Coach Self has always advised players that were potential lottery picks to go; way too much money at stake. I just don't see him changing that.
JayHawkFanToo
13427 posts
@wissoxfan83
Tarik was stranded in Tulsa and an impersonator took his place...
The main problem for KU is experience. Last year's starting team had 3-5th year seniors, 1 Sr and 1 red shirt Fr.; this is a combined 16 years of prior experience. As a comparison, a team starting 5 seniors would have 15 years of prior experience.
The prior experience for the starting five for KU's game against Colorado and Florida was 1 year (Ellis). With Tharpe starting, the number goes up to 3, but still not even in the same planet as last year's team.
When the baby Jayhawks are clicking on all cylinders, they are hard to beat but so far, I have not seen them play this way other that for shorts stints in a few games. When they play like the inexperienced players they are, they can be beaten by anyone...and I have seen plenty of this type of play. I am sure that as conference play goes on, they will continue to improve and hopefully win the conference outright. I trust Coach Self.
When it comes to pure basketball analysis, the general is the best, he truly knows the game inside and out and can explain plays better than anyone else...he is definitely and acquired taste though.
Look at the play by play log. The teams were about even the first 6-7 minutes with the score within 1 point when Greene came into the game. He missed a 3 pointer and had a turnover and in those 2-3 minutes Georgetown went up by 6 to 21-15 and Greene got the quick yank.. After he was substituted, KU started pushing the ball inside and penetrating more, drawing a lot of fouls in the process and slowly pulling away; not the type of game that favors Greene's style.
Bilas is by and large one of the better college BBall analysts. Unfortunately, he has taken a side in the new rules controversy and now he is caught in a catch 22 situation, where he sees the change he advocated seriously misused to the detriment of the game.
Today's game was not one of his better performances, probably a combination of KU beating Duke earlier and our own biases against anything that we see as an attack on KU.
Wow Tarik...who knew...
The refs allowed a lot of physical play which helped Tarik. Let's hope that this is a prelude to many more similar performances. Jamari also had a good game and Lucas has shown that he will be a force. If these three players continue to play well, KU would have a formidable front line with Ellis and Embiid already playing well.
The injury to Ellis was scary; I don't recall ever seeing a player shoot the free throw so far of the rim...well, there was a Brady's free throw attempt...
Hope Greene isn't back in the pound again. Anyone know whassup?
The team was playing well with other players. No coach in his right mind would break the rhythm by going with an outside shooter when the inside game was rocking. This just was not the type of game where Greene would have been able to contribute more than the players that got the minutes.
I believe the type of defense Georgetown uses will determine how much Mason plays. If they use a zone, Tharpe will get the node since he is the better passer, if they use man to man, then Mason will play more, since he can penetrate and with the new rules, get a basket, a foul or both.
If we didn't win those 9 Conference Championships, the chance of winning a NC would be pretty slim. Those 9 Championship means were we good enough to contest for the NC, not winning the conference means we were not, i.e. without one, you likely don't have the other.
I would trade 2 or 3, maybe even 4 conference tittles for NC but now way I give up all 9 for 1 NC.
I always ask my friends that question why KU does no have more titles, would rather have a team that is consistently in the top 10 and regularly wins 30 games per year, or a team that has a magical season once or twice every twenty years and it is middle of the pack the rest of time, like Arkansas, Houston, Memphis, Villanova, UNC State, Buttler? The answer is almost always that continuous success, even without a NC is better.
@globaljaybird . Security is now that way anywhere you go, be it arenas or airports; an unfortunate consequence of the times we live in.
Parking is not bad, lots of parking lots within a few blocks from the arena, which is typical of most venues located smack in the middle of an urban area. I usually park at the underground parking lot by Allis Plaza and its is just few short blocks; cost is not bad compared to what you pay at venues in other cities. I just wish it would have been built it in the Kansas side, somewhere around College Boulevard or maybe the Legends.
@nuleafjhawk . Jerrod Hasse wrote the book about his personal experience and the tittle doe not necessarily reflect the entire team attitude. He did dive for balls more that anyone else and played at full speed all the time. I remember the Big 8 title game against Missouri when Jason Sutherland, the dirtiest player I have ever seen, put a football style tackle on Hasse and send him flying under the scorer's table.
