🏀 KuBuckets Archive

KU has triumphed over a very tough set of road opponents early.

But now KU faces another kind of challenge.

It is the dreaded Wednesday, Saturday, Monday set of games culminating against a good opponent you have to beat to get a split that will have played a Monday, Saturday, Monday set of games.

Iowa State has an unfair advantage because the accrued fatigue factor is going to be much greater on KU than ISU.

In an identical schedule situation, KU would almost certainly beat ISU. But its not.

So: KU is really playing the schedule the next three games, not the opponents.

ISU wouldn't have to win in Lawrence, because it won in Ames, and and so all ISU would be needing to do was try to steal a win in AFH. But these are not normal circumstances, because ISU dug a little hole for itself by losing to TTech.

So: ISU has a lot of pressure on to win in AFH just to get back into the race.

Alas, KU is going to come into that ISU game on Monday night in AFH having played TCU in Fort Worth, Wednesday, a in-state rivalry game with KSU at AFH at 1pm Saturday.

There are a lot things suck about that scheduling and they all have to do with KU being a young team and ISU being more experienced.

First, there is the timing within the season. KU is a young team and young teams are already finding this time of the season beyond their high school envelopes.

Second, there is the fact that young teams have less experience at pacing themselves for these clumpy scheduled stretches.

Third, there is the fact that young teams are not as used to having a bunch of game plans stacked on them early on to get them ready for three games in short succession.

Fourth, KU really needs to win the ISU game to because its a home game against a team it lost to on the road, and, as I said, ISU is going to be highly motivated to win it to get back into the race.

Fifth, playing a must win game, like ISU, on the heels of a rivalry game, is a very tall order for a young team.

So, how is Self likely to manage this three game set?

All three are must win games. TCU is one of the road wins you figure you have to win. KSU is a home game against a rival breathing down your throat in second place, so you have to have it. ISU is a team you lots to on the road so you have to have it at home.

You sure cannot amp three straight games Wednesday, Saturday, Monday.

You are coming off a peak performance versus Texas, so you have to expect a psychological let down with a young team. That means it is going to come on the road against a bottom tier team in TCU, which is good and bad. Its good because of the three, TCU should be the best team to have to win one in the bottom third of your performance distribution. It is bad, because its on the road and Trent Green likes to rough teams up.

Self has almost no choice but to send them out flat, and substitute like hell, to try to save legs the entire game, even if it means getting upset. If TCU were to upset us, then we could correct the loss on the back nine.

The big question then is who to amp for: KSU, or ISU?

Its scary, but I think you've got to amp for KSU, even if it means getting swept by ISU on Monday night.

Why?

The worst case scenario is losing to KSU on Saturday, then ISU on Monday.

You know ISU is going to leave it all on the floor Monday night to try to get back in the running regardless.

KSU is likely going to leave it all on the floor Saturday to try to steal one on the road from the league leader.

What you are hoping is that Texas bounces back from its defeat to KU and destroys ISU in Ames tomorrow night. This means ISU is on the ropes for the rest of the conference chase.

So you amp for KSU to nail down a home win against your conference rival and closest team on your heels, because ISU has lost to Texas.

Then you try to grind out a win against ISU on your home floor, even though your legs are not going to favor you.

Thus you have assured a 2-1 record and possibly with some luck a grinder and 3-0 versus ISU.

At that point, you have a week off before going to Gallagher-Iba for an OSU game you amp for because you follow with a Tuesday game against TTech you ought to win.

If KU were to win out against TCU, KSU, and ISU, then pick up another pair against OSU and TTech, KU would be very, very, VERY tough to beat for the title.

But given how young KU is, its very likely to come up with an L against ISU, a team it would kick under almost any other cirucumstance.

@jaybate-1.0 Trent green?

@jaybate-1.0 we got this, we will get them amped. It won't take much at AFH and we have revenge from ksu last year at their house-Mari on bench, and I'm pretty sure we aren't going to have the same results w/ISU!! Jethro will back me!

@Crimsonorblue22 Me too!

@jaybate-1.0 Now, jb, don't be a'backin' up on your recent prediction, even before the Austin trip, that our Jayhawks are destined to win out! HA! Surely, that assessment was posted tongue-in-cheek. That said, here's my take on the upcoming 6-day/3-game schedule.
We win at TCU because of talent mismatch, and because of two giant warnings: the huge upset down there a couple of years ago and TCU taking WVU to overtime Saturday. Self can squeeze by w/o the big amp Wed. night. The BIG AMP comes Saturday vs. Purple Invaders at AFH. Self himself is worth a couple of points, the field house is worth a couple, and the AMP seals the advantage. Weber crawls home to Manhattan dragging drooping dobber. Greatest threat is the quick turnabout game Monday night vs. ISU. Jayhawks dig deep into cache of PRIDE to pull out that victory. 10:45 p.m. Monday night, KU 8-1 in the league. Your earlier prognostication right on target! Ammo exhausted, but guns and manpower intact.

@jaybate-1.0
Don't forget about OUR motivation factors. Two of which are: We will be pumped up and eager to return the favor against ISU. 2nd, Cliff will be especially turnt up. This is the team that Self sat his butt on the bench to prove a point. This is the game where Coach took a loss rather than give one of our best players more mins which probably would have helped us win. So, we have reasons to be jacked as well. Now, it's only a matter if we play that way.

