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Ok not much info on Cliff and his NCAA problem. However breath easy. From what little I've read the only danger KU would have is if they decided to play Cliff despite the NCAA warning. It seems what has happened has nothing to do with KU. The NCAA seems to by promising a quick conclusion to the case. We will see.

Think about it KU faithful ??? The NCAA warned KU about Cliff and his eligibility. KU responded quickly and without a doubt Cliff doesn't play.

At first I thought maybe it was about the High School education he received. However after a few KU Faithful responses I'm not sure he or somebody in his family didn't contact an agent for the up coming draft.

@DoubleDD
I'm with you, I bet it's contact w an agent or the family taking some money from one.

@DoubleDD Anybody driving a new Escalade?

word is this involves his dad. no confirmed source but if that's true that's gonna cost him games.

there is priority on this case so chances we know something sooner than later look good.

I hope it's not contact with an agent but I fear with the timing it probably is. Be it Cliff, his family, or a family friend. I'm sure it's something similar to the Ben screw up. Which to me is rather selfish of the player or player's family/friend.

I'd really like someone to ask the responsible party this: Why??

Are they that desperate to get their hands in that NBA cookie jar that they'll risk the entire teams success for their own personal gain?? Because they can't wait until the season is over??

Is KU Athletics Inc. not getting the message across to these players on what's acceptable and not?? Does KU, and if they don't should they, have a weekly 3 hour sit down class for all first year student-athletes?? Or a weekly 1 hr class every semester for all athletes, just so they don't forget the ins and outs?

Does KU give the information to the families on what they can and can't do? Should the families all have to do a course yearly on what's expected of them for KU to run a clean program.

Are there not enough days between the NCAA Championship and NBA Draft (80 days this year) for players to find and vent the proper representation?? Does one or both need to move their day to accommodate for the players?

@Kip_McSmithers good questions!

@Kip_McSmithers

If its his family, how is Cliff supposed to control that aspect if he say has no knowledge of the fact ala a Cam Newton situation.

If Cliff willingly knows that his dad/family is shopping his services then he probably gets suspended for the rest of the year and goes pro like he was going to anyway.

If he only gets a few games suspension or none at all, do we even want him back with one foot out the door already? He'd only be back to try and improve his "own" stock.

A lot of ways this could go down if in fact its a benefit situation...

I'm just gonna go ahead and say what I've been thinking all year regarding Cliff.

I grew up in Chicago. I love Chicago hoops. I cheer for Chicago kids to do well in college and move on to the league.

Cliff however revealed character issues when he did his stupid stunt on signing day. If you don't recall, he grabs the U of I hat, then takes it off and puts our hat on. Great he's coming to KU!

On the other hand, Illinois' and Chicago's basketball psyche is pretty fragile right now. They haven't been able to recruit Illinois' best players since Self left. So the entire state (exaggeration I know) sees him put the U of I hat on and collectively thinks great! Then he makes the switch. He did this to his friends, neighborhood, school, city and state. Not very wise or classy.

I know he was in HS. Still, I had a little less regard for Cliff that day. Are his problems now related to character issues in some way or other? We'll not likely know, at least for a while.
But it may.

If it's his family, didn't his dad draw some unnecessary attention to himself when his signing occurred? I'm thinking there was something.

My subconscious thought since Saturday's announcement: Is Snacks wound up in the middle of another negative KU hoops fiasco? Just my natural tendency toward skepticism, I hope....

@BeddieKU23

That's a good question, how are any of these kids supposed to control their families?? I don't know if it's up to the kids or the universities to hold the families accountable but the NCAA sure thinks one or both are capable. Could KU Athletics have parents/guardians sign an affidavit declaring they will not act any manner with intent to seek financial gain until their child has declared for the draft?? Because the universities are the ones being punished for the families actions.

Did D.Rose miss out on anything? Or was it Memphis? Same goes for Reggie Bush and his parents getting a Hummer (I think that's what they got). What did his parents give up financially? Anything? We all know USC suffered.

If Cliff knowingly had someone reach out to an agent or handler I'd be done with him. It's a team sport and should be about making your team better. Not about one person's selfish actions that could wait until April.

@Kip_McSmithers
I was living in SoCal at the time. The papers said Reggie Bush was driving a nice car, and his parents had moved to a nice home in San Diego. All the while he was still playing for USC. The NCAA drug their feet so Reggie finished the season and played in a bowl game. The way I remember it the guy that handed out the goodies thought he had a lock on being Reggie's agent. When that didn't happen he took them to court to recover $$$.

@JayhawkRock78 Never heard all of that. Not shocked to hear that the NCAA drug their feet so a superstar(s) could play on the big stage. $$$$$$

Did the creep win any of that money back?

