Waah, waah, waah Jackson County Missouri and Missouri politicians decrying the Kansas legislature's STAR Bonds to try to lure the Chiefs to Wyndotte County. I wonder what percentage of Chiefs' staff and players already live in Kansas. Imagine a Sofi-like stadium next to the Kansas Speedway. It's fun to think about. My junior high self would have challenged: Come on Missery do something about it.
I hope they do so Kansas doesn't have to finance this boondoggle.
Just sounds like a lot of politician grand standing. Would be fairly surprised to see a move when the Chiefs would have been happy with the $800m renovation. Chiefs are just trying to get leverage on the city for the next vote/MO proposal which probably would have passed already if it wasn't weighted down by the royals stadium deal. Even if they have to drop the funding split to 50/50 to get it to pass, that would only be a $400 million cost for the chiefs vs the reported ~$550 relocation fees the the Chargers/rams are reported to be paying. Maybe the Chiefs wouldn't have as big of a fee since they are staying in the same metro, but it hardly seems worth the hassle and negative publicity and I can see the league feeling this way too and not even approving it.
I'm thinking of all the +'s. Dome, super bowls, final fours, concerts.... big 12 championships or whatever it will be. I need to hear more about cost.
Taxpayers pay for 75% of the project plus tickets, Clark gets lots of money from working folks when he could write the check himself if it was a great investment. (Itâs not)
@FarmerJayhawk explain the bonds. Is this all of Kansas on the taxes? Does hunt live in Kansas?
Tax payers pay for STAR bonds?
@Crimsonorblue22 yeah, the sales taxes from the new district pay off the bonds. So the Hunts get all this guaranteed revenue from a new stadium at really no cost to them. And if there's a default at the end of the day it's not ideal. The state forgoes all that revenue just to pay off the debt. And they have a horrific record. Only 2/16 STAR projects have met their tourism goals and are still around. It's one of these things that we teach in basic Econ and public finance that the record is that public money for stadiums doesn't work but politicians loooooove ribbon cuttings and sitting in the owners box.
@Woodrow yes. If you go to a game or anywhere in the STAR district you pay for the infrastructure plus the price of admission. Where typically a business would pay for its own buildings and such and you'd just pay for a good or service and sales tax on top. It would be like putting in a garden at your house where you could charge people to come see it. The sales tax, instead of remitting to the state, goes right in your pocket for building the garden.
STAR bonds are sold - people can buy them, the Chiefs will likely buy some, the Hunts will likely buys some. That money is repaid by tax revenue from that district over a thirty year term. Tax money that would not exist without the stadium.
If you live one block from the stadium and never go to a game or purchase anything from within that new area you pay zero taxes. An area that you a producing no taxes currently. New revenue created by the project to pay for the project. You never get something like that from the government. They always just want to tax everyone. This seems like a fair solution that not only creates a possible uptick in revenue, but is billed as a way of not creating taxes for those that donât use it.
Forgot to post this earlier but the record of public investments in stadiums is absolutely dismal. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4340483 â
So at the end of the day weâre going to use a program batting .125 for a type of project with no record of success. BANG UP JOB
@FarmerJayhawk why look at a WVU study done by academics with no skin in any game? University studies almost always say what you pay them to say. Those studies are garbage because itâs based on people with no basis in the real world, theyâre easily manipulated. Meanwhile there is wildly successful STAR bond project that was passed for the race track. Also the amazon warehouse. Some fail, but the recent local track record is pretty good.
@dylans because I know the methodology and data required to estimate economic impact. Do you? Or are you just shooting the messenger? Thereâs no money behind a lit review, my dude. Iâve done a bunch of academic studies and have only been contracted for one. There was a clause in the contract it was going to be published no matter the results. And thatâs standard. Go find an economist who thinks these are good deals for taxpayers. Itâs totally non-ideological and is taught in undergrad micro and public finance classes.
If youâre concerned about bought and paid for studies look at the economic impact âstudies.â Go ask them for their data and methods and see if they give them to you (theyâll laugh). If they do itâll be like Scoop and Scoreâs $900 million number. Theyâre counting estimated impact to the metro as a whole as impact to just Kansas. Which, that impact estimate was a Chiefs commissioned study. So if youâre following the money, look at that. And do they have training in economics? Probably not. They wouldnât know what a regression was if it slapped them in the face and called them mommy.
And the figure I cite is from state auditors, who are tasked by the legislature with rigorously studying state programs. And ask why other state legislatures donât use STAR bonds. Itâs not exactly a secret.
I was also a senior staffer in the legislature at one point and know a couple former Secretaries of Commerce. They all agreed the Border War was bad policy and we shouldnât do it anymore. This is insanity.
@FarmerJayhawk is there another way to make this work? Have hunt guarantee a certain amout? Would mahomes? Could we lose them to, say Dallas?
@Crimsonorblue22 thereâs no threat the Chiefs are going anywhere but KC. Owners would never approve of them going to the metroplex. Voters are increasingly rejecting incentives for stadiums. I have no problem if Clark wants to buy some land over here and build it. SoFi in LA was privately funded, so I would support that for sure. Busch in St. Louis was 90% private money.