I never worry about home games for our team. Road games I worry. They can have their Hilton Magic, and I don't know how it compares to AFH 'magic', but I'd guess our magic is better than their magic, largely because we're almost always a better team.

I don't know what goes into major college athletics, but I don't get the 'quick turnaround' idea either. Saturday afternoon to Monday night is 48 hours plus to be ready for the next game.

Fatigue? My daughter will play three soccer matches this week. T,Th,Fr They are 80 minutes long. She will be on the field the entire time of all three matches. She gets pushed, elbowed, kicked, tripped and runs at the very least 2 miles in the process. Saying it's a quick turnaround sounds like excuse making.

This team has lots of experience with the Saturday-Monday thing. That's part of what you get by being very good. I say we're ready for both Saturday and Monday. But as two years ago proves, Wednesday, although it defies logic, is the game that we might be a little bit on edge about.

I don't think its a step for a stepper. We're 1,200 lbs of screaming steel, and sex appeal. We have guards...tough, hard nosed lads that suck the life out of other teams. We have the best 3 point shooter this side of Ron Kellog ( NOBODY ever shot a prettier shot ),
and a thunderous monster down low who can't wait to tear the rim off with a thunderous dunk...did I mention Perry the great...how about the guy with 8 foot arms with the smooth lefty shot? What about a man named Wayne, who will put it all together at some point, and will be a hero ...

Mere mortals would pause at running the gauntlet of TCU, the Grapes, and the Clones, but we're going 3-0 ... because we're that good...

Doesn't everybody give us their "amped up, this is our superbowl, this is our big chance, our only full house, leave it all on the floor" game?

And, barring injuries, at 20 years old and in peak physical condition, I'm with wissoxfan83, shouldn't they be able to pony up the energy and ignore the bruises to play 30 minutes (or less) of game they love and have been playing since they were kids?

@KUSTEVE I thought Wayne had a great game against Texas. His three's were as pretty as everyone else.

Why would KU be "flat", given all the youth and eager beavers on this particular roster? And we have rotation depth this year, which only gets deeper if we open up the score in the 2nd half of ANY game...

@jaybate-1.0 I believe it was Hadrian who said, when asked how he was going to build (or rebuild) Rome. "Brick by brick, my friend," One game at a time is all you can play. The first order of business is to root like mad for the Longhorns tonight, but either way, ONE of those two teams will pick up another loss. I never coached (except academic teams) but I taught high-schoolers. You bring your best game as a teacher, see that they have all the skills, and do all you can to motivate, Deep down, it is up to them. A week from tomorrow, we should know a lot more.

@lincase great pts!

@REHawk

Alright, coach, you're right about me getting a little weak in the knees about Monday night of the 3 in 6. :-)

Hell, yeah, we get all three.

AND WE WIN OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gauntlet down!

@ZIG

The only real worry I have is that we are an outside shooting team playing an outside shooting team on Monday night.

Our legs are going to get tired before theirs, because of our scheduled 3 in 6 and the BTWs (balls to walls) effort that will be required Saturday vs. Interim Head Coach Weber's only big game of the season, since they won't make the Madness. :-)

But, you are right, we have pluses too.

But when the legs go, so does the trey balling.

And games with ISU sooner or later get reduced to who shoots the most and best percentage of trey balls.

That's why I ran a warning flag up the mast.

Now, it wasn't a white flag! :-)

It was just a damned warning flag.

@wissoxfan83

See post above to Zig about the perils of trey balling after 3-6 and a BTW effort against Hair Helmet Weber.

I have been shamed into defending my winning out prediction by @REHawk!

In fairness to me, I did say we would win out, or lose 1 more after OU.

And the team went to Texas and did me right.

And when I say the team might lose one more it would be against ISU on a Monday after 3 in 6 and KSU on Saturday.

After that it would be a win out!!!!!

Ah, it feels good to be outside the box!

Again!

@KUSTEVE said:

We're 1,200 lbs of screaming steel, and sex appeal.

When you put it that way, well, I have to back up my position to Coach.

WE WIN OUT!!!!!

@ralster

Good to see you back, but you don't seem your usual expansive self.

What gives?

Where were you?

Did you join @VailHawk undercover doing covert basketball opps for the BIA in Austin to soften up the Longhorns for the KU games?

This extended absence during the start of a conference season is most unlike you.

Health? Business? or a Woman? :-)

@wrwlumpy Wayne played well against Texas. With continued growth with the new shot, he'll be over 40% in no time. I feel like at some point in the season, he will win a huge game for us with his shot.

The challenge of this type of clustered schedule is that you may overlook an opponent.

KU is going to get TCU's best shot. Why? Well, TCU needs an elite win to push them closer to the right side of the bubble. They haven't done much in conference, and their non-con schedule was soft. A home win at KU is a nice feather in your cap come Selection Sunday. We will get their best effort.

K-State will give KU its best. K-State will not make the tournament unless they do one of two things (maybe need to do both). They either need to win the conference or they need to have 4 wins against the KU, ISU, UT trio. They already have an ISU loss. Even if they hold serve at home, that still means either winning in Austin or Lawrence. We will get their best shot.

Iowa State will give KU its best shot because ISU can't win the conference without a KU sweep thanks to that performance at Tech.

