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so no one starting a Perry Ellis Thread? guess I will
Apr 09, 2015 12:48 PM #1

some notable quotes from Bedore's recent article on KU sports.com

"Ellis, who averaged 13.8 points and 6.9 boards last season, has been mentioned as a possible second-round pick. None of the mock drafts have yet placed him in the first round. ESPN’s Chad Ford does not have him among his top-100 draft prospects."

"Ellis’ mom, Fonda, told the J-W on Wednesday, “Now that Perry has the report back (from NBA) and met with coach Self, we plan to discuss things this weekend as a family. Not sure if he will know by Monday or not but we have a plan in place to at least talk about it.”

I was always under the impression that Perry was a very good student and had always wanted to play for KU being a Kansas kid... thus has an incentive to stay and graduate - but I am naive

any thoughts from some board heavys on what is the most likely outcome?

Apr 09, 2015 01:04 PM #2

@Bosthawk

If you are from an adidas school trying to get into an NBA dominated by Nike player rosters and Nike coaches and increasing numbers of Nike front office leans, unless you are a can't miss lottery pick, get your degree.

An adidas player appears to have a smaller professional network to plug into in the pros. The adidas network APPEARS so weak in the NBA that even the great once in a decade Andrew Wiggins get dumped in Minnesota.

Most of KU's players appear to be struggling in the NBA, because they are in the wrong professional network to keep getting work.

Apr 09, 2015 01:19 PM #3

@Bosthawk

I'm not a board "heavyweight" by any stretch, but my feeling is that Perry is a smart kid and he has a good family behind him and they're exhibiting that intelligence and due diligence by checking out all their options. I, too, get the sense that Perry wants to play his senior year, but I think it would be derelict for him not to talk to those in the know to gauge draft interest and make the most informed decision.

A little part of me, however, thinks that watching him crumple to the floor this season with a knee injury, despite it not being career-ending, perhaps spurred him and his family to check the grass on the other side of the fence a little quicker than anticipated. Kind of a reminder of the fickle nature of fate and how fast everything Perry has worked for could come to a screeching halt at the stomp of a foot.

Apr 09, 2015 01:24 PM #4

@jaybate-1.0

JB, the is the first I've thought about big Petro extending to the NBA. I'm in agreement for the most part on their influence in college recruiting but I always assumed the NBA drafts and plays guys on their ability?

If a Kansas player signs w Nike in the league does he get more playing time?

Apr 09, 2015 01:26 PM #5

@jaybate-1.0
well then this does not bode well for Cliff - he's got enough hurdles to overcome

and do guys switch from adidas to nike once they're in the pros or is it too difficult ?

Apr 09, 2015 01:33 PM #6

@Bosthawk Not sure that I qualify as a board heavy but I will weigh in.

I personally can't imagine that he leaves. I have posted this before but...

He is from Kansas.

Always wanted to play for Kansas.

Hasn't had a good post season run (actually has been part of the worst post season streak in Bill Self history).

He will be one of the top 10 players in D1 next year if he returns.

He may actually go undrafted as he is a classic "tweaner".

He has a chance to be an All American Senior next year if he stays and to me has little to lose by staying. Oubre has to leave. Cliff has to leave. Perry certainly does not need to leave and if he stays another year and averages 15 and 6 how does this negatively impact his stock? If he comes back and averages 18 and 10 and leads KU to a Final 4 that can only help.

Also, I can't handle the idea of him leaving. It makes me want to vomit thinking of our post play next year without him.

Apr 09, 2015 01:41 PM #7

IMO, he could use another year. I would think he could shine next year and improve his chances for a higher pick.

Apr 09, 2015 01:59 PM #8

Agree w/everyone here. My take is as a stretch 4, that is also 6'8 like Marcus...try to dominate like Marcus did his Jr season. We all saw McM looked like an NBAer, & he went lotto. I'd LOVE for Ellis to avg 18/8. To be honest, Ellis is one of the most versatile 6'8 guys Self has ever had. Love for him to go lotto. His attributes are mobility and range.

Apr 09, 2015 02:08 PM #9

@joeloveshawks I agree. Quite frankly, if a late second round pick is there this year, it will likely be there next year.

Apr 09, 2015 02:08 PM #10

@Bosthawk

Make a list of the board heavies so we know who can comment and who can't!!!

@jaybate-1.0 Seriously, I'm still on you about your shoe theories. So what you're saying is:

   Crappy team GM:  "I'd like to draft Wiggins."

   Crappy team pres:  "You can't draft him, he's wearing the wrong shoes."

   Crappy team GM:  "OK, we'll find a lesser player who is wearing the right shoes."

   Crappy team Pres:  "That's what you should do because then we'll be crappy again and maybe the best player next year will be wearing the right shoes and we can draft him."

Maybe I'm naive to the way things works, or maybe you are a conspiracy theorist by nature. Maybe our guys aren't quite good enough to get significant PT in the league.

Now if you want to talk conspiracy theories, I'm willing to believe that there is a Duke bias out there and even a bias out there to see certain teams win. In other words after Monday night, there's got to be a system that is influencing these results. If I was a neutral fan Monday I would have turned that game off before it ended. I did two years ago when Michigan was mauled by Louisville with referee assistance. I didn't even watch last years game, nor did I watch Butler-Uconn, and most of Butler-Duke. I'm tired of seeing these results that seemingly favor teams I and most of us dislike.

Sorry @Bosthawk, I know this was a Perry thread. I hope he returns obviously. The writers are giving us a great chance to do well next year if he returns, I saw one preseason poll that had us 4th, maybe a tad high, but maybe not. I don't know if Perry plays much at all in the NBA.

Apr 09, 2015 02:20 PM #11

If Perry is not really quick enough to play an NBA 3 position (and I suppose he is not), then I don't envision his finding much success in the League. But he is one heck of a fine college player who has provided lotsa thrills for the Jayhawk Nation. I really, really hope he returns for his senior season...and that his knee holds up well. He is one of those hapless tweeners whom Self has leaned upon heavily, and Perry has responded dependably. From the getgo his demeanor has made him one of my favorite all-time Jayhawks. Whatever he decides to do next year I wish him the very best. Bill Self made a very sound investment, bringing such a fine kid into his program.

Apr 09, 2015 02:26 PM #12

@MoonwalkMafia said:

@joeloveshawks I agree. Quite frankly, if a late second round pick is there this year, it will likely be there next year.

Exactly. But I guess that's why Perry's also weighing his options. If he has a shot at the first round, maybe he should go. Not sure his stock will drop any by returning his senior year. The NBA scouts know what they're gonna get. A role player - at best.

I'll support any player leaving who's guaranteed millions with a guaranteed NBA contract. However, with only a year remaining to obtain his degree (I'm assuming), why not provide yourself with a permanent insurance policy and just go ahead and get your degree? Perry will have his shot in the NBA. And, if that doesn't work out, he'll be able to make good money in Europe. That will always be there.

Plus, selfishly, KU is not going to be very good next year if Perry leaves.

Apr 09, 2015 02:29 PM #13

I read somewhere that Perry's family was experiencing financial difficulties this past year. Is it possibly? I don't believe everything I read, either. I believe his education is extremely important, but he has to be very close to finishing. I think he's just testing the waters, like evidently a couple other unnamed players on KU's team. I'm also wondering about his knee, it would have to be completely healed to do workouts for teams. I also think this world tournament would be an exciting way for Perry to start his last and I think great year.

Apr 09, 2015 02:44 PM #14

@VailHawk said:

I always assumed the NBA drafts and plays guys on their ability?

Not ability, but potential! They gamble it will translate to ability.

Apr 09, 2015 02:55 PM #15

@joeloveshawks

"He may actually go undrafted as he is a classic "tweaner"."

Right... but if Perry and Self play smart next year, he has the ability to establish himself as a viable 3 in the league.

Typical 3s play with great physicality. Perry doesn't have a good reputation for physicality... yet. But we saw what he could do at times this year, when he was put under the gun. Perry has the ability to play to a certain physicality. He'll never be a bruiser... but he is very capable to play gifted physical ball. He just needs another year of pushing his aggressiveness to another level, and finishing more of those aggressive moves. He should be making a strategy with Self to play at the 3, where he belongs.

I say that, but if we don't recruit more bigs, Self will be "Self-ish" and will use Perry all year at the 4 again. If that be the case, Perry could enter the draft now if he thinks this will happen. Perry may be waiting to see who Kansas recruits.

Apr 09, 2015 03:03 PM #16

@jaybate-1.0 Guess Steph Curry won't win the NBA MVP this year because he wears Under Armor shoes.

Russel Westbrook or James Harden, maybe even Lebron James will win it, because they wear Nike's. Or should I say they are tho only ones who can win it because they wear Nike's?

Apr 09, 2015 03:06 PM #17

@wissoxfan83 said:

@Bosthawk

Make a list of the board heavies so we know who can comment and who can't!!!

good point - I guess I feel all of you are board heavies because I learn so much from all of the regular posters here.. definitely including you (plus haven't noticed any trolls here either.. but that another topic)

it is raining and cold here in Mass, basketball season is over, I am down in general - the cliff debacle didn't help, and was hoping for some informed opinions about Perry because him announcing he's leaving would send me into further despair. I am aware fully of what his strengths and limitations are, but he is one of ours, and I was counting on him being a 4-year guy.

