🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Self has been successful (30 win seasons) with two short guards only when he has had a dominant, do everything 3, and productive bigs, and one of the short guards was a draft choice capable of playing for an NBA champion twice. Otherwise, Self's 30 win teams are long at one, or both guards.

Inference 1: Selden plays two and Svi plays 3, if Svi has matured physically.

Inference 2: Devonte is a 2 only to go small and against pressure.

So much depends on Svi it's scary. If he were a great one, the team could get to 30 even with the committee of Diallo and Lucas at 5.

If the team has to go small with Frank AND Devonte, it means a third straight mid 2o-win season.

Self's discussions of playing with small guards sounds a bit like reminiscing to me -- things sound a little bit better than perhaps they really were. He talked about it last pre-season too, I think mainly because he also had CF.

I've wondered a little about moving Selden to the three and getting him away from any real hint of ballhandling -- leaving the 1-2 rotation between Mason, Graham, and Svi. That's what I would do. The "big wing" comment Self made (and that I reference regularly) has always stuck with me.

I do think you are right. High achievement this season rides on Svi to a great degree.

@jaybate-1.0 So much depends on Svi because we're through depending on Selden. If Selden were what we hoped when he was recruited, we wouldn't be talking about 2 short guards.

By the way, Chalmers is "short" but 4 inches taller than Frank.

@ParisHawk

Chalmers and Devonte are about the same height, either in KU inches, or the English system, right?

Re: Frank, it's going to be interesting to see if he is and taller than 5-9 Nic Moore.

@jaybate-1.0 said:

Chalmers and Devonte are about the same height

Chalmers 6'2", Graham 6'0".
RussRob 6'1", Frank 5'11".

So let's meet in the middle: +4 inches total for the Champs.

This just underscores your point: when have we succeeded with two guards that short?

@HighEliteMajor

I’ve wondered a little about moving Selden to the three

In that case what about rebounding? We can't expect Diallo to get every rebound every minute...

@ParisHawk said:

@jaybate-1.0 So much depends on Svi because we're through depending on Selden. If Selden were what we hoped when he was recruited, we wouldn't be talking about 2 short guards.

Actually we would, because if Selden had played to his recruiting ranking from the beginning, he would've already been in the NBA and KU would've had 3 top 10 picks in the 2014 draft.

I know height is always an issue in basketball.... but I'd rather have the best performing 1 and 2 guards on the court at the same time, regardless of height.

If this was the NBA I'd care more about height. Those players are true "pros" who have learned to take advantage of size mismatches and they all (for the most part) can create their own shot, even if a defender is glued to them.

We are talking about college ball and it typically just takes a hand near the face to shut down the offense. Probably about 80% of the players don't even elevate properly on their jump shot.

I'd rather have my guards guard with their feet. Hedge off drives and contest shots by being between their man and the goal.

@jaybate-1.0 Since the season ended I have felt very good about Svi coming in to this season. We know the kid can handle and distribute the ball better than Selden can right now, we know he can shoot it even though we really havent seen too much In Game proof of that. The biggest question is can he hold his own on defense and be able to fight over/under/thru screens and picks. Kid has a year of exp at KU under his belt and he is gaining weight with Hudy-izing. We still got 3 months left in summer and Svi is up 15 lbs. He'll gain more by november if it is necessary.
I dont know why, but I think he will improve exponentially.
@HighEliteMajor makes a point by saying he would rather have Svi play the 2 than Selden.

The Selden question would appear to be a very real quandary for the coaching staff. So long as Wayne does not post any selfies with a nude partner, his starting status is probably safe, at least for the first few non-league contests. The job is still his to lose. If his play is still undependably mercurial, then Svi or Graham must come on like a blockbuster to burst into a starting role by midDecember. As potentially good as Vick might someday be, he still has a lot to learn in order to secure some minutes...unless injury to a starter affects his opportunity.
Greene? Who knows? Current mystery man in the equation. Probably a 14-18 minute man, at best. But if he should regain his early 2014-15 season touch, O My! Would be nice to see the head coach forced to bite back the urge ever again to mutter, "Fools Gold.."

@REHawk

I think Wayne is on Self's "hunch list." He seems to get hunches about certain players and believes if he keeps dumping "belief" (PT) in that player, it will eventually pay off.

I hope his hunch pays off this year!

Typically, I'm not a believer in trying to help guys get their mojo, especially by supporting them with PT. I'd want guys that can get kicked and will jump right back up... so there is no need to put a pillow under them. Pillows only act as an enabler.

Wayne really needs to bring the goods this year. I'd let him know that and then back off. If he doesn't produce I'd start cutting his minutes.

We will probably get a good idea of what Wayne will be like this year by his performance in November. We should notice an improvement in his handles and see that he has added some moves, increasing his tool box. We should see him with relentless energy and staying motivated in games 100% of the time. That is what I am EXPECTING from Wayne. He should have no more freshman jitters or subordinate role ideas left in his body. It's time he stood up in a leadership role.

@ParisHawk

Devonte is 6'2" and when you see him next to Mason he is a good 3"-4" taller. He has decent height to be a NBA PG and in college he could easily play SG as well; he is the only player in the team, IMHO, that has shown he can create his own outside shot. Svi on the other hand is 6'8" and unless he develops Magic-like skills, probably too tall to play PG and he is better suited to play either SG or more likely the SF.

Vick is an interesting case. While his natural position is SG, he appears to have the tools to play PG and also the height (?) and shot to play SF. He could be a player that can be used on various lineups at various positions; the type of versatility Coach Self loves.

I want Wayne to play the 3, even though it probably won't happen. A lineup of Devonte at the point, Frank at the 2, Wayne at the 3, Perry and Diallo would suit me just fine. We have such a deep bench we could sub in and out, so not worried about our "little" guards as much. We could still see a Selden breakout at the 2. Many of us last year ( myself included ), called for Frank to lose time to Devonte in the preseason, which turned out to be the wrong call. I just hope he works on his ball handling, and decision making, and I would prefer if we are getting pressed, he lets Frank/Devonte bring the ball up. We've seen the flashes of the great in the Florida and the Baylor games, and the games where he can't seem to wait to commit a turnover, so maybe we have a budding Tyshawn in mental acuity on our hands. ( the last line is meant out of love from a fan who was taught a great deal of patience from Tyshawn).

As for Svi, I have still been visualizing him as a scared freshman, not as an experienced veteran having added 15 lbs of muscle, and an 18 year's old passion to get better. So, I've been selling him a little short. So, like Scully and Mulder, I want to believe.

@REHawk Agreed. With the WUGs, it'll give CS and kids some chances to work on new things. Quite possibly to push tempo and incorporate the trey so as not to be such foolish metal.

@Lulufulu

"“I think any time you force yourself to play with a short clock, it definitely adds to aggressiveness and adds to guys going and making plays on their own, which sometimes we can get a little stale doing that,” Self said. “I’m excited about us experimenting as coaches. I’m excited about the clock forcing us to play faster and doing some different things defensively. I think it’ll be very good for us moving forward.”"

This is the reason I've been excited for a 30-second shot clock! I want to see urgency in our offense. And I want to see guys forced into creating for themselves.

I want to see a combination of team offense and guys creating for themselves. That is the secret sauce to winning at any level!

I want to believe what CS said above. I want to believe. I just hope he means it.

@ParisHawk I think Graham is at least 6'1, if not 6'2. I was walking around the practice court with him, and he was in our group along with Selden and Evan Manning (as the 2 "water boys"). (I'm 6'0", and definitely was not looking down at Graham ever). Just my observation, fwiw, standing next to the guy.

Also, 20% of males will grow a bit more between the ages of 18-20, and I recall EJ came as a 6'2 guard, then grew to 6'4. It does happen occasionally, and I hope it happens to KU guys. I don't like the "KU inch" thing, so I'd like for our guys to be truly the size they are listed. At least Devonte is.

@ralster

Good info. What is your impression about Mason's height? I know KU lists him as 5'-11" but when standing next to other players like Davonte, he seems closer to 5-'9" than 5'-11".

