Jesse Newell retweeted this:
Jesse Newell retweeted
Michael O'Brien @michaelsobrien · 6m6 minutes ago
Hearing it is possible Cliff Alexander may be cleared to play for Kansas this weekend. Also, expect him to stay at KU for another year.
Great news IF true.
@RockChalkinTexas JNew knows everything. Will be looking forward to seeing Cliff fill in with the others in Perry's absence.
As for next year, he'd be foolish to go pro. All of the experts, and by that I mean us here at the Bucket, know that he needs to come back to KU next year.
If he comes back, send him to a pro Big man Camp.
Says??? The family attorney?
I am skeptical about sources like that. They don't have access to any privy info from the NCAA. From sources you can trust (like KU) they would never leak out news ahead of the NCAA.
Hate to be Negative Nancy on this one... but I'm not getting my hopes up, especially on a timely resolution. Seems "timely" would be more like the middle of March.
@RockChalkinTexas So, should we expect a full retraction from the KU posters who were openly questioning Cliff's character? I know...I'm a dreamer... ...
@drgnslayr negative Ned! Not Nancy, you're a boy.
In fact, this nonsense has got to stop. I would like to see KU and Bill Self sign a kid and then invite the parents to a half day or all day event with various representatives.
I'd like to see Sean Zenger, our NCAA in house lawyers, Bill Self, and a few players (past or present) provide some education on what to expect and how to protect their son's reputation. They need to educate these parents and families. There needs to be a more stringent academic review by KU to dig into the records, and have complete access to recruits' transcripts. I also think these 'elite' athletes should have some kind of monitored test taking (ACT or SAT) to prevent any Derrick Rose issues.
This is an unnecessary evil, but necessary all the same with the snakes crawling in the grass.
@truehawk93 maybe we do? Does anyone know? I'm guessing there is a program in place.
@Crimsonorblue22 We do have a quasi-clearing house. It's the same group that caught BMac and Traylor's little academic issues. They reported it to the NCAA and I believe KU already imposed missing some games. The NCAA then pushed further for them to "practice, but not play for the year."
The academic thing may not be much of an issue as the family thing. It's funny how BMac survived his academic issue and then turned around later in the year with that birthday bowling party by that stupid agent, who paid for it all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he sign BMac? He was then later fired by BMac if I'm not mistaken.
@wissoxfan83 I think your response with Gottlieb summarizes it best - you openly defend the announcer who has ran down KU more than any other announcer ever... BUT, the second Gottlieb says an unkind word about Kaminsky or Wisconsin, you completely trash him. I guess I keep mistaking you for a Big Ten troll, as your comments don't always add up. I mean, you develop this attitude towards Cliff because he had the gall to insult a Big Ten team in some silly hat ceremony which you parade out as "evidence" of character issues. The same exact response I got from my IU and MSU trolls from another board. And like your selective amnesia with Gottlieb, I wonder if Cliff had picked up a Kentucky hat instead of Illinois, if you would've even noticed it. Now, I appreciate your posts about our bad shooting, and it is always really important to get our Badger updates..but beyond that, I will not direct anymore comments to you. Hope your Badgers do well.
I think you mistake my point on Gottlieb. I don't really care what he or any other announcers say. Sure I listen, but I don't care. I should've used my sarcasm font when I said I hate him after the kaminsky comment I guess.
I apologize for the Badger updates and appearing to be a Big 10 troll. I grew up in Big 10 country, in Chicago, really didn't know Kansas had a tradition laden team until I enrolled there, then moved to Wisconsin where I lived a long time. I love Kansas, KU, Jayhawks, etc. I don't spend hours a day on Badgerbucketts.com or anything like that. I do cheer for the Big 10, and to be honest, would have been happy if Cliff had enrolled at the U of I instead of us, although I was glad he came here.
I will always be a Jayhawk fan first, but I will also speak my mind when I want to as well, as is my right! RCJHKU
Kansas forward Cliff Alexander remains sidelined because of an NCAA inquiry into possible impermissible benefits received by one or more of his family members from an NBA agent, multiple sources have told Yahoo Sports.
Alexander has not yet been interviewed by the NCAA, sources said, though not because of a reluctance by either the school or NCAA investigators. Sources said legal counsel has been retained by the Alexander family and that may be slowing the investigative process.
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Cliff Alexander has missed the Jayhawks' past two games. (USA Today)
Alexander will not be reinstated until after an NCAA interview occurs and a decision is made on whether benefits received by his family are impermissible. If it is ruled that a violation occurred, Alexander's eligibility for the remainder of the season could be affected.
Mike Oliver, who coached the five-star recruit in Chicago at Curie High School, told Yahoo Sports Thursday that he visited Alexander Feb. 21 when the Jayhawks played TCU and was concerned.
"I knew something wasn't right," Oliver said. "He just wasn't Cliff."
A week later, Alexander was sidelined with what the school termed an "NCAA issue." Kansas has not commented on the nature of the issue, but sources confirmed to Yahoo Sports that it is agent-related.
Alexander has missed the No. 9 Jayhawks' past two games, victories over Texas and West Virginia. That hasn't prevented Kansas (24-6, 13-4) from winning yet another Big 12 championship. But Saturday Kansas goes to Oklahoma and is expected to be without Alexander, fellow forward Perry Ellis (sprained knee) and possibly guard Wayne Selden (ankle).
Before he was sidelined by the NCAA issue, Alexander's playing time had plummeted in recent weeks. He played fewer than 20 minutes in seven of his last nine games, bottoming out a total of 27 minutes played in three games against West Virginia, TCU and Kansas State Feb. 16-23. Alexander scored just 28 points in the month of February.
@wissoxfan83 Apology not needed as most of us board rats understand. Shoot, I even watched a part of Wisc-Minn tonite. They are impressive and I also thiink they could take out Kensucky.
In this game of NBA business, the biggest loser is the Universities. What I can't understand is why NCAA is not doing anything to prevent the universities from getting hurt since it is NCAA and not a NBA subsidiary.
Anybody could see that: Kids from limited resources families + Great Basketball Potential + Scheming Agents = Troubles for Universities. There is hardly any fight or defense that the universities can put up.
Therefore, for the sake of College Basketball, just let those who think they can cut it at the NBA go directly from high schools.
I have trouble thinking of an agent that thinks Cliff is ready for the NBA...
I'm afraid you maybe right. I was so hoping it was just an education thing. Those things can usually be worked out, but receiving benefits from agents and the like can be a death sentence for a college career. Hope the NCAA doesn't try to drag KU into this.
@JayHawkFanToo They have nothing to lose, cast the net wide and hope there is a big catch inside. They don't care. Afterall, those "impermissible" stuff is really small feats for them. And, they may have shoe companies money.
I seriously doubt shoe companies would get involved in something shady, Zero upside and too much risk of bad publicity that could cost them contracts with top programs.
@JayHawkFanToo You are right. Anyway, I think we should move on. We moved on without Embiid. We can move on without Cliff. I just feel sorry for the young man.
@JayHawkFanToo maybe it was before we figured he needed more time? His parents could have returned stuff, or money, backed out knowing he wasn't ready. Then agent could have turned them in? Just guessing!
@Shanghai_RCJH we didn't move very far w/out Embiid!
Hard to tell. The good thing, if you can call it that, is that it appears that it does not involve the program and Coach Self acted immediately upon hearing from the NCAA.
@JayHawkFanToo can't anything be done about the sleaze ball agents? No rules they have to live by?
@Crimsonorblue22 This is what troubles me. NCAA is not protecting its member schools. NCAA only punishes its member schools for something that they have no weapon against. It is ridiculous!
@Crimsonorblue22 And, if I may add, why does NCAA feels like a Proxy to NBA (they are less when it comes to Football and Baseball).
Sources: NCAA investigating whether family of Kansas' Cliff Alexander received impermissible benefits
By Pat Forde
3 hours ago
Yahoo Sports
In fact, this nonsense has got to stop. I would like to see KU and Bill Self sign a kid and then invite the parents to a half day or all day event with various representatives.
I'd like to see Sean Zenger, our NCAA in house lawyers, Bill Self, and a few players (past or present) provide some education on what to expect and how to protect their son's reputation. They need to educate these parents and families.