Apr 09, 2015 03:08 PM #18

@Bosthawk Will you be going to the Frozen Four this weekend at the Garden? University of Nebraska Omaha is making its first appearance in the FF, their goalie is pretty solid, they could win it all because of him.

Apr 09, 2015 03:09 PM #19

@JRyman
that may be a fun activity - thanks for the tip

Apr 09, 2015 03:22 PM #20

For what it's worth, after a quick Google images search, it appears these players wear this brand of shoes in the NBA:

Morii- Nike.
Cole- Adidas
Pierce- Nike
BMac- Adidas
Wigs- Adidas
Chalmers- Adidas
Arthur- Nike
Hinrich- Nike
Collison- Nike
Gooden- Nike.
TRob- Nike

Apr 09, 2015 03:31 PM #21

If you remember EJ and Releford both were on the draft boards their junior years. They both would have made NBA money for a short period (maybe even a long period) of time but both ended up going un drafted and That is exactly what Ellis is facing right now. If he under preforms next year he will go undrafted. I would be viewing all options too.

Apr 09, 2015 03:32 PM #22

Tim Duncan wears Adidas, so does Derek Rose, Ricky Rubio, Joakim Noah, Austin Rivers, Serge Ibaka, Dwight Howard, Harrison Barnes to just name a few.

Along with Curry wearing Under Armor you also have Kemba Walker, Raymond Felton, Corey Brewer and Brandon Jennings.

Apr 09, 2015 04:16 PM #23

@VailHawk

It is not an either or situation. It is a mostly situation.

Think about a Harvard/Yale/Princeton graduate and a KU graduate applying for a job with an investment banking house on Wall Street.

Wall Street investment banking houses, investment managjers, or whatever they are calling themselves these days, is ultimately about making 2% on the largest deals that can possibly be put together. Whether the deals make the every day world better or worse is immaterial. Deals are done to make 2%. If they enable implementation of a global communications infrastructure, or a network of privatized concentrations camps where persons are tortured 24/7 to develop mind control technologies and then incinerated to cover the liability to the firm for crimes against humanity, alas, might make little difference based on the historical actions of investment banks, banks and so on in war time activities. For every ten investment bankers that will do the former deal, one will do the latter, because 2% of a big enough number means the deal gets done. There ought to be a law against it, but the fact is the private oligarchs that own controlling interests in the most dominant investment banking houses, or else animate those investment banking houses with preferential information, investment capital, and public and private access to deals, of course also invest sufficiently in elected and appointed government officials so as to see to that such laws are not passed. Capice?

But I digress. Let's carry on with the investment banking profession as an analogue for professional basketball players, before talking more specifically about professional basketball players.

Investment banks apparently seek three things in a hire and the rank importance varies with the candidate and the firm's needs at any given time.

  1. A fast, educated, socially adept brain literate in the latest trading technologies and with at least a thimble of insight about what is going on in the economy from their college education (note: these sorts of minds are always in oversupply for the number of jobs available).

  2. Existing access to new business, which is NEVER in oversupply, because demand for taking 2% of high buck IPOs is effectively inelastic.

  3. A workaholic streak.

Most KU graduates in the top 5% are equivalent on number 1.

Most KU graduates in the top 5% are deficient on the second count, and so are shunted to regional investment banking firms to start, where they can build up the business access needed by smiling, dialing and defiling, to move to the big firms, or help their regional firms go global.

Workaholics come from all walks of life, but kids out of the upper classes have FU money, and the kids from KU without the FU money tend not to have the new business access built in, so the firms tend to hire the Ivy leaguers, but every once in awhile, they take a risk on the KU grad, if he, or his family, bring something new to the table.

So: some of both get hired, but mostly its the Ivy leaguers, and after the trial period, the kid that learns fastest and brings the most new business, regardless of his pedigree, gets kept and the other gets flushed, unless he is a relative of someone in the firm or someone important about to join the administration in Washington, DC. Its a numbers game. All professions are numbers games despite their talk about marketing expertise. They are a numbers game marketing access to making things rain, with expertise being minimum ante to play.

The new hire that gets flushed once again tends to depend on his professional network to get access to being rehired. When he relies on this access, his independence is then neutered for the rest of his career. He knows he is not valuable in and of himself. He is only valuable in how he can be used by those in his professional network. This most accept, because they know how to do nothing else at this point, other than wait for an inheritance, which can be an iffy thing in a highly competitive upper class family of 3 to 5 seeking to gain through inheritance the standard of living and social status for themselves and their children that their parents achieved. Thus, these professional networks are the foundations of employment regimes in most employment sectors I have ever been exposed to. Some in them are robust professionals wielding their networking resources. Others are neutered professionals letting themselves be exploited for the greater good of those above them. This regime is in part why dominatrices can make such a good living on Wall Street. But I digress again.

The Ivy leaguer has the more extensive network, so he tends to get rehired more often.

Overall there is a bias toward the Ivy league network in the investment banking sector, even though the sector prides itself on the bottom line--doing big deals, often, for 2% off the top.

It does not matter that a few at the top are ruthless geniuses from anywhere, nor does it matter that a few from the bottom find marginal niches and hang on in clever ways.

The bulk of investment bankers in the processes of making their nest eggs are quite fungible in IQ and workaholism and minimal ethics department and are mainly distinguishable as dominants and eunuchs, rain makers and domestiques. They all dress quite similarly, but there are little tell tale signs of who is who.

The bulk of the investment banking culture hews toward this bias of its traditional professional network with occasional sharp infusions/integrations of new networks, when an Investment banking house commences operations in a new country, or business sector, or what have you.

Now, with this analog of the investment banking profession in hand, let us consider your assumption that the best players play in the NBA.

Professional basketball is a "profession." It's members are produced by "schools." The schools are segmented by "shoe brands." According to my hypothesis, these produce "professional networks" that are reinforcing to supply NBA teams that are also segmented at least partially by shoe brands.

Now keep in mind here that I am hypothesizing, and not asserting how things actually are. I don't know how they actually are. I am a fan. I have never worked for an NBA franchise in any capacity. I am just trying to outline what appears to me would be a probable logical professional network dynamic operating to some degree or another in the NBA. The NBA is very unusual in many ways and so not highly comparable to other professions in certain ways. It has a formal draft that investment banking lacks. You might say investment banking has an informal auction of slots to the applicant promising to give the biggest most profitable part of himself to the investment banking "league." Investment banking is very collusive and highly concentrated in ownership at the top of the business sector of investment banking--the NBA, if you will of investment banking. And so on. We can learn some things from the analogy and not others. Capice?

At any given time, there are sharply more NBA bodies with NBA skills than there are NBA job slots. There are a few elite NBA players, what are commonly called franchise players. Such players may come from any school, any shoe brand, any planet, or any universe. They may come from an elite basketball program or any old major or mid major. But the rest of the NBA job slots are staffed by highly fungible athletes, whose main differentiating characteristics are their varying salary loads to the teams and their professional networks. and their appeal to their franchise players. Contrary to popular belief, the NBA is a people business. Being able to play at competitive standard for the role available and possessing an NBA body is ante. Just ask Nick Collison. What decides who is on a roster, and who is not for non franchise player roles relates to which fungible player meets the franchise player's agenda. Each franchise player is not only a human being with subjective personal preferences, but a "professional" in a professional network with professional network preferences. He looks at fungible teammate through both lenses and filters whom he prefers accordingly. Same with management, but they pay much more attention to budgetary stuff, and to keeping round elbows regarding professional networks. Management has to think about not just this player, but the steady stream of players they will need. They need to think about keeping a good working relationship with the professional network that meets their needs most.

If the only way to adequately fill a non-franchise player slot on an NBA team dominated by Shoe Brand A were to be to hire a player from Shoe Brand B, then the player from Shoe Brand B would be hired. But he might well be the first to be traded/released and replaced to make room for a Shoe Brand A player subsequently. This is what I meant by this not being an either or situation, but rather a mostly situation.

Though I have no way of knowing this, it is also reasonable to hypothesize about the NBA that there are certain Nike dominated franchises, certain adidas dominated franchises, and certain franchises that have found a niche catering intentionally to a mix of both. By dominated, I do not mean that Nike runs the franchise. The owners run the franchise. I mean that the roster tends to be dominated by Nike players, and so the Nike player professional network's needs are part of the reconciliations going on in choices among players to be added and subtracted in pursuit of the best team the owner can put on the floor given his pocketbook.

Hypothetically speaking, Nike would likely favor the Nike dominated franchises, would it not?

Likewise, adidas would favor the adidas dominated franchises.

And Nike and adidas would look on the combo franchises as useful in managing the occasional excesses (slop factor) and shortfalls that occur in all demand and supply situations in the short term.

This sort of regime would essentially raise the entry costs of a competitor to Nike and adidas trying to enter the game and by default, give them a bit of a say in who they are willing to lower the entry costs for and who they are not.

