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Moore
Apr 06, 2018 02:56 PM #1

I am not sure that most of you have checked out Moore's highlights or full games? If there is one guy on next years team to get pumped about its Moore. I have watched some videos on youtube and WOW! He is really good in transition. He blows past defenders and drives to the rim fearlessly. He makes big shots through contact. He utilizes ball screens very well. He utilizes angels similar to Ellis to make shots. Some of you need to go check out his Cal tape again. I have been told that he is a small 2 guard by some folks but that is just not true! He is the real deal and from what I see will be a KU favorite once yall see him in action. Do your self a favor and go check him out! Its worth the watch.

Apr 06, 2018 03:14 PM #2

This is a strange hill that you've picked to die on.

Some folks being Bill Self? Self said he isn't really a PG yet.

Apr 06, 2018 03:27 PM #3

@BShark Bill Self would have said Simmons was not a point guard too. He would have played him as a stretch 4 because that is what he does. He also said our team was soft. He says things to motivate players and as Malik Newman said "he knows the right buttons to push". If you go watch film you would see that he is indeed a PG.

Apr 06, 2018 03:28 PM #4

@Statmachine I've watched Moore extensively and think he isn't much better than Naadir Tharpe.

Apr 06, 2018 03:29 PM #5

NaadirTharpe still started at KU as a PG for a season right?

Apr 06, 2018 03:29 PM #6

Tharpe was TERRIBLE. The worst starting PG I can ever remember for KU. I would have played Mason as a FR over him.

Apr 06, 2018 03:34 PM #7

Moore had two games in Italy with little ball distribution, then two games with decent assists -- 6 assists in 17 minutes, and 6 assists in 16 minutes. He only averaged 3.5 assists per game -- which is about what he did in Italy (3.7).

To moderate this, aren't we just asking him to be a decent guy off the bench?

The worst part about Tharpe was that he was a rain-cloud pouter who provided negative leadership. A guy we took after we (thankfully) missed on Josiah Turner. Even as bad as he was, it still ended up better than Turner.

Apr 06, 2018 03:36 PM #8

And that is perfectly fine BUT he can work with our FR PG when coach Self is unavailable. Show our new PG the playbook, show him where everyone on the court needs to be, how Self wants things done. He will be great for the program and a suitable substitute for our starting PG or even start if need be?

Apr 06, 2018 03:36 PM #9

HighEliteMajor said:

Moore had two games in Italy with little ball distribution, then two games with decent assists -- 6 assists in 17 minutes, and 6 assists in 16 minutes. He only averaged 3.5 assists per game -- which is about what he did in Italy (3.7).

To moderate this, aren't we just asking him to be a decent guy off the bench?

I think he can be a decent player off the bench. I think that's his role. Dotson starts.

Apr 06, 2018 03:36 PM #10

Statmachine said:

And that is perfectly fine BUT he can work with our FR PG when coach Self is unavailable. Show our new PG the playbook, show him where everyone on the court needs to be, how Self wants things done. He will be great for the program and a suitable substitute for our starting PG or even start if need be?

This is a fine take, the first post made it seem like you thought he was going to be first team AA or something.

Apr 06, 2018 04:31 PM #11

When I saw him play as a senior in Chicago, I knew nothing of his reputation, but just my eye test, I was like wow, this kid stands out on the floor.

Apr 06, 2018 09:36 PM #12

I got to see Charlie in a camp for a couple of days last summer. He is an anti-tharpe personality wise and hung out with the team when they had free time and was eager to help the kids. That seems trivial I know but each year I keep an eye on how the guys get along and how they participate in the camp. Last year Billy was standoffish and spent more time on his phone then anything else for example. Not that I took that as an indicator of future problems, more that it showed a lack of interest in bonding with his teammates something I rarely see so it stood out.

I can't get a true judgment of skills of course but Moore's ball handling sharp and very fast and he looks pretty nimble laterally. I agree with the previous poster that HCBS calling Charlie not a point guard right now was probably more motivational than accurate. He's quick enough I am looking forward to seeing how he buys into and plays D which we all know is the ticket to playing time with Self.

Apr 06, 2018 09:43 PM #13

Self wants his PG's to control pace and get teammates involved. Moore is a score first guy that primarily plays up tempo. That's not really a match for the type of guy Self generally has at the point.

Apr 06, 2018 10:08 PM #14

@Kubie Yeah I've heard nothing to indicate Moore is a bad kid. Definitely didn't compare him to Tharpe in that way. His D was really bad at Cal, but of course Self will want him to try and defend. His size might be an issue there.

@justanotherfan Exactly. I've been harping on that lately though saying chucker instead of score first. Score first is probably more polite heh.

Apr 07, 2018 12:28 AM #15

I think Moore is a great piece for the team. He is a high end backup PG that I hope never starts. But at the very least he is capable enough to push the younger more talented PGs we have coming in. He is good enough that Self can use him to prove a point if the younger guys aren’t doing what he asks. I actually think he is a perfect fit in a backup role. I expect him to grad transfer when the time comes, but I am happy he is on the team. I expect him to be very important to our early season success, while slowly taking a lesser role as the season goes on.

Apr 07, 2018 09:32 PM #16

Is Moore the next Mason? Next Devonté? (For those that have seen enough tape of Moore), I don’t think I’ve seen enough to judge yet.

Apr 07, 2018 09:35 PM #17

@Ralster No. His AST/TO ratio in his FR year was not comparable to any season of Frank or Devonte. Also his game is different from them. He takes a lot of shots and isn't as athletic as Frank.

Apr 07, 2018 09:54 PM #18

@Ralster

Yeah... I don't want to judge him yet either. And we never know what a player will do once given PT. He might just end up being a find like Frank and Devonte!

Apr 07, 2018 11:20 PM #19

@BShark true in the past he has been a shoot first guy. What we, or at least I, don’t know is if that was the expectation and he did what he was asked. If that is the case perhaps if asked to be a pass first guard he will once more do what is asked of him.

Too soon to tell and mostly I hope he does the job well enough we don’t end up with a 40 minute a game point guard again.

Apr 07, 2018 11:25 PM #20

@Kubie good pt!

Apr 08, 2018 02:47 AM #21

So he's basically a poor man's Trae Young is what I'm gathering?

Apr 08, 2018 02:49 AM #22

chriz said:

So he's basically a poor man's Trae Young is what I'm gathering?

Go down a notch to homeless man's Trae Young and I don't think that's too far off.

Apr 08, 2018 02:50 AM #23

@Kubie Self has had him for a year compared to his entire basketball life beforehand. I'll be very interested to see if Self has tried to change his game though.

Apr 08, 2018 03:52 AM #24

Moore came with some hype from USC(?). I thought many had Moore pegged as the next pg after DG. It seems most on this board simply sees him as a solid backup pg to Dotson. We shall see exactly how quickly Dotson picks up the most important role in a fairly complex offense. I could see Moore buying Dotson some time to learn Self's system. We all know Self will baptize Dotson with fire during the pre-season. Dotson seems to fit Self's pg mold and Moore will simply be ready to supplement Dotson.

I will be curious to see where Dotson is as a pg when the first conference game rolls around. But, Self will rely on Grimes and Langford(?) to take some of the ball handling from Dotson. Let's hope Dotson comes in and learns immediately, and becomes a key piece to the offense. We will also see much more inside play too with our 4 and 5 too than last year. Doke saw a lot, but not nearly enough. The 4 is going to be another key to the offense. I hope Silvio and KandDLawson will be a huge threat at the 4. Our 4 was a non-factor or even present. This last year it was 1,2,3, and 5. We had 5 players but we had no 4 presence at all.

Apr 08, 2018 04:13 AM #25

The game has changed.

There are no short treys in the Carney against the Nike-EST teams anymore.

No more running and jumping like young men flying off trampolines to score amazing dunks and banks. The days of Dr. J have gone to the same ash heap as the 2-hand set shot and the mid range J.

Using athleticism to create short treys and impact plays is the old way to play.

Athleticism is now about adding range to 40% accuracy beyond the semicircle.

Conference titles after 14 don’t matter anymore. The record is broken. Now it’s about playing for rings in a Carney of apparent asymmetries.

You can go as far as a two seed, as you can as a 1 seed, if you are loaded with trey guns and 2 bigs that can drain treys too.

But no rings for driving, pirouetting, leaping athleticism.

Athleticism without a trey is like a day without sunshine.

Is Moore a 40% 3pt shooter with up to 28 feet range?

Can he place the pass to the hands at the optimal position to go up for three?

No more lobbing jams either. Too low of a percentage.

Only passes to wide open dunks.

And to wide open treys.

Apr 08, 2018 04:16 AM #26

Balance between treys and twos?

We don’t need no stinking balance.

Apr 08, 2018 04:19 AM #27

North Carolina literally won the title last year with a very average three point shooting team.

Apr 08, 2018 02:37 PM #28

@BShark Ya, I was proud to actually see a Roy team actually win a grinder with rebounding, toughness, and D, and this despite Justin Jackson literally almost shooting his own team outta the gym. He jacked up some of the worst looking 3atts Ive ever seen. Yet UNC won despite him (NC game, but JJ certainly helped them get there). It didn’t even get a Roy-coat-unfurl/toss...

Apr 08, 2018 03:15 PM #29

@BShark That was two years ago, ‘Nova won last year. This year it’s the Hawks to lose! Game on! ...damn it’s going to be a long off season.

Apr 08, 2018 03:43 PM #30

I might add from my earlier post that Garrett isn't too bad either. I think he will make a huge improvement into next year. Garrett handled the ball and his first year should provide some momentum for next season. Look for Garrett to become a taller and maybe more versatile Aaron Miles in the upcoming season. Garrett is such a quiet, fundamental, and steady contributor for this team.

Also, a correction to my earlier post. I realized he transferred from Cal not USC... :confused:

I also went back to review his time at Cal. He's a little like DG.

Apr 08, 2018 03:49 PM #31

Why Garrett played over Cunliffe is like a litmus test for understanding basketball.

Apr 08, 2018 04:00 PM #32

DMac is a freakin' man-child...CRAP, he's gonna be a beast. If we keep Doke for 1 more yr, we will have the most dominate inside presence of CBB.

The one thing that jumps out to me is his short game. He's not bad 6-7 feet from the rim. He's got a nice touch away from the rim.

Apr 08, 2018 04:07 PM #33

Moore's game seems more Frank M than Devonte G. Finishes well at the rim with either hand, using his body to create or get into space. His game also seems more drive to shoot than drive to pass. That was early FM too. What he seems to do better maybe than either of them is to hit the runner. Of course, feel like we just watched his every scoring play from the year. Any other types of highlights? No assists?

Apr 08, 2018 04:08 PM #34

Ochai reminds me of KLangford. I still think, no disrespect to OA at all, but a redshirt would allow him to adjust and come in his second season as maybe one of the most dominate players in bball. I think a redshirt would make him even better and more hungry. We just don't quite need him. I just don't see him sniffing the court if we get RLangford. Again, NOTHING against OA at ALL. Either way he'll be good, but let's face it, most of these recruits are playing against average to slightly below average competition accept on the AAU circuit.

Notice in the dunk drill at the line? He has to take a power dribble. To me, this is a bad habit that many college players create and it carries over into games. He has to grab, pivot, two step, and jam. The ball will be slapped out of his hand or poked everytime in the lane if he tries that in at the D1 level. I get it, it's a drill, but it creates mental habits that will likely translate into games. He's good, and will be a great player at the next level. I'd like to see him consider a RS, no real reason, KU will be stacked if we land Langford.

See the inbound play to OA? Much like a Self play...haha

Love the kid in the KU sweatshirt too.

Apr 08, 2018 04:12 PM #35

@truehawk93 I think I was more impressed with QG passing highlights than Devon's

Apr 08, 2018 04:14 PM #36

Bwag said:

@truehawk93 I think I was more impressed with QG passing highlights than Devon's

Most definitely...QG is a 6-4,5 pg. He's a humble Kobe Bryant caliber player....shhhh...don't tell him that, but something tells me he can handle the comparison.

Apr 08, 2018 04:22 PM #37

One request for all these ELITE players...would someone please teach these kids to use the right hands and legs on a layup. This is one of the most glaring deficiencies of many of these top players. I learned and it was tough for the longest time, because it's not dominate or natural. But it's the right thing.

Use the Left hand, and right foot for a LEFT hand lay-up.

Use the Right hand, and Left foot for a Right hand lay-up.

