🏀 KuBuckets Archive

I have never started a thread before--only replied, but I was awake last night thinking about this. I watched Coach Self in the post game interviews, and my jaw was dropping. The man has the best three-point shooting team in the conference, and he is positively glum about it. He also has the team with the second worst two-point percentage in the conference, but he thinks we need to play inside-out because some day "just making shots" is going to let us down. It seems like simple math to me, but I always thought that the team who scored the most points won.

HEM and several others have developed this topic far batter than I , so I won't belabor the point, but I think that it is common sense to play to your strengths. No one is saying to stop getting easy twos, but they have been slow in coming this year. I believe Coach is forcing square pegs into round holes, and that is what is foolish. Also, the team seems to be happier when the game is more open.

Greene took THREE three-point shots last night. In the course of a game how many does Forte take? If Greene were playing for Coach K or for Hoiberg, how many would he take?

There is not much point in hitching a race horse to a plow. I have the greatest respect for those that pull plows, they made this country bloom. This year we have race horses: let them run. They might not go far enough, or they might win the Derby.

From FoxSports.com on this very subject:

Memo to Bill Self: With this KU roster, it ain't fool's gold when it works

Sean Keeler

FOX Sports Kansas City

FEB 11, 2015 1:06a ET

So is it winning if your coach absolutely despises how you're doing it?

"It's fool's gold," Kansas patriach Bill Self told reporters late Tuesday night after his No. 8 Jayhawks rolled Texas Tech in Lubbock, 73-51. "You can't bank on making 55 percent or 50 percent of your threes."

He's right.

You can bank on 52.2 percent.

Over its past three league road games -- all wins -- KU (20-4, 9-2 Big 12) is 24-for-46 from beyond the arc.

In that same span, the Jayhawks are 47-106 inside the arc ... a rate of 44.3 percent.

Fool's gold works.

Self doesn't want to hear it.

"No matter what, you can score inside off the bounce, you can score off the pass, you can score it in transition or whatever," the coach continued. "But you've got to be able to score close to the basket. That's the name of the game, in my opinion, is getting easy baskets, and eliminating easy baskets. And we're not doing near a good enough job of doing that inside."

Self has 10 more Big 12 titles than the rest of us, and the man is quickly closing in on No. 11. He prefers method to madness, and if you don't like it, well, he'll just point to the banners hanging at Allen Fieldhouse. (Similar to calling "scoreboard," in any disagreement with coaches, pointing at the banners generally ends the debate.)

But here's the thing: His team -- which drained 11 of 18 treys in Lubbock and is 21-for-38 in its past two tilts from beyond the arc -- has him in a philosophical pickle. The Jayhawk Way -- proven, tested, true -- is to work from paint to perimeter, inside to out. The run sets up the pass.

Which is fine except, if we could stretch the football analogy a bit, this KU team can't run the ball for squat.

Coming in to Tuesday, the Jayhawks ranked 259th nationally in 2-point shooting percentage (45.5), 137th in effective field-goal percentage (49.eight), 249th in 3-point attempts per game (16.eight) ... and 14th in 3-point percentage (40.2).

Self has seven players among the top nine in his rotation who are completely comfortable with the 3-point shot, and six of those seven went to Texas Tech having made more than 34 percent of their attempts from beyond the arc, and six with at least a dozen makes through the season's first 23 games.

These Jayhawks defend as a unit, scrap as a unit, better than each of Self's past two KU teams. He likes that. But they're also the worst finishing squad under the rim that he's had in ages, maybe the worst over a venerated 12 seasons in Lawrence, a red-headed stepchild that he loves but can't quite tame.

Imagine Whitey Herzog content to sit on his backside, just waiting to be bailed out by the 3-run homer. Or another football analogy, if you like: KU is the anti-Chiefs. Imagine handing Andy Reid a roster with Andrew Luck in his prime under center, four or five stud wideouts and a solid, but unspectacular, tailback. Even if Big Red wanted to run 33 times a game, if he did, he'd be out of work by Week 11.

That's the Jayhawks. Self is Vince Lombardi, and the idea of using slants and jailbreak screens and dinks and dunks to set up the run game gives him a 10-ton migraine.

He is what he is. And they are what they are.

Of the Jayhawks' first four field goals of the contest Tuesday, three were treys. 13-4, KU.

Of the Jayhawks' first four field goals in the second half, three were treys. 40-27, KU.

Fool's good works.

"Forty-one percent of our attempts (were) threes," Self continued. "Which is too many."

He's right, and in a perfect world, there's a balance, multiple dimensions, multiple threats from multiple corners of the floor.

But this isn't a perfect world. And this is far from a perfect roster. We already know the internal debate, the one eating at hole in his gut, the one question no coach wants to have to answer for in the postgame news conference. What happens when we come out and whiff on our first six from beyond the arc?

That's easy: Keep shooting.

@RockChalkinTexas And the people say, Amen. Didn't see that article. Thanks for posting.

Sometimes when I golf (which I do poorly) I hit a driver off of the tee. If my first couple of drives are in the fairway I don't put the driver away. Why would I? Stick with what is working until it isn't and then reassess. I have faith in Bill. Especially in March where 3's tend to be a huge part of who moves on and also where Bill has the chance to gameplan for each team. For now, please just keep letting these guys hit 3's. We are hitting more 3's than layups!!

@joeloveshawks We should have a kubuckets.com golf open and we all can hit drivers poorly!

@joeloveshawks we all know the saying, live by the 3, die by the 3. See ISU. Coach is not going to Not shoot the 3, he knows we have to develop Cliff, Perry etc, to get in the paint. If he didn't want to shoot the 3, BG wouldn't be playing much! He also said we have to play better D, in the paint, Cliff did a pretty bad job on that last night. What happened to oubre driving? We have to have both to be successful! They both set up each other. Take what the d gives you. Wayne needs to be driving and pitching or finishing. Jmo

@Crimsonorblue22 I totally agree. If we are a 1 dimensional team obviously we won't go as far as we want in March. I just hope that he keeps the green light on for Selden and Greene and Mason who can't miss at the moment. No doubt we will need Perry and Cliff and Jamari to step up the post game if we are going to make noise in March. I expect us to get better in the post and I expect KU to go deep into the tourney.

Is it possible that these are the types of threes being taken that he 'allows', in other words, he says shoot them, but only if......?

Threes can go dry at the wrong time of course. I try not to remember such things, but I believe it was the Virginia Commonwealth game that we kept jacking them up and nothing was dropping. Game, set, match, see you next fall. Of course VCU kept jacking them up and they were going in and wrote their names into the history books as the mid major FF team.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of three point shots lead to offensive rebounds as compared to 2 point shots. It seems that 3's that are missed lead to long rebounds which are easier to grab offensively than a well defended two point shot. This of course leads to more possessions.

I'll say this, let's hope they keep shooting them because it's what's working right now. Halfway through the second half last night I looked at the box score and we had made 8 threes and 6 twos. Only 6 made shots inside the arc halfway through the 2nd half, amazing! By games end as TT wore down that number came into balance, 15 2's and 11 3's, plus 10 FT's most of which came on shots in the lane.

!image.jpg ↗

When Coach says, "Fool's Gold" I think he means that we cannot win consistently ONLY by making threes. However, since the three point line was introduced, it is a higher percentage to shoot a three than a long two.

Yes, we should shoot more threes.

Yes, this is a very good shooting team w/ Green as the crowned prince of the three.

Yes, Coach is right that the three will not get it done all by itself but...

No, we are not the typical KU team (inside-out, dominate in the post, power ball...).

No, making threes is not a bad thing and shooting them is not a bad strategy.

No, Coach, threes point shooting is ALSO good playing. Making shots is part of the game!

So, if there is a poor shooting night, will blaming the coach still be allowed?

If the shots are open and we are gunning away, no worries, even if they do not go in.

If the shots are not falling on a given night, Coach want great D and hustle and rebounding and driving to get the foul to shoot FTs, and then we have a chance to win even on an off night.

Coach seems to think that when we shoot lots of threes, we "settle" and refuse to be tough and mix it up in the paint and play tough D, etc.

Three point shooting can be a percentage play of you have great shooters and take open shots. How many times has Coach said, "we made shots but did not play well?"

The point here is that is ALSO but not ONLY what "playing well" means...

Here is a question for the analysts: how does shooting more or less threes equate to the other aspects of the game (rebounds, turnovers, points in the paint, fouls, FG % allowed, etc?