For hypothetical example, the combo franchises might even absorb an occasional third shoe brand, say, one like Under Armour, should regime dynamics make adding a third oligopolist make sense, in order to discourage some monster outside player from trying to come in and throw its weight around in an effort at regime change from outside. It is called using a third minor member of the oligopoly to take up oxygen at the margin.

Now I could go on a great length about this, but I think this outlines that the NBA is not solely about the best player players. That is a lot of it. But their are things like professional networks, not just players unions, underlying who is in the opportunity set to even begin to be considered as playing the best.

At least that's my hypothesis.

Rock Chalk!

Apr 09, 2015 04:23 PM #24

@JRyman

Nothing about winning awards is ever simple, nor are awarding mechanisms structured exactly the same as mechanisms for staffing rosters, etc. How Oscars are awarded are not the same mechanism as how and which movies get made.

So, no, it would be naive to say that Curry won't win the award, because of the shoe brand he is affiliated with. I can imagine scenarios in which it might be a factor, however.

But I would have to study the shoe brand regime a great deal more than I have the time, recourses or desire to do, and then I would have to study the award mechanisms and their interplay with shoe brands before I would wish to hazard a forecast.

Apr 09, 2015 04:48 PM #25

@JRyman said:

Tim Duncan wears Adidas, so does Derek Rose, Ricky Rubio, Joakim Noah, Austin Rivers, Serge Ibaka, Dwight Howard, Harrison Barnes to just name a few.

Along with Curry wearing Under Armor you also have Kemba Walker, Raymond Felton, Corey Brewer and Brandon Jennings.

These kinds of lists of players by brand that are not disaggregated for time of signing with the shoe brand, so as to account for the apparently changing dynamics of shoe brand relationships the last few years, versus those of prior times, seem not to tell us very much about where things are at right now, but they are nonetheless interesting and useful data points for disaggregation and analysis, so thanks for listing them.

Apr 09, 2015 05:00 PM #26

@jaybate-1.0

I have to disagree with you assessment of the influence of shoe companies in the NBA. NBA teams are NOT affiliated with any specific brand and the uniforms for the entire League are supplied by just one vendor, want to venture a guess who this firm is? ADIDAS. By the way, the profit is is so low that Adidas indicated it will not bid after the contract is over; the market for NBA branded apparel is small compared to college branded apparel.

With unis out of the way, the only thing left to endorse is shoes and players do that individually. Do you really think Wiggins was traded to the Wolves because he endorses Adidas? No. He was traded there because he plays essentially the same position as LeBron and what the Cavaliers really needed was a big time "big' and Love was the best available...does not look like it is working well for them by the way; Love's numbers are way down, the chemistry is not there and there have been PDDs, Public Displays of Disaffection, such as Love stating in an interview that Curry and not teammate LeBron should be the MVP and Lebron has publicly called on Love to "be' a part of the team; obviously the honeymoon is over and it would not surprise me at all to see Love move to a different team after the season is over...of course a Championship could change things.

As far as Perry and as I posted before, I am not too worried about this. Most players, even those with remote NBA potential routinely file that request for information and most end up staying in school. If he is projected as a 1st round next year, then he is eligible for the NCAA sponsored insurance program and that might be the real reason for the request. I understand his family is very education oriented and if he can graduate in May, which is distinct possibility given that he is an outstanding student, then it would be more feasible.

BTW, here is a list of the Adidas players in the NBA...not too shabby...

!Adidas Endorsers Narrow.JPG ↗

Apr 09, 2015 05:00 PM #27

If Perry returns for a 4th year, yet is not selected in the first round of the 2016 NBA draft, then he serves as a terrific example of what I think KU, the Big 12 and the NCAA governing bodies should do. All 3 should ante up financial incentives at the time of his graduation (the league because he has been selected a Big 12 star). KU should offer him free tuition for an advanced degree of his choosing. Four year scholarship players who have helped secure multimillions of dollars for those 3 organizations should receive compensatory consideration, esp. if their professional earning prospects for the sport appear to be relatively dismal.

Apr 09, 2015 05:34 PM #28

@JayHawkFanToo

Thanks for posting the list. It helps take what I am saying out of the ethers. It amounts to about 82 players, according to my squinting, feeble eyes.

30 NBA teams x 12 active players/team = 360 player slots

82 adidas contracted players/360 slots = 23% of NBA roster slots belong to adidas contracted players

This percentage of adidas contracted NBA players closely tracks with the percentage of adidas leaning players with power AAU teams sponsored by adidas vs.power AAU teams sponsored by Nike.

I hypothesize that there are in effect two professional networks of players in the NBA that NBA management must rely on and draw employees from: one Nike-agent complex leaning and one adidas-agent complex leaning.

One supplies 77% of the roster slots.

One supplies only 23% of the roster slots.

We don't have statistics yet, but I would hypothesize, professional networks being how they are in other professions, there would be some clustering of among franchise; i.e., some franchises would tend to favor Nike-agent complex leaning players in the fungible classification of players, over adidas-agent complex leaning. This tendency to cluster would often rule out a number of franchises almost entirely for adidas-agent complex leaning players, who start out as a small minority to begin with.

When you are a member of a professional network with only a 23% foot print in the job market, and find your self needing to look for a new slot on a new team, you face sharply reduced odds of finding a slot open to an adidas-agent complex leaning player. It is not that you cannot get another job, it is that you have many less choices to choose from.

For what its worth, I do not think the adidas contract for uniforms with ALL of the NBA, would alter this dynamic significantly, since this dynamic would logically be expected to operate at the franchise level. I doubt that if Nike were to take over the contract for supplying uniforms to the NBA that it would significantly alter the dynamic either.

But as usual, I am very grateful to you for weighing in and for your take and for the chunk of data that you presented that set me thinking further. You are always thinking and bringing a new angle that I had not considered. I appreciate it. And yes I could still be wrong about all of this.

Rock Chalk!

Apr 09, 2015 06:00 PM #29

@REHawk
A guy in our office has a brainiac for a kid, and coming out of high school he had enough AP credits to enroll with 60 college hours-basically starting off as a junior at Texas A&M.
He also had a 4 year full ride so the deal is he can apply two years of that scholarship to graduate school at A&M. So wouldn't that work for Perry? Tarik Black came here as a graduate. Didn't we give him a scholarship?

Apr 09, 2015 06:05 PM #30

@JayhawkRock78 yes and 5 year seniors, red shirt, med shirt or both as in Taylor Cox for fb.

Apr 09, 2015 06:12 PM #31

@Crimsonorblue22
Thanks-I thought that was the case.

Apr 09, 2015 06:15 PM #32

@jaybate-1.0

Ah...yes, but you left an important player, Under Armour, that now has a sizable share likely approaching Adidas and the up and coming Chinese companies that have started spending all that extra cash they have from actually making the shoes for the big 3.

From the Collective Bargaining Agreement:

"A team may have a maximum of 13 players on its active roster. At least eight players must suit up for every game. Any remaining players are placed in the Inactive List, and cannot play in games. Teams may have a maximum of two players on the Inactive List; this can drop to zero for up to two weeks at a time, and additional, temporary inactive positions may be added with league approval in hardship cases. The Inactive List can change up to 60 minutes before opening tip by informing the official scorer of the game. A player can be inactive for as little as one game. Players sent to the NBA Development League will continue to count on a team’s inactive list While individual teams must carry a minimum of 13 (12 active plus one inactive) players, the NBA guarantees a league-wide average of at least 14 players per team. The league is surcharged if they do not meet the average."

So, counting the required minimum average of 14 players there are at least 420 players in the NBA and since many teams carry more than 14 players, the number is likely higher.

The list below shows the Nike endorsers and I count 135 players or 33% of the available roster slots. Since many players are not really offered endorsement agreements but simply get free shoes, realistically, Nike's share is closer to 50% than 77% and likely will get smaller, not larger with the advent of the new players. The devil is in the details.

This is the list of the Nike endorsers...

!Nike Endorsers Narrow.jpg ↗

Apr 09, 2015 06:31 PM #33

@JayHawkFanToo Accountants can make numbers say what they want. That's the great thing about numbers, you can make them work for you argument by adding more numbers or taking certain numbers out of the argument to sway it in your favor.

Apr 09, 2015 06:36 PM #34

@jaybate-1.0
Thanks for helping me understand how in the world colleges like Texas, AZ (can't stand that coach) got Durant and 5 star recruits. I couldn't for the life of figure out how these kids sign up to go there when they know the outcome! It is disheartening to see talented young bloods don't have that winning mindset and sell out to $ even before the draft. I just hear Nike agents telling these kids, "don't go to KU because you'll work your fanny off, and you're bound to injuries. And going to Texas, you'll be safe and guarantee top 20 pick." If I were a kid with talent & brain, I'd say I'm gonna go where I can get better, and WIN. It's pitiful how these corrupted Nikes are ruining our future champions and their minds with bribes and fears. Young minds can easily be manipulated and influenced, and Nikes are taking advantage of this. Also, what is your opinion about Selden? Something happened to this kid at KU, just a gut feeling. I'd appreciate your insight - oh, spell it out for me, please!