I'll say again, again, and again...When will these recruits, players, and families understand this is not about them. They are jeopardizing way too much. STOP, damn it and leave it alone and tell the agents to talk to your coach. I do think when the player signs a scholarship, it's a bit like a contract. When these agents are caught soliciting these young players, they need to be prosecuted for actually violating the university's scholarship agreement with the player and his parents/guardian/s.
These agents have the top programs on their radars and they are chasing these players. It's pure and simple marketing at it's lowest. They might as well be used car salesmen.
Lastly, you can't tell me Cliff Alexander or a family member is the only D1 top recruit that has allegedly taken 'impermissible benefits' from an agent. I guarantee you dook, unc, uk, zona, and likely many others have at least one player that is doing the same thing. Why is it that Cliff gets caught or is found violating this rule? It's insane.
Once a high school senior is deemed eligible to receive an athletic scholarship for their participation on a sports team, they must then follow a number of explicit steps in order to participate at the collegiate level. In particular, the NCAA mandates that they sign a National College Letter of Intent (NLI), which is effectively an agreement that binds the student-athlete to institution in which they have chosen to enroll.[1]
This is worth a review and notice what Auburn said toward the end of the article. Newton played and never sat out.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5765214 ↗
http://sportslaw.uslegal.com/sports-agents-and-contracts/ncaa-sports-contracts-and-amateurism/ ↗
Two issues I have with the Cliff situation and some of this goes back to how much of a Joke the NCAA truly is.
You have no governing of Agents, you know they exist and have an influence especially this time of year. Why are Agents allowed to roam free without punishment. They know what they are doing, its not like its public knowledge when they "sneak" around to gain access to pay days. Your never going to hear a Agent tweet " meeting with Cliff Alexander about gaining his services for the NBA". No, it's an allegation after the fact of whatever has happened and now becomes Cliff's fault. How the heck ( I will refrain from using profanity) does that become the players fault if he has no knowledge of the fact. That part is not known yet and will probably play a part in any punishment he receives.
The other issue I have is Cliff's family. Seriously you couldn't wait a month if in fact they did take some benefit. You weren't born yesterday, you know that if you take something from an Agent while he's still playing College ball that this is going to become an issue. How dumb can you be. I'm totally shocked that they could be this uneducated into this. Again I'm just speculating that they took something, and if it comes back that they didn't then this becomes an even bigger joke on the NCAA's long list of failed governance. It's truly sad that the Athlete will suffer in a present so that you can gain something in the future.
Rant over, but this brings up valid points that don't get addressed often..
I guess the speculations made earlier this week were correct. Maybe Cliff can claim ignorance to his families indiscretion like Cam. What worries me is the article that talks about his HS coach noticing something was off a week prior after TCU game. Makes me nervous that Cliff knew about it at that point but didn't report it since he still played in KsU game? Hopefully something else was up during TCU game, girl problems, homework, poor play...
I've given this Pat Forde write-up fifteen minutes of serious thought, and here is what I deduce: Quite possibly an agent slipped up to the back door wearing an Illinois cap.
Still seems like a lot of speculation from multiple yet unnamed Yahoo sources.
I think we are all on the same page here. Some of these agents are sleaze-balls of the worst kind. I would think the NBA & NFL commissioners could put in a death penalty clause-that any agent caught talking/giving goodies to an athlete or his family while they are playing for a school will no longer be able to represent ANY athlete with the NBA or NFL.
Pat Forde is a huge MU homer and hates KU. When a survey was made a couple of years ago among analysts about the best college basketball venue, AFH was in the top 2-3 in every ballot except one and finished (as expected) as the #1 venue. Pat Forde did not have AFH even in his top 10...if you can believe that....this is not just ignorance, it is unfiltered hatred for KU, totally unprofessional behavior, and probably one of the reason he is no longer with ESPN. I would take any thing he writes about KU with a boulder of salt.
The biggest loser here is always the player and their family.
Whose reputation and character get questioned?
Who has to produce proof of how they have afforded basically anything of value that they own?
Whose intelligence and financial situation are questioned and examined?
The university doesn't go through that. The coach doesn't go through that. That's purely on the player and their family.
I am getting really tired of the NCAA doing this. I have seen what it does to people. It's extremely embarrassing.
Think about this for a moment. Imagine that you had a son or daughter that was an elite level recruit. They get a scholarship to go to a D1 school, then the NCAA opens an investigation about "improper benefits." Remember, improper benefits could be something as small as a couple hundred bucks. So they ask your child where they got the money for their PS4 or XBox. They ask your son how they paid for prom as a senior. They ask you how you afford your mortgage, or how you afford your car. They look into your tax records. They look at credit card statements, etc. It's like getting audited, but even worse. All so your child can accept an athletic scholarship. The media leaks information about you and your family - things like "NCAA questioning how top athlete's family acquired vehicle" or "HS transcript of top recruit being examined."
All of that results in people questioning the character of the athlete - they get labeled a cheater - or their parents - looking for a handout, etc.
It really frustrates me.
His hs coach noticed a change in Cliff during a visit in Feb. Maybe, and I'm going to be on Cliff's side on this, but maybe Cliff found out somebody in the family had gotten involved with an agent and that was what was bothering him. Cliff then informed either HCBS or the NCAA. I know HCBS has said he doesn't know what it's all about, but that could be just complying with the NCAA asking for some time while they look into it. Like I said, that's just my opinion and I'm standing by Cliff on this.
The delay apparently is caused by the fact that Cliff's Lawyer has not let him answer questions from the NCAA.
http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/03/06/ncaa-investigation-kansas-cliff-alexander ↗
The NCAA cannot legally compel anyone to cooperate in an investigation or even answer simple questions; cooperation is 100% voluntary. However, the NCAA can withhold clearing the player and effectively preventing him from playing. It looks like Cliff's family is not cooperating and hence the NCAA will not clear him to play, so his career at KU might be effectively over. I have a bad feeling about the attorney in question. IMHO, he is saying all the wrong things, maybe its is the legally correct way to proceed, but to the lay observer it sure looks like he is hiding something.
Here is a video of Arthur McAfee, the attorney; I am not sure I have ever seen a video of an attorney introducing himself in YouTube, via interview outdoors. Every interview with an attorney I have seen before has always been in an nice office or conference room setting.
[link text](
@JayHawkFanToo Maybe his office is being renovated and all he could find is a lawn chair outside. Don't want to offend anyone on here who may be of the law profession, but imho the only things lower than a lawyer are the bottom feeders in the ocean and since we haven't been into the deepest trenches of the oceans that may be open to debate.
Excellent point, except it is probably not Cliff not doing the talking but a family member, but the end result is the same.
@Crimsonorblue22 We don't know, do we. All we can do is opine.
@wissoxfan83 What? Hold on, you're a badger fan? You heretic!
Maybe we need to sign a loyalty oath or something around here.
Just kidding! I grew up in Illinois too and didn't know or care that there were other conferences besides the Big 10 until I went to college in Big 8 eight territory. And, as a recovering Cubs fan, I can forgive your apparent poor choice in white sox fan-ness, @wissoxfan83, but please, please, please tell me you're not a packer fan.
@JayhawkRock78 said:
I think we are all on the same page here. Some of these agents are sleaze-balls of the worst kind. I would think the NBA & NFL commissioners could put in a death penalty clause-that any agent caught talking/giving goodies to an athlete or his family while they are playing for a school will no longer be able to represent ANY athlete with the NBA or NFL.
Punishing the agents/money men is exactly how the NCAA stops this. The big problem with that though is they (NCAA) need the NBA and NFL to back them on this and enforce the rule. Unfortunately neither seem too worried about it because it doesn't really affect them.
By banning any agent, agency, PR group, whoever, or whatever loop hole company that these sleaze balls work for from doing business with the professional leagues, it would deter a lot of this from happening. Maybe the families aren't sure what's right and wrong but you can damn well bet those that are forking over the cash know exactly what they're doing!
@JayHawkFanToo didn't the article say Cliff wasn't talking?
Just maybe, crazy thought, Cliff turned his dad or mom info in to self?? Maybe that's what was weighing on him(his hs coach)
Guess I can repost what I had above... except change the gender....
"Says??? The family attorney?
I am skeptical about sources like that. They don't have access to any privy info from the NCAA. From sources you can trust (like KU) they would never leak out news ahead of the NCAA.
Hate to be Negative Ned on this one... but I'm not getting my hopes up, especially on a timely resolution. Seems "timely" would be more like the middle of March."