Is a three point shooting team "softer" than a grind it our near the basket shooting team? Maybe on O but not on D? This i the fear I think Coach has in jacking up a boatload of threes / game: we would become gradually softer inside and the whole dynamic would change.

Is this true? Does anyone have stats or arguments to prove or disprove?:

I don't have the time today, but an analysis of National Champions in the three point era would be interesting. What was the best three point shooting team and what was their inside game like?

I will like to add that KU is ranked 8 nationally in 3 pt %. The best trey % among the current Top 25. And only one other AP Top 25 team, Utah is ranked in the Top 10 3 pt %. I think I like our gold, fool's or not. RCJH!

About two months ago, I believe after the Utah game, coach Self sat and watched his team play a beautiful perimeter game in the first half. Forgive me if my numbers aren't precise, but of our appx. 39 first half points, only 4 were scored near the basket. Something like that. Built a 20+ point lead. Then, in the second half, it was pound it inside. Our offense stagnated. And we almost lost the game.

After the game, Self pulled out the "fool's gold" comment, and directed it to Ellis. Saying his scoring away from the basket was "fool's gold."

I said at the time that Bill Self was delusional. That he was in need of psychotropic medication. That his team was not an inside-out team. That it was a perimeter team. He could wish for it to be otherwise, but that won't make it true.

Albert Einstein defined insanity as follows: "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Albert Einstein was smarter than Bill Self, for those that put Self in the genius category.

Of course, Bill Self -- the man himself -- admitted that this is not an inside-out team.

@Jesse-Newell said it best last night: "Self asks what happens if an NCAA tourney team takes away 3s. I would ask, 'What happens if a team takes away 2s (Stanford)'."

Exactly.

Self laments a fiction. That team can't rely upon threes because teams could take that away, or you could have a bad shooting night, as if that can't happen underneath.

But whether you believe we lost to Stanford because of their interior defense and contesting of shots (taking it away), or because we missed "bunnies" (bad shooting night), the fact is it can happen with interior shots as well.

It is a flat fiction. And Self says this stuff as if those that are listening are stupid. No one in the media challenges him. No one in the media asks the obvious questions.

Read Rustin Dodd's article this morning. Read what others write. Heck, listen to the game announcers last night.

Read what we wrote at kubuckets.com in the first month of the season -- glad to see the rest of the basketball world is seeing what we have seen for quite some time.

Self said, speaking of three pointers, "It's fool's gold. You can't bank on making 55% of your threes." If you rely on threes, "you end up going home sad."

But here's even what's worse - Bill Self's comments last night cheapen and devalue what the team has accomplished. Imagine if you're a player?

Imagine if you're a father. Your kid is great a soccer and is just so-so at basketball. But you hate soccer. And you tell your kid, "Hey, that's great, but try playing a real sport like basketball, and I'll be impressed." Horrible, right?

The lynch-pin that exposes the flaw in his thinking is thaw are just not capable of being the type of team that coach Self wants inside. That's all. On another team, in another year, it wouldn't be that way. Ellis scored at like 64 % at the rim last season. Embiid at 76%. That's what makes Self's ramblings absurd. We aren't going to magically start scoring at a high rate with our back to the basket. To think otherwise is delusional. If it's not delusional, show me any shred of evidence.

Instead of providing inspiration and positivity, he cheapens and devalues their efforts and team strengths. Imagine Brannen Greene. "Hey, buddy, you're fool's gold." Comes across that way to me.

But guess what, coach -- we don't believe you. Just because you say it, doesn't mean that it is true. Just because you aren't either smart enough, or secure enough (which could really be the underlying issue), to be flexible and adapt, doesn't mean that Jayhawk nation has to buy what you're selling.

Again, back to what @Jesse-Newell said -- how ironic is it that Self talks about the NCAA tourney and the risk of three pointers when our most recent early exit was because of missed two pointers?

The man only sees what he wants to see.

He point blank says that shooting 41% of your shots as threes is too much, and we should be around 30% like usual. Totally disregarding the strengths and weaknesses of his team.

That is delusional.

Sometimes it's actually gold. Shoot the trey. That's what this team is built to do.

Stubborn, yes. It is not good to change a super winning formula on a lark, or too quickly.

Delusional, no. Our coach is sane and smart and can and will adjust in the best way to give us a chance to win. Change is hard for everyone.

We have a GREAT Coach, but he is being challenged in ways that go to the core of his philosophy and this core coaching philosophy has made him so very, very successful over the years. And we are about to win our 11th straight conf title!.

I actually see movement and flexibility more than delusion and rigidity. But as players need time to evolve, coaches do too. New ground, new team, new ways of winning...

As "expert advisers and astute observers" of our beloved Jayhawks, we need to keep challenging on playing time, rotations and offensive game-planning.

The question is: does more long range shooting make us softer on both ends?

Self is correct that we're not going to make 50+% of our 3s every game (last few games notwithstanding). But, if we make only 33%, we still have a better effective FG % than we do from 2 pt range - arguably, even at the rim with this team. The key is that with 3 pt shots built into the offense, the opponent has to defend them, which in turn opens up the interior. We actually scored several times at the rim in the second half against TT because the floor was spread, the ball move quickly, and there were better angles for entry passes to the post.

@jayhawk-007 you get it!

Our coach believes in the hi/low and its worked for so many years no matter the talent he had on the team that having a deadly 3 point team is hard for him to accept. His bigs aren't skilled enough for the bang em inside approach all game so he's still thinking that at some point an overemphasis on 3's will come back to haunt us.

The key to a lot of our made 3's last night was dribble penetration, great passing and kickouts. Mason had 8 assists last night and I counted at least 3-4 were on made 3 balls. That shot Selden makes at the end of the half was a designed play that gave us a 5 point lead and momentum. I have a hard time believing a made 2 point basket would have had the same profound effect on the team going into the locker room. 3 point shots are an equalizer and Self just needs to embrace this team relying on the equalizer.

@HighEliteMajor Good points as always. But I don't think it is as bad as you say. I agree that we need to keep shooting 3's. 100% agree as I posted above and have posted all year. But Bill saying "fools gold" is not as much of a concern as what we see on the floor. He may say that shooting 55% from 3 is "fools gold" but he let it happen. He let the guys bomb 3's last night. He is obviously playing Greene far more minutes than he was early in the year and he is doing it because Greene is a great offensive player and predominantly a 3 point threat.

I honestly think we just have to let Self's comments go in one ear and out the other. Don't worry too much about it. The guy wants to win games far more than any of us do. He is not going to go into March and say "hey, I know we are shooting the ball 80% for 3 this half, but let's get Landen Lucas the ball inside during the 2nd half". It simply won't happen. Utah is a great example of him trying to get the ball inside too much but it was also an early season game. A game where we had a huge lead and he wanted to try and get the post game going for the greater good of the entire season.

Does Self screw up on coaching in March? Yes, sure. I would say he flat out got out coached last year against Stanford. But what other March losses can you say he was just out coached in? VCU was crazy. If the Morris twins don't talk incredible sh*t to the entire team before the game to get them fired up and if we shoot over 10% from 3 we probably win that game. Michigan is tough. I honestly don't blame Self. I blame EJ if there is anyone to blame. The punching in the balls is a karma thing in my opinion.

Obviously did not get out coached against UK in 2012. Simply a far better team than us. The UNI, Bradley, Bucknell games. Is that getting out coached? I think it is just far superior teams not showing up to play. Highly doubt Coach K was out coached last year in the first round. It just happened.

Sorry for the long reply but what I am trying to say is that I don't believe for one second that Coach Self is not going to let the 3's fly in March. He is a fabulous March coach. Almost 50% of the years at KU he has been to the Elite 8. Coach will say stupid things like "We could play Wayne at the 4...we could play Svi at the 1...shooting 3's is fools gold..." but I trust that he will allow this team to play to its strengths in the NCAA tournament and honestly I think we go deep into the tourney by shooting our way there.

@HighEliteMajor How many times did BOTH Miles Simon and Dave Flemming talk about Coach not liking the way the team was playing but that it was the way the team needed to play because that was a winning %? They repeatedly talked about this being a team that didn't have a rim protector and mentioned all the ones in the past. I must have heard that 3 times if not more. Miles even talked about Gundy and Jackson speaking of Brannen's shot being so pure and his game translating to the NBA when Dave Flemming admitted to have a "bromance" on Brannen because his shot was so pure.