I know...it's tough and awkward, but much like a switch hitter or a South paw to use the Right hand...I remember learning as a RH pitcher, to turn toward 1st base for a 2nd base pick. It was AWKWARD, but once I learned and not step off with my right foot, and turn toward the runner or bag, my pick off ratio improved, and it looked better watching by my coaches. Remember Rocky? But when they learn and it becomes part of their game, it looks better watching, and it adds to their game. Again, if it's not broke, don't fix it...but just sayin.'

Apr 08, 2018 05:17 PM #38

@truehawk93

Here is the thing. You are correct on the proper form of a layup, HOWEVER.....

Once you play at an elite level you MUST learn to go off the wrong foot and mix up your timing or you will always get your shot blocked. These kids are playing against the best at a younger age so they are learning this also at a younger age.
Also going off the "improper" leg makes it easier to jump into your defender and create contact and go shoulder to chest on a shot blocker.

If you only make layups with the "proper" legs you will be easier to guard.

Apr 08, 2018 06:49 PM #39

BigBad said:

@truehawk93

Here is the thing. You are correct on the proper form of a layup, HOWEVER.....

Once you play at an elite level you MUST learn to go off the wrong foot and mix up your timing or you will always get your shot blocked. These kids are playing against the best at a younger age so they are learning this also at a younger age.
Also going off the "improper" leg makes it easier to jump into your defender and create contact and go shoulder to chest on a shot blocker.

If you only make layups with the "proper" legs you will be easier to guard.

BUT...if the defender is on my right side and I'm right handed? I use my right hand from the left side of defender, jumping off my right foot? Doesn't that allow the defender to defend the ball better?

Whereas, if I use my LEFT hand, RIGHT leg/foot...ball away from the defender, who is on my right side/weak side, then use my body...I have a much better chance of an AND 1? IF I use your logic and jump right foot/leg, and use my right hand...the defender on my right side will eat the ball, not my body.

Same principle with Right hand, Left foot/leg when the defender is on my Left side...

Unless of course you're being facetious?

Apr 08, 2018 06:54 PM #40

@Ralster

NO...Moore seems score first, pass second. Unless he has learned with DG to pass then score. He better if he expects to thrive at pg and in Self's system. Dotson seems to be pass then score.

It's gonna be FUN watching all the same.

Apr 08, 2018 07:01 PM #41

I was just thinking about an interesting player comparison. I realized the interesting styles between...

Keith Langford

Travis Releford

Wayne Selden

Ochai Agbagi

Pretty interesting when you watch the four. I don't think OA hasn't quite developed the outside shot that Selden and KL had, but their very interesting. I think Selden and Ochai have more power and strength. Releford and KL are similar. Just an interesting observation.

Although after watching the OA clip, he does have a nice stroke. Actually, the kid has some hops...dang...wonder what his vertical is?

Apr 08, 2018 07:15 PM #42

@truehawk93

The basics are important to be sure, but @BigBad makes a great point about changing things up.

On top of that, you also have to go back to your strong hand when dealing with great shot blockers. I remember when I started playing against better shot blockers in HS and moving into college that I basically stopped shooting layups with my left hand unless it was a breakaway. Good shot blockers could reject a lefty layup with ease, but if I kept the ball in my strong hand, I could change my shot (floater, scoop, finger roll, double clutch, whatever) and still get a good attempt off, rather than an awkward half hearted flip at the basket with my off hand.

With as quick as a lot of the shotblockers now close space and get off the floor, you have to do whatever you can to disrupt their timing. Lots of kids now are learning the Eurostep, which is one way to do that, but they are also now teaching kids to keep the ball in their strong hand to finish the Eurostep off.

Additionally, at the higher levels, you always teach kids to finish by dunking when they can. As a result, you have to get them to keep the ball in their strong hand. If they are always switching to their off hand, they won't dunk, which, for guys with an NBA future, is a bad habit to get into because NBA guys will block those layups all the time.

As a result, for a lot of kids, they don't shoot layups with the "correct" hand once they start dunking because the teaching is to keep the ball in your strong hand to give you a chance to dunk whenever possible.

Apr 08, 2018 08:05 PM #43

Bwag said:

No assists?

Yeah, that's the rub.

3.5 ast and 2.9 t/os in 29 mpg running the point at Cal.

Apr 08, 2018 08:07 PM #44

truehawk93 said:

Bwag said:

@truehawk93 I think I was more impressed with QG passing highlights than Devon's

Most definitely...QG is a 6-4,5 pg. He's a humble Kobe Bryant caliber player....shhhh...don't tell him that, but something tells me he can handle the comparison.

Grimes has a fantastic feel for the game.

Apr 08, 2018 08:08 PM #45

@truehawk93 I expect Ochai to be a better shooter than KFreeze or Releford. Not that such a feat would be that difficult.

Apr 08, 2018 08:54 PM #46

Agbaji is a better shooter as a HS senior than any of the guys that you listed, @truehawk93

Now, Releford and Selden both developed quite a bit as three point shooters while at KU, so it will remain to be seen if Agbaji has enough growth in his game to develop like that over a four year period.

Langford never did develop much of a three point stroke. Never shot even 36% while at KU. I would imagine Agbaji would surpass that as a freshman given the mechanics I have seen on video from him. If I were a coach at KU, I would hope that Garrett develops to be a Langford level shooter, while I would hope that Agbaji develops to the point that Selden did (right around 40% from three by the time he is a junior). I think Agbaji's development curve could make him a high level starter as a three or four year player. He has really impressed me with his development. Just looking back at what he was as a junior until now is an incredible thing to watch.

Apr 08, 2018 09:43 PM #47

@justanotherfan

Dunking is different than a layup. An athletic blocker will pin your layup almost 100% of the time. A fast break dunk is not a layup. A fast break dunk or flush is much more efficient and almost impossible to block.

Apr 08, 2018 10:43 PM #48

@truehawk93 Agbagi has interesting driving skills - he uses his body perfectly going to the hoop. That's very impressive to me. It took Devonte 4 years to learn to use his shoulder to create space, and this kid does it every time he drives. He is officially on my future Jayhawk pick to click list. He might not even smell more than 2 minutes, or he might red shirt, but once this kid starts getting minutes in future years, I think he ends up making a very good impact on our program.

May 29, 2018 08:38 PM #49

https://247sports.com/college/kansas/Article/It-factor-How-KU-basketballs-Charlie-Moore-attacked-his-redshirt-season-with-the-Jayhawks-118596872 ↗

May 31, 2018 12:51 AM #50

GOD how I wish the season were starting sooner... all this back and forth has me drooling with a bad case of basketball jones

May 31, 2018 03:12 AM #51

@Bosthawk

Just about 4 months to late night...

Jun 12, 2018 06:58 PM #52

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article212956274.html ↗

Jun 12, 2018 07:49 PM #53

I haven't even watched the feeds, but from the beginning my hunch has been Self sees a guy in Moore with the potential to play like the guy Larry Brown sent us for the World University Games. I doubt he is there yet after his time at Cal, but I think that is the kind of player Self hopes to develop Moore into.

Frank was shooting guard going to Towson State when he took him and saw the inner point guard that did not really bear PG fruit till his junior season. Frank was a most athlete with a great shooting eye and an afterburner like nobody's business. But his ball handling skills and shoot/pass judgements were suspect his first two seasons.

Devonte was a born point guard that was kind of slight and gentle. It took him a season and a half for Self to let the inner lion out from the shooting guard position; then after a full season of roaring his junior year, and running the point to rest Frank at times, the born PG and the inner lion converged his senior season at the point.

Self has done the stuff too many times with too many successes to be pessimistic about Moore and his lack of a fifth star.

The key thing to remember is that Frank and Devonte REALLY benefitted from just one summer of playing with that terrific little fire plug of Larry's down at SMU. Now, that guy was a point guard from the Dean, Brown, Self breed of point guards!!!!!

I suspect Moore is going to adapt pretty well to what Self wants out of him at the point.

But outside shooters are born and refined, not made.

So: the big question is this: is there room in the game these days for a point guard that cannot pot the triceratop at 40%, or higher?

By this I do NOT mean can the guy start and lead KU to a lot of wins and conference title. Put enough bigs and 5-star wings, so that all he has to do is distribute, push and guard, and no PG needs to be a Frank, or Devonte, from down town.

But to go to the Final Four and have a prayer of winning with all of these long and strongs at the 3, 4 and 5, sooner, or later, the team has to beat a 3-point offense like KU had last season, or a three point offense on steroids, like Nova had last season. The encounter usually comes from the Elite Eight on. And for those kinds of teams, your point guard is a serious weakness, if he cannot pot the triceratop. There are just too many possessions when a fine opposing team's momentum has to be dagger with a trey, or possessions down the stretch, where a gap has to be closed with a trey, or a trey has to be answered with a trey, and "running the stuff" won't get a three point look quickly enough.

But worst of all, EVERY coach in America is going to be trying to emulate Jay Wright's zone, not just his volume trey shooting. And that zoning is going to be absolutely destabilizing to any team with a point guard that can't drain the trey >40%.

Why?

Because it is so easy with a match up zone to turn things into a 5 on 4 game, when all a point guard can do is pass, or drive.

First, no-one cares if a CST point guard wearing adidas treads can drive into the seams of a zone in the EST Carney, because he is going to get the hell fouled out of him and never get a call.

Second, a PG that can't pot the triceratop is a guy that a match up zone can ignore and stretch to help on someone that can.

It is hard to believe how fortunate KU has been to have two consecutive > 40% PGs. It is just the best of all possible worlds for the Small Ball Era.

To conclude, I am not really even a little worried about Moore being a fine point guard able to run the stuff Self's way.

What I'm concerned about is whether he can be a serious threat from the trey stripe, when there isn't any other way to manage games than to take and make treys?

Jun 12, 2018 08:04 PM #54

Frank's SO and JR numbers were very similar, almost identical.

Nice officiating conspiracy thrown in for good measure.

Jun 13, 2018 06:06 AM #55

BShark said:

Frank's SO and JR numbers were very similar, almost identical.

Nice officiating conspiracy thrown in for good measure.


Howling!

Let me play the straight man.

Question: Why EXACTLY might it PROVE SOMETHING, if they were similar, or identical? Frank was a vastly better player the second half of his junior year than he was any time during his sophomore year. Do you not understand that Frank's role change drastically from sophomore to junior year, and quite a bit from junior to senior season, too. Don't you think the changing rosters had an impact on Frank's numbers and on the roles Frank was assigned by Self? If not, why not?

Next....

THERE. APPEAR. NO. CONSPIRACIES. IN. D1. IMHO.

NONE. HAVE. BEEN. PROVEN. THAT. I. CAN. RECALL.

YOU, @BSHARK, APPEAR POSSIBLY ADDICTED TO IMPUTING CONSPIRACY TO THINGS :-)

I TRY UNSUCCESSFULLY TO HELP YOU GET THIS CONSPIRACY IMPUTATION MONKEY REGARDING ME OFF YOUR BACK.

CONSPIRACIES ARE APPARENTLY FOR SUCKERS.

AND MISCHARACTERIZATIONS OF OTHERS WITH "CONSPIRACY" AND "CONSPIRACY THEORY" APPEAR TO HAVE LOST THEIR SMEAR POWER.

ONE NOW HAS TO CALL SOMEONE A "TRUMPER", OR A "COLLUDER WITH PUTIN AND RUSSIA," OR MY NEW FAVORITE--"AN APPEASER OF NORTH KOREA."

OF COURSE, I'M NONE OF THOSE, AND I DON'T BELIEVE IN CONSPIRACIES AND CONSPIRACY THEORIES ABOUT CONSPIRACIES IN D1 EITHER.

CONSPIRACIES IN D1 ARE APPARENTLY FOR SUCKERS..

ROCK CHALK!

Jun 13, 2018 12:04 PM #56

@jaybate-1.0 33% from 3 is virtually the same as 50% from the 2. 40% from 3 calculates out to 60% from 2. We had to shoot 40 north last year because we couldn't get a rebound to save our lives. If Charlie shoots 35% from 3, we're in the Final Four. I love Charlie- his game gives every rec league wanna be hope. Talk about utilizing what you have...Charlie is just nosing for the basket every time. The backboard angles he uses show his gym rat bonafides, and the guy is simply nails in open space. I think the kid is special, and if we need for him to make 40%, he'll manage.

I don't think we'll see Dedric at the 3. Now KJ Lawson at the 3 is a possibility.

Jun 13, 2018 03:19 PM #57

Charlie understands spacing and timing on his drive finishes. That's a tough thing to teach players. His freshman year highlights from Cal show how he finishes in a crowd in the Pac 12.

I have high hopes for Charlie! He is bound to get some decent PT because of his experience alone.

