You can make a case that few players nationally present as large a contrast between current draft stock and likely 2018-19 college impact as Udoka Azubuike.
In terms of his draft profile, Azubuike appears to be a work in progress. Bill Self's big man is a proven 2-point-making machine and promising rim defender, but, ideally, he'd post higher rebound percentages at his size and on a team that gave him little if any competition for those boards. Indeed, whether it's rebounding or low-foul shot-blocking (or, in the best of all worlds, both), Azubuike will likely have to show the NBA something more to offset a lack of 3-point ability to date.
When it comes to what he can do for his college team, however, Azubuike's decision might loom larger than that of any other single player. A return to the Jayhawks would give KU a big lift in preseason polls. Self will have the talent to contend for still another Big 12 title either way, surely, but an early exit by Azuibuike would mean KU's replacing all five starters from 2017-18.
@ReggieKansas I agree he won’t be in the NBA next year, but I also really hope he’s back in a Kansas uniform and not overseas. He stated his goal was to be a two and done when he signed. I love his presence and hope a second year of playing for Self is in order.
Yes... Doke thought he'd be done in 2 years. But his injury really took him out of a year.
What isn't mentioned here is his poor FT shooting. NBA coaches play to win, and they won't hesitate to run "poke a Doke." I know most people think like me, that Doke can easily be decent at the line after learning proper mechanics. But we do know that some players just never get it... I'm sure Shaq and Wilt tried about everything and they both never figured it out.
@JayHawkFanToo Once again you make the logical choice that I would make as well. Like Romeo I don’t know where his heart is, but unlike Romeo I think KU has an excellent chance to land Dok’s services next year.
I agree all around about Doke. I love him to death, but his tools need sharpened. He's an odd challenge for the league. The disconnect between his shooting mechanics and his mental ability is his biggest challenge. In other words, his shooting game seems to be a head game for him. He definitely has the size for the league and can make some money, but he needs to take 1-2 more years to work on that one area of his short game. If he sharpens his basics and develops a 12-15 foot jump shot, a running baby hook, and those FTs, he will definitely improve his stock. I would take him much more seriously after his junior year. It will be fun watching him grow even more.
If he does force the issue, he will be a utility man. He will bounce around and never make much of an impact. I wish he would talk with JoJo.
IMO Doke is not an NBA player. Skill is vastly more important than size in the modern NBA.
If Doke stays, can he learn to guard the corner trey?
If Doke goes, can he learn to shoot FTs as a professional?
@jaybate-1-0 And the odds on Doke being able to bang down that 12 footer? Long odds, I would bet.
The size thing mentioned above is key. Size can overwhelm. Skill inside always has value. That's his game. Lethality around the hoop can find him a roster spot I would imagine (I say that, of course, understanding that my NBA acumen is lacking, so I may be talking out of my backside).
@HighEliteMajor Doke is a much less complete player than Thomas Robinson was when he left and T-Rob couldn't stick. Doke right now would go undrafted and would struggle to make a roster in Summer League because he can't rebound for his size or guard away from the basket.
He has to do both those things much better than he currently does to have any shot at sticking in the league.
@Texas-Hawk-10 I wonder how much he can really improve in those aspects? This season, of all seasons, when the competition for rebounds was at a minimum (as I saw one commentator mention), Doke couldn't get big numbers on the boards. And his God given gifts don't translate learning to "guard the corner trey" as @jaybate-1-0 mentioned. Hope he's back.
@HighEliteMajor I don't think Doke can but at this point, I don't think Doke should come back either though. Playing next to Dedric would only further expose Doke's weaknesses and hurt his draft stock more.
Wayne Selden needs to be his role model at this point. Left early knowing he would go undrafted, but still at the peak of his draft stock. Then he went on and made a team and has become a key piece for the Grizzlies.
Doke needs to stay in the draft, know he's not likely to be drafted and hope he can make a team during the Summer League.
Doke's draft stock will not be higher than it is right now which is unfortunate because Doke would likely have been a top 5 pick 15 years ago.
HighEliteMajor said:
(I say that, of course, understanding that my NBA acumen is lacking, so I may be talking out of my backside).
QHOF (Qualification Hall of Fame)
:-)
Idk? Dok is the same age as bol bol and would be ranked in the top 10 of this years hs recruiting class if he were still in hs. He is far from a complete product. There is still plenty of room for improvement imo. He needs to come back and work on his conditioning and the rebounds will come.
I think I remember Ellis gaining like 8" on his standing vertical between his sophomore and junior season?
@Statmachine Michelson was also reported to have made big vertical gains
Anybody here take the “Jump” class at KU? I had a couple friends who did. It sounded brutal. Lunges every class until you puked...several times. For a semester, but afterwards he gained well over a foot to his vertical leap.
Doke is a smart kid and has shown he can learn and he is a hard worker. There is no reason why he could not improve if he comes back for an extra year.
Per Seth Thomas tweet from the Combine at about 12:15: “Udoka Azuzike just airballed a free throw. So there’s that.” Yes, Seth mis-spelled (airballed?) Doke’s name.
Sounds like Doke May be back... đź‘Ť
@Gorilla72 Isn't it funny how careful you have to be to have credibility when making fun of someone? This guy now gets to be laughed at, too!
Y'all know that size, speed, skill and desire have nothing to do with anyone's decision to go to the NBA, right?
It's one thing - the almighty dollah.