@wissoxfan83 . I respectfully disagree. The Sprint Centre is a very nice arena with a distinct exterior design and excellent visibility from most every seat and the Power and Light District to party, before and after games, right next door; bland is not a name I would use to describe it. KU has been playing there for 6 years including yearly games, Big 12 Tournaments and last year NCAA Regionals. Night and day compared with Kemper arena.
@nuleafjhawk . While I agree with you that this year's team does not seem to have the same "urgency" as teams from past years, perhaps a result of the perceived self awareness of their collective talent; however, as hard as I try, I cannot think of a player in the last few years that di not play hard and hustled after balls. Maybe you can tell me who you think in previous years was soft?
Xavier had the misfortune of being drafted by Memphis. Instead of giving him the signing bonus all rookies get, they refused and he sat out the pre-season, the time when rookies get their initial exposure to the big boys game and earn playing time. I believe his agent bears some of the responsibility, but there is a good chance that he was following order from Carl. The injury and lockout and his trade to New Orleans were additional bad breaks.
He seems to be now in a good situation with the Lakers, who need a player like him and picked him up as a free agent. He has risen to the challenge and revived a career that many thought was over.
@wissoxfan83 . Got to move with times. The Sprint Center has been open for 6 years now; did you not just watch the New Mexico game at Sprint Center?
@nuleafjhawk . Agreed on both points. Free throws are exactly that FREE, and yet players fail to take advantage. It is the one skill that can be improved with proper training as it does not require athletic ability, just good technique, muscle memory and concentration, and they can all be improved with practice.
With the new contact rules, free throws are becoming a lot more important and might decide the championship.
@wissoxfan83 . Kemper??? As many good memories as we have of AFH East, including the 1988 Championship, it is no longer feasible as it is scheduled to be razed in the near future. The place might have been state of the art in the early 70's when it was deigned and built, but towards the end it was dump in a crappy location.
As far as the Sprint Center, why leave even more money in Missouri that we already do? Any game played at the Sprint Center would have both team splitting the money; KU makes more playing at AFH, where it keeps the bulk of the money.
So much for a weak conference. Texas, the number 6 or 7 team in the Big 12 conference just beat UNC the number 1 or 2 team in the ACC... at the Dean dome.
winning the Big 12 conference is going to be tough as it is becoming pretty dang competitive.
Missouri has its best start in years and if you watch the games on TV, the arena is half empty. It is actually embarrassing watching free throws and the seats behind the basket are empty.
If we play them, no question it would be a sellout. Why give them the additional income and exposure considering that when they left, the placed the conference, and by extension KU, in jeopardy?
I recall Coach Self saying that KU gets $600K every time it plays at AFH. There is no way we get that anywhere else. KU has the highest resale value of any basketball team for its basketball tickets.
Now, playing WSU is the equivalent of a big, fit man (KU) fighting an little guy (WSU). There are two possible outcomes and neither is favorable to the big man. If he beats the little guy he is told he is a bully and he was expected to win any way; the second case, when the little guy beats the big man, the outcome is worse and incredibly embarrassing. As I said before, there is little upside for KU and big upside for WSU, monetary or otherwise.
Also, there are influential KSU alumni that do not want to see the KU-KSU game(s) take a second seat to a potential KU-WSU game.
@HighEliteMajor . I was never sold on Tarik and his current status is the logical progression from previous years. The new contact rules have greatly diminished his chances of success since physical, bruising players are now penalized and hard. aggressive defense discouraged. I think after this season, they might as well do away with the offensive foul, as it has become an "endangered" call.
@ralster .
How do you figure we are in weak conference? In the last few years, the Big 12 Conference has been consistently ranked in the top 3; currently the Big 12 is ranked #3 out of 33 conferences by Jeff Sagarin and 40% of its teams are ranked in the top 20. I don't believe any other conference has that high of a percentage.