The rumor leak was from McAfee.... he is doing what all civil litigators do... establish damages.
Cliff will not be playing tomorrow. Unlikely he will be cleared for March. Possible, but unlikely.
Its always tough to talk about your "other" sports teams, and we should respect our fellow Hawk's views here. You never know where someone grew up, or if someone's parent is an alum from some other school. And as much as I have blasted on 'hostile' ksu fans (as seen on tv) from afar, I try to apologize to any house-divided ku households.
I DO hope Wisc can beat KY, but then for sinister reasons, maybe I want to see KY run the table, because they'll never top that. And even better, maybe the ncaa looks into KY hard, and starts to make moves restoring 'competetive balance'? Maybe thats a pipe dream.
One thing, if we had a 2AD rule, and Embiid was still here, Cliff would be at Illini, and KU would be a 1-seed, battling with KY and Duke/Okafor.
I also dont like the idea of blatantly paying college players...it all in how that's executed: come up with some type of additional "scholarship" or player grant, then maybe it sounds more palatable...& it gets better if they use some TV pkg money to make such a grant equal for all Div1 programs (probably wont happen).
Maybe most logical is some sort of formula to awarding an athletic-ranking scholarship, based on how good a ranking a h.s. blue chip recruit is. Kind of analagous to if you blow away your ACT or SAT, you can get a full ride academic scholly...so why not if you've outcompeted & outexcelled your fellow highschoolers in your sport?
@DanR Don't worry about @wissoxfan83 . As a life long (almost 60 years) Cub fan myself, you've got a friend.
@brooksmd @wissoxfan83 Well, nothing brings cubs and white sox fans together better than mutual hatred for those stinkin' cheeseheads! Kumbaya, my friends. RCJH / Go Bears!
@ralster I hope uK gets caught at something. I just think they cleaned their laundry the minute a former NCAA investigative member took a position with uK's AD.
If you read the announcement "...the hiring doesn't signal any brewing compliance trouble for the Cats..." I'll give them credit, this was a brilliant move by uK. She can clean their dirty laundry at uK and with the NCAA investigative committee. They won't get caught at all folks. This is so obvious it's sick, but brilliant for uK.
@truehawk93 Wow! 100 mil plus for athletic dept budget for one year & 22mil alone for the 2014 BB budget ?!! That sure covered Cals $3200 a night junket to Paradise Island OK. Small cities have much smaller budgets than UK BB. That is just outrageous. How many compliance czars do they need? Maybe one each for Cal & Strickland? WWW may have a tail 365 1/2 days a year !!
Just a guess here, but with each passing day I become more resigned to belief that Cliff has played his last game as a Jayhawk.
If proven that impermissible benefits were received by a family member and that Cliff was aware of it, his college career is done.
With Cliff's attorney purportedly preventing the proceedings from moving forward by not allowing the NCAA to sit down with Cliff, he is effectively arriving at the same outcome without an admission of guilt on Cliff's part.
Thus - just as the attorney indicated in his first press release - minimizing any fallout.
If the claims were frivolous, and given that time is of the essence at this late juncture of the season, the attorney should have been expediting the matter so that Cliff could have an opportunity to either improve his draft stock by playing and/or keeping the door open for him to return next season if his performance wasn't indicative of a first round draft choice.
Regardless of the outcome, I hope the Jayhawk faithful keep their arm around Cliff. Once a Jayhawk, always a Jayhawk. FOE. Just unfortunate that a family member has presumably put Cliff in this situation.
Keep your head up, Big Fella.
Public filing ties Cliff Alexander parent to financial firm
By Pat Forde and Adrian Wojnarowski
34 minutes ago
Yahoo Sports
A Uniform Commercial Code filed in August 2014 ties the mother of suspended Kansas basketball player Cliff Alexander to a finance company that, according to its website, specializes in loans to professional athletes and agents, Yahoo Sports has learned.
On Aug. 25, 2014, a UCC filing was made in the state of Illinois under the name of Latillia Alexander of Chicago, Cliff Alexander’s mother. The filing is publicly accessible on the Illinois Secretary of State website. The securing party is listed as Ludus Capital of Delray Beach, Fla.
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Cliff Alexander (2) attempts a shot against Oklahoma State. (USAT)
Among the types of financing extended by Ludus Capital, which has offices in Florida and New York: draft loans to potential high draft picks in the NBA and NFL. However, the loans are extended to athletes after they have declared for the draft. In August, Alexander was just starting his freshman year at Kansas.
Loans based on future earning potential can violate NCAA rules for student-athletes.
Registered NBA agents often work in concert with financial firms to secure money for families. These firms also recruit prospects independently.
Alexander missed his third straight game Saturday for what Kansas has called an “NCAA issue.” Multiple sources told Yahoo Sports on Thursday that the issue is a family member who may have received an impermissible benefit.
Alexander’s family took meetings with NBA agents during August, sources said. Discussions with agents for the purpose of gaining information on a player’s market value do not violate NCAA rules, but entering into a written or verbal agreement and receiving compensation is a violation.
Alexander has not yet been interviewed by the NCAA, sources said, though not because of a reluctance by either the school or NCAA investigators. Sources said legal counsel has been retained by the Alexander family and that may be slowing the investigative process.
Alexander will not be reinstated until after an NCAA interview occurs and a decision is made on whether benefits received by his family are impermissible. If it is ruled that a violation occurred, Alexander's eligibility for the remainder of the season could be affected.
Before he was sidelined by the NCAA issue, Alexander's playing time had plummeted in recent weeks. He played fewer than 20 minutes in seven of his last nine games, bottoming out a total of 27 minutes played in three games against West Virginia, TCU and Kansas State from Feb. 16-23. Alexander scored just 28 points in the month of February.
@Crimsonorblue22 One of my boys says the yahoo story is an except from this cbs sstory link: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25097564/report-cliff-alexander-faces-ineligibility-because-mom-took-loan. ↗
Sounds like the loan may have been done last year & yeah, he should be done. How stupid can his family be???
Don't have a clue what the governing precedent is in a situation as such, but it would be a Tremendous, with a capitol effing T, BOMB if we get punished for the sins of the father........Cam Newton & Auburn sure as hell didn't. Of course this is just my opinion. Either way, Regretfully I have to say the most prudent thing to do is just pull the scholarship & be done. Sorry Cliff.
It's funny how we categorize professionals, especially Attorneys & Agents. Here's a fact: I work with incredible attorneys on a regular basis. I work with shady attorneys on a regular basis. It's the people, not the profession.
I've observed the last few days as agents are referred to as sleeze balls. Sure some of them are. And I personally know a lot of them are good ones, too. It's the people, not the profession.
There are incredibly talented scientists and researchers. Some of them do legitimate, bonafide research. Some of them cook their data to gain the support they need. It's the people, not the profession.
Some basketball coaches cheat, and some don't.
Some referees cheat, and some don't.
You will always have the Mark McGuires, Sammy Sosa's, Lance Armstrongs, Jose Conseco's, Sleezeball Attorneys and Sleezeball agents. It's the people, not the profession.
For those who cannot obtain their competitive advantage through ability, work ethic, commitment to continuous improvement, and luck (luck=preparation meeting opportunity) their competitive advantage is relegated to underhanded dealings.
Its the people, not the profession. When you classify an entire group of people because of their profession, you sound uninformed.
@Crimsonorblue22 I know Nothing about this loan company. But agreements and contracts are usually going to be unique to the parties involved. Cliff may have an agreement with Kansas, but the Loan Company has no agreement with Kansas. It is up to Cliff to abide by the agreement he took, not the Loan company. Loans are given on potential frequently.
I remember in 2002 Gooden showed up on Campus with a navigator all of the sudden. And there was a Joke on campus when we saw him buying the brand name fudge pops from the grocery store that we knew he was a goner. Shady things happen. It's up to our own moral compass to do the right thing in life. But as I've said before, I see large sums of money change people (Or reveal them) all too frequently. Greed is a monster.
@Blown
You are correct. There are good and bad, so when I write Sleeze- ball agent, it is specific to the bottom dwellers of the agents, not all of them.
Same with lawyers, etc.
I had a really bad situation with a finance person I was in a partnership
with in a biz deal. We were partners for years-but this crook cooked the books. I swear if I wasn't a church going man,,,,the revenge I wanted and didn't act on-_-
@JayhawkRock78 forgiveness is divine.
