🏀 KuBuckets Archive

UK, UNC, and Duke receive some serious love not only from the media but recruits. Year after year UK, Duke, and UNC seem to get the best of the best. They win Championships and the media loves them.

OK so here is the Great Debate. So many mock KU's dominace in the Big 12. They win the Conference year after year. So much they are setting the record for Conference Championships. Yet so many say what's the big deal.

Ok so let the arguement begin. Could UK, UNC, or Duke duplicate what KU has done these last 13 years? If UK, UNC, or Duke were in the Big 12 would they be on the cusp of setting the record for the most consecutive conference championships?

I bring this up because it seems to me KU is playing with lesser cards than UK, UNC, and Duke. Yet Old Coach seems to have KU in the conversation as the best every year.

Maybe another topic? Is Coack K, Roy or Cal better than Self? I'm not thinking so. Coach seems be able to take lesser players and make them great. If not then why is KU always in the conversation year after year even though KU gets out recruited every year?

No wrong answers. Lay it out there. Let's hear it.

@DoubleDD I would have to say YES all three could do the same as KU IF they played in the Big 12. That's not to say that any of those 3 coaches are better then Coach, but I think you kind of Answered the question with what you posted a little earlier in the Thread, they get the best of the Best.

You say and true Coach self seems to get the most out of lesser, which I or may be true - -But you put duke, UNC Or Kentucky in the Big 12 with the talent they have, and you just have to believe like you say the talent they get year after year and put them in this league I have to believe they have a pretty good chance of doing the same.

I think part of that speaks to the strength of the league it'self, we haven't exactly burned paths in the NCAA tourney, we always have a pretty good showing in non con but other then KU in the NCAA tourney we haven't exactly tore it up., where as the other 3 you spoke of have has decent success, more so then other members from the Big 12. I think the dominance of KU during this span - -you have to say that these 3 schools let's say have at least the same amount of talent for lack of better term & not saying their Coaches are any better but I would have to say they are Right with Coach Self in coaching ability anyways and that isn't taking anything away from Coach

Maybe a better question would be, If WE ( KU ) we in the ACC or SEC could we win 13 Conference Championships in a row. In the ACC I think I would have o say no, Maybe a Bette Chance in the SEC- but yet with Kentucky in the SEC that would be a pretty good challenge, that's just my take could be wrong but that's just me.

Something I would be curious to see is how many national titles KU would have if KU had the this run in the 60's and 70's and the Wooden era Bruins went on their run in this era. Prior to 1975 (Wooden's final season), only conference champs made the NCAA Tournament so there was much less competition in the NCAA Tournament in the Wooden run. What could KU do in an NCAA Tournament with only conference champs in It? How many fewer titles would Wooden have wokn if UCLA had to run through 64+ teams that weren't exclusively conference champs?

I would say that Duke is the only other team that maybe could duplicate the current run KU is on. UK has missed the NCAA several times under Cal and Gillispie besides that the B12 is tougher than the SEC pretty much year after year, they've never won the SEC/B12 challenge. The SEC usually has 2 or 3 good teams and the rest are average at best. UNC also missed the NCAA tournament during a rebuilding year in 2010, that and KU has beaten them 3 times in the NCAAs during the streak (2008,12,13) so I think its a safe bet to say they couldn't do it. Duke on the other hand is debatable because they haven't missed the NCAAs or been seeded worse than 6th since our streak started. But they did have some rocky years in 07 when they finished with 4 straight loses bring their total to 11 for the year. The 2016 blue devils made the sweet 16 but also lost 11 games once again that year, KU has a single double digit loss team in 2014 also Duke has 3 first round NCAA exits to KU's 2. So I'd say Duke is debatable but not the other 2. The ACC is the best conference overall most years but some year like last IMO where they had a single after the first weekend in UNC, who once again IMO got every call a guy could buy in tight games vs Arkansas, UK and Oregon. I honestly after last year am wondering if CFB and CBB aren't rigged same team that lost the year before came on to win it and some silly silly coaching on the other side. I think Bill Self and Kansas are hands down the regular season duo in the land, our consistency make us great but we have to transfer it to the post season to be the greatest.

@kjayhawks The points you bring up are good points & solid points BUT the original question that was asked was Could Duke,Kentucky, Or N Carolina do what KU has done , win 13 straight Conference Championships IF they were in the Big 12? Again You would have to believe yes they could. - -Overall the ACC is a stronger conference then the Big 12 simple fact, their upper crust of at least 5-6 teams are not any worse then West Virginia, Iowa State, Baylor - -they at their worst match our upper division on an even keel, You have to say that being logical that Duke , Kentucky, & North Carolina are at least as good as KU with out giving those 3 schools much credit. Again the question was could they do what KU has done in the Big 12? - The answer is yes they Could, saying no would be implying that for sure the ACC is not as strong as the Big 12 , and that's simply is not true. Actually they are a stronger conference plain and simply it is an absolute dog fight every night in their league.

So to say that Duke and North Carolina couldn't match the feat KU has accomplished if they were a member of the Big 12 just doesn't hold up. Now Kentucky and the SEC, ya a better argument could be made, as I believe the Big 12 is a stronger conference for sure, although again Kentucky year in and year out has some of the best talent in America at their disposal, they just more or less get to pick whoever they want year in year out. - - I still feel that Kentucky were talking Kentucky not any of the other schools, would stand a very good chance of matching what our Jayhawks have done if they played in the Big 12, I just don't feel over the course of an entire conference season that our other teams would have the power to match Kentucky. Kentucky would be at the worst case Scenario have 2-3 losses tops in our league, just as KU - -just have to think that all 3 of these Schools would have a very legit chance to duplicate what we have done if they played in our conference.

Now could KU pull off 13 straight championships if we played in the SEC? - -or the ACC? - - I would give us a lot better chance of accomplishing that in the SEC then the ACC. The SEC again isn't nearly as strong as the ACC - pretty much the same scenario a KU in the big 12 you have KU & then 2-3 pretty decent teams - - in the SEC you have Kentucky but other then them on a year in year out basis who do you have? - -You might have a team that has a flash in the pan year be a little stronger but consistency wise? - -na not so much. So I feel KU chances there would be greater to win the 13 straight although with Kentucky being in the league? - -KU 13 yrs? wouldn't bank on it. - - Now if KU were to play in the ACC? - - no way would we win the ACC 13 yrs in a row, the competition is just to stiff the overall competition in the ACC is just stiffer then in the Big 12, that's just me -again not saying your wrong you have very good points but I just feel to say that these teams couldn't duplicate what we have done if they played in the Big 12? - -ya they could. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Would KU have won 13 straight in either the SEC or ACC? I doubt it, honestly.

