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Tharpe's Performance Inexplicable
Mar 02, 2014 05:09 AM #1

A number of weeks ago, I posted some thoughts on wanting more from Naadir Tharpe. Against Oklahoma St., in what may unfortunately be a preview of our NCAA tournament exit, Naadir Tharpe played a horrific game. Inexplicable, really. I’m not really left wanting more. What I am wanting is some intestinal fortitude.

Much worse than Tharpe’s actual performance vs. OSU was his whipped puppy demeanor. Definitively for me, this game proved that Naadir Tharpe is no leader. I have never seen a true leader act the part of the victim. I have never seen a true leader present such defeated body language. I have never seen a true leader bring his team down to this degree. And I’ve never seen a true leader appear so utterly unprepared for such a big stage.

Tharpe, the team’s stated leader, drops in on Gallagher-Iba with seven well-earned turnovers. Don’t believe the boxscore. It wasn’t six -- it was seven. Tharpe also caused at least one other turnover as he wasn’t paying attention when Selden threw the ball cross after a press break (a particular situation when Tharpe needs to be looking). Tharpe got lucky when we escaped a turnover after Embiid bounced one off his head; again, Tharpe wasn’t paying attention in a situation where he had to be attentive. Inexplicable.

I’m now beginning to understand the pursuit of Jaquan Lyle. And I’m beginning to wonder if we should have all chipped in for more tutoring for Anrio Adams.

This all is on top of the fact that Tharpe compromises our defense night in, and night out, with shoddy angles, low intensity, and a genetic predisposition to getting “beasted.” I have described Ellis and Tharpe as Mr. and Mrs. Finesse … I now have no doubt who the Mrs. is. And for those somewhat offended by gender references, that means that Tharpe played like a woman. Which is not like a man.

Tharpe was plainly not ready to play tonight. On a huge stage, ESPN game day, against a team that was a preseason favorite to make a run at our crown, with a #1 seed hanging in the balance, Tharpe slinks on and off the court as if he was waiting for a whippin’ from his mommy.

Self stuck him on the bench in favor of Mason and Frankamp late in the first half. That’s our junior leader? That’s the guy that’s going to lead us to the promised land? Benched for Frankamp at OSU on March 1? Unbelievable.

Earlier in the season, Tharpe is reported to have questioned whether Self “liked him.” He pouted. He was replaced by Mason as a starter. I kept my thoughts on that to myself as I did not want to jump to a conclusion. But as the season has played out, the picture is becoming clearer. Tharpe is a wimp. He’s not a guy that you would hitch your wagon to. He won’t be there through thick and thin. When the going gets tough, Tharpe might get going. Maybe. If he’s not too intimidated by it.

I was a big Tharpe proponent heading into the season, but the guy has lost me. His shooting has been a God-send. No doubt the best shooter in the rotation. But can we survive his obvious passivity and lack of intensity?

Until tonight, I have felt that we can survive our claimed point guard deficiencies. Right now, I don’t think so. This non-performance by Tharpe vs. OSU was like a life changing event -- it's hard to put that toothpaste back in the tube. Despite Tharpe’s lack of leadership and production, we still should have won the game. Our season may come down to whether we can survive a Tharpe no-show or two in the tournament. Count me a skeptic. It's not where I want to be in early March.

Mar 02, 2014 05:39 AM #2

@HighEliteMajor Tharpe was bad, but so were a few others. Can't put it all on him. He was bad, but Self must see more than we do. Ugly game!

Mar 02, 2014 06:38 AM #3

@HighEliteMajor thank you!

I now feel justified in voicing my displeasure. Remember the last two years when Tharpe would get jerked out of the game after one mistake? Well, now he's staying in the game way too long ala EJ last year.

We need our PG to "manage" the game. Don't turn it over and get the ball to the scorers. That's it. Just don't screw it up.

I assume it's too late to change course now. But I still feel CF could do the job. Tonite he snapped the ball around the perimeter and got it to the right people all without launching one shot. If he played 30 minutes we would have won. IMHO.

Mar 02, 2014 09:20 AM #4

@HighEliteMajor Eeesh!! Scathing! Can't say it was unwarranted though. What will coach do now? That's the big question here, not which round will we get bounced in. Coach has to make a decision. Since the start of the conference, I always felt we would lose this game anyways. It is a tough place to win at, especially for KU.

  • list item Okie state was foaming at the mouth for this game, their season was riding on it, ours wasn't.

Seeding may or may not be affected by this loss but the team's spirit sure could be. Coach has to decide if Naa can pull it together, think next game and move on, Or if he should be playing Mason to start with next up off the bench as needed. Coach has to decide if it is too late in the season to pull a major rotation change, not us. I just watched Money Ball for the first time, so I am feeling a bit optimistic here after KU's loss. I'm betting Coach will do exactly what is necessary and not one bit more. Lyle wont help us right now, they have to win with what they have right now.

Mar 02, 2014 11:55 AM #5

@HighEliteMajor I have been a skeptic of Tharpe's for some time as well. I have been a fan too, thinking his shooting and driving abilities both above average, but there's always been that doubt in my mind as to whether he was capable of being the starting PG at Kansas. I brought it up over a month ago, as I dare say Anrio Adams named hadn't been mentioned on these boards prior to me bringing him up, but I recalled how I lamented him losing the battle last year for the back-up PG duties. I just had a hard time seeing Tharpe as our starting PG for the following 2 seasons. But even that was based more (at the time) on Adams' physical advantages. And while his well-documented defensive deficiencies are still a huge drawback, his mental lapses, errors in judgment, & overall lack of leadership is the biggest hurdle for this team.

Options? Short-term it's Mason & Frankamp. Neither impressed at OSU, but neither were as big net-negative as Tharpe either. Lyle next year? I still see that as a stretch. As has been pointed out, it's not like this guy is a top 10, can't miss recruit. He's right in the neighborhood of most guys who take at least a year to flourish in Self's system.

To your point, yes we still should have won the game. Consider everything else that didn't go well - as stated, Mason had a pretty poor game as well, Wiggins shot wasn't falling, & Joel re-injured his back. I think we can survive against a team the quality of OSU in the tournament with a Tharpe "no-show" (meltdown might be more accurate) if we don't have a list of other things go wrong. However, against a team better than OSU...don't bet on it. So frustrating.

Mar 02, 2014 12:56 PM #6

I don't think you pull Tharpe now. You go with who got you here......even though he has been inconsistent during the process of getting us here. We just have to hope that Tharpe bounces back. I don't think he will be as bad as last night. It seemed like we had a lack of focus across the board. Wiggins with 6 TO's. Selden and Tharpe missing connections on the one pass at mid court.
This does remind me of the up / down year of EJ last year. I don't think you CAN switch gears now.....it's too late in the season.
But HEM is right......a bad game from him in the tournament and we are done.

Mar 02, 2014 03:50 PM #7

Self can switch gears anytime he has someone better.

He doesn't have someone better. Mason is faster, but that's all.

Self's anger flared, perhaps because he knows he is cornered.

Great talent he might never have again and he just lost Embiid, the only guy that can make it win.

He is looking at probably 8-9 losses now even with the title, if Joel has to rest till tourney time, and ten without. Ten losses puts a damper on his W&L statement.

With him uninjured probably 1 or no losses.

Let's hope the treatments can work miracles again.

Mar 02, 2014 03:52 PM #8

more concerned about Embiid's health than Tharpe's lack of leadership and inability to focus from play to play. without a "tweaked" back, KU celebrates its 10th in Gallagher-Iba. with a "tweaked" back, KU struggles to get to the Sixteen.

Mar 02, 2014 04:18 PM #9

@icthawkfan316 It is his inconsistency that is frustrating, not that he is not good enough. He knows how to handle a trap better than what he did last night. However, dont act like Tharpe single handedly cost them the game. 22 turnovers cost them the game, and almost everyone contributed to that. They had a chance to close out the game when they were up 10, but they had too many stupid turnovers and bad shots and therefore squandered the lead.

Mar 02, 2014 04:20 PM #10

@HighEliteMajor-A few observations from my chair.

1) This is not Tharpe's first inexplicable game to me. His lackadaisical performance immediately in the first half brought to mind the Florida game & snowballed continually into an even greater debacle since this is March & flippin' crunch time for the committee. About the only thing Bilas said all night that I agreed with was that the Jayhawks were shooting off their feet.

2) I also concur that Wigs gave it away far too many times. While our optimism will undoubtedly increase with another W or two, this one will be awfully hard to forget at this point in time. Other than his TO's, which are undeniable huge, he was probably our best all around player for the entire game, particularly after Joel hurt his back. That, is a whole other can of worms in itself. When JE's at 60-70% we are virtually screwed. I also thought Wayne played well for the most part too, at least not repeatedly throwing the damn thing away time after time.

3) One other item I'd like to convey is that Perry just plays as tentative as ever, & acts like he's never seen a double at times, making such poor decisions on when to put it on the floor. That's about as nice as I can state it at this point so will not hammer the H out of him. As far as all the speculations about him at the 3, fuggedaboutit. Way too slow with the first step. He's almost as big a disappointment to me as Tharpe. Nadir just has more experience.