@JayhawkRock78 stinks!!
Probably the best thing that got me through it was we had moved 1500 miles away and I was focused on great things my kids were doing at the time. Good thing I left the company, town and got away from it.
I don't get it. Who the hell cares if the parents are borrowing on their kid's future. Kids borrow on their parent's reputation all the time.
Furthermore, if all those sh*tbag corner title and payday loan scum suckers are legal at 300%, how in the hell is getting ANY kind of loan "illegal" in this country? If someone wants to lend you some money... so what??? Please explain any recent situation where finding one dumbass to loan money to another dumbass has ever been prevented in the business world. Do we really have any moral or legal problem with that any more?
F' the NCAA and the NBA too.
@Crimsonorblue22 Well, there are a lot of them--everywhere!
@JayHawkRock78 Good point--the music/entertainment industry is pretty bad about parents whoring out their talented kids. But Cliff was 19 as of 11/16/14, so he wasn't a minor even last August.
Too bad Cliff just didn't keep the Illinois hat on.
@wissoxfan83 Ya know, I've been thinking that very thing tonight after seeing Lucas go for the DD today. This was the Lucas I expected to see this year, & today he showed everyone he does have a skillset to play the high low, set picks & seal, & hit the boards hard. Age wise he's a junior, but this is only his second year of eligibility. He knew, as most all of them did today, that he wasn't going to get that angry, quick hook & played so much more focused & relaxed. Kid's playing hurt too. Hey, I feel bad for Cliff, but I sorta hope he is done. He's not been that much the factor with 10-15 min PT a game, & other guys are busting their asses for minutes too Guys that want to be here for four years too. . Cliff's the talent & I get that, but the first time someone convinces him he'll get picked he's gone anyway. Damn shame too cause he'd be a helluva player with 3-4 years of CBB & is at best a marginal pro now. His family or whoever may have doomed him to a professional life of mediocrity when the ceiling was so much higher.
Sorry. But I havent seen anything out of Cliff that suggests he will ever have an NBA career thus far. He may well get drafted. But kids get drafted every year. And you never hear about alot of them ever again. Right now thats where i see Cliff. Its unfortunate how things have worked out. I mean honestly hes already one of the biggests busts weve had here. And if this season gets vacated over this loan crap..... There will be absolutely no question.
@Blown I called the agents sleaze balls and like @JayhawkRock78 I was referring to the ones that seek out kids and families to take advantage of them and/or don't inform those that seek them out all legality issues.
Cliff should have hired George Lawson, Cam Newton and Johnny Manziel's attorney. If this issue isn't going to be resolved until after Cliff talks with the NCAA and his current counsel is telling him not to talk doesn't that admit guilt? I know it's the NCAA and prior rulings of similar cases doesn't matter but if Cam could prove ignorance to his dad requesting $$ for his commitment (NOT A LOAN, but payment for his commitment!!!) and not be ruled ineligible then why doesn't Cliff? Was he physically at these meetings in August which we make it hard to prove his ignorance to the issue? Wouldn't he have been at KU at the time? And what's the point of not cooperating? What does that solve? Because either way Cliff isn't going to suit up so they should just pull the bandaid off and cooperate.
And you can tell from the interview yesterday that Self feels the same way about how the family attorney is handling the case. He's asking for all parties to cooperate. Well we know the NCAA is cooperating so who does that leave? The loan company? The family?
@Kip_McSmithers I thought Self was doing the best he could not to tongue lash Cliffs family in that interview, too, yet he could barely contain it. It appears there is some wrongdoing and Cliff knows it.
These days, more than one way to shut down the playing time of topnotch recruits. Sic a bevy of slick charismatic loan officers on the kid's family members. SHAZAM! Bye-bye college eligibility.
@DanR - I know it easy to get upset with the NCAA, and rules. But what do you want them to do? If they are to preserve college athletics, there has to be rules just like the one that's hanging up Cliff.
There is nothing "illegal" about his parents taking a loan. It's just against NCAA rules.
Remember, a big issue with many of these supposed "loans" is that they never get paid back, or there are no payments required while the kid is in school.
To condense it down -- if the NCAA doesn't enforce this stuff, parents will simply get cash payments that will influence where the kid goes to school.
The kid is, well, a kid. So his parent or parents are the ultimate authority and influence. What better way to get a kid to go to a school than to give his mom a house or money or a "loan"?
A black and white rule ends the discussion as to whether the money influences a school choice, or whether the money or benefit came from a school, or had connections to the school.
I think Cliff is done here.
@HighEliteMajor Pretty clear he's done with no cooperation as advised. Also the lawyer is now adding more fees to the process & the vicious cycle gets more cyclonic every day forward. Hopefully Cliff can play ball somewhere but his chances in the L may now be slim & none. They don't have the patience for a kid to learn unless it's fast. Cliff doesn't strike me as the valedictorian type. All the while we speculated about injuries, school work, his motor, his drive...it likely was this cloud hanging over his head. But we were correct that there was something bothering him even though we had no clue as to what.
Essentially this "family faupaux" has changed his learning curve to develop the skills for a fruitful professional career. Sad too, not only because he is in such a coveted program, but because he's still a wet behind the ears. 19 year old kid, that really doesn't know crap from apple butter. Certainly hope this is not the beginning of the end for another young career that could have been really great had there been more patience, & maybe prayer involved. Of course this is just one man's opinion.
I don't know enough about the ncaa laws, but could this process be taking so long because Cliff wants to come back next year? Maybe, he didn't know what his parents had done, and he told them awhile back he needed to stay another year in order to get a decent contract. The crap hit the fan and his folks didn't know how to pay the money back. Maybe at this pt. Cliff told coach, probably the only guy he could trust, meanwhile his folks are in deep stuff w/loan co. and their son.
@Crimsonorblue22 thats an excellent theory. I hadnt thought of that. Seems either way that its not gonna be a happy ending. But. I guess we wait and see
@Crimsonorblue22 that a good theory.
Cliff turned 19 in November of 2014, so he would have been a legal adult (18 years old) in August 2014.
As such, his signature would have been necessary to consent to his property being used a collateral for a loan for his parents or to provide guaranty for the indebtedness.
The Yahoo Sports story indicated a UCC financing statement had been filed with the Illinois Secretary of State.
When a lender makes a vehicle loan, its lien is noted on the title. When a lender makes a loan using real estate as collateral, the lender perfects its security interest by filing a mortgage or deed of trust (depending on the state) with the appropriate office (such as a Register of Deeds).
Article 9 of the Uniform Commercial Code outlines how a lender is able to perfect a lien against other property that is not titled or deeded.
A UCC Financing Statement filed with the Secretary of State is a way for a lender to put other potential lenders on notice that a lien has already been filed against assets of the borrower.
Article 9 outlines very specific language that must be used in order to properly perfect the lien.
A lien against a Debtor's interest in contractual benefits could be obtained, although normally a contract (presumably and NBA contract in this case) would need to be in existence or at least imminent (technically can't pledge collateral that doesn't yet exist) . And for that lien claim to be enforceable, its use as collateral would need to be acknowledged by the person who was set to receive those contractual benefits.
At any rate I completed the UCC search on the Illinois Secretary of State web site Latillia Alexander (his Mom) and found an overview of the record, but in order to see the actual document a copy must be ordered from the Secretary's Office.
I did not find results on a search for his father - Clifton Terry.
I also searched for Cliff Alexander and Clifton Alexander, but did not find any results.....although if Cliff is a nickname, his middle name or if Cliff is not the first part of his first name the search criteria would not have found any filings.
Long story, made short.....if Cliff wasn't involved the lender did not have the authority to place a lien on his future earnings.
Mom could sign the loan, but without Cliff's consent or guarantee the lender would not have claim to Cliff's future income stream....and they might not even if he had been involved......and the enforceability of the contract were contested.
So......in an ironic twist - if it was the UCC financing statement that tipped off the NCAA to possible improprieties - in filing a potentially worthless UCC the lender may have compromised their ability to get repaid by impairing Cliff's ability to improve his draft stock,
@SoftballDad2011 Interesting stuff. Thanks for the update. In the information age it's amazing what you can find just with common search tool if you know where to look.
Ok, so we need a new big man. Any recruiting suggestions?
I thought we were after Zimmerman.