Apr 09, 2015 06:54 PM #35

@JRyman

If you think accountants are bad, you should read the work of the Global Warming advocates...they are perpetrating one of the bigger if not the biggest scam ever and making some people very wealthy in the process.

Apr 09, 2015 07:04 PM #36

@JayHawkFanToo

That is a pretty impressive list of 148 players that Nike has under contract.

Nike 148.
adidas 82.
Under Armour ?

Oligopolies being what they are, we should expect Under Armour to reach about 40, shortly, if a serious push by other companies were underway. We should expect about, oh, maybe 6-12 total over time, with a few blips upward during the land rush phase and then a settling out at about 6-10 in ten to 20 years. And these will source their petroleum from a dozen so petroleum refiners that are financed by the same private central banking system whose owners own controlling interests in a half to two thirds of the petroleum refiners, while their central bank finances 50% of the annual operating budgets.

One more thing about this 148/82 ratio. It is kind of a testament to how resilient the Nike-agent complex appears to be given that adidas has been aggressively trying to offset Euro losses by aggressively growing American market penetration and has as most achieved very, very, VERY expensive second banana status among NBA player share. A logical expectation would be that now that Nike has withstood the concentrated effort to buy a larger share of the player endorsement market that we are not likely to see Nike go on the offensive increasingly, which should over time winnow down adidas hard earned share, unless a big time player like a Blackstone continues to feel bullish about adidas.

I wonder how inclusive and recent these lists are? Do you have any reason to think they are inclusive?

Also, I wonder if these lists at all substantively contradict the reputed 80/20 split between Nike-agent complex leaning players and adidas-agent complex leaning players reputedly starting in the power AAU programs? I mean, I wonder if the players that are not good enough to garner endorsements still constitute an 80/20 split? Logic would suggest that they would still have that sort of a proportioning.

Next, the folks in Industrial City, Indonesia, that have reputedly tended to make Nike and adidas shoes must be very bummed about the entry of major Chinese shoecos into the sweepstakes. There may be shortly a rather large supply of excess production capacity in industrial City that could get into tactical shoe market and dramatically cut the cost of war fighting footwear, as the regime change wars likely broaden in the coming 5 years. Ugh!

Its a wild and wooly global economy regionalizing right and left.

Apr 09, 2015 07:11 PM #37

When Duke won back to back National Titles in 1991 and 92 they wore Adidas.

Apr 09, 2015 07:23 PM #38

@HawksWin

The thing to remember about all of this stuff is something Rick Pitino said in the news story during last season about agent and agent runner involvement channelling recruits toward certain brands. I recall he said something like if its okay with the NCAA then it must be okay. As fans and laymen, we have to assume that everything that is going on is legal, whether we think its right, or fair, or not, because we are fans and laymen. There is no reason for us to assume, or infer ANYTHING illegal is going on with shoes. I would even say the same thing about the apparent refereeing biases I have been noting of late. Referee bias is not necessarily the same thing as illegality. I suppose there might be ways that refereeing bias could occur that would be illegal, but I can also imagine ways that it might not be illegal. Take professional wrestling of the kind that has always appeared to be staged and scripted. To my knowledge, they are not violating any law by staging that sort of professional wrestling. If we look at the NCAA Tournament, as a layman, I am not familiar with any laws that require the NCAA to stage an authentically competitive tournament without referee bias. Maybe such laws exist, but I don't know about them. As a layman, I would reckon that if the NCAA wanted to turn D1 into kind of a basketball version of professional wrestling that it could do so. Maybe some lawyer will weigh in on this, but I cannot recall any criminal statute that says NCAA Division 1 Tournament has to be fair. It is one of the peculiarities of much of sport, or at least it appears to me so at this point time. Unfairness and inequity are not always necessarily illegal, I reckon, though I would of course defer to a knowledgeable legal authority on this sort of thing.

Apr 09, 2015 07:24 PM #39

If the shoe company's have a strangle hold on the out comes of games in college sports, then can someone please explain to me in shoe brands only (not the ncaa hates Larry Brown or SMU is still suffering for their 1980's football death penalty) but how SMU got robbed on a late game call while wearing Nikes but UCLA who were wearing Adidas?

Apr 09, 2015 07:28 PM #40

@JRyman

It is worth knowing, but what is the significance of Duke having worn adidas in the early 90s to today? Are you just making a point about adidas influence in the 1990s? Or are you saying the relationships between adidas and Nike have changed substantively the last 25 years, or that they have not changed substantively the last 25 years. I need some clarification here, if I am to interpret your post. Or perhaps it was not meant for me?

Apr 09, 2015 07:30 PM #41

@JayHawkFanToo

"He was traded there because he plays essentially the same position as LeBron and what the Cavaliers really needed was a big time "big' and Love was the best available...does not look like it is working well for them by the way; Love's numbers are way down, the chemistry is not there and there have been PDDs, Public Displays of Disaffection, such as Love stating in an interview that Curry and not teammate LeBron should be the MVP and Lebron has publicly called on Love to "be' a part of the team; obviously the honeymoon is over and it would not surprise me at all to see Love move to a different team after the season is over...of course a Championship could change things."

I'm usually a pragmatist... but on events like this I do believe in karma. The Cavs would have been bad bad juju for a young Andrew Wiggins. I'm so glad that trade happened. Glad young Wigs doesn't have to listen to LeBron boss him around and belittle him. Wigs positive energy paid off. He was freed to go become his own man. Bravo that!

I think shoecos have plenty of influence, especially in college and lower ball. Not sure on the pro level. They sure like to toss around a lot of cash.

Apr 09, 2015 07:31 PM #42

@JRyman

What leads you to believe the shoe companies necessarily have a stranglehold on the outcome of games?

I am NOT at all convinced at this time that the ShoeCoes are the drivers shaping the outcomes of games, if the outcomes of games really were in fact being shaped.

Please explain to me on your reasoning and facts that makes you think that ShoeCoes are determining the outcomes of games.

Apr 09, 2015 07:32 PM #43

One thing not mentioned with Ellis is that he could be looking to leave because of the risk of injury again. Until he got hurt, I don't think he had as much as a scrape on his arm in his career at KU. Suddenly he gets hurt which impacted his stock and season the way he was trending. Now he and his family are probably thinking what if I were to get hurt again. Just a thought..

Apr 09, 2015 07:33 PM #44

@jaybate-1.0

Professional wrestling does not label itself as a sport but as entertainment and they freely admit that the plots are fabricated; you don't see anyone betting in Vegas on professional wrestling. College sports are predicated on being above board and billions of $ are wagered every year on the outcome of games.

When you quote Pitino you have to quote the entirety comment and he also said something along the lines of...obviously it is not a big deal since KU seems to get a fair share of top players...or words to that effect. Just sayin'...

Apr 09, 2015 07:34 PM #45

@JRyman
I posted elsewhere I think the SMU call had nothing to do with shoes. To me the smoking gun is viewership as in UCLA is located in a region with 14 million viewers, not to mention the rest of the PAC 12.

Apr 09, 2015 07:35 PM #46

@jaybate-1.0 Saying that it's not the shoes Mars that makes a winner. When there is a higher ratio of Nike schools out there the odds are they will win more. It's just like Windows vs Mac. There are a lot more windows users out there hence why more hackers and aware is intended for windows computers and not Macs.

Spin the numbers how ever you like but I don't buy it as to shoe companies having the pull to get wins, now if Vegas wants you to win or lose, that I believe can happen. Just ask UNLV's 1991 team.

Weren't they Nike? Weren't they a cult favorite?

Sure Nike threw more money at Duke, and when a company does that what school, especially a private school wouldn't jump at the chance to have more income? Coaches get money from Nike and Adidas when they sign on at a school that pushes their base contracts up.

Conspiracy theories are great for Grisham Novels, but in the reality of life not so much.

Apr 09, 2015 07:36 PM #47

@BeddieKU23

I've been wondering that.

Plus... if Perry is to stay at Kansas next year and do the right thing (play minutes at the 3) then he'll really be pushed to intensify his game further. It is what he needs to do. That means more hard drives to the hole and finishes. I think he would like to draw at least one decent pay day before he gets hurt.

Apr 09, 2015 07:37 PM #48

@JayHawkFanToo

Actually, regarding Pitino, the portion I referred to is not at all ripped out of context. What matters to me in this instance and what is relevant about what he said in this instance is that Rick Pitino thought that the NCAA thought that whatever was going on was okay and so he concluded it was okay too. But I would be glad for you to paste in the entirety of his comments to flesh it out, if you think it would clarify the part about him concluding that if the NCAA thought it was okay that he did too.

Apr 09, 2015 07:43 PM #49

@jaybate-1.0 There are no facts how shoe co's determine the outcome. That is my point.

Saying that what ever shoe a kid wears in college can affect his draft pick is utterly ridiculous. It didn't factor into an injured Embiid being picked last year.

Again spinning numbers to get them to say what you want is easy, but the reality of it is players get drafted on potential anymore especially OAD's. Guys who stay are picked by more of what they have accomplished.