Jun 13, 2018 04:08 PM #58

@KUSTEVE jethros back

Jun 13, 2018 04:27 PM #59

KUSTEVE said:

@jaybate-1.0 33% from 3 is virtually the same as 50% from the 2. 40% from 3 calculates out to 60% from 2. We had to shoot 40 north last year because we couldn't get a rebound to save our lives. If Charlie shoots 35% from 3, we're in the Final Four. I love Charlie- his game gives every rec league wanna be hope. Talk about utilizing what you have...Charlie is just nosing for the basket every time. The backboard angles he uses show his gym rat bonafides, and the guy is simply nails in open space. I think the kid is special, and if we need for him to make 40%, he'll manage.

I don't think we'll see Dedric at the 3. Now KJ Lawson at the 3 is a possibility.

Welcome back old compatriot. Solid points here. Regardless of who wins the starting PG spot, Moore and Dotson will both help the team.

Jun 13, 2018 07:45 PM #60

@drgnslayr The one legged mid range jumper is one of my favorites. The way he drives to the basket, and spins the ball two inches from the end of the backboard, and uses english to coax the ball in the net are rec league favorites. Those are shots I used to attempt...and he nails them! It might not always be very athletic, or very pretty, but the kid is a battler and he knows how to get the ball in the hoop.

Jun 13, 2018 07:50 PM #61

@BShark I think Dotson will own the paint. The drives to the basket will be walks in the park, with two behemoths setting screens down low.

Jun 13, 2018 07:52 PM #62

@KUSTEVE grimes is doing a pretty good job of that.

Jun 13, 2018 08:06 PM #63

Grimes, Dotson, Moore and Garrett are all good at driving. Teams are definitely going to pitch a tent in the paint.

Jun 13, 2018 08:11 PM #64

@KUSTEVE and @drgnslayr

The "more" you guys talk about "Moore," the more I see him being Self's version of the SMU guard that lead us to victory in the World University Games a few summers back.

@KUSTEVE

I see a structural strategic problem with tolerating 35-38% perimeter shooters and thinking that one does not need to keep shooting a lot of treys, because we have six bigs, and can get more 50-60% stick backs. Its rooted in 3 > 2.

Leaving aside that most teams probably will NOT be able to emulate Nova; i.e., not be able to be apparently stacked with 6 > 39% trifectates via metaphorically unmarked dump trucks apparently dumping apparently mischaracterized 75-100 rank players late at night in the Palestra parking lot good enough to blow out teams loaded with 1-75 ranked players and 2-3 >39% trifectates, what Jay Wrong demonstrated last season is that there is always some number of 3ptas by one team greater than the number of 3ptas taken by another team that yields a winning edge, if the three point shooting team taking more 3ptas is shooting even reasonably well. This is CRUCIAL to keep in mind as we move forward in college basktetball.

You don't have to have six > 39% trey ballers to take 10 more 3ptas than the opponent. You can do it with 2, or 3, or 4 trifectates. But your shooting volatility (variance due to particular shooters being on, or off, for a game) apparently rises as the number of 3pt shooters declines. The more trifectates you have, the more likely you are to find at least two trifectates in any given game able to shooting at the 40% mark, or higher. So: the more trifectates you have in the rotation, the less volatility risk you face in playing the 3pt-first way. Jay Wrong showed that six, including two trifectates at post, lowered the volatility so low that Nova could steamroller its way through a six game tournament with ease, if he were just willing to keep shooting more 3ptas than an opponent, regardless of how many 3ptas the opponent took.

Self's strategy of trying not to shoot more than 25-30 3ptas, rooted in his deep, quasi metaphysical faith "balance," became his own self made prison last season against Nova.

Moving forward, we can reasonably hope that Self, who has broken through all his previous metaphysical blinders in the past, when harsh losses knocked them from his head, will be dialing up the treys to 10 more than his opponents, whenever he plays a good three point shooting team.

Speaking conceptually, at least, there is always some number more 3ptas you can take to offset either a hot trey shooting opponent, or a volume shooting trey opponent. Again, conceptually, one should even be able to offset some increment of deficiency in 3pt accuracy of your own team by taking more treys than an opponent that shoots them more accurately than you do.

For example, much as this runs counter to certain board rats beliefs, KU would likely easily have overcome Nova's hot hand in the tournament, if Self had just dialed up the 3ptas to +10, or +20, above what Nova in fact took, IF, that is, Jay would have let him.

Every attempted short trey by adidas-CST KU was futile against NIKE-EST Nova. There were not going to be hardly any short treys called, so every time KU took what was given by Nova's defense, KU was being the 2 in the 3 > 2 equation. And Jay took advantage every chance he got by answering a KU 2 with a Nova 3.

3 > 2 is essentially the new E=mc^2 of D1.

Note: its actually not new either. From the moment the trey was instituted, a few coaches, like Paul Westhead, of Loyola Marymount, and certain others in Division II, and NAIA ball, have tried to exploit 3 > 2.

The corollary to 3> 2 is: every time a team shoots a 2, shoot a 3, until a large enough lead is built worth defending with 2s.

Fouling everywhere all the time could work against a good three point shooting team, if one had enough depth and fouls to give.

Self appears to be set with six bigs and so positioned to try just that.

But when you foul an opponent every where all the time, you reduce their offense more or less to a FT shooting offense. KU's opponents averaged .713 from the FT stripe for the season. That sounds pretty daunting to overcome and it is. But the idea is to foul so much that the refs won't call them all, and so much that even a high make rate from the stripe cannot replace the misses created on shots inside and out, especially the threes.

Stop and think about it.

Every time a foul is not called and yet triggers a severely hampered shot, or a steal, or TO, that is in effect 2, or 3 point attempt that never get effectively attempted.

Self has long grasped that he can beat a lot of teams simply by getting sharply more shooting attempts over 40 minutes.

But the more 3 point attempts an opponent takes, the harder that is to do, unless you counter the trey with your own trey at the other end. Fail to do that and you begin a long slow process of ending up with fewer attempted points at game's end.

So: what I believe Self was signaling, when he said that Dedric would likely take as many or more 3ptas this coming season, as Lagerald Vick took last season, is that Self has learned his lesson from Jay Wright.

Self is going to scheme a smothering, foul everywhere all the time defense cornerstones on six post men with 30 fouls to give, allowing: a.) his perimeter to overplay the trey out to about 30 feet; and b.) eliminate all unfouled 2ptas in close.

But that's only the defensive part of the equation.

On offense, Self has likely learned that you have to shoot more treys than your opponent until you build a lead that can be defended, and the worse your three point shooters are, the more three point attempts you have to take to make up for their deficiency in three point shooting accuracy.

The object of the game is to score the most points, not to score them with the higher percentage of accuracy.

The way you score the most points, if you are not a great shooting team, is to ramp up how many points you attempt, so even though you may make a lower percentage than your opponent, you attempt so many more that you wind up scoring more points anyway.

ffensive rebounding and second shots

The most productive paths to more attempts are:

a.) more steals and TOs diminishing an opponents attempts in ratio with yours; and

b.) more three point attempts in ratio with their three point attempts and more three point attempts in ratio with their two point attempts; and

c.) more offensive rebounds and second shots.

Clearly, KU will get more offensive rebounds and more second shots because they have more bigs.

By playing foul everywhere all the time, it could create a much greater number of steals and TOs.

By taking more treys than the opponent, and more than KU took last season, it could end up scoring more points, despite its likely lesser 3pt shooting accuracy.

Whether we bang it inside a lot most of the season against cupcakes and lesser opponents most of the season is pretty immaterial to preparations for trying to prepare to win games in the Carney from the Sweet 16 onward.

From the Sweet 16 onward, when player abilities and roster depth increasingly converge at higher and higher levels, attempting more points than an opponent is the surest path the scoring more points than an opponent.

Part of the net advantage comes from shooting more treys than the opponent does.

Part of the net advantage comes from preventing more shots of any kind by the opponent.

But I would still rather try to attempt more points than an opponent with a bunch of highly accurate three point shooters, than not.

Rock Chalk!

Jun 13, 2018 08:12 PM #65

BShark said:

Grimes, Dotson, Moore and Garrett are all good at driving. Teams are definitely going to pitch a tent in the paint.

Except for NOVA.

NOVA will try to get Grimes, Dotson, Moore and Garret to drive every possession!

3 > 2

Every drive is an auto-stop, or a self stop, if you will.

Every drive is choosing to attempt 2 points instead of 3 points.

Thus, every drive is foolish.

Every drive instead of a trey is 1/3 of a self stop.

Each time a team takes a 2 point attempt, when it could take a 3 point attempt, it is a monument to stupidity, unless...

One is playing the clock with a big lead over an opponent late.

Jun 13, 2018 08:26 PM #66

@jaybate-1.0 Interesting concept. Under you theory a physical WV type press would create more TO's and FT's which should take away the 3 opportunities for an opponent.

Jun 13, 2018 08:41 PM #67

Nic Moore.

Ah yes poor HCBS. The system works against him at every turn. Meanwhile the great rankings cover-up makes Jay Wright (an excellent talent evaluator and coach in reality) look much better than he really is! When you factor in that KU never gets calls well gosh it's rather amazing HCBS has the will to field a team. A true maverick, a renegade trying to defeat the system that definitely doesn't funnel him players too. :rolling_eyes:

Jun 13, 2018 09:55 PM #68

@Barney

Thanks for weighing in.

Yes, yes, and I think we laymen are only barely beginning to catch on to how the coaches are probably thinking about this and approaching it from a number of angles simultaneously.

Huggins is an exceptional defensive coach, same as Self.

They are predisposed to working with different kinds of players and so they probably take different strategic paths.

Coaches do not have the luxury we fans have of thinking ideally about what would work, or about what kind of players might be best.

Coaches from early on in their careers learn that there are certain kinds of players they can reliably sign year to year, and that among those there are certain kinds that they are most successful at working with to get them to improve and play the type of game the coach feels he can coach.

Each coach has to find out what he is good at and then learn how to be as flexible and adaptable within that range of "who he is" and "what he can sign" as possible. But Self just cannot become Huggins, or vice versa. They can borrow certain things, but they cannot in most cases simply copy the entire program, because they cannot sign those kinds of players, nor coach in that particular kind of way.

But nevertheless, all the good ones are all skilled and smart enough to massage the strategies on both ends of the floors to try to get to a net benefit in scored points vs. allowed points.

Huggy, Izzo, Bo Ryan, Ben Howland, long ago apparently inferred that basketball could be played at a level of contact that was so frequent that referees simply would not call all of the fouls. From that moment, the game has gotten more and more physical, despite brief respites when fouling thresholds were lowered and more fouls were called to try to deincentivize fouling everywhere all the time.

Huggins defense is one way to hold down total points attempted and accuracy. By stretching full court, it enables more opportunities to foul in transition, where refs anecdotally seem less likely to call the fouls of a certain kind, and then all of the hubbub in transition makes the refs anecdotally seem less likely to call all the fouls in half court. To call fouls and to try to control a game with foul calling, referees have to have a feel for the flow of the game. When WVU presses it is not only disrupting the other team, but the referees, too. it can backfire on WVU, as it did one game against KU where the referees appeared to feel they were tired of being had by Huggins and so simply called a ton of fouls on WVU and none on KU.

Self's M2M that funnels the ball to help in middle is another approach. KU fouls a lot once the ball gets into the middle. Sometimes they get away with it and other times not. It depends on the arena and the opponent.

Neither Huggins' defense nor Self's defense is very good at forcing the shooters out of the 20-25 foot strip of the 3 point shooting area. Both are more attuned to disruption of the flow of the offense throughout the half court area, especially the first initiation pass. They are good at keeping the ball out of certain hands and delivering help quickly and unexpectedly.

Jay Wright's break through IMHO was to dust off Jud Heathcote's old 1-3-1 matchup zone that Heathcote used when Magic Johnson was there. If you are tall at PG and one wing and have two bigs, the 1-3-1 matchup is a great zone that can really stretch and shut down open looks from outside or inside on ball side. Jay seemed to take the concept and mask it by playing several zones in match up fashion and this enabled him to push the the opponents three point shooters farther out consistently, and then rely on his two bigs inside whenever they could sucker teams to escape the pressure by moving into mid range 2 pt areas of the floor. This ability to shut off high percentage three point shots and challenge and deny the inside, hamstrung opponents into contested 2pt shots that worked to magnify Nova's great three point shooting and Jay's insight that Nova should always try to shoot 5-10 more treys than the opponent could get off.

I suspect we will see quite a bit of advancement in blending defenses schemed to deny the trey, and offenses schemed to generate open look treys on the other end.

So: even though I like to bust Jay's chops, I think the game owes him and whoever got those six trey ballers, including two post trey ballers, a debt of gratitude for showing another way to skin the basketball cat.