The 2006, 2007 (national champs) and 2014 (remember, that team went undefeated in SEC play) Florida teams probably would have won at least one of those titles, if not two or all three. The Big 12 hasn't had a team other than KU as good as any of those Florida teams during this streak other than maybe the Blake Griffin OU team that went to the Elite Eight and possibly the Final Four Sooners behind Hield, although I honestly think all three of those Florida teams were better than either of the OU teams.

Tennessee had a good squad in 2008 (probably on par with those OU teams, honestly). Florida had another good squad in 2011 (an Elite Eight team).

Simply put, the Big 12 hasn't had a program produce any teams as good as the best 2 or 3 Florida teams over the last 13 years. The 2007 Florida team was almost certainly superior to KU over the entire season (KU won the early season matchup, but that Florida team was stronger and stronger over the year). The 2014 Gators were 18-0 in SEC play, and likely would have won the league over the Wiggins/Embiid Hawks if Embiid still gets hurt that season and everything else plays out the same.

The 2008 Tennessee squad loses to the Champ Hawks, but I would guess Florida wins at least 2 titles over the last 13 years, if not 3. So SEC is an almost certain no.

In the ACC, if KU takes either UNC or Duke's place, its still likely that the other remaining squad (either UNC or Duke) still wins at least 2 titles over that span. Other teams - Louisville, Miami, and Virginia, particularly - have had strong squads that I think would have made a run as well.

The key to KU dominating the Big 12 is that KU almost never loses at home. Hosting UNC (or Duke), plus Louisville, Virginia, etc., KU would likely have some home losses, making it likely that the streak would get broken (or would have been broken by now).

Looking at the Big 12 over the last 13 years, other than KU, the only two legitimate Final Four contenders were the Griffin Sooners and the Hield Sooners. Hoiberg had some good squads at ISU, but no Final Four teams. Texas had talent, but no Final Four level squads after the Augustin/James group. The Big 12 has had lots of good teams, but lacks in the great team department.

And that is why KU continues to dominate - year after year, they are the only potentially great team in the Big 12. There's no Florida, or UNC, or Duke to challenge them.

The main difference between KU and teams like Duke, Kentucky and UNC is that KU has been remarkably consistent, even after full rebuilds; the same cannot be said about the other teams.

UNC and UK, with all the talent available, have missed tournaments in the last 13 years and Duke has finished as low as 6th in the ACC and 5th the last two season. Would you believe that the last time Duke won the ACC Conference was in 2009-2010 (shared) and before that it was 2005-2006. Since the 2000 season, duke has won the ACC conference title only 4 times...so much for the mighty Duke. UNC has a better record having won the Conference 8 times in the last 14 years since Coach Williams took over.

The Big 12 has had one elite team, KU, and a bunch of solid-to-elite teams from top to bottom at different times. The ACC has 4-5 team that are consistently good but the rest of the League is weak. UNC missed a tournament and could not even win the NIT. The SEC has Kentucky, that missed a tournament and proceeded to lose to Bobby MO in the NIT (KU has not sank to that level on long time} and Florida and several team that are good one year and not so good the next. For the last several years, the Big 12 has been ranked as one of the top two conferences by most of the publication that objectively compute rankings including Sagarin, Pomeroy and Massey among others; saying that the Big 12 is not strong is factually incorrect and diminishes what KU has accomplished.

The premise that other teams could have done what KU has is highly hypothetical and could or could not have happened...KU's streak has happened and is still active and more importantly, IT IS REAL, not hypothetical or fictional.

I don't think any of those other teams could do this in the Big 12. No way. But perhaps not for obvious reasons.

Our biggest advantage is having Bill as coach. He played in the Big 8 and he personally puts winning our league as a top priority . He's been blasted for that with many saying he should invest more in preparing for March over the Big 12.

I still side with Self. He could "roll the dice" and sacrifice everything every year in hopes we have a slight better chance in March. I just don't see that as the right strategy. Period.

If he took that strategy we would typically end up with NOTHING every year. And then... I can hear the criticism... "Kansas can't even win the Big 12!"

With a strong showing every year in the Big 12, Kansas almost guarantees a 1# seed in March... and that has value, too.

@drgnslayr I'd like to see Duke go to WV. Be a fun game to watch.

Well being as how this has only happened once, and if/when we win the Big XII this season, it will have never happened in ANY conference, I'd say it is very unlikely that if Duke, UNC or UK were to be switched with us during the same time period that they could have had the same conference championship streak. I also don't believe KU would have won the ACC every year, with teams like Virginia, Notre Dame and Miami getting good coaches and getting hot. Then you add Louisville, Syracuse and Pitt in the mix now. Even Georgia Tech and Florida State have potential to have great seasons. We talk about not getting a night off in the Big XII. I think the ACC is the conference you don't get a night off in.

As far as switching with UK and the SEC, it is much more possible. The only team that scares me is Florida, and only in 2007 and 2011. KU has battled Durant and Griffin and Hield and came out on top still. No reason to think that wouldn't have happened in the SEC. 2007 we beat out Durant and Acie Law and went 14-2 in conference play. We would have been right there with that Florida team (who went 13-3 in a down year for UK - beating them twice). 2011 team won 35 games again going 14-2 in conference play with a stacked roster including T-Rob, The Morris Twins and Tyshawn. I'd bet on Bill in that scenario.

As for the original question, I think Duke would be the one with a chance and that's it. Sure they haven't won many ACC titles recently, but they also haven't had true off years either like UK and UNC have. How far down in the ACC would the 2008-09 KU team have finished? The 2011-12 team that had no depth and was using Justin Wesley as a rotation player? The 2013-14 and 2014-15 teams that lost 10 and 9 games those seasons? Those are KU teams that don't win the ACC and probably finish as far down as Duke has some years? Some of those Duke teams that have finished 5th and 6th I think we're good enough to win the Big 12 those years, or at least good enough to not write them off.

Obviously hypothetical, but I think Duke is the one who could have done what KU has done in role reversal.

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck COULD chuck wood?