4) IMO all 3 other Freshman starters are playing above the levels of Perry & Tharpe most all of the while. At least they are more consistent. It may very well be too late for Frank or CF to get much more PT, unless Tharpe has an injury, but more Black & Traylor should be definitely be on Bill's platter PDQ. You have 10 fouls between them & I say use em if ya have to. Maybe next time we'll hit a few of our own damn FT's& pull out a road win. JMO.

Mar 02, 2014 04:48 PM #11

HEM To me, it seems as though one minute he plays great and the other he doesnt. A lot of what we do here is speculation. For example, we dont know how far the team will go in the tournament, if they will get hot and peak in late March, if they will bring their full intensity to the games, or whether or not Tharpe will not turn the ball over. We dont know any of those things.

Sometimes I wonder what Self tells his players when they are turning the ball over repeatedly like last night. I wonder what he tells Tharpe when he jacks up a three point shot early in the shot clock.

All of Tharpes mistakes(yes all of them) are very basic and correctable. For example, when he passed the ball to the other side of the court to Selden who then threw it back to him when he wasnt looking. To me, that says that he didnt have his head in the game.

To me, Tharpe having his head in the game and really focusing will determine how far we go. And dont get me started on this Jaquin Lyle stuff. We have the tools NOW to at least get to the Final Four, which I would be elated if they just did that. My point is that people are always so unhappy with what we have and want something else and they dont realize that what they have is in fact good enough. We know that every single one of KUs turnovers last night were unforced and the result of carelessness. OSU did not force a single KU turnover. If the team isnt carless with the ball the whole game, they win.

To me, we need COACH SELF to be the leader of the team. Yes, Tharpe should set the tone and be the floor general. I get that. But Self is the coach, not Tharpe, and has to help the team when they are struggling to not turn it over. That is all Self's responsibility.

It is possible for this team to make it to the Final Four, which considering how young this team is would be an incredible accomplishment. Its possible that this loss will help them be smarter with the ball and help motivate them to play better. Remember, the 08 team's three conference losses were the same as this year: at Texas, at Kansas State, and at Oklahoma State.

Mar 02, 2014 06:15 PM #12

@HighEliteMajor

You have excellent vision about the game of basketball. And what I like even more is your guts for being able to call it like you see it. I wanted to come on here and do another thread on Tharpe... but I needed to be pushed because that game really soured my soul. I'm glad you took the lead on this one, and saved many of us from writing all the tough language that really does need to be said.

Months ago I posted my own ranking system for this team to describe my terms and hopeful projection for this team. My ranks goes as follow: COLD COLD COLD, WARM WARM WARM, WARMER WARMER WARMER, and HOT HOT HOT! This team has been stuck on WARM WARM WARM for a couple of months now. As I indicated, it is a level of play capable of winning a lot of games, but not a level of play capable of winning a NC. With just a few games left, there is no way for us to show consistency enough to jump to a higher rank (in my books). This is all my own system.

As of now, I have two teams that are HOT HOT HOT. I would rate these two teams as my favorites in bracketology. Florida and Wichita State. As we all know, WSU does not have the talent level near Florida or anyone else in the top spots. But WSU has the characteristics of a winning team (regardless of who they are playing). The #1 characteristic is they come ready to play every single game. Shooting streaks come and go, but that team comes ready to fight. Same with Florida. Teams in my WARMER WARMER WARMER bracket include Virginia, St. Louis, SDSU, Arizona (close to being HOT HOT HOT).

I rank the level of play ahead of talent on a team. Us and Kentucky are the two most-talented teams. Neither of us are ready for March, or even close. The issue is consistency. And with us, the biggest factor weighing in on our consistency problem is Tharpe... followed by Ellis.

Last night we should have blown out the Cowboys. Wiggins, Embiid and Selden were prepared to give them a beat down. Ellis wasn't too far off of these 3. Really... our entire team was ready to put a smash on the Cowboys... everyone except Tharpe.

I know we can look at the stat line and start sharing blame. It shows Wiggins as matching Tharpe's TOs with 6. Those numbers aren't right. First... I counted Tharpe's mistakes and in the least he was at 8 TOs. At least two of his mistakes were given to others... like where he moved off his position and the pass came back to him and an empty spot.

Tharpe's poor play was like having a dragster at the track, with all aspects of the motor, transmission, suspension, everything right... except 1 piston blown out. That's all it takes for a dragster to lose big. Tharpe was our blown out piston. His TOs, lack of leadership, lack of control on pace, poor defense, misguided play... it all took our team that was ready to kill and made them a horrible mess.

There is no sharing of loss on this one. This is Tharpe's loss.

In Tharpe's defense... he wasn't a top guard coming out of HS. And he wasn't even a PG. He came to Kansas with the understanding he would be a backup player. So he has had a great year. But he may be in over his head.

@HighEliteMajor ... now you understand the need for Lyle next year. He may or may not be ready to lead this team, but we have to have plenty of solid options at point because otherwise, we will be in this same situation again. We can all hope and dream that Tharpe will mature into being solid... but it isn't something we can count on.

Plenty of blame needs to go to the top... on CS. For whatever reason he has never seemed to be able to snag the best PG for what we need. We have always been like some of the best Chiefs teams of the past couple of decades... best running backs, best pass rushers... best best best... but finishing out of the money because we didn't have a 5-star quarterback. The PG is the quarterback of the team. And we can go ahead and get the best 2, 3, 4 and 5 players in the country and we still won't win without the right PG. I'd rather have what WSU has... and have a kick ass PG with a team full of just decent players, then the other way around.

I'm very frustrated with CS. I totally respect his coaching ability and him as a person. He has been perhaps the best coach in the history of Kansas! But he is missing knowledge on certain aspects of the game that is preventing him from winning even at a higher rate! Imagine if he was able to land a talented PG who was coached into being the best! Imagine if he was able to always bring his team ready to play!

Out of all the complications involved in basketball, those are the only two areas were CS needs help. That is amazing... but it is also very frustrating. Because we are a dragster with a monster 7000 hp engine that is missing on one cylinder. And sometimes we lose to a 1972 Pinto with a 1.6L, 54 hp motor!

It is so frustrating to know there isn't a team in college basketball out there that on our best day we wouldn't pound into submission. No one! But we can all clearly see how consistency is going to prevent us from winning 6 games in a row in the tourney. And so the inevitable will occur.... we'll go down to someone we should beat... again!

Bill Self should call Gregg Marshall and ask for help. How can Self develop the team psyche of putting a chip on these guys' shoulders? Marshall has done it with a team that overachieved and made it to the FF last year. Those guys should have been fat and sassy this year, and back playing in the NIT. And here we are... having lost another heartache game to Michigan in the tourney last year, and we are fat and sassy.

Mar 02, 2014 06:25 PM #13

We need our PG to "manage" the game. Don't turn it over and get the ball to the scorers. That's it. Just don't screw it up.

I assume it's too late to change course now. But I still feel CF could do the job. Tonite he snapped the ball around the perimeter and got it to the right people all without launching one shot. If he played 30 minutes we would have won. IMHO.

@VailHawk Well said!

I think we've put too much expectation out of 90+ ranked Tharpe or 70+ ranked Mason. Mason showed more athletic abilities than Tharpe, but so far Mason is just a bull dog who showed more of his driving capabilities. If he has as high a ceiling of Tyshawn, he might become another Tyshawn when he is a senior. Somehow I don't see it. I'd like to see Frankamp develop more speed and I like the fact that he already demonstrated glimpse of smarts playing the point.

Mar 02, 2014 06:42 PM #14

@drgnslayr You win as a team, and you lose as a team. Losses are NEVER on one person. Everyone contributed. That includes Bill Self and the coaching staff.

As I said earlier, you do with what you have, and having Tharpe with his head in the game and bringing good intensity and focus is good enough to get us to the Final Four, which would be a better result than in years past with very good teams.

Remember, there is a reason that people talk about getting hot in the tournament after having some struggles.

I want people on here to think things for the right reasons and see things for how they really are. For example, could we have a better point guard? Yes. However, we must further analyze Tharpes weaknesses to see what might cost us getting to Dallas. To me, his biggest weakness is being careless and not focusing. When Tharpe has focused and has not turned the ball over, isnt that good enough to at least get us to the Final Four? Of course it is!

It is not too much to expect your point guard to not be careless and not turn the ball over. If all Tharpe did was play good defense, move the ball well, set the pace, and not turn it over, it would be a good game.

Drgnslary you bring up a good point about this team not having a chip on its shoulder. However, the only teams we have had in the Bill Self era that have had a chip on their shoulder are the 12 and 08 teams.

You also make a point about how much better they would be if they had a better point guard. In my opinion, we do not need a different point guard. What we NEED is for coach Self to get Tharpe playing at the right level, which means not turning it over like last night. That is the job of the coach.