@JayHawkFanToo Mason was only in AFH 1 day shooting 3s (effortlessly), so didn't get too close to him to judge accurately. One thing about Mason, is when he threw down an alley oop dunk, and got his elbow as high as the rim (2014 preseason game), I knew he had more athleticism and hops than Sherron did...which is a supreme compliment to Mason. Now add the smarts that experience does, and its all good regarding Frank Mason. Sherron is 5'10" (I've met him in person), and I think Mason is the same, but this is just from photos, etc...

@ralster anything about Cliff?

My quiet feeling is that there is a lot of offensive firepower on this team, that is also developed and experienced, in positions 1, 2, 3, 4. The 5 position remains a question mark, but Self will have some options. Putting a top-50 guy like Mickelson as a 5, battling for mpg with Lucas, should yield a serviceable 5, or at least 5-by-committee. Personally, each has different attributes. I want to see Withey-style rim protection, we need that.

Anything that the 2 incoming 6'9 Mickey D's give us will be gravy, and just consider them the CliffReplacementCommittee, is all. They do have talent, but they will be damn raw in this system. Pretty much like Darrell Arthur was as a frosh. Foul-fest. Never put too much stock in frosh in this system. They are gravy only, never cornerstones. Wiggins actually had to cornerstone the identity-less WiggyHawks, and that season ended without any real surprise.

@ralster

"They are gravy only, never cornerstones."

A+

@JayHawkFanToo and @ralster FWIW, I know somebody who has stood next to Mason many times. I am somewhere around 5'-8" to 5'-9" without shoes and the other person is 6' when I am standing by him. He said Frank is just a little shorter than him and not much. So I would say with confidence that he is 5'-10" to 5'-11".

@jayhawkbychoice you guessed it, since I never got close enough to Mason to judge, cant really offer an accurate judgement. As mentioned, my guess is as good as your's/anybody's since Im only looking at pictures (regarding Frank...).

Hehe, maybe this season's end (or next's) Frank can sign a "meaningful" autograph for KU people in-person, and we can size him up then...

@ralster I can't give up my source, but he's very reliable. He showed me with his hand on his forehead where Frank is to him. Even in my work boots he says Frank is way taller than me. Very reliable! Except at getting me tickets, lol.

@ralster

Of course we know that Sherron has a condition that makes it very difficult if not impossible to keep his weight down. Can you image the insane athleticism he would have had playing 30 pounds lighter?

Sherron is one of my all time favorite Jayhawks, period. Frankly, he+Mario delivered that Miracle 3, as we credit the assist on a timely shot as well as the shot itself. Sherron's own 3 moments earlier is equally huge, and he was assisted on that by none other than Russell Robinson. What guard play!

Until a team proves better, the 2008 Jayhawks define Self's best team ever. Each guy on that team was a key piece. All 8 or 9 of them, which is a perfect way to put it. Getting the ultimate W matters.

@drgnslayr Wayne had his minutes trimmed some toward the end of last year. When Self played both Devonte and Frank he substituted Devonte for Wayne. This seemed to be particularly true late in the second half of games.

@sfbahawk Ball handling, ball protection, and aggression. Wayne needs to watch film of DWade, who handles the ball, and rarely turns it over. If Marcus Smart wasn't a head case, he was a good example of an NBA-sized guard. Hard to stop 220lbs. Wayne's got a chance to be really special now...

@drgnslayr Agreed!! Its not like CS has to hold his cards close right now. They aren't hiding a game plan from an opponent yet. Im psyched to see what new sets they will run!

@Crimsonorblue22 I haven't heard anything about Cliff, other than what media has reported. He is gone because they ruled him ineligible, finally. Otherwise, he had said he would have come back for Yr2, which would have been best for all parties. I wish him well.

I think the faster shot clock (24min WUG) and 30sec NCAA, will help the defense, as its simply easier to guard intensely for fewer seconds. It was maddening to see great D for 33sec, then give up a bucket on a buzzer beater in the last 2sec!

Also, the offense will favor experienced players running the sets. Taking a frosh-heavy squad into a 24sec shot clock type of game, only favors the simplistic offensive sets. Now, KY should be fine with 24sec shot clock. Hoiberg's offense would seemingly be unaffected, but he is gone, and now the opposition has to speed up, so that negates some of IowaState's attempts-on-goal advantage, which could have helped mask some of their poor or avg-shooting nights. So, to spin it another way: What is IowaState going to do now? Hoiberg gone, and their possession-advantage now diminished...

And I'm sorry, I'm just not sold on Shaka Smart's "greatness", so I have little fear of Tx Longhorns.

I don't know that I'd limit my projections of an experienced Jayhawk roster to the play of any 1 player? Svi will be great, and the NBA scouts will drool over him, and...yes: he will be yet another NBA lotto pick with a hard-to-pronounce-foreign-name...but he is just 1 guy. Wiggins couldn't carry KU alone, nor could Oubre, McLemore, Henry, Marcus Morris...About the closest we came to having a 1man domination was Thomas Robinson, although he had high quality help from Withey and EJ and Tyshawn, and to a lesser extent, Releford. Even Sherron Collins couldn't do it alone. Or maybe he could have, but was only 80% with a pulled groin vs UNI...

Svi will be awesome, could make us better, and his biggest impact would be IF Self starts him at the 3wing. Why the 3? Because he can rebound. His putbacks around the rim for a mere 17yr old amongst the trees was actually breathtaking. Plus, he can attack better than Oubre. Which allows attention to shift off Wayne/Devonte/Frank, thus creating a 4-headed monster (count Perry at the 4). Similar to 2008, when we could hurt you from all 5 or 4 outta 5 positions...And there is no drop off when you bring Greene or Lucas/Hunter off the bench, or even Bragg/Diallo, depending on who can actually be productive early...

This will be a high-flying show. Svi will be but a part of the overall machine. Every man do their job.

Svi is crucial not because he needs to carry the team, but because the team has a huge hole at 3 if he cannot just be a 12/4 guy and be +3 to +5 on the opposing 3, plus help the short guards. Rush, Xavier, Wigs, Oubre, and Travis achieved the +3 to +5 most games; this is crucial in Self ball, because the opposing team's best player is frequently a 3, and to be a defense driven team, KU has to hold the edge over the three most games. Scoring 25-40 points is just window dressing for draft branding in Self Ball. The key always is the net advantage in scoring. Self only needs 12-14 ppg from any good defender that can hold his man to 8-11 ppg.

But Self Ball HAS to have this +3 to +5 edge at 3, or the guard and big play, even when good on the Sherron/cole teams, is headed toward mid 20 win seasons. The real fulcrum of Self Ball is the 3. He can massage around any weakness, because he is a wily cat, but he can't produce dominant teams without the dominant 3.

At the same time, a dominant 3 is not enough. He has to have good back court and front court players, too. But it's easier to bob and weave past occasional mismatches in front and back court than at the 3. In the high-low, there are two guards and two bigs. These allow re routing front, or back court play to avoid full stop. But there is only one 3. The two wings really are NOT interchangeable on defense. Self recruits dominant 3s for a reason. Losing Jaylen Brown was HUGE, because it made Svi, or Brannen stepping up crucial. And Brannen is odds on for a MEDRED.

So Svi is SOOOOOOOOOO crucial.

@jaybate-1.0 I agree with the logic in your post but I'm not sure Svi, physically matured or not, is the missing link to this team reaching our expectations of them playing at a high level of basketball The last two seasons certainly didn't reach my expectations for a Bill Self team. I've been wanting to post about this for a while now but really didn't know how to say what I see with this group of guys the last couple years. I'll probably get blasted for some of this by members of this site but here it goes.

I've been watching games from the 06-08 seasons to get an idea of how a group of guys should progress through a few years. It seems to me that physical maturity has little to do with it when compared to the mental maturity.

I'm convinced that this group won't meet any expectation until they have a true "coach on the floor" leader. Someone with knowledge of how to play the game, how to run the system Someone who knows, not only their job in the system, but everyone else's too. Someone who can direct the other players into proper position. Someone who can read the other teams offense and defense and call the right play without having to look over to the bench, and can keep coaching and keep the other players in the loop during the game. The 08 team had 3 of those guys, this team has none. I do think the jury is still out on Graham and Svi. But our upper classmen, while I'm hopeful, I don't see it. Go back and watch the old games, every stoppage of play RussRub, Mario, Sherron would be talking and dissecting something going on in the game. Then one would go tell the others what was going on and the other would go tell coaching staff what was going on. Many times you can see one of them call for the ball, take it back up top, and call another play after seeing something wasn't working or after seeing something to take advantage of. They would hold the ball communicate to the other the play and what to do, even pointing and motioning them into position. Among the three of them, they could just look at each other know what to do. Our guys now do none of that. Our senior leader, Perry, seems to have taken a vow of silence or something. Most of our guys look like they don't know what they are supposed to do, never mind everyone else.