Jun 14, 2018 03:26 AM #69

@jaybate-1.0 I don't know if I'd go as far as a debt of gratitude. Some ways of skinning a cat are gross.

Watching James Harden and Steph Curry walk up the court and launch Ill advised threes for half of their series made me sick. Just mind numbing garbage.

If the game is infact dumbed down to a simple truth of 3 > 2, is it enjoyable at that point? Is it watchable?

Jun 14, 2018 07:54 AM #70

@approxinfinity

Your palpable disgust with the kind of play 3 > 2 seems to be generating reminds me of my father's disgust at first the proliferation of the one handed jump shot that made the long range two handed set shot obsolete.

It also reminds me of many others of his generation and their dissatisfaction with the proliferation of the dunk, which largely obsoleted the hook shot and the layup.

Further, it reminds me of me back during the mid 1990s (culminating in the dreadful 2000 championship slugfest between MSU and UW) grumbling about the referees apparent decision to "let'em play football" and the rise of the prison body bigs that literally knocked drivers into the cheap seats at times.

All rules changes trigger both foreseen and unforeseen effects, and desirable, and undesirable styles of play.

Rules determine the path tendency of interplay.

Rules changes change that path tendency.

Some times the changes come instantly, other times slowly.

The three point shot was first tried in a college game in 1945 and then rejected.

It was not instituted until 1967-68 in the ABA. Seven foot former center Commissioner George Mikan said the three point basket would help keep the little man in basketball and open up the defense to make the game more enjoyable for fans. The ABA also encouraged slam dunking to attract fans as well.

The NBA followed suit in 1980 with a 23-9 trey stripe.

FIBA followed in 1984.

From 1980 to 1985, the college three point shot came conference by conference . The Southern conference was first. Most followed the next year and from 1981 to 1985 the three point stripe ranged from 17-9 to 22-9 away from the basket. Interestingly, Michael Jordan's career at UNC from 1981-1984 paralleled the spread of the three point shot in college basketball and in 1981 the ACC three point stripe was only 17-9 feet from the basket.

The three point basket was standardized across college basketball at 19-9 in 1986-7 and first used in the NCAA men's tournament that year--the same season the trey was adopted in women's basketballl at 19-9 also.

In 1987, high schools adopted the 19-9 stripe.

In 1995, the NBA tried to spike up scoring by moving its 23-9 stripe in to 22 feet.

In 1998 the NBA moved the three point stripe back to 23-9.

In 2007 the NCAA men's stripe was moved out to 20-9.

I have recalled the time line above to show how herky jerky and uncoordinated the adoption of the rule and evolution of the rule has been. The lack of continuity and standardization of the rule early on seems to have set in motion a diluted and delayed recognition of its potential for changing the game.

Just because some one was a good three point shooter in high school did not guaranty they would be in college. And being a good trey shooter in college did not mean they would be in the pros.

As a result, for a long time, the three point shot's potential was explored mostly by coaches at programs that could not field rosters of players that could use athleticism to "get to the rim" and to jump shoot over others in the mid range.

Also, the tendency of shooters to vary widely in their accuracy game to game discouraged coaches from relying on the basic mathematical advantage of 3>2, because every so often, on a cold shooting night, cold shooting would nullify 3>2.

But the biggest discouragement of the there point shot came in the 1990s, when muscle ball spread from the NBA to the NCAA. Muscle ball eroded the timed offense. It eroded trying to avoid contact when defending in order to keep from getting fouled up. What it encouraged was physical disruption of running routes, of making timed screens and timed passes to achieve open shots. All shots began to be contested, even violently, if necessary,. Unable to run motion offenses and timing offenses effectively, offense began to be played as physically as defense.Charging and backing down, and muscling to the rim became the higher percentage plays, if you had the prison bodies to play that way.

But after the fiasco of the 2000 season when the NCAA finals became a tooth rattling scrum of poor shooting teams involving prison bodies from MSU and UW, the NCAA set out to try to clean up the flagrant physical contact for a few years. Driving athleticism and kick outs to three point shooters had a renaissance till the latter part of the Naught Decade, when a skill and muscle restoration occurred. More rules changes stymied the muscle restoration, but something interesting occurred before the muscle restoration was stopped. Teams began to try to both muscle inside and kick and shoot outside.When the rules shut down the muscle restoration, college basketball coaches began to notice that: a.) the NBA was relying more and more on the three point shot; and the new college rules made driving ball seeking the short trey was feasible. Teams relied on some of both. More rules changes ended drive ball, when referees began not calling the fouls n necessary for the short trey. That left the trey.

My point is that 3>2 is a long term structural force incentivizing offense outside, especially when other rules changes discourage other paths of play.

The play you refer to by Golden State is annoying on one level, but it is simply sound offensive strategy.

ALWAYS try to attempt as many points as possible; that invariably leads to choosing treys over 2pts shooting.

All TPTB have to do is change the rules a little, and the path tendency of shooting treys instead of 2s will redirect.

The question is: why do TPTB think that the public prefers to see trifectation over athleticism.

It would, after all, be very easy to make a rule that any basket made inside of five feet from the basket gets 3 points also.

Or it would be easy to make any mid range jumper worth three.

Nothing is written except the rules.

And they can be and often are changed.

Rock Chalk!

Jun 14, 2018 10:46 AM #71

@jaybate-1-0 maybe they could incentivize the 2 point shot by giving teams bonus points at the half if they've made x many of them :)

Jun 14, 2018 08:27 PM #72

@approxinfinity

Its very frustrating to realize that the game you loved is being changed by rules that yield foreseen, and unforeseen, consequences you don't enjoy, and wish were able to be reversed.

It is one of the less pleasant aspects of aging. As with any rules changes, basketball rules changes usually have short and long term effects. When we are young, all we have to reconcile with are the short term effects, which to us are sudden, sharp, and which we make quick reconciliation with by either accepting, and continuing on with our participation in the games, or by saying, "Phooie with this, I don't like this game anymore and I am moving on to other games."

But the longer term effects of rules changes to games surface much later and they often hit us after 30, but certainly after 40. In mid life we begin to REALLY resent these changes, because: a.) we are highly invested in the games by then; and b.) we sense there is little chance that this change is going to wind back toward what we prefer, and we have had enough prior experience with negative fall out from rules changes, to be pessimistic that anything new and improved will result.

Further, long term change emerging in our 50-60s leaves us frankly bitter, and tempted by a cynicism we have to wage a constant battle against being consumed by. We realize we are unlikely to live long enough to see this undesirable change remedied,precisely because it has taken so long for it to evolve and emerge, and we know how hard it is to change anything constructively as we age. The older we get the more we realize that change tends to occur as a result of small groups of wealthy influential individuals and their firms exploiting a vulnerability in the system of a game with the sole intent of enriching themselves, while pushing the costs of their pursuit of enrichment on to those not strong enough, or rich enough, or well organized enough, to resist the change exploitative change.

I am expounding on this at the risk of boring you for a reason.

Game theory and institutions, when studied, call attentions to assumptions, rules, incentives, strategies and tendencies of play. They sensitize us--through modeling what games and the aspects of competition the games may simulate--to the individual's subjective tendency to over emphasize his POV as being most characteristic of the full panoply of play, and underestimating the influence of institutions (rules) and the strategic incentives of others interplaying with his POV and agenda to generate what is actually probable, or even possible.

Games of all kinds have much to teach us about broadening our POVs, beyond the simple enjoyment of games, and beyond how to play them well, or be knowledgeable fans and appreciate them well.

They also teach us a considerable amount about our frustrations in life, as well as what is and is not likely, regarding many competitive aspects of the world in which we live (if we are luck).

There is a concept in the study of institutions (and the game theory used to model and analyze potential institutional effects) called "institutional stickiness."

Distilled, it is easier to make and impose new rules, than revise, or get rid of old rules, because institutions are "sticky."

They get entangled and cemented into economic and political eco systems, if you will.
It is a very powerful concept, that is embraced as a kind of heuristic, that probably implies a profound underlying law of the 19th Century kind that is simply to difficult and costly to formalize, so we keep it handy as a heuristic.

Problems tempting us to solve them by imposition of rules are often very simply understood and narrowly defined.

We want problems to go away, because problems are painful.

The more simply we define problems, the fewer persons there are we have to admit are impacted by solutions proposed. So: there is real practical (if selfish) expedience and strategic self-benefit to oversimplifying problems and who will be impacted by their solution. And it almost goes without saying that cost shifting is essentially taboo to discuss until after it has been shifted.

Thus, a proposed rule intends to solve a problem defined simplistically, whether a good rule, or a stupid one, but here is the great appeal of a rule: it has little cost of materials in the making of the rule. Its black ink on white paper. Sometimes its just pixels. All it takes is a few persons that think they will benefit handsomely from creating it, plus their perception that it won't cost too much to get the rule agreed to and imposed on all of us, plus their perception that any large foreseeable and unforeseeable costs triggered will not have to be born by the small group advocating for the new rule.

Thus, there is a tendency to impose new rules, independently of whether there is a problem fixable by rules, or fixable by the rule proposed, that is driven by how much wealth is to be achieved by the small group advocating the rule and by their ability to make others accept imposition of the rule based on their belief that that new rule will make things better.

Alas, when the lying and side payments are done, many go along to get along, and almost no thinks about the unforeseen consequences, because, well, they are unforeseen. :-)

But the conditions for change are quite different, when one considers changing, or repealing a bad rule that has been around for awhile.

First, the bad rule that has been around for awhile, has likely been enriching those that promoted the rule in the first place. So: they are one influential constituency obstructing its revision, or repeal, unless they think they can come up with a rule change that continues their enrichment, or increase it.

Second, all rules, but especially bad ones, trigger a lot of sunk costs in compensating for them. All kinds of expertise from all kinds of fields is brought to bear on problems caused by bad rules to help us live with those problems until the bad rule is changed. Its bitterly ironic, but bad rules are often actually far more cemented in place by sunk costs accreted around helping us compensate for and endure the side effects of bad rules, than are good rules that seem to require little or no professional expertise to perpetuate.

Hence, even the worst rules, maybe especially the worst ideas, become vast professional and enterprise arrays of networked sunk costs embedded in the politics and economy of a culture.

We see this played out even in the seemingly innocuous game of basketball.

It seemed a good idea (to some) to let the petroshoecos give the universities and coaches endorsement money. It meant we tax payers had to pay less for the minor sports and less for hiring the coach, and so on. But down stream, we discovered (or should I say the FBI/DOJ reputedly discovered) somewhat to our chagrins that petroshoecos require certain distributions of talent among schools to pursue their business interests and this leads into incentive methods that lead into all sorts of compliance issues and PR issues and so on that require all manner of experts in law, contracting, admissions compliance, and so on to handle the risk and pain of funding minor sports and coaches salaries increasingly through the petroshoecos. And of course the petroshoecos are part of an emerging petrowear industry trying to migrate the world off natural fibers and onto petro fibers, and trying to use slave/child/peonage labor overseas in countries with often hostile political systems to achieve big margins, and using globally marketed basketball stars to increase petrowear sales abroad and at home,, and this draws Big Oil into the equation (petrowear is a huge market and so a big consumer of oil). And, well, universities are often one of the most critical and largest cash cycle activities in a state and so Big Oil and Big Shoe may have overlapping interests/agendas in both markets and politics for oil exports, oil imports, fracking, natural gas development, helium for moving gas through pipelines, oil dome storage capacities, strategic oil reserves, and so on that a state university and its state government and elected officials might be useful in promoting.

All of the preceding makes it so the folks wagging the tail of basketball would also benefit from wagging the tail of the university, and the board of regents and the state house, which still funds quite a bit of the university budget and which influences the state's choices on political economy issues influencing all manner of linkages with this now vast array of interconnected organizational interests inside and outside government.

Comical as it sounds, changing the three point stripe one foot in (or out) could have one effect on the game (or other), but also possibly a further ripple effect outwards through the organizations I have just outlined. Often, the effect of a change in the three point stripe would be insignificant in term of foreseeable outcomes. All folks can see that. But big players like Big Oil and Big Shoe and Big Government are creatures of complexity. They live with complexity and the unforeseen consequences of interacting with that complexity 24/7, or at least quarterly in their statements that drive their stock values and particularly the incentive clauses of management.