Also, I am not hoping and dreaming for Tharpe to mature or whatever else before the tournament. What I am hoping for is that he FOCUSES on fundamental and basic aspects of being the point guard, which is not turning the ball over, making shots when the team needs points, getting out and running(which I have seen him do numerous times despite what others say), and finding open teammates.

If they dont make it to the Final Four, it will be because Tharpe doesnt play SMART, not because he is incapable as some make him out to be. He is inconsistent, not incapable. What I hope for is Self taking charge of the team and getting the team and Tharpe ready to make a run in March.

Mar 02, 2014 06:52 PM #15

@drgnslayr I'll tell you, after I posted this last night I kind of wondered if I should have taken a deep breath and waited until morning. I literally wrote that in 10 minutes. Very frustrated, but it wasn't a momentary frustration. When I did the post on wanting more from Tharpe, it had been building a bit. A questioning of where his level of play could take us.

The only thing I would change in the post is when I referred to Tharpe as a "wimp." I about edited it this morning. I think I'd rather say that he "projects himself as a soft and disinclined player, and plays many times without any apparent grit." I think we're all saying the same thing.

I think what I am having more appreciation for each day is the mental and physical toughness that coach Self tries to teach these guys, and how much that impacts every facet of the game.

@globaljaybird said above that when Embiid is "60-70% we are virtually screwed." And he's right. If Embiid is down, all of this discussion is immaterial. He truly is the key to our assent as we pretty much all agreed early on.

But Tharpe is the key to our possible descent -- to our unthinkable plunge into the abyss. Assuming we're healthy, he really is the one guy that can drag us down. But there is not much choice now. He's the card that Self has put on the table -- it's just a matter of whether we match that 8 of clubs with a face card, or 7. Right now, it seems a bit like luck of the draw.

Mar 02, 2014 06:53 PM #16

@DinarHawk Good points. We don't need Tharpe to win games for us. We just need him to not lose games for us. I think he is capable of doing that.
I still hold out hope that Self and the staff can help him do that. If so, it is then a matter of the youngsters continuing to get better....which we have seen, to have a shot at a final four.
Admittedly, after last night that is hard to envision. Usually, teams that make runs have started to gel by now. Let's see how it plays out.

Mar 02, 2014 07:02 PM #17

@DinarHawk

"You win as a team, and you lose as a team."

I typically support that statement. That is my statement from last year when people were pointing at EJ.

But this game I can't see past Tharpe. He only had to play marginal for us to win. This is his team. He is the floor general. And he is the player that is responsible for this outcome.

It is rare when I go against your statement. This is one of those rare moments. We had 3 freshmen who are kids who have never been in this position. None of those kids have ever been to Stillwater. And they brought good game. Their games soured because of the clunky team play... which then points to our floor general. There was no way for those guys to take over and displace the hole Tharpe put us in.

I also blame CS for areas where I've ranted for years now... pretty much every time we go into the tourney and lose to teams we should beat.

I'm not blaming Tharpe as a person. He has overachieved at KU. I'm blaming his performance, because his performance level isn't consistent enough to win out in March. It is hard to say if he can reach his potential to be the consistent player we need him to be. I'm not counting on that and I'm not got to slam Tharpe (the person). We are asking him to be one of the top PGs in the country and he wasn't near that coming out of HS. And I have my doubts that our coaching knows how to coach PGs to their maximum potential.

Mar 02, 2014 07:03 PM #18

@drgnslayr you knew this was coming from me. Self needs to call Marshall for help? Really? When he wins 10 back to back championships, maybe! And throw that in w/a top conference! WSU is a great team. No question there. Seriously, this makes me puke! Would you rather have him?

Mar 02, 2014 07:10 PM #19

@Crimsonorblue22

It makes me puke, too.

Why does Marshall's guys always show up pumped to play? Why don't our guys do that?

Why doesn't Marshall's guys TO the ball 22 times in a game?

How does he get walk-ons to a mid-major taking a team to 31-0, ranked 2, and those players in the hat for some of the personal awards our star players are in?

Why does WSU have a chip on their shoulders this year? They had the best year in their history last year. That wasn't enough?

I'm still pissed off for last year. Why didn't we have a chip for finishing runner-up to UK the year before? We never have a chip! It is the main reason we don't win more NCs!

You know what really makes me want to puke? I see WSU once again trumping our NCAA performance. Tell me it won't happen! And I hope your optimism is right!

I hope this is our last dud performance this year. But, to be honest... my gut tells me it's not!

Why does my gut tell me we will be exiting early again?

I'll answer that... because I don't feel comfortable with our PG play. I know the value of PG play. PG = Quarterback

Sorry... I could probably use another example besides Marshall.. but I can't find another example that better illustrates areas where we need help!

BTW: I'm never going to trade Self for Marshall... or probably anyone else! But there are aspects of his coaching that I feel need help. He could go from being one of the best coaches of our day to becoming perhaps the best coach of all times! (anywhere!)

If Self resolves these issues he will win like Wooden. We'll be stacking up NC trophies in AFH!

Mar 02, 2014 07:24 PM #20

@drgnslayr You know that's an ignorant post, right? I mean, I enjoy your opinion, but you have to know that's flat out ignorance.

Why doesn't Marshall's guys TO the ball 22 times in a game? Why do Marshall's guys always show up pumped to play?

Well, besides the fact that a I think a lineup of Niko, Self, Manning, Wesley, and Christian Garret could probably give Missouri St. a run for their money, it seems kind of obvious. I don't want to bash WSU because right now, they're in fabulous position. But come on.

I saw a stat yesterday that was mind-boggling. If WSU gets a one-seed, which we all think they will, their first game against a 16 seed would be the toughest opponent they've faced outside of SLU! That's incredible.

I agree with everything you said outside of the WSU nonsense. Tharpe is a liability. He's a below average defender and has several games where it almost seems like he's point shaving when it comes to dumb turnovers. If he has a single game like this in the tourney, we're done. Either that or Self will have to sit him for a loooong stretch just to keep him from giving away possessions.

Mar 02, 2014 07:25 PM #21

@drgnslayr That goes back to my first question of what Self is telling his players. I always worry about an early exit and am very worried that it could happen this year. I think that we have to look at yesterday's game with a grain of salt. I am with others in regards to the opinion that Self does not give his best effort against his alma mater. It is certainly a possibility.

You are right about Tharpe. He just needs to be solid and not make the mistakes he made last night. If he just does his job and doesnt try to be the hero, then we'll be in good shape to get to Dallas.

Mar 02, 2014 07:36 PM #22

@MoonwalkMafia

WSU's woeful SOS is even more of a testament to their ability to rise for a game. It's tougher to rise to play another dud team.

My statements weren't about talent level. They were about coming pumped ready to play.

You really want to compare WSU to Niko and our lower bench? Really?

That position is shear arrogance. You might as well throw in all of our history and NCs. It's all about the same relevance to this conversation. All those factors helped us last year... and are starting to look to help us the same this year.

I'm pushing everyone's button because many in here despise WSU. I'm telling you all right now that hatred is holding you back from seeing reality. To deny what they are doing with the talent level they have is really missing the boat.

No.. I'm not saying we drop down and recruit players on their talent level. I'm just addressing the areas of strength they have and what is helping them be ranked ahead of us with walk on players.

If it is so easy to do, we can start doing it now and start Niko and the rest.

It sucks because I'm using WSU to point at our weaknesses. They beat some pretty good teams last year in the tourney, and I'll be surprised if they don't have some level of success again. It will be even harder because their SOS did suck. I still bet they will be formidable in the tourney... even with their walk on starters.

I don't have animosity towards WSU. So I can look at their game and see where they are succeeding... and in my books, they seem to be succeeding in areas where we need help. We are succeeding in areas they need help (recruiting).

None of this is ignorance.

Did you see their game yesterday? Bobby Knight was there as a paying fan and was interviewed about the Shocks.... I'm basically mimicking factors that Knight talked about... just another ignorant fan I suppose?

Mar 02, 2014 07:43 PM #23

@DinarHawk

I will remain hopeful...

I am venting my fears... it is hard to see us playing consistent throughout the tourney.

It is games like this where many of us vent some things. It isn't always easy to vent those things after other games where we still win, but show many of these same issues.

We looked horrible yesterday.

There is added stress now because we are less than a couple of weeks away from the tourney, and we have a game with 22 TOs? Most of those TOs were unforced!

Mar 02, 2014 07:45 PM #24

@drgnslayr I hear you on how impressive it is that WSU has managed to maintain a level of excellence even against lesser teams that might be hard to get 'up' for. But I also believe the margin for error is greater for WSU if they don't get as motivated for a game.

They have not played many teams with individual talent like is seen on teams throughout the power conferences. My enthusiasm is curbed by knowing that if they went up against an unranked team like OSU twice, they would likely lose once. Especially if the previous three games included teams like ISU, Texas and KU. If they were a member of the ACC, Pac12, I think they would not be undefeated.

That's not to say they wouldn't be among the best in the country.. just to say, there's context to be considered in assessing their record and it's not insignificant.