@jayballer54 I opened up with my answer only Duke could've done the same. Do yhou really think the 2010 UNC team that finished tied for 9th in ACC with a record of 5-11 overall 20-17 was good enough to win the B12? KSU finished second in the B12 that year and finished the season with an top 5 ranking and elite 8. Absolutely no way UNC repeats our 13 straight and no way is the 9th place team in any conference gonna win the B12 no flipping way. As far as UK goes if you ain't good enough to make the dance you ain't good enough to win the B12 maybe UK could've made the dance in the B12 in 09 and 13 but I doubt it. Simply put the B12 is flat out better top to bottom than the SEC, that's why the B12 hasn't lost the B12/SEC challenge and gets more teams in the dance. As @justanotherfan said im not sure we go on this run in the SEC, no way anyone wins the ACC 13 years running, but I think we could come close in the SEC probably run into trouble in 12 and 14. I'm just shocked anyone would have so little respect for the B12 and so much for the ACC, I'm mean the 9th place team from there winning the B12. You would think if the ACC was that strong they would have all final four teams every year hands down. The ACC does have the most FFs and NCs but they also get the most teams in and IMO get the deak stacked in their favor on numbers alone. If you get 10 or 11 teams in one or two are gonna have a favorable road.

The Big 12 is a strong conference because it has no bad teams. The ACC and SEC are typically top heavy with 2-3 elite type teams and 4-5 bottom feeders. That's not the case in the Big 12.

But because that isn't the case, being an elite team in the Big 12 (a potential national title contender most years) makes KU better every Big 12 team in any given year. Florida has had Elite teams in the SEC. UNC, Duke, Louisville, and Notre Dame have all had elite level teams over the last decade or so. Oklahoma has had only two Elite teams over that same span. Every other program in the conference tops out at "really good." Iowa State was really good under Hoiberg. Texas was really good in different years. Oklahoma State was really good once. Baylor has been really good a couple times. K-State had some really good years. Mizzou, West Virginia, they have all been really good.

But only OU has been to the Final Four since the streak started (2016). None of the other teams have been to the Final Four. Only OU, KSU and Baylor have been to the Elite Eight. The Big 12 is full of a bunch of teams that are Sweet Sixteen level teams. That makes for a strong league. But you don't get the elite level tests.

@Texas-Hawk-10

I think you hit on some good points about how we had some years we would struggle in the ACC.

I can see it like that, too.... but what I can't account for is Self's personal capabilities to put league at the top of his list.

Bill knows we can't drop more than one game a year in AFH... and rarely should we even do that.

But he also has his strategy on how to win the league. He knows how many games we need to win away from AFH. He pushes buttons to get it done and so far it has worked very well.

None of it happens without his emphasis on winning the Big 12. Even potential recruits get an earful of Self and his drive to win our league.

I don't think there is any other D1 coach anywhere who puts such a drive on winning their league. Nowhere.

It may seem the same with other coaches. But it isn't.

@JayHawkFanToo With Duke that only solidifies how strong their conference is I'l match Lousiville, Virginia, and others from there against West Virginia, Baylor and Iowa State All day long, The years Duke has been lower - was with just cause such a strong conference from top to bottom and injuries combined -the league is a nightmare Syracuse and others. The main reason the Big 12 gets the rep of such a strong conference is a lot on the Non- Con -teams rack up gawdy records, but to say that the ACC. - is weaker from top to bottom - don't see that at all. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@drgnslayr The biggest difference is the unbalanced schedule in the ACC. We know our conference opponents every year in the Big 12 because of the double round robin. In the ACC, you could be unfortunate enough to draw a brutal road schedule and suddenly, you're struggling to contend even if you have a very good team because some decent, but not great team drew a much more favorable schedule than you did.

@jayballer54

I would like you to cite one source that indicates the ACC is strong top to bottom; you will not be cause it isn't. Every season, the ACC consistently has a 2 or 3 very good to elite teams, a few more good teams and then the quality drops a lot with the bottom 4-5 being well below average; remember that the ACC has 15 teams. The Big 12 consistently has one elite team, KU, a few very good teams and the rest are above average to good with an occasional bad team; there are no days off in the conference as all of the top teams have lost to lower rankled teams. With TCU and TTU coming strong and Texas having good returning and incoming talent, there will be no poor team in the conference next season...may be KSU? As a conference, there is no question that top to bottom the Big 12 is at the top.

You make it sound like the Big 12 goes and plays chumps in the non-con schedule; this is not the case; the non-con SOS and record for the conference is consistently at the top. The computerized ranking systems look at the entire strength of schedule for every team and then it is factored into the rankings. The Big 12 beats the SEC head to head and keep in mind that all 10 team from the Big 12 play and only the top 10 teams in the SEC play and the bottom 4 teams do not play. Before that, the Big 12 beat the PAC 12 head to head several years in a row .The Big 12 has finished ranked in the top 2 for several years now.

I would encourage you to go to the Sagarin, Pomeroy or Massey sites or any other that uses an objective system and look at how the number are calculated. I believe you will be surprised.

Again, you don't have to take my word, look at all the conference rankings, do your own research and then present a justification for your premise, fair enough?

Just my opinion...

@JayHawkFanToo Over-hyping the Big XII for sure right now.

Who is a threat to make the Elite 8 out of the Big XII this year? Just KU. Only team we know for sure. Maybe Baylor, but they did just lose Motley.

Who is a threat to make the Elite 8 out of the ACC this year? Duke, UNC, Notre Dame, Cuse, VT, Louisville, Virginia, and Miami could all make a case.

ACC doesn't have below average teams. They have Great and good teams that beat the crap out of average teams and make their league look worse than it is. I'd bet money Wake could finish 2nd in the Big XII next year and they will be lucky to finish top 5 in the ACC.

@JayHawkFanToo I am glad you have your opinion, just like I have mine. I'm not here to get in debate - it's just how you feel and how I feel . - Like the guy says there is no wrong answer here , he ask what we thought, so you have given yours - -I have given mine our bottom teams really drop, until this last year Texas Tech TCU K-State haven't been tearing people up . - -It is just an opinion that's all it is , you have points I have points it's all good. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@Kcmatt7

I guess we will find out soon enough. In my opinion the bottom 3-4 teams in the Big 12 are better than the bottom 3 teams in the ACC.

@jayballer54

OK you claim that UK could do what KU has done in the Big 12? Yet UK hasn't done that in the SEC. A conference that is considered the weakest of all the power 5 conferences.

@Kcmatt7

The question was could Duke, UNC, or UK duplicate/equal KU's conference winning streak if they were playing in the Big 12?

I know ACC seems daunting with all those basketball schools. Yet if the ACC is so great with all those great and good schools and no schools that play below average. Then they should have 2 to 3 teams in the final 4 every year, and should have a winning streak of NC in basketball like the SEC in Football had up tell the last couple years.