Complexity and unforeseen consequences make the Big Players prefer changes that either perpetuate the status quo (something in your example, that you increasingly find objectionable), or change that so vastly benefits them alone that they do not have to worry much about unforeseen consequential enrichment of potential adversaries downstream. As a result, in the tiny insignificant backwater of college basketball, either nothing in the way of rules changes can happen without the watchful, cautious eye of this vast network of self interested big players, even for good reason, or only something that vastly, asymmetrically enriches those already embedded and being nourished like ticks attached to a blood reservoir the size of the Lake of the Ozarks. (Note: Jason Bateman's OZARKS series, though not filmed much on location, is quite fascinating in a dark, one-eyed, occult sort of green tinged light way, but I digress.).

All of the above is a long way of saying be careful what new rules you wish for, because you only have to enrich a relative few to bring them about. And don't hold out a lot of hope for changing bad rules without one helluva dog fight, because existing rules are cemented in often vast and unexpected ways to unexpected players that you may not have the fire power to face down and prevail over.

The above is old news and mastery of the obvious to many.

But sometimes old news is worth remastering in an age of fake news.

Rock Chalk!

Jun 14, 2018 08:37 PM #73

With @jaybate-1-0 geting on a roll lately, scrolling through his posts is helping me get in great shape for the many expected thumb wrestling contests during our g-kids upcoming visit home!

Jun 14, 2018 09:04 PM #74

BShark said:

Nic Moore.

Ah yes poor HCBS. The system works against him at every turn. Meanwhile the great rankings cover-up makes Jay Wright (an excellent talent evaluator and coach in reality) look much better than he really is! When you factor in that KU never gets calls well gosh it's rather amazing HCBS has the will to field a team. A true maverick, a renegade trying to defeat the system that definitely doesn't funnel him players too. :rolling_eyes:


First you appear to be polishing a turd, when apparently trying to use conspiracy hooey to distract from the "fact" that Nova played 6 > 39% trey shooters reputedly ranked 75-100 that outscored and out defended teams stocked with reputedly 1-75 ranked players. How did Jay do it? How did a guy who was a .600 coach prior to a few years back (if I recall correctly) get 75-100 ranked players to walk all over 1-75 ranked players for a season and a post season? How did those darned 75-100 ranked players steamroll those 1-75 rank players? Are the rankings completely unreliable? Or are you trying to tell me that a guy that was a career .600 coach prior to a few years ago suddenly figured out the key to making 75-100 rank players walk all over 1-75 rank players?! How did Jay do it? I don't believe in conspiracies, or cover ups. I am asking how did he do it? Do you understand the difference?

Next, and as I have related to you recently, I categorically reject the idea of a conspiracy, or a cover up in this situation. I don't believe anyone is covering anything up. Conspiracies are for suckers, unless the authorities prove them.

Next, some questions:

  1. What is the legal definition of funneling you refer to? Is there a law against being "funneled" players? or is there a law against certain ways of funneling players that Self has never been convicted of, or even charged with so far?

  2. If Self were being funneled players, and if this funneling were illegal, why would Self not be being funneled as many players as other coaches at elite programs were being funneled?

Might I suggest an electric orbital sander for you polishing needs?

Jun 14, 2018 09:15 PM #75

You appear to have a fanfiction narrative regarding KU. Now to address some things since you asked.

Jay is a good coach. Omari Spellman was #20, Brunson #22. Not exactly sub 75. Let me know when Villanova is named in the indictment.

Funneling as in Adidas paying players to pick an Adidas school/KU. Self played the game. Selby, Collins, Wright, Arthur etc... If you think those were clean I don't know what to tell you. There were others too, but those 4 were perhaps the most glaring. It's a good thing the probe came later, though as we found out...Preston was paid. Josh was paid. Not by KU or Self, it's just the way the system works.

Jun 14, 2018 09:26 PM #76

mayjay said:

With @jaybate-1-0 geting on a roll lately, scrolling through his posts is helping me get in great shape for the many expected thumb wrestling contests during our g-kids upcoming visit home!

Please write longer posts, so I too can get in great shape!!!! I depend on you.

Jun 14, 2018 09:31 PM #77

@jaybate-1.0

I think the best offensive strategy for every team has to be customized to their strengths and weaknesses.

GS has Curry, Thompson and Durant on the perimeter. They have some of the best shooters at distance so the long ball game works for them.

Until there is a NBA team with that firepower from distance, I expect to see a lot more GS championships!

Jun 14, 2018 09:37 PM #78

mayjay said:

With @jaybate-1-0 geting on a roll lately, scrolling through his posts is helping me get in great shape for the many expected thumb wrestling contests during our g-kids upcoming visit home!

Page Down works well. Also the down arrow on the band at the top of the screen allows you to skip to the next post quickly...:smile:

Jun 14, 2018 09:41 PM #79

I think perhaps all of us are guilty of watching too much TV news... which has become one big plate of political conspiracy accusations.

I 100% believe that Bill Self has never illegally conspired with representatives from any shoe company, AAU or high school coaches, handlers and anyone else.

Just knowing Bill, his upbringing, his career up to now.... I just don't see him being that type of person to knowingly do things he knows is illegal, either in the US court of law or within the legal framework of the NCAA.

Of course he knows things go on... he knows all of the shady people exist and talk to his recruits. What should he do? The only thing I can think of is that he should quit coaching if he can't handle these kinds of people hang around the players he recruits.

No one in college basketball is "innocent" including us! We all know there are shady things happening... so why aren't we volunteering to tag along with recruits and help guard them?

I do not believe Bill is complicit with any activity that can put Kansas at risk, or his players or staff. He suffers from the same lack of innocence all of us have; knowledge that bad people and events surround college basketball, especially with top high school recruits!

Jun 14, 2018 09:48 PM #80

@drgnslayr The rest of y'all may be guilty, but I am now, and have always been, innocent and have never cheated in any fashion. Mr. Boline's accusation in 11th grade Trigonometry was without foundation, all rumors to the contrary notwithstanding.

Jun 14, 2018 09:49 PM #81

@jaybate-1.0

I see Charlie as a 4-year player and knowing that, he is trying to maximize helping us by growing into a better player every year.

Charlie is going to get his share of PT this year. He could easily win a spot, even a starting spot.

What I like about Charlie is he will be with us for his remaining eligibility (hopefully) and that will bear us plenty of fruit. He will become an experienced PG... especially with Self-ball. Experience is what counts at PG.

So Charlie may be kept from big minutes in his career if we find top tier PGs that can earn minutes right away. That is just the risk he took by coming to a top blue blood program. But he will always be challenged here and play against top players. I feel sure Charlie will make his time in Lawrence pay off for him... and for us!

Jun 14, 2018 09:52 PM #82

@JayHawkFanToo I only read this board on my phone. No page down button!

Jun 14, 2018 09:52 PM #83

@mayjay

There are reports published that you intentionally dropped your pencil under Sarah Cantrell's dress in 9th grade.

Statements? Comments?

(no malice - just humor)

Jun 14, 2018 09:54 PM #84

JayHawkFanToo said:

mayjay said:

With redacted geting on a roll lately, scrolling through his posts is helping me get in great shape for the many expected thumb wrestling contests during our g-kids upcoming visit home!

Page Down works well. Also the down arrow on the band at the top of the screen allows you to skip to the next post quickly...:smile:

I should really do this instead of engaging/humoring him.

Jun 14, 2018 09:57 PM #85

@drgnslayr I think he used to be more involved but isn't anymore. This is just pure conjecture on my part but man, the 4 I mentioned were very dirty recruitments.

Jun 14, 2018 10:01 PM #86

@drgnslayr That is a vicious lie! I didn't know anything about looking up dresses back then!

Full disclosure: I was impeached as class president of my 8th grade Unified Studies class because I was caught with a rubber band after a beleagured Mr. Northcutt banned all rubber bands. Funny true story: my best friend raised the issue in class when I was sick on the day after the horrid misconduct. He wanted to get the regular work off track, and claimed we could learn about impeachment and stuff. Mr N bought it, my friend prosecuted, and we wasted 2 whole days. The most timid kid in class was my defense counsel. 6 votes. I couldn't even get 6 votes. Boom! Outtahere!!

This was in 1969-70, before Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton made these inquiries popular. Trendsetter me. But it was based on (Northcuttian) high crimes, not cheating.

Jun 14, 2018 10:02 PM #87

SEE REMARKS IN CAPS

BShark said:

You appear to have a fanfiction narrative regarding KU. [DON'T TELL ME YOU HATE FAN FICTION, TOO!!!!! } Now to address some things since you asked.

Jay is a good coach. [JAY WAS A .600 COACH BEFORE A FEW YEARS AGO. IS THAT WHAT YOU MEANT BY GOOD?] Omari Spellman was #20, Brunson #22. [I DID NOT KNOW THAT. THANK YOU FOR ADDING THAT TO THE DISCUSSION. WERE THEY RANKED THAT HIGH WHEN JAY SIGNED THEM, OR AFTER HE SIGNED THEM? THAT'S A PHENOMENON THAT HAPPENS SOMETIMES WITH KU RECRUITS. THEIR RANK ASCENDS AFTER THEY SIGN. HOW ABOUT WITH NOVA? I DON'T FOLLOW THEM AS CLOSELY AS YOU SEEM TO.] Not exactly sub 75. Let me know when Villanova is named in the indictment. [I WILL, IF THAT IS WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE. BUT WHY DO YOU CARE ABOUT VILLANOVA BEING NAMED IN AN INDICTMENT, OR NOT? I THOUGHT YOU WERE A KU FAN, RIGHT? YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU IF NOVA IS IDENTIFIED AS A VICTIM IN THE INDICTMENT, RIGHT? AND ARE YOU INSINUATING YOU HAVE INSIDER INFORMATION ABOUT KU---THE REPUTEDLY REPORTED VICTIM--BEING INDICTED? THAT WOULD SEEM TO INVOLVE SOMEONE BREAKING THE LAW GIVING IT TO YOU? SHOULD'T YOU GO TO THE AUTHORITIES WITH THIS APPARENTLY INSIDER INFORMATION AND REPORT IT? OR ARE YOU JUST SPECULATING WITHOUT INSIDER INFORMATION AND WITHOUT BEING A LEGAL PROFESSIONAL? I AM NOT CRITICISING YOU EITHER WAY. YOU JUST HAVEN'T MADE THESE ISSUES VERY CLEAR TO ME YET.]

Funneling as in Adidas paying players to pick an Adidas school/KU.[WHY DO YOU CALL IT FUNNELLING? WHY DON'T YOU JUST CALL IT PAYING PLAYERS. IS IT ILLEGAL TO PAY PLAYERS, OR JUST A VIOLATION OF NCAA RULES, OR BOTH? IF SO HOW? AND WHY IS SELF ABLE TO FUNNEL SO FEW PLAYERS THAT HE HAD ALMOST NO DEPTH AT THE POST LAST SEASON--CERTAINLY NO THREE POINT SHOOTING POST MEN LIKE NOVA, RIGHT? WHY DOES SELF HAVE SO MUCH TROUBLE FUNNELING PLAYERS WITH MONEY, WHEN YOU MAKE IT SEEM LIKE JAY DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO FUNNEL AT ALL TO SIGN 1-75 PLAYERS AND 75-100 PLAYERS THAT PLAY BETTER THAN 1-75 PLAYERS? TRYING TO UNDERSTAND YOUR THINKING HERE. I DIDN'T KNOW NOVA HAD A BUNCH OF 1-75 RANKED PLAYERS.MAYBE YOU KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT WHY SELF RECRUITS WORSE PAYING PLAYERS THAN JAY NOT--IF YOU KNOW HE ISN'T.] Self played the game. [HOW CAN YOU BE SO SURE? I MEAN, YOU APPEAR TO BE IMPLYING A .600 COACH A FEW YEARS BACK, LIKE JAY WRIGHT, WAS, CAN SIGN 1-75 GUYS LIKE SELBY, COLLINS, WRIGHT, ARTHUR, ETC., WITHOUT EVEN PAYING THEM, BUT FOR SOME REASON YOU ARE POSITIVE SELF PAYS PLAYERS AND THAT KU, IDENTIFIED AS A VICTIM, IS GOING TO BE INDICTED. I JUST DON'T FOLLOW HOW YOU CAN BE SO SURE ABOUT ALL OF THIS. I AM PRETTY CONFUSED ABOUT ALL OF THIS, AND I DON'T CLAIM TO KNOW EVERYTHING YOU DO. I AM NOT SAYING YOU DON'T KNOW. I AM SAYING I DON'T SEE HOW YOU KNOW? MAYBE YOU WILL EXPLAIN HOW YOU KNOW FOR SURE.]. Selby, Collins, Wright, Arthur etc... If you think those were clean I don't know what to tell you. [WELL, IF JAY CAN RECRUIT 1-75 GUYS AND BE CLEAN, WHY CAN'T BILL? I DON'T FOLLOW YOUR REASONING.] There were others too [WHO EXACTLY?], but those 4 were perhaps the most glaring.[THEY DON'T SEEM GLARING TO ME. I AM NOT EVEN SURE WHAT GLARING MEANS IN A LEGAL SENSE. I DON'T FOLLOW YOU HERE EITHER. AND I AM TRYING.] It's a good thing the probe came later, though as we found out...Preston was paid. Josh was paid. Not by KU or Self, it's just the way the system works.[AH, SO YOU APPEAR TO BE SAYING THAT THE 1-75 PLAYERS SELF AND JAY SIGN ARE PAID; THAT THAT IS JUST HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS, BUT THAT SELF AND JAY WRIGHT TO NOT PAY THEM, AND THE SCHOOLS DO NOT PAY THEM. HMMM. SO: YOU APPEAR TO BE IMPLYING THAT SELF AND KU AND JAY AND NOVA WILL NOT BE INDICTED, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT PAY THESE PLAYERS; RATHER, THE "SYSTEM" DID. IS THAT ABOUT THE GIST OF IT? YOU SEEM TO BE SAYING NEITHER JAY AND NOVA, NOR BILL AND KU WILL BE INDICTED. WELL, I AGREE, BUT I JUST DON'T HAVE THE KIND OF KNOWLEDGE BASE THAT YOU APPEAR TO HAVE THAT APPEARS TO MAKE YOU BE SO SURE. I JUST DOUBT THAT EITHER BILL AND KU, OR JAY AND NOVA WILL BE INDICTED. ROCK CHALK!