@FarmerJayhawk Data coming from universities is often flawed by methodology in my many of my experiences, flawed by work ethic in others, and further flawed by the researchers biases. The government (lawmakers and universities both) will freely lie to the people to get what they want without repercussions.
personal examples I can point to are not in the economic field as I donât give it much merit, it has very limited usefulness. Economists are just people with no skin in the game telling everyone whatâs going to happen like the weather man - wrong all the time, but no accountability. But I know the previous researcher at KSU would only release the results of herbicide trials if they gave the expected outcome, otherwise ndaâs went into effect. I also know her methodology was poor, her follow thru was shit, but her presentations were bubbly and full of information that she fed you whether it was properly researched or not.
Economic impact studies, just like any other study, can be twisted to say whatever you want. I just wish I was so naive to think otherwise.
The votes on the Kansas stadium-financing plan were 84-38 in the state House and 27-8 in the Senate. Lawmakers from across the state â even western Kansas, far from any new stadium â supported the measure.
It would allow state bonds to cover up to 70% of each new stadium, paying them off over 30 years with revenues from sports betting, state lottery ticket sales and new sales and alcohol taxes collected from shopping and entertainment districts around the new stadiums.
-areowheadpride.com
@dylans again, I ask. Do you know the methodology and data necessary to do a rigorous economic impact study? Do you have any real critiques of the studies Iâve cited? Or just vague generalities?
Data almost never come from universities, itâs up to individual researchers to collect and analyze. Shouldnât researchers have no skin in the game? That sounds like a recipe for bias. Which is why if weâre given any money for research it has to be disclosed on page 1 of the paper. This ethics stuff isnât complicated. If thereâs a small mountain of evidence pointing in the same direction and almost none the other way, thereâs definitely something to it.
Funding smunding, if the Chiefs move to Kansas all I want to do is stand on State Line Road, drop trou and show my bare butt to all of Missouri.
@FarmerJayhawk sample size is crap my friend. That is how you skew results. Use local data not national. Itâs already proven to work right in thatâs area! Sheesh whatâs better a study by academics or an actual working example just a few miles down the road?
Youâre in the bipartisan minority. Maybe tell your representative.
@dylans what do you mean by that? Decades of work showing convulsively that these incentives arenât good investments? Again, read what Iâve cited. This holds for all sorts of locales. But sure thereâs something unique about KC that will wildly change things. Itâs like that scene in Arrested Development where theyâre like yeah itâs never worked for other people, but maybe this time lol.
Oh I have. Troy has long known my feelings about these things. He got a kick out of my âitâs not socialism if itâs going to sports!â line when I texted him the other day. Big KU fan, super nice guy, good friend, but heâs simply wrong here.
@FarmerJayhawk I mean itâs already a proven winner in the area for the racetrack. Why look at a study when you have actual working proof right in front of your face? You have your mind made up, I can respect that. You donât want to subsidize billionaires in this way. Fair enough. The area will not get developed and no taxes will be created nor utilized. That line of thinking is why Kansas has steadily gone backwards economically since the late eighties. It used to be a fairly progressive state when it came to attracting business, now it all goes across the line due to better policies.
@stoptheflop You can do that anyway. Any day of the week.
@dylans big difference. The track wasnât 10 miles away. 2/16 STAR projects have met their stated goals. There are good reasons almost no other states use them.
Hey look I just want Clark to pull himself up by his bootstraps and pay for his own hobby. If he canât afford it maybe get a second job.
Kansas not doing a lot of corporate welfare is good. Many audits of those programs have shown a real lack of effectiveness and even outright fraud. Everyone agreed the Border War was dumb so we stopped doing it. Our economic struggles have much more to do with demographics and other long term factors, not how much taxpayer money we throw at companies that donât need it. https://www.kslpa.org/audit-report-library/evaluating-the-department-of-commerces-major-economic-development-incentive-programs/ â
Math says the nfl salary cap is 255million and increases at a rate of 8% annually.
That amounts to a little over 30.8 billion in Chiefs player salary alone pad out over the 30 year period. Of that 15.4 billion would be taxable by Kansas at 5%. The income tax on the player salaries alone would total 770 million. Just the income tax on the players not the staff, not the taxes generated by tourists, not the revenue generated for the community that gets taxed. Just the players salaries will generate three quarters of a billion in tax revenue for the STAR bonds.
Also the opponents have the same salary cap and have to pay income taxes when they play in Kansas, so you can double that total. As in the STAR bonds will be completely paid for by the income tax generated by the players alone.
Add in 2-3 super bowls and that economic impact over the 30 year period as well. Itâs really a no brainer to want to attract an NFL team.
tldr - The players will generate 1.5 billion in income tax alone thru the life of the STAR bonds, which should be around 1.5 billion as well
Good thing is if youâre correct @FarmerJayhawk these business in Lawrence wonât feel any impact. https://www.kctv5.com/2024/01/31/businesses-lawrence-fear-economic-impact-ku-games-kansas-city/?outputType=amp â
@FarmerJayhawk Boeing pulled most of its business out of Wichita and moved it to Seattle due to policy. OKC is booming with previous Kansas business due to better policy. Itâs very common for business to close shop in Kansas and just move to OKC or Texas and find great success.
@FarmerJayhawk Ignoring the math I see. There is zero substance behind your argument.
@dylans I've made substantive arguments and cited a ton of sources, none of which you critiqued except to say they're all rigged. The evidence for which you had none. You also didn't address the LPA audits that found significant underperformance of Kansas's economic incentive programs. I can give you chapter and verse on why the Chiefs estimates are bought and paid for propaganda and economic malpractice if you'd like.
@dylans this is apples and oranges. Arrowhead would move about 10 miles. It would generate no additional economic activity outside that narrow space, just redistribute it. They aren't even leaving the metro. Businesses in LFK will be fine, they survived for years when nobody came out for games. One year won't kill them. Maybe Black Stag but that place runs at a loss anyway.