Yet that isn't the case.

You see the damn thing is if the ACC gets just one school in the Final four then their repetition stays intact. Even though it supposed to be a league full of great and good teams?

I'm going to say it. As long as Coach Self is the coach, KU would duplicate their record in any conference you want to pick.

The reason?

UK won't agree to a home and home with KU.

UNC doesn't want any game with KU.

Duke won't even think about scheduling with KU unless it's Football.

Why? You tell me? Coach has been trying to schedule these matchups for years. It isn't KU backing down. It's UK, Duke, and UNC. No the only way these schools will play KU is in some kind of Championship series. Not sure UNC would even agree to that. I've read the articles, and it's not the lack of Coach trying to these games on the schedule.

@DoubleDD To be fair, Roy doesn't want to schedule KU for emotional reasons. Not the same situation as the other two schools.

@ParisHawk

Fair point.

@jayballer54 Ou goes to a Final Four - the next year, they are gutted. Iowa St is going downhill. A few years back, the B12 had 3 teams ranked in the Top 10, and 5/6 teams ranked in the Top 25. This year, they're going to be fortunate to keep 3 teams in the Top 25 the whole year. It's going to be a down year for the B12, imo. When the idiots running the B12 turned down Louisville, the handwriting was on the wall. Now the ACC and the Pac 12 are both ahead of the B12. Gees Louise, have you seen all the talent that Pac 12 teams had last year, and have signed for this year?

@DoubleDD Hmmmm, let's see, In this thread wasn't you asking for others opinions? - - Didn't you say they WERE no wrong answers? - -just other views? - Yet when others give a view different then you must be wanting to hear, you go on a attack mode, so I'm guessing unless it's what your wanting to hear then the others don't know what were talking about. - -these are just opinions, you question Kc Matt - -you question myself, on our opinions just cause they differ then what you feel - -believe. - -You say the perception that comes across that the ACC is surpose to be so great then why shouldn't they have more then one team in the final four every year. Hate to tell you ARE better then the Big 12 in Basketball period

You know or at least should know that when it comes to the tourney, it is a crap shoot, a lot of things go into the tourney, Things such as, What time comes into the tourney on a roll - -gets hot at the right time coming into the tourney, In the tournament it's ONE game, you happen to have a of night and your done, if you lose because of a off night does that mean the other team is better then you? - - -umm no, it was an OFF NIGHT. - -a turnover here, a turnover there, a missed call here, a missed call there, a off night shooting, it happens. Does that mean they are better? absolutely not, it's a one game series, you have to go on a team body of work for a season - - not one game.

So the same thing can be said for ACC teams. How many teams do you think the ACC should have in the final four every year 2? - -3? how many? when your talking about the strength of a conference you look at their body of work over a season - - not one game. - -Let me ask you this - in how many of our ( KU ) early exits from the NCAA tourney, in how many of those games do you feel the other team was better then KU ? - In most of those cases the scenario happen that I talked about earlier in my response, you know that -I know that - -we all know that or we should, if you know anything at all. - In those losses if KU were to play the best 3-5 chances are better then not we would win that series, or if it was the best out of seven, we would win that series but it's not - -it's ONE game.

The same thing can be said for the ACC, their losses was one game - -not a series, chances are in their losses they too if it was a series most of the time these schools would win those series, Again a lot depends o so many factors, who gets hot at the right time, who has an off night, If a player gets hurt, bad calls,. When your comparing conferences you have to go over a teams body of work for the season - -not a one game tourney. Their is only one winner out of 68 in the NCAA tourney - -one winner, the other 67 go home losers, finish their season with a L. - -does that mean they aren't any good? - - does that mean their conference is over rated? Does that mean that the ACC isn't a better conference the Big 12? -No, absolutely not. - - It means in their one game series they got beat.

Your not going to see multiple teams from the same conference make the final four very often, that is just not going to happen, to many factors, doesn't mean one Conference isn't better, to get multiple teams in the tourney to the final four is an exception , not the rule by far.

Now as far as the SEC I think and again just my opinion your more right, cause the SEC isn't as strong , by far. Yes Kentucky would have a harder time accomplishing, it, but would they have a chance or could they? - -Yes they would have a chance - -a chance, that's all it is - - a chance, but you ask could they? - -and the answer is yes, they could, anybody could - just that some teams chances are a lot better then others. - -Again as you said there is no wrong answers - -just opinions, and that all Matt's is - -mine is - just like you everybody has a right to an opinion, rather you think they are right or wrong, there just opinions, I know you'll think I'm getting all twisted up, getting heated, no not at all, again I'm just giving an opinion on what you fronting Matt and myself for not agreeing or thinking the way you are on this -we don't agree it's ok, right? - That's whats great about this site people are allowed to voice their opinion on things rather it's right or wrong, like you say their is no wrong answer just different opinions. - -anyways just my thoughts, hope you have a good upcoming day guy. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@DoubleDD Yet if the Big 12 is tougher then the ACC in Basketball like your trying to imply then WE should have a streak of National titles in Basketball, words or things you are trying to imply about the ACC, same goes for the big 12.

Team for team simply the ACC is a better Conference, you wanna match the middle, the lower division teams of each Conference against one another? - -I'll take Louisville, Syracuse, Virginia, Miami hell even to a lesser degree North Carolina State over K-State, Texas Tech, TCU any day, and yes I am stating these teams from the ACC as middle tier because that's where they are frequently in a league such as the ACC, it's a war there every night out - -doesn't mean they suck, just means their league is a battle and again if we were to match those teams against the one's I mentioned from the Big 12, ya I'm taking the ACC more often then not ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@KUSTEVE Agree on Louisville for sure, a lot of talent gone out West also. Other then KU where does the Big 12 have teams ranked in the top 20 - -30 in recruiting on a consistent basis? - -We don't I don't think OU ranks in the top 20, I don't think Iowa State, Baylor, West Virginia do consistency have recruiting classes, The ACC is just better period, the Pac 12 not so sure - I know Dough boy is always or seems to do really well, especially the last two -- - three years, I agree why we didn't bring Louisville in the league is a head scratcher for sure. - - ROC CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer54 The case could be made that Arizona has signed as almost as many top recruits this year and next as our entire conference. I did a breakdown a few months back where the B12 this upcoming recruiting year had signed far less talent in the Top 100 recruits than the ACC and the Pac12. Heck, we barely beat the Big East. Take KU out of the equation, and it becomes downright pitiful. Now, that was b4 Bamba had signed with UT, so that helps the conference for sure. For the B12 to stay relevant, we need to see OU and UT take a big step forward ( which could definitely happen), TCU to continue to improve, and the Clones not to fall off a cliff w/o Morris.