If they did lose money it's only because they backed out of the deal with the slime ball that was knowingly breaking rules himself.

The truth is we know nothing about the facts, so any and all speculation at this point is borrowing trouble, imo.

@Kip_McSmithers All great questions assuming you know all the facts of the case. How do you know that KU doesn't spend a bunch of time going over what's permissible and what's not with their players?

@wissoxfan83 So you knew he was going to be "trouble" the second he picked up the hat. It's been a long, long time since you've been 18, I take it.

I can remember Admin/Coaches saying they spend a lot of time going over what's permissible and what's not. HCBS has spoke about this when something else was alleged (McLemore?). Didn't HCBS say you can't follow everyone around 24/7?

You have to hope that kids realize the implications that can befall them or the program if they fail to follow the rules.

No one knows for sure so I am going to wait until the facts come out.

@wissoxfan83 I tend to agree. Can't help contrasting Cliff's announcement with the way Andrew Wiggens announced--at his high school, one reporter, no hats.We have been on the wrong side of the hat ceremony enough times for me to feel empathy for anyone else who is.

@KUSTEVE just guessing that coach self wasn't pleased w/it! I think the part that makes it look bad, his parents were sitting there too. No matter how crazy you and maybe me were at 18, my parents would have kicked my rear!

@lincase wiggins, always classy!

@Kip_McSmithers
He wanted 300k. They settled out of court. Neither side disclosed the amount.

If you are interested -here is a lengthy bit on Lloyd Lake. I didn't know this guy had a criminal record. According to this he became friends with them while Reggie was in high school.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2008-01-17-reggiebush-book_N.htm ↗

@KUSTEVE I don't know all of the facts, just those that we've all read. That's why I had all of those questions about classes for student athletes, info for the families, the time between the draft, ect.. This might be shocking, I'm clueless. ;) Besides what Self has offered up in the past during NCAA incidents (Ben, Darnell) I'm ignorant to what the university/athletics department does to protect it's brand. I'm sure KUAI tries it's best to cover it's arse though.

Somehow, someway the NCAA and all professional leagues need to find a way to make all responsible parties (agents, AAU coaches, high school coaches, handlers, shoe co execs, players, boosters, coaches, family, friends) accountable in these types of situations. I'm not saying chop off Larry Browns hands for being a flipping human, having a heart, and buying a ticket for a kid to go to a family funeral but when the people involved are out for financial gain there has to be something they can all do to deter the bad behaviors of adults. How though??

@KUSTEVE We've all done stupid things, but I agree with @wissoxfan83 - it was a childish / insensitive move. Even if you're not smart enough ( and I don't know him personally, he may be the smartest dude in town ) you should have friends, coaches, advisors, mentors - SOMEONE telling you - on a big time stage like that - don't be stupid.

@KUSTEVE Don't put words in my mouth! I didn't say "I knew he was going to be trouble".

@nuleafjhawk Heaven forbid, we must never be insensitive. So, you think Cliff is no good just like Wissox, eh?

@wissoxfan83 said:

@KUSTEVE Don't put words in my mouth! I didn't say "I knew he was going to be trouble".

What he said ^

@wissoxfan83 From the day of the hat ceremony, you decided Cliff had poor character, and now , without knowing one single fact of the case, are using his "poor character" as a rationale to slam him. You could be totally 100% right in your evaluation about Cliff, but I personally resent such character assassination without having one single fact out on the table.

@KUSTEVE he said he had a little less regard, didn't everybody? Doesn't mean we all still do. Wissox fan is a good guy. Nuleaf too!

@KUSTEVE U Mad Bro ? :punch:

"Not very wise or classy." ... "I had a little less regard for Cliff that day Are his problems now related to character issues in some way or other? We'll not likely know, at least for a while. But it may."

@KUSTEVE - I'm not sure why you're so upset with me, and particularly @wissoxfan83 . He didn't make one single "slam" or accusation. Merely stated his opinion.

I hope you have a better day. Maybe ISU will help tonight.

@KUSTEVE "poor character" shouldn't be in quotations because I said "character issues". Of course it's speculation. But we speculate all day long for 365 1/4 days of the year on this site. And there are two facts on the table. He did the dumb hat thing and now he's unofficially suspended for who knows what. So, since they haven't told us, we speculate.

I think it's foolish to think that the AD isn't on top of informing these kids of the do's and don't's when it comes to their college careers and looking beyond whether it's talking to an agent or taking gifts/money under the table. And if you think KU wasn't on top of this before BMac, I'm sure they were afterwards. The school can preach til they're blue in the face to the student/athlete, parents, and miscellaneous other family members, but there will always be somebody who tries to get away with it. "Yeah, man, I'll put a good word in for you with my cousin for $10,000." I just don't believe you can blame the school, AD, or coaches for not getting the word out. Especially a high profile D1 basketball program. It's like your kids. You can tell them the pitfalls of smoking/drugs/alcohol, but once they're out of sight they may do whatever they want. Is it your fault?