Apr 09, 2015 07:55 PM #50

@JRyman

Spinning the numbers implies I am trying to deceive you. Why would I want to deceive you? Quite to the contrary, I am trying to understand what is going on and admit freely that I don't yet. Should I infer that you are spinning the numbers precisely because you are accusing me of doing something I have no reason, or intention, to do? I don't think so. I think this is a difficult and sensitive topic for folks to think about and discuss, because it suggests possible systemic unfairness being involved in a game we love. But systemic unfairness is not necessarily illegal.

Regarding the appearance of shaping outcomes and/or spreads of games, I am assuming as a layman that whatever is going on is probably legal, or it would have already been addressed by authorities.

And to reiterate I am not at all convinced the ShoeCoes would be the ones to shape the outcomes of games, if they were being shaped in some legal way, or even in some illegal way. I am a layman and do not know about the illegal ways with sufficient expertise to contribute much knowledgeable on that count.

All I can say with some confidence is that whatever is creating the appearance of outcomes and/or spreads being shaped, it is not yet transparent and as a layman I have no reason yet to suspect illegality.

Apr 09, 2015 08:17 PM #51

This just in...

Perry Ellis has traded in his high tops for a pair of skates. He'll be jumping over to the Islanders next season as a right wing.

Doubtful he will ever be called a "p" by my wife again!

Apr 09, 2015 08:20 PM #52

@drgnslayr

I think he will have to intensify his game further no matter what. He had maybe 5-6 games last year that were NBA worthy. I think a Senior year would really force that intensity on him more consistently. He clearly has to show more perimeter based skills both offensively and defensively. I'm certainly not speculating that the risk of injury has forced the NBA convo further ahead but anything is possible. He knows his position to scouts now and must make the best decision for himself and hopefully for KU.

Apr 09, 2015 08:42 PM #53

@JayHawkFanToo
You got that right FanToo! This Climate Change is the biggest lie and deception, and people are falling for it! Once scientists' research supported the COW MILK over MOM's MILK to babies only to recant a decade later that showed MOTHER's MILK is beneficial to babies because it provides immediate immune plus much more. And these same Scientists claim to know less than 10% of the bottom of the ocean that holds 95%+ of earth's water, and these bozo idiots claim to know about the climate? Are you kidding me? They have yet to discover all the creatures on earth, let alone how water/ocean pressure, wind, etc work? How arrogant or ignorant are these claimed academics? Can you imagine our taxes paying for such bogus research when common sense will tell you why feed animal's milk to a baby when mother produces it? Uneducated or educated, people stopped using their brain, and listening too much of media that is full of s---! Sorry to go off here, but your comment hit a nerve :)

Apr 09, 2015 08:47 PM #54

@JRyman

It must be the off season.

Thanks for giving me the chance to defend myself from things I don't claim. :-)

Its good to play defense. Keeps one nimble. ;-)

You appear to be spinning my spinning numbers. Are you? :-)

Next.

I don't know if shoe brand lean impacts how players are drafted. If you want me to draft a hypothesis about it, I guess I could, but I have not really felt a hypothesis was necessarily in order yet. I can imagine circumstances where it might, but I can imagine circumstances where it might not. I wouldn't see anything wrong with it if shoe brand lean were a factor in drafting players, would you?

That causes me to interrupt and ask you why would it be a bad thing if ShoeCo brand lean were one of the factors considered in drafting players? I don't see what would be wrong with it. It would be like picking a UNC student over a UC Berkeley student for a job in Chapel Hill, because you had better relations with and more respect for and did more business with UNC folks than UC Berkeley folks in Piedmont region of North Carolina. But I digress.

Wiggins situation in Cleveland is one where I could imagine that it might have played a factor in being drafted, if they were in negotiations with Lebron as the draft occurred, but I don't ever recall saying that it did play a factor.

On the hand, I do recall wondering about if Wigs shoe lean was perhaps a part of the reason Wigs was traded out of Cleveland AFTER Lebron signed with Cleveland. But that is not quite what you appear to be suggesting about me.

Oh,well while I am playing defense, how about I play a little pre-emptive defense and defend myself from something you haven't even inaccurately accused me of...yet...at least I don't recall you have. :-)

I want to play this kind of defense for awhile, because at least it is about something that interests me. :-)

Wiggins reputedly was once a Nike lean in high school and reputedly the greatest prospect since Lebron James, then Wigs in something of a surprise move went to an adidas school with a coach contracted with adidas. He was drafted next by Cleveland. He was drafted the Number one player in the draft. Cleveland then signed premier Nike endorser, Lebron James. Cleveland then traded the Number one pick in the draft and the reputed greatest prospect since Lebron, and perhaps by then an adidas endorser, to Minnesota for a center who was never considered the greatest prospect since Lebron to my recollection, but who had played well for a franchise that had not been very successful, as far as I recall. Hmmm. In turn, the trade did not work out very well for Cleveland. Hmmm. And while Wigs has played well in Minnesota, It would appear not to have helped Wig's career much as an endorser to play in a small midwestern market, like Minneapolis, as opposed to having played with Lebron in Cleveland, a larger market team in the Eastern Time Zone. Do you see why one might wonder? Not be sure. Not be categorical. But wonder? Maybe even hypothesize? But not claim it as a fact, or a certainty.

Is there anything else that I do not recall saying that you might like inaccurately to imply I said that I might for your and my edification and exercise defend myself against? :-)

P.S.: I recall you are in a lot of chronic pain and I sincerely hope you have found some effective assistance with it. I know chronic pain is a terrible burden. Rock Chalk and thanks for responding to my posts even though we differ a bit on things.

Apr 09, 2015 10:46 PM #55

@JayHawkFanToo This political crap is getting out of hand. If you want to have people appreciate this drivel go to redstate or some other place occupied by dullards. It is people like you who devalue a degree from the University of Kansas.

Apr 10, 2015 01:11 AM #56

I guess there could be 2 schools of thought from Perry's perspective. 1. If he is marginal 1st round now he will be next year also and why risk injury?
2. Stay another year and try to improve your standing.
I think there is way more upside in #2 than downside.

Apr 10, 2015 01:14 AM #57

I would quite shocked if Perry didn't return.

Apr 10, 2015 01:29 AM #58

@jaybate-1.0 Your 148/82 ratio looks better than it really is. In shoes there is one Michael Jordan and then everyone else. I saw recently that Nike has close to a 85% marketshare and most of that is the Jordan brand. There is no way that Adidias will ever catch Nike. I just hope that the recruits keep coming anyway.

Apr 10, 2015 03:39 AM #59

@dylans

I have a feeling you are right, but I was trying to play take what I was given. Thanks for weighing in.

Apr 10, 2015 03:48 AM #60

@jaybate-1.0 I don't like being on the wrong side of the fence. The wad of Adidas cash and more than adequate recruits that are coming in makes it seem better.

Funny thing is I don't remember feeling like KU had a recruiting advantage when it was a Nike school. It does seem like it could be that way now, but I'm not 100%

Apr 10, 2015 04:05 AM #61

@BeddieKU23

I think you are right. Perry is a smart young man. He knows what he is up against and he'll come back and show more intensity on a consistent basis, not only because it will help his draft stock but also because he is a senior and he knows what the role is of a senior... to lead the herd.

If he stays healthy I think we are in for a wild ride this coming year with Perry. It will be the Perry we always expected... just like what we experienced out of Tyshawn Taylor his senior year. That guy really kicked some butt!

Apr 10, 2015 04:31 AM #62

Bring on Under Armour. Better labor practices than any of the other big names. Better quality stuff too than Nike or Adidas.

Hopefully KU being an adidas school weeds out the stupid kids who think brands matter. (really, we're really only talking about Michael Jordan here building the Nike brand. The rest are coat tail hangers.) It obviously doesn't catch all the prima donnas, but I'm OK if the majority of "ME" guys only want to play in Nikes. Whatever. Go to Texas or KY for a year or two. It does sicken me to see schools actually farm their entire sports branding out to Nike Design. (No conflict of interest there?)

On the other hand, Adidas apparel designers SUCK. I'm almost thankful that Wisconsin lost in the championship because those F-ing hideous badger bagger stripe uni's would have been immortalized in Wisconsin's athletics shrine for the next 100 years.

Is Puma still around? Converse? Saucony? Sketchers. Keen? Merrill? New Balance? Keds? Bueller? Bueller?...

Apr 10, 2015 04:33 AM #63

Oh yeah... also, I think Perry will stay another year and tear up the Big 12!

Apr 10, 2015 04:37 AM #64

@drgnslayr slayr, you gotta be growing sleepy, what with this late night blending of Ellis with Tyshawn in the same paragraph! Jeesh, I spent some 3 1/4 years grimacing just about every time TT chalked up another blunder. Though Perry has somewhat disappeared from a few contests, his progress for the most part has been regularly upward from Day One. I think I know what you are driving at, the senior year shining moments, but surely you can dredge up a better metaphor!

Apr 10, 2015 05:27 AM #65

@sfbahawk

This political crap is getting out of hand. If you want to have people appreciate this drivel go to redstate or some other place occupied by dullards. It is people like you who devalue a degree from the University of Kansas.

As a matter of fact, I do live in a red state, BY CHOICE, so I don't have to go to one. Nice of you to call us, Kansans, dullards; it makes me wonder how you ever survived in Lawrence, Kansas surrounded by us, dullards.