My opinion is the conference is dead man walking. It's just a matter of time before we have to start scheduling a grueling non-conference because the conference is so weak. We'll end up in the B10, which is why they are rushing to upgrade the football facilities.

@DoubleDD I said my part on if I think it could be duplicated already.

And your logic is completely flawed. But whatever man. You feel free to think what you want. Seems like you're just trying to start something by saying outlandish comments with no backup.

@KUSTEVE I understand, and I now stumpy has been knocking the socks off on his recruits I mean Ayton and others I'm not sure why the big 12 doesn't do better in recruitment I mean ya Texas got Bama, Okla got Young but over all were sucking hind boob for lack of a better word I want to say but won't - -I'm sure in the end run your right it will be the Big 10 , so we will be ok, BUT K-Straight their screwed maybe the Mo Valley lmao - but Everyone has their own opinions and that's what this thread just as others were suppose to be about opinions and that's all they are - I'm sure I'm gonna get blasted from some people who think I'm just some suck ass ACC lover - -umm No I just feel they are the better conference just my opinion was said not suppose to be any wrong answer and I'm not going to get sucked into war of words that has happened before and got ugly have grown from that, but I for sure agree with ya man, one thing for sure feels good to be Crimson & Blue - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@Kcmatt7 I agree with ya buddy I think it could easily be duplicated by these teams Duke for sure and the other 2 would have a good shot. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

In the 9 years since we won the national championship, teams currently in the ACC have won 5 national championships ( Louie had not joined the ACC yet, but it shows the caliber of the league). Over the same period, the B12 has had 2 Final Four teams. i understand the luck factor of the tournament, (and I recognize the easy path they gave Dook one year) but at some point, all of these rating systems that always show the B12 as the best have to be seriously questioned, imo. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

@jayballer54 I actually don't think it would have been duplicated.

Seems to me that if you have one smaller conference with a single elite team, and another 40% larger conference with two or three elite teams, it is a lot more likely that the team in the smaller conference will have a long championship streak. It wouldn't matter if the teams were exchanged.

Having two elite teams in a single conference almost guarantees that they will knock each other off periodically. Put either of those teams in a conference by themselves and you could see a long streak.

Don't forget that Duke and NC, through all the changes in ACC membership, have always played each other home and away. Remember, too, that KU did not have to do that until 2012-13. That includes the early days of The Streak when the biggest challenges were Texas (including the Aldridge, Ford, Durant, Augustin, Gibson, Pittman, Tucker, and Thompson years) and Oklahoma (and Blake Griffin was injured when we played the single game against them the year he was Nat'l POY). Since we tied with one of those teams in 3 of the first 4 Streak championships, it cannot be denied that our limited exposure to those teams played a role.

Could Duke or NC have done the same? Sure! Take either of those teams out of the ACC over the past 30 years (which also would have eased recruiting since there would no longer be a conference rivalry, much as we no longer seem to be fighting with MU), and you could easily have seen the remaining one run off a long string. Move them to the Big 12, same thing.

Elite teams and elite coaches will excel wherever they are.

The big 12 is basically the wcc. #elpoyotakes

I know for a fact UNC under the current coach could not maintain a conference win steak of more than a few years and couldn't win a national championship while in the big12 either. We already went down that road with Roy. I sure as heck don't want him back.

DoEs unc or duke get the recruits try currently haul in If they are in the Midwest?

@dylans

I would argue that the Big 12, in its early days, was stronger than it is currently.

Remember, OU went to a Final Four while Roy was here. Texas did too. Mizzou had some good teams. Oklahoma State went to the Final Four in 2004 and in 1995, and had been good at the national level in those in between years. Iowa State was a top 5 team in a couple of years. Over the last 10 years, I don't think you can find teams as good as the early 2000s Texas teams with TJ Ford, or those late 90's and early 2000s Oklahoma teams, or Sutton's consistent Oklahoma State teams, or even Tim Floyd's ISU squads, and certainly not on a year after year basis.

Again, this is talking about teams being strong national contenders on a year after year basis. That just hasn't happened in the Big 12.

@justanotherfan How many final fours does Mizzou have? Lol.

Roy has been a better coach at unc, because he's been better at recruiting. His style of waiting on one key piece before he would sign anyone else at KU royally screwed up more than one class. It's pretty easy to see why that guy has had more success at an easier school to recruit to. It's fairly amazing that anyone has success at KU given the geographical limitations on recruiting and the lack of local talent.

Put Bill Self on unc or dukes teams and he wins big every year. Would be win the acc every season- probably not. Put k or Roy as KUs coach and do they match what Bill has done? Not likely.

@dylans

Not having MU in the conference has aided KU in keeping the streak going. Self was 5-4 in Columbia while in the Big 12. Roy was roughly .500 there as well. That eliminated probably our toughest road trip of the season when they left the conference. That's a huge benefit, especially since we haven't won at WVU in 4 years, and we've been pretty shaky at Oklahoma State during Self's tenure.

MU has zero Final Fours, but they have been a #1 seed in the NCAA tournament. Since the streak started, no other Big 12 team has gotten a #1 seed. OU has had a pair of 2s. That just points again to the lack of national level teams in the conference during the streak.

@Texas-Hawk-10

Speaking of scheduling... we have a good track record of beating many B12 teams on their home court. Even though that may help them "get up" to play us in their home every year, as the game progresses sometimes you can see them wilt.

Meanwhile... many of our other top foes in the league have historically had trouble in many of their away games.

It really is a combination "perfect storm" that is going to have to happen to dethrone KU from being conference champions. We need to drop one or more of those games we usually win, and whomever is challenging us for the top spot has to win games they don't normally win.

I think it even gets tougher for our foes when there is more than one shining bright to challenge us. In the end, all those teams cannibalize each other, leaving us alone at the top.

Last... I always thank KSU. Those purple kitties always help us. They pull upsets on others that always puts the icing on the cake.

I think we should make Weber a symbolic assistant coach at KU!

LOL

@drgnslayr I was with you until that last part. No squeaky!

That consistency is what sets KU apart from ANY team in the country. No days off. Hell Duke and UNC both had fallen out of the top 25 mid to late season due to poor play in the last 10 years.

