Andrew Wiggins. I think he's an incredible player. I think he'll be a great pro for many years. How great? All-star? Hall of Fame? Not sure. And that's not the point of my post here. In fact, I don't even want to talk about Andrew. I want to talk about Coach Self. I think Coach Self is one of THE best college coaches in the game. I wouldn't trade him for anyone. That said, I'm starting to wonder about his ability to adapt. I know he can adapt pretty well to what the other teams throw at him. I'm talking about his ability to change the way he coaches in order to best utilize the talents he has at his disposal. Is he running the best offense to utilize the once in a decade talents of an Andrew Wiggins? That's not a rhetorical question. I honestly don't know. I'll leave it up to @highelitemajor , @drgnslayr and others to speak intelligently about that. It seems to me that Andrew isn't the focus of our offense. It seems to me like we're running the same stuff we always have. That's why Perry Ellis and even Embiid have been looking so good. The big men always look good in a Bill Self offense, right?

So back to my original question: Is this Bill Self's last chance to showcase a top recruit? If the rest of the year looks like the first 7 games, I'd have to say probably so. I don't think you can recover from an underachieving Wiggins who was (unfairly) hyped as the second coming of Kevin Durant. Add on an underachieving Josh Selby (yes I know he was hurt and suspended - no one else cares about that) and Coach Self will have strikes one and two against him. He'll become known as the coach that can get you from a 10-50 Rivals ranking to the NBA draft, but if you're a top ten talent he won't know how to showcase you.

Depending on how you feel about the Calipari "strategy" of bringing in the best of the best, perhaps that's a good thing? I mean we all want Self and KU and Wiggins to succeed, but perhaps the silver lining to the collegiate failures of Selby and Wiggins is... no more Selbys and Wigginses.

I'll say it again. It's early, and this may all be premature. But in my opinion, Andrew and perhaps even more so, Coach Self, is on the clock.

Well, it's true that it still felt like we were in this game in the second half despite spotting KSU a 21 point lead. I actually felt we could pull within striking distance until Mundine did not catch that 20+ yard pass. If only he would have dropped it like usual - but no. He bumbled it right into the hands of the KSU DB. That was the turning point in the game.

As far as whether we should feel better about this loss or not. I don't know. I mean this Wildcat team isn't as good as the previous several that have embarrassed us, so losing by 21 isn't all that exciting for me either.

My take. We're marginally better than year 2 with Turner but still not anywhere close to where we should be. If only Zenger would have flown back with our new coach from Arkansas instead of Florida...

Thanks for giving us your status update @JRyman. Keep us up to date, and prayers for continued recovery. Happy Thanksgiving!

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone! Hope everyone has safe travels and enjoys some good food and family time. Today, one of the things I'm thankful for is this forum where my fellow Jayhawks and I can debate, extrapolate, pontificate, and above all else: congratulate. Rock Chalk.

Coach Grunhard tweeted the following about 40 minutes ago:

"@KU_oline: Jayhawk nation Ty for making me and my family feel so welcome over the past 2 years. It's time to a Dad again#swimdad#61&12 Rockchalk!"

I wish him nothing but the best and hopefully this is mutually beneficial to both parties. KU definitely needed a change up on offense and esp on the O-line. Hoping also to see a change at the QB coaching position as I feel Ron Powlus has underachieved at his job as well.

I've used my iPhone to post, reply and look up "unread" links. In fact, Im doing all three at this moment.

Here's my question, Jesse:

Now that you're in Topeka (and closer to being downwind of Manhattan), in your professional opinion, exactly how bad does K-State Basketball stink this year?

a) truck full of manure (chicken)

b) decomposing body

c) raw sewage

d) dog farts

e) elevator packed with teens wearing Axe Body Spray

f) all of the above

They can beat anyone at home, but they aren't as good on the road.

I agree with most of your post, but winning at altitude in the land of the caffeine-free is no joke. That's a strong road win. Plus, they were a banked three pointer by BMac from beating us at AFH last year. I think ISU is clearly an NCAA tourney team and everyone in the Big12 better be ready to play them, even away from Hilton.

The more important question for KU fans is do you want Turner as a OAD in his first year or do you want Joel as a sophomore trying to be the #1 pick in the draft?

I'll take a Sophomore Joel every day of the week and twice on Sundays. With one year under his belt in Self's system ... I mean look at the difference in Freshman Perry and Sophomore Perry. And Joel's upside is twice that of Perry's. He would have time to develop his shot blocking and be more polished offensively. Picking Joel is a no-brainer for me.

Did you know Hoiberg's contract has a 2mil buyout if he goes to another college team, but only 500k if he goes to the NBA? Hm.