I gotta think that Bill Self KNOWS that he is shooting some blanks in such post-game comments. Granted, the strengths and weaknesses of his current squad probably gives him ulcers. But I'm not buying his wolf tickets. Fools Gold? Ha! He's going to compete against a team like Kentucky with a game plan welded to "inside-out" offense? Ha! The Guy is almost sinister in his donning of masks.
This team is not going far with his customary inside-out insistence...esp. not if the likes of Wayne Selden continues to drive to shoot rather than drive to pass. Cliff ALexander can score effectively off rebounds, but how in whatever hell can he (or Perry) receive an inside pass and score from beneath the limbs of Kentucky's swaying trees? If this current Jayhawk squad advances past the Sweet 16 it will do so because Bill Self slithers into a determination to free his "other-worldly" troops to perform in the manner they do best. Down deep, HE KNOWS IT. Will be a rude comedy of errors if he does not ADJUST. Lull, then unleash! Surely, that is the scheming, conscious or unconscious, fermenting in Bill Self's coaching genius.

@REHawk Very well said. He's got to know that his post players can't score in the post and that it hasn't worked all year. This is a final four team if Self completely let's them loose from the perimeter.

@DCHawker said as follows: "Self is correct that we're not going to make 50+% of our 3s every game (last few games notwithstanding). But, if we make only 33%, we still have a better effective FG % than we do from 2 pt range - arguably, even at the rim with this team."

This is a great point. Of course we're not going to make 50% as a team from three. That's a straw man argument.Those happen here and there. But we are a 40%+ shooting team from three. That is fact.

Could we go 4/20 from three on a bad night? Absolutely. Three point shooting is not a panacea.

But with this team, the only real takeaway here is that the better roll of the dice offensively is to embrace the perimeter game. Don't put on the shackles, focusing on 30% of total shots being from three. Embrace it. And most of all, scheme to get those looks. Not just within the offense. Work to ensure your team gets those looks.

That can come from throwing it inside, to be sure. There was a beautiful sequence in the 2nd half where the ball went in to Lucas on the near block, he threw it to the opposite wing, and the ball rotated back to the near wing, and Greene (or maybe Selden -- sorry, notes not with me) hit a three. Perfect.

Here's the thing .. I generally agree with coach Self. It's back to the "this team" thing. I cannot imagine this team winning a national title unless it is shooting the three ball real well, and at a high rate. Can anyone? I'll take feed the post with 65% at the rim. If we're shooting 32% as a team from three, and don't have the best shooter in America, I'd be happy to complain about something else.

The delusional thing, guys, is solely about Self thinking this team can somehow magically start to score, back to the basket, and treating this team as he does prior teams on his three point attempt desires. And worse, expending precious energy beating our head against the wall trying to figure out how to score back to the basket. As I've said, the only way that happens is if Cliff makes a leap. That might help Perry, like Embiid helped Perry.

There will be nights when we can throw it inside and score. But so far, those games -- really, those moments -- have been few and far between.

And I admit, I get very irritated when coaches do what he did last night in post game comments. It's one thing to grump around, and never be satisfied. That happens all the time. It's another thing to clearly devalue and minimize the strengths of many of these players right after a very impressive performance.

It is also important to remember, just for context, that teams win national titles doing things all sorts of different ways. Self's way is one way. He won one his way. Self's way is not the only way, though.

Teams have won national titles shooting over 34% of their shots from three -- UConn last year, Florida in their back to back titles. Others, below 30 %. Some right at 30% (Louisville).

Jayhawk 007 - How do you see flexibility offensively? I'm curious. The only flexibility I've seen is the sporadic use of the four out/one out here and there. Haven't seen it in two games.

@HighEliteMajor "...haven't seen it in 2 games." THIS is where I see Self donning the mask, both in his game planning and in his public commentary. He dumped that 4-out offense at Stillwater and lost the gamble. At Lubbock, he figured he could get by without it. Then he blathers about Fools Gold. I think the guy hopes to slip up on everyone, like a big cat in the dark.

The sequence you talked about, started w/inside out, side to side. Is your inside out, different than Coach Self's? I don't think Self is talking just back to basket. Read taits article today. Selden said post game that they were an inside out team, he also said coach wants them to shoot when they're open. I don't think Self is belittling BG by saying fools gold, BG would be sitting if he didn't want him to shoot the 3. Most of the benching comes from his very poor D, he has to hold him accountable or BG will never improve, and we can all see, he needs to. Jmo

@REHawk I don't know where you get the evidence for this theory. You sound like this is some kind of ruse Bill is pulling to trick teams into not guarding the three in the tournament. Other coaches aren't that dumb. That's what scouting if for. They determine what you do well, and no matter what you say, and they work to stop you from what you do well.

A perfect example is the play for Brannen in the OK and OSU games. Set him on the low block and run him thru traffic across the lane. In the OK game, his guy got caught up in traffic and he was open for a 3. At the end of the OSU game they tried the same play. OSU obviously scouted and knew what was coming when Brannen set up on the low block. Forte stuck with him thru the lane and he never got open for a 3. Game over.

Opposing coaches aren't dumb and aren't going to be duped. And I don't think Bill is dumb enough to think they will be. He's never proved to be 'tricky' or 'sneaky' in his game plan--it's always been the same. Even in the Stanford game. He'd rather stick with his game plan with his second stringer than change his philosophy and run his offense thru his wing. Even with ANDREW WIGGINS as that wing. The only way Bill resembles a big cat is that he can't change his spots.

@HighEliteMajor Yeah, I hope Bill doesn't spend too much more time implying that his 3pt shooters have just been 'lucky' so far. He may need them to have the confidence to take a big shot at the end of a game in the tournament. Like EJ.

@KUinLA I don't think he meant lucky, just we need to develop the rest of our game. Do the rest of you think that?

@HighEliteMajor !Capture.PNG ↗

He's "Delusional"

"He cheapens and devalues what the team has accomplished."

"The man only see's what he wants to see."

Exactly what is wrong with the above statement by coach Self?

@wrwlumpy Uh, nothing. My comments were related to the "fool's gold" garbage. Or was that not clear? It has nothing to do with other areas of improvement, or with defense, or with rebounding, or ball-moving, or what have you. It is related Self thinking this team can somehow magically start to score, back to the basket.

I chose the word "delusional" very carefully as I'd used it a couple of months ago.

I ask you then, is there any evidence now, on February 10, with seven regular season games left, to suggest that this team can get effective, reliable scoring the back to the basket way that Self prefers?

If the answer is "no" -- which I assume that it is -- is it not delusional to believe that something is suddenly going to change in that regard?

I think what he was talking about with the term "Fools gold" is in this explanation of relying strictly on shots and ignoring the other facet's of the game. Back to the Basket terminology was not mentioned. His explanation is in the paragraph above. No "Green lights" have been taken away, all he wants is a more well rounded team. Texas Tech is not Kentucky and playing poorly, and rebounding and defending and moving the ball is something we have to work on. By the way, the assist in the second half to Perry who had sealed off his man was as pretty to me as Selden hitting a three.

@wrwlumpy it was nice! The lid came off for Ellis. Hopefully he gets past his 1000 pts this sat, w/the win of course!

@Crimsonorblue22 Suppose there will be lots of former Jayhawks there to see Perry get his 1000 points? I saw were BMac and Nick Collison were going to be there vs. Baylor.

@RockChalkinTexas I did hear, a rumor, that Embiid was coming "home" too. Who knows?

@HighEliteMajor from Taits article. No mention of back to basket!

But as Self pointed out in his postgame comments, there are plenty of ways to score outside of the post and inside of the three-point line. Transition buckets, 15-footers, drives to the basket that produce layups, dunks or free throws. All are viable options that well-rounded offensive teams routinely employ. This team has not consistently shown it understands that and until it does, it looks like it'll be a live-by-the-three-die-by-the-three scenario for the Jayhawks.

Picking up on @HighEliteMajor 's reply to my earlier comment and @wrwlumpy 's Self quote, while I, along with most everyone else, have been concerned with his seemingly stubborn insistence on trying to score in the post with guys that just aren't very good at it and slow embrace of a more outside-in approach, I actually think the comments cited by @wrwlumpy are right on the mark.