I am not saying that Coach Self's objective is just to win the Conference; it is only the first and most immediate goal and achieving it places you in a good position for a March run. Not winning the Conference lowers your seeding and takes away the advantage of a higher seed playing close to home and lower ranked teams. A Conference title and a higher seed most definitely give you and advantage in March...remember the UCLA game in California or the Purdue game in Omaha to name the first ones that come to mind? Seeding and location made a big difference in those outcomes, wouldn't you agree?
@drgnslayr . I enjoyed your post because I can relate to it big time.
On a related note, I cringe every time I see or read of parents having their young kids, many times well under ten years old, training for long distance running by running miles on end on hard surfaces such as city streets. Even with the advances in running gear, by the time those kids are in their twenties, their knees and hips will be shot from the pounding the undeveloped joints will have taken.
To determine which title(s) is/are more important, we need to look at the process in context.
While the '88 title was nice and brought some attention to the program, the ensuing successful years under Coach Williams did a lot more to enhance the reputation of the program. Let's face it, in '88 KU was #6 seed and not even close to the best team, before or after the tournament, and only a magical run resulted in the final win and Championship. Other years when KU had a dominant team, a couple of bad breaks prevented a positive final outcome. One less three by Syracuse or Michigan, to name a few, and we might have more banners to hang at AFH.
March Madness is exactly that, 6 games that not always determine which is the best team. A conference title, on the other hand, it is better indicator of how good the team is over an extended period. Also, a conference title is good (but not definitive) indicator of how good of a run the team will likely in post season. Not winning the conference also tends to be a precursor to a shorter run in the big dance. Coach Self always says the main goal at the beginning of the season is to win the conference as it is the better indicator of how well the team will do in March. I agree.
National championships are a result of good play and a lot of luck during a couple of crazy weeks at the end of the season. Conference titles are an indicator of a season long excellence and playing conference games in your opponent court rather than (mostly) neutral sites.
The 9 conference titles and season long success have done more to enhance KU's standing than the national title in '08 which was the icing on an otherwise very rich cake.
@justanotherfan The object of the three year rule is not only to prepare the player for the NBA, but more importantly to give the student athlete a chance to make substantial progress towards a degree or in many cases complete the degree in 3 years, so if a professional career does not happen, he has a degree to fall back on. A two year rule would could not do this.
The question is did Florida and Colorado beat KU because they played well or because KU played poorly? The answer is probably a little of both but particularly in the Florida game, the ungodly number of turnover by KU in the first half killed any chance of winning. That is not to say that their defenses did not have an effect, the certainly did, but a large number of turnovers were unforced and a result of careless play. I would venture to say that if KU were to play Florida or Colorado next weekend at AFH, KU wins by double figures.
The theory makes sense; it also explains why Traylor is getting more minutes. As I have posted before, I like his motor and enthusiasm. Even when he is in the bench, he is actively cheering for the team, no "bowl of Cheerios" ala Anrio Adams, mind you, but just excited to be part of the team. Coaches love that. Kevin Young was that type of player last season; he would get excited after a good play and his enthusiasm was so contagious the he he would have not only the team but the crowd amped up as well. I do miss him.
Other players, such as Ellis and Wiggins have completely different personalities and you will not see them being expressive very often, on the other hand, they do let their playing do the talking...not a bad thing.
@jhawk7782 . Me too, but I am afraid that ship has sailed. There are many things that we wish would stay the same but they do and either you change and adapt as bests as you can or you are left behind.
The only thing that an possibly change the current trend is if the NBA changes the one and done rule to something like baseball has, where players can go pro after HS, but if they elect o go to college, they have to wait 3 years.
I have seen proposals where a panel of experts, likely NBA personnel, would compile a list of players that they believe can make the jump from HS, and only those players would be eligible to be drafted out of HS; the rest would have to go either to college or overseas. I can see some potential to that approach, but it would likely be contested in court for restriction of trade.
@jhawk7782 . RussRob was a scorer in HS. He gave that up to eventually become the rock of the '08 Championship team.
@homey What a nice story and awesome memories. I only had the pleasure of watching Wilt in his final years with the Lakers.
@ralster. A good number of posts on the KUSports Forum are downright embarrassing. I wonder what fans from other schools -scouting the local boards prior to playing KU- think.