I think he's gone to the NBA in the next 3-4 years. I too think he's a stand-up guy and I suspect he's very concerned about leaving the program in as good as shape as possible. For that reason, I wouldn't be surprised if he waited to leave until after they make a deep run or two in the NCAA tourney.

BTW, I wanted to reassure everyone that we have confirmed that the person logged in as Jesse Newell is, in fact, THE Jesse Newell and not someone misrepresenting him. So, ask away...

Jesse,

Andrew Wiggins has been good - but not great offensively. He's been efficient (except from 3) but not aggressive, as Parishawk mentioned above. I know its early, so sample size is low. But here's my question:

Is there any clear statistical measure yet of how much Mr. Wiggins is effecting the game defensively?

Thanks. I'll hang up and listen off the air.

Prayers for a successful procedure and recovery.

Updated Lyle info:

• Coach Howard did not watch him yesterday, but reports said that he would watch him later this week.

• Also reports are that he would set up an official visit to KU in the coming weeks.

• Lyle tweeted that he does have an offer from Kansas.

Belmont was a "Wrecking Ball" in Chapel Hill:

Miley Makes McAdoo Miss ↗

As far a Jaquan Lyle, this link indicates Coach Howard watched him yesterday and that he won't sign until the Spring:

link text ↗

So, I'm convinced we haven't offered Jaquan yet. Why? In essence we'd be choosing Lyle over Myles Turner. Turner's a MUCH better prospect at a position of (possible) greater need. Not to mention the chatter that something significant happened (Academic? Behavioral?) to make Louisville pull their offer - not the other way around.

I just can't see Self signing 4 kids unless 2 are in the late signing period - and then only if it's clear any 2 of Selden, Embiid or Ellis (unlikely) are leaving. And since Turner's not picking until the late signing period I can't see Self possibly losing Turner by signing Lyle.

The questions that remain:
- Do we really want/need Lyle?
- Is Lyle wanting to come here bad enough to wait - possibly until the Spring?

Name suggestions:

Cliftene Alexandra Brooks
Jahlil Okafina Brooks
Tyusina Jo Brooks

Or if things don't go our way Fri...

Bella Self Brooks

CONGRATS!!

It's interesting to hear that Okafor's mind is made up. Tyus Jones said last nights game would have no impact on his decision, but he also said he still wasn't sure where he is going.

If that's true, it gives me hope that Okafor has picked KU and told Tyus come or don't come - although Okafor's dad also said they would be going to the same place.

So what I'm saying is, no one knows what is going on. Apparently even the recruits. Clear enough?

Other thought - will Mason take Tharpe's starting job?

Seems crazy to even be typing that but in many ways Mason outplayed Tharpe last night. It was really very impressive. A true freshman in his second real game playing on national TV in a headline game - the kid is a PLAYER. I found myself wanting the ball in either Ellis, Selden's, or Mason's hands at crunch time. Mason was smartly exploiting the new foul situation and sinking his FT's with poise: 11-12!!

Now the criticism would be he only had one assist, and was playing more like a 2-guard than a true point. He wasn't really looking to pass but rather to drive and draw fouls. Perhaps that's why it worked pretty well having both Tharpe and him out their together. But that's one thing we don't need is another "combo" guard on this roster. Moving forward he's going to have to look to dish on more of those drives.

Also wondered if Tyus Jones was thinking: I can beat out that JR but not sure about that TRUE FRESHMAN... Duke it is.

It was very interesting that Greene came on to play before AWIII in the first half. Greene did look pretty good in limited first half minutes. I'm with HEM wondering if AWIII somehow got in Self's doghouse or if it was a strategic move. I know we wound up playing extreme small ball with Frank the Tank and Tharpe - but have to think that will be an exception moving forward.

Either way, IMO he needs to pick just one of those guys to give more consistent minutes to. Going forward, we will need a 6th man coming off the bench who can play with confidence and provide points. And they need to KNOW that's their role - not wonder if they're playing at all.

Nice article about how the media has turned on Wiggins:

http://rushthecourt.net/2013/11/12/after-just-one-game-the-andrew-wiggins-backlash-has-begun/#more-100070 ↗

Perry Ellis belongs on that list before ANY of those freshman, Wiggins included.

The nation is sleeping on Perry, and I get the feeling that he is fine with that. He will just quietly go about his business and when it's all said and done put up All-American numbers on a (hopefully) National Championship contending team.

Just saw this quote:
"“Neither Okafor nor Alexander want to announce before the other. If they do, it ruins ALL the hype leading up to each announcement,” --- Roy Schmidt of Illinois Prep Bulls-eye

Again, perhaps me reading too much into it, but this has "hat ceremony" written all over it. And I've given my theory before on why KU does so poorly at the hat-on-the-table kids. Long story short: most of the kids who like to milk the attention and feed off the limelight don't mesh well with Self's don't be soft and earn your way onto the floor message.