He is scared to death of being too reliant on 3 pt shots, because there will be days when they aren't falling (although with this group, we should be able to avoid performances like Arizona and Syracuse in years past). He doesn't want the guys getting too comfortable launching from beyond the arc and not looking to penetrate and dish or look for openings down low when the other team is overplaying the 3. We saw some success down low in the 2nd half - Perry had a good seal, as did Landon (alas, he couldn't finish).

What I really took away from his comments however was the classic Self view, with which I agree, that there will be days when you aren't making shots and can you still find a way to win. That means defending and rebounding - getting stops. This team hasn't yet demonstrated it can consistently get stops in crunch time. True of last year's team, as well. Check Kenpom's defensive efficiency ratings over the past 10 years. KU has consistently been in the top 10 in DER - just not that past two years. That's a function of youth as much as anything else, but also energy/desire/hustle.

The energy lapses are one thing (probably why he's given Mari so much rope), but the consistent failure to box out and give up offensive rebounds, or get beat off the dribble and then not have anyone slide quickly to provide help, is probably what galls him most.

He takes pride in winning the ugly games, which is what we've been able to do pretty darn effectively during the Self years. While I think he is coming around a bit in opening it up on the offensive side to play to our strengths there, he is probably correct that the chances of a deep tourney run are diminished if we can consistent stop the other team. If not, you are really counting on staying hot for 4 to 6 games, i.e., 40%+ every game from deep against defenses designed to stop that. Possible - sure? Likely?

He is allowing the offense to open up by allowing Greene on the court. Even the announcer mentioned that is was a good thing that Brannen could shoot, because apparently he has no taste for playing defense. He didn't yank Cliff after trying to kill 4th row fans twice in the first minute. Selden is allowed to only shoot outside since he can't get to the basket any more. He is a defense first guy and always will be. Doesn't anyone on this site agree that we can work on these things. Damn, we put Tyler in the game with a 25 point lead, can't coach have the right to keep coaching the things we aren't doing well. Self knows that our Bigs aren't Withey and Aldridge. He simply wants a semblance of balance.

@Crimsonorblue22

Spot on.

Any one that thinks that KU should also KU should just shoot 3 points is an even bigger fool than what they accuse Coach Self.

What would you say if Rafael Nadal announces that he is a base line player and will not come to the net and will stay back and volley the opponent?

How about if Floyd Mayweather announces he will only jab but will not fight inside?

Or the Chiefs announce they will no longer pass and will only run the ball?

Or Cain Velasques indicates that he will only box and not grapple?

We would all agree that they went insane; being one dimensional in sports is a recipe for failure...you have to have a complete game in order to be successful; it is no different for basketball.

You cannot have one dimensional game; even when you have a great long range shooting team, you still need to have the inside game to open the outside game.

Look what happened at OSU. KU was shooting great from the outside (7 of 9) in the first half and then OSU adjusted the defense and got on the grill of the outside shooters and they could no longer score like they did in the first half (3 of 11). Its is clear that Greene is the best 3-point shooter KU has had in a long time but he is also a spot shooter that cannot create his own shot and cannot shoot when closely guarded. Perry and Oubre also will take shots only when wide open.

I see posters indicating that KU should run more plays for the outside shooters...hello, it does, but you have to consider that it is not playing the Sisters of the Poor team and the other conference teams are also capable and well coached and will have a say in how the game develops.

What Coach Self is saying is that in order to have an effective outside game, KU needs to have a credible inside threat to open the outside game. If you have the capability to score inside, the opponent cannot just concentrate on the outside and by extent it opens up the outside game. Remember Greene's comments after the OSU game?

“When they started pressuring us, we started our offense farther out than we wanted to. It just threw off everything. When you are able to start the offense around the three-point line, you are in scoring position. We weren’t in scoring position with our offense. They got after us and some of us got rattled.”

Having an credible inside game forces the defense stay closer to the basket and abates the problem Greene mentioned.

Interesting how the announcer are quoted saying that KU should use the outside game more but they conveniently are not quoted when they said they understood what coach Self was doing and that KU needed to develop an inside game as well.

Last night, in the first half KU was getting good looks inside and outside but were just not converting (5 of 14- 2pt and 5 of 13-3 pt) and once they started converting inside in the second half, the outside game became more open and both the inside (10 of 15) and the outside (6 of 7) benefited.

When you get a big bonus at work do you spend it all at once? Many people do, but the more fiscally prudent people will set aside some for a rainy day, This is what Coach Self is basically doing. I am sure he remembers the VCU game in 2011 when a good 3-point shooting KU team went 2-21 from 3 and lost a game it should have won. Let's face it, KU's inside game right now is not good and needs to improve and become credible threat to open up the game for the outside shooters. Abandoning the inside game makes KU a one dimensional, predictable team that becomes easier to plan for. KU needs to improve its inside game to complement and open up the outside game and it will not improve unless it is used at game time. Interesting that most are calling for more playing time for Alexander, the ultimate inside player who does the bulk of his work within 5 feet of the basket; if you want a purely outside team, then Alexander is not the answer.

Coach Self makes a lot of money doing what he does and he does it better than just about anyone else. Always get a chuckle when I see a post that says that coach Self does not know what he is doing and he is doing it all wrong bu then...they would not change him for anyone else; to me it is a lame ass excuse to try to hide a bias and dislike. If you think Coach Self does not know what he is doing or he is doing it all wrong...why, do pray tell why would you want to keep him? Wouldn't it be better to get a coach that "knows" what he is doing and does the right way? Isn't that position the ultimate oxymoron? Of course there is that pesky thing called...WINNING...that critics cannot explain.

I visit regularly on the subject of college basketball with a dozen or so people on a regular basis, about half of them KU fans and the other fans of different programs...including MU; if you live in the KC metro area, chance are that some of your friend/colleagues will be MU fans. Without exception, they all agree that most every ADs in College BBall would give his right nut...scratch that...both nuts, first born and the wife too...to have Bill Self coach his program, and they don't understand the hate and criticism he seems to get in certain circles, particularly in view of the consistent success he has had and what he has achieved not only at KU but throughout his career.

The comments above are not directed to any member in particular and there is no malice intended; they simple reflect my opinion (and frustration and that of many other people on the subject) and as such, it could be wrong. Apologies in advance to anyone that is offended by them.

@RockChalkinTexas It's a shame you're already married, you'd make the perfect basketball wife to watch a game with.

@HighEliteMajor

BTW... loved your posts in this thread!

"Self laments a fiction. That team can't rely upon threes because teams could take that away, or you could have a bad shooting night, as if that can't happen underneath. "

Precisely.... and guess what... if your guys have any kind of motion in the offense it is harder for teams to take away the 3 than it is the post. Look at how much territory they have to cover versus the tiny confines of the post! We've experienced years of this in post season... where suddenly our post play dries up because of double and triple teams. And then that would open up our outside but we've had a year of hi/lo offense and our guys didn't know where the scoring seams were or have the confidence to hit the 3s, especially in March. And seriously... being a good perimeter shooting team is a lot more than just hitting a few shots.. it is all about the structure of the offense.

Self is really fighting all of basketball. Most everyone else has realized how valuable it is to be good from 3. The NBA (which has a 3pt line further out) is completely geared towards the 3... even bigs need to be capable at that distance.

This team continues to smoke from the 3pt line in spite of what Self is running on offense. Last night... heck... we were still hitting 3s and running God knows what on offense. Many of our shots were contested, many even blocked. But we still pursued the natural identity of who we are and we prevailed.

This really has become a battle for identity, between Self and his players.

None of us want Self's head on a stick. We just want him to step all the way out of his comfort zone and take advantage of this very talented team!

@drgnslayr Do you think this team went off script in the second half? There was clearly a point where there was a more concerted effort to get the ball inside but then it seemed like they just decided, "forget this! Let's bomb from deep!"

Are the players finally taken ownership of this team and playing to their own strengths? Self thought we took too many threes. Is that because he told them to work it inside and work the clock (T-Axis)?

We won big but Self seemed perturbed. Jesse mentioned Selden walking off the court without looking at Self.

Has Self been forcing his team to go through adversity so that they come out the other side stronger?

This is a false argument, Self will allow every open three point shot that 7 green-lighted guys can put up. Is it wrong to want defense, rebounds and fast breaks? No one is being shut down from shooting jump shots except all Big's not named Ellis. Fools gold refers to just shooting 3's and not doing the other things. The only fiction we're talking about is some fear that Self will have everyone quit shooting threes.