I'm not a big fan of the NCAA either. However understand why the NCAA was really created. It's to keep the money schools from cheating in every aspect of the game especially in recruiting.
We can see what getting all the best talent can do to the game, by just looking at UK. Everybody is preaching the greatness that is happening before our eyes. I'm like really, they should win, they have all the talent.
@JayhawkRock78 We're best positioned with Thon Maker and Cheick Diallo. I'd be happy to add either. Ivan Rabb likes Self, but it looks like he's going to spend his collegiate life out west. Same for Zimmerman, for the time being.
This situation with Cliff is just another example of why the NCAA will not be in control of the Power 5 conferences much longer.
The NCAA is outdated, frankly. These rules worked well when there was a threat of corruption in college sports due to gambling influences (there were several point shaving scandals in the 40's and 50's). They were practical when most pro leagues didn't offer anything in the way of large salaries.
Now, however, the rules can't keep up with where the game has gone.
In 1985 the NBA salary cap was $4m. That's less than the veteran's exception is now. Simply put, the NCAA is trying to cage a bear in a litter box. There's just no way to do it.
The NCAA's rules are really best suited for athletes that do not have a future at the highest professional level. There is a reason that the best baseball, hockey, soccer, tennis and golf athletes generally do not play NCAA sports. The truly elite players in those sports go to the pros straight out of high school. Baseball's rules are such that there is more talent often times at the junior college level (where players can leave before graduating) than there is at the D1 level. Most elite soccer players head to Europe or other elite academies. Same in hockey. In tennis and golf, most elite players hook up with elite coaches as teenagers and turn pro while still in high school.
But basketball and football cling to this old model. That model works for non-elite players. It puts elite players in a position where they will always be under intense scrutiny because there is so much financial benefit available if you locate even a below average pro.
Think about it this way. The average commission for a sports agent is between 4% and 10% of the total contract. If you can sign up a guy that can just stay in the league for a while, you stand to earn hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars, over his career.
Deshawn Stevenson went straight to the pros out of high school and had a pretty meh career overall. Never averaged even 12 points a game as a pro. Never went to an all star game or won any major awards. He was just a pro for 13 years. In that time he made nearly $28m. That means his agent made between $1.1m and 2.75m over 13 years. And that's just one client.
DeShawn Stevenson was worth probably more per year to his agent than most of us make annually. That would not have been the case 60 years ago. That wouldn't even have been the case 40 years ago. Honestly, up until the last 20 years or so, that would not have been the case.
And that's for a lower level, non-star player. A guy like Kevin Garnett has made over $300m in his career. Chris Webber made nearly $180m over his 15 year career. If you were his agent, you made at least $7m over the course of his career, if not more. And people knew Chris Webber was going to be a star when he was a freshman in high school.
The NCAA isn't prepared for this. They can't be. You can't serve the interests of the guy that is just playing sports to pay for school and also make sure that the interests of a guy like Chris Webber are protected.
If you knew you could make $7m over the next 15 years by lending someone that really needed the money $50,000 today, would you do it? I would take out a $50,000 loan today so I could lend the money to somebody else. That's not just return on investment - that's basically printing money.
The NCAA can't do it anymore and that has become clear. Within a few years, the big conferences will break away and structure their own rules, knowing that they can prepare the elite players for pro careers. The death of the NCAA is coming, and when it happens, they will be buried in a pile of rules and red tape.
@DoubleDD I love your last point. All year I have been hoping that I am not the only person in the country who thinks that UK winning is not a big deal. Of course they are winning. They have assembled a team with more height and more talent than anyone else. UK winning does not impress me. Not in the least. If they won every game by 25 points I might be impressed.
In all likelihood, if there was a loan it was not recorder via the method you outlined since it applies when there is physical property against which a lien can be issued. This is what lending institutions do when they lend you money to buy a car or a home and basically insures their money will be protected; when you pay out the loan, you get a lien release of quit claim document that you file with the proper government agency that effectively removes the name of the lending institution as a "co-owner" if you will. I will guess the record you found for Cliff's mom is one of this type.
If money was lent based on potential earnings, it was likely a private contract that would not be filed and if it is not repaid, it would be pursued in Civil (not criminal) Court which could order a "garnishment" of future earnings but without a Court order the lender has very little recourse. Most of this type of contracts are risky for the lender since they are based on future earning above a threshold and if he never earns that money the loan probably would go unpaid with little recourse to the lender. This type of loans are structured more along the lines of what in business we call "seed money" or "good will money." You basically invest some money in good faith with the hope that you will be rewarded with a contract later. It is perfectly legal and I do this even with Government agencies, but it is against NCAA regulations. The NCAA has zero legal authority to force compliance or even compel the interested parties to come to the table; all it can do is rule the player ineligible and the school will stop playing him. This is the extent of the NCAA authority since the NCAA is not a government agency (as many think it is) but simply a private association with voluntary membership. Coach Self made it clear that if the Alexander family is unwilling to talk to the NCAA (which they appear to be) they cannot be forced and there is zero chance the issue gets resolved and Cliff is done at KU.
@JayHawkFanToo Yah, knowing absolutely nothing about the politics/procedure involved with this type of stuff, I just feel like Cliff is done dudes.
He hasnt really impressed me at all, I kinda feel like I did with Josh Selby.
@Lulufulu Ironic that you mention Selby. I see them as very similar. If they would have stayed, developed in school, that (in my opinion) would have led to productive NBA careers. Selby left too early. Cliff will be making the same error. He may get 1st round money, but his long term career is what is at risk. We don't know "for sure" of course.
The UCC filing I located listed the same creditor in the yahoo article.
I have been a lender for 20 years.
The method you mention is basically unsecured lending.....no collateral taken. or you could take collateral but choose not to "perfect" the lien, meaning you chose not to file the appropriate documents to put other lenders on notice that you filed the lien.
If a lender goes this path, they risk another creditor gaining the legal right to seize the collateral.....even if that lender loaned money after the first loan.
If the creditor mentioned in the yahoo article filed a UCC it was to perfect is claim in non-titled property - commonly called chattels - a UCC financing statement is used to accomplish this.
A UCC financing statement is nothing more than a public notice to let other potential creditors know that a lien has already been filed against some form of property. This minimizes the risk of a borrower double pledging collateral to different creditors.
Inventory, account receivable, contract rights, non-titled machinery and equipment, general intangibles, tort claims, etc all use this method.
some non-titled consumer goods loans are also perfected this way.......household goods, small watercraft, etc.
If there was a specific contract involved you can also take an assignment of that specific contract which involves additional steps......but in this case, Cliff had no contract to take on assignment on.
READ BETWEEN THE LINES -
This situation has damaged our year, mostly because we don't have a resolution and it doesn't appear it will be resolved anytime soon. It will also damage us in the future!
If any of you caught Self's interview yesterday, he mentioned how frustrated he is because it appears that attorneys have clogged the process. He mentioned that Cliff's family needs to allow an interview with the NCAA to get a quick resolution, perhaps opening the door for Cliff to become eligible for March Madness.
What Self didn't say, and why he is really upset... is that Cliff's status of UNKNOWN has also put our big man recruiting on hold and UNKNOWN. The big men that are coming available have waited because they want to see how school positions shake out. They are looking for certainty.
It appears we may not have certainty for a long, long time.
So what should Kansas do? Throw Cliff under the bus now and announce he won't be offered an annual scholarship next year?
I clearly say YES! We should give this thing perhaps another week or so. Give Cliff's family notice about how their lack of communication with the NCAA is hurting Kansas' future. It is very unlikely Cliff will ever get reinstated for college ball again. But what should we do? Let it go and forget our hopes of recruiting his replacement?
Sorry Cliff... but unless your family starts playing ball with the NCAA now, you should be cut from any hopes of a future scholarship next year.
Self did say... "If we don't hear anything before March Madness, it is unlikely it will be resolved in time for our first exhibition game next fall."
Read between the lines... If we don't have a resolution soon, we know for certain that Cliff won't be back. I hope I'm reading more in this, and that Self will step up and stop the madness on Cliff. Cut his scholarship.
@drgnslayr Slayr, as much as I'd like to see Cliff back next year to benefit both him and Kansas, I believe you're right. Give the family an ultimatum with a time limit and if they don't go for it, bye bye. They want to play their games fine, but not on KU time.