I take it that your entire rather offensive comment was in relation to my casual, one sentence about Global Warming? If that is the case and you feel so strongly about it, I will be happy to debate the subject with you in a forum of your choice, although this has been debated at nauseaum and real scientists - and by this I mean the ones that have no problem making their source, data and methods available for peer review and not the ones that spout opinions as fact and refuse to make available the information used to reach their conclusions or collude on how to alter data to justify their conclusions - have proved beyond a doubt the gigantic scam that Global Warming is. On the other hand why bother, it seems like you have your mind made up and frankly, I have no desire to change it plus...how likely is it that a dullard like me would have any chance against a smart East/West Coast savant such as yourself?

Apr 10, 2015 07:12 AM #66

@jaybate-1.0

A couple of points. Cleveland needed a big name, talented "big" since Varejao was doubtful and Love (arguably a top 10 NBA player) was by far the best available big; in the other hand, the Cavs had several wing players like Wiggins including LeBron himself, so it was really a no brainer to trade an unknown commodity like Wiggins for a known performer like Love. I have not heard anyone say that the trade was shoeco driven; maybe you can cite your source for that assertion.

Also, you said:

"And while Wigs has played well in Minnesota, It would appear not to have helped Wig's career much as an endorser to play in a small midwestern market, like Minneapolis, as opposed to having played with Lebron in Cleveland, a larger market team in the Eastern Time Zone."

Again, I am not sure where you get your numbers but the Minneapolis/St. Paul market ↗ where Wiggins plays is almost 50% larger than the Cleveland/Akron market ↗ and it has a lot less competition form other regional sports teams. In fact, Wiggins went from the smaller Cleveland market to the much larger Minneapolis market.

Also, you started with Nike having 77% of the NBA players but the numbers indicate that there are 127 out of roughly 420-450 players or a tad under 30% (Adidas 82 players is roughly 20%); this is a big discrepancy that pretty much negates your conclusion of a Nike dominated NBA, wouldn't you agree? I am curious as to where you get your 77% and 23% numbers, mine come from Wikipedia that the shoecos would certainly correct if they are wrong...they might not be exact numbers but at least there are numbers with a source cited and I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe they are incorrect.

We may or may not agree on the numbers and conclusions but it has been an interesting and enlightening discussion and I believe we all now have at least a little more information on the subject than before. This is always a good thing..

Apr 10, 2015 11:03 AM #67

Is this shoe thing really a ............THING?

I thought you guys have been feeding us a line of crap all this time. Does anybody really care about stupid brand of SHOE they wear? REALLY?????

In my closet this morning I see....... Adidas, Reebok, Asic, Converse, Columbia boots, Nocona boots, Dockers, Sketchers, Sperry Topsiders and some K-mart flip flops.

Any kid that picks a college based on his flippin shoes - I DON'T WANT!

REALLY?? This is a THING?????

Apr 10, 2015 01:02 PM #68

@JayHawkFanToo

I'm a dullard.

@nuleafjhawk Is your middle name Imelda?

Apr 10, 2015 01:13 PM #69

@wissoxfan83 ( i left the 9" heels off that list...hehe )

Apr 10, 2015 01:48 PM #70

@nuleafjhawk said:

Is this shoe thing really a ............THING?

Unfortunately, brand loyalty is a thing - a real thing and it is, in my opinion, what makes the shoe sponsorship of teams so sinister at their core. I'd be willing to bet that of all the accoutrements that make up an athletic uniform the shoes are the things that kids (and anyone for that matter) would be least willing to compromise.

I don't think it's necessarily a hipness thing or cache sort of thing (though I'm sure there is a component to that) so much as a comfort thing. Case in point: my dad. In his younger days, my dad was an avid runner. He would only wear New Balance brand shoes as they were the only brand he found that had a wide enough toe. I can't tell you how many times he lost the big toenail on either foot before discovering New Balance. From that point on, he refused to buy any other type of running shoe, understandably so.

My point is simply that there are reasons people buy Pepsi instead of Coke; why people are Mac devotees instead of Windows users; why people drive a Ford instead of a Chevy. It's a personal choice and it's awfully difficult to sway those choices once an allegiance has been developed. It's why advertisers spend such an inordinate amount of money trying to influence us.

Interestingly, the reasons for brand loyalty are not always completely rational. If Wade Boggs taught me anything about baseball, it's that superstition also plays a huge part in sports. If memory serves, he ate chicken before every game because of a particularly successful game early in his career after such a meal. If a kid has worn Nike shoes his whole life and has experienced success, he may not want to jeopardize that success by changing any part of his routine, including what shoes he wears. The old Spike Lee/Mars Blackmon Nike ads spoke to this with the "Is it the shoes?" refrain.

I'm not saying it's right or that I like the shoe monopolies, but there is definitely a "thing" there. Maybe the solution is to get Pepsi or Coke to sponsor college athletics and let the kids wear whatever shoes they are comfortable wearing. Then, perhaps, we would see fewer college choices being dictated by footwear and more by things that most of us would look for in a school: coaches, academics, atmosphere, fan base, etc. Of course, instead of the hat ceremony at press conferences, we would then be subject to the Pepsi challenge. I think I could live with that.

Apr 10, 2015 01:54 PM #71

@tis4tim Good points. Plus, you reminded me I have two pair of New Balance in a closet in the other room.

Apr 10, 2015 02:10 PM #72

@nuleafjhawk

"Is this shoe thing really a ............THING?"

The shoe thing is beyond a real thing... I've spent some time in the hood, and I still have some "hoodies" (bros from the hood).

"Uniform" is king in the hood. Clothes... shoes... they identify you with a group, and it gives you a huge part of your identity. Kids are killing other kids for their shoes, or just to eliminate their competing status.

Guess what these kids do when they get a hold of some cash? They buy shoes. I can tell you all some insane stories, very hard to believe, but true. Here is an example. A kid from the hood sold drugs and took his profits and invested in shoes. He lived with his mom, and suddenly they were homeless. He wanted to stay with his mom to protect her, but he had to worry about his investment... his shoes. So he paid a guy "rent" to live in his van with his shoes. And he never leaves his "vault" without having another bro stay there to guard his shoes.

Is this shoe thing real? Now you get a taste of why Nike and Adidas drop "Bs" (billions of dollars) on marketing. To obtain status. This is all about status... and it is all KING in the hood!

You can always tell which NBA players come from the hood. When they cash that first check, before they buy their momma a house, or drop some dough on their entourage... they buy shoes. They've had their eye on some collectables way before making it to the league. And when they buy a house, the most important part of the house is their closet to hold their shoes... hundreds of pairs.

Apr 10, 2015 02:28 PM #73

@drgnslayr WOW. I always knew I was naive, but I had no idea how flippin far in the sand my head was buried.

I still think it's stupid. It's actually beyond that, buy I can't think of a proper word to describe it. " Mizzoulish " ??

Apr 10, 2015 03:14 PM #74

@wissoxfan83 Imelda? I dont get it.

Apr 10, 2015 03:16 PM #75

@nuleafjhawk I dunno Nuleaf, this is @jaybate-1.0 's theory. It seems to hold credence based on the fact that Nike is a billion dollar industry giant and we all should know what follows money? Power. And what follows power? Corruption!!! Its that whole absolute power/corruption verse we've heard time and again. I think its very valid.

Apr 10, 2015 04:26 PM #76

@JayHawkFanToo You do know that redstate is a website, don't you? A causal one sentence about global warning? You had a similar post on another topic at about the same time. I don't really care what your political opinions are. They are yours. This is not the place to air them.

Apr 10, 2015 04:32 PM #77

@Lulufulu

There was a dictator in the Philippines back in the 1980's Fernando ? Marcos. His wife was infamous for owning like 8000 pairs of shoes. I was referring to that.

Apr 10, 2015 04:34 PM #78

@wissoxfan83 I'm working on that.

Apr 10, 2015 04:37 PM #79

@sfbahawk

Although I'd probably count as a dullard in your book too, I agree this isn't the place to bring politics into things. The board will never be the same if we do.

Apr 10, 2015 05:01 PM #80

@sfbahawk

If you read all my posts from the time I joined this forum right after it started, you will see that I have mentioned on many occasions that politics should not be discussed, and this Forum should be strictly sports; more specifically KU Sports. In fact, and based on my complaining, @jaybate-1.0 at one point suggested adding "999" or something along those lines to threads not related to KU basketball.

I did not make a political point; my comment was in relation to the topic (being discussed at the time) of altering figures to fit different agendas and, in my humble opinion, global warming is a good example of that. I personally (as an engineer/scientist) do not see it as political issue, although I has been used in that context, but as an issue of professional and scientific integrity and my post was solely in that context. You will note that I indicated my willingness to discuss the subject it in a different forum (of your choice).

Again, I would respectfully suggest that you review my history on the subject before you pass judgement on me.

P.S. I do know what redstate.com is and I do not subscribe to it or any other publication that places labels. I get my news from several sources and then I form my own opinion.