@wrwlumpy

I really think it is more than that. I agree with @HighEliteMajor and it isn't right calling 3s "fools gold" because it sends negative energy around shooting 3s. Brannen Greene is the "keeper of fools gold."

Self is usually pretty careful how he parses his words. That has always been something we all appreciate, especially since he came after Roy, who was famous for ticking off people with his comments.

Self does allow the 3-ball from most of his team. This is a major step from where he used to be. And guys are given more leeway.... less quick hooks, etc. And by doing that we are suddenly a remarkable 3-pt shooting team.

But "allowing" and "supporting" are not the same thing. Self needs to embrace the identity of this team, which is a "perimeter shooting team." In that area, he is slow to come around. He still is focused primarily "inwards out"...

What difference does it make if we shoot 20 or 40 3pt shots per game? We should take what the defense gives. If that is 100, we take 100!

I am optimistic he is changing some. As much as he has forced his philosophy on his team, his team has forced their own identity back on him. Everyone is getting a lesson in this, including Self.

I bet after the year is over, Self will mention this. I just hope it isn't one of those speeches like "I should have listened more to my guys" after a painful end-of-season loss.

@benshawks08

"Are the players finally taken ownership of this team and playing to their own strengths?"

To some degree, yes! I believe these guys really believe in the 3. And I think they want to prove it is more than "fools gold" to Self.

Maybe this is all just Self playing another poker hand. He is the master at controlling his information. The guy doesn't speak with loose lips. Maybe he just wants his guys to prove it. So he has put the carrot in front of them, to prove the 3! That wouldn't surprise me a bit.

All of us in here sometimes take him too literal. Sometimes we just need to sit back and watch the drama take place in front of us. It's not like we are dealing with a coach that loses many games! We should be able to cut him a little bit of slack and trust his judgment now and then!

Watch out everyone... I'm as capable of flipping opinions every bit as much as the political clowns we elect in DC! Maybe I missed my calling!!!

My guys, meaning KU Buckets?

!Capture.PNG ↗

@wrwlumpy: You had part of the quote. Self said "We had no low post game." He mentioned, too, "scoring off the pass." I have listened to coach Self very closely, and even in the past few weeks he's talked about throwing it inside to get easy baskets.

I will correct one item, my cut and pasted was partial -- I referred to delusional both regarding back to the basket and shooting 30% of attempts from three.

May I ask, you did not answer my questions -- could you indulge me?

I ask you then, is there any evidence now, on February 10, with seven regular season games left, to suggest that this team can get effective, reliable scoring the back to the basket way that Self prefers?

If the answer is "no" -- which I assume that it is -- is it not delusional to believe that something is suddenly going to change in that regard?

Again, this is limited to back to the basket stuff.

He is allowing the offense to open up by allowing Greene on the court.

I think we are too polarized by Self's "for the media" comments. I like HEM's posts, but I liked wrwlumpy's equally valid concern. But what if this is ALL coach-speak designed for commentators, and anybody in public who may be listening? Self may simply be trying to throw listening opposing coaches off. So he doesn't tell the announcers the truth. He lets us fans percolate like this off on a tangent, debating something he's already told the team to do. Maybe he is just being a crafty wolf with his public comments, all by design???

What if Self is OK with the 3 bombing, but still wants this squad to continue to improve its 2pt %. I don't like the sound of the debate when it sounds like an either/or proposition. Why cant we continue bombing treys, but get tougher on the inside too? Sheesh, what a concept: a royalty program that wants it all, except a 7ft rim protector which we just wont have this season.

In summary, I like everybody's thoughts on this, and there is no point in arguing the nuances of what-%-3pt-atts is "too many", as Self or the team itself will determine that.

One thing that is damn fun, is when that 3pt shooting bug becomes "infectious" and multiple guys start connecting from 3. It is an equalizer. My sane thought for Self is that he simply tells the kids to mix up the penetrations-for-dunk-assist with the penetrations-for-kickout-3. But then maybe he doesn't have to as Frank and Wayne are already doing that, as is Perry. If he is allowing them to read-the-D and make decisions during their penetration dribble-drives, all the better, as that decision-making will get us far in the Dance.

The only way dogged determination of pounding inside will get us far, is if our personnel for doing that playstyle are simply overpowering (which they are not). But you cannot become 1-dimensional either, because you become easier to scout and prep for. I think Self wants balance above all, simply to keep the opponent guessing.

And finally, there could be 2 equally true statements: 1) Historically speaking, it may well be fools gold to place too much reliance on the 3ball., and 2) This team is better at 3% than any past Self team. Ever.

@HighEliteMajor When I get home from work and get the DVR cooking. I'll make some visuals to indulge. Do you want coach to apologize to the players for saying "Fool's Gold?" After last night are you convinced he's washed up? Is Self Anti three point shooting? Has he really cheapened anyone? Are there no easy baskets inside?

@JayHawkFanToo - No one has said that we don't want a credible inside game, have they? No one has said to abandon the inside game.

You said, "We would all agree that they went insane; being one dimensional in sports is a recipe for failure...you have to have a complete game in order to be successful; it is no different for basketball."

No one has said that. The entire point is scheming to the strength of your team.

@Jesse-Newell had a great article this afternoon. He asked a good question. If you can play inside-out, why not outside-in?

Of course, you can play outside-in. Did you see our four out/one in offense? That's how you can get more inside post scoring. Isolation and spacing.

You fall into your continuous and impossible trap. You think that teams just tell us what to do. You said, "Look what happened at OSU. KU was shooting great from the outside (7 of 9) in the first half and then OSU adjusted the defense and got on the grill of the outside shooters and they could no longer score like they did in the first half (3 of 11)."

Again, I would implore you to follow along here. What did we do to scheme to get open three point looks? Nothing. Unfortunately, I rewatched the game. There was no change in what we did. This is where many fail to hold Self accountable -- it is a coach's job to adjust to OSU pushing our offense away from the basket. There was no schematic change. No adjustment. We just started a bit farther away because OSU changed their approach. So because OSU says so, we're going to go 3/11 from three? This is what you will never concede. You will never concede he did anything wrong, or that he failed to do something he should have, or could have. As you said in another post, you won't second guess him. That creates the cocoon from which you operate.

If a team pushed your offense away from the basket with tight pressure, what would you do? First thing I would do would be to go to a back cut game, but I digress.

Your point is good, in part. We shot 10-20 for the OSU game, right? That is terrific. I'll take that. But that just goes to what Self has said in the other elements of the game, and the need to improve. And that goes to your point, I believe. It is best to be a complete team (although no one seems to be saying anything to the contrary).

But it also bolsters my point, and the point of many others -- scheme and shoot more threes. Just not shoot them. Scheme to get three point looks.

@wrwlumpy: To answer your questions:

Do you want coach to apologize to the players for saying "Fool's Gold? No, I want him to stop making comments that demean his players' abilities -- those same abilities that are our only chance at a national championship. Our ONLY chance. (Does anyone dispute that with this team?)

After last night are you convinced he's washed up? No.

Is Self Anti three point shooting? Yes, he despises it. It's a third or fourth option.

Has he really cheapened anyone? Yes. Brannen Greene is "Fool's Gold." Best offensive weapon on the team, if that matters.

Are there no easy baskets inside? Very few with this team. Or have I missed something.

@drgnslayr - You said "None of us want Self's head on a stick. We just want him to step all the way out of his comfort zone and take advantage of this very talented team!"

Very well said. But guys like @JayHawkFanToo, like a lot of guys at the old site used to do, make into something it's not. It's not a tactical, schematic, or strategy discussion, everything is an attack on a God.

@HighEliteMajor Excellent posts regarding Self's recent comments.

What some on here are failing to understand is how out of place and, to an extent, inappropriate Self's comments are. A lot of this is on him for not having the personnel to have an inside out game that we have become accustomed to. This is the team he has and he needs to let them shoot. And if the other team does its job and compensates for the trey shooting, then drive and dish.

Good perimeter shooting really opens up the middle for guys like Perry to have room to operate.

And also, just because we are not on the coaching staff does not mean we are inept or stupid. Yes, Self is most likely a better coach than any of us or any two of us put together. But that does not mean that he is perfect or all knowing, because he is far from that. He has two very apparent weaknesses: lack of flexibility and choking in the tournament, both of which have resulted in losses that are bizarre and perplexing (UNI, VCU, etc.), and should never have happened.