I think also it sounded like Self was saying. If its not resolved so Cliff can play in the tournament this year. Hes just done. I felt that was the message..without actually spelling it out. And perhaps that's somewhat of an ultimatum. But also it could be not wanting the uncertainty in recruiting. He may be saying youre in now. Or youre just out for good. We cant wait on you. Other irons in the fire
@konkeyDong
Believe me I don't do much research compared to many on this site.
Thanks for painting a clearer picture. I don't want to mislead anyone.
@drgnslayr Cliff will just run out the clock, and declare for the draft.
I agree with what you are saying when it applies to tangible items and items such as copyrights and even statements of WIP or receivables can be considered tangible; however, when it comes to intangibles items, such as undefined future earnings, there is nothing really that can be filed since there is not tangible property involved. All of this was extensively discussed at the time that LeBron was graduating from High school and his mother got a big loan and the consensus was that the lenders were taking a big risk because other than the good will of LeBron to repay his mother's loan, there is no assurances that they would get re-paid and they would have to go to civil court and get awarded whatever property the could prove she had, and more importantly, they would have to actually get possession of whatever they get awarded, the last part a tall order. Other than that it is really a personal, unsecured loan, and if Cliff was not part of the agreement, he is under no obligation to repay it. Because of this, the assumption is that Cliff had to be involved for that loan to take place, no lender in his right mind would make a loan without the likely payer of the loan not being involved, which leads me to believe that Cliff had to be involved and likeley he is done at KU.
Sad, sad deal. Dumb dumb situation. Understandable, perhaps, but DUMB from the getgo. The cap situation should have warned Jayhawk fans that trouble was on the wind. I feel for Cliff. He needed two years in the program, probably much more than we needed his slowly developing collegiate game, as it turns out. A healthier and stronger Cliff, spending a second year in Lawrence, most probably would have moved into NBA lottery consideration. In his current predicament, he will be fortunate to be selected somewhere between 15th and 21st in this June's draft. Guaranteed multimillions of dollars most probably have dwindled to a few million, at best, his first five years as a professional. His skills most probably will undergo extensive developmental time in the D League. Franchises will not risk time and millions to cope with future injuries or retarded development. Understandable complexity, I say, because hasty bird-in-hand greed is almost impossible to turn down for the families of many players who live in poverty or near poverty. Without one hell of a bundle of good luck, Cliff will sail off into the sunset as an American Sports Tragedy. Opportunity thwarted and denied. A very tough bullet for Bill Self and Jayhawk fandom to bite.
@brooksmd Yeah,ya gotta give them the news to either step up or step out. I said this very thing a couple of days back. If that contract was consummated on a non-recourse premise, it's not worth the paper it's written on cause Cliff has no future earnings they can garnish. Hell, he or the borrower may die in their sleep tonight. I'm under the impression that some family member hooked Cliff into co-signing on a potential contract & yes he is done if he has. He should not have been compromised by his family. Also making him ineligible to be able continue to work towards receiving this "potential" contract by filing these public documents by the lender, they may have damaged his ability to earn a contract, so they may be essentially screwed too. JMO, but I hope they are. Credit is just waaaaaaay too easy for people to come by. When I was a kid & first married the rule of 78ths was still in effect & all car, trailer, boat, & mobile home financing was recourse-just like the Lizard Lick guys-you don't pay, we come after the property then you. If you bought a house you had to be squeaky clean, have 20% down, & obligate not a dollar more than 25% of your income towards a mortgage-virtuallyA-1credit. My, my, how the American Dream has become a damn sham...
@globaljaybird lizard lick? Should I ask?
@drgnslayr said:
If any of you caught Self's interview yesterday, he mentioned how frustrated he is because it appears that attorneys have clogged the process.
Doesn't help that Cliff is the crown jewel recruit from Snacks. Everything surrounding this is getting more tarnished. I agree with @REHawk that the Karma from the Cap incident is catching up.
The only glimmer I see on the horizon is that the hope that none of these rules apply to the World Games and Cliff might be eligible for that.
@Crimsonorblue22 Certainly you may ask. By all means miss lady-That's a ref to buy here pay here of this day & age-recourse finance. The seller co signs the buyer & gets paid his commission on delivery, of the property exchange & signing of the contract. basically in advance, of the fulfillment. Should the buyer default, the seller is obligated for payment to the lender. So then he must pay back not only his commission which was paid in advance, but also the entire loan he recoursed (co signed) to the lender. Then he retrieves the property if he can & tries to re sell said property, cars, trucks, etc; to recover his loss. That's what recourse is- Mean & nasty when it needs to be. We didn't do it often but back in the 60's & 70's it was a necessary way of life. We repossessed a few through the years, but it was always a major endeavor. Never got shot at, but was cursed many times.
@globaljaybird thx!!!
@Crimsonorblue22 Like the Germans say, Danke' Schönen (Donkey shit) .....................................................................................................................................................LOL !!
If Cliff is ruled ineligible by the NCAA then I would rather we not take him with the team to World Games. My hope is we can fill his scholarship with one of the remaining top bigs that were are currently recruiting. Unfortunately Thon wouldn't be allowed to play for us at WGs so if he commits and we had an open roster spot I would rather it go to a more experienced former big that could help teach our current bigs if their current NBA club would allow it.
@Kip_McSmithers Trob!
Remember back when we were giving nicknames to the players?
After "Goner" Frankamp, we have "Off the" Cliff.
Self has said if Cliff doesn't get cleared for the NCAAs he probably won't get cleared for the first exhibition game either. To me, that's SelfSpeak for "do what it takes to play in the NCAAs or move on down the road."
Now he adds "We're basically moving on." Translation: because Cliff is.
Personally, I think the lawyer hired by the family may be right: damage control. If there is a real problem, why help the NCAA prove it? Stonewall and prevent NCAA sanctions.
Self must give lip service to full cooperation with the NCAA, whether he means it or not. I think he does, both on principle and as someone who doesn't give up easily.
@globaljaybird
I thought is was "donkey chains"
@globaljaybird
You and I have a few things in common. Never got shot at but three times was bull rushed. I guess they expected me to run? Each time I just stood there letting them have the first shot and each time they stopped a pace away and just talked.
"Personally, I think the lawyer hired by the family may be right: damage control. If there is a real problem, why help the NCAA prove it? Stonewall and prevent NCAA sanctions."
The only damage possible for Cliff is to lose his eligibility. Whether they help the NCAA or not, he won't become eligible again until they have answers. His eligibility right now isn't being controlled by the NCAA, it is with Kansas. Kansas pulled him off the team. Kansas already stated he won't get back on the team without a ruling from the NCAA. The ruling won't come without cooperation. So, essentially, Cliff is done without cooperation. The damage is done now because they won't cooperate.
Self is merely stating that the damage will be permanent if he doesn't regain eligible status for March Madness. He has, essentially, laid down a deadline.
Cliff's family stepping up now would be more of a gesture for the team. To give them resolution before the tourney. I like what Self said about their mistake last year with JoJo in March.... planning for his return. This time, they've moved on and if, by chance, Cliff comes available then he'll just be inserted as "an extra cookie."
This is a sticky situation. I'm glad we have Self. He's playing it right, not only tactically, but with his comments to the press.
Self knows he's not getting back Cliff. He's seen the reports, he's probably got first hand knowledge of who's cooperating and who's not and so he's come out with the statement how they can plan for the tournament differently knowing he's not apart of the plan. JoJo must have really had a timeline they thought he could hit and missed it, and with the early exit made it look even worse.
I'm okay with not having him honestly. At least we can roll with a 3rd year Soph. & and 4th year Junior. Cliff might have a talent edge on both but at this point of the season talent doesn't always win. Hunter & Lucas give effort all the time and that's something Cliff hadn't learned consistently.
What bothers me even more about this whole situation is it took place before the season even began. I don't buy the ignorance in this day and age that the whole Alexander family/ Cliff included didn't know that meeting an agent would raise red flags. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that you can be deemed ineligible for taking a bagel from someone else. So becoming public record for getting a loan from a agent firm or whatever it is they are being investigated for is basically going to end your eligibility for that year. They all know what they got involved with. It's a dumb NCAA rule but a rule until its changed.
"Cliff included didn't know that meeting an agent would raise red flags"
Self covered this in his interview. He said all of these guys meet agents, handlers, and other people with an angle. The key is whether or not they take a benefit, and to know what a benefit is.