That's 3 games in six days where the opponent will be playing with their season goals hanging in the balance. That's a tough row to hoe.

@justanotherfan [

@lincase

First, we agree that the first order of business is to help Texas slaughter ISU tonight. We have already done what we can do by beating Texas, and thus instilling in them the desire to restore their dignities with a vengeance. This gamblers and line setters tend to expect to occur--a good team tends to rebound after a pasting.

Second, we agree that you have to play them one game at a time, but I do believe you will see Self use as long of a bench as he possibly can against TCU, even if it means a close game, that might not otherwise occur, in order to make sure he will have strong legs vs. KSU. Note: I know my take that Self modulates level of performance to fit the intensity level required to beat different opponents in short time spans is questioned by many. All I can say is that I read the games of the past seasons as fitting my hypothesis. And I am open to other hypotheses that fit better. But so far no one has produced one that fits better.

Third, we agree that you bring your best as a teacher, and let the students do the best they can with it, but...I argue your best as a teacher might involve tuning your students up incrementally for the final debate, by keeping them from using some of they best rhetorical devices, and losing their edge in surprise in future debates and in so doing, keeping things a bit edgier and thereby keeping them from getting overconfident for the big debate.

Finally, about Hadrian...

He was a wall builder.

Walls have their places tactics, and do have to be erected one stone at a time. Walls are very useful at keeping folks in.

But if you want to keep folks out...they are, even when well manned, lacking on their own, except when used as temporary means of delaying rate of attack, and channelling place of attack.

A great Russian general proved that while a single wall, or trench line, could never stop a concerted effort to overwhelm it, a constellation of walls, or trenches, could be designed to shape a battle field into channels of attack and kill zones around those channels that an enemy could become so depleted within that counter attack became not only feasible but almost certain of victory, because of: a.) depletion; and b.) the use of the remaining unconquered walls and trenches still behind the enemy's foremost advance, as means of ensnaring his retreat between the hammer of the counter attack and the anvil of the unconquered positions in the rear of the retreat.

So: walls are not necessarily so stupid as George Patton's famous epigram would have us believe in some ways.

''Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity."--George Patton

But the more mobility one can bring to bear on a walled fortification, or even a carefully contrived constellation of them, the more vulnerable and ineffectual they become.

We want to be high mobility wall flankers, and when expedient, wall breachers, tunnelers under, and flyers over.

Rock Chalk!

@justanotherfan

Because each team will give us its best shot in such a short time is why we might lose one and the last one seems the most risky because we will have to shoot treys well to beat a good trey shooting ISU team, and shooting treys well requires rested legs.

But this circumstance is also why you tailor your two controllable variables to fit each opponent. Our two controllable variables are bench length in front court and bench length on there perimeter. It is assumed that the amping against KSU cannot likely be repeated only two days later.

TCU is the first opponent, and the weakest opponent, so one as a coach has to decide if one's team is a capable of beating TCU with a sub part effort. If the answer is yes, you send the players out flat, you as much of your bench as possible, and give the team just enough wrinkles to eek out a win against a weak team that you could have beaten handily with a short bench and an amped effort.

KSU is the strongest team inside, the team with the stingiest defense, and team with the biggest emotional charge of the three because of the rivalry. KSU also is the team that could tie us by beating us. So: you amp for KSU and shorten your bench in the front court, and try if possible to lengthen your bench on the perimeter. Why? Because a short front court bench ensures you can handle KSU inside, and you gamble your back court depth can hang with KSU's short bench front court. By doing this, if the lead permits, you then maximize your likely hood of you perimeter trey ballers having enough legs to make treys against ISU's better rested trey ballers. But if the score forces you into short benching the perimeter to win against KSU, then you do it. And figure you can afford a loss to ISU if you win against KSU.

ISU has to be dealt with by playing an exceptional inside game in addition to taking and making a lot of treys. I really think the key to beating ISU is the big men running and the trey ballers making treys. It will be tough for the big men to run after the KSU effort, so the logical thing is to lengthen the front court bench vs. ISU and use all five KU bigs to run the floor both ways non stop. Doing this will minimize iSU's cherry picking and other easy transition baskets, while at the same time buy KU some easy baskets in transition. The running of the big men can occur whether our perimeter players fast or slow. Our best case is that our perimeter depth can hang with ISU and we run our perimeter players to try to run the legs off ISU's perimeter shooters. ISU only has two good perimeter trey ballers. KU has potentially four. If we can play all four of our perimeter players big minutes, then we should run with two and to wear down ISU's two good perimeter shooters, and walk and shoot treys with our other two perimeter trey ballers.

We can win this third game, even after a peak effort against ISU, if we run our bigs, and run two of our four perimeter shooters, and walk and shoot our other two in alternation.

Any other scenario favors ISU.

@jaybate-1.0 Hadrian did build the wall marking the northern border of the empire. I will concede your point about how well that worked. He also rebuilt the Parthenon and built the Temple of Venus and Roma. I still thing the "one brick at a time" is good advice.

I did try to get kids hyped up for certain competitions. Sometimes it worked. Often it was more about who they had just broken up with. Thank goodness I preceded most of the social media and texting and twittering insanity!