That said, I think he is still a very good coach and wouldn't want someone else in his position. But at the same time he needs to work also on improving his weaknesses and not repeating those same mistakes, which is exactly what we all have to do in our everyday lives.

@ralster well said!

@DinarHawk first of all, Embiid was not a known OAD. I think what you are saying is what coach is saying. He's not holding the team back from shooting 3's, he wants them to get better at other things, ball movement, rebounding, defense, etc

I don't always know if I can figure out the method to Self's madness with what he says to the media. I think he is being hard headed about going inside. But as others have said, we need a balanced offense. We do need to be able to get the ball inside and we need the guards to penetrate. That all opens up the 3 ball which we shoot very well.
I do worry about living with the 3 and dying by the 3. At some point during the tournament (conf. or NCAA) we will likely be cold from the outside. Although.....we do have several guys that can shoot it well.

@DinarHawk I would go a bit further. There is a separate thread re a USAToday article comparing Coach K and HCBS over the past decade. Concludes that Self has a better record - indeed, better than any other coach over that period. Taking into account Xs and Os, recruiting, graduation rate, embrace of Jayhawk tradition, and likability, I think he has been and is the best.

Having said that, there are certainly times when I've been frustrated with him - as many die-hard Jayhawks have been. All coaches have systems, tendencies and biases. His have yielded extraordinary success over time. Notwithstanding, do I personally wish he would ride the same horses so much (e.g., EJ), not be so quick to yank certain players, and do more to take advantage of bench strength (well, at least in some years). Yes!!!!

But, I would be the first to acknowledge that I don't know that if he had been a bit more flexible that the outcomes would have been better. My own belief is yes, but you can't prove the counterfactual. What he has demonstrated compelling and consistently over time is that his approach and system does lead to being able to win games when shots are falling and in hostile environments. Win ugly.

What we've seen with this team, however, is that it just isn't constituted like most if not all other KU teams over the past decade. It's young and the bigs simply aren't as big or as talented. I think he's struggled to find to the right way to handle this team. For most of the season thus far, it has seemed that he has been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole - trying to generate back-to-the basket post scoring from guys that are neither big or skilled enough to do it consistently - and not at all against L&A opponents. At the same time, he is afraid of becoming too reliant on the thing that this particular group of players does better than any prior group of Jayhawks - make shots from beyond the arc, esp. when they have the freedom to take those shots and don't have to worry about being yanked the first time they miss one.

I'm hopeful it is coming together on the offensive in - more outside in, freedom to take open 3 pointers, but also a commitment to penetrate and find Perry down low when the floor is spread and he has some room to maneuver. I'm still most concerned, as I think he is, about a different balance - get more on the defensive end. As I noted in an earlier post, the defensive efficiency ratings for the past two years have been the lowest of the Self era - dramatically worse than most years. I think he believes, and I would concur, that we have to be able to consistently get stops for those games where the shots - from 3 or 2 - just aren't falling.

Because of youth and constitution, I'm not persuaded that we will get much better on the defensive end - hard to see significant improvement in basic stuff like boxing out and sliding to cut off penetration over the next 10 games. If so, it would seem that our best chance to make a run is simply to play to this team's strengths and a bit differently than Jayhawk teams of the past. Whether Self agrees is another matter. But, I still wouldn't trade him for anyone else....

****I think I have Bill figured out. Somewhere in the story of the Ugly Duckling, at some point, the ugly duckling finds out it's a swan. Bill, your team is a swan. And swans are great at shooting threes. We have no ducklings, ugly or not, in the middle. We must launch with our long necks. And shoot threes. **

Dang...lose at OSU and coach gets crucified. Win at Tech (granted, a league bottom feeder. But also a team that beat ISU) by 23 and get crucified.

Such is life for the king I guess.

I love the quality of the comments here. Truly some of the best and well-informed basketball conversation. Challenging and thought-provoking. But lately it seems to be overrun by a blanket of discontent. It's like we acknowledge that we're spoiled, and then in the same breath go "but..." and proceed to voice our perceived sleights. As if we're owed something and have been deprived.

Very few posts about the actual game last night. Little breakdown of individual performances. Very little optimism. If someone was reading this oblivious to the results, they might perceive from the tone that we lost last night.

Guess I'm just a little bit surprised that there wasn't more of a positive vibe following last night's game. That we're taking so very little from the actual game and so very much from post-game comments.

Oh well. On to Baylor.

(side note: please take nothing from my "crucified" and "king" references. They are metaphors. No, Self is not my god nor my king.)

@HighEliteMajor

Again, you are taking my points out of context to fit your narrative

There is no question that KU is playing from the outside in and that the inside game is not doing well...but then, how do you fix the inside game so you don't have a one dimensional game? You have to keep trying it until you improve it right?

KU is most definitely scheming to shoot the three and it has more success with some teams than others depending on how well they scheme to stop our outside game. Again. there is no question that KU is setting up the offense looking for the three and if the opportunity present itself feeding it inside; this is exactly what the team was doing last night, getting it inside when they had good looks, the only problem was that they were missing easy shots; in the second half those easy shots started to go in and the entire game changed because it opened up the game for the outside shot....this the ideal situation, isn't it?

Opposing teams will try to stop what is working and sometimes, despite the best laid plans, the team just does not execute the plan. Why do you think Coach Self is on the sidelines, red in the face screaming at players?...do you think he is telling them...good job, you are doing exactly what we planned? No, he is trying to tell them quite the opposite, but unfortunately it does not always work. You make it sound that if players are give a set play they will hit the 3 every time? No, they will not. Greene will do that better than anyone but other teams will do their best to prevent him from doing just that...and we are not talking Sister of the Poor caliber teams, we are talking top 25 teams. Our 3 point shooters have their limitations and you can see that Greene will not shoot unless he is isolated and wide open, KU tries to do that but obviously the other teams did not get the memo and try their best to no leave him open, Sure we can do a lot better against teams such as TTU which we can overwhelm with talent but it is not so simple against other equally capable teams. Would it surprise you to know that TTU, a team shorter than KU managed to blocks 4 shots...and 3 of them were 3 point shots and only 1 inside? Yes, our three point shooters do have limitations.

Again, I am not saying that KU should concentrate on the inside game and abandon the outside game that seems to be the strength of this team. All I am saying is continue playing from the outside in but do not stop trying to improve the inside game. Some day when the team goes 2 of 21 from the outside (see VCU game) we still have an inside game that can keep us in the game and hopefully bail us out. This is exactly what Coach Self is doing and you are critical of his approach...so what is it exactly that you want?

You said: ".... But guys like @JayHawkFanToo, like a lot of guys at the old site used to do, make into something it's not. It's not a tactical, schematic, or strategy discussion, everything is an attack on a God."

I read most every post in this forum and I can think of maybe a handful of occasions when you complimented Coach Self. Every other post of yours is criticism of him and even your compliments are of the left handed variety. You have called him every name from delusional to being on drugs and you are constantly stating -as a fact- that he is wrong and that he does not know what he is doing. It is obvious to me and most everybody with whom I converse on this issue and reads you posts that you like Coach Self even less that you like me...and boy oh boy, that is saying a lot. Any unbiased observer reading your posts would also come to the conclusion that you honestly believe that you know more than Coach Self and that you would do a better job; I certainly get that impression and so do all the people I know personally that follow this forum. You can deny it all you want but actions speak louder than words.

Again, I know a little about basketball but not enough to be even dangerous, let alone good at it, but then this not what I do for a living and at my job, I am much, much better at it than Coach Self is, and I don't see him second guessing what I do, so I return the favor and I don't second guess him at what he does best, particularly when I don't have all the information he does...and he does what he does it so much better than most. My last 2 cents on this topic

Let me inject this into the discussion: What if the 19-22yr old kids in a particular loss (UNI, VCU, Mich, OkieSt, etc) simply did NOT successfully execute the change-in-tactics or gameplan adjustment that Self actually did tell them to do? Your response to this hypothetical question depends on your own philosophy: one can say 'ok, the players didn't do what play the coach called for, so we don't know for a fact that Self failed to make a coaching adjustment'...OR...you could say 'well, he's the coach--they didn't get whatever adjustment implemented, so its coach's fault, buck stops there!'. Your choice. I know I see NFL pro-level teams not able to execute what may have been a perfect coach-called adjustment or playcall, right? Perfect analogy of what Im trying to say.