@jayballer54

I wasn't trying to be rude. I was just asking the question about UK. It's not even really about disagreeing with ya. Every body agrees UK gets the better talent, and every body also agrees the SEC is a weaker conference than the Big 12?

You say they have a chance. I say they have blown their chance.

@justanotherfan Missouri was never a 1 seed during KU's streak. They were a 2 seed once and lost in the 1st round that year.

@drgnslayr This is the biggest difference between the Big 12 and ACC. The best team will always win the Big 12 because of the double round robin. In the ACC, you can have a team that's not the best win the regular season because they lucked out on their schedule.

Would KU's streak be at 13 if KU had Texas, OU, or OSU twice during early years of the streak when KU shared the league title? KU has definitely been the benefactor of some favorable schedules when the Big 12 still had divisions and avoided playing some of those really good UT, OU, and OSU teams twice in the mid to late 2000's.

@Kcmatt7

I'm not sure how I got side ways with ya, but yes I am a flawed person.

Believe me I'm not arguing that the Big 12 is the best conference. Hands down the ACC is far and away the best conference. Also lets not forget about the Pac 12.

I guess I'm trying to point out that what Coach has done with KU in this conference streak is pretty remarkable. And just because someone is a Duke, UNC, or Kentucky. Doesn't mean they could match the success of the conference streak. Doesn't mean they couldn't, yet the odds would be pretty slim. In fact I'm pretty sure Vegas would take all those bets in a heart beat.

As KU fans I think we just assume KU will win the conference every year. Not realizing what amazing run Coach and KU are on. We take it for granted if you will.

I guess only after the streak ends and some time has passed can we as fans look back and truly see the greatness that has taken place.

@Texas-Hawk-10

Great point about having the double round robin.

@DoubleDD I actually would say that since Bill Self has been the coach at Kansas, the SEC has been just as good as the Big 12 overall; and better by the ultimate measure -- NCAA titles and Final Fours.

No way KU has this conference streak if another top 15 program is in the mix. It's just the reality of competition. We don't have any program other than Kansas in that range.

The conference streak is impressive regardless. But it has to be considered in light of the fact the obvious lack of quality of Big 12 programs in comparison to other conferences.

During Bill Self's tenure, there isn't another program in the Big 12 that even compares with the SEC #2 -- Florida.

@HighEliteMajor

It is true the ultimate prize is making a final 4 and winning the national championship. However I'm not in agreement with some of those metrics when comparing the strengths of conferences.

Does two teams make a conference great? I really don't know, yet to so many it seems to. I guess if team y and team x have some success in the tournament then they play in a great conference?

Maybe I'm wrong but hasn't the Big 12 won the Big12/SEC challenge every year?

I agree the Big 12 has for the most part stunk it up in the Tourney. Yet to say their the weakest conference because of it? I'm not sure I can wrap my arms around that one.

@Texas-Hawk-10

I was reaching back to the Roy Williams years to point out that the Big 8/ Big 12 was stronger during that period than it has been during the Self period.

OU, Texas and Mizzou all had one seeds while Williams was at KU.

OU, Texas, and OSU all went to a Final Four while Williams was here.

OSU went to the FF in 2004. OU went in 2016. That means during the streak, only 1 Big 12 team (not counting KU, obviously) has gone to the Final Four.

No other Big 12 team has gotten a #1 seed during the streak.

The Big 12 is full of good teams, but not many great ones.

Npoy 2003 TJ Ford before streak. During streak
Durant, Griffin, Heild

Three NPOY Bill has overcome whole at KU. Roy overcame exactly zero NPOY in the big12.

5 NPOY from the big12 over the last 14 years is pretty salty!

So...if Gonzaga decides to really load up on the imports, gets the best Canadian, Australian and Euro players and wins the NCAA 5 years in a row, would the WCC become the best and strongest conference? Just sayin'...

@dylans

Here are the top 2 NCAA seed teams during the streak:

2 - Oklahoma State 2005, Oklahoma 2009, Oklahoma 2016, K-State 2010, Texas 2006, Texas 2008, Missouri 2012 (7 total)

1 - None

Williams years

2 - Iowa State 2000, Iowa State 2001, Oklahoma State 1992, Oklahoma 2002 (4)

1 - Oklahoma 1989, Oklahoma 1990, Oklahoma 2003, Texas 2003, Missouri 1994 (5)

I would go on a limb and say the best team during the Streak (probably the 2009 Oklahoma squad that lost to eventual champ UNC) isn't as good as either the 1989 or 2003 OU teams, the 2003 Texas team or possibly that '94 Mizzou team (undefeated in the Big 8 ).

Yes, I think Duke would be duplicating what we've done. UNC has been up and down a little bit, heck, Roy didn't win this league but 9 out of the 14 years he was in town.

@DoubleDD did I miss something? - -who said the Big 12 is the weakest conference? - -are you talking of the 3? - - -not sure about that, I know and I'm just speaking on my own behalf - I sure don't think we are the weakest - -I think we are stronger then the SEC. - -But the question pertaining to this thread was could Kentucky do what KU has done, and to I have to respond that I think they would have a chance, that doesn't speak for the entire conference, the conference as a whole I think Ku - -Baylor - -Oklahoma - -West Virginia - -Iowa State - we are stronger then the SEC as a Conference, maybe not yrs back but in the present tense - -our teams would match with theirs I have no doubt. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Lots of gray. No doubt, the Big 12 is weaker than the ACC and Big 10. No way we win 13 in a row in the SEC with UK and Florida. I doubt anyone disagrees there. No way we win 13 with Arizona, UCLA and Oregon in the Pac 12. Are they better? Not sure. How about the American?

In the American, there is UConn, WSU, and Cincinnati -- all arguably better programs in the last five years than any other Big 12 team aside from Kansas. Arguably. UConn for sure is. The Big East? Butler, Nova, Creighton, G'town, Providence. Big 12 is probably better.

Am I not giving the Big 12 enough credit?

There is just too much history of big time NCAA tourney failure against the world of CBB to give the Big 12 any real credit as a conference as a whole.

@dylans

Don't forget Michael Beasley, I seem to recall he was co-player of the year with Hansbrough and at the time KSU also had Walker and other good players.

@HighEliteMajor Giving just the right amount of credit. When games matter, Big XII has been awful.

Non-con record doesn't mean anything when other teams are prepping for the tournament. OSU taking UNC to the wire in November means nothing come March. TCU starting 18-0 going into conference play means nothing when all 18 games were against schools for the blind.