Game face on for tonight, and Wednesday, and Saturday, and next Monday . . . RCJH

@wrwlumpy

They were not only pretty but timely as well. His first 3 was when UT was ahead 11-2 and got KU started. He then hit 2 FTs to put KU ahead 38-37, and his second three stopped UT's momentum by tying the score at 44 and starting KU's run that put the game away; Texas never lead after that.

I think we will be ok simply because our 3 pt attack is so well diversified. Yes Greene is our poster boy, go 5-5, and stomp the will out of you long range bomber. But almost quietly Frank, Devonte, Kelly, Perry, and Wayne are taking their 2-5 attempts per game. If one or two of them manage to make the first couple they can catch fire and we can "ride the wave" as HEM likes to say. I don't see fatigue being that big of a factor with this team because the depth is becoming so good. There is so little drop off when we go to the bench that everyone has a chance to really rest in game. Self's trust in the 8 man rotation vs Texas proves that. Cliff, Brennan, and Devonte are ready for 20 minutes or more every game now. I expect we see a lot of Svi and Lucas vs. TCU but the solid 8 man back against the last two.

The 2008 team was really only 7 deep with the occasional appearance of an 8th man (Cole mainly). This team is deeper and actually a better shooting team all around. I think we have so many options chucking it from deep and we will be so emotionally charged to beat Iowa State that we win that one going away. Look for about 4-6 made threes v TCU (Self will limit shots from anyone who looks to catch fire), 8-11 vs. KSU (riding the wave of the hot hand) and a slight decrease 7-10 vs. ISU (a more balanced attach from all spots).

P.S. Those are total number of made threes not percentages! I wish though!

@jaybate-1.0 Uh, uh! Ah, ah! You are slipsliding again!!!!!! MAN UP! None of this "one loss" bullhockey!

@jaybate-1.0

"So: ISU has a lot of pressure on to win in AFH just to get back into the race."

Good luck with that!

I read the Coach Self bulletin in prep of ISU at AFH:

1. Get back on defense. No more run outs.

Well... there goes 21 of their points!

@ralster

"Why would KU be "flat","

The good aspect of this team is they are really a team.

But the bad part is they mostly come out playing the same (because they are a team and rely on synergies)... so if we get off to a cold start it is most of the team being cold.

Maybe that explains our lopsided losses. We win a bunch of tough games, but when we lose, we lose big!

@KUSTEVE When we lost to Temple, Seth Tweeted, "What the Hell was KU doing traveling to Philly to play Temple on a Monday after playing on a Saturday night before the Christmas Break." The turn around before the ISU game was evil with us doing the traveling. Even in the NCAA tournament, you at least get to play at the same neutral site and are able to sleep and play against a team that just went through what you did. Self himself said that the ISU scheduling went against the Big 12 bylaws.

@wrwlumpy

I don't give into that one often because they are kids and should be full of energy.

I remember being out in a small town as a kid and riding my bike 50 miles to eat pizza, then remembering I had to bike home! I did it, then had to help my grandpa on the farm the next morning at 5am.

These kids are tough!

@jaybate-1.0 Tough, tough schedule this next week, you are right about that. What I am hoping for is that Self will not need to amp them against ISU cuz its a revenge game and KU comes out ready to take the first punch, make them bleed and our home court advantage will spot us at least 5 in that game.

@jaybate-1.0 *multiple lines of defense to funnel the attacker into a desired location"...and since you mention "Russian general", I'm going to guess you are talking about EasternFront, WW2, Battle of Kursk, southern German pincer, which got bogged down in the prepared defenses by either Zhukov or Timoshenko??

I have to say I feel like this team has 1 or 2 more slip ups in conference play. At OSU always scares me as well as 2 games against Huggies WVU boys. I think 15-3 is solid and will do the trick. BXII Champs and a 1 or 2 seed. It will be tough to get a 1 seed with UK and Gonzaga unlikely to lose. Put UVA and Duke in there with Wisconsin and there isn't much room for KU at the top.

Like many of you, I assume, 2008 was my absolute favorite year of basketball. I loved that team and especially the result! So I am always comparing the current team to that one. Even if we don't win the title (still tough to figure out who will beat UK) I think this team is shaping up to be the most like 2008 we have had since then. We've got shooters, we've got defenders, Kelly has hands that remind you of Mario (maybe without the anticipation) and Frank reminds me more and more of Russ Rob every day. Jamari is a slightly smaller version of Darnell, Perry is our smooth 4 who can stretch it like Arthur. Greene and Graham combined have the skills of Collins with shooting, handles, and toughness. Cliff is a difference maker off the bench like Kaun. They are starting to really understand TEAM defense. The way they were able to deny the post against Texas was awesome (either that or Texas was just stupid! Haven't rewatched to see!). They play their best at the end of games. We don't have one star, but 8 players who could take over any game. I find Self said it best after the Texas game, "I think I could fall in love with this group!"

Regarding which foe to "amp up" the team for...why not all of them? Get on a roll on a higher level of existence, a merciless one. I say this because of this year's peculiar situation of a DEEP team of eager beavers. Very easy to tell a starved-for-mpg kid to go 'attack, all out'. It could be a Blitz...Jamari-style. Do unto others what the Clones did to us in Ames. What we did to OU the 1st half...