I don't think Self is infallible, just as I don't think Mike Krzyzewski is infallible. Heck, Self outright admitted it was his coaching error that cost the 08Champs the game vs KState in Manhattan that year (trying to double team Beasley, which the 08 guys were dutifully flying around trying to do, but got beat by then-unknown 3shooters named Clemente + Pullen shooting open looks in their own gym). Self made the adjustment, and the return game at AFH was a purple massacre. Self isn't always right. But I'd bet the farm (& the Ferrari) on what he truly believes in private. But I'd strongly advise taking his public, to-media comments with a grain of salt. He has proven to be too crafty to take that stuff literally! Notice how the OkieState "cowboy" mascot has the cockeyed grin...well, y'all got one of those fellas right there in Lawrence in that office that used to be Roy's...

One more big-pix perspective angle: Every college basketball game there are 2 highly motivated coaches scheming and plotting against their opponent after having seen the scout film and reports. Once the game ends there's a loser and a winner. The losing players either didn't execute their coach's gameplan (seldom are those gameplans actually wrong, isn't that correct???), or there is the chance that the gameplan was just flat wrong. But that is a miniscule minority of gameplans, as such fundamentally wrong coaches wouldn't last long, right?

If you are a TxTech alum, who would you blame for the TxTech loss to KU? Tubby Smith, a guy who's built 4 winning programs and has a ring, or his very, very young squad that is still learning (uh, kinda like Billy Self's team is, but then y'all knew that...) how to reliably execute. Heck TxTech is still learning how to shoot the ball. What in-game adjustments did Tubby Smith make or not-make that cost his kids the game. Why did they melt down in the 2nd half? They got length and athleticism. And didn't Odiase actually outplay that Cliff Alexander MickeyD-from-Chicago? (yes he did). So who do you blame for the TxTech loss if you are a TxTech alum/fan? Come on, lets drive this home. Gotta blame somebody, right?

@icthawkfan316 You're right. Not enough comments about the game in general.
I saw Greene's lallygagging on defense and sure enough......he came out. It was pretty blatant lazy defense. I don't understand why he would do that even for one play. We need him in there because he is an unbelievable weapon. Selden has shot the ball well enough of late that his 3 pt %, well as his FT % are now decent....unlike earlier in the season.
I thought Cliff played well other than the first couple of trips....but Oidase did outplay him. I think Cliff will continue to improve.
We finally got some decent seals inside in the 2nd half and got some easy baskets. One bad half, one good half......never heard that one before.

Self is fine. I think he has a fair balance of inside/out play. I watched several passes inside against TT. They looked a lot like the Bill Self KU inside game that we're used to. I believe we are all used to Withey, the twins, Robinson, and Embiid playing inside. They made that piece of the game look really easy. So much, the outside shooting of Reed, EJ, Rel, BMac's shooting paled a bit. Although Releford and BMac held their own. I don't think Wigs ever got on track quite like Greene and Selden. He relied more on attacking the rim and was able to hit the long ball, but again, he had a lot of inside help. Wigs was more hesitant to pull the trigger and tended to forced a lot inside, when he should've pulled up for short jumpers. He was a bit intimidated at times when he found himself defended at the rim, by missing many bunnies. Ellis is doing a lot of this too.

Last night was what we need for the rest of the season. If they can balance the inside game with the outside game, we'll be fine. I think Self is simply saying not to rely on outside shooting. He wants to supplement the long ball with just enough deep, inside pins to keep teams honest. They moved the ball inside/out and outside in fairly well. TT defended inside fairly well too.

I don't think Self is choking Greene or anyone else. He's said many times that Greene needs to take more and in fact, he even said they need to create some plays that will open his shooting frequency. I don't know where you think Self is preventing this team from shooting 3s. It's clear he's way more open to 3s then any other team.

He recognizes the teams potential. He knows they can go inside and then pull up outside. We're not as long either, so he realizes a few more 3s are needed to pull defenses out. Remember, in the past, teams would pack it in and allow KU to shoot 3s because they weren't quite as accurate. They are fine and peaking about right leading into the back half of the season. They should be ready for B12 tourney and beyond.

The D is coming along really well. They need to keep up the pressure and intensity on the ball to create those much needed TOs and transition points too.

@HighEliteMajor I know that you and I both love and live and die Jayhawks. I, like Keith Langford, was upset when the Run and Gun of Roy left us, to be taken over by a defensive minded coach. After 12 years I shared the joy of a National Championship, and the heartbreak of every loss. Your passion seems to be much greater than mine. You are brilliant in your anger. I don't understand the blame and harsh words though. I've been wrong in many of my assessments of players. I once stated that Selden was the leader of this team, I was wrong. I thought Svi's early showing would have him be a star this season. I defended Jamari just yesterday over Cliff. I just wanted to say that I don't believe Coaches statement was evil in regards to "Fools Gold."
I did think we must try to set up the outside shots by at least not being one dimensional. We did play inside successfully in the second half and hit six straight threes.
You were championing Brannen last year long before anyone else. The announcer last night asked Coach if Brannen was the best shooter he has ever coached. Self said he was and the only other that was nearly comparable was Brandon Rush. But the bile that this defensive coach has had to swallow this year because of poor defense could kill him.
Let me illustrate a few thoughts:

We can play inside the three point line, but not a back to the basket Withey's or Robinson style!image.jpg ↗

He missed the dunk but got fouled.

Here is Brannen letting Lucas clear for Ellis to come to the middle!
Ellis stops and hits the easytwo. !image.jpg ↗

Here is coach always coaching and caring. If he screams, he cares. People on the bench don't get yelled at. After the coaching there is a pat on the back and a smile.!image.jpg ↗

He is sent back onto the court and then this happens...!image.jpg ↗

That is when Simon brought up the deficiencies on defense. Coach is doing everything he can. I'm also sorry to have been so sarcastic.

@KUinLA Please don't allow my simplifications to grow too complex or befuddling. My wife declares that she views tongue in cheek as among my most irritating qualities. Sometimes I do seem to squeeze a bit too much juice from thinskinned lemons.

This is one inside play that involved a beautiful shot fake and pass from Devonte and a super seal by Perry.

!image.jpg ↗

Great illustrations, wrwlumpy. Greene getting burned was seared into my brain, but I'd forgotten it was right after the sideline meeting with the coach. LOL.

@ralster The error in your analogy here is that you don't take into account the relative skill levels of the players on each team. At least 5 of Kansas' top rotation players are going to be drafted into the NBA, whenever they decide to declare. They may not make the roster, but Cliff, Perry, Wayne, Kelly and Brannen are all going to be drafted. They are of that skill level. How many of TT's players are going to be drafted? Probably none.

This is a game you are expected to win easily. If you beat a vastly more talented team, it's a great coaching victory. And if you don't dispatch a vastly less talented team, where does the blame lie? Well, on this chat board, if your name is Calipari, it's clear evidence that you're a terrible coach. If you're Bill Self, the blame formerly rested squarely on the players shoulders. Not so much anymore.

Repeated tournament upsets have people questioning the coach's methods. Maybe Bill's just a victim of his own success, but that's the source of the anxiety and unease (even in a win) on this board. Either we're under-peforming in the tournament (year after year) or we're over-rated.

If you go into the tournament as an overall #1 or 2 seed, anything less than a Final Four is a disappointment. If you go in as a 2 seed or higher, anything less than an Elite Eight is a disappointment, and an exit in the first weekend is a disaster. How many times have we seen our draft laden teams get upset by nobodies? Nobodies who didn't win another game in the tournament. It's that history that has posters angst-ing over this team's prospects. We seen it all before.

@KUinLA The tournament upsets are certainly the biggest issue for most fans including myself. Our standards and our expectations are just incredibly high. We expect a Final 4 every year and if we go out in the Elite 8 even that is a "how did this happen?" situation. The same expectations are an issue at UNC, Duke, Cuse, UK, et cetera.

The early round upsets do seem to cloud our vision a bit though. Let's just pretend we make it to the Elite 8 or beyond this year. If that is the case Bill will have gone to the Elite 8 6 times in 12 years. 50% of his years we will be in a one game playoff to get to the Final 4. Assuming that happens I consider that a pretty good percentage. If it doesn't and we lose to a team I have never heard of in the first weekend? Well, I drink heavily and cuss about our awful gameplan and once I am over it I will make bold claims like "next year we may not lose a game".