@FarmerJayhawk Completely ignoring a very easy math reality to site studies is what is wrong with permanent residents of academia.
Math checks out. Farmer is just being a hater, too dug in to face facts. The NFL is a cash printing press.
@dylans seriously, what math? You cite a single project. And some vagaries about how my entire field is a fraudulent enterprise and something something sample size. Do the studies not have sufficient statistical power? Are their error terms wrong in their models? I can tell you the Chiefs study model is stunningly bad. Itâs bad press release, nothing more.
Clearly putting the Chiefs over here will work because of all the development that current Arrowhead has generated. After all who doesnât love a good vacation in Raytown?
Yes Iâve cited such fancy metrics as âreturn on investmentâ and âbut for analysis.â Absolutely far beyond anyone with a room temperature IQ to understand.
And I love the NFL, watch RedZone every Sunday. But there are good reasons both governors said shutting down the Border War was good policy. Moving a few enterprises a few miles for billions in taxpayer funds was a giant waste of money and put both states at financial risk. I was in the same room with a former Secretary of Commerce that warned if we started it again it could ruin the stateâs financial position given their horrendous record of performance.
@FarmerJayhawk Itâs simple math and thatâs why your field is a mess. You would rather site a study than admit youâre wrong about the exact example we are referencing. If you can entice any business, let alone a business that attracts tourism, that has a projected payroll of 1-2 billion dollars(depends if you figure 5 or 8% annual increase in the salary cap) a year at the end of the term and only cost 1.5 billion to entice, the economics are simple. Any money that is created over the players income tax is positive revenue. Let that sink in.
Youâre upset because I called your methodology into question. The exact reason I do so is because you are so entrenched in the studies that you are ignoring the known outcomes in this case. Itâs like you wonât admit that this is easily paid for by player salary income tax alone because someone did a study somewhere about some entirely different business that happened to be funded the same way. Do any of those 16 examples have a minimum employee salary distribution of 255 million with 5-8% annual growth proven over the last 25 years? No they donât, so theyâre irrelevant and yet you keep circling back to worthless info.
@dylans well, if we must. Arrowhead in KC would bring in about 195 people per day of the year. That's about the same as a small shopping mall. Is it worth billions of incentives to bring in a... mall?
Yeah, but what about the income taxes? Well, chop that number in half. You're looking at 10ish income generating events per year. The top state income tax rate will be 5.8%. 5.8% of $2 billion is... $116 million. If you spread that over the life of the bonds it can fund a rural school district for a while I guess?
And sure, people will spend to go to them. But budgets are relatively fixed. How many people come from outside the area? And from those here, do they already spend their entertainment budget in Kansas? If so, that sales tax revenue goes to the state to fund things we all want: roads, hospitals, etc. If they spend additional money, cool. But it'll come at the expense of other things in the state (again, budgets are fixed) because the sales tax revenue has to go to debt service, and will be from other parts of the family budget.
Let's look at the Braves stadium as an example. That development got about $300m in subsidies. What happened? Well, the stadium sure generated a bunch of sales tax revenue. Beer is expensive! Unfortunately, it was at the expense of other businesses in the community so it was basically a wash except for the taxpayers were on the hook for tens of millions in annual debt service.
The Chiefs math here is pretty simple. Moving about 20 miles will generate over $900 million in annual economic activity. Which, to put mildly, is INSANE. It more or less assumes ALL Chiefs related activity would move across the border, e.g. all players, coaches, and staff would not spend a nickel in Missouri. And each dollar invested here would generate on the order of $40 in additional economic benefits. It's extraordinarily rare to find post hoc estimates of this multiplier over FIVE.
@FarmerJayhawk 5.8% of 30 billion. The salary cap goes up 5-8% every year and is currently 255million it projects to 1-2 billion per year in 25-30 years. Come on man! Itâs easy math, youâre way over complicating it. Plus the local sales tax stays local with star bond projects - ie there will be added income to Wyandotte county or wherever it lands.
I figured an economist could easily figure some really basic stuff out, but youâre really proving my point of how easily the data is skewed when providing outcome driven results. The 1,200 workers on the home games will pay taxes. The parking lot will collect fees, tickets will be sold, hotdogs and beer will be bought. This is all taxed and is income above the already paid for star bonds by the players income tax alone. Oh yeah the Hunts get to pay taxes on their half of the revenue to Kansas as well. The income from a couple super bowls (that will never happen in Arrowhead). But wait thereâs more itâs a dome - add in revenue from possible final four games, concerts, etc. Then add in revenue from sports betting in the venue, hotel income, dining, bars - getting people in your town instead of a county over creates a boat load of income producing opportunities.
https://www.kmbc.com/article/closer-look-at-star-bond-projects-in-kansas/61180045 â
Hereâs some examples not in Atlanta
@FarmerJayhawk But, gee, I thought that every penny of corporate welfare always produces hundreds of millions of dollars in tax revenue! I so fondly remember how trickle down economics of the 80's made so made impoverished people into millionaires. Or was that millionaires into billionaires?
