🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Silvio looked much better against Nova the first half than Doke did IMHO.

But Self went all in the final 20 with a guy with what appeared a weak knee, weak FT stroke, and according to Self’s post game no experience “guarding out there” apparently unable to guard the trey stripe.

Silvio appeared perhaps the strongest hope we had the second half and Self did the sit’n’fergit with him the final 20, while Doke appeared overwhelmed.

Silvio appeared physically able to have hustled out to the corner and denied those uncontested threes KU gave up, if simply allowed to play straight M2M on Paschal.

It didn’t take a defensive read to follow Paschall every where he went and get a hand in his face. Heck, Mitch could have done it also. The only KU big that apparently couldn’t have was Doke. So: what was Self thinking?

What gave with playing Doke a full monte the second half, when Self thought in post game he could not guard him outside, and appeared unable to score or rebound or rim protect productively inside?

Silvio made mistakes the first half, but he could actually stay on the floor with their big guys that first half.

I have waited a long time to post this to see if any one else picked up on this peculiarity of Self not playing Silvio the second half when Doke was taking a beating.

Another question: why didn’t Self go double post and play Silvio AND Doke at least 5 minutes each half?

Silvio or Mitch it appear now and then to have been better fits than what Self tried.

Sometimes Self makes mistakes. Weird I know.

@jaybate-1.0 Silvio physically appeared to be the better fit, but he gets lost on defense every other possession. My guess would be that the defense needed against Nova was different than we had played all year (particularly when their big guys were hitting). I doubt he was ready for that and it appeared our whole team was out of position most of the night.
Our biggest offensive advantage should have been Doke but that didn't pan out for whatever reason. Sometimes coach will hit the wrong buttons and sometimes you just get outplayed. I think both happened here particularly in the first half.

@Barney But don't you think that our biggest, most obvious, defensive disadvantage was also Doke? I mean, everyone and their brother knew it heading into the game. Heck, Self experienced back 2012 when he could not keep Withey and TRob on the floor against MU's small lineup. He had to take one out because we couldn't defend properly.

You said, "My guess would be that the defense needed against Nova was different than we had played all year (particularly when their big guys were hitting). I doubt he was ready for that and it appeared our whole team was out of position most of the night." You are correct. We weren't ready for it. Which is fine. That's what in game adjustments and preparation are all about.

I don't fault Self for starting Doke, and seeing how things played out initially. That's who we are. But when you get a swift answer, you have to respond. I understand Self thought Doke, offensively, could help get us back in the game.

Remember the old YMCA defense? You have to guard your man? Sometimes the most simplistic solutions are worth considering. When rotations, and help, and the complexities of real M2M defense are hurting you, the simple act of sticking your nose in the chest of the offensive player has great merit and tracking him, as @jaybate-1-0 was referencing. It's not perfect. But I can assure you that "shootaround" open three pointers are much worse.

The biggest item that got exposed was that Doke was incapable of guarding on the perimeter. The biggest fallacy is that Nova got up by their 15-18 margin and then we played even. That's the ballad of a loser. That's what a Big 12 lackey would say when we jump on them early. Who even thinks like that? Losers. The guy that lost. The apologist. Oh, we lost the Patriots 42-17, but we outscored them in the second half. Loser.

In CBB, the game is volatile. When down, you have to help create the volatility. Staying even is losing. We did nothing to shift the needle, to upset the status quo, to attack -- after we were down. The game was far, far from over at 22-4. In fact, how many of us would have been nervous UP 22-4 with so much time left on the clock?

I was also disappointed that we didn't see the famous Bill Self junk defenses he's used to help win games in the past. I mean, if Wooden could do it to beat Houston and Elvin Hayes in the Final Four, why not Kansas? Of course, Nova was a multiheaded monster. But then again, a little diamond and one, triangle and two -- you never know. It's going down swinging.

And to @jaybate-1-0's final two lines, MIX IT UP.

Or try this -- at the 10 minute mark of the second half, an all out, bust your tails, full court press (not every time, but a great majority); go man trap full court on a missed shot when you can; or the Okie State 2-2-1 3/4 court special; spice in a 1-3-1 hard charging, trapping defense on the defensive end. In this scenario, Garrett would have been useful, with Silvio or Mitch. No Doke.

It was a desperate time. It was life or death. And we didn't resort to desperate measures. But I guess we died with our boots on. That's nice. I'd just rather not die, and I'd rather go down knowing I used every weapon I had to avoid it.