You know as this topic has kind of turned to the character issues of Cliff and whether he should come back or not.

Let me go on record as saying I hope this whole deal is just the NCAA trying dig up something only to find nuts. Also let me say I hope Big Cliff comes back to KU for another year.

Cliff is no different than any other kid coming out of High School. As we are starting to see a lot of these OAD's have major holes in their game. I have no doubt that Cliff has always been much bigger, stronger, and more athletic ability than his piers while growing up. Problem is his coach's instead of teaching him the fundamentals of basketball, like how to score with his back to the basket, tried to get as much out of him for their own personal gain. Poor Cliff is finding out he isn't the biggest and badest on the court, and the lack of basic teaching from his youth has left him grasping with no real skill set to give him any traction. Hence the freefall he's been in.

If anything Cliff is a Jayhawk and he needs another year with HCBS he really does. Maybe even a third year. Just my opinion.

The love of money may not be the root of all evil but I'm pretty sure the NCAA makes a lot of money by marketing student athletes. So they sound a little sanctimonious when they punish the student for violating NCAA rules. Seems the foxes own the chicken coop but don't want to own up to their self-interest.

I don't have a good answer for how to keep the game honest when there is so much money floating around. I don't think all the onus should be on the athletes, though.

I feel bad for Cliff and KU, but mostly Cliff.

@Careful-you until I hear the whole truth, I'll wait to decide.

@Kip_McSmithers

"I'd really like someone to ask the responsible party this: Why??

Are they that desperate to get their hands in that NBA cookie jar that they'll risk the entire teams success for their own personal gain?? Because they can't wait until the season is over??"

Let me put it this way.... go to some village in the world full of starving people. Place an Oreo cookie on a stump and tell the village that you will be back tomorrow. If the cookie is still there, you will feed the village for a year. Think that cookie will still be there?

I have never been in such a desperate state... but I've known many people who have. I've had to deal with an entire community that was taking apart their own homes and selling off the scrap bits for food, alcohol and drugs.

This situation might involve an individual just wanting inroads to Cliff later, and may have greased the wheel to do it. Heck yes someone around Cliff will take the perk.

The NCAA lives in a bubble. Away from poverty. So their structure treats many of the athletes coming from limited means in an unrealistic way.

To the best of my knowledge, all Kansas sports scholarship athletes are required to be informed of the rules regarding contacts and benefits. That has been a part of our compliance program since it was formed back in the 80s.

But there isn't anything in place to fully educate all the people associated with the athlete. That is where there is a hole in our system that can't easily be fixed.

I do think KUIA is doing a good job of informing the student athletes themselves on the rights and wrongs. I imagine they do a lot and then some to cover their own bases so they can go to the NCAA when violations happen and say "we gave the kid the info, what more could we have done...".

They do have this for parents. University of Kansas Athletics - Compliance - Jayhawk Parents ↗

Also a section for us fans.

What if they started punishing the guys handing out the cash, for example: banning the money men from representing athletes in the pros, not allowing any agency that's associated with money men from representing athletes, ect... would this keep our beloved amateur sport clean?

The NCAA guidelines education process go way further back than most know about. When my daughter plays in these tourneys all the athletes are required to watch a film from the NCAA before they play. It might have even started before she got to high school

@nuleafjhawk Not having a bad day, guy. I'm getting the same exact comments about Cliff from folks that dislike KU a lot, so I expect that on general bb boards.... just not here...

College Sports Nation on Sirius radio when I was coming home (Mark Packer and Tom Brennan) said it was an academic issue but did not elaborate any further so not sure where they got that. Just reporting the only thing I have heard. Take it for what it is worth.

@Kip_McSmithers What would you ban them for? All they're doing is offering a kid some money to sign so and so agent or shoe company. That's business. It's not an NCAA rules violation not breaking a law.

I'm looking at it glass half full. If it's bad enough that we lose Alex, then we will have an extra schollie. If not, he stays and we can become that much better. Either way, it's a win win.

I don't care what it is, as long as it doesn't impact the program in any way. I think KU is distancing itself from Alex, which tells me he's going to take the fall away from KU, not at KU. I hate to admit it, but I think it's an agent thing.

All schools including KU have extensive programs to inform students and parent on what is and isn't permissible. Student in particular go through an orientation program before the season that outlines in great detail what is expected of them. With all the NCAA information readily available and all the precedent out there, any player that claims ignorance of the rules, to me is the equivalent of people suing tobacco companies claiming they did not know cigarettes caused cancer...right....