Mar 02, 2014 07:54 PM #25

@bskeet

You are right.. WSU has a smaller margin for error.

This is part of why WSU is the perfect example for us.

Because perhaps we use our high talent level as a crutch... we have such a large margin for error... so we have room to slack off.

Otherwise... heck... we have the #1 and #2 recruits in the nation. We are a shoe-in to win another NC!

I shouldn't worry!

I really hate being in this position. We sit on all the big talent then underachieve come tourney time. I can hear the jabs now... "KU, once again, underachieves at the Big Dance!"

I hate that... and we should all hate that more than hating WSU. If we can understand that... we can swallow a little of our pride and better understand how we can capture some of those qualities that have helped them.

Mar 02, 2014 07:55 PM #26

@drgnslayr Hopefully we got a bad game out of the way before the tournament:)

Mar 02, 2014 07:56 PM #27

@drgnslayr What I said is a lineup of the coach's sons could give Missouri St. a run for their money. You know, the team WSU played this weekend. I guess you misunderstood what I was saying.

I think comparing KU's game yesterday versus a team that has 3 NBA players on it to Missouri St. is ignorance. I think it's very, very ignorant.

Mar 02, 2014 07:57 PM #28

@DinarHawk

I hope that is all it is.

But why don't we throw in some extra motivation for Tharpe. We come down on him hard now and he comes out and plays harder. It's using the bullwhip instead of the carrot!

He seems to respond to the whip.

Mar 02, 2014 07:57 PM #29

@drgnslayr Hopefully that will be the case again and he will be motivated to take his team to Dallas.

Mar 02, 2014 07:58 PM #30

@MoonwalkMafia

What does talent level have to do with coming prepared and motivated?

WSU plays teams with low talent level... but WSU has a low talent level, too. They beat up on their peers 31 times so far.

If it makes you feel better.. I'll use the UCONN women's team and make the same argument. They friggin' rock!

So I guess only the top NBA teams are prepared every game and motivated?

Did you listen to Bobby Knight yesterday?

Mar 02, 2014 08:05 PM #31

@drgnslayr Getting up to play has been a problem since Bill Self got here. Lets hope that this team has a sense of urgency in the tournament.

Mar 02, 2014 08:06 PM #32

@MoonwalkMafia

Sorry... this is the competitive part of me. And when I go in this mode I can be a jerk.

Marcus Smart... move over!

Mar 02, 2014 08:06 PM #33

@drgnslayr We're getting far removed from the point now.

You said why does WSU show up pumped and ready to play. I think the point is that they're playing a team that is .500 in a historically bad conference. WSU is by far the superior team. How pumped do you need to be to beat Missouri St.?

Your comparison of a historically phenomenal women's team is just proving the point for me (I mean didn't UConn go undefeated for two seasons??). When you're playing a team that is significantly inferior to you, how pumped do you need to be?

KU was playing a team that had 3 future NBA players on it (I'm point out how talented OSU is, not that NBA players are prepared and motivated every game...and it doesn't hurt that they were fighting for the postseason fate). WSU won't have play a game against a team with that kind of talent until the round of 32, or the Sweet Sixteen.

To put it simply, how pumped does WSU need to be to play Evansville, Loyola, S. Illinois, etc. The comparison doesn't work. It's a poor one.

It doesn't matter though. No need to apologize. And you could never, ever, be as big of jerk as Marcus Smart.

Mar 02, 2014 08:07 PM #34

we can swallow a little of our pride and better understand how we can capture some of those qualities that have helped them.

@drgnslayr My view is that WSU plays exceedingly well as a unit and knows how to maximize their talents. I think this is what comes with a veteran team -- understanding of how parts fit together.. greater elasticity.. ability to avoid mistakes and make up for them better.

That gives them an advantage in many situations. They also have very good talent.

We have exceptional talent at several positions, but not the experience of how to take advantage of each other. WSU is a better team right now than almost any other out there based on who they have played.

I just don't think they have been tested as much as some other schools.. That doesn't mean they won't win when tested, it just means there's a caveat in my mind. We don't know as much about their weaknesses... and they don't know as much about about their own weaknesses, either.

Mar 02, 2014 08:10 PM #35

And you could never, ever, be as big of jerk as Marcus Smart.

@MoonwalkMafia SO TRUE:

!photo.JPG ↗

thanks @CrimsonorBlue22 for the photo.. Wowsa.

Mar 02, 2014 08:10 PM #36

@bskeet @drgnslayr ^^^ Now that is something I'll agree with. If we're going to go singing WSU praises, how bout their defense (albeit against NAIA teams)? Their offense is average at best, but defense is the kind of thing that travels and can be turned up against anyone.

Mar 02, 2014 08:11 PM #37

@MoonwalkMafia

"You said why does WSU show up pumped and ready to play. I think the point is that they're playing a team that is .500 in a historically bad conference. WSU is by far the superior team. How pumped do you need to be to beat Missouri St.?"

I think you mean... how pumped up does KU needs to be to beat Missouri State. Missouri State is in WSU's league... aren't we all saying they don't have the talent of B12 teams? WSU = MSU WSU needs plenty of motivation to beat MSU, especially at MSU. In fact, MSU game WSU the biggest scare this year by being the only team to take WSU to overtime! Meanwhile... WSU had less trouble at St. Louis, a Top 10 team.

Mar 02, 2014 08:13 PM #38

@bskeet

"And you could never, ever, be as big of jerk as Marcus Smart."

Well.... I know me and I've had a good taste of Marcus Smart.

I can match his jerkiness!

Mar 02, 2014 08:14 PM #39

@drgnslayr I think we're just going to keep repeating ourselves here. Let's just agree to disagree.

...Now all I can think of is Marcus Smart. Very irritated now.

Mar 02, 2014 08:16 PM #40

@drgnslayr we all hate underachieving ! We're a group that loves KU bb! Please understand, I don't hate the WSU team, I love how they play hard! I have a sour taste for "chickenhawk" Marshall! When you suggested Self call him, that hurts, a lot of us! Everyone here respects you, I'm in awe of your knowledge on all things, it's really hard to cross you! There's no way I could win an argument w/you. I hope you understand what I mean??? Rock Chalk!

Mar 02, 2014 08:20 PM #41

@MoonwalkMafia

Talk about a grand slam.... yesterday... for me... it was when Mr. Know-it-all Bilas supported one of Marcus Smart's obvious flops.

He then commented about how if Marcus keeps over emphasizing his falls it might turn against him.

Wow, Bilas... about time. The entire world has discussed this for ages now and you finally pay attention.

Mar 02, 2014 08:21 PM #42

@Crimsonorblue22

"When you suggested Self call him, that hurts, a lot of us! "

I apologize. That is my competitiveness. I went for the biggest eye-opener to stress that we need help in that area.

Like I said... Marcus Smart has nothing on me!

Mar 02, 2014 08:23 PM #43

@drgnslayr I don't think you are as bad as Smart! Not yet, anyway!

Mar 02, 2014 08:27 PM #44

@drgnslayr did you all see he flopped on the baseline when Perry was called for the foul, not the tackle he had on Perry. Saw a gif on both of those today.

Mar 02, 2014 08:29 PM #45

@Crimsonorblue22

Give me time! ;)

What I do well is apologize after I attack peoples' sensibilities.

My ex used to call me out on that... said it was just part of my competitiveness. Still trying to prove I was right or whatever.

My wife doesn't play that hard. She just snickers at my competitiveness.

She knows how to defuse and diffuse...

Mar 02, 2014 08:30 PM #46

@drgnslayr smart lady!!!

Mar 02, 2014 08:32 PM #47

@Crimsonorblue22

Not that smart. She ended up with me! ;)

My ace in the hole is I let her know that pointing out how bad I am also points out how bad of a choice she made!

Just one more competitive angle I've used...

Mar 02, 2014 08:34 PM #48

Once again... sorry to everyone in here about some of my over-the-top statements. I have the upmost respect for everyone in here... I'm already feeling the sadness coming after the season is over and we are all busy in our gardens! Gonna miss everyone in here!

Mar 02, 2014 08:38 PM #49

@drgnslayr I like Jay Bilas. Maybe now's a good time to express how much I can't stand Brent Musberger. Maybe that's unfair....

But clearly he doesn't know the game or the players, and is just all around oblivious to what's going on. Stick him with Fran Franschilla (who I do like, but doesn't offer much to counter Brent's ineptitude) and it's bad news bears.

I didn't get to watch the game last night, I listed to it on the radio. Don't know if anyone likes Bob Davis, but that's a whole nother deal.

Mar 02, 2014 08:38 PM #50

@DinarHawk-100% accurate, 22 TO's is just insane. Plenty of blame to go around, including coach for not pushing the PT more towards alternate options.

Mar 02, 2014 08:42 PM #51

@drgnslayr geez, we're not going anywhere!! I have summers off so I'll be expecting some hot topics. My 'maters have been bad the last 2 years, expecting some help!