And I am soooooo looking forward to the plan of a certain ex-president to eliminate income tax altogether and to initiate 100% tarrifs!!! Our economy will just burst at the seams as inflation goes into double-digits with prices for many consumer goods being doubled! Combined with eliminating numerous agencies and voiding federal regs left and right, there might be a few hiccups associated with throwing 2 million federal employees out of work, and flying will be a tad more dangerous without actual air traffic controllers and because we will let every manufacturer self-certify like Boeing, and without those safety fanatics at the FDA untested drugs could wreak havoc, but those things aren't as important as making the top 1% richer than King Midas while surfing on the delusions of millions going broke. And gosh, without OSHA we can finally get back to having more emergecy medical care like we have always wanted.
Wow, too bad you don't understand math, being so confused by all those dozens of impartial economic studies and your years of education and experience and useless stuff like that.
@dylans thatâs a whole drop in the bucket in terms of SGF, which in 30 years will be well over $100 billion. And cut that number in half unless the NFL lets the Chiefs play every game at home. If it is a dome then weâre looking at $2.4ish billion in bonds. So both your revenue and expense figures are wrong. Weirdly both in the direction that make it look like a good deal. Assuming that growth when participation in football is going down (7% the last 5 years) in favor of other sports is a nice touch too.
Thereâs also no evidence a new stadium will produce significant additional development given whatâs already there. See current Arrowhead. People donât go out to bars and restaurants for NFL games. They sit in the parking lot and drink beer they likely bought in Missouri. Or Kansas, but thatâs not new spending. Just reallocating from couch beers to parking lot beers. And of course itâs taxed, thatâs what the ST stands for lol.
Consumers are paying for both the infrastructure via taxes and the privilege of being there. Thatâs the whole point. Where normally youâd have a developer pay for the building and such and if the product or service was good it would easily pay for itself.
That article is fun because it doesnât cite the state audit that reported the STAR bond program overall a failure at driving tourism given the metrics in statute. But Iâm sure the law is just wrong.
@FarmerJayhawk The away team has to pay taxes, just like the Chiefs do when on the road. Youâre so entrenched in your position that you canât even do the straight line logic there. Iâm sorry itâs such a sore point to you, but the bright side is if you never set foot on the stadium you will not pay any taxes. Thatâs the point of STAR bonds, show your principals and just donât go.
And if the STAR bonds become available to the general public in a denomination I can afford I would put my money where my mouth is.
Wow, i am now officially fascinated with STAR bonds. I've been reading like a madman the last day or so. (i don't live in Kansas).
I'm sure i'll have some thoughts eventually, but these state documents provide some base knowledge.
Some basic facts can be found here in the STAR bonds annual report. I find it lacking in some details (re: ROI on STAR bonds), but has project basics like bonds issues, outstanding, tax revenue:
This doc is older (2021), but very interesting reading. Points made by the a non-partisan audit division of the Kansas government. Very interesting point/counterpoint/responses at the end from communities involved in STAR bond projects.
Enjoy! I have.
@dylans ok, that's still about the same income tax revenue as a shopping mall, but for billions in new debt. I'm not a Chiefs fan so I won't, never been to Arrowhead, never will go to a stadium in Kansas because it's just not my scene. I'm a huge Bears fan and they're trying to fleece the city of Chicago too. I oppose all public subsidies for stadiums and corporate welfare. I'm a free market, work for and buy what you want with your own money guy what can I say
@rockchalkjayhawk I can add a little color there. When I was in government we tried to get those numbers but Commerce would never provide them, citing NDAs and such nonsense (why revenue figures should be kept from the public when the public is financing the project should raise a hell of a lot of questions but alas). Same restrictions apply to this deal. We taxpayers can't see inside the Chiefs or Royals books, or in a very recent example, we weren't allowed to know the state was even in discussions with Panasonic until the bill passed and the deal was signed. Aside from the bad economics, the public should be livid about that.
Last point on this, Kansas has a tax credit for residents that pay taxes in other states. So if a bunch of people relocate across the state line and work on away games, Kansas refunds a nice chunk of their income taxes paid elsewhere. So again itâs more millionaires getting a nice subsidy while we pay for it. Twice.
@FarmerJayhawk On the other hand, relocating the teams will result in millions of people finally being correct about how Kansas City's teams "are in Kansas, right?" This will save us ex-KCers from Kansas, now living hundreds of miles away, from untold hours of frustration, resulting in no longer wasting massive amounts for therapy...or bourbon. (Ok, the bourbon is a fixed cost.)
Aggregate savings of hundreds! That is more than 2 billion, right?
@FarmerJayhawk I guess youâre not for attracting any business that generates positive tax revenue if it requires luring them with incentives. I suppose you would call it corporate welfare. The thing is this is more like the Jesus fishing parable than a government handout - it will actually return the tax money and then some. The free money the government gave to the public caused inflation without job creation and left the people with a lifetime of greater future expenses that far outweigh the pittance they received. This is what happens when you give gobs of money to us peons instead of the fortunate few that can actually use it for the greater good even if it further lines their pockets. Lining their pockets, but creating jobs for us normal folks.
You can deflect to projects that didnât work as planned, but none of them involved nfl teams. Iâm afraid youâre stuck with your confirmation bias and simply cannot see how this project should actually be very profitable.
Near as I can tell the economic failure of the previous STAR bond projects isnât the inability to repay the bonds, itâs simply that more Kansans are enjoying the nice new things in Kansas than out of state folks. Isnât that terrible?!?
@dylans indeed, it has to pass a "but for" and other analyses that say the project did add additional money and increase income in the area, not just reallocate existing spending, which is what the STAR bond projects that didn't pass LPA's audit found. I'd rather people frequent existing local establishments than reallocate spending toward publicly subsidized ones.