Now, we have platoons. Hit em with wave after wave of intensity, as a famous Russian general once did... :)

I'm kind old fashion in this regard. I look at one game at a time. So much can happen from today till next Monday. A loss here or a win there not only by KU but also by another Big 12 team can change all logic. What was supposed to be a tough game could be come a snoozer, and vice versa :)

No really like clock work after KU plays a game. I get on Espn look up their next game to see who they are playing, where, what time, and will it be televised. I guess I'm the fan that never looks ahead. Well unless I'm planing on attending a game. ;)

@DoubleDD

I agree. One game at a time is the answer; ISU took Tech for granted and lost. I paid for a lot of my beer in college shooting pool and getting opponents to concentrate on the next ball while missing the ball at hand.

@justanotherfan

"That's 3 games in six days where the opponent will be playing with their season goals hanging in the balance. That's a tough row to hoe."

Right on!

I think that explains our entire B12 season. Everyone has circled their dates with Kansas because we've been on top for a decade.

All of these schools know the fans will pack the house to see the KU game. A bad showing can't be swept under the rug of their fan bases and these teams know that if they don't come read then Kansas will truly embarrass them on their home court.

Our team surely has the toughest schedule in the country.... hands down!

First, we chose the toughest pre-conf schedule... then we go into the top or one of the top conferences with a decade win streak on the line. No one comes close to playing as many tough games as we have, especially when noting the target on our back for every single conference game!

Now will it help us in March? That remains to be seen.

@ralster

Yes, and it was Zhukov that innovated it.

@REHawk

Can't you hear them slapping virtually? :-)

I said they would either win out, or get one loss the rest of the way. That's a fact, coach.

But for you today, I reduced it to win out. :-)

No equivocating.

I even explained how he could get the third win on Monday night leaving the amp for Saturday and KSU: long bench inside--use all five bigs including Hunter--running the asses off the ISU bigs every trip end to end both directions, and long bench perimeter--running two of our four perimeter trey ballers==the ones playing whenever ISU's only two good trey ballers are, then bring in our other two trey ballers to walk it and micro-burst the trey balls on their rested legs. Game. Set. Match. :-)

Rock Chalk!

@drgnslayr

Only a 50 miles?

Shoot, I once rode a century through a mine field for practicing mine sweepers out at Fort Riley to get a Snickers and a milk at my aunt's house, then rode back through practice artillery gunning, and then had to dodge practice strafing runs by A-4 Skyhawks over from Forbes practicing on my ass to make it home for dinner, and then I had go over and help my Dad embalm Alf Landon. :-)

@lincase

PHOF!

Love to hear from those with experience in the trenches.

Hadrian had a pair.

And I can recall a teacher that had given me a remarkable opportunity one time being rather disappointed when I threw it away moping about a girl that dumped me.

Were it not for hearts, we would likely be nearly perfect, but I would not trade an hour of the passion of love for another year of life, even at this late date.

Viva the glory in the flower and the splendor in the grass.

@JayHawkFanToo

Ah a pool player. ;) Hell I don't know how many shots I missed trying to set myself up for the next one. lol

I'm sure HCBS does some things to set up our beloved Jayhawks for the next game, or some game in the future. Yet when it comes to the players and even it's fans it's one game at a time. That's why fans watch, players play, and HCBS makes millions coaching the game we love. :)

@jaybate-1.0 Sometimes there are said to be SPLINTERS in that grass.

@jaybate-1.0 "...help my dad embalm Alf Landon."????????????? You gotta be crappin' us!

@REHawk

Yep, I was telling a bit of a stretcher there coach and I'm going to add on it in a moment.

But first, honest, I'm with you on splendor AND splinters AND EVEN a Splendid Splinter.

But embalmin' Landon was nothin, Coach!

I used to have to ride a J.C. Higgins balloon tired bike 40 years into the future and try to figure out which Kansas summer game coaches were rumored to be helping Self and which ones were rumored to be channeling players away from him and why? It was one helluva a long ride and no one would even try to explain it to me, and so I would have to ride back 40 years and begin reading all kinds of muck raking books about college basketball that Bobby Knight appeared to have been some kind of a force behind the scenes regarding. And then try to extrapolate them forwards for their never having been a clean up. And if I were late either way, I would lose my supper!!!! :-)

@jaybate-1.0 did you ever read the Korleone story?

@Crimsonorblue22

Not yet, but I would still like to. What about it grabbed you so deeply?

Saw him play in Vegas and heard a lot about him. Thought he had a lot of potential.

@Crimsonorblue22

I saw him play once on a televised McDonalds AA game, and thought he would be very good, but I am not a very good judge of players based on what they do in that sort of game.

@Crimsonorblue22

Young to me exemplifies a basic misunderstanding about what it takes to make it in basketball.

Josh Selby also exemplifies it.

Players and fans think playing basketball is solely about how talented, skilled and competitive one is.

But basketball is a business. It has always been a business at the NBA level. Now it is a business at the college level, and at the summer game level.

Most fans say basketball is a business but they don't seem to really uderstand what that really means.

In the business world, every thing is about building relationships that get you access to opportunities to perform, to do what you do.

In business, being talented and skilled is kind of ante to the game.

One has to have enough talent and skill to make those in the business see some career benefit in relating with you--in associating with you.

In business, everything is a deal built upon an association, which is a constellation of relationships.

Basketball is just like any other business in this regard.

You have to be a talented and skilled player to make it into the basketball business.