I recall somewhere I read (might have been here or some of you from the other site) that the 08 team had like 93 plays at their disposal and that RussRob, Mario, and Sherron had the freedom to call any play they needed to for a given situation! Now that's a soph, 2 jr's (if you count BRush) and a senior. Do any of you really think that our team now knows 93 plays? 45? 30? Frank, Wayne, Devonte, and Greene(?), that's 3 Jr's and Soph.

You mentioned having productive bigs, I contend that if the 08 guards had Lucas and Mickleson, that those guards would make them productive bigs because of their passing ability, play making, on floor coaching and positioning, and great defensive work. Probably not to the extent Shady was at taking over games from time to time, but then again...:)

On the do everything 3, no doubt BRush was a special player. But in one of the 08 tournament games, there was about 5 possessions where BRush took the outlet pass and pushed the ball up the floor. Crossing the half court line, he was at the top of the key, RussRob went one side and Sherron went the other. So BRush was playing the "1" and Sherron was playing the "3" on that possession, and Sherron looked more like a "6'-7" 3" than Oubre did most of last season! :) But it didn't matter anyway, after the ball reversed to the second and third side everyone had rotated through all three guard spots anyway. There has been a lot of talk about who should play the 1,2,3,4,5 and who backs up who. The 08 team had only 2 positions, guard and big! The only difference was which side of the ball you're on. When the ball is on one side of the floor the 5 is low and the 4 is high, then on the other side the 5 goes high and 4 goes low, so it doesn't matter. Now of course, different players could bring different skills to each spot on the floor. For example, Shady would take the 15 footer, but Sasha might be looking to pass from that spot because there are better shots for the team to take than that one. But Sasha still rotated into and out of that spot to make the defense have to move, so he had to know how and what to do at each position. Same thing with the guards! I saw BRush draining 3's off the "elevator play" and he was a so called "3", and we saw the same thing with BMac and he was a "2". It just don't matter, you could run the play for both of them in the same game. They either switch sides for that possession or just run the play the other direction. I'm sure some guys like one side of the floor better than the other and they can go to their "spot" when walking the ball up. But when they pushed the tempo they just went to the closest wing or brought the ball up. They either get a good quick shot, or rotate in and out of their spot as the ball is reversed. This idea that Selden just can't handle switching from a "2" to a "3" is ridiculous. What's the difference? What, one goes for a rebound and one gets back on defense? That's a tough one to figure out! He don't even have to change sides of the floor, just change the number next to his name from a "2" to a "3", it doesn't matter. Someone mentioned that if we go small, then we lose the rebounding from the "3" spot. Wasn't Frank our leading rebounder for much of last season? Just pencil a "3" next to his name when the ball goes up and the other can get back on defense since he can rebound better anyway. :) Another thing, not every position has it's own backup, right? Self usually plays 5 guards and in crunch time only 4. That means someone has to learn to play more than one numbered position, right? I see these projected lineups for next year, and if Mason and Graham can both play the "1" or "2", then why in the world can't Selden play the "2" or "3"? There just isn't that much difference. Self needs four guys who can at least half a$$ handle the ball enough to rotate through the entire play. Oh, on a side note, the 08 guys actually ran the weave effectively...well sometimes. It was cool to see them do though. They would change tempo, hesitate, cut it off short, and really pinch the perimeter defenders together at the top of the key. When they got them all bunched up, one wouldn't come to meet the ball and instead get a pass out to the wing and have a free lane to the paint. Cool to see work. That was probably the last time, lol.

One last issue, the non-business like culture of this team. ralster mentioned in a post above the two 3's that Mario and Sherron hit in the title game. Go watch that and look at the reactions on their faces, and look at the bench's reaction. Mario and Sherron just looked like that's what they're supposed to do, that's all. Got back on defense and kept playing. The bench, the players stood up and pumped a fist in the air or clapped, and then sat down. The coaches, they clapped and then went back to business. Self stood up to start barking out orders for the defense. But that's it. Same reactions on several Shady and Sasha lob dunks. Now of course they celebrated and chest bumped with their teammates at time outs or the locker room but not on the floor. But you watch this year, the first 3 Greene hits against Fort Hayes State, he will be jogging back down the floor making gestures like he did something special. Or the first ally oop someone will flex and scream and pretend they are tearing off their shirt. And on the bench, all the players will be falling out of their chairs, acting like they are going to run out on the floor. And there will be Snacks acting like a kids with them. That nonsense is just as bad as Adams eating a fake bowl of cereal...(I do have to admit, that's the goofiest thing I've ever seen :)) But seriously, act like you've been here before. Did they practice those shots and plays? Aren't they suppose to go in? And Snacks doing it...ridiculous.

To finish up, I want to say, that I love our players. Great characters, fun to watch them learn and go through the ups and downs of each season. I just don't expect to see them execute the way the 06-08 teams did. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so. Does this mean they can't win a championship? Of course not! A lot of it depends on match ups and having things fall the right way. It's just the basketball playing won't be a thing of beauty like it was in 08. Everybody go back and watch those games. It's amazing the difference.

Rock Chalk!

@jayhawkbychoice

I quite agree this team hasn't a prayer of being as good as the 08 team; that team was full of great mature players good enough to have decent pro careers. This team cannot hope to equal it, nor likely will any future KU team. The 08 team was from another era when talented experienced teams were still possible, but even then improbable.

But this team has to have Svi be a dominant 3 to be even a very good team in this new era. Svi is crucial.

Fortunately for this team, it will never meet a team as good as the 08 team this season. So if Svi developed rapidly, it could at least back into a FF the way MSU did. Probably couldn't beat a stack, but it could get to a FF.

@jayhawkbychoice said:

@jaybate-1.0 I agree with the logic in your post but I'm not sure Svi, physically matured or not, is the missing link to this team reaching our expectations of them playing at a high level of basketball The last two seasons certainly didn't reach my expectations for a Bill Self team. I've been wanting to post about this for a while now but really didn't know how to say what I see with this group of guys the last couple years. I'll probably get blasted for some of this by members of this site but here it goes.

I've been watching games from the 06-08 seasons to get an idea of how a group of guys should progress through a few years. It seems to me that physical maturity has little to do with it when compared to the mental maturity.

I'm convinced that this group won't meet any expectation until they have a true "coach on the floor" leader. Someone with knowledge of how to play the game, how to run the system Someone who knows, not only their job in the system, but everyone else's too. Someone who can direct the other players into proper position. Someone who can read the other teams offense and defense and call the right play without having to look over to the bench, and can keep coaching and keep the other players in the loop during the game. The 08 team had 3 of those guys, this team has none. I do think the jury is still out on Graham and Svi. But our upper classmen, while I'm hopeful, I don't see it. Go back and watch the old games, every stoppage of play RussRub, Mario, Sherron would be talking and dissecting something going on in the game. Then one would go tell the others what was going on and the other would go tell coaching staff what was going on. Many times you can see one of them call for the ball, take it back up top, and call another play after seeing something wasn't working or after seeing something to take advantage of. They would hold the ball communicate to the other the play and what to do, even pointing and motioning them into position. Among the three of them, they could just look at each other know what to do. Our guys now do none of that. Our senior leader, Perry, seems to have taken a vow of silence or something. Most of our guys look like they don't know what they are supposed to do, never mind everyone else.

I recall somewhere I read (might have been here or some of you from the other site) that the 08 team had like 93 plays at their disposal and that RussRob, Mario, and Sherron had the freedom to call any play they needed to for a given situation! Now that's a soph, 2 jr's (if you count BRush) and a senior. Do any of you really think that our team now knows 93 plays? 45? 30? Frank, Wayne, Devonte, and Greene(?), that's 3 Jr's and Soph.