It doesn't generate any growth, just people already there adjust their spending toward the new and shiny thing while existing businesses lose. That's what happens with most big stadium projects. So other local businesses are losing revenue while people spend their money to pay off debt at a project that may be there without the bonds anyway. LPA found most Kansas incentive programs couldn't provide the "but for" assurance Commerce identifies as the main goal of incentive programs.
If tax revenue is what you're after, oops. "We estimated none of the incentive programs will return more than $1 in tax effect returns per $1 of incentive costs... These results show the incentive programs donât likely cover their own costs in terms of state tax effects. In other words, the future tax effects likely wonât fully cover the state monies awarded as incentives for these programs." In other words, you're better off doing exactly nothing than awarding incentives.
Now on the NFL stadiums thing, WyCo does have some unique factors that will blunt the impact of a new stadium. There are already a ton of hotel rooms, restaurants, and whatnot over there. There won't be a lot of new development. Especially since KCMO is so close. Many (most?) won't even stay and spend all their money in Kansas. They'll just come over for the game. And not all development will be new, Commerce has retained significant eminent domain authority to bulldoze whatever business it wants in the new STAR district for the stadium, again replacing existing spending. I would doubt most "jobs created" would even result in significant consumption in WyCo. Most likely live across the border since there isn't any real housing over there, and there won't be. Housing doesn't generate sales tax revenue so there would be no reason to put it in a STAR district, which has to be huge in size given the multiple billions in debt.
@FarmerJayhawk 𼹠there is no such business that âloseâ for the dodge city or garden city water parks. There simply isnât anywhere local to spend your money on like that. It didnât relocate money from one business to another, it relocated it from peopleâs savings.
It doesnât matter what you or anyone else thinks, we donât even get to vote on the matter.
@dylans sounds like a great opportunity for someone to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, do some entrepreneurship, and start a business! If you just work hard enough Iâm sure you can make a bunch of money without a government handout. So if youâre willing to put the work in like you surely are considering your unparalleled work ethic, write up a business plan and take it to a bank.
Surely if it creates sufficient new economic activity youâll get the loan and itâll pay off for sure without government assistance. If not, you just have to work harder. Put in more hours in the heat. Pull yourself up by your swim trunks.
@FarmerJayhawk Your talking to the wrong guy - if I understand correctly you work for the university - ie part of the problem. Government jobs will never create anything but debt for me. Iâm self employed, I pay my taxes (self employment taxes are extra special!) while getting little to nothing from the government in return. My grandfather was an entrepreneur who started over a dozen business. Maybe that is why I am not offended by the money required to create such a boon to the local economy, I understand what it takes.
Those bonds will be paid for by the project, as every other star bond project has been with the exception of the schlitterbon murder water park.
It sounds like someone who just moved to Kansas and has no clue about how things actually are used is making judgements about the success or failure of business based upon studies that are incomplete in there assessment of the value returned to the people who actually live here.
The wasted tax dollars are not on these projects that are paying for actually themselves itâs government positions like University professor or whomever does these poorly done economic studies that are robbing the people - how much did it cost to come up with that result that doesnât line up with the reality of the situation?
TLDR - go out and experience the things built with STAR bond money in Kansas, see the Kansans that are enjoying it and then tell me it was wasted money.
@dylans literally none of what you wrote about me is true but thank you for telling how to do the job I donât have (Iâm in the private sector) and telling me how long Iâve lived in Kansas (all but 8 years of my life) Good to know! Seriously so glad youâre so knowledgeable about my situation. Even I learned something! Also my grandpa started one of the last private grain elevators in the country and Iâm still involved in managing the family farm so donât lecture me on the âreal worldâ or some nonsense phrase boomers use to tell anyone a day younger then them theyâre wrong without any substance.
Again still waiting on substantive criticisms of the mountain of economic studies here. Theyâre free to read and you can take your time if you need to read slowly to get your facts straight since thatâs a major problem for you.
@FarmerJayhawk All you have is your hugely flawed studies that tell you what to think. Form your own thoughts and get back to me. 8 years wow!!! 𤯠Ironically Iâm not that much older than you, just have different much different experiences.
The âfailureâ is a lack of a long distance draw. The bonds are all getting repaid, with one exception. That is only a failure by drawing up ridiculous definitions of what a success is. Repaying your debt and while creating jobs and activities for local people is hardly a failure. Half of all new business shutter their doors in 5 years, that is a failure.
By that definition your grandpaâs elevator was a huge failure. No doubt he borrowed some money to build it, repaid the loan and successfully operated it for many years. However the money he accumulated came from the local community and so his success meant someone else local lost, therefore it was an economic failure under these terms. - a ridiculous statement that I believe in no way, but it seems to be your argument against the star bonds.
Guys.........you sound like me and Jayballer - except smarter. Kiss and make up and lets call names to Mizzou fans.
@dylans said in So, Kansas Reinstated the Border War (for the Chiefs):
By that definition your grandpaâs elevator was a huge failure. No doubt he borrowed some money to build it, repaid the loan and successfully operated it for many years. However the money he accumulated came from the local community and so his success meant someone else local lost, therefore it was an economic failure under these terms. - a ridiculous statement that I believe in no way, but it seems to be your argument against the star bonds.
I don't care to add to either side but lets keep a clear mind here and not argue in bad faith. Whatever hypothetical loan you are talking about would not have been paid back with taxes and can't be compared to the star bonds.