Jun 14, 2018 10:07 PM #88

@jaybate-1.0 Is there a specific Bengay ointment for thumbs? Overtraining injury....

Jun 14, 2018 10:09 PM #89

@mayjay

C’mon, man up and hit that key board!

Jun 14, 2018 10:10 PM #90

I do dislike fan fiction in general yes. However some good has come of it, like Sergio Leonne westerns but I digress.

Brunson was always highly ranked, I know this because KU recruited him. I can't answer on Spellman.

The KU bump isn't as big as say, the Duke bump but Marcus Garrett did go from unranked to near top 50. In the last class, Dotson and Grimes were always highly ranked. McCormack bumped up a bit I think. Agbaji went from being a relative unknown, barely top 300 to 128. Probably would have happened if he ended up at say, Wisconsin, which he almost did. He got tons of interest late from major programs which always make the rankings guys spin around a bit.

I don't think Jay or Self will end up being indicted. Especially given that we have already seen KU players named, but no one even tangentially related to KU. It SEEMS for the time being that KU (and Nova for that matter) are safe.

Jun 14, 2018 10:15 PM #91

@drgnslayr

Agreed, but man was it nice to have had trey dingers like Sherron, Frank and Devonte!

And we will have to hope the game turns away from teams having 3-6 > 39% trey dingers in their regular rotations during the next couple years.

Jun 14, 2018 10:32 PM #92

JayHawkFanToo said:

mayjay said:

With @jaybate-1-0 geting on a roll lately, scrolling through his posts is helping me get in great shape for the many expected thumb wrestling contests during our g-kids upcoming visit home!

Page Down works well. Also the down arrow on the band at the top of the screen allows you to skip to the next post quickly...:smile:

————

You both are finally getting it!!!

Scroll, baby scroll!

It’s always worked for me

Howling!

Jun 14, 2018 10:36 PM #93

mayjay said:

@drgnslayr The rest of y'all may be guilty, but I am now, and have always been, innocent and have never cheated in any fashion. Mr. Boline's accusation in 11th grade Trigonometry was without foundation, all rumors to the contrary notwithstanding.

——————-

Was Mr. Boline a member of the Deep State?

Jun 14, 2018 10:38 PM #94

BShark said:

JayHawkFanToo said:

mayjay said:

With redacted geting on a roll lately, scrolling through his posts is helping me get in great shape for the many expected thumb wrestling contests during our g-kids upcoming visit home!

Page Down works well. Also the down arrow on the band at the top of the screen allows you to skip to the next post quickly...:smile:

I should really do this instead of engaging/humoring him.

——————

By George, he is catching on!!!!

First Kim saw the light with Trump.

And now @BShark catches on.

Halaleujah!!!!

Jun 14, 2018 10:39 PM #95

BShark said:

@drgnslayr I think he used to be more involved but isn't anymore. This is just pure conjecture on my part but man, the 4 I mentioned were very dirty recruitments.

—————-

Evidence please.

Jun 14, 2018 10:42 PM #96

BShark said:

I do dislike fan fiction in general yes. However some good has come of it, like Sergio Leonne westerns but I digress.

Brunson was always highly ranked, I know this because KU recruited him. I can't answer on Spellman.

The KU bump isn't as big as say, the Duke bump but Marcus Garrett did go from unranked to near top 50. In the last class, Dotson and Grimes were always highly ranked. McCormack bumped up a bit I think. Agbaji went from being a relative unknown, barely top 300 to 128. Probably would have happened if he ended up at say, Wisconsin, which he almost did. He got tons of interest late from major programs which always make the rankings guys spin around a bit.

I don't think Jay or Self will end up being indicted. Especially given that we have already seen KU players named, but no one even tangentially related to KU. It SEEMS for the time being that KU (and Nova for that matter) are safe.

——————

Thanks for getting real.

I was about to call your doctor!

No, wait, that’s your line.

😀

Jun 14, 2018 10:57 PM #97

jaybate 1.0 said:

BShark said:

@drgnslayr I think he used to be more involved but isn't anymore. This is just pure conjecture on my part but man, the 4 I mentioned were very dirty recruitments.

—————-

Evidence please.

Didn't you once tell me that it's not on you for me to research your claim? Just look into each one yourself via internet search. I'm not going to "do your legwork".

Jun 15, 2018 12:04 AM #98

REMARKS IN CAPS

BShark said:

Nic Moore.

Ah yes poor HCBS. [CANT EVEN SIGN 4 CREDIBLE D1 BIGS CLEARED TO PLAY LAST SEASON. CANT EVEN SIGN BACKUPS FOR THE PERIMETER. IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN?]The system works against him at every ]turn. [CANT SIGN OAD 1/5S. CANT SIGN A LONG OR MEDIUM STACK. IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN? Meanwhile the great rankings cover-up makes Jay Wright (an excellent talent evaluator and coach in reality [RED PILL OR BLUE?]) look much better than he really is! [.600 TILL SUDDEN TRANSFORMATION] When you factor in that KU never gets calls [GOT’EM AGAINST WVU] well gosh it's rather amazing HCBS has the will to field a team. [HE APPARENTLY GETS A KICK OUT OF INFURIATING THE ASYMMETRIC SYSTEM WHILE CLIPPING $10M COUPONS!] A true maverick, [YUP!] a renegade trying to defeat the system [HE ALREADY BEAT IT. HOF!] that definitely doesn't funnel him players too [BUT SPOTS THEM 6-10 TO HIS 2-3 . :rolling_eyes: ROTFLMAO!

———————

I have seen so many come and go. Please. Play nice. You can do it. It’s a friendly community.

Jun 15, 2018 02:10 AM #99

@jaybate-1.0 I was joking. But towards basketball I do find myself vacillating between the thought process you characterized as being the youthful perspective, i.e. "to hell with this game, I'll find another" and a deep pervasive sadness as the games I loved and thought would be eternal all have gotten facelifts, and estranged their lifelong friends.

Jun 15, 2018 03:09 AM #100

I guessed you were joking, and it gave me a good laugh, as you are blessed with a fine sense of humor, but this experience of disatisfaction with change over a lifetime appears widespread in perception among individuals, yet coped with quite differently by each of them. Humor goes quite a way as a saave. But the dissatisfaction can be quite corrosive and life draining for some, while others find positive paths through the sticky wicket. I don’t know the answers of how to avoid the corrosion and stay positive. I am a horse in mid stream still in the big two hearted river. But I can at least share the issue, so others do not think they are alone. Or think something is wrong with them. It’s human as nearly as I can tell.

Rock Chalk!!!

Jun 15, 2018 03:50 AM #101

Rock Chalk buddy. I just finished coaching my boys in soccer and baseball. Both are moving on to travel soccer. This may be the end for me coaching in both sports. I am pretty emotional these days about sports and transitions for this reason as well. We are entering the Nike puppy mill, eyes wide open, and a lump in my throat.

Jun 15, 2018 04:25 AM #102

BShark said:

jaybate 1.0 said:

BShark said:

@drgnslayr I think he used to be more involved but isn't anymore. This is just pure conjecture on my part but man, the 4 I mentioned were very dirty recruitments.

—————-

Evidence please.

Didn't you once tell me that it's not on you for me to research your claim? Just look into each one yourself via internet search. I'm not going to "do your legwork".

——————

Now I recall reading where you’re kind of indulging me and I feel that’s some common ground we share and can build on, for I feel I am kind of doing the same with you.

Next , I said please regarding evidence, didn’t i? I didn’t give you an order, or demand you do it. I should get a kudo for that.

Next, you appeared to suggest you knew something specifically about what Self and KU had done that was “dirty” in each case, so since I don’t know of such info, I thought I ought to ask . And it seemed you could type it off the top of your head. But I’m ok with you not. I try in good faith to take what you give me.

Regardless, to give you the benefit of the doubt, I was hoping you might have something substantive that made you be so sure, because I have read some accounts about some of these examples over the years and recall not reading of any evidence that seemed beyond a reasonable doubt to implicate Self and/or KU in any thing illegal. But I am a legal layman and a fan and so I thought maybe you knew more, but now it appears you didn’t find anything more incriminating beyond a reasonable doubt than I did. I infer you found “indications” of “dirtiness.” Dirtiness is not a legal term of art that I am aware of, so I infer you are not using it to indicate Self or KU committed a felony, right?

FWIW, since reading Murray Sperber’s 1990 “College Sports, Inc.,” and Dan Wetzel’s 2000 “Sole Influence” I have guessed many, if not most D1 recruits and players have received considerations in various forms that would not be in full conformity with NCAA regulations, but I am not clear about whether any illegality has been widespread or not. I have tended to guess that the rarity of criminal convictions in college basketball indicated illegality was either not prevalent, or else so widespread as to be like certain kinds of political and law enforcement corruption treated as normalized and give a blind eye. I could never tell which.

You, however, seem to write as if you know for a fact what goes on with Self both in terms of “dirty” and/or “illegal”, but then stop short, at least in my recall, of supplying evidence beyond a reasonable doubt proving Self’s culpable role, especially regarding illegalities. In short, there seems a gap between your apparently confident assertions about Self’s culpability and the evidence. Further your assertions do not yet appear to square with the fact he has not been convicted, or even charged, with any illegalities in procuring players over several decades at several schools.

And when I add in that the reputed FBI/DOJ remarks reputedly characterize KU as a victim, well, then I am not clear why you believe what you appear to believe.

Jun 15, 2018 04:29 AM #103

@approxinfinity

Be brave. I have not run that gamut, but can imagine great pride/love and some trepidation mix for a strong life cocktail.

Jun 15, 2018 11:31 AM #104

BShark said:

@drgnslayr I think he used to be more involved but isn't anymore. This is just pure conjecture on my part but man, the 4 I mentioned were very dirty recruitments.

—————-

You appear to conjecture purely that “the system” is dirty and so makes Jay Wright and Bill Self recruit as “dirty” as you conjecture purely that they do.

Who do you conjecture purely is responsible for dirtying the system so that Jay Wright and Bill Self appear to recruit as dirty as you appear to conjecture purely that they do?

Note: My question is purely conjecture.

Jun 15, 2018 03:53 PM #105

@BShark I think they both start. DD/Charlie/Grimes/Dedric/ Doke. First man up w the bigs: Silvio. First man up w the guards: Marcus Garrett.

Jun 15, 2018 04:04 PM #106

KUSTEVE said:

@BShark I think they both start. DD/Charlie/Grimes/Dedric/ Doke. First man up w the bigs: Silvio. First man up w the guards: Marcus Garrett.

KJ I think will be more of a factor than this. But I see it similar, with the players you mentioned and KJ being the primary 8 player rotation.

Jun 15, 2018 04:05 PM #107

So no Garrett?

Jun 15, 2018 04:07 PM #108

@Crimsonorblue22 Are you asking me? I think Garrett is firmly in the 8 man rotation and could start.

Jun 15, 2018 04:11 PM #109

@BShark but not starting? Who knows! 5 guard rotation? I would say grimes for sure, that's it.

Jun 15, 2018 04:29 PM #110

@mayjay

I laughed so hard that now I have to clean green smoothie off my monitor and keyboard!