But to stay their you have to be very skilled at building relationships and insightful enough to know that you need to work hard at building and maintaining those relationships.

Many young players and young coaches think that all you have to be is talented and skilled at either profession.

Young players especially think, well, if I can play with these pros in a work out, or at a camp, or what have you, that they are ready for the pros.

That is not enough.

A basketball player is a business man. He has to have a broad web of relationships to sustain his business. He has to build, or have, relationships with management, with coaches, with players, with media, and he has to have an effective business of his own that includes lawyers, agents, public relations, accountants, weight trainers, dieticians, investment advisors in securities, investment advisors in real estate, and so on. It is not enough for a player to go out and hire these types of professionals, he has to have the savvy to hire the right ones and to build strong, enduring relationships with them. If he doesn't they will exploit him and steal from him, or compromise his best interests. Playing basketball at a high level is very difficult and demanding, but being a good business man while doing it is even more difficult. Building all of these relationships and knowing when hire more, fire some, or stand pat takes alot of skill. And no one just does this for players unless they literally take over the player and run him, and invariably, unless the player is a once in a generation player, they use him up and move on.

I am not expert enough on what it takes to play in the NBA from a basketball standpoint to know how many of the guys fail, because they just can't play the game well enough. But I feel knowledgeable enough of business to say that probably most of the young basketball players that go to the NBA aren't very good business men and really have to work hard at learning how to be. One of the ways to learn how to do that is to hang around a D1 program for serveral years and pick the brains of the former players in the NBA that return in the summer time, and the coach, if he is as savvy as Self, and the alum lawyers and business men that hang around the basketball players, and getting an education, and and so on.

Just like a person can learn a lot about how to play basketball in 4-5 years at a D1 program, a player can also learn a lot about how to be a basketball business man around a D1 program.

Frankly, Wiggins could have used serveral years at KU to get better at basketball, but he didn't need to be at KU at all for basketball business, because his father had that all ironed out back in Ontario. He had long since schooled Andrew on how to be a basketball business man and build his business relationships and his father was acting as his partner. His father knew what he was doing every step of the way.

Joel Embiid's father clearly did not. That is not a knock on his father. How could he? He was a security officer in Cameroon where they don't even play ball. Joel's advisors got him part way. They were smart enough to matriculate him to USA and to summer league and a basketball factory, and then to KU. But once the injury hit, they apparently convinced Joel to take the money and run, before Joel had a full array of business relationships built. This is apparently why Joel is having trouble during his injury rehab season. Joel has not been able to build and maintain good relationships with those he needs to have good relationships. None of this is about his basketball. Its about his business relationships. It appeared to me that Self implied that he felt some what outmaneuvered by Joel and his advisors. Not smart business on Joel's part. Really good businessmen build such good relationships that even if they are screwing somone one the person getting screwed sees some advantage in not implying they have been screwed.

Good business men give good relationship.

Even the ones that can be jerks to so many are very savvy about knowing who they HAVE to have good relationships with.

Basketball players staying a year in college is arbitrary.

How long they should stay has less to do with how good they are as basketball players than it does with how good they are as basketball business men when they decide to go pro.

At least that's my opinion from the outside looking in.

@jaybate-1.0 I think the most important people in these kids lives are their parents-2 is better, but look at angel Morris. I'm hoping it's to soon to tell about Embiid, that could change for the better. Obviously he grew up in a world far different than my kids. I can't imagine going that long w/out family support. I also think our Jayhawks have a coach and staff that will advise them w/their best interests in mind!

@jaybate-1.0

The first time I stepped on an NBA court I became a businessman. - LeBron James

This is a daunting week but the good thing is we play 2 games in 3 days at Allen Fieldhouse.

I think if we can skate by Wednesday without being locked into a single possession game then we will be fine the rest of the way. It would be a major letdown to not play up to our level.

I can't see why we would be worried about Kansas St at home. We've beaten them by an average of 21 points in the last 5 trips they have made to Allen. This isn't a better team than any previous team that thought they could win here. If we play well, we will be resting our players in the 2nd half.

And our Monday opponent is still fresh in our minds having barely played them 2 weeks ago so I'm not worried about us being prepared. I am worried that our transition D could be as poor as it was in Ames because there won't be much time to emphasize how important getting back is. We have a deep bench and hopefully we will have rested up our players enough to turn it up for Monday.

@BeddieKU23 we also have a newly educated Cliff since ISU game. Hmmmm he caught on fast I'd say!

@BeddieKU23

I would not underestimate KSU, they have a knack for winning ta AFH and when KU is ranked high and they are not expected to compete; they are playing well with nothing to lose. I can see a 20+ win or a game that goes down to the wire...I am always leery of this type of games.

@JayHawkFanToo I wasn't scared of the purple kitties before the conference season has started and even though they haven't beaten any top tier teams I do share some of your worry when we play against them. My fear is that we may look past them at ISU because they are in my eyes a bigger rival right now and definitely a bigger thorn in our side.

@HawkInMizery

I respectfully disagree. I would call Oklahoma (on the road) and Baylor (both top 25 teams) and Oklahoma State (fringe top 25) top tier teams and they lost to ISU in Ames by just about the same margin KU did...wouldn't you agree?