You mentioned having productive bigs, I contend that if the 08 guards had Lucas and Mickleson, that those guards would make them productive bigs because of their passing ability, play making, on floor coaching and positioning, and great defensive work. Probably not to the extent Shady was at taking over games from time to time, but then again...:)

On the do everything 3, no doubt BRush was a special player. But in one of the 08 tournament games, there was about 5 possessions where BRush took the outlet pass and pushed the ball up the floor. Crossing the half court line, he was at the top of the key, RussRob went one side and Sherron went the other. So BRush was playing the "1" and Sherron was playing the "3" on that possession, and Sherron looked more like a "6'-7" 3" than Oubre did most of last season! :) But it didn't matter anyway, after the ball reversed to the second and third side everyone had rotated through all three guard spots anyway. There has been a lot of talk about who should play the 1,2,3,4,5 and who backs up who. The 08 team had only 2 positions, guard and big! The only difference was which side of the ball you're on. When the ball is on one side of the floor the 5 is low and the 4 is high, then on the other side the 5 goes high and 4 goes low, so it doesn't matter. Now of course, different players could bring different skills to each spot on the floor. For example, Shady would take the 15 footer, but Sasha might be looking to pass from that spot because there are better shots for the team to take than that one. But Sasha still rotated into and out of that spot to make the defense have to move, so he had to know how and what to do at each position. Same thing with the guards! I saw BRush draining 3's off the "elevator play" and he was a so called "3", and we saw the same thing with BMac and he was a "2". It just don't matter, you could run the play for both of them in the same game. They either switch sides for that possession or just run the play the other direction. I'm sure some guys like one side of the floor better than the other and they can go to their "spot" when walking the ball up. But when they pushed the tempo they just went to the closest wing or brought the ball up. They either get a good quick shot, or rotate in and out of their spot as the ball is reversed. This idea that Selden just can't handle switching from a "2" to a "3" is ridiculous. What's the difference? What, one goes for a rebound and one gets back on defense? That's a tough one to figure out! He don't even have to change sides of the floor, just change the number next to his name from a "2" to a "3", it doesn't matter. Someone mentioned that if we go small, then we lose the rebounding from the "3" spot. Wasn't Frank our leading rebounder for much of last season? Just pencil a "3" next to his name when the ball goes up and the other can get back on defense since he can rebound better anyway. :) Another thing, not every position has it's own backup, right? Self usually plays 5 guards and in crunch time only 4. That means someone has to learn to play more than one numbered position, right? I see these projected lineups for next year, and if Mason and Graham can both play the "1" or "2", then why in the world can't Selden play the "2" or "3"? There just isn't that much difference. Self needs four guys who can at least half a$$ handle the ball enough to rotate through the entire play. Oh, on a side note, the 08 guys actually ran the weave effectively...well sometimes. It was cool to see them do though. They would change tempo, hesitate, cut it off short, and really pinch the perimeter defenders together at the top of the key. When they got them all bunched up, one wouldn't come to meet the ball and instead get a pass out to the wing and have a free lane to the paint. Cool to see work. That was probably the last time, lol.

One last issue, the non-business like culture of this team. ralster mentioned in a post above the two 3's that Mario and Sherron hit in the title game. Go watch that and look at the reactions on their faces, and look at the bench's reaction. Mario and Sherron just looked like that's what they're supposed to do, that's all. Got back on defense and kept playing. The bench, the players stood up and pumped a fist in the air or clapped, and then sat down. The coaches, they clapped and then went back to business. Self stood up to start barking out orders for the defense. But that's it. Same reactions on several Shady and Sasha lob dunks. Now of course they celebrated and chest bumped with their teammates at time outs or the locker room but not on the floor. But you watch this year, the first 3 Greene hits against Fort Hayes State, he will be jogging back down the floor making gestures like he did something special. Or the first ally oop someone will flex and scream and pretend they are tearing off their shirt. And on the bench, all the players will be falling out of their chairs, acting like they are going to run out on the floor. And there will be Snacks acting like a kids with them. That nonsense is just as bad as Adams eating a fake bowl of cereal...(I do have to admit, that's the goofiest thing I've ever seen :)) But seriously, act like you've been here before. Did they practice those shots and plays? Aren't they suppose to go in? And Snacks doing it...ridiculous.

To finish up, I want to say, that I love our players. Great characters, fun to watch them learn and go through the ups and downs of each season. I just don't expect to see them execute the way the 06-08 teams did. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so. Does this mean they can't win a championship? Of course not! A lot of it depends on match ups and having things fall the right way. It's just the basketball playing won't be a thing of beauty like it was in 08. Everybody go back and watch those games. It's amazing the difference.

Rock Chalk!

Dude.
This post length puts you in rare company. ( this company I don't come close to btw.)

@jayhawkbychoice Thought yours was a great post. You described what made the 08 squad so special: experience! They knew what to do, and had plenty of reps to do it reliably. As Self described them after the NC win: they were incredibly "efficient".

As we are painfully aware, in this system, it doesn't matter if your name is Wiggins or McLemore or Rush or Arthur or Collins: you wont/cant look as good in Yr1 as you naturally will in Yr2, then in Yr3. I know I'm stating the obvious there, but good execution is more noticeable by its absence in Self's system, compared to other systems, such as Calipari's.

@ralster

But the key point is in this era no one else can be as good in any other system either. Even the great stacks are shadows of the 08 team. 2012 UK did not play dribble drive as well as the 08 Memphis team did. The 2012 UK team could barely beat a 2012 KU team that had zero Mickey Ds.

The game has changed.

It's no longer even just about a few OADs.

It's about the stacks.

And Self only signed 1 OAD and not for lack of trying to sign more.

The asymmetric talent distribution system finally took its full toll.

He is fighting all the way.

He cannot even afford to bring his best coaching staff to WUG. He has to keep them recruiting.

WUG turned out to be anything but a recruiting nugget.

Self is increasingly a great general
caught on the side with inadequate logistics. He keeps finding ways to win battles and to save his out-talented army with skillful tactics and strategic advances to the rear, but the tide of the war is gradually cornering him. His method since 2012 has apparently been to play for time with as many OADs as Adidas lesser conveyor could provide and hope the powers that be eventually altered the system to be more equitable, but it hasn't happened. Instead the stacks spread and the clock was shortened to enhance the advantage of the stacks even further.

The situation is serious.

I believe young Brad Stephens read the writing on the wall and left the college game early.

I believe Donovan fought longer but finally gave up waiting, too.

Pitino broke radio silence about the asymmetry, so we know it's real.

Coach K apparently quit trying to fix things and appeared to game the situation to set his total w record and rack up a few more rings. He appeared to betray the right way guys he once appeared the leader of.

Other right way guys, like Williams, are behind circled wagons, or being routed on all fronts.

The System appears even beginning to clear its wake of those it used expediently early on its own side, like Cal.

To jump shift metaphors, this increasingly appears like @drgnslayr 's basketball Chicago.

Capone is mayor.

Self and his Untouchables are nearly alone.

The going just got tougher.

Basic gangland strategy suggests the wrong way types must want him bad.

To jump shift metaphors again, the revolt of the gladiatorial right way coaches is in disarray, betrayed apparently by one of its own in Durham, but crushed as all armies eventually are, not by betrayal, but by asymmetric logistics.

How long will it be before we hear the call: who is Spartacus?

Or maybe the sound of a cavalry coming?

As usual in regime change, It all depends on who's side Rome is really on this time.

@jayhawkbychoice Very nice post. The " eating the imaginary cereal" line made me laugh, as I've wondered if anyone else thought it looked as weird as I had. Guess that answers it for me. I have been hoping Wayne goes to the 3. and you've given me hope the dream isn't dead.

Can't say who is going to do what, because I just don't know. What I do know is this is a Bill Self team loaded with experienced Seniors, Juniors, and Sophomores. It's just the way he likes it. Should be a fun year.

@KansasComet where have u been? Glad u r back!!

@Crimsonorblue22 I always take a vacation this time of year.

@KansasComet sounds good!

@jaybate-1.0

I think college basketball has, largely, become a game for "stacked" teams. It is the easy way to at least be competitive every year.

But I think we can be just as competitive with guys that are right below OAD status that stick around for a year or two more. And perhaps sprinkle in the OAD here and there. Of course... you can't really tell who will be OAD. People were talking like Selden would be in that group.