Jun 15, 2018 04:30 PM #111

@jaybate-1.0

I'm hearing that everyone except maybe Doke is working hard on their threy accuracy this summer!

We'll find a couple of good shooters... long ways to go until tip off!

Jun 15, 2018 04:33 PM #112

@KUSTEVE

I agree, except for Silvio. He is just too good to keep off the floor, UNLESS....unless he and Jay Wright and Bill Self and Jay Bilas are already in some kind of @BShark insider knowledge based, purely conjectural, but fantastically high confidence witness relocation program as we type. Booga booga! 😀

“Paranoia strikes deep

Into your heart it will creep...”

—Buffalo Springfield, “For What It’s Worth”

Ahem.

Self tries to get his best 5 guys on the floor.

U r probably right at season’s start.

I guess Silvio could back up all year, because he has less experience than Ded and Doke, but...

Wow! Silvio seems a potential NBA stud to me already with just a half season of grooming.

Silvio seems the best big Self has recruited other than The Lion Slayer.

Normally he would sit and learn for a season, but he sat and learned half a season last year instead of attending Prom!

OMG!

Self has to find a place for him at tip off, by mid season, if @BShark, the Feds and the NCAA don’t deny him.

Jun 15, 2018 04:42 PM #113

drgnslayr said:

@jaybate-1.0

I'm hearing that everyone except maybe Doke is working hard on their threy accuracy this summer!

We'll find a couple of good shooters... long ways to go until tip off!

———————

I never recall more than one mid 30% bricker transmogrifying into a 40% trifectater in a single season, do you?

Therefore the odds of even two of our guys reaching the 40% level seem slim.

And frankly, a team apparently needs at least 3 even to hang on against other teams with 4-6 from the Elite on.

I fear the days of Elite Eight and higher teams with only 1 > 39% trifectaters are behind us, maybe even with only two, also.

But I like your optimism!

Jun 15, 2018 05:31 PM #114

jaybate 1.0 said:

I never recall more than one mid 30% bricker transmogrifying into a 40% trifectater in a single season, do you?

2014-2015
- Svi - 0.288
- Manning- 0.333

2015-2016
- Svi - 0.402
- Manning- 0.500

You were saying?

Jun 15, 2018 05:57 PM #115

@JayHawkFanToo Also

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/frank-mason-1.html ↗

Jun 15, 2018 05:58 PM #116

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@BShark but not starting? Who knows! 5 guard rotation? I would say grimes for sure, that's it.

He might. Staff loves him that much we know. Going to be a battle for minutes.

Jun 15, 2018 06:20 PM #117

@BShark

He was asking for more than one player in the same seasons. He seems to think that teams will start stocking up 3-point shooters when in reality Villanova was an aberration and far from the norm.

Jun 15, 2018 06:24 PM #118

@drgnslayr Glad to be of assistance! Those fond memories....

Jun 15, 2018 06:41 PM #119

@JayHawkFanToo Evan went 1 for 3 to 2 for 4?

Jun 15, 2018 06:42 PM #120

@Crimsonorblue22

He asked for percentages...:smile:

Jun 15, 2018 08:48 PM #121

JayHawkFanToo said:

@BShark

...when in reality Villanova was an aberration and far from the norm.

——————

Can an aberration be near the norm, or would it just be near the norm?

Jun 15, 2018 09:02 PM #122

@jaybate-1.0 Aberrations are the new normal.

Jun 15, 2018 09:14 PM #123

@jaybate-1.0

I understand the fear.

But let's face it... any team we face that gets hot from trey is a team we can lose to, regardless of their personnel or ours.

Jun 15, 2018 09:15 PM #124

@JayHawkFanToo

Evan Manning?

Um, no.

Two rotation players the same season that start the same season as 30% brickers from the previous season and end up >39%ers with > 100 3pt attempts. Capice?

I love it when you reach desperately though!!!!

Hey, I’ll go you one better! (Nudge, nudge, wink, wink)

I also went from 25% to 50% in 4 three point attempts in a grey hair league!!!!! That’s a total of three: Svi, Manning and Me!!!

You were saying? 😂

Say, is Rummie a big Trump supporter?

Trump is starting look more and more like Jeremiah Johnson, isn’t he?

Oh, eh, u don’t like political talk mixed in. I withdraw the comment.

Jun 15, 2018 09:17 PM #125

mayjay said:

@jaybate-1.0 Aberrations are the new normal.

Well put.

In statistical terms, the formal and informal institutions have been parameters recalibrated to bias toward greater sigma around mu. 🤓

It does no oligarchy much good to rig a system to stasis (low variance), for that makes it hard to unstick and redirect the system brought under control (at considerable shifted cost) where you want it to go.

Gotta design in a little wiggle to reduce stickiness.

And the more you control you have the more variance you can afford to (and so want to) design in, so that stickiness becomes almost no obstacle at all.

Strange tendencies within what appears frightening chaos to others can be as good of ally as order in moving complex systems off their legacy equilibrium strategy.

This was one of the most impactful insights of chaos and complexity theories application in systems management.

Or so it seems to this fan.

But you still have to be vigilant about unforeseen consequences

Jun 15, 2018 09:23 PM #126

drgnslayr said:

@jaybate-1.0

I understand the fear.

But let's face it... any team we face that gets hot from trey is a team we can lose to, regardless of their personnel or ours.

This is why I think what Jay did is so important to learn the lesson of.

With six > 39% trey balllers and all but two ranked 75-100 (that was for @BShark), you can win most of the time even against teams with only 2-3 >39% trey ballers, even when they are hot!

Basically, for you to lose with 6 trey ballers all six have to blow cold. It just doesn’t matter much what the other team does.

Jun 16, 2018 04:53 PM #127

@jaybate-1.0

Interesting concept.

Add in the ability for offensive rebounds. At what clip do we rebound? That changes all your numbers.

Treys usually create rebounds covering a wider area, which should give offensive teams a bit more advantage because it's harder to defend that much turf for rebounding.

I'm not sure what to think about our big post presence for next year.

I kind of felt like Self was just getting the hang of a 4-guard offense.

It wasn't long ago when we were talking about "BAD BALL" and grind games.

I'm guessing you have watched plenty of GS basketball, especially in the playoffs.

What I noticed... there is not such a thing as a "bad shot" for GS if it's behind the trey line.

Curry and company will often toss bricks for 3 quarters or so and they seem to not even care. All they have to do is stay within striking distance.

Their concept is "to establish their style of play" and then the game is typically long enough for them to hit a stride or two at some point. When they are on, they are on... and no lead is safe while they build a lead that can grow to be safe. You can often see GS give up an under the basket easy stuff to kick for a difficult trey attempt. Imagine Self buying into this?!

Watch body language. Use your remote and go back to some horrible missed treys by GS, and then watch their body language after the bad misses. You can't tell they even missed those shots. It is because they understand. They understand after those shots that the shot isn't falling but the only way to hit stride is to be playing the right style. The only thing missing is the make.

The one thing I'm certain about GS is they have a unique view of treys over the entire rest of the league. They were almost laughing at Lebron on his easy score drives. Lebron could have scored 100 points and lost. What Lebron needs to learn is what Durant had to learn; the next level is to become a lethal threat from trey and then don't hesitate to take over games. The real difference in this series was Durant. Durant started heating up on the long ball, often from 35 feet. Lebron is close to being that capable of a shooter, and he certainly could become one. But he needs to change his perspective. I'm sure those easy drive finishes feel fantastic for him, but those need to be the bail out points and not the overall strategy.

But we have to remember that D1 is not the NBA. I still believe it is primarily defense that is the best weapon to take into March. Nova hit everything on us... but they also played really good defense and they neutralized our trey ball by defending up high. They also didn't seem to mind if we scored in the paint.

What we really need is for one or two of our bigs to become efficient at trey. That's a real game changer because there are few players in D1 that can guard that. Heck... few players in the NBA, too. No one can really stop Kevin Durant.

Jun 16, 2018 06:37 PM #128

@drgnslayr

When ever I can get you thinking about the game's frontier, I learn a lot. Thanks for responding.

Your comparison of Durant and Lebron distills things elegantly, and I hope everyone reads your post and stays to the end to read and absorb it.

All competitive activities originate in two points of view and play out according to choices that alter the opportunity sets of each other, choice by choice, for the duration of the competition.

If Kerr had signed Lebron instead of, Durant, and Durant had gone to Cleveland, it appears Lebron would have developed his trey and be draining them much as Durant is now. And Durant would likely still be feinting many more trey attempts and driving through Golden State the same way Lebron was doing.

Culture affects human being's points of view.

A team is a culture.

Durant has embraced the Golden State culture.

Lebron has embraced the Cleveland culture.

Cleveland should hire Luke Walton, or someone that gets the Golden State culture, and get on with trying to do it better with Lebron. Lebron is still the biggest athletic freak on the planet (to quote Self) at his position. Persons forget that it takes great springs and great strength to shoot the long trey. Durant is not just a great shooter, he is a great athlete on the order of Lebron, but it appears to me that Lebron still holds an advantage over Durant as a physical specimen of athletic prowess. Lebron is something like Wilt Chamberlain in that he seems able to master anything he sets his mind to master. I have little doubt that he could become the deepest trey threat of all, because of his fabulous strength.

I am not exaggerating, when I say I believe Lebron could become a proficient 40 foot trey shooter, if a coach laid in a 3pt culture and said this is what we need from you to win rings tell hell freezes over.

And here is why Lebron triggering from 40 feet, instead of Durant's triggering from 35, could be a decisive advantage for the team that decided to deploy Lebron in this way. Every foot farther out that a team initiates the trey attempts from adds a foot of trey shooting space "underneath" the farthest distance that treys are taken from. By using Lebron's fabulous strength and athleticism to become a credible threat to launch the trey from 40 feet, massively increases the area "underneath" where Lebron could dish off to for an absolutely open look trey.

Everything has changed about offense except the way we think about it. Kerr, whether on his own, or from skulling with Tex Winter, or Phil Jackson, or whomever, has exposed how the farther away from a basket a team can reliably initiate the trey the more it opens up the "underneath" trey. IMHO, what makes Golden State so tough is not just the number of treys they take, but great distance from the basket that they are willing to take them from. I have not seen statistics on this but it is my expectation that Golden State takes more open look treys than anyone else, not just more treys.

This insight occurred to me after watching Jay Wright's Villanova team in the tournament this past year. Nova didn't just take more treys, they took more from farther out. And some of them were just jaw-droopingly far out. Their Italian Stallion guard took a few from distances that I frankly could not believe he could reliably even hit the rim. But he was deadly. Then when you go back an think about what his super long treys did to the "spacing" in the three point area of the court, one sees the offenders basically able to be another 5-8 feet farther apart from the ball. When their longest long ball threat was working out front, and even threatening to take a trey, the defenders on the wings had to EITHER float out much closer to the wing they were guarding, OR they had to float out much farther into the passing lane. Either choice resulted in the wing man having MUCH MORE room to move to get open and to shoot the trey from a convenient arch for him. Not all of Nova's trifectates could take and make the 35 footer like the Italian stallion, but having him out front posing the threat fantastically opened up the three point are "underneath" for open looks by guys who needed to receive the ball 23-27 out. I believe this effect goes on with Golden State, also. And Golden State has two guys--Curry and Durant--that can shoot it from high earth orbit. And the real force multiplier comes when one of them is out at 35 feet threatening to take the trey and the other is "underneath" looking for an open look 28 footer, which is practically a mid range jumper for this quality of professional shooter.

Hence, my hunch is that if a team were to leverage Lebron's freakish athleticism to learn to gun a 40 foot trey, instead of a 30 foot trey, and get him two teammates capable of shooting the 25-35 foot trey, Lebron' s team might get even more open look, uncontested treys than GS.

Yes, at some distance with some athletes there are diminishing returns on make rates.

Maybe Kerr sets the 35 foot range where he does, because that is what Durant and Curry can handle.

All the better to see if Lebron can learn to be the first king of the 40 foot three.

The inside game will not disappear. It will adjust to the long rebounding you describe and to having better and better passers for big men. Developing big men that can not only range and grab the long rebounds, but also either take and make the trey, or, more likely, pass like guards and hit the open trey shooters in the hands on the way up for their long treys seems the future of big men to me at the pro level.

And what happens at the pro level inevitably trickles down over time, usually in diluted form, to the college game.

Jun 16, 2018 07:11 PM #129

Kevin Durant in his years before joining GS 1.9 4.8 .384. That includes a pretty rancid rookie year and his first two years skew his attempt numbers down. Durant has always been a great shooter. His last year in OKC was better than his first year in OKC from range, pretty easily. Last three years at OKC 3PA per game: 6.1, 5.9, 6.7. First two years at GS 5, 6.1. So, did going to GS really fundamentally change Durant? I would say no.