When teams cut their rotations and play their best basketball, Big XII has been getting beat. As simple as that.

I posted on the weakness of the current B12 as a reality check on our future- not to run down our prolific conference winning streak, which is one of the most amazing streaks in the history of college basketball. It is simply an incredible achievement, and I am very proud of our coach, our players, and our program.

@KUSTEVE Don't you know by now that we have entered the era of forced absolutes, when subtlety is forbidden and seeing both sides of an issue is fatal?

@mayjay You can't see both sides but apparently it's all right to see "many sides" - though who it's fatal to is sadly another question.

I'm not sure anybody would argue that the Big 12 is the strongest. Yet I have to question those that think a Duke, UNC, or UK could accomplish what KU has done in the Big 12. Weak or not. Winning a conference is an accomplishment, and when you win it 13 years in a row. Well that is one for the ages and record books.

I'm not trying to be mean or pick a fight. Yet some of you act is if it's a no-brainer that Duke, UNC, or UK would do the same if they played in the Big 12? Yet didn't UK miss the tournament one year. Hasn't both Duke and UNC had some down years during KU's streak?

I look to the old Big East when it was in it's heyday. There was a team that dominated that conference for I think 3 years? Yet they never had any success in the tourney. Even though the foes they beat through out the year had way more success in the tourney. What was that school? Pitt.

Maybe I'm wrong I just don't see how one can correlate a strong conference with how well it does in the tourney. I mean yes has it's place in the discussion. Yet one KU fan here posted that teams in these tough conference aren't worried about winning the conference as they are preparing for tourney play. So these games of matchups mean nothing. OK well if that's the case how can we draw the conclusion that this or that conference is strong because they have a few teams do well in the tourney? After all they are preparing for the tourney and don't put much importance on non-con games and conference games.

Another problem I have with the concept of tourney success deciding what a tough conference is. Well the tourney is largely based off matchups. Who here is going to stand up and argue that Duke doesn't get the easiest paths to the final 4? Yes you still have to play those games and win. Yet it sure helps when the committee has your back. Lets not mention the seeding process of the NCAA committee is something less then to be desired. Come on we all know it and have seen it. There have been some good teams that could pushed down to a lower seed so the NCAA/CBS and get a must watch game. Plus the NCAA tournament is a OAD. One bad night and the season is over. The best team doesn't always win. It doesn't mean that team played in a weak conference.

Someone posted my argument was flawed. Yet I'm thinking if you solely base conference strength just off tourney success? Well I kind of think that is flawed too.

@DoubleDD Pitt definitely made a FF in the Old Big East during their solid run.

@DoubleDD It isn't like we are basing our argument on one or two tournament showings. We are talking about the Big 12 for 13 seasons. We are talking about 50+ games. Plenty large enough of a sample size for things to even out.

@Kcmatt7

Did they make it to a final 4? I wasn't sure about that. I know they had some early exits, and flirted with being the first #1 seed to lose in the tourney.

Maybe I should check my facts before I post? :face_palm_tone1:

@Kcmatt7

Am I missing something? Decided to some research and it shows Pitts last final four in 1941? Also it's only final 4.

@DoubleDD you're right. I thought their elite 8 run was a FF run.

@DoubleDD I would agree. I don't think any other team in the country would have done what Bill Self has done if they were in our place in the Big 12. What Bill Self does in the regular season, and in getting the most from some lesser talented guys, is unmatched. That's his clear strength.

DoubleDD said:

Ok so let the arguement begin. Could UK, UNC, or Duke duplicate what KU has done these last 13 years? If UK, UNC, or Duke were in the Big 12 would they be on the cusp of setting the record for the most consecutive conference championships?

Duke, UNC, UK don't care and that's why they wouldn't be able to replicate KUs streak. These programs have made it pretty clear- all they care about are championships and they make sure all their recruits know it also. Conf wins/streak is a nice to have, but, since Self is a steak guy, i use this analogy:

you go to a steak restaurant for the steak, not for the appetizers. Sure the appetizers help and the joint can have the best tasting appetizers consistently each and every day, but they will always (rightfully so) be judge on their steak.

@elpoyo

So you admit your Wildcats couldn't duplicate KU's dominance. in conference play? :fingers_crossed_tone4:

Well thanks for at least understanding what my point is or was.

195-41 in Conference play. That's Bill Self's record during the streak. Amazing.

Seems unlikely anyone could match that kind of consistent excellence during the regular season even with the teams mentioned in the OP. Self has replaced entire starting lineups before much like the other blue bloods. There has been some luck involved but mostly Self knows how to motivate these kids into passing on the baton to the next team. As much as Self is a great coach, the players have also took it upon themselves to not be the group that breaks the streak.

At this point I'm not sure how the fan-base would handle a down year or the possibility of not winning the conference. It's been completely ingrained into our brains now. We get every Big-12 conference opponents best game on a consistent basis but yet we are still confident and cocky enough to know that a majority of those games KU is going to find a way to outscore the other team. The level to which KU has to play in order to stay on top cannot be underestimated even if we have superior talent in almost every game. Kudos to Self and the players for this crazy streak

@DoubleDD

The only way Duke, UK, or UNC could have duplicated KU's conference winning streak with the same quality and depth of talent that KU has had to make do with (no OAD 1s and 5s, and usually less than 3 OADs, often 1 or none, and sometimes no Mickey Ds at all), would be with Self. Self is the only coach today remotely good enough to do what he has done.

Now, if Self had been at Duke, UK, or UNC, and had dump trucks coming to town as Coach K, Cal and Roy have had, well, I think it would be quite likely that Self would have won at least 10 national championships and perhaps 13.

It is just not even close anymore.

Has Coach K, or Cal, or Roy gone to a National Finals without a Mickey D? No.
Has Coach K, or Cal, or Roy won a ring without better material than Self had? No.
Has Coach K, or Cal, or Roy been able to win as high of a percentage of games over the last decade with better material than Self has? No.
Has Coach K, or Cal, or Roy, ever won a ring at a non EST program, as Self has done? No.
It goes on and on.

Self is up here.
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Coach K, Cal and Roy are down here.
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Everyone else is down here.

@Kcmatt7

Here is the complete record...

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Buffer 1

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@jaybate-1.0 So if you want to place it that way then I guess it comes down to who the better recruiters are then right? -- -Is it any of these Coach's fault's that they are able to pull these recruits to their Schools ? - -Didn't Think so. - - Could they get these recruits due to location of the School? - -Pretty fair bet that it is. -- Ya Coach is a hell of a coach - I wouldn't trade him for anyone of these guys BUT the question was Could UK - Duke - -or NC duplicate what KU has done if they were in the Big 12.