There is no doubt that the better posters are now in this Forum. The knowledge level and content quality are so much better here; it is not even close. whoever implemented he policies at KUSports that resulted in an exodus of posters and a dramatic drop, not only in the quantity, but more importantly the quality of posts, should be fired; hard to believe management does not see the trend.
A few thoughts about the game.
You could not go wrong by picking Embiid or Ellis as MVPs of the game, they had excellent games and nothing much else need said. Embiids spin move and score is something you expect from an experienced player not from "newbie." Tharpe also had one terrific game even if it included 4 turnovers, he directed the offense masterfully and sent passes inside that allowed Embiid and Ellis to have terrific nights. We juts don't get that from Mason.
Are we ready to write Tarik off? Maybe not quite yet but it is getting close. Lucas looked good in the time he played, picked up rebounds and did not foul; his playing time will certainly increase. I still like Jamari's motor; even when he is in the sidelines he is constantly cheering the team. Coaches like that.
Looks like Greene will be playing more and more and he looked good at times. He still needs to maintain concentration at all times and had another silly turnover.
relatively quiet night for Wiggins but it is obvious that he is slowly becoming more confident and more assertive. Selden had a nice game for a chance; he was a good 3 point shooter in HS but he looks tentative; he need to let the game come to him instead of forcing shots.
I liked watching the team positively react when New Mexico cut the lead and go on another run; the killer instinct is slowly coming to them. All in all a good night.
Don't fret @nuleafhawk. The 2005 team with Rush, Chalmers, Wright, Robinson, Kaun and others started the season 3-4 and finished 25-8 including 13-3 in conference play.
Growing pains. The Florida game is the first time ever that KU started 4 freshmen. The team will get much better as the season moves on.
Look at the experience we had last year compared to this year starting five:
Last year:
McLemore - read shirt FR.
Johnson - SR.
Releford - 5th Yr. SR.
Young - 5th Yr. SR.
Whitey - 5th Yr. SR.
Total previous experience counting RS yr. = 16 Years. A tem starting all 5 4 year SRs. would have 15 years of total prior experience.
This year:
Mason - FR.
Selden - FR.
Wiggins - FR.
Embiid - FR.
Ellis - SO.
Total previous experience - 1 Year. Ellis was not even a starter last year.
Again, why are so many people surprised with inexperienced freshmen playing like inexperienced freshmen and having issues?
They will get better and by the March they will be playing at a different level.
RussRob was a crucial player in the '08 team and perhaps one of the more unheralded/underestimated players to ever play at KU. Think about it. When we think of the '08 team, the first name that comes to mind is Mario and "the" shot. After that is Rush and Arthur and Collins and "the" pass, and then Jackson and Kaun and finally RussRob...almost as an afterthought.
Without RussRob, KU does not win in '08, although in all fairness the same can be said to a certain extent of all the other starters.
@dylans. The KU Athletic Department has done more to reduce viewership (through the misguided contract with Time Warner) than WSU ever could. ,
Traditionally point guards tend to be the leaders since they direct the flow of the offense; in essence they are like a general directing the action even if they are not directly involved in the final play. I seem to recall that Coach Self once upon a time refereed to Tharpe just that way.
Also, if I remember correctly, Mason played SG and not PG in High School and he may still be learning to do what PG does, vocally direct the offense traffic. Hopefully he will grow into the position since it is his natural position and more fitted to his natural ability and size.
Collins, even as a freshman, had a lot more intensity than Mason...or most any other player, and he hated to lose. Collins was a bulldog; I just don't see the same fire in Mason, at least not yet.
Zero upside for us, sky high upside for them.
We are not in the business of promoting other teams, even if they are in the same state. We play KSU because they are in the same conference, plus we own Bramlage...or at least it seems like we do.
Perry Ellis is one of KU's top two scorers, you could even make a case he is the best. KU will not win many games when he tales only 3 shots; he made 2, by the way.
Perry plays a position in which ne needs to receive precise passes inside so he can go to work using the many moves he has already shown he has. In the last few games, whether it is by the increased playing time by Mason or the inability of the perimeter players to beat the zone, his touches have become less and the inside scoring threat has greatly diminished. Other than Embiid, Perry is our best inside scoring option and the coaching staff need to figure out way to attack the zone where he gets a lot more touches than he has lately.