Mar 02, 2014 08:45 PM #52

@MoonwalkMafia

I used to like Jay. But the last 2 years I've started to change my opinion. He knows quite a bit about basketball... and often he is right on... but other times I find him to come up short, but his persona is a bit too arrogant. He seems to project that his comments are pure fact when often they are not. I follow his statements closely and I've watched him squirm around after some of his statements later. He seems to be too much like a politician for my liking. A bit too slick sometimes with his words.

That's just my opinion. At least he isn't a total airhead or mush-head!

Mar 02, 2014 08:49 PM #53

@Crimsonorblue22

What's up with your 'maters? Too much heat?

Two years ago I had a really excellent crop when everyone around me had nothing. ('maters)

First... I had my toms in early, so they were producing before the big heat came. Second... I had two water sources for them on timers. I had soakers to feed the roots... and I had misters spraying the tops during the hot time of day. I am blessed with late day shade. Maters like sun... but in super hot weather they like some late day shade, too.

I think my timed daily soaker watering was key. It was so hot that it only took one day without water and they would go into shock. I also mulch big time to keep the ground from cooking up and drying out.

You can save a lot of water by having your soak hoses BELOW your mulch! I'd go with a solid 3" or more of mulch! I use recycled chipper branches from the city trucks. It is free and it is lighter because it is untreated and not dyed. Lighter means it helps keep the soil cooler in the hot months.

Periodically, give your toms some coffee grinds. The grinds are a slow release source of nitrogen. But even better... crawlers LOVE coffee grinds! So they will surface to go after it. And the caffeine jacks them up (just like us). The more active the worms, the more holes they dig in your dirt, and more castings they leave behind! For a 4 month period, I have a relationship with several starbucks in my area. They save me grinds and I always bring them a few nice organic veggies.

If your soil is clay... treat it with gypsum. Over several years, gypsum treatments help break down clay into dirt. Gypsum also is a great source of calcium... something often lacking in soil and helpful for preventing rot end. Of course... turning your soil every year with some compost or composted manure, also helps break down clay. You should condition your soil every year to help revitalize it for another crop year. It helps if you move your veggies around so toms don't always grow in the same spot... but if you can't, soil conditioning will help guarantee another successful year!

BTW: I shouldn't ever get down too hard on the purple kitties. I've always received plenty of help from some of their ag students!

Mar 02, 2014 09:15 PM #54

@drgnslayr LOL. Did they teach all these during your KU days or did you get it from sneaking into the Octagon of whatever?

Mar 02, 2014 09:40 PM #55

@Wishawk

Hahahahaheee... I've never actual been to the Sherronagon. But it looks like it would make an awesome greenhouse! Pluck holes in the roof and bring in some irrigation!

Mar 02, 2014 09:43 PM #56

@drgnslayr We plant 70 per year in the heat here in Texas and each plant has its own mister at the base set with timers. Afternoon shade is essential. Raked leaves piled down each row and around each plant help keep the soil from drying out. Haul them to town in coke flats by the ton and sell them at work. Nothing better than vine ripened sun kissed 'maters.

As far as the game goes, the outcome from last night has to be something they all learn from. I did not think the cards were aligned on our side because OSU had to get the win to even get in the tourney. But our TOs gave OSU the ability to stay within striking distance and they did not squander that chance.

Mar 02, 2014 09:47 PM #57

@drgnslayr I'm saving this for later. Late April talk!

Mar 02, 2014 10:09 PM #58

@RockChalkinTexas

We can all take some pointers from you! Over-heating has been an issue in Kansas for the past years... so someone successful in Texas must have resolved these issues!

Yep... sure you are right about OSU having more to gain from that victory. I just want to stir the pot as much as possible from here on out. Don't want anyone falling asleep come tournament time!

I said a couple of days ago the best outcome for us now would be to drop a couple more games... get beat up by the media and have a lower seed than in previous years. Anything to build a chip on these guys. We know what they can do when they have a chip on their shoulders... they showed us against Texas!

So how do we get the team that mutilated Texas to show up for 6 games in the tourney?

Ultimately... that is what I want to see happen, and I can't think of anything except getting out the bullwhip and crackin' it a few times!

Mar 02, 2014 10:32 PM #59

@drgnslayr Exactly! I have been saying for weeks that they need some more losses to help them get that chip on their shoulder. I felt like they didnt have enough losses in '10 and '11 and felt like they could just show up and win. I am fine if that would be the case. That is why I do not want them to get a 1 seed, because they might get a sense of entitlement as a result of it.

They need to stay a little under the radar and get motivated to play like what they did against Texas.

Mar 02, 2014 10:35 PM #60

@DinarHawk I soooo hope you guys are right! That's tough for me.

Mar 02, 2014 10:35 PM #61

@DinarHawk Do you think the Big 12 tournament will be a motivator?

Mar 02, 2014 10:43 PM #62

@drgnslayr We have the seeds already sprouting in the greenhouse. Usually plant the 3rd week of March. We are at 32 degrees today and supposed to get down in the 20s tonight. Our beans and cucumbers came up in the garden last week and we've had to cover them. Was 82 yesterday. Know you have it worse so hang in there.

Mar 02, 2014 11:18 PM #63

@RockChalkinTexas you are killing me!!

Mar 02, 2014 11:28 PM #64

@RockChalkinTexas

"Our beans and cucumbers came up in the garden last week and we've had to cover them. Was 82 yesterday. Know you have it worse so hang in there."

I hope you meant to say it was 82 degrees yesterday and that you aren't 82 yrs old!

I'm jealous! Looking out my window now at the frozen arctic tundra!

I'm another year away from building my greenhouse. So I spread lots of seeds in the house for now! We don't have any pets... just one wife who gnashes her teeth like a pit bull every time I set up more seeds!

Mar 02, 2014 11:30 PM #65

@drgnslayr 82 funny

Mar 03, 2014 12:04 AM #66

@drgnslayr your wife puts up w/a lot! Jk

Mar 03, 2014 12:11 AM #67

@drgnslayr If I was 82 and still planting a garden I think I must have been a pioneer woman in a past life! Yes 82 degrees and in shorts.

Mar 03, 2014 12:12 AM #68

@Crimsonorblue22 NOT!

Mar 03, 2014 12:12 AM #69

I needed to break from my funk from yesterday's game... so I went searching the net for a good time and ran across this fella:

[

I can be a bit of a geek... but this guy... this guy shows just how overboard someone can go trying to grow.

I'm smiling again! :)

Mar 03, 2014 12:23 AM #70

@drgnslayr I can't show that to my husband. He could build it! Did you see how high the corn was? Must be an engineer.

Mar 03, 2014 01:28 AM #71

I'm guessing this engineer had a brother who was an investment banker:

[

"Investment banker".... does that qualify as an oxymoron?

This guy is a scream! Comparing his gadget for growing peppers to Bernie Madoff!

Mar 03, 2014 01:50 AM #72

@drgnslayr drgn.. I like the teams you indicated, but I'd put Virginia in the hot hot hot group. Their passing game yesterday shredded the Syracuse zone and was a beautiful thing to see. They've got the senior leadership, athleticism and depth to go really far. They'll wear you down, and then pop off a 10-0 run, not give it back, and the game is over. Maybe the silver lining here on us faltering is that if we retain a 2 seed, we probably won't have to face Virginia in our region. They are scary good.

Mar 03, 2014 01:59 AM #73

@approxinfinity love the pride they have in playing D! I like that coach. Watched that coach and then Cal. No doubt who I'd prefer to coach and teach young men! I was impressed.

Mar 03, 2014 02:04 AM #74

@Crimsonorblue22 As I just posted on New Topic, take a look at the Pat Forde article on Coach Cal, Yahoo Sports. As approxinfinity proclaimed: BRUTAL!

Mar 03, 2014 02:16 AM #75

@MoonwalkMafia Thank you for injecting a measure of reason into an over-heated discussion. I too like what Wichita State is doing and also wonder how they will respond to better quality opponents. I always did like the 'Little Engine that could' story and that is what the WheatShocker remind me of. And I hope, if KU doesn't win the national title, that they do.

Mar 03, 2014 04:17 AM #76

@approxinfinity

I think you are right and Virginia is HOT HOT HOT. I haven't followed them enough so I didn't just give them that spot. But I saw that game and they shredded Syracuse just like the way I imagine we would... except we'd do it with better athletes!

However... I've watched probably half of Syracuse's games and they have been beyond lucky. Their ride is about over!

Mar 03, 2014 07:33 AM #77

@drgnslayr

I have mentioned a couple of times that Virginia is the sleeper team this year. They have their best teams since the days of Ralph Sampson, and (for the older folk) Barry Parkhill before that. The are definitively and Elite 8 team and a legitimate Final Four contender as well.

Mar 03, 2014 09:21 AM #78

@drgnslayr I found this bit on espn.go. by Jordan Brenner. Thought I would share it. Granted, it doesn't take into account KU getting beat by a team like Florida or Virginia but, it does say some interesting things about Giant Killer potentials.
Have a look.