The NCAA isn't going to investigate because Cliff or his family met with an agent. But if there was a benefit distributed in any form, or a contract signed then it becomes a problem, warranting an investigation and decision... But Cliff should have known and he should have instructed his family not to do anything without vetting it through Self and Kansas.
Your right they should have known. They should have known if they did take a benefit that this would affect everything. I'm troubled by the whole thing to understand exactly why.
" I'm okay with not having him honestly. At least we can roll with a 3rd year Soph. & and 4th year Junior. Cliff might have a talent edge on both but at this point of the season talent doesn't always win. Hunter & Lucas give effort all the time and that's something Cliff hadn't learned consistently."
Me too. These 2 guys play their butts of every time out & Cliff, well, who knows? I cant help but remember how Cole had that monster game in 08 vs NC & Hansborough. One of these guys gets the right matchup in the dance & history could repeat itself-not likely, but teams have not seen a lot of these guys & a short time to prepare could get someone torched. Just hope it's not us. If Ellis comes back strong, we could make a run. If not, well...Plus with recruiting right after the season this allows far more advantage to HCBS knowing full well that Cliff is done.
Kansas would have to be crazy to play Cliff knowing there is an investigation afoot; no team in his right mind would. What worries me is that by the time KU was informed of the investigation, the family had already retained and attorney which probably does not come cheap and more likely is being paid by the same agent that made the "alleged" loan in the first place.
If the family had nothing to hide or even if they were led astray by an unscrupulous agent, IMHO, they would have contacted KU immediately and would have been agreeable to meet with the NCAA; the fact that neither happened would appear to indicate that they knew all along that what they were doing was not "kosher" but the allure of a new car, or whatever is they got, was more important than Cliff's future. If there is one player that could have used a second year in college is Cliff; I just don't see him as a lottery pick and based on what I have seen throughout the season, late first round might be the most optimistic outlook, although I believe he night be now in second round/Development/League/China territory. The place where he could have showcased his talent and impressed scouts (NCAA Tournament) seems now like a highly unlikely scenario.
@drgnslayr Suppose Cliff is ineligible because of what happened in August. Why would he be ineligible starting now? Why wouldn't he be ineligible starting in August, especially if he knew of, or was a party to, whatever was done?
Derrick Rose was declared ineligible retroactively and Memphis had its season vacated.
Why couldn't this happen to KU? Isn't there a chance, however slight, that our Conference title streak might be in danger?
If that is the case, there is more at stake than Cliff's eligibility going forward, and the lawyer could be doing our past a favor by stonewalling.
The clear implication was that Memphis knew Rose was ineligible early on but played him anyway. KU, on the other hand, did the right thing and as soon as they found out about a potential issue he did no play anymore. TTBOMK, no one at KU knew about what was happening in Chicago, so it would be unrealistic to expect a school to act on information it did not have or even suspected.
I will guess that KU attorneys are busy at work protecting the interests of the program.
@JayHawkFanToo said:
The clear implication was that Memphis knew Rose was ineligible early on but played him anyway.
Ah, didn't know that. Thanks.
@globaljaybird Sweet memories you brought back of Cole taking it to Hansborough. The look on Hansborough's face was priceless. Like who is this guy and doesn't he know who I am?
Jayhawkfantoo has the correct reply. Memphis knew about Rose and not only played him, but participated in the cover up.
I'm of the opinion that Kansas will not go down for this. They reacted properly IMMEDIATELY upon hearing from the NCAA and has already gone on the record as having no prior knowledge. Unless that is a lie, they shouldn't be punished.
A great "ace in the hole" for Kansas is the fact that we have perhaps the very best compliance program in the country. If my memory serves me right, our program is a model program that has received a lot of praise by the NCAA. That means they have also done a good job in communicating the rules and what is proper and improper behavior to recruits and players. And of course, this is all documented to a high legal standard.
Kansas does more than talk lip service about compliance.
Even with all of that in place, problems can still arise, as we see here.
Personally.... I'm not losing sleep over this story. I've already put it to bed that Cliff is done with Kansas, and Kansas will retain #11... and in one more year, will bump that to #12!
My only concern is recruiting another post player to replace Cliff.
RCJH!
@Crimsonorblue22 Had to go over to youtube and relive that.
@JayhawkRock78 that's really cool you were there!!
@JayhawkRock78 I think a few people felt the same.
If I were ever subject to an NCAA investigation, I would not cooperate, either.
All you have to know about the NCAA and credibility is this:
The NCAA restored Penn State's record books of wins previously vacated during the time when a football coach on staff was committing criminal acts at the university and taking advantage of young children under the auspices of charity and his role at the university.
The NCAA has deleted all mentions of Michigan basketball and the Final Fours achieved by the "Fab Five" because some of those players may have accepted "impermissible benefits."
So, just for anyone keeping track at home
Criminal Acts by an Assistant Coach = OK, wins restored to program.
Accepting Money by Athletes = Terrible, all wins and accomplishments deleted from the record books.
Seems someone may have their priorities mixed up.
@justanotherfan Swish !!
@DanR Dan, +100 on your sentiment, and my thoughts exactly. But, when the dumbassess work for financial institutions (FannieMae, FreddieMac, & big banks), and the govt has to do a stupid federal bailout...its a major breakdown. First we all pay with our hard-earned tax dollars, as if there aren't enough governmental black holes for our tax $ to disappear into...(and they always want more, it seems). Second, how many of the dumbass executives actually suffered consequences? No, they actually got "let go" with 6-figure parachute clauses. Ya, I'd jump out of a perfectly good aer-o-plane with that kind of parachute. Thirdly, the pure business philosophy of survival of the fittest, which usually weeds out bad biz, simply could not be allowed to happen with the bank bailouts, due to catastrophic financial repercussions. "Internal" checks/balances, like proper loan qualifications, failed, and a federal bailout simply has put major egg on the face of big-banking.
I guess my point is about all-around responsibility vs irresponsibility, at all levels. Yes, to agree with another poster...that IS too many dumbasses. Sadder still, is the amt of dumbasses grows faster than the amt of intelligent people.
Finally, people don't deserve anything they didn't earn. Cliff didn't earn anything yet. He simply hasn't proved that he has against college competition. Jalil Okafor HAS. Embiid DID. Now there is no reason Cliff cannot be a better player than Tyler Hansbrough was, or equal to Thomas Robinson...but he's got to show it. Bring it. Consistency. But I'll cut him a break, as he is a learning frosh in Self's system. And mommy may not have told him what she did in August'14. Impatience-killed-the-cat, or in this case, a Jayhawk. Cliff, I feel for ya, brother.
Sadder still, is the amt of dumbasses grows faster than the amt of intelligent people.
And faster than the amount of money they can extract from taxpayers so they go spending money they don't have and that our grandchildren will be paying. I say cut government in half and the only difference we will see is little more money in our wallets and a whole lot of fat-assed federal workers having to do actual work for a living. I work with the Federal government and I know if it is cut in half we would not be able to tell the difference. While at it, cut the Senate term to 1-6 year term and the Congress to 3- 2 year terms and get back to having citizen legislators and not professional politicians.
Stepping down from the soap box. Apologies if any one was offended by my comments.
@JayHawkFanToo Granted this is a basketball and sports forum, not really a politics forum. But my two cents... professional politicians are just killing this country. Citizen legislators with a true sense of what the real needs of people in this country are, instead of special interests and their own pocket books, etc. Its lame. Im so cynical in regards to ALL politicians not just the right or left. Everyone. They can all go suck a you know what honker
With house races costing upwards o $10M and senate races 5 times that, the averages congressman has to raise at least $300k per moth in office; no wonder they don't have time to do actual work. Sorry about the politics; last post on the subject and now back to sports...:)
Cliff Alexander’s one-and-done plan goes awry at Kansas
BY RUSTIN DODDTHE WICHITA EAGLE
03/11/2015 9:43 PM 03/11/2015 9:43 PM
KU's Cliff Alexander dunks over UNLV's Goodluck Okonoboh on Jan. 24 at Allen Fieldhouse. Alexander’s future at Kansas remains in doubt as the NCAA investigates potential impermissible benefits received by his family through a third party. RICH SUGG KANSAS CITY STAR
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On a chilly early morning in the North Lawndale neighborhood of Chicago, a high school basketball player stood near the sidewalk and waited for his coach.