I just hope Self never goes for a complete starting team of OADs. It's like watching flunky ball with a bunch of footers. Games are boring with too much young talent that is green behind the ears.

It really is about the fan experience. More knowledgeable fans want to see the entire game executed well. Inexperienced fans just want to see a few show dunks. Experienced fans like to see those, too... but the uber dunks should be the exclamation point to a well-executed play.

I am very excited for this year. I'm so glad we are no longer "one of the youngest teams in college basketball." The past two years have had moments of excitement, blended in with some mediocre Kansas basketball. It all starts with experience at PG. Someone has to lead. We haven't had leadership in quite a while. Maybe Sherron was our last guy to take on the role? Maybe TT in his senior year?

I think what Self has done by bringing in Moore is shear genius on his part. A big "thank you" goes out to Larry Brown for remaining a Jayhawk!

I'm starting to think we are going to see a completely different Frank Mason this year! He is going to soak up the experience playing with Moore and we will all gain a huge benefit from this experience!

Then we have Devonte in the shadows, ready to burst into the spotlight!

@jaybate-1.0 ... embrace these years that we don't have a complete stack! Embrace these years that Self actually has to coach up players in order to win. We still have legitimate Jayhawk basketball. And we are not living strictly off the OADs. I just hope it stays like this in Jayhawkland. I would hate to become another Kentucky!

@JayhawkRock78 Sorry, I haven't been able to post much the last couple months, but have been reading and following everyone daily. I had a lot to get off my mind, lol.

It's not the length of the post, it's the knowledge and logic and entertainment which it contains. And that sir, puts you in the rare company of those who provide that here. That's why I read this site everyday.

@jaybate-1.0

You know... it really isn't about the stacks. It is about finding that one player above the rest. Every year (or two) a single player stands out as completely dominant and able to take over a game.

We faced that experience in 2012. The unibrow was the overwhelming difference for Kentucky. Kentucky this past year did not have that single dominant player.

Who will it be for this coming year?

I know I'm focused on Ben Simmons at LSU. That dude can play!

@jayhawkbychoice

Somehow I had missed your lengthy post until now. Great job!

I think sometimes us fans make a mistake and we put one of our championship teams up on a pedestal and then we like to compare all other teams against them. The thought is that this team is what it takes to win.

Ever since 2008, if you look at all the teams that won March Madness, I can't think of one of those teams that played anything like our 2008 team. I recently went back and watched some of the 2008 team games and I have to admit that it helped remove some of the crimson/blue from my glasses. When I think back, I don't think that team reached near their execution capacity. We were good. And we were deep. And we were the stacked team that year. No way you can compare Memphis to us in talent depth. We often got loose with the ball with TOs. We often had fragmented offensive possessions. Sometimes our defense broke down. Seriously, we should have ran Memphis out of the gym.

Had Chalmers not hit that shot, we would all have a completely different view of that 2008 team. They did have the right pieces... but there were often execution problems. They achieved... but I'm no longer calling them a team that overachieved. I'll save that for our 2012 squad... or Danny and the Miracles.

What we need is our kids to step up. It really is about who can man up quickly. Put everything that isn't vital to Kansas basketball down and focus on ball for the coming year (BTW: academics is part of Kansas basketball!). Someone is going to have to lead.

I totally understand what you were saying when you said back in 2008 Kansas had guards and post players. The only difference was the side... left or right. I agree. That was back when Self looked at basketball in a simpler way. He drew a line down the center and he split the game into a game of symmetric basketball. It worked then. But... we were the dominant team that year. We were not only stacked, but experienced. We should have won it all, almost regardless what we ran.

I believe Self has advanced his coaching significantly since 2008. And though many of us would like to see him adjust his game faster... he does seem to do it on his clock, and that will have to work for us. At least he has made changes to his game. I do believe Self has been helped more by having The Mayor in the league than what any other coach in the league received from this experience. Self has added in several things that don't quite look so symmetric. Twists that are individualized towards the tool box of each player.

And though we still hear phrases like "utility guard" out of Self, he is starting to realize that all guards are not created equal. He realizes now that he must create specific situations to take advantage of the individual skills of his players. Same for in the post. Perry will never be a great "back to the basket" post player. Jamari will never even be close to being able to play with his back to the basket.... but he is very capable of using his foot speed to create a slashing post basket.

@drgnslayr

Agree mature teams are more gratifying (and must be as savor ex for their rarity) and our green bigs Diallo and Bragg will be the weak links, rather than the strengths.

But Kaminski and UW proved that a dominant player cannot get it done now without a stack; that's the sad truth.

Dominant player + stack = recipe for ring in the age of stacks.

Simmons plus the stack at LSU Should win the ring, if Jones can coach a lick.

But Stumpy proved you can't win with a stack and a Dom, if you are an average coach still leArning.

@ralster Exactly, right. The team efficiency, when applied to a graph, should be a line trending upward as the years go by. This season our core guys are all Jr's and Sr's, many of whom have started or played big minutes the past two seasons. Do you think their efficiency is trending upward? How does the trajectory of that trend line compare to the other good teams of the past?

I mean we're talking all summer about hiding our 6'-5" Jr., who has started every game since he's been here, on offense because we know there are better options but Self will probably still play him. And this is what really gets me, he was higher ranked coming out of high school than anyone on the 08 team! So what's going on here? Is it lack of coaching? There was a lot of talk 2 seasons ago about dumbing down the playbook because we were so young. Has the dumbed down playbook just reduced the "efficiency trajectory", or will the players that stay ever catch up? Are the players we have capable of catching up? And if not, why recruit them?

@jaybate-1.0

"But Kaminski and UW proved that a dominant player cannot get it done now without a stack; that’s the sad truth."

Wisconsin really blew that game. There were moments when they didn't play like a senior team.

I've become a big Badger fan... but Frank didn't take care of business. Okafor should have never been even a tiny presence in this game. Frank should have continued to force the fouls, but he backed off. Some say they just didn't have the focus after beating Kentucky.

Maybe they were tired... or whatever. They seemed to be most focused on coming to this tournament to beat Kentucky rather than walk with the trophy.

I know Ratface impacted the officiating in the second half. But still, UW was the superior team with the experience and they seemed to get out-hustled in the second half. They lost their mojo.

UCONN the year before did it without any kind of stack, against a totally stacked UK....

@KansasComet Your right, it SHOULD be a fun year. But...if it's true that the 08 team knew 93 plays, or options on plays, and had the efficiency to beat a stacked Memphis; does this years team give any indication that they could even run say, 30 plays efficiently? I hope so but I'm not holding my breath.

@drgnslayr

I didn't want complicate the thread, but the refs apparently selected the winner of all FINAL FOUR games.

This did not appear to be a remotely legit Final Four, so In a way neither of our assertions matter.

Poor Selden. Where's the love?

Geez guys. So he didn't quite live up to the OAD expectations? It happens. He still wasn't bad. He played pretty good defense, and his freshman numbers weren't that bad. Yes his sophomore season was far from stellar. But maybe it was the Sophomore Jinx. Or maybe he was trying to hard. I know some mocked and commented on some of his missed dunks. Yet I remember him trying to make some dunks that most guys could only dream about. Not making accuses but I think he was trying to hard. Also last year he was really bulked up. Hudy really worked him over. Maybe just maybe he needed an adjustment period?

Either way I think Selden will be Golden this year.

SVI is the mystery card as @jaybate-1.0 pointed out. I would love to say he'll be the man and I do believe he will be the man. Yet there are ??? marks that not even I can ignore. However I'm rolling the dice here. I'm all in. This KU team is going to be tough, and with a little luck they'll be knocking on the door of greatness. And I'm not just talking about a NC. Yes dare I say undefeated? I know crazy talk but you know what I looked in the mirror today and said to myself your crazy. My daughter confirmed my assumptions at the breakfast table. ;)

No all kidding aside. I feel with the WUG and all those extra practice giving KU a head start over everybody else will give the two pieces KU really needs extra time to develop. Bragg and Diallo. Last year's team less than stellar performance (us KU fans are so spoiled) wasn't because of guard play. If you know what I mean? If my assumptions and dreams are to be correct. Not only does Diallo need to step in a hurry, but so does Bragg.