Apr 10, 2015 05:15 PM #81

@nuleafjhawk

"I still think it's stupid. It's actually beyond that, buy I can't think of a proper word to describe it. " Mizzoulish " ??"

Hood culture is a culture. It derives from many things. The more you know about it, the more it exposes why things are the way they are. All cultures have an organic process of how they got to be the way they are. There is an explanation for all of it.

We are all enriched by cultures all over the world, and hood culture has exposed many hardships from the struggle... but it has also given us all many great gifts, too. Music, dance, sports, art, food, written word, perspective... we have all been enriched by catching a taste from those who have shared their world with us.

Apr 10, 2015 05:59 PM #82

@Lulufulu

Hypothesis.

It just lets the facts attract around it and support it , or refute it. Nothing more. Nothing less.

What concerns me most is that I have seen no alternative hypotheses attracting more facts that support them. Hypotheses are supposed to include facts, not exclude them. Hypotheses that do not include remarks by Rick Pitino or exclude other facts and observations seem not inclusive enough. And I am for including all remarks by rick Pitino and others. Hypotheses are supposed to include the facts and be supported by the facts as they emerge. I am happy to consider other hypotheses that include the facts and fit the facts as they emerge. Seeking verified explanation is fun.

Apr 10, 2015 06:23 PM #83

@drgnslayr

Your generosity of spirit is commendable, but I would argue that we were not enriched by Nazi Culture and certain other extremist forms of virulent culture. Culture and cultural diversity are our friend, but even they should be held accountable. Persons raped and murdered and addicted to drugs by gang bangers, and organized crime, are not enriched by gang culture, or The culture of organized crime.

Otherwise, I agree with you we can enriched by good faith interaction with all forms of human culture.

Apr 10, 2015 06:28 PM #84

@jaybate-1.0

I finally found it. Here is the entire transcript of Pitino's comments on the subject; I am going to guess that they can be interpreted in many different since they are ambiguous enough...although I find it hard to believe that he just found out about the shoe company's influence.

Anything in particular on your list?

I think we need to deal with the ... What I personally don't like, and I've seen it over the past five years, I don't like -- I can't recuirt a kid because he wears Nike in the AAU circuit. I mean that's -- I've never heard of such a thing, and it's happening in our world. Or, he's on the Adidas circuit so the Nike schools don't want to recruit him. I never thought that shoes would be the reason you wouldn't recruit players. It's a factor. I think we need to deal with that. We need to get the shoe companies out of the lives of young athletes. We need to get it back to where parents and coaches have more of a say than peripheral people. That's easier said than done. I don't know how to do that. That's like trying to get the runners out of the game. We try our best to do that, but I don't know how to do that.

Do you think you're at a disadvantage not being a Nike school?

I think our pool shrinks. Our pool shrinks. But, that being said, in the last few years we're having some of the best recruiting classes that we've had in the last 13. It almost makes us -- I realized looking back on it how much time and effort I've wasted because I wouldn't believe what I just said.

Are there players who specifically said they can't come play for you because you're not ...

No, they don't say they can't come, but the outside influences from the shoe companies and the AAU coaches know that if that kid goes to an Adidas school, he may not get renewed by Nike. It's the outside influence. It's not actually the kid who cares. But you know, if you guys are influential in a young person's life and you said, 'boy, you should really go to Kentucky, they're a Nike school.' He doesn't have to say a Nike school, he just has to say Kentucky. Everybody's in that court because you're all working for that shoe company. I think that's a bigger problem than whether you guarantee scholarships, but nobody wants to talk about that. Why nobody wants to talk about that is because it's money related. Any time it's money related, schools -- University of Louisville makes a lot of money through Adidas, so you don't really ... I think it needs to be cleaned up.

I've always wished the NCAA would do it -- I've written letters about it -- I wish the NCAA would run the camps in the summertime so then everybody gets explained to them all the NCAA rules -- what you can do, what you can't do -- by the NCAA. So they run the camps and they tell us when to go in and watch and they legislate all of that. That would be a great way to spend all that money, that war chest that they have. I don't think they want to do that.

And by the way, I'm not speaking about a personal situation that just happened to us. That really wasn't the case, believe it or not. I'm talking about, in the last five years, I've seen a tremendous change on this. Believe me, it's a very competitive thing by these shoe companies to get players. I mean they're going out and recruiting like us in the summertime. 'Let's get this kid in EYBL and this kid in Adidas Nation,' and they're competing like us for recruits. It's very tough to address because our pockets are lined with their money.

Do you think there's a relationship between their money and high school players?

I think the high school players are all getting shoes and they're all getting uniforms to play in the AAU circuit. I don't think there's anything illegal, but they're all getting shoes and apparel and the AAU programs are getting taken care of by the shoe companies. We all know that. It's out in the open. Some of these AAU programs get paid a lot of money to run their program. There are the elite programs, and some of them are very good, very good. But what I've learned is, if I go in and there's a Nike program and they're getting paid a grand sum of money, Louisville's not going to come in and recruit them. It doesn't make sense because they might get that grand sum of money down the road if they don't go to those schools. Same thing with Adidas. If they're an Adidas school, the Nike ...

I just learned this. I never believed it until the last couple of years. That's a problem that needs more addressing, not to go off on this tangent, but that's a problem that's really prevalent in basketball.

Do you think there are a lot of other coaches who feel the same way?

I'm sure the Nike coaches don't feel that way (laughs). Because they're winning the battle.

**Why have you been successful (recruiting) despite that advantage?
**
It took me a long time to realize who I'm going after and we've finally done a good job with that.

So you stay away from Nike kids?

No, not stay away, we just know the programs that are really influenced -- the really marquee programs -- that are influenced by them. It's not just Nike. Under Armour's a big player in this now. Under Armour's become the second-largest (apparel) company in the United States, right? They're competing and competing hard. I wish it wasn't there. I think it's going to be there a long, long time, as long as we're getting paid by those schools.

If that's the case, then how do you adjust long-term? Do you recommend going to Nike?

No, no. I don't think that's the answer. The answer for us is to find out what athlete is involved in which AAU program. How loyal is he to that AAU program? What outside influences in that program push him and direct him toward Nike schools. So we have to do our homework and be very diligent. Obviously the last two years, we've been very diligent because we've had great success.

Before the new Adidas deal, was that something you addressed with Tom or anybody in the athletic department?

I have my own choices to make for which shoe company. I'm sort of separate from the university in that regard, though we're sort of tied in together. I'm very comfortable where we are with Adidas because we're having great success. If I didn't feel we were having great success, I would recommend that we go with Under Armour or go with Nike, whoever it may be. It was my fault, not the shoe company or the university, that I didn't do a good enough job finding out and researching how big certain factors are with certain people. It's nobody's fault but my own.

Is there a concern, being one of the higher-profile programs, that whatever comes that way that you're connected with them vs. Nike?

As long as you do your homework, you're fine. I didn't do my homework. The shoe companies aren't to blame. They're playing the ultimate competitive game. Who can be No. 1? Right now, Nike's No. 1. Under Armour's making a push. They're competing like we're competing. We've got to make sure that we know that it doesn't matter to the kids. Those kids are the kids we want to go after.

FWIW, this is what Rob Dauster of College Basketball talk on NBC had to say:

I have a couple thoughts on this:

  • There’s zero chance that I believe that Rick Pitino found out about shoe company influence in the last five years. Zero.

  • I think the influence that these shoes companies is a bit overblown. Andrew Wiggins, the prospect with the most marketability that has come through high school ranks since LeBron and Kevin Durant, was a Nike kid all through high school. He went to Kansas, an Adidas school. In this year’s recruiting class for Kansas includes Cliff Alexander and Kelly Oubre, both of who were Nike kids and are two of the best pro prospects in the Class of 2014. Duke just earned a commitment from Chase Jeter, who played his AAU ball with the same Adidas program that produced Shabazz Muhammad.

  • That said, I believe that what Pitino is saying about shoe companies is precisely what happened with Blakeney. The kid picked an Adidas school, the people around him — those that make their money from the swoosh — were not happy about it, Blakeney decommits. It’s not a pretty situation, but I’m not sure it’s the epidemic Pitino makes it out to be.

Lots of "food for thought" for the thought foodies...:)

Apr 10, 2015 06:37 PM #85

Quite a read.

Apr 10, 2015 09:21 PM #86

@wissoxfan83 Dang, thats a lot of shoes.

Apr 10, 2015 09:49 PM #87

Remember this was a thread about Perry Ellis and the arguments for his leaving/staying??
Yikes !

Apr 10, 2015 10:02 PM #88

@Bosthawk

This link ↗has most everything you need to know about Perry staying or leaving.

One question, if Perry leaves, does KU become a better option for some of the top players since it frees 30+ minutes per game for the 3/4 position?

Apr 10, 2015 10:08 PM #89

@jaybate-1.0

"Persons raped and murdered and addicted to drugs by gang bangers, and organized crime, are not enriched by gang culture, or The culture of organized crime."