Cliff Alexander waited here most days amid the heartbreak that had enveloped this strip of hollowed out streets on the west side of Chicago. He was 6 feet 8, with broad shoulders that could barely be confined by his favorite T-shirts, and in the right angle and lighting, Alexander could pass for a 30-year-old man. But on this morning he was still just a teenager who required a ride to school.
A few minutes later, Mike Oliver, the basketball coach at Curie High, steered his car toward the curb. Together, they made the commute 25 minutes south to the school, located in the Archer Heights neighborhood near Midway Airport.
Oliver, a staple in the Chicago basketball scene, had driven Alexander to high school for most of his four years, and he had also overseen a remarkable transformation. Four years earlier, Alexander had never played a minute of organized basketball. By spring 2014, he was headed to a blue blood college program at Kansas, and then, if everything went right, the NBA.
“One and done,” Alexander said, on the day he picked a KU hat off a table and signed with the Jayhawks. “Then (I’ll) come back and get my degree.”
By most any definition, Alexander earning a college scholarship was a success story. His father, also a former Chicago prep standout, had spent part of Alexander’s childhood behind bars. His mother, Latillia Alexander, has scrapped to support a household full of children. The oldest child in a family of seven kids, Alexander was headed to an idyllic college campus to play for a future Hall of Fame coach.
“I can’t wait to get to Kansas,” Alexander said last spring, standing in a practice gym in Chicago.
Nearly one year later, that optimism has all but faded away in a frustrating freshman year. Alexander sits in limbo, sidelined as the NCAA investigates potential impermissible benefits received by his family through a third party. His NBA stock has taken a sharp decline. His play has been defined by uneven performances, inconsistent effort and an awkward transition to the physicality of the college game.
“He just caught it and mauled people in high school,” KU coach Bill Self says, “and you can’t do that obviously at this level.”
As the days pass, the likelihood increases that Alexander will never play for Kansas again. The NCAA investigation has slowed to a crawl as the Alexander family remains quiet. Alexander has yet to be interviewed by NCAA investigators. Alexander may be presented with limited options.
Last year, those close to Alexander envisioned a one-year stop at Kansas and a place on the stage at the NBA Draft. Now Alexander could be forced to head to NBA just as his stock has dipped, a decision that, based on the NBA’s strict rookie salary scale, could cost him millions.
If the Alexander family is concerned about the future, they have given no public indication. When reached on Tuesday afternoon, an attorney representing the family in the NCAA investigation declined to comment on the status of the case.
“I don’t have any update for you,” said Arthur McAfee, a Washington D.C.-based attorney. “Our side is doing just fine.”
▪ ▪ ▪
On an afternoon in January, Clifton Terry leaned back against a bleacher inside Allen Fieldhouse and smiled.
It was Jan. 31, just a few minutes after Kansas’ 68-57 victory over Kansas State. It was a good day, Terry said, but he couldn’t help but be a little discouraged. Alexander had gone scoreless while playing 19 minutes, and after averaging 14 points in two games just two weeks earlier, his up-and-down season had continued.
“You always want your kid to play better,” Terry said.
As Terry said this, he stood at his normal perch, wearing his usual pair of yellow-tinted sunglasses while sitting the top row of the family section above the visitor’s bench. During Alexander’s freshman season, Terry had become a constant at Kansas games — both at home and on the road.
“You only get one chance to watch your son play college basketball,” he said in January.
A former standout at John Robeson High in Chicago, the 6-foot-7 Terry had a brief career at Kennedy-King Community College before declaring for the NBA Draft in 2001. He went undrafted, and spent part of Alexander’s childhood in an Illinois prison, according to public records. But he returned as Alexander finished up at Curie.
This year, Terry been there for all the flashes of promise and moments of consistency. Before he was sidelined by the NCAA investigation, Alexander was averaging 7.1 points and 5.3 rebounds per game. He had moments where he appeared poised for a breakout, including a 15-point, nine-bound performance at Texas. But he scored in double figures just once in nine games before being forced to the sideline.
“This is all different for high school kids,” said KU assistant coach Norm Roberts, who works with the Jayhawks’ big men in practice. “People scout you. They’re going to take away what you do well. If they know that you are a right-hand jump hook guy, that would mean teams will take that away.
“Now you’ve got to come up with a counter move, or you’re not going to score.”
Both Roberts and Self say Alexander’s development was stunted by a foot injury last summer that kept him out for most of the offseason. He came to Kansas raw, an unfinished product that needed to refine his low-post game and learn how to use angles and footwork to score against tall players. The injury slowed the process.
“These are all things he’s learning,” Roberts said. “Because he didn’t have to go against the big bodies.”
▪ ▪ ▪
On Wednesday afternoon inside the Sprint Center, Self stood outside the Kansas locker room and provided his latest update on Alexander’s status: “No new news, whatsoever.”
It’s become a common refrain.
The details in the case remain elusive. A Uniform Commercial Code filing in the state of Illinois, filed last August, has connected Alexander’s mother, Latillia, to a Ludus Capital, a Florida financial firm that offers loans to professional athletes and agents — a connection first reported by Yahoo! Sports. But for now, it remains unclear whether the filing involved a loan based on Alexander’s future earning potential.
For now, the NCAA has yet to interview Alexander — though sources familiar with investigation told The Star on Wednesday that there was no reluctance on the Kansas side for Alexander to speak.
“Whatever happens, we’ll deal with it,” Self said last Saturday while expressing in the lack of cooperation from all sides in the investigation.
If Alexander winds up in the NBA Draft, multiple NBA scouts interviewed for this story said Alexander would still have a chance to be drafted in the first round. But one scout suggested that Alexander would have a chance to be drafted significantly higher if he returned.
For now, Kansas waits, Alexander sits, and Self prepares for a postseason without a key big man. In the end, Alexander may just meet his goal: He may be one and done.
Reach Rustin Dodd at rdodd@wichitaeagle.com. Follow him on Twitter: @rustindodd.
TCU VS. NO. 9 KANSAS
When: about 2 p.m. Thursday
Where: Sprint Center, Kansas City, Mo.
Records: TCU 18-14, KU 24-7
Radio: KFH, 1240-AM, 98.7-FM
Read more here: http://www.kansas.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article13667912.html#storylink=cpy ↗
KUHawkZone retweeted
Brian Hamilton @BrianHamiltonSI · 1m1 minute ago
Cliff Alexander attorney: NCAA says it won't interview #Kansas forward 'til they receive “additional documents” that Alexander doesn’t have.
Dana O'Neil retweeted
Pat Forde @YahooForde · 12m12 minutes ago
Statement from atty Paul Stafford, counsel for Cliff Alexander: says Cliff is ready, willing and able to be interviewed by NCAA and has ...
@RockChalkinTexas soooo, you think the parents won't give up documents or loan co.?
@Crimsonorblue22 Kinda sounds like it. NCAA must be looking for anything like a written "agreement" that wasn't recorded but was the basis for the loan.
Cliff Waiting To Be Interviewed ↗
Sounds like the lawyer is playing the PR game -- I'm sure the records he says Cliff doesn't have access/control of are his parents' records.
If that is correct, then this is on Cliff's camp, not the NCAA -- and I said "if."
@HighEliteMajor can Cliff get his own attorney against his parents? Might be a dumb question!
If the people not providing the info are in Chicago which is likely, then are those people avenging Cliff for breaking Chicago's heart by his signing day hat trick? Could be. Chicago ways are unique to the world.
I guess he did get his own attorney. Someone is advising him. He could and may go against his parents!
Meh. I'm done with the Cliff drama. He was barely contributing when he was in the rotation. Very little growth over the year compared to Oubre and Devonte. He's done, he's toast, and he was a complete waste of a scholarship and a year's effort by the coaching staff. The legal wrangling just makes me more nauseous about the entire situation.
I'm cheering for the team we have at this point.
Thursday legal spin seems to indicate that Cliff has presented everything in his possession to the NCAA. Outside documents still not available to NCAA (which won't sit down with Cliff until those documents are rendered). Legal counsel looks to be bullying into position for future lawsuit(s) on Cliff's behalf. Counsel perhaps hopeful that NCAA will continue to stonewall? If so, most probably will turn into a time- extended multi-million dollar lawsuit vs. NCAA and maybe the agent/lending company. KU Hoops left in passive neutered position of tangential onlooker.