A few assorted thoughts.
Once again, freshmen playing like freshmen, why are so many people surprised? Last years Kentucky freshmen class did not even make it to the dance and lost a first round game to Bobby MO in the NIT.
Someone said Florida will be in the chase in March? In March we will beat them by double digits; we actually beat them by 9 in the second half.
Tarik's line 0 points, 2 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 fouls in 6 minutes. Jamari's line 5 points, 9 rebounds, 1 assist and 2 fouls in 17 minutes. The question is... why is Tarik getting 6 minutes?
The more influential plays in the last couple of minutes:
Tarik misses bunny form 1 foot out.
No foul call on Wigging drive to the basket down 4 points. We don't get any points and Florida get the ball. Worst call of the season so far. Even Dick Vitale briefly stopped watching reruns of the Duke game to indicate what a bad call it was.
Green misses the ball and turns it over with little time left.
Any of those 3 plays above, particularly the foul on Wiggins, goes differently and the odds of stealing the game would have gone up considerably.
When Wigging is in beast mode he is unstoppable and we just got a taste of what he can do...as Jack Wilson tells Philo Beddoe (in Any which way you can)...pleasure watching you work...
The only other players with some semblance of passion are Green and Traylor; the rest seem too complacent. Maybe the shorter boot camp has something to do with it.
As much as the first half reminded me of the TCU game (ouch!!!), I did see a lot of things I liked in the second half; hopefully the experience will serve them well in the future.
@JayDocMD - I think you are being too hard on Keegan, He is not a reporter that writes about the facts of the story and nothing more or even an analyst; Keegan is an opinion writer/columnist and as such, he does just that, he comments on the story.
I found his background information about the game in Vegas entertaining and the parts about the boatload of players in that game that ended up in the NBA informative. Again, Keegan is not a reporter, he s an opinion writer.
@HighEliteMajor - I think you nicely summarize several points I have been making about Black ever since he announced he was coming to KU.
It is said that those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. If we look at Tarik's stint at Memphis, we are seeing the logical progression, or maybe we should call it regression, in his development. Whatever upside he had has been greatly diminished by the new foul rules. As I mentioned before, I believe he is starting now so the refs can get their ticky-tack fouls (designed to set the tone of the game) out of the way, and the game has settled some. Also, whatever assurances he was given about starting likely will go away once conference play starts.
At this point, Tarik is a 3 quick fouls, a couple of rebound and points and 5 minutes of playing time type of player. Frankly, I like Traylor's motor and upside a lot more and I would prefer to see Lucas get more playing time at center, where he can contribute, not only now but also in future years; no such upside with Tarik.
I don't know what bball psycho babble Self is using...
crazy system,...
Self plays mind games with players, thinking he will "break" them into Bill Self coached players...
The pg situation is goofy....
The 3pt shooter issue is stupid....
I don't mean to be uncivil and it is nothing personal...but really???
Here is an article about the new rules...and KU...
The chances that the rules will change in mid season are zero. The NCAA claims that these are, by and large, not new rules but simply being enforced more rigorously. However, I would not be surprised if by tournament time the refs are told to ease up to allow for better continuity and avoid a parade to the foul line.
It is a good thing that Ed Hightower retired, with so many fouls being called, by now he would have pulled every muscle in his body
High School game: One McDonald's All-American playing against kids that work at MacDonald's with referees that are supervisors at MacDonald's.
@drgnslayr. The circle gets even worse. Last year, as long as the player was outside the circle with his feet planted, he always drew the charge. Now, he has to have his feet planted before the offensive player leaves his feet...and even if he jumps into the defender, and since this is a judgment call, 9 out of 10 times it is called a blocking foul.
The new rules have eliminated good defense for the sake of more scoring. I believe Coach Self saw this coming before anyone realized how much it would affect play, and he is still trying to figure out how to re-tool his style of play so the team can still play tough defense without fouling out or playing zone. If he does not come up with solution soon, he will have to consider playing zone like most everybody else has. This is not good, since the NBA plays strictly man to man and playing zone does not prepare players for the next step.