I couldn't agree more. Everyone has to be held accountable, especially when it comes to crime. The criminal aspect of the hood is the hardship aspect I mentioned. No one knows more about being victimized than those who live in those neighborhoods. It is part of the overall situation that actually entices more people to become criminal, like after everything they ever worked to own is gone and they are at a very raw survival moment in their lives. I'm dealing with a kid right now who lives with his grandma and when she was hospitalized everything from their unit was stolen. They didn't even have a cup to drink from. I'm busy finding as much work for this kid as I can because they have to survive, and if he can't get it by finding work, he'll have to get it in another way. Most of us have options even in our lowest moments, but not everyone is blessed with options, often for many reasons, it isn't just an issue of race.

The largest hurdle in the hood is education. Kids who take on the challenge and develop their minds will end up having an opportunity to leave the hood, or stay and fight to improve it. Good decision-making is the biggest reason why people remain down.

So when the NCAA pulled the plug on Cliff it hit home with me. Part of it was that it hurt his chances to make a living at basketball... another side of it was he just lost his free-ride to an education.

Apr 10, 2015 10:39 PM #90

@JayHawkFanToo

Thank you very much for posting this. It was because of the portion of this you directed me to previously that I evolved my hypothesis into the ShoeCo-agent complex and the entirety of this supports having done so, plus raises the issue if there were another piece to add to the ShoeCo-agency complex. Excellent virtual shoe leAther on your. Thanks again!!

P.S.: what I am trying to say here is that this evidences the existence of a shoe co-agency complex and that it exerts influence to significant but as yet not transparent degree. Further, this complex does not seem to explain on it's own the entirety of the apparent phenomena of biased officiating and seeding and anomalous talent stacking. Therefore, one infers another element of the complex may be waiting to be found and so far everything appears to be legal is the hypothesis has assumed.

Apr 10, 2015 11:18 PM #91

@drgnslayr

Since in principal the purpose of a university is to educate persons and develop them for society, it seems to me, as a layman, questionable whether the NCAA, the University, and the athletic department, fulfilled their function to Cliff Alexander, if he committed no crime and if he did not take out a loan. It appears at the very least not fair

Apr 11, 2015 01:47 AM #92

@jaybate-1.0

It seems very unfair to Cliff. None of us know his family dynamics. We can only speculate if he "should have known better." Or.. did he know better? Did she know better?

It feels like Kansas didn't hold up their end, but we can only speculate. I have a hard time Kansas athletics hasn't thought of this before and has a policy for preventing as much as possible. I'm not going to point a finger at anyone, only worth mentioning that the system, somewhere, is broken. Cliff shouldn't be stuck out in the cold.

Apr 11, 2015 02:03 AM #93

@drgnslayr wonder if we will ever know? What a pain for all to live w/!

Apr 11, 2015 02:33 AM #94

@drgnslayr
I am going back to what I've posted before. My daughter plays club ball AAU tourneys and even at BIG tourneys in middle school she had to watch a NCAA rules video. Now there is no real WNBA money or shoe money here for women but the rules are the same for men . Now we go to high school tourneys and these videos are required at most every tourney, including parents signing documents they know the rules.

So as Bill Self states it is not against the rules to talk to an agent. But extra benefits ARE illegal and what ever scumbag got involved with Cliff/or his family deserves to have a court order stating he can NEVER have contact with an amateur athlete again.

Apr 11, 2015 12:55 PM #95

@jaybate-1.0 So you're saying its an hypothesis? ;)

Apr 11, 2015 11:47 PM #96

http://jayhawk-talk.com/2015/04/10/perry-ellis-and-the-nba-and-kesha/ ↗

Apr 12, 2015 01:17 AM #97

@wrwlumpy The longer he waits, the more I lean towards him leaving.

But I fundamentally disagree with the writer. I would agree if he averaged 18 and 8 this year.

Ellis is a classic in between player. But with the same size of Marcus Morris, and noticeably more explosion, why can't he get drafted like Marcus Morris. Obviously, it depends on the draft class. But not draft class has a the massive chasm of 14th lottery to middle in the second round.

Stay another year, show consistent explosiveness, handles, and outside touch and he is definitely a first round guaranteed contract.

Apr 12, 2015 01:18 AM #98

@wrwlumpy Huh, that guy makes a good point. But, conversely if Perry wont change his draft stock no matter what he does. Why not come back another year? Getting picked in the second round is no guarantee at all. Your fighting for a spot on the roster with everyone else in the second round, free agency, etc. Perry is imo, too slow to be an NBA 3 and too small to be an NBA 4. Unless he gets picked by the perfect team, he'll end up as a D leaguer.
Maybe its just my bias, but I would like to see him on Senior night at KU.

Apr 12, 2015 11:53 AM #99

@JayhawkRock78

Right on!

Apr 12, 2015 12:17 PM #100

@wrwlumpy

I don't think the writer of that story has much of a grip on the reality of this situation.

This idea he presents... that if a player isn't getting better, he is getting worse is silly. First off, Perry has improved every year as a Jayhawk. This past year he established his perimeter shot. The idea that NBA scouts peg a player early and leave him in the same spot is just 100% false. We constantly hear about scouts attending games. They constantly update their player evaluations because players change. Heck... some of them are even still growing in college (height). Players blossom all the time. All ex-players are familiar with either themselves (or others) that suddenly hit another gear. Sometimes it is a real puzzle when it comes. I hit my biggest gear change in my late 20s.

If Perry leaves now, he will leave in a bad draft year for players that aren't in that very top tier. There are just too many quality players coming out this year, most are not seniors. These guys typically get picked first. If Perry goes in the second round (or even third) the chances are completely likely he ends up in d-league... $25,000 for a 50-game season. That is a heavy opportunity price to pay for not sticking it out at KU and earning his degree and also having the spot light for one more year to try to lift his position.

The "player is getting better, or getting worse" card here is played around the idea of Perry QUITTING Kansas. It should be a motivational tool for Perry to absorb and fight that much harder to improve his game and STAY at Kansas and not be a quitter.

Euro-ball is a complete crap shoot. It is a false panacea that is always presented as an option for guys who can't cut it in the league. Truth is, few American players make it overseas. Few players are cut out to go abroad and "do it alone." The sacrifices of being out there alone is the first big hurdle. The cultural differences are another huge hurdle. And the basketball infrastructure is the third hurdle that makes it hard for players to pick up. These college kids need to hear the reality about it before thinking it is their definite backup plan.

Personally, I think Perry would be nuts to leave early. I view him as a very smart young man so I'm betting he returns.

Apr 13, 2015 09:17 PM #101

According to Matt Scott there is going to be an announcement about a player tonight at the Banquet.

Apr 13, 2015 10:59 PM #102

@Statmachine Hopefully it's Perry coming back, 'cause there isn't a third round of the draft.

Apr 13, 2015 11:03 PM #103

@Statmachine Ohhhhhh reeeaaally?

Apr 14, 2015 01:46 AM #104

@dylans @Statmachine.Just posted on kusports.com Perry is coming back for his Sr year. And all the people said........Amen !!

Apr 14, 2015 02:11 AM #105

@globaljaybird Yep, the twitter verse is blazing about Perry coming back. Its official now.

So now we need to get Diallo in here and maybe Ingram or Jaylen. ROCK CHALK FINAL FOUR!

Apr 14, 2015 02:16 AM #106

Does anyone know what is keeping Perry from being a Marcus Morris?

Apr 14, 2015 02:20 AM #107

@globaljaybird
THANK YOU PERRY. I HOPE YOUR LAST YEAR AT KU PAYS BIG DIVIDENDS FOR YOU ALL THE WAY AROUND!

Apr 14, 2015 02:51 AM #108

@JhawkAlum maybe he'll make that next step this coming year.

Apr 14, 2015 06:25 PM #109

@Crimsonorblue22 I sure hope so! I see the same skill set with better explosion!

Apr 14, 2015 06:49 PM #110

@JhawkAlum

"Does anyone know what is keeping Perry from being a Marcus Morris?"

Good question. I think Perry is working towards that. I know he hasn't advanced as fast as we all wanted him to... but we should consider the glass half full because he has advanced just fast enough to be a crucial part of our team and hang around all 4 years! We always say we want 4 year guys?! Here is a 4-year guy. If he had advanced his game just a bit faster, he might not be back next year and finish his degree off-campus.

Perry has made a very steady improvement all 3 years he has been a Jayhawk. He is going to advance his game this year, too... maybe even take the biggest leap in his game because he knows this is it for his NBA tryout! Plus... Perry knows the role of seniors. And he is a true Jayhawk so he wants to leave behind a legacy. He will be reaching for the record books.. not just to prove himself but by focusing on team goals.

I do believe we will see a very different Perry Ellis this year... and it is all good!

Apr 14, 2015 06:55 PM #111

@drgnslayr I like your enthusiasm! I just don't think he possesses the attitude of taking over a game like Marcus Morris did.

Apr 14, 2015 07:02 PM #112

@JhawkAlum

I don't really see Marcus as an alpha dog. He didn't even want to sign with a NBA team without his brother on the same team (and vice-versa).

I do think Marcus is stronger than Perry and uses his body better to create scoring space. That is a huge factor for Perry and he should be working on that.

Apr 14, 2015 07:15 PM #113

@drgnslayr Marcus could also rip someone's head off if he so desired! I'm hoping he didn't!