@HighEliteMajor I agree with most everything you wrote there. I was truly mystified Mitch didn't even get a sniff. I am sure Self would do many things different if given a chance. I also think when a team is on it is hard to turn the tide. In the past Self would have muddied up the game but this years team didn't seem to have the right mix for that. This team certainly got better defensively, but it was never the typical KU team that could turn it up and get stops for several minutes in a game. I also think the doubling inside was a big mistake when there was no real inside threat, that made no sense to me.
Still a great year for a team that I think overachieved.

@Barney Personally, I think Self thought that his best option was to just keep doing what the team normally did. That is reasonable too. That we have cut leads before, CBB can shift on a dime, etc. Just some hindsight hypothesizing. Heck, we could have lost by 30 doing some of that stuff. It would have been more risky. He probably just determined it was the best chance to get back in the game -- doing what we do. But dying is dying.

BShark said:

Sometimes Self makes mistakes. Weird I know.

I don’t find mistakes weird.

I find not making obvious adjustments to mistakes weird.

@Barney

The first half yes.

The question is: during a half time, why couldn’t a hall of Fame coach just say, play straight up M2M. No tricks. No reads. Silvio, follow Paschal wherever he goes. Mitch, do the same, whenever Silvio needs a blow.

SIlvio was too green to guard away from the basket.

I will still say that I think with our limited roster Mitch Lightfoot was our only hope defending Nova's perimeter 5s.

HighEliteMajor said:

@Barney Personally, I think Self thought that his best option was to just keep doing what the team normally did.

It may be a little more layered than that.

Self appeared to concoct an unusual defense to compensate for Doke’s immobility and for Vick’s inability to cover Bridges alone. Self appeared to bet Paschal wouldn’t beat KU from three, if KU switched a combo guard on to him most of the time and occasionally left him open when the combo guard stayed and helped Vick with Bridges. It was a good gamble until Paschal shot lights out.

To give Self the benefit of the doubt for a moment, he probably gambled that it was better to have Paschal make some treys than for Bridges to run wild on Vick with an adjustment that left Vick more one on one and Paschal more closely guarded by a combo.

But Self had devised a defense that needed more practice than a day or so. As he said in post game, we devised some stuff that looked good in practice but didn’t work under game conditions. That translates to not enough practice to execute the reads for switching to keep Paschal from being left wide open.

But this switching was only necessary to keep Doke in for his dunking, which never materialized because of his knee and because of all the driving without dishing.

So: Silvio and Mitch should have shared the post the last 20, chased Paschal everywhere, left the offense to DG, Malik, Vick and Svi. And we should have been shooting a ton of treys to compensate for our trough game and to exploit Nova blowing cold the second half.

@BigBad

Guarding Paschal away from the basket was easy. Run out and get a hand in his face. They never ran action for him. And Paschal couldn’t put it on the deck. Guarding outside just takes speed and mobility. Silvio had that. So did Mitch. Either one would have been able, but with Silvio you get offensive rebounding which we also desperately needed in order to get more FGAs to come back.

@jaybate-1-0 I mentioned this in another thread a while back .. how about Duke's defense they ran on us? Kind of a match-up, guard the line type zone, with four defenders, and then one protector near the hoop. After seeing that from Duke, I thought that would be a nice fit against Nova. Creative. And particularly with one major M2M liability in Doke.

jaybate 1.0 said:

BShark said:

Sometimes Self makes mistakes. Weird I know.

I don’t find mistakes weird.

I find not making obvious adjustments to mistakes weird.

Self is frequently stubborn.

@BShark

Stubbornness is a double-edged sword for sure.

@jaybate-1.0 In some instances it has served him well. And of course, he has had a lot of success in general.

@HighEliteMajor

Yes, it would have been a good idea. Leaving trey shooters unattended was less so.

I keep coming back to Self’s demeanor after the game. It seemed so unlike him. No one else seems to have noticed anything unusual, however.

@jaybate-1.0 His demeaner reminded me a bit of VCU, I don't believe he ever said it himself, but if memory serves it kind of leaked out some time later that the twins (and others) did not follow the scout and just thought their talent would prevail..

I think that by halftime Bill Self saw the writing on the scoreboard. If not then, by the 30 minute mark. He then opened his mind to the future, to 1918-19. Doke's weaknesses got exposed. Doke MUST return. DeSousa need not yet absorb such a scorching. I can't envision Mitch doing much in that contest. I hope to see Mitch get a red shirt if Doke returns. DeSousa will come back hungry and super focused. McCormack (sp?) will earn lots of minutes.