@DoubleDD smart daughter!!😉

@drgnslayr I always thought that we win that game if we would have forced unibrow to beat us alone. Much like we did against Durant and Beasley in 07-08. Unibrow's passing ability out of double teams is what got us so far behind. We could locked down everyone else and forced unibrow to score 40 (which he never had) over a true 7' footer playing him straight up (which he had never faced before). Instead we let Jones and Lamb beat us.

@jayhawkbychoice

Good idea.

My thoughts were to feed the low post and force contact and draw fouls. What made the unibrow so effective on defense was the long space he could make up to contest a shot and without fouling. Get in the low post and take shots into his body and see how he would have done. Lots and lots of shot fakes and motion fakes. Force the contact, even if we lose a guy or two, it was a trade worth making.

This is what Wisconsin failed it. Okafor should have had no presence in that game. Frank backed off and Okafor was able to return and have an impact.

@drgnslayr Yeah, we just didn't have the post depth that year. That was probably the reason for all the double teaming early in that game. In 08 we had 4 quality bigs and 20 fouls to beat the hell out of Hansbrough.

@DoubleDD

I luv Wayne and I suspect he will improve to an all league first team guy.

@jaybate-1.0 I believe you're right on. The shoeco/agent/runner complex has the ability to stack anywhere it wants to. And when looking at Pitino's comments, it seems that the NCAA can allow or disallow this to happen and also use this power to their advantage. I see the NCAA as having a Rahm Emanuel/Cass Sunstein like attitude toward this by, "never let a good crisis go to waste". It appears the NCAA has taken the opinion that "the enemy or your enemy is your friend", and has joined in the asymmetric warfare being raged against right way programs; and so is only ok with shacking in certain geographical/population center locations. We have stacks in the east (Duke), southeast (KY, and switching over to LSU), and the west (Cal). The only major population center in the central time zone is Texas. The recent regime change tactics were a clear signal to Shaka to go along with the powers that be to stay with the program, because the next stacking will be allowed to happen in central time zone Texas. Alford better get the memo to, UCLA is ripe for stacking and bringing viewership to the NCAA. If the NCAA can control stacking to population centers, then they can back off the bias refs, which is really being exposed and talked about after last years final four.

All this won't end well for CBB.

So...if we're not going to be allowed to stack, and if the 08 team was the last team capable of beating any of todays stacks; then why dumb down system for a year and change the BBIQ trajectory of years 2,3,4 of your current players? We ended up with 2 seasons of win totals in the 20's anyway. I'm hoping that the focus gets back to fundamentals, high BBIQ, and versatility to be able to beat stacks and everyone else. I hope that focus starts with the classes of Devonte and Svi, and adding Vick, Bragg, and was hoping Chukuw. Also hopefully Diallo comes back for years 2,3.

@jayhawkbychoice and I loved watching that beating😍

@jayhawkbychoice said:

@drgnslayr Yeah, we just didn't have the post depth that year. That was probably the reason for all the double teaming early in that game. In 08 we had 4 quality bigs and 20 fouls to beat the hell out of Hansbrough.

Sometimes I don't understand the lack of objectivity of memory. Cole was a freshman and played about 8 important minutes the whole season. Yes, they were all against Hansbrough and it was a fabulous moment, but he was not a "quality big". We had a 3 big rotation. How much did he play against Memphis?

2008: 3 man rotation, Cole got less than 10 minutes / game.

TRob's sophomore season: definitely 3d man, there wasn't a 4th.

We have been better when we could go 3 bigs deep than 4. We go 4 deep when we don't have 3 of the best quality.

Same for the smalls: we went 4 in 2008, we go 5 when we don't have 4 we can depend on. And don't mention Rodrick Stewart, he got all his minutes when Rush was injured, then hardly played once Rush came back.

Please don't take this as criticism, it's just that I prefer sticking close to the facts. Depth past 7 is plan B , depth past 8-9 is plan C in case of injury. Self can't even bring himself to give the young guys development minutes.

Self says in Korea everyone will get 20 minutes a game. Remember that and compare to reality later this summer. I hope for once he listens to himself.

@ParisHawk I don't take that as criticism at all, and you are right with your facts regarding Cole playing time as a freshman. Cole was a "quality big" that could only get less that 10 min/game on that team. You put freshman Cole on last years team and he would probably have been the #2 big behind Ellis. That proves my point. Dumbing down the playbook or not recruiting high fundamental, high BBIQ players at all positions hurts the team's efficiency further down the road. And for what gain, 2 seasons with win totals in the 20's? And you are exactly right about Self's rotations. There is no reason why 5 star, Jr., Selden shouldn't be able to rotate through all perimeter positions and be effective. If Frank, Devonte, and Svi are better at handling the ball, running the offense, and not giving up more on defense, then Wayne and Greene should sit. I think we'll see this year that soph Devonte ranked in the 30's (after reclassification) will be better at all aspects of the game than Jr. Selden, who was ranked 12th. So why is that? Why aren't our guys progressing in yrs 2, 3, 4 like they used to?

I believe the high school ranking system is way more flawed now than it was then. They give no credit to players who just know how to play the game, have good fundamentals, had dad's who coached, or came from storied/famed high school programs like RussRob and even Tyshawn. To much is made from hype and highlight films. The guys we have now like Frank, Devonte, Vick, and Bragg have enough talent and size that if they are given the coaching and reps in the system with the full playbook could be something very special trending up as their college years go by.

@jayhawkbychoice

I am for "dumbing down the playbook." Too many plays mean that your offense constantly has to live off of set plays. By March, teams completely know our offense.

I'd rather have fewer plays and put the pressure on guys to develop their own shots in specific situations. It means less thinking and more performing. I think the stiffness we have in our offense sometimes is because guys are trying to think so much. Back in 2008, we had a veteran team that relied heavily on sets and "team offense." That can work great when you have an experienced team full of great players. But there is a weakness to that approach. Predictability.

It is harder to predict how guys will create their own offense, and where. We were just a basket away from losing to Steph Curry and Davidson that year. And, of course, the Memphis game took a Chalmer's bomb to take us to OT.

I would have liked to see that team run half the plays and force guys like RRob, Mario and BRush to create more for themselves, even a young Collins. Seems like BRush actually did it sometimes.

If players have less on their minds, then comes an important game, it should be easier to put in a few specific plays adapted to mismatches. For example... how is Svi going to score in the low post when he gets a mismatch and the ball?

@ParisHawk

Let me first say I've always loved your posts and believe your one of the best on KUBuckets

Yet You said,

“Maybe you’re the one getting less credit than you want.”

Calling me out.

and now you say

"Sometimes I don’t understand the lack of objectivity of memory"

Calling out another poster.

What gives? If somebody doesn't agree with you then they are just nothing and worthy of your wrath?

I'm more than willing to let things go and move on but man you seem a little on unfair in how you post.

I still don't know what you mean when you called me out. I tried for a reply but no response.

@DoubleDD Your questions are fair. I thought you were exaggerating when you said a new player didn't get any credit from us, and you seemed to repeat yourself as if what you said didn't get enough respect the first time around.

Sorry if I put you off.

As far as the "objectivity" post, I didn't mean to call out an individual poster and maybe I should have said so.

I get the impression over the years that sometimes posters forget the differences between seasons. Cole was great but not his freshman year. TRob did not contribute his freshman year and played about 15 amazing minutes a game his sophomore year, then exploded as a junior.

Lots of bigs didn't contribute until later in their careers.

If I say this, it's only to be fair to the new guys by moderating my expectations. That may not be the best attitude. Maybe your positive outlook is better.

I'm surprised you talk about "just nothing and worthy of my wrath". Did I really deserve that? If so, my apologies.

@drgnslayr When I talk about the playbook, I'm talking about all the different options and looks that can from our "team offense". There are so many options that if the players can learn and be efficient there would be no predictability. They could give a different look each time down the floor just through the different options, not to mention changing the tempo within the possession. The possibilities are almost endless. If a defense cheated more to a certain option, then there is always another option from another player to take advantage of that. It does require bigs that can hold their spot on the floor and guards to make the correct, accurate passes with proper timing.