Lebron for his career 1.5 4.4 .337.

Lebron definitely didn't have the shooters that GS has, which I believe is what you were saying. Curry is a transcendent shooter and Klay isn't very far behind. Durant for his position and size is very good too. It's a pretty specially constructed roster. Houston had a real chance to beat them though, if CP3's hamstring wasn't cursed. I really would have liked to have seen that. GS still might have won, but it would have been MUCH more interesting.

Jun 19, 2018 04:29 PM #130

@jaybate-1.0

I'm not sure I've ever read one of your posts where I thought you nailed it this well.

I'm totally with you... Lebron should work on mastering the 40-ft shot. And you are right... not all treys are the same and the further you go out you are telling the defense they have to stretch that far, too.

I recall the first time GS took it to Lebron and he said he was going to go work on distance treys, and he did. I think we've seen him extending his range, but he just doesn't have the conviction (mindset) GS players have.

Yes... GS could have done well to take Lebron over Durant, and yes, Lebron's strength should extend his range.

I wonder when the NBA will make backcourt baskets worth 4 points? It sounds ludicrous, but it would start to impact the game at some point. You put a carrot out there and the players will go for it and master it. Players "practice" the long ball from backcourt, but they do it for fun and not to learn precision.

I do believe the "Golden State Effect" has changed all of basketball. Finally a team that really embraces the trey enough to be "all in!"

I feel sure Jay Wright gets it.

As to our team, I agree with everyone that the trey ball will not come as plentiful this year. But I'm sure we will have games where we scorch from trey.

Shooters like Svi and BG don't come around every year... but did we really improve that much with these players? We also sacrificed defense.

I think I would be looking for marksmen who have the ability to bring a lot more to the game than just the trey ball. And it sends a message to your team that you are willing to sacrifice defense and rebounding if a guy can shoot the rock from trey. I'm not sure that is an attitude I would want running through my team.

Pros are so much different than D1 players. First.. they are older and wiser (or should be). Second... this is their living. They see what money has brought them... fancy homes, cars... and fancy wives that demand a lot! Their motivated to listen to the right coaches and focus on those goals. D1.. there is emotion and desire, but there also exists outside temptations and a juvenile mindset that makes it tough for them to focus like the pros do.

I curse his name every time we play them... but ultimately, I respect Jay Wright, if for no other reason than his ability to get his players to buy in 100%! That's really tough to do, especially in D1!

Jun 19, 2018 04:43 PM #131

@jaybate-1.0

If you want a real advantage on offense...

Essentially... you turn what might otherwise be a very good defense into one that is really only with 4 players on defense. All you need is a center that is proficient from trey!

Few 5s can defend from trey, and if they do, you have them away from the basket, where their gifts of rebounding and shot blocking are now neutralized.

Using the "Golden State Effect" even further... forget the 4-guard offense! Think 5-guard offense! Think about how effective a guy like Kevin Durant could be in college right now! Imagine if his coach would understand the game well enough to really take advantage of his abilities? He is tall enough to fill the paint, but can kill from trey!

Let's bring this home to Kansas again... Didn't Konate return to WVU for the upcoming year? I think so. He's quite a shot blocker. If we really want to think like GS... we would have a team of shooters, including at the 5 so we would pull Konate out of the paint, completely neutralizing his biggest gift of defense!

Jun 19, 2018 07:55 PM #132

drgnslayr said:

@jaybate-1.0

If you want a real advantage on offense...

Essentially... you turn what might otherwise be a very good defense into one that is really only with 4 players on defense. All you need is a center that is proficient from trey!

Few 5s can defend from trey, and if they do, you have them away from the basket, where their gifts of rebounding and shot blocking are now neutralized.

Using the "Golden State Effect" even further... forget the 4-guard offense! Think 5-guard offense! Think about how effective a guy like Kevin Durant could be in college right now! Imagine if his coach would understand the game well enough to really take advantage of his abilities? He is tall enough to fill the paint, but can kill from trey!

Let's bring this home to Kansas again... Didn't Konate return to WVU for the upcoming year? I think so. He's quite a shot blocker. If we really want to think like GS... we would have a team of shooters, including at the 5 so we would pull Konate out of the paint, completely neutralizing his biggest gift of defense!


OMG! I opened the door. You kicked it down!!!!

Those trey shooting bigs of NOVA completely got me salivating at the five guard concept.

How is this for a new epigram for the modern age of basketball:

"EVERY MAN A GUARD!"

What big man not being channeled against his will by the petroshoeco-agency complex would not sign with a team with that sign up over the locker room door?!!!!!!

Jun 19, 2018 09:21 PM #133

@jaybate-1.0

Five guards works in high school because talent trumps size at that level, and many teams simply can't punish a five guard lineup on the glass.

But as you move up, you have to have big guys that can hit the boards. If you have a Durant or Lebron type, that works, but otherwise you have to have someone that can clean the boards.

There have been five guard lineups that have won state titles in high school. I can't remember a college team (D1) that won a title without a big guy.

Jun 19, 2018 11:54 PM #134

A hot tre balling team can knock anyone from the tournament. The trick is winning when you are cold.

Jun 19, 2018 11:56 PM #135

If the NCAA was a best of series instead of sudden death Bill would be ridiculous to not trot out 4-5 theee point shooters. Since one bad showing can end your season the offense must be more diverse and the defense must be fierce.

Last year KU had a horrible defensive team (for a final four team) especially outside. Hopefully the more athletic longer guards coming in next season will be better defenders.

Jun 20, 2018 04:36 AM #136

dylans said:

A hot tre balling team can knock anyone from the tournament. The trick is winning when you are cold.

——————-

I think Jay Wright showed there is a threshold total number of trey shooters—about six—that efffectively manages the risk of blowing cold.

Jun 20, 2018 12:26 PM #137

@jaybate-1.0 Nova shot horriblily against TexasTech, 33% from the field and won. They got lucky that Tech wasn’t ready for the big stage. Otherwise the whole narrative changes.

Jun 20, 2018 12:49 PM #138

@dylans Worse than that, they were 16.7% from three. And important to that point, though, Nova was very highly ranked in the 3 point defense -- their differential of almost 9% between made and allowed has to be close to the leader. Further, Nova shot 1158 threes to their opponents' 858. KU's comparison was 974-947. So volume difference exacerbates the % advantage further. Overall, Nova was 13th in three point defense. By comparison, Kansas was 92nd in three point defense. Also, TT shot 25% from three the game vs Nova. Couple Nova's impressive three point defense, with the other important stat -- being first in three point baskets made, that's a nice recipe.

Jun 20, 2018 01:01 PM #139

Defense was a problem all last season for KU. Good shooting and coaching helped mask it a bit.

Jun 20, 2018 01:17 PM #140

jaybate 1.0 said:

“EVERY MAN A GUARD!”


I like that! Of course we are talking about a few guards at 6'8" to 7'!

I think I'm just frustrated giving my time to watch basketball and some of the players don't have handles. I don't want to watch any play with a guy who can't handle the rock any better than me!

Jun 20, 2018 05:18 PM #141

dylans said:

@jaybate-1.0 Nova shot horriblily against TexasTech, 33% from the field and won. They got lucky that Tech wasn’t ready for the big stage. Otherwise the whole narrative changes.


Like so many that became conditioned to view events too often through the lens of "conspiracy" apparently because of the government's (or perhaps just the Deep State's imbedded agents in government, media and the academy, it is still hard to say which) long term propaganda/psy-op campaign of meming with "conspiracy theory", you appear to be becoming conditioned to view this event through what could turn out to be the government's (or Deep State's) psy-ops campaign of meming with "narrative".

Regardless, I SEE NO "NARRATIVE" HERE.

We are two persons discussing a Villanova basketball team's historical accomplishments. They really happened. They are not a narrative spun that can change.

What we infer from what happened, i.e., what Villanova accomplished, could be treated disingenuously as a "narrative" to be spun to fool you, or I, but I, at least, can assure you that that is NOT my intent. I am not trying to fool you with a narrative. I am exchanging posts with you about a real event and I am really trying to understand the drivers of its occurance. To reiterate for emphasis, there is no narrative here based on my actions. NONE.

Let me go a little further and add: ""narrative" seems increasingly to be for suckers" to my other epigram, i.e., "conspiracy IS for suckers, unless proven" and then generalize both as "psy-ops are for suckers in general." :-)

The above noted, NO offense/defense scheme can guaranty victory under all conditions. NONE. Not even John Wooden's, who on top of having won 10 NCAA championships in 11 years, also had FOUR undefeated seasons!!!!!! Wooden's UCLA teams were tripped up a number of times, even during his 11 year stretch of greatest success. But it would be silly to say that the narrative would be different, if he his team had shot poorly against a better team instead of the teams it shot poorly against. Right? The point is Wooden's coaching emphasized through endless indoctrination with the Pyramid of Success that a player had to be at his best when he needed his best and he had to strive to achieve competitive greatness regardless of how well, or poorly, things were going. Maybe Jay Wright, a .600 coach until recently, studied Wooden, or Self, a bit recently, and combined the insights gained with some savvy combining of complementary offensive and defensive strategies to produce a team that could beat another good team on a night that it shot only 33%, and to produce a team that could shoot much better against even better teams when that was needed? Maybe?

Either way, there is no need to assume, or inject, the concept of a "narrative" here.

That clarified, you appear to be misinterpreting the meaning of what NOVA accomplished with 33 percent shooting.

Their combination of offense and defense apparently made them (again without resort to narrative) so tough that they were able to beat TTech, a solid team that gave many good teams fits, EVEN when Nova shot ONLY 33 percent. Isn't that the accurate insight, when the talk about narratives is paired away?

The very fact of Nova's modest 33% shooting you sight refutes your own logic IMHO.

It appears to me that NOVA held such a huge edge in the number of proficient three point shooters and such a huge edge in inter-reinforcing offensive and defensive philosophies, given that edge in three point shooters, that it could find enough shooters that could make enough shots to win shooting only 33%, on another night when a team with only 2-3 trifectates might have fallen to 25%, because there just weren't any other trifectates to resort to.

I lack hard statistics for the following assertion, so I will couch it anecdotally: in my experience, often when teams that depend heavily on a particular kind of offensive productivity are denied that kind of offensive productivity, they are beaten by better, equal, and not infrequently by lesser teams, especially in the Carney. We see it in the early round upsets. A lesser team shoots lights out and a better team shoots under its average in its preferred scoring mode (i.e., inside, or outside scoring), and that combines with substandard FT performance (or a lack of fouls called generating below average FTAs) to yield an upset.

And, regardless, NOVA being beaten by TTech would hardly have been classified as an upset. TTech was pretty good, despite Self showing everyone how to beat TTech in KU's rematch with TTech that lead them to be much less successful than they had been earlier in the season after that exposure.

Here is the thing: Nova had sooooo many > 39% trifectates, including two that force opponents to have to pull their bigs at least 23 feet from the basket, that Nova was, game in and game out, able to:

a.) find at least a couple guys that could make a decent percentage from trey (remember 33% is about 50% standardized to 2-point shooting);

b.) shoot a large enough number of treys relative to its opponent to offset its own relative inaccuracy of 33%; and

c.) erode the opponents defensive rebounding (something TTech relied heavily on) by pulling its bigs out of the paint to guard Nova's bigs threatening to take any open look treys.

Jun 20, 2018 07:26 PM #142

🤦‍♂️Ok let me chose a different wording. it seems as though your position is Nova is unbeatable. I pointed out a game they should’ve lost. It seems as though you are saying shoot more threes and you automatically win. I’m saying that isn’t always he case. Like in 08 for KU Nova got lucky and won on a bad shooing night otherwise we are talking up how wonderful Bill Self is and how lucky Nova got to beat KU 2 years prior. (I believe that qualifies as a narrative shift; from Jay is the best to Bill is the best)

Maybe you said that but I can’t possibly read all you posted too busy at work. Cliff notes please.

Jun 20, 2018 07:51 PM #143

@dylans

According to Kenpom, Texas Tech's adjusted defense was 4th in the country. Texas Tech did to Nova what they did to most everyone - made them a below average offensive team. The difference was that even though Tech limited them on offense, Nova could dig in and get stops, too. Nova was a very balanced team by Kenpom standards - #1 in offense, #11 on defense.

Jun 20, 2018 08:14 PM #144

@justanotherfan Thanks! They didn’t just shoot threes! They are actually good at something else which is one of my points. The other being Nova was beatable, but they got lucky that Tech sucked that game. (I watched they missed a ton of wide open shots).