My apologies, I forgot that they beat OU in OT. Baylor and OSU have both been up and down they almost lost to Baylor. I guess I was focusing more on their struggles with bottom feeders, they barely beat TCU and TTU. Thank you for bringing those to my attention, you are right they have beaten some quality teams I was thinking more along the lines of us, ISU, and WVU the more consistent teams in the league so far. Post like yours are why I like this site better than the old one, disagreement can take place without confrontation.

@HawkInMizery

No need to apologize. As we get older we forget more, but on the other hand...

Happiness is nothing more than good health and a bad memory. - Albert Schweitzer

The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time. - Friedrich Nietzsche

and last but not least...

A clear conscience is the sure sign of a bad memory. - Mark Twain

@JayHawkFanToo

False, their last win in Allen was 2006, and if you include the big 12 tourney we have utterly dominated them other than 2 road losses on their court. We show up at home, its a blowout

@JayHawkFanToo all great quotes, I would have to say I like the one by Nietzsche the best! Are you tuned into the KSU game right now?

@HawkInMizery

KSU lost and so did Baylor

• Kansas 5-1
• West Virginia 5-2
• Iowa State 5-2
• Kansas St 5-3
• Oklahoma St 4-4
• Baylor 3-4
• Texas 3-4
• Oklahoma 3-4
• TCU 1-5
• Texas Tech 1-6

OSU, Baylor,Texas and OU are probably 1 game away from being completely out of contention.

The losers of Texas-Baylor and OU-OSU are probably done title-wise. If KU beat KSU on Saturday, then I would say there is 90% chance that the conference winner will come from KU, ISU and WVU since ISU and WVU play Texas Tech and TCU at home and will likely win. The winner of the Monday night game between KU and ISU will be the favorite to win the conference even when only OSU and KSU have played 8 games (half the schedule) and the rest only 7 except for KU and TCU with only 6. If KU sweeps the next 3 games and moves to 8-1, I just don't see any team catching up.

@BeddieKU23

January 2006 - Unranked KSU snaps a 31 game losing streak to KU and comes back from 12 points down in Lawrence to beat the team that 2 years later won the NCAA.Title

January 2008 - #22 KSU beats #2 ranked KU to break a 24 year losing streak in Manhattan. KU would go on to win the NCAA Title.

February 2011 - Unranked KSU beats #1 ranked KU at Bramlage.

February 2014 - Unranked KSU beats #6 KU at Bramlage

This is what I meant by unranked KSU teams beating highly ranked KU teams (#2, #1, #6) when they were not expected. to win. They also won in Lawrence on several occasion in the not too distant past including in 1988 when KU went to win the NCAA Title , that year they were 2-1 against KU prior to the NCAA Tournament and the next season they also were 2-1. KSU has nothing to lose and every thing to gain against KU next Saturday and they can and will be dangerous. Just sayin'

@HawkInMizery

Trial lawyers like Gerry Spense have shown much memory is a palimpsest.--jaybate 1.0

History is in fact written by winners and losers, but it is the winners that mostly decide which versions are taught in schools and published widely.--jaybate 1.0

He who controls the past controls the future. And he who controls the present controls the past.--George Orwell

@JayHawkFanToo

Your calling 1988 not to recent past, that's 27 years ago. None of the players on this team were even thought of when that happened. I'm not trying to nick pick but we blow them out at home every time we have played them since 2007 season.

When we visit Bramlage, yes recently every game has been close regardless of their skill level. They have beaten us 3 times in 7 years and the others have been close battles. We would expect that on their court that a rival would play us to a tight game.

I just think some fans are overthinking Saturday's game for more than its likely to be. Our fans will be turned up especially since it will have been almost 2 weeks without a home game and its the purple cats in town. But first things first we need a win @ TCU tonight before we can worry about how much we win saturday by.

@JayHawkFanToo I watched both of those games last night. The KSU game was a slop fest from start to finish, all of the turnovers and fouls almost made it unwatchable. I think we should press KSU on Saturday they can easily be forced into some mistakes. I agree with your assessment that the losers of the OU-OSU and Texas-Baylor games are done title wise. If we keep playing with the same confidence we've been playing with I see no reason why we won't be sitting at 8-1 and thus putting some distance between us and the field. We have to take care of business tonight we cant afford to look past TCU, they are a decent squad with a good coach and should have knocked off WVU. That foul call was questionable but before that they let WVU get off and unguarded 3 that was drilled. They will either be very hungry after a loss like that or come out deflated because they let one get away, either way we need to be on our toes.

@jaybate-1.0 said:

"History is in fact written by winners and losers, but it is the winners that mostly decide which versions are taught in schools and published widely.--jaybate 1.0"

That is as true a statement as I've ever read. No one ever hears about the version of the losers. No one remembers who was second place they remember who was first. No one remembers who was behind us in the current streak of titles only that we have one 10 consecutive. This is the version that everyone knows. Very true words indeed. Well said!

@HawkInMizery

I thought the same thing about KSU in pressing them Saturday. They looked horrible against pressure, Marcus Foster was comical in-bounding the ball. I think I saw him throw to WVU 3-4 times with no chance of his teammate getting the ball. They also had a bunch of Shaq's out there bricking FT's. 15 missed bunnies will do every-time in a loss. Gives us a clue what we will see in a few weeks with West Virginia. They force turnovers and Staten is the key to everything they do on offense. Those 2 perfect storms win them games and we will have to negate both to win either matchup down the road.