Our post seasons may not live up to our expectations (certainly not mine) but things could be worse. This year is a great example of our consistency under both Bill and Roy. We just keep being in the discussion for 1 and 2 seeds. Florida, UCONN, Cuse, MSU, Michigan...these teams probably don't even make the NCAA Tournament this year.

@lincase good post! Good analogies. I dont think anyone will disagree with your perspective on this issue here!! Let them run!

@RockChalkinTexas Coach Self is one of the greats. That much is certain. But, this team is the best 3 point shooting team he has ever had. He has 6 guys that are perfectly capable of shooting greater than 40% from trey. SIX! Sure, there will be a game when 4 of his gunners arent shooting it well at all. But, all six!? No. The law of averages says other wise to me. Just let the other 2 fire away.
But, then again, if we dont have any low post presence, a team full of L&A's will just crowd the arc and prevent easy shots. Its a conundrum of sorts.

@JayHawkFanToo What I think is most irritating with you is the shallowness of your responses, and the inaccuracies of your attempts to challenge statements here. You say right out of the box -- "There is no question that KU is playing from the outside in and that the inside game is not doing well .."

KU is playing from the outside-in? You do see the high-low we played 100% of the time the past two games, right? You do see the constant focus on feeding the post, right? You did see Selden say right after the last game the following - "we like to play inside-out, that's how we play." Kansas is running the same offense they always have. They are taking appx. the same rate of three point shots. I don't even know what to say this.

It's not that you disagree. It's how you try to disagree. It's that you disagree and you make red herring statements like "Our 3 point shooters have their limitations ...", as if that means something.

And you don't magically improve the inside game with 7 games left. Please explain to me how this changes now? Game to game, match ups might help. But beyond that, this is the offensive team we have. But keep trying to "improve" as you say? It's not about that. It's about scheming to your strength (again, I think you misunderstand that. It doesn't mean shoot all threes, or 40% of your shots as threes. Or a set number. It is attacking teams trying to get those looks, and then capitalizing when either they don't stop it, or they try to stop it. You might scheme to get threes and not even shoot one for quite a while in a game. I mentioned back cutting when team pressure out. Just one of many options. I have said many, many times that I'll take the reliable scoring at the rim any day of the week.).

This is a perfect example of the shallowness of your replies. You say, "KU is most definitely scheming to shoot the three and it has more success with some teams than others depending on how well they scheme to stop our outside game."

Of course, you never say how. You never point to a change in their scheme. You never, ever come here with a review of the game to demonstrate that (or anything else). Nothing.

You attempt to prove the point that Self is supposedly scheming to get threes with the following, "Why do you think Coach Self is on the sidelines, red in the face screaming at players?...do you think he is telling them...good job, you are doing exactly what we planned?"

That is simply useless.

Brannen Greene said just last week that he is free to shoot within the flow of the offense -- again, within the flow of the offense.

There is nothing .. zero .. that has changed in their offense to get more three point looks. From a set-play standpoint, I noted a specific play against Utah where they got Greene a three point shot. It was very obvious. V-cut to and from the baseline with a screen. Has anyone seen that since?

You said, "You make it sound that if players are give(n) a set play they will hit the 3 every time? No, they will not."

I'm sorry, I have no idea what planet you live on. It isn't a basketball planet. And it isn't a reading comprehension planet. Someone please enlighten me, have I ever made it sound as if we'll hit "every" three? Or even 50%? I've talked plainly about 40%.

You said, referring to yourself, "Again, I know a little about basketball but not enough to be even dangerous, let alone good at it ... "

With that, I conclude.

For those that think teams can just stop your three point shooting if you're trying to shoot them, do this -- think about who was the best three point shooters in recent memory? Guys you don't want to have the ball. And guys, like Greene, who are deadly from the three point line as well.

One might be JJ Reddick, right? In his four years at Duke, Reddick shot 238, 258, 300, and 330 three pointers in the years he played. Do you think teams tried to stop that dude from shooting? I would think so. And he shot over 40% for his career. So don't tell me that Greene won't get good looks if teams try to stop him -- if we're scheming/working to get him looks. And do you think, possibly, that coach K schemed to get Reddick open looks? Maybe? Greene shot only three, three pointers the other night. Best shooter in the country.

@HighEliteMajor So are you saying that because Reddick shot 238, 258, 300, and 330 three pointers in his four years at Duke and shot at a better than 40% clip that means no team was ever successful at scheming to stop him (or at least slow him down)? Because that is what you're saying by throwing out those stats and thinking they disprove that teams were capable of stopping and/or slowing down three point shooting.

During his senior season, in which he put up the most 3-point attempts during his career, Wake Forest appears to have had particular success in defending Redick. In the first meeting, Redick was 1-3 from behind the arc while playing 30 minutes (a Duke win). In the second meeting, he was 0-4 while playing 25 minutes (a Duke loss). There are other examples of him either having low attempts in a game that season (3 in 36 minutes against Colorado St.) or him shooting poorly (1-11 in a loss to KU in that year's NCAA tournament), so it is possible for even the greatest shooters to be defended well, either into low attempts or low success.

Also, Reddick was starter for most (if not all) of his tenure at Duke. He averaged 30.7, 31.1, 37.3, and 37.1 mpg. Greene is averaging 14.7 mpg this season. Scheme or not, Greene is not going to average as many looks per night as Redick did simply because of reduced time on the court. So pointing out that he only shot three 3-pointers in a game is misleading. You have to adjust for playing time. Redick averaged 7.0 3-point attempts his sophomore year while playing 31.1 mpg. Greene shot only three, three pointers the other night, while playing 14 minutes. Adjust that to 31.1 minutes, and the total would be 6.7 attempts. Pretty close to the 7 Redick averaged.

So you can argue for more minutes, and I'd entertain that argument. But three 3-pointers in 14 minutes isn't a stymied pace.

Add to that the several instances last game and vs. OSU where specific plays were drawn up to get open threes. The elevator screen play has been seen several times. We ended the first half with a drive and flare screen for Wayne. Our guards have been driving to kick out instead of dish. There have been more aggressive skip passes against zone to get open looks on the perimeter.

The offense is definitely perimeter oriented and vs. OSU it clearly wasn't enough.

Part of outside-in is IN. Against Tech we needed to work on executing more IN because OUTSIDE was killing them! The win was sealed so we didn't need to focus on our strengths as much as we did. That is why Self said we shot too many threes and that it is "fools gold."

He is trying to prevent this extremely talented shooting team from relying on the three. You think Brennan Greene is going to shoot worse because his coach doesn't value him? He is in the game to shoot and score. When he is in we work to get him looks. Actions speak louder than words. Greene's psyche is fine.

@benshawks08 I disagree. A huge part of loss was due to turnovers, not a flaw in the outside in offensive strategy.

@icthawkfan316 I grant you pretty much everything you have said. Good shooters certainly can be guarded well. I'm not painting with an all encompassing brush. I just think that Reddick is an interesting case study.

Over the course a year, one of the best dual threat guys -- 3 pt/FT % -- got off over 1,100 attempts.

No doubt, you can work to take one guy out of a game. You could play the "extra help" game where the nearest off defender prioritizes help over his own man. But over the course of a season, it just won't happen that way.

Further, as is obvious, when you really take a guy away, the Red Sea parts elsewhere. Particularly with more talented teams.

You will also have games when there is truly a lockdown, 1 on 1 defender that wreaks havoc -- I think of a long Brandon Rush type guarding a Reddick.

But over the course of a season, one guy won't be taken away.

I really like the shots per minute comparison there ... the "per minute" thing is real important in my thinking on stats.

**Also, I am curious about your reference to Reddick losing to KU his senior season in the tourney. We got bounced in 05-06 vs. Bradley. What were you referring to?

@Crimsonorblue22 I am not referring to Embiid going pro. I am referring to recruiting post players that can execute Self's inside out strategy.

@DinarHawk my point was he thought Embiid would be here longer so he didn't recruit a footer for his offense.

@DinarHawk Sorry if that was misleading. I was not trying to say Outside in was wrong or flawed. I was just saying we got a significant amount of looks from three especially when you consider how much we turned it over. Obviously turn overs were a major problem in the second half. I'm just trying to say that we need to be able to score inside to provide some balance. Self has shown he is willing to "free the three" but not to the detriment of balance.

@HighEliteMajor Wasn't his senior year. It was his freshman year, '02-'03. My bad