With just two weeks until Selection Sunday, we might not know about tourney matchups yet, but key traits are readily apparent. And for fans of some of the best teams in the country, that means it’s time to start worrying.

Giant Killers IDs the most likely NCAA tournament upsets using a process laid out in a little more detail in the right column. Our vaunted statistical model is able to assign a rating to each Giant, based on the likelihood that it would lose to a generic Giant Killer. In evaluating the top 10 teams in the current AP poll, it finds a pretty large disparity in how safe each squad should feel during the tourney’s first weekend. Here’s a closer look, in decreasing order of vulnerability.

Saint Louis Billikens
AP Poll Rank: 10
Giant Rating: 71.3

As we addressed two weeks ago, St. Louis plays much more like a Killer than a Giant. And as the Billikens try to live up to a top-10 ranking and a potential No. 4 seed, that could prove problematic. Granted, Saint Louis should still beat a generic GK more than seven out of 10 times. But that’s not a strong enough rating to feel safe, especially given the issues our model identifies.

St. Louis doesn’t send many guys to the offensive glass, resulting in an offensive rebound rate of 29.1 percent. Historically, that’s been a key safeguard for Giants, and it makes sense: On a poor shooting night, you’re in much better shape if you can collect your own misses. Our model also sees Saint Louis as overrated: Its power ranking is just 29th in the nation, behind teams like Tennessee, Gonzaga and SMU. That’s due in large part to the Billikens’ sluggish offense, which ranks just 145th nationally (per KenPom.com) with an adjusted 106 points per 100 possessions. Even with the country’s second-best defense, those scoring woes are scary in a tourney setting.

Wichita State Shockers
AP Poll Rank: 2
Giant Rating: 72.7

Speaking of teams our model pegs as overrated, the sage-like spreadsheet has some issues with the Shockers. Sure, they’re undefeated, but our model accounts for the nation’s 130th-ranked schedule, and as a result is unwilling to bet heavily on Gregg Marshall’s crew. Wichita State takes a further knock from the model’s “Secret Sauce,” which accounts for similarities to historically safe Giants. The Shockers carry some warning labels, particularly their lack of emphasis on forcing turnovers (18.7 percent of opponents’ possessions).

Look, it’s hard to argue against a 30-0 team, regardless of its schedule. After all, the Shockers can beat only the teams they play. And it’s also difficult to argue that they aren’t cut out for tourney play when the likes of Cleanthony Early, Ron Baker and Fred VanVleet all played key roles on a Final Four squad. But by our measures, Wichita State has a disturbing number of traits in common with previously slain Giants, meaning a potential 1 vs. 8/9 matchup could be a real challenge to a crew that pulled off that kind of an upset last year.

Creighton Bluejays
AP Poll Rank: 9
Giant Rating: 72.9

The Bluejays have the nation’s best offense. They take a huge quantity of 3-pointers and make 42.9 percent of them. They’re a top-10 team inside the arc as well, shooting 55.4 percent on 2-pointers. They rarely turn the ball over and assist on 65.1 percent of their made baskets. That’s as good as it gets.

But the one thing Creighton doesn’t do well is a major issue for Giants: It grabs only 28 percent of available offensive rebounds. And the problems are much greater on defense, where the Bluejays force a turnover once every lunar cycle (15.6 percent, 325th in the nation) and generally struggle to get stops (an adjusted 100.5 points per 100 possessions). Unlike Saint Louis and Wichita State, Creighton is as good as its reputation suggests according to the model, which places the Bluejays fifth in its power rankings. But those two major flaws could cost Doug McDermott & Co. against a pesky Killer.

Villanova Wildcats
AP Poll Rank: 8
Giant Rating: 84.2

The Wildcats weren’t supposed to be this good. At 25-3, though, they’ve proved their worth to our model, which rates the Wildcats as the nation’s seventh-best team. But as with their Big East buddy Creighton, there are some lingering flaws that could make Villanova susceptible to an early upset.

It’s uncommon for a top team to foul a lot, for a fairly obvious reason: Generally, weaker teams foul more because they are outclassed. When you can’t match an opponent’s size, speed or skill, you’ve got to clutch and grab and hack in response. But Villanova doesn’t follow that script, allowing its foes to generate 22.8 percent of their points from the foul line, which is greater than the national average. The good news is that JayVaughn Pinkston and James Bell lead a rebounding effort that is above average at both ends, and Nova’s excellent ball pressure forces turnovers on 20.2 percent of opposing possessions. Something to watch that doesn’t show up as significant in the model, though: Villanova doesn’t guard the arc especially well. Opponents take 32.3 of their shots from deep, which is just 161st in the country, and that could be a problem against a hot-shooting mid-major.

Syracuse Orange
AP Poll Rank: 4
Giant Rating: 86.7

A week ago, the Orange were as safe a Giant as you’d find. But after their losses to Boston College and Duke and a tight win at Maryland, the model has further evaluated Syracuse and started to find some more glaring blemishes. Not surprisingly, the biggest issue is defensive rebounding, which is always a fatal flaw of the 2-3 zone. Rakeem Christmas, Jerami Grant and C.J. Fair do excellent work on the offensive boards, but without a clear man to block out, they struggle to produce at the other end. So opponents grab 32 percent of their own misses and can often kick out for open looks from 3-point range, where the Orange allow the second-highest percentage of points in the country (36.8). Syracuse still looks quite safe, but after the Orange dropped from a 97.8 rating to 86.7 that sentiment may not last much longer.

Florida Gators
AP Poll Rank: 1
Giant Rating: 89.8

There may not be a more balanced team than the top-ranked Gators. They’re the only team to rank in the top 12 in both offensive and defensive efficiency, and it’s tough to find any significant warts. So it’s no surprise that our model gives them a nine-in-10 chance of fending off a generic Giant Killer.

Led by the relentless Patric Young (13.5 percent offensive rebound rate) and Dorian Finney-Smith (14.0 percent), the Gators get all sorts of second chances on offense. They play D without fouling, they force bundles of turnovers and they hold their own on the defensive glass, too. The real question, then, is why the Gators aren’t the safest Giant in the country. And it appears our model’s answer is that they may not be as good as they appear, thanks to a relatively easy run through the watered-down SEC. Still, that’s not enough to cause real concern early in the tourney for a team that seems destined for a No. 1 seed.

Kansas Jayhawks
AP Poll Rank: 5
Giant Rating: 90.6

Yes, the Jayhawks have lost to four teams ranked 30th or worse in BPI. But that’s not a harbinger of a March disaster. Fact is, our model is bullish on the Jayhawks, ranking them as the fourth-best team in the country. And that rock-solid power rating is most of the basis for Kansas’ being such a safe Giant, since the team doesn’t gain much from the model’s Secret Sauce.

Why? The Jayhawks don’t force turnovers. Their 16.6 percent rate is well below the national average (18.4) and essentially means that weaker teams will still get enough looks at the basket to frighten Kansas on a hot-shooting night. The Jayhawks also foul far too often -- foes generate 24.3 percent of their offense from the free throw line. However, Kansas offsets much of those weaknesses with strong rebounding at both ends (not to mention a fantastically efficient offense). Could the Jayhawks go down early? It’s possible. But it sure isn’t likely.

Arizona Wildcats
AP Poll Rank: 3
Giant Rating: 94.2

One of the great surprises in the model is how safe Arizona looks, even in light of Brandon Ashley’s season-ending injury. Even without the versatile forward, the Wildcats do all the things a Giant is supposed to do, particularly on the glass, where they dominate at both the offensive (38.5 percent) and defensive (26.1 percent for opponents) ends.

And it’s not just that Arizona bears strong similarities to historically safe Giants. Our model also pegs the Wildcats as the best team in the country on the basis of their power rating, due largely to the nation’s stingiest defense. With Nick Johnson and T.J. McConnell locking down the perimeter and plenty of size inside, the Wildcats negate all the common tricks GKs employ. In particular, they chase foes off the 3-point line, allowing only 26.9 percent of opposing shots to come from beyond the arc. Arizona might not be the exact same team without Ashley, but it remains every bit the safe Giant.

Duke Blue Devils
AP Poll Rank: 6
Giant Rating: 95.0

It’s somewhat remarkable to see the Blue Devils ranked so high, given some fairly obvious issues that manifested themselves in losses at Notre Dame and Clemson and a near escape at home against Vermont. For a team that often utilizes at least four perimeter players at a time, Duke isn’t particularly effective at forcing turnovers (19.2 percent, 125th in the nation). And the Blue Devils are below-average defensive rebounders. Quietly, they’ve grown more and more effective on the offensive glass (33.5 percent), but that’s not close to the level of Arizona or Florida.

Instead, what makes Duke such a good Giant is the way it plays defense. The Blue Devils are ranked only 57th in adjusted efficiency, but their issues are much more likely to be exploited by a fellow Giant, not a Killer. They basically shut down their opponents’ 3-point shooting (17.5 percent of total points, 351st in the country), and avoid putting them on the line. So teams have to take advantage from 2-point range, which is where 60.9 percent of opposing points come from against Duke (third in the country). For GKs, the problem is that is the antithesis of the high-risk, high-reward style that typically leads to a tourney upset. Add in the model’s third-highest power rating, and Duke should be able to stick around for a while come tourney time.