And like you said, "Back in 2008, we had a veteran team that relied heavily on sets and “team offense.” That can work great when you have an experienced team full of great players." Is that not what we have now, an experienced team full of great players? If that team did in fact have at their disposal 93 options on offense, why doesn't this one? Does this team even have, say 30 options? And if not, why?

There are plenty of opportunities for players to be creative within the offensive system. And when they are creative in the system, it allows the other players to know what's going on and be in position for rebounds, kickouts, and putbacks. If your talking about using ball fakes, head fakes, hesitation moves, etc., I'm all for that. And it wouldn't compromise the system. But, if you're talking about having a player just go rogue and do his own thing, that will compromise the system and all offensive flow. It would be even worse than everybody just standing around watching Wiggins two seasons ago. And if the offense breaks down and we're up against the shot clock, we usually call the "4 up" which basically just clearing out for someone to beat their man off the dribble and go to the hole, or kickout, or drop off to a big.

Steph Curry was just an anomaly and we had so many TO's in that game and didn't shoot very well from outside, that it was a close game. And in the Memphis game, if it wasn't for Rose hitting circus shots down the stretch we would have pulled away in that game too.

Speaking of Mario's bomb, that was a set play. The chop play has like 6-8 different option that can be run off it. Mario hit another 3 off it in the 07 big 12 champ game to send it to overtime the same way. We ran it 3 straight times in the 14' Stanford game with 3pt shots from 3 different spots on the floor. CF hit one on the wing and in the corner, and of course missed the one at the top of the key. We've seen other options from it too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we used it in 13' Michigan game, and it got EJ that baseline drive which he kicked back out for whatever reason. And in 12' we ran the same variation (sorry can't remember the game) that got Tyshawn a baseline drive and dunk at a key moment.

So I guess my point is that the "team offense" and "set plays" do work and are more flexible than we may even realize. It's just the players have to know how to execute. And basketball is their job, so I don't think it's too much to ask that they know the plays and can be able to execute them.

@Crimsonorblue22 Me too!!!! And sorry, ma'am, that's the first time I cussed in a post. I'll try not to let it happen again. :)

@ParisHawk

To be honest I was more confused than anything. Alas all is good. Maybe our wires just got crossed. That will happen sometimes in this technological age.

@ParisHawk

I am not sure I agree with your assessment that Cole was not a quality big; IMHO, he was. The reason he did not get more playing time is not because he was not a quality big but because KU had other...shall we say...better and more experienced quality bigs.

@jayhawkbychoice

Good post!

I wonder what percentage of offensive possessions we run actual plays?

I'd think not too many. We run plays out of timeouts and sometimes on inbounds moments.

I think they mostly run positional sets every play. That means... the guys know, on each possession, where they are supposed to be and what options they can run out of those positional sets. Like when we have a big up top to set ball screens. From these opportunities, players are supposed to create something.

Actual plays are called after timeouts, etc., and they run a play which is supposed to end on a score. If it doesn't they have a fall back to run some offense with the remaining shot clock.

I'm not sure how much has changed since the 2008 squad. I think we've put in quite a few new wrinkles the last couple of years.

@JayHawkFanToo Quality big or not, Cole didn't play significant minutes. That was my only point.

By significant I mean real contribution, even if limited, to a win.

Name one game other than UNC where he had an impact.

The issue is not Cole's quality but Self's. As you said he had 3 better bigs so they played and Cole didn't. Other coaches have depth, Self has reserves.

@ParisHawk

Ah yes, I see your point...but that is not what you posted:

"Sometimes I don’t understand the lack of objectivity of memory. Cole was a freshman and played about 8 important minutes the whole season. Yes, they were all against Hansbrough and it was a fabulous moment, but he was not a "quality big".We had a 3 big rotation. How much did he play against Memphis?"

See what I mean? You are equating being a "quality" player with "playing time" and this is where we disagree. Cole was a quality player but at that time, KU had better, more experienced options. Look at the third reserve in the USA National team, he is a superstar but does not play much because the two players in front of him are even bigger superstars. Do you see my point?

@JayHawkFanToo Cole was not a quality player as a freshman. Neither was TRob (two fouls taking off his warmup to check in), or lost Withey his first year, or almost any other first year player at KU. Freshmen generally stink. That's not a knock on the players those guys became after a year or two (or sometimes RARELY even during the season), but "quality" and "playing time" are actually pretty much the same thing on Bill Self teams*.

*other than Brady

@drgnslayr I'm not sure what percentage. Some teams have more fastbreak possessions and some push the tempo more than others, and therefore take the first open shot before even setting up on offense. Yes we do run set plays out of timeouts and inbound situations depending on the shot clock. But I would say that we run team offense almost all of the rest of the time. Sometimes it may not look like it because the first option on the play may be the best, or they catch defense making a mistake.

There have been many wrinkles over the years to take advantage of different players strengths, but mainly because of having only 1 primary ball handler. Since Wiggins, I think Self has been experimenting on how to use a true NBA "3", rather than another combo guard. And I have a theory that if say he did want to go back to a 3 combo guard lineup, he would have to wait until this core group of Mason, Selden, Perry, and maybe Svi are gone because they are already 3 years behind the curve of learning it. The core group of 08 only ran the system one way their whole careers, and just kept getting better at it. Since then some things have changed year after year after year. Poor Frank had to learn Wiggyball with 7 footer Embiid, bad ball, and God knows what this year. He wouldn't know what to think playing without a 6'8"SF out there with him.

I think I'm ready for some good old fashion Self high/low, with combo guards, that is true combo guards. :)

@DanR

I disagree that quality and playing time are pretty much the same thing. Playing time depend on how many "better " players you have playing ahead of you; if there is no better player you will play, regardless on how good (or bad) you are. Ask @HighEliteMajor if he equates quality and playing time under Coach Self in reference to players like Jamari Traylor. A year or two under Coach Self and Hudy will give you experience and conditioning which will make you a better player but you have to start with quality otherwise you end up as a bench warmer.

Agree to disagree?

I tend to think having shorter guards are just fine. The title team had rusrob, Collins and the tallest of the bunch Chalmers at 6'2. I like a line up of speed with Mason, Moonlight, Seldon, Elis, big D. From the videos I've seen the guy can run and this line up should be able to defend well. Hopefully Traylor has a good year I always thought he could be a trob type of guy for a 5th year senior he has to show up or could be the worse such player in the self era.

@kjayhawks

I like short guards when they can all guard and offend like those three, you have the ultimate defensive stopper at 3, and Shady, Jackson and Kaun inside

@JayHawkFanToo You're right, I misspoke.

Is Bill Self's playbook holding back our freshmen? It does appear that freshmen are capable of thriving and piloting their teams to Final Fours and national title games in other programs. Prime recent case in point: Andrew Wiggins. During his year in Lawrence was Andrew merely putting in B+ Time, protecting the merchandise, so to speak? Not to denigrate his freshman scoring record at KU; but his first year in the NBA was a whale of a breakout season for a player who did not consistently astonish opponents or the Jayhawk faithful in crunch college situations. Perhaps the NBA game is played and coached and officiated so much differently that my point becomes moot. Or perhaps AW landed in a college setting which lacked the essential team surroundings to amp and showcase his athleticism. Oubre, perhaps, faced some of the same handicaps. Did the learning curve become so laborious that their potential was scotched and limited? I bring up this matter because of my current concern for Diallo, a spectacularly successful high school player, a high energy kid who came late to the sport and is projected as another one-and-done Jayhawk recruit. Will he become so entrenched in the playbook that his spontaneity suffers, even though he spends time developing essential skills which will blossom in time, but after he departs the Kansas program? I am asking lots of varied questions here. And, I suppose, my feeling is that freshmen are asked to learn too much too quickly in the Bill Self program. I am a very dedicated supporter of Bill Self Basketball, am on record as admiring, first and foremost, league titles. But I have been more than somewhat disappointed in our freshman one-and-done performers...and, of course, NCAA Tournament disappointments of our squads which possessed potential superstars who did not quite cut the mustard on the biggest stage.

@REHawk Self's playbook didn't hold back Embiid.

Here's what is strange to me:

• Some positions require more experience to be good, such as PG

• In Self's system, bigs need to learn and do a lot, both on offense and defense: catching, passing, back to the basket, screens, hedging...