@REHawk I'm putting the o/u on McCormack's minutes at 5 per game if Doke comes back.

Doke at a minimum will be playing 20 minutes a game (if not more), Dedric I'd put at 25-30 minutes, Silvio even just as a garbage man is looking at 15 minutes and KJ in some capacity is playing at least 20 minutes a night imo and I would bet at least 15 are at the 4. I just don't see where his minutes come from if Doke is back and I don't think he is particularly D1 ready year one.

Long term I really like McCormack though. He's like a ++ version of Landen Lucas. Below the rim bruiser willing to do the dirty work.

A small part of me wondered during the game if Self wasn’t committed to Doke the second half having ceded defeat and letting Doke play in front of his mom
After all she went through to get here. Self commented before the game that there are some things more important than games.

Blown said:

A small part of me wondered during the game if Self wasn’t committed to Doke the second half having ceded defeat and letting Doke play in front of his mom
After all she went through to get here. Self commented before the game that there are some things more important than games.

Just stating facts!

Self left Doke in the second half against OU and we lost. Doke couldn't make free throws. Self left Doke in against Villanova and we lost. Doke couldn't guard.

@Blown I wondered about the pressure to play Doke for his mom also. It probably was not a huge factor but may have been a small one.

@Barney

I highly doubt a coach, any coach would sacrifice the rest of the team and a win just to have a player’s mom watch him play; keep in mind that all players families were likely there. On the other hand, the perception that he did could play well with some of the lesser prospects but perhaps not as much with the top prospects families.

Silvio’s mom travelled in from Angola. Maybe Bill was mad at Silvio and didn’t want him to play in front of his mom? Or maybe the moms didn’t have anything to do with it and Bill simply thought Dok gave Kansas the best shot to win.

@JayHawkFanToo I said a small factor. I am sure Bill thought Doke was our best option, many here do not agree, we will never now if playing different might have helped. KU might have gotten beaten buy 40 playing another way, who knows.

“We want to win the game, but is winning the game more important than to make sure there’s not a little distraction for Doke? Of course not.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article207345084.html#storylink=cpy ↗

May have been subliminal.

Anyone else wonder why Villanova shot 18 (or 19) 3 pointers before we took our first one??

@nuleafjhawk

I do!!

I do!!

Gunman said:

Self left Doke in the second half against OU and we lost. Doke couldn't make free throws. Self left Doke in against Villanova and we lost. Doke couldn't guard.

We won many with him in late too, but your remark was worth noting.

nuleafjhawk said:

Anyone else wonder why Villanova shot 18 (or 19) 3 pointers before we took our first one??

This was the nub of it all.

@Blown interesting hypothesis.

I think some of it was they guarded the 3 line and worked to make us uncomfortable. We had shots but not free and clear shots in offensive rhythm.

But perhaps there was an element of we would beat them inside philosophy tied to a "they can't hit them all" line of reasoning.

nuleafjhawk said:

Anyone else wonder why Villanova shot 18 (or 19) 3 pointers before we took our first one??

@Bwag To my best memory, KU really didn't shoot well against any team that pressured the guards. Look at all of the big losses.

@Barney KU was an easy scout. Don't leave Svi open in the corner, pressure the guards 10ft past the three point line to disrupt the offense, and deny Devonte the ball as much as possible.

Here's what I think the plan was going Into the game. First 10 shots by KU all Dok - 8/10 for 16 points cause who's gonna stop him? And Nova hits their average as well and makes 4/10 threes for 12 points.

@Barney exactly true. Maybe the WVU games were an exception, but that then was something we spent significant practice time on beating.

@Bwag We really just pulled out the first 2 against WV.

@dylans

I was a big critic of the F4 loss, but Nova destroying Michigan (who played pretty good defense) gave me some perspective.

Pressuring players way outside he perimeter isn’t just a tactic. It’s a domination strategy. It’s like saying “we will win in the trenches” in football. Or “let’s play a 2-4-4 formation” in soccer. Ability to pressure like that out on the perimeter is a special thing that not every team could do. The 2008 team could do that, but they were Bartovik’s 2nd strongest team all time, behind one of the Kentucky teams.

I think it was Self just trying to buy some last second favor from the NCAA lol

@HighEliteMajor :”remember the YMCA defense”, ha...you just reminded some of us about the 2013 season...its ok...

I also agree that Doke should have played 5-10 minutes this game. Silvio should have played the entire game probably. Maybe put Mitch in there, but he can’t really drive it yet either.

We still lose in this game.