Louisville Cardinals
AP Poll Rank: 7
Giant Rating: 97.7

This season’s safest Giant was also the last one standing a year ago. The Cardinals have quietly gone about their business in a new conference this season, compiling a daunting statistical profile in the process. Louisville boasts the nation’s 15th-best offense and seventh-best defense. The Cardinals take care of the ball when they have it (14.8 percent turnover rate) and take it away at the other end (24.7, fourth in the nation). They knock down 3s and keep opponents from launching them. With the second-best power rating according to the model, they’re a dream Giant.

If there is one lingering issue, it’s defensive rebounding, where Louisville is clearly not the same team without Gorgui Dieng and Chane Behanan. Teams grab an alarming 33.3 percent of their misses against Louisville, and the program knows what a massive offensive rebounding game can do for an upstart in the tourney. But the Cardinals have so many other weapons at their disposal that they’re much more likely to be playing on the tourney’s final weekend than to be eliminated in the first one.

Mar 03, 2014 09:27 AM #79

@drgnslayr Hey Drgn, go watch MoneyBall, again if you have seen it. It did wonders for my damaged psyche after that last game! :)

Mar 03, 2014 01:51 PM #80

@HighEliteMajor : I just looked up the record of the 2008 Jayhawks. They had 3 big twelve losses: at Texas, at Kansas State, and a very ugly one at Oklahoma State that had me screaming at the tv while I paced the floor throwing my arms around. After the loss at Oklahoma State, the team didn't lose another game. I would take that team over this one in a minute, because of many things, but especially because of the point guard.
Oh well, perhaps history will repeat itself.

Mar 03, 2014 03:04 PM #81

I've regained my sanity since my earlier rant.

It doesn't mean I don't have fears about this Jayhawk team. Their inconsistency factor will be around through April.

But there were some good signs from Saturday's game with OSU. Our first half defense did a good job in several areas that we aren't used to seeing from this young team. We are doing a better job of shifting off of ball screens, our defense looks like they are reacting quicker, etc. We held OSU to 25 points on their own court in a game they had to win. OSU also was building momentum from their two previous wins.

I've come down on Tharpe hard, so has HEM, because we simply can't win if he doesn't bring a certain level of play with him. It is only going to take one slip in the tourney and we are done. The OSU game is the warning shot of what is to come if he can't maintain solid play.

As fans, there really isn't anything we can do except watch.

I never expect us to win a National Championship. It is not realistic. Everything has to fall in place, including a bit of luck. But what I do expect is we'll go out every game and play hard as a team and we will come to a game ready to play. That means... players aren't playing video games 5 minutes before they come onto the court.

It is a good idea for players to consider the entire day leading up to the game, to be a part of the game itself. Really... the game starts the night before, by not staying out late and partying. Get a good night's rest and then get up and take care of yourself and prepare your mind with some positive visualizations... chat with players and coaches going over last bits of preparation. Stretching... warming up... executing a repetitious schedule of things that brings you to the game ready to play.

I lost my cool this weekend because for the first time with this team I have sensed behavior similar to other teams we have had that really laid an egg in March. The behavior is based around a complete meltdown of our point guard. That one position can take down any team.

I'm not mad at the 90th rated PG in the country. He's had a great year... just frustrated with his play on Saturday (and a few other games). And wondering if he is the best investment we can make when the rest of our positions are filled with NBA star talent.

I've always been a big Chiefs fan, too. And I related that in my rant. A lot of frustrations in me needed to vent from decades of watching Chiefs fail with the best team in football... best at every position but quarterback! Suddenly, I have melded my frustrations with KU PGs and past Chief quarterbacks! The bond is the fact that I care deeply for both teams.

Mar 03, 2014 03:32 PM #82

This is not news to anyone reading this, but I am not a basketball guru. I'm a die hard fan and I love all things KU, but I'm not an X's and O's kind of guy. I like to watch the round ball go through the hoop thingy when we have the ball and like to watch it get stolen or swatted away when "they" have the ball. That's the extent of my knowledge.

However. It seems to me that something needs to be done with the dynamics of our team. I know you folks won't hesitate to tell me how stupid this is, but is it just my imagination? When Conner is in the game, it seems to me as though we play better. Given the fact that Frank is fast, but sometimes out of control and that Naadir has his head up .....somewhere besides in the game most of the time, why not give Conner a shot at one of the guard positions? He's cool and collected, doesn't throw the ball away and might bring some stability to this team. With all the other scoring options on this team we don't have to have him in there to score points, although we all know he can light it up from beyond the arc. Why he hasn't this year is one of life's great mysteries. I can only chalk it up to not enough time on the court.

Mar 03, 2014 03:48 PM #83

@nuleafjhawk

I don't think it is realistic to start Conner over Naa... but what about using him sooner in games, especially if Tharpe comes out shaky?

When Naa is on his game, he gives us the best shot at winning. He's even won some games for us this year by knocking down points. And when he is on, his A/TO ratio is outstanding.

We just need a backup for Tharpe on those games like the OSU game. Then... Self shouldn't hesitate. He should pull Tharpe, and he should do it sooner... not late in the half or second half.

Mar 03, 2014 04:07 PM #84

@drgnslayr I agree that Tharpe can be a huge asset when his head is in the game and I guess I had in mind that when we have Mason and Tharpe in at the same time, maybe it should be Tharpe and Frankamp. Conner could handle the ball as Tharpe is a better shooter than Mason right now. I just can't figure out why Tharpe seems so distracted this season. The job is his, he's surrounded by great talent, he just can't seemed to stay focused.

Does he have a girlfriend? Dump her Naa !! Only date during the off season.....

Mar 03, 2014 04:24 PM #85

@nuleafjhawk

"I just can't figure out why Tharpe seems so distracted this season."

Several decades ago I was gambling on sports as my main source of income. A guy who was a real pro at it turned me on to a device that calculated players' biorhythms. He swore by it. I used it, too, and made a lot of money betting games. I stopped because it gave me ulcers and I thought I was going to stroke out!

Biorhythms are a strange phenomenon. They don't seem to have much of an impact on many people. The secret in sports gambling was to find the key players who did seem to be impacted by biorhythms. I'm wondering if Tharpe is one of those guys impacted by biorhythms.

If anyone else has experiences with biorhythms, please post it. It could have been a coincidence when I was "picking winners"... however it worked for me in those years of my life!

Here is a short, easy read on biorhythms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biorhythms ↗

I'm kind of with the critics on biorhythms when associating it with your birth date. But I am more the believer these cycles may occur and impact some people... but how do we find the cycles? Like I said above, I did use them, based on birth dates, and had remarkable luck on certain players.

Mar 03, 2014 04:39 PM #86

@nuleafjhawk Tharpe actually has a child (a situation that has been common to a number of Jayhawks, including Frank Mason). But you bring up a tremendous point -- we just never know. Girlfriend problems can dictate a lot. Could be a lot of things.

Mar 03, 2014 04:56 PM #87

@drgnslayr is that the same thing as PMS? Menopause?

Mar 03, 2014 05:24 PM #88

@drgnslayr Hey, biorhythms makes as much sense as anything else I can think of for him. Thanks for the info!

Mar 03, 2014 05:51 PM #89

@Crimsonorblue22

Ha... I don't think it is the same thing. But everyone has hormonal cycles, not just women.

I think my overall point is that all of us have cycles that we operate within. Some people may be impacted more than others from some kind of cyclical factor. I did have some success using biorhythms with my predictions on some athletes. What really came clear to me while studying 100s of athletes' biorhythms is that there does seem to be some level of predictability possible. Maybe it has its roots more in people hormonal cycles instead of a cyclical pattern going back to birth.

I am just throwing out there something that popped into my head from a long time ago. Something that might explain a bit of the inconsistencies with Tharpe.

@HighEliteMajor - forgot about that. Having a child is a more concrete possibility of a factor that could be impacting his play. That opens up a broad window of possibilities that could be happening totally separate from KU basketball.

None of us want to dump on Naa. We all support him and want him to be successful. HEM's words of calling Tharpe a wimp are not words to demean or harm Tharpe in any way. Call outs like that are used to push athletes to higher levels. I agree with HEM completely on his post here and I am behind it because I care about Tharpe... and I care about this team! If I didn't care, I wouldn't waste a moment's time on this site or writing about Tharpe.

We all need to push him to "man up" and stay focused! When someone hits you, you get back up with more fire than what you had before getting knocked down. We are all just fathering him with our comments.

Man up, Tharpe!

Mar 03, 2014 07:14 PM #90

@nuleafjhawk
I'm in the camp for more PT for Frankamp. He is steady. Doesn't make mistakes. Keegan gave him second-to-last ratings for the OSU game because his stat line for 5 min. was 0-0-0. Okay. That means he didn't turn the ball over!