• Historically, the 3 is the spot where a freshman can start and shine.

So how could Embiid, in a position that normally requires experience under Self, outshine Wiggins who played the position most favorable to freshmen?

Maybe Wiggins' 3 point shooting wasn't fearful enough? Whatever the reason, his game was as repetitive as Embiid's was exciting.

@REHawk You know, I don't think it's the playbook. The offense thing isn't that complicated. I think it is Self's tolerance level. Just like folks have different tolerance levels as parents, coaches are the same way. Some coaches will tolerate certain errors. Some won't.

I think you are right to be concerned about Diallo. Everyone should be concerned about Diallo. We just don't know.

I am solidly on the record suggesting that OADs aren't the best choice under coach Self. My opinion is coach Self driven to a large degree, and my perception of why he gives guys the minutes they get. I always have said that Brady made him feel comfortable. Like an old pair of shoes. He knew what he was going to get. EJ, by comparison, some high peaks, but perhaps some deeper valleys.

Cliff is a great example. No one will say that Cliff made unique mistakes. But my guess is that it was a combination of mistakes and other factors -- demeanor, responsiveness, retention of info, repetition of the same errors, etc. One coach may have said, "Look, I'm willing to accept this stuff because he has higher talent, and I'll get better production." Another coach, not so much.

The same things that drive us crazy about coach Self, are what makes him a great coach. I've said this before -- hard-headedness and "do it my way or the highway" can be a coach's greatest strength and greatest weakness at the same time. In some moments, it works. In other moments, like the last two seasons, it didn't always work. But the "didn't always work" still resulted in excellent seasons, just not perhaps reaching each teams' peak.

@HighEliteMajor

Not the playbook.

Correct.

And so glad you have joined in debunking the myth of the complexity of the offense.

The offense that he wants them to run most of the time was designed for players to learn in three weeks for the Olympics.

Tyrell Reed was able to distill perimeter play to: don't let it stick, feed the post, make the open look on a kick out, and make three passes before shooting. Shizz, that's easier than the Oklahoma Shuffle that my high school team ran. Its easier than the double high post that my high school team ran. It makes the triangle seem like linear optimization.

The ancillary routines are simple, too.

The chop aka the Iba Weave takes about three reps for a junior high player to master. I know because my junior high coach had us learn it once.

Pick and roll has been played on play grounds in 2 on 2 for as long as I can remember. My brother and I used to run pick and roll on all the kids in the neighborhood when we bet who bought the bomb pops in summer time from the popsicle man on the three wheeled Harley with the cooler on the back.

Fade curls? Oh, man, that is not rocket science.

Frankly, the hardest thing Self asks them to do is all of these Bo Ryan derived race out high, catch and dribble farther out, then hook and drive right back in. And that's only hard because of the timings and the stress it puts on the joints. L&As aren't used to making those kind of 180 turns on the run. They like to fake once on the wing and take a few long steps and go 747.

Self's defense is easy sheep dip too.

What is different about Self is how hard he expects guys to play on both ends without a break.

They have never done that before.

How hard our guys go is why Self has such a sterling W&L statement and so many conference titles. In the long grind of a season, the teams the play the hardest win the most games, because intensity can overcome talent in the long grind. But it can't in the 6 game series that is the Madness. The Madness is all about healthiness,talent, execution, and referees wanting your team to win.

Because of how hard KU plays to win all those games in the long grind, KU is always among the most injured and among those showing the most wear and tear by March.

But there is another difference about Self and it goes to what you were pointing out. Execution. He is a stickler for doing things the right way up until one explodes to make a play. So: 95% of the game he is 100% intolerant of things done less than the right way. And 5% of the game, players get to impact their own way. And if their own way works, they get praise, and if it doesn't, they get their butts chewed out. This is where the real mind-intercourse occurs for freshmen trying to break bad habits of youth. 95% of the time they strain to do it right; then just about the time they get it, they are supposed to go impact in their primal beast mode that got them recruited in the first place. Impacting undoes all the habituation learned the previous 95% of the game in many, if not most players.

It all goes back to this "both-ness" thing I have talked about regarding Self.

Self is a "both" type.

Never "either."

You have to be able to play the controlled way and the uncontrolled way.

You have to be able to think and not think.

You have to be able to switch back and forth between these extremes.

And until you can do it, he is a nagging wife with you.

And, not surprisingly, this causes young players as much stress as it does young husbands.

You need at least two seasons to get used to Self demanding you to do both, because most players have never, ever, ever, ever, EVER had to do both before.

Both is a bitch.

Both hurts.

Both breaks you out of the temple of your familiar to borrow from Alice Walker.

Both is outside your comfort zone.

But both is where the big increments of mental development can happen.

Two seasons of nagging, of demanding a monster physical specimen named Thomas Robinson learn to play under control AND beast is what finally freed him into Superman.

Making lightening fast but contact averse 2 guard Tyshawn Taylor drive into contact and think about help, then when that didn't work, make him play point guard and force him to think about everyone all the time while also driving into pain in the lane...that is what freed the greatness in Tyshawn.

Offenses and defenses can be learned in three weeks, learned to be executed flawlessly in two months,.

What cannot apparently happen in a single season for many (all?) players, no matter how talented, is to pass through the crucible of "both" and come out on the other end into a nonlinear improvement that a team can cornerstone on for a season.

Andrew Wiggins couldn't do it, but he had such awesome talent that he could drop 14 ppg while he was caught in the crucible and his posse was apparently telling him to protect the merchandize and let Embiid be saddled to carry the team and take the blows. Andrew and the posse apparently understood that all Andrew needed were to showcase games one first semester and one second and he was then hardwired for the number one. Injury avoidance was the only rational course of action until the paychecks started. Let the big lion killer from Cameroon take the tough luv from Butcher Barnes' boyz, not the next Lebron. And so it went. But I digress.

The point is: Self was born to coach'em up with the "both" thing. Its who he is. Its what he does. And he absolutely will not stop until he decides he has to let go or keep the team from winning another title. He let go of Andrew, when he realized Andrew couldn't make it through the crucible in time to win conference. But all of that "both-ness" was layed into Andrew the first semester like a seed that would sprout in the NBA. It had delayed payoff. And that is why some smart parents insist on putting their kids through the Self Experience. It pays big dividends. Ask Mother Morris. Ask Tyshawn's mom. Etc. Etc.

Self's medicine works, but it takes time and it liberates few in a single season...so far.

But remember: Self is relentless about this stuff. He probably considers it a great test of his coaching ability to see if he can find a way to reformulate his "both-ness" crucible into a technique that gets results in a single season, rather than 2 or 3.

Persons that are great at anything, and Self is great at this, don't give up the magic, because of an obstacle. They work the problem. And they keep working the problem. Self has been modulating himself and altering the scenery and stage directions endlessly since he committed to OADs.

He is trying to make himself do "both."

Both induce the crucible that usually takes 2-3 seasons, AND find a way to do it in one season.

It may be the only challenge left that is keeping him coaching at all at this point.

He seems to have everything else wired.

@REHawk One thing that has not mentioned as far as I remember is that Wigs plays on a particularly bad team. This is a team that was not playing for anything that required a winning record. He is also playing for a coach who is currently not on even a warm seat unless they stink for a couple of more years. This means that the coach can let Wigs and other rookies on the team do things that help them develop that he could never have done at Cleveland after LeBron came back. The Wolves were never expected to win very many games and they did not disappoint.

KU is not remotely in that situation. As much as we talk about allowing loses to help develop players, every loss no matter when in the season is viewed as a disaster . Bill Self obviously does not like to lose. The fan base is the same if not more so. Every loss is dissected on this and other KU boards as if the world as we know it is about to end.

@sfbahawk Thank you for responding, you and Paris and HEM and jb. All of you have offered enlightening comments regarding my concerns. This OAD busines has to be challenging Bill Self to the max. And you are probably on target in surmising that the challenge is probably keeping his head in the college coaching game. Man, do I ever pray that Self's stuff works well with Diallo. I might be misjudging that kid's college potential, but his 2 MVP spring games marked him as a marvelous future talent, a player who can propel TV viewers straight skyward from the arms of their tired old recliners.

@REHawk

I have learned not to doubt you on player assessments.

I am, therefore, amped to see Cheick.