@dylans yes how dare I use objective evidence. I think people who want to practice medicine should just wing it, donât read books or anything like that. They canât see viruses or bacteria so how do they even know theyâre real? Why should we use RCTs to judge the effectiveness of drugs? Theyâre just academics who havenât been in the real world. We should just go with our gut on that.
lol thatâs an insane characterization of my position. You clearly have no interest in taking my position in good faith so weâre done here.
Star Bonds, is that Trumps latest hooker? Oh, nm.
Clearly, Iâm rusty at playing peacekeeper. Thanks guys.
I think it's been an interesting discussion.
@stoptheflop I do that every week haha
@approxinfinity sheâs in love with his massive⌠bankruptcies đ
@dylans said in So, Kansas Reinstated the Border War (for the Chiefs):
Data coming from universities is often flawed by methodology in my many of my experiences, flawed by work ethic in others, and further flawed by the researchers biases
Wow. Please don't tell me you favor data generated by corporations and associations over academic institutions.
Bias is possible with any study, any institution. But if the source is corporations and associations, which have potential conflict of interest, you just have to be more skeptical.
... I have never heard that there is a difference in research rigor from private vs public sources. If that's true, it would be interesting.
So i have done a ton of reading on STAR bonds after reading the two combatants above!
There's no simple answer. They are both right, with some chaos by both thrown in as well.
The good: It brings new and exciting things to the community. I imagine lots of people in Kansas are happy that these new things exist in their communities. That's hard to put a price tag on. You can argue it doesn't cost the tax payer a thing if successful. It eventually brings in a new taxable base for the city/county.
The not so good: You're basically for free publicly financing work that a gazillionaire could do privately. Depending on the STAR bond, most if not all of the taxes collected after the project opens go directly to pay back the bond. So none of that taxable base would go toward city/county coffers for other use. And if it works out, the payback for the bonds could be 30 years for the Chiefs project. So you're losing out on tax money for a long ass time. If there's a default, that's a problem.
So i dunno. I like nice things. There's lots of not so good in there, but if the bonds are eventually paid off as promised, no harm no foul?
"The reason we started on it so early is that we studied those cities that had problems with their teams," Lamping said. "Unfortunately there have been cities that have lost their NFL teams and they generally all have the same thing in common. It's a smaller market. The team doesn't have a lease tying them to the city and they have an unresolved stadium problem.â
@rockchalkjayhawk said in So, Kansas Reinstated the Border War (for the Chiefs):
So i have done a ton of reading on STAR bonds after reading the two combatants above!
There's no simple answer. They are both right, with some chaos by both thrown in as well.
The good: It brings new and exciting things to the community. I imagine lots of people in Kansas are happy that these new things exist in their communities. That's hard to put a price tag on. You can argue it doesn't cost the tax payer a thing if successful. It eventually brings in a new taxable base for the city/county.
The not so good: You're basically for free publicly financing work that a gazillionaire could do privately. Depending on the STAR bond, most if not all of the taxes collected after the project opens go directly to pay back the bond. So none of that taxable base would go toward city/county coffers for other use. And if it works out, the payback for the bonds could be 30 years for the Chiefs project. So you're losing out on tax money for a long ass time. If there's a default, that's a problem.
So i dunno. I like nice things. There's lots of not so good in there, but if the bonds are eventually paid off as promised, no harm no foul?
Our local billionaire funded tons of amazing projects - stuff that would never happen otherwise like a dance studio. Unfortunately Cecil passed away and they donât grow billionaires on trees in western Kansas. Hell, trees barely grow.
As for the two water parks in western Kansas that are labeled failures - the money is mostly local (thus the âfailureâ), but itâs keeping the money local (so itâs a net positive for the area). There is no similar place locally youâd have to travel 3-6 hours away to blow that money before. On occasion one of the parks will entice us into to that town and weâll do a Walmart pickup order (small town living $500 per trip for 2-3 weeks worth of supplies) while there, minor stimulus. Success or failure depends upon the lenses you view it with - retaining local money is important too!
With the Chiefs stadium - it would likely be 60% Kansas people that would be spending money there, locals that make the numbers look bad in the study. However 100% of those dollars were going to another state before so itâs all new income not just the 40% or so from out of state. -as is the employee income and if Clark moves the Chiefs headquarters to Kansas as well his roughly half of the pie too.
Oddly enough we just got back Sunday from KC, we did a private tour of arrowhead not knowing how much longer it would be there. I hope the chiefs move to Kansas for sure but it has to be the right situation. I donât want higher taxes, if thatâs what it takes Iâm out. You donât want me to get going on the tax situation in this country. The Hunt family is worth Billions of dollars they could probably pay for a large chunk of it and fundraise the rest if they really wanted a new stadium. The cheaper suites in that place are north of a 100k a year and have to be reserved for a 5 year span. Most of them were nicer then houses. It was a pretty cool experience. The top of that place is super sketchy about like climbing a ladder and you feel like youâre gonna fall down while sitting.
I have no skin in the game, but do know the feeling of losing an NFL team due to a city refusing to bend the knee to a billionaire owner that didn't want to pay for his own stadium. I don't give a shit that Bud Adams was a Jayhawk, fuck him and I hope he's rotting in he'll for what he pulled with the Oilers here in Houston.
With the recent player ratings of team facilities and such that recently came out, we all found out how much of a cheapskate Clark Hunt really is. I'd say if he wants a new stadium, either pay up to renovate Arrowhead or buy land out by Legends and build a new stadium himself with his own money. Taxpayers in the KC metro area, regardless of which county and side of the border they are on, should not give Clark Hunt one cent of public funding for a stadium or renovations.