He plays good D for a frosh. He can be a great shooter if we'd run some screens for him. And, there are four other guys on the floor that can score.

Mar 03, 2014 07:35 PM #91

@741hawk I'm guessing strength might be one factor, not at practice so don't know. In the ou game, he had 2, maybe 3 fouls in a couple of minutes. His man scored 6 pts. Conner fouled his man on a made 3 pt'er. Made the ft, then fouled again, his man made 2 ft's. Felt bad for him.

Mar 03, 2014 08:48 PM #92

Well, I'm in the camp of continuing to start Tharpe, but really actively trying to get Mason more minutes.

Mason provides some head scratchers, and is drives too many times when nothing is there. I'm not a CF fan, really, as anything more than an emergency minutes PG.

Not sure that any option right now provides anything but uncertainty.

Mar 03, 2014 08:52 PM #93

@HighEliteMajor I want the Tharpe from the OU game! Uncertainty is right!

Mar 03, 2014 08:54 PM #94

@drgnslayr I made a follow up post kind of rephrasing the "wimp" thing. I prefer not to name call. It seemed that it aptly described the way he projects himself on the court. I will be very interested in how he reacts at WVU.

He can still put us on his back, as others have noted.

Mar 03, 2014 08:55 PM #95

@Crimsonorblue22 Exactly. But that is the peak. I fear the valley.

Mar 03, 2014 09:01 PM #96

@HighEliteMajor - "Tharpe, the team’s stated leader, drops in on Gallagher-Iba with seven well-earned turnovers. Don’t believe the boxscore. It wasn’t six -- it was seven."

With all due respect - if you watch the game back it was actually six TIMES seven.....

Mar 03, 2014 10:12 PM #97

This is the stage of the season when I usually grumble to myself: okay, BIll Self once again has boxed himself into a corner, not having provided his bench players enough minutes to make a difference when things turn dicey with the starting lineup. But to be fair and judicious, this Jayhawk starting squad opened the season with SO MUCH inexperience that there has been little opportunity to work Frankamp, Greene, White, Lucas onto the floor. Outside of necessary subbing with BLack, Traylor and Mason, the other talented bench players have been exposed to slim opportunities to advance and prove their value, at least in game conditions. And Bill knows best what goes on behind closed practice doors, evaluating growth and talent from day to day. Tharpe's inconsistincies are a real puzzle, a junior who sometimes plays with aphasia. At this stage, not much to be done but to ride out the year with him, unless injury intervenes; hoping that he shows up for more really good performances than the opposite. I think that eventually Conner will become a more efficient and dependable point guard, but that is a tough position for a freshman athlete who did not arrive as a top 10 or 15 recruit. If he keeps his head right, perhaps opts for a red shirt next season, he just might develop into as dependable a player as Releford or Reed, even much sooner than they.

Mar 03, 2014 10:20 PM #98

@REHawk I have to say that I think Self has done a better job this season of giving guys roles. Self has used his bench much more this season, to the degree that I think multiple guys can contribute. White is the only guy I would guess would be rusty. I have confidence that Greene, Frankamp, and Lucas could play 15+ minutes if needed. I feel much different than, say, 2011.

And there, I did it again .. mentioned 2011. That can ruin one's day.

Mar 03, 2014 11:26 PM #99

@HighEliteMajor

Sorry.. but you aren't a name-calling kind of guy. Using the "wimp" term fit in the context of your post. I don't suspect any of us (including you) to start dissing players with names. We aren't going to start calling Naa a wimp. But it did fit your context and you've earned respect in here to where people know what you are getting at.

The role of labeling people in sports to help push them will always be around. We may have sterilized our culture to the point where we've all grown over-sensitive to things like this... thinking, for example, your label as abusive.

I'm glad I grew up in sports where coaches would call us "ladies" and "wimps" and other things to push us. It helped us. It wasn't abusive because we understood the overall context.

I totally respect Naa.... and I'm not going to give him the nickname of "wimp"... but I am on the list for thinking he played like a wimp on Saturday. Nothing fits better. It isn't the same thing to say he played "apprehensive basketball."

HEM... someday when you are coaching my kid and he plays like a wimp... call him a "wimp!"

Mar 03, 2014 11:32 PM #100

@REHawk

I've stated some criticism I have about Self... but in the big picture... I think he has done one of his best jobs ever this year! Maybe his best!

All of us have over-the-top expectations... and he does a good job of at least giving us a chance to reach those crazy heights.

You can see in his face that he carries the same frustrations all of us carry, too.

To be honest, I am surprised we are even in the conversation for winning another NC.

Mar 04, 2014 04:39 AM #101

Self is just insanely good at stealing wins and moving the pieces just far enough from game to game to get another W.

As Self keeps reminding people, this bunch of defensively challenged green wood that cannot protect on offense if another team even looks crossly at them, has a three game lead with two games to go.

It is an unbelievable accomplishment considering he had to play with Embiid and Black at half to three quarters speeds for over a month of the heart of the conference season, and without Embiid entirely for a week or so. I can bitch and moan all I want about how he shouldn't have brought Embiid back until about now, but the point is, he bought his team time to get a three game lead with two to go and the conference title, and the best chance they could have had to get a 1, or 2, seed despite the adversity.

He did this all by the way with the next Lebron playing rather like the next Xavier, not the next Lebron.

He did this with a point guard, Naadir Tharpe, that might have difficulty guardiing some of us!

And he did this with Naadir Tharpe, who's main strength going into the season was though to be his ball handling, which just turned out to be one of his greatest weaknesses. Lost in all the talk about Tharpe's defense and TOs is that he has turned out not to be a particularly exceptional ball handler unless the other team just leaves him entirely alone.

Oh, and his 5-star 4 that was supposed to be able to become a dominant player this season and a scoring machine, has except against weak competition, turned increasingly into a glue 4 that gets 2-4 ppg and 2-4 rpg. I mean, THINK ABOUT THAT!!!!

And did I mention that his great trey shooting perimeter guys--Greene, Frankamp and White--turned out not to be able to shoot much.

When you stop and think about it, Self only had three guys perform at, or above expectations this season.

Wayne Selden, who some thought might be an OAD, turned out to be a guy that has some good games and some bad games, got injured for a stretch, but generally turned out to be a solid glue 2 most of the time.

Frank Mason, they guy that almost went to Towson, and then gave everybody goose bumps with his after burners for two games early, then settled into a guy that came in an penetrated and couldn't finish at the rim, couldn't shoot the trey much, and really contributed the most when he tried to just glue.

Self's only really wonderful surprise was Joel Embiid. Embiid was thought to be a project that would be a back up most of the year and not come into his own until next season. Embiid learned faster than anyone dreamed and became Self's savior, only Embiid got a knee and a back injury that then greatly reduced his effectiveness for the last month of the season!

Hey, I almost forgot to mention Tarik Black, the guy Self and Coach K competed hard to sign. Tarik Black spent most of the season trying to stay on the court maybe four minutes.

Now step back and look at the descriptions of what actually happened with each of the guys on the team versus what the expectations were for each of the guys on this team. Get that chasm between expectation and outcome clear in your head. Now, put yourself back at the start of the season and pretend I told you then what these player would actually do, instead of their expectations. What would you have predicted would be the record of a team where:

the point guard couldn't protect or defend.

The 5 star 2 guard became a glue player.

The next Lebron at 3 became the next Xavier.

The 5-star 4 averaged 2 points and 2 rebounds in big time games in February and basically disappeared all season long against good competition.

The big 260 pound center often played fewer than 5-10 mpg.

The trey shooters couldn't make treys.

The Jam Tray played consistently in reserve, but never had a break out game.

Would you have said this team was certain to clinched the tenth title with a three game lead with two games to go?

Hell, I would have predicted the team to be in third or fourth place!!!!!

Self is a genius.

Mar 04, 2014 04:53 AM #102

I think he has done one of his best jobs ever this year! Maybe his best!

@drgnslayr I tend to agree. This was not an easy team to line up against the #1 SOS in the country. Add to that the unknowns replacing the starting 5 from last year, 80% plus of all scoring and minutes.. 5 freshmen, a transfer and new assistants.. And he still won the B12 regular season crown.

Despite the pressure of the #1 recruit or the pressure of 10 titles in a row.. he just did it.

Impressive.

Mar 04, 2014 04:40 PM #103

I have really enjoyed reading all these posts. Yeah, I concur 100% that Bill Self has done a marvelous job with this young and inexperienced crew. No freak one time accomplishment. He does it year after year, plugging the right recruits into his system, plugging the right players into game situations, securing wins that the majority of coaches would not. I shudder at the thought that someday he might depart. Is now more than somewhat reassuring that he feels comfortable sitting on the throne, declaring that there will be no need to move on until fans grow tired of his "rhetoric!" The Guy is a genius at the mic, too. After good ol' Roy beat his tired retreat to alma mater North Carolina, who would have thunk that Jayhawk hoops would have vaulted so quickly and steadily into the hands of such masterful coaching? There just might come a season when all of us will have to cut Bill Self a bit of slack.