@jaybate-1.0

Basketball is definitely a business, but that is why it is important for those in the business to have strong people around them, especially when they are young.

Wiggins was able to move to the pro game because his dad was a pro and his mom was an athlete, too. That smoothed the transition for Wiggins big time. That's similar in a lot of ways to how Kobe Bryant grew. His dad was a pro, so Kobe didn't need the time in college to learn things like good practice habits, how to take care of himself, etc. He grew up watching that.

For a lot of players, though, they don't grow up watching that, but they are also too skilled for it to matter before they become a pro. That's where the talent and business overlap. At the collegiate level, talent matters more than business, because there are some players that have so much talent, they can't really develop at the college level because there isn't enough resistance to cause real growth. Kelly Oubre needed that resistance to grow, but there is almost no way he's at KU more than a couple of years because the game will get too easy for him at the college level if he stays beyond that.

@BeddieKU23 those FT's they were missing weren't even close! Gibson was leaving his al short like they barely reached the front of the rim. They had no legs in the second half. We can do the same thing tot hem, we have the depth and the horses to do it. Devonte and Kelly will wreak some havoc against them, they both have long arms to intercept passes in addition to the ones that Marcus Foster will be gifting us :) And you are right about WVU, if Devonte and Frank handle the press as well as they did against Texas and we can (pardon my French) stay in Staten's ass, we will shut them down.

@justanotherfan

I am not sure if you mean to oversimplify, or if you are just using shorthand because you are familiar with business, but for those not familiar with business probably you are, regardless. It was NOT enough for Wiggins father to have played in the NBA, or his mother to have been an athlete. What was crucial was that one, or both of them, understood the business of basketball.

I have never read well documented percentages, but I suspect a significant percentage of NBA professionals, even in this high paid era, wind up getting fleeced out of their monies, and having short careers, significantly due to their lack of training in how to build a basketball business.

Someone above posted a quote above by Lebron indicating that he recognized the day he joined the NBA he was in business. That signals insight on his part. But insight is not necessarily enough. One has to commit to the mastery of technique of business to capitalize on that insight.

Just as a few combine great natural ability in basketball with a commitment to mastering the technique of the game, some few are also born with great natural ability for business, but they too must commit to mastery of business technique,

Great business men build enduring relationships that are productive and let go of those that are destructive.

Wiggins father having been in the NBA could have meant that he was another chump with no business sense that got exploited by the business of basketball.

But so far, it appears more likely that Mr. Wiggins, and/or his wife, committed to the mastery of the basketball business once they understood their son's extraordinary abilities and Andrew has benefitted substantially so far. But eventually, the business is going to be Andrew's, and I believe behind his polite public disposition is a young man learning the business as fast as he can.

Regarding your comment that many players, if not most, do not grow up around such parents as Andrew did: that is essentially the point of my post; that because they do not, these young men need to be taught/mentored by coaches, returning players, and trustworthy alums that the reason to stay on at KU as long as maybe required is to learn what relationships need building, and how to build them, to be ready to be a business.

I am not picking on basketball in particulary here. It is a phenomenon of most professional fields that require a high degree of ability and commitment to mastery of technique that our university programs do not prepare them much, if at all, for the business of their professions.

The greatest irony of all, in fact, is that business schools, especially graduate business schools where a high technical education usually occurs, are particularly bad at preparing their students for the "business of business."

Regarding Kelly Oubre, he was just injured early and when he got well he got on a little hot streak from three that obscured his deficiencies until the other coaches saw that he could not reliable hit FTs, or the trey, and now we are seeing what his shortcomings are. Of course he needs to stay another year, or two, to become a proficient player, but here again, basketball proficiency is actually probably easier to develop in the pros than basketball business proficiency is.

The worst case scenario for any D1 player going pro early is being deficient both in his game and in his basketball business abilities. It ear marks him for a sucker to be exploited. If one lacks the insight to know one's game is incomplete, and the insight to have built a basketball business apparatus in preparation for going pro, the sharpies will figure that one lacks the insight for knowing the difference between hustlers and serious professionals he will need for his basketball business.

@BeddieKU23

There were several other times in between 1988 and now. I just mentioned the recent time when they were not supposed to beat us (KU highly ranked, KSU not) and yet they did. BTW, KU is ranked #9 and KSU is not ranked...just sayin'...that's all.

@HawkInMizery

The KSU-WVU game was painful to watch....Huggy said he loved it!

@JayHawkFanToo

That's the case with most Big 12 teams we play. KU high ranked vs unranked conference foe. All our losses get overblown because we have dominated for so long its truly a David vs Goliath situation with all 9 teams. This year is obviously different with a lot of strong squads, the re-configured big 12 has trimmed the fat from struggling schools like we had in A&M, Colorado, Nebraska, and Mizzsucky even had its lean years. A loss to TCU is overblown still 2 years later and mostly from comments our own coach made.

@JayHawkFanToo He loves mudding it up! Maul ball as some call it, we better come ready to get dirty when we play them.

@HawkInMizery

Is it too late to have Mr. Ben Heeny and a couple of other football players to walk on?

@JayHawkFanToo hahahah! Unfortunately, I think it is too late, but boy would that be awesome to see Heeney out on the court manhandling people.