If these stadiums provided the ROI claimed to swindle the public to vote for them, then the owners of these teams would have zero issues building and paying for everything themselves because they would make a nice profit from those deals. Since owners don't do that, that should be a big red flag to people that these kinds of deals aren't money makers.
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in So, Kansas Reinstated the Border War (for the Chiefs):
If these stadiums provided the ROI claimed to swindle the public to vote for them, then the owners of these teams would have zero issues building and paying for everything themselves because they would make a nice profit from those deals.
Excellent point, PHOF-worthy by my reckoning!
@Texas-Hawk-10 Just so I'm 100% sure - you're not a huge fan of Bud Adams?
@nuleafjhawk said in So, Kansas Reinstated the Border War (for the Chiefs):
@Texas-Hawk-10 Just so I'm 100% sure - you're not a huge fan of Bud Adams?
The man pulled the same shit that John Fisher pulled in Oakland with the A's. Adams devalued the franchise by gutting a Super Bowl contender and negotiated in bad faith with Houston for a new stadium a few years after Houston taxpayers spent a lot of money to renovate the Astrodome (that was finally paid off in 2014, 15 years after the Astrodome quit hosting pro sports). The negotiations were so bad that the city of Houston never even put it to a vote, that's how bad the deal Adams was pushing was for Houston because he already had the Nashville deal worked out.
@bskeet said in So, Kansas Reinstated the Border War (for the Chiefs):
@dylans said in So, Kansas Reinstated the Border War (for the Chiefs):
Data coming from universities is often flawed by methodology in my many of my experiences, flawed by work ethic in others, and further flawed by the researchers biases
Wow. Please don't tell me you favor data generated by corporations and associations over academic institutions.
Bias is possible with any study, any institution. But if the source is corporations and associations, which have potential conflict of interest, you just have to be more skeptical.
... I have never heard that there is a difference in research rigor from private vs public sources. If that's true, it would be interesting.
In this specific application, the public studies are far superior for a couple reasons. First, the private studies are all bought and paid for. They don't publish their data or methods (or actually any of the study except for topline findings). Here's an example â. If you follow the link to the consultant's site, they aren't exactly shy about it, "ESI helps you answer the big questions and make your case through insights, ideas, and thoughtful analysis. We apply our expertise in economic development, real estate, transportation, and public policy to improve the urban environments where we work and live."
Where what we do has to go through review from independent, external experts who, in all but very specific cases, can examine our data and methods, provide substantive critiques, and then we revise if we made a mistake or didn't explain something correctly or whatever. Even though I'm in the private sector now I still do some peer review when it makes sense.
@Texas-Hawk-10 Stan Kroenke did the same thing with the Rams. He and the NFL screwed St Louis over and then had to pay a lot of money to the city for the shady dealings. I only watch the Super Bowl now since they left. I am still bitter about what happened.
@FarmerJayhawk spot on, the private studies will favor who the money says to. Same as internal investigations, âWe investigated ourselves and found we did very little or nothing wrong!â Shocking development.
St Louis came out OK, but the local fans who had spent millions of dollars on tickets, PSLâs, and merchandise were given a huge FU.
@Texas-Hawk-10 I lived in Houston from the late 70's to the late 80's. I was a big fan of the Oilers (and Astros) and attended many games in the Astrodome. I'd heard the name Bud Adams, but didn't know about these shenanigans.
@FarmerJayhawk you wild Spinmeister!
The lawsuit was originally filed by the city of St. Louis, St. Louis County and the Regional Convention and Sports Complex Authority all the way back in 2017. The lawsuit was filed because the plaintiffs felt that the Rams "violated the obligations and standards governing team relocations" by moving the franchise. Basically, the city of St. Louis and the other plaintiffs felt that the Rams broke the NFL's relocation guidelines when they left town and that the other 31 teams were at fault because they voted to let the Rams move.
St. Louis interests sued the league and Rams owner Stan Kroenke after NFL owners approved the team's move to Los Angeles in 2016. They sought more than $1 billion in damages.
A $790 million settlement was reached in November 2021. About $275 million went to attorney fees. That left $512 million, and interest brought the total to around $519 million.
The suit claimed the NFL violated its own relocation guidelines, and that the league and the Rams enriched themselves at the expense of the community they abandoned.
@dylans itâs right there, not exactly groundbreaking journalism, â The settlement, reached in mediation, ends a 4½-year-old lawsuit filed in the wake of the Rams' departure. Kroenke and the NFL had failed in bids to have the lawsuit dismissed or at least moved out of St. Louis, and courts were sympathetic to the St. Louis side's effort to disclose financial information of team owners -- rulings that hastened the push for a settlement.â https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32706415/source-nfl-settles-st-louis-lawsuit-rams-relocation-los-angeles-790m â
@dylans @FarmerJayhawk they really did screw over the community and state in that situation. Iâm not sure Hunt would move the team anywhere besides Dallas-Fort Worth area where is from but not sure it would work with the cowboys.
@kjayhawks any threat to relocate is pure posturing to get more public subsidy. Just like Jacksonville was never going to London or the Titans were never leaving Nashville or the Bills were never leaving Buffalo but they all got nice (for ownership) deals from their cities
@FarmerJayhawk Raiders are serial relocators, as are the A's. How'd they both have controversies with Oakland, and designs on new stadia in Las Vegas in common?