Because considering the Schools that's in our Conference and who these Schools are UK - -Duke - -NC it all comes down to the power of the Conference , this Conference OTHER then KU has had no consistency, if we did KU would have had a much bigger challenge to accomplish what they have accomplished. - -Other then a year here a year there the teams in this Conference are no shows in the tourney.

It's not about who we have or who they have - -Again if we want to go that route then KU lags in getting prize recruits to Coach K - - coach Cal - -& Roy - -To say Coach Self is up here and they are down there is just over left field - - again just my opinion - which this is suppose to be about right? - -No wrong answers right? - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer54

I jerked it right down the power alley and out of the park.

Coach K, Cal, and Roy would have been long forgotten had they not had the Dump Trucks for much of their entire careers.

Self is so much better coach than these guys it is not even close. I suspect each of them would admit. Bo Ryan is the only guy even close to Self the last ten years. I'm not positive Self could have coached some of Bo's teams and beaten Bo coaching some of Self's teams. Bo was a flipping genius that passed himself off as just another cheese head. And Bo, after all, was the guy Self stole drive ball from and put it on steroids to create BAD BALL. I would have to rate Bo and Bill about equal, because even though Self won at a much higher percentage, well, he was doing it at KU and Bo was doing his magic up in the cheddar tundra, where the great basketball legacy got truncated back in the 1940s in Mad Town until Bo was able to build on what Dick Bennett built the foundation of and do some just plain amazing things without dump trucks. Imagine Coach K trying to gut it out to stay above .500 with most of Bo's teams!

But I don't want you to think I don't respect Coach K.

I think the first 20 years of Coach K's career he was one of the all time great coaches with a great coaching foundation from Knight and a helioarc weld grade of fire in his belly. As long as he did what Knight told him and got some players, he was ferociously competitive and he apparently taught that Big Ten cheap-shot-em into the next century whenever you get ten down in order to stay in the game that he apparently learned from Knight at Army. He was very successful, because of his competitive intensity and his encyclopedic knowledge of the stuff Knight taught him. He probably should have won another two titles back in those days, but was struggling with Dean's Dapper Dan-Sonny Vaccaro Proto-Dump Truck teams and the usual asymmetric whistle young coaches face. But from the moment Coach K first had to bail out of a season, because of his health problems and burn out back in the mid 1980s, or was the first time a little later, IMHO he's never been up on the same edge since. He's just been a sound coach willing to go to the wall with the cheap-shotting to stay in a game long enough for his superior roster talent to weigh in. I don't know what happened to K back then. I never really understood it. He was really driven to beat Dean and maybe he just drove himself too hard. Whatever, ever since, when he had superior material, he won a lot, and when he didn't, he just fell back to the pack until he could round up another bunch. Somewhere in there shoes appeared to became the biggest driver of his recruiting success and it never changed afterwards.The big problem with Coach K is that he is just not creative. Self has made more brilliant innovations that spread around the game of basketball and changed the way the entire profession coached than Coach K has in his entire career. Self is just the most incredibly adaptable coach in the country the last 10 years. He was running high-low when everyone here and everyone across the country was running other stuff. As soon as 2/3s of the country had copied him, he shifted gears and took small ball out through the roof. When everyone else was trying to control tempo like Wooden and Knight and Calhoun and then Calipari had taught them, Self was at a completely new level of the game letting the other team set the tempo. When half the country started letting the other team set the tempo, Self jump shifted into setting the tempo. For years Self was stretching defenses with the high low and perimeter passing to create impact space, while the rest of the coaches were getting wet about the Princeton, the Princeton on Steroids and other timing offenses. When every one jumped on his bandwagon and was going on about "spacing this" and "spacing that" Self started collapsing the spacing with Drive Ball, and then later with Bad Ball. And then when everyone copied that Self leaped in 4 out 1 in that a few others had pioneered and then before you know it he is playing 5 out at times. And I'm not even talking about all the defensive wizardry he has introduced. Hell, Self tells everyone what he is doing on the offense, but its the defense where he is secretive and they can't figure out how to copy him. He was running junk defenses a full two seasons before anyone at this web sight even figured it out. He finally had to tell everyone. Hell, Self has tried and thrown away more terrific ideas than Coach K ever even thought about and couldn't figure out how to try.

Don't even get me started on Calipari. That guy has never had an original idea in his life. Everything you see is either LB, or that high school coach that came up with the Dribble Drive. Calipari has two secrets: WWW and Nike.

Roy? Roy did really well aping Dean's "system" at KU, which was Iba's 3-2 high low that Dean called the Carolina Passing offense, and taking the west half of the Dean-Sonny-Nike Tennis Shoe-Industrial complex feeder line. This was very much like Coach K aping Knight. But the thing about Roy was that the last two years at KU he (and probably Dean and Gutt) FINALLY figured out running systematically, rather than running to outrun and wear down another team. He finally worked out the math, so to speak. Spike the number of trips, take more high percentage shots on more trips, run the secondary break to get super high percentage shots, trap on the other end to give up an easy basket or two in exchange for a half dozen strips, and against a team that is trying to slow it down and run the stuff, your athleticism is going to weigh in over time, even when the opponent starts the rough stuff. It was a brilliant insight and lead to two fine years at KU and then a half dozen at UNC, before folks like Self exposed how to jump the passing lanes and funnel to the lane for help and, boom, the race horse is stuck in glue. Roy stumbled around trying to find another way to keep running, but without Dean and Gutt to help him come up with another hat rabbit, Roy bogged down for a few years at UNC. And then he got into that awful "Easy Class Gate" stuff that UNC maybe should have gotten a death penalty for, but didn't, and low and behold, ol' Roy starts running drive ball and the weave and aping Self pretty much the same way Calhoun did when he was in his flat lining days UConn trying to eek out another ring. Both Calhoun and ol 'Roy should have dedicated their last rings to the Master Hat Rabbiteer, Bill Self, and to their Shoe Companies.

Don't get me wrong. Coach K, Cal and ol'Roy are hall of fame coaches. But they just couldn't take Self's players and beat if Self were coaching their players. Not in this basketball universe.

And, well, Self has shown he can beat Roy AND Cal, when they had equal, or better talent.

Self up here.
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Coach K, Cal and Ol'Roy down here.