@FarmerJayhawk The case and settlement had nothing to do with financial disclosures. That was just the whip that got the job hastened. Like your spin job though.
They quote @FarmerJayhawk in this article! đ just kidding there is a mention of the economic impact of a building a new stadium in a new city. Unfortunately itâs a blanket statement that doesnât account for the stadium being built in the same economic area of impact that it currently exists in, but shifts the income to different coffers.
@mayjay itâll be interesting to see if the Aâs move actually happens. As far as I can tell pretty much everyone but the Aâs owner wants them to stay in Oakland. Theyâre supposed to start there in 2028 but donât even have land yet. The whole thing is quite the cluster.
@FarmerJayhawk Spin spin spin. Itâs why the numbers are completely untrustworthy. Human bias is incredibly blinding.
This is the deception. https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/st-louis-lawsuit-exhibits-expose-that-rams-and-nfl-lied-about-planned-l-a-move â
This is the reason behind the lawsuit.
https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/10/13/business-of-football-understanding-st-lous-rams-lawsuit â
The city of St. Louisâalong with St. Louis County, and the St. Louis Regional Convention and Sports Complex Authority (I will refer to all of them here as âSt. Louisâ)âsued NFL owners in 2017 with a kitchen sink full of legal claims: breach of contract, fraud, illegal enrichment and tortious interference, all resulting in substantial financial losses for the city of St. Louis. The suit has been in the City of St. Louis Circuit Court (22nd judicial circuit).
The basis of the suit, from my reading, is that the NFL owners breached an enforceable contract among themselves in the relocation of the Rams to L.A., a breach to which St. Louis is a third-party beneficiary, by not complying with their own relocation policy guidelines (the âPolicyâ). The through line of the plaintiffâs argument is that despite the fact that St. Louis met the contractual guidelines and protocols of the Policy, the owners disregarded the Policy when it stood in their way of their desired result: getting the Rams to LA.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/45592658/chiefs-seek-extension-kansas-stadium-financing â
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Also https://ballparkexperience.athletics.com/ â
Looks nice for a park thatâs not happening.
@dylans They also rented construction equipment to be in the background of a fake groundbreaking photo at the Tropicana site. Lots of theater going on in their PR about a stadium for which financing doesn't exist but which they claim will be magically done in 3 years. This site fell for it hook, line, and sinker: https://ballparkdigest.com/2025/06/24/athletics-mark-new-las-vegas-ballpark-construction-launch-with-groundbreaking/ â
Maybe A's games will be created by AI also?
I've wondered what the cause of poor attendance at A's games is. They had a great run with the Bash Brothers and attendance peaked all time high for them. The 3 in a row dynasty of Reggie, Vida, Rollie and Catfish was barely supported by fans. Incredibly low under a million those years. Most years in their history well under 2 million and many under a million fans.
The link between a very bad stadium for viewing as fans must be something. I think it influences White Sox attendance as much as their bad teams has. Colorado is on record losses pace and averaging almost 30,000 fans this year. Nice park with nice views I think from some seats and fans attend. Oakland has a bad park, and a location that just screams 'go do something else today' by virtue of the myriad #'s of outdoors opportunities in the Bay area. Playing 2nd fiddle to the Giants, is interesting because SF fans have myriad options of other things to do, except they have a great, like maybe the best stadium in all of baseball so they attend games.
I feel sorry for the Oakland fan to have their minds played with like this for so many years now. I can relate because there's been rumors for decades here that the Sox are going to move. If they left town, I'd cease being a baseball fan. Always been my #1 sport and since adulthood they've been the team I follow, and there's really no team on the side for me.
As a guy who lives in the Bay Area, and has been to countless Aâs gamesâŚ
Fans absolutely detest ownership, with a passion. Dude is so cheap. Cheap isnât even the word. So, they protest by not attending. I mean, they hate John Fisher so much they wear âSellâ T-shirts en masse. Their payroll is consistently near the bottom of the league.
They hold parking lot protests screaming for Fisher to sell.
They grow good players, then sell good players before they have to pay them. Sooo many fan favorites have been sent packing.
Plus their stadium is a giant, urine stained pit in bad area of Oakland, which is a giant, urine stained violent crime waiting to happen. Well, their old stadium. Iâm sure youâre aware they now play in Sacramento, in a minor league stadium.
@rockchalkjayhawk A bit less to the extreme but that explains the Sox situation. Not sure how long you've dealt with your owner but since 1980 when he bought the team from beloved Sox owner Bill Veeck, tore down our great old stadium for the last of the 70's/80's mallparks, let Hawk Harrelson fire Tony Larussa, let the labor strike of 1994 happen despite the Sox having their best chance to win a world series slip by, oh and trading away key pieces in 97 of a team that was 3 games out of first at the beginning of August saying that team couldn't win it all anyways. So I can relate for sure.
Hmmm, is Tony LaRussa the common denominator? :)
@rockchalkjayhawk Well he didn't ruin the Sox in the early 80's when he managed. And then the way he came back to bite us as Reinsdorf wanted to make up for his mistake in 86 and hired him out of the nursing home in 21 when he was clearly past his time.
Poor Tony LaRussa. He's had some great runs with multiple teams for sure. He's beloved in the Bay Area for his success (mostly) with the A's, and for his animal foundation as well. Maybe a string of bad luck being hired by ding-a-ling owners.
Tony LaRussa has the 2nd most all time wins of any manager with a .536 win percentage (not bad). He also won the big one twice with the Cardinals. Did fine with a solid franchise.