I heard an interesting comment on the radio yesterday from Chris Stone, and NBA draft analyst or something. He said that everyone should remember that all players testing the waters or at the combine, do not want to come back to school. They'd rather leave. I guess I never really thought of it that way. That guys were ready to move on, and the only reason they don't, is because they may not have a good enough job.
HighEliteMajor said:
That guys were ready to move on, and the only reason they don't, is because they may not have a good enough job.
That is 90% of working Americans too. LOL
That is really a no brainer. Given the choice of going back to college to a very structured system and still have to attend classes or make even the minimum NBA salary for a player with no experience which is now about $600K which one would you take?
nuleafjhawk said:
Y'all know that size, speed, skill and desire have nothing to do with anyone's decision to go to the NBA, right?
It's one thing - the almighty dollah.
Man, i wish that were true. I'm seriously lacking in size, speed, skill, and desire but really want tons of $. Somehow i still don't think i can decide to go to the NBA.
@JayHawkFanToo What I mean is that they affirmatively don't want to return to college. Best time of many folks' lives. I could see a kid saying I can't pass up the money, but I still really want to stay in college. He was focused on the fact that they want to leave.
Dok is out here struggling at the NBA Combine they gonna send him back to KU
@ReggieKansas Is he looking lost out there against more athletic bigs who can shoot from the perimeter? Looking out of shape? One dimensional? Thanks for the account!
@HighEliteMajor Considering the money, opportunities for parties, routine high-level social interaction, and the availability of groupies in their lives, there really isn't much that college can offer that isn't available ten times over to a new pro.
And they don't have any 7:30 a.m. Calculus classes with, my favorite memory of all, a 3 hour Friday night Final exam.
Udoka Azubuike: Although he impressed with his 7-7 wingspan, Azubuike's lack of feel and skill level was very apparent despite his solid production. The Jayhawk doesn't appear to fit in the modern game at this stage as he's not much of a rim protector or switch defender.
Self said without qualification that no one on last year's team could guard Dedric Lawson.
Of course, Self was promoting Dedric to make sure he stayed with the program.
But even removing the puffery about Dedric, with 6-9 230 Dedric starting his coming out party, and with 6-9 245 De Sousa maybe coming back, both those guys can shoot and make free throws and dunk at will also, from two feet. And they will almost certainly be better rebounders. De Sousa almost certainly will become an equivalent rim protector. And both guys can run the floor as well as Doke. Doke's only edge is his 280 pounds, but even that needs to come down to about 260 for him to play intensely for 40 minutes.
I've been a backer of Doke, but he is in serious danger at KU of becoming a backup, if he returns.
Doke has finally been exposed for not being a footer, as I speculated last season that he was not.
(Note: Any KU player that wears long hair up is almost certainly two inches shorter than his listed height, and maybe 3 inches shorter.)
Doke appears 6-10 max, and despite being able to run the floor as well as any big I've seen at KU, since Manning, he cannot rebound (probably because his arm injury his freshman season limits his motion and strength at locking down on the boards, or limits his leverage to push for position) and he cannot make free throws. This makes him a situational substitute on most teams, not a cornerstone.
If Doke stays, he and Lightfoot, or he and KJ Lawson could be the back ups, if DeSousa returns.
Doke and his advisors apparently realize this.
They also apparently realize he is NOT a hot NBA property at this time.
Thus, they are apparently making the best of a difficult situation. They are testing the NBA waters to see if some team might view him as a long term project, which would be the optimal situation for him.
If no NBA team wants to take him on as a project, then he has to come back and risk DeSousa getting cleared and taking his spot. Doke is not nearly as good as DeSousa in terms of fundamentals. By this season, DeSousa will likely be able to play circles around Doke, unless Doke has miraculous off season transformation with shooting and rebounding.
And Self has already been pretty clear that he is in love with Dedric, until Dedric fails to deliver (if Dedric fails, which he probably won't).
Dedric + De Sousa = Doke as backup.
A vaguely similar situation arose in 2008, when the big Russian, who had started for three years ran out of knees his senior season and became a back up for Shady and D-Block.
The third big slot is a good 20 minute position and it worked out well for the Big Russian, because he got to go back home and make solid money.
But Doke and his posse have NBA money visions--not going to play in Russia visions.
They need to cash in now, if they can find an NBA team looking for a project, or else they are going to have to down size their visions next season.
Still, what are the chances De Sousa leaves the media black hole he has been placed in to ride out the Fibbee investigation?
No one but the Feds can say, or De Sousa would either be off the roster, already, or he would be chattering like a magpie at hyping interviews for his big season upcoming.
So: again, Doke and his people are doing the smart thing.
Try to pedal an NBA project, until they know whether De Sousa will come back.
For sure starters next year at KU
PG - Devon Dotson
SG - Quentin Grimes
PF - Dedric Lawson
Those are the three guarantees. The rest is up in the air. KJ Lawson could start. Charlie Moore could start. Dave McCormack could start. De Sousa could start. There's a limited chance that Agbaji or Lightfoot could start. Heck, I could probably dream up a scenario or two where Sam Cunliffe starts.
The question for next year's team is how they can guard, because they should be good offensively.
Don’t count on De Sousa. From all the reporting he won’t be available—either it will be uncertain if he is clear to play or he will have moved on. I would love for him be available but the odds seem very much against it being so.
SouthernHawk said:
Don’t count on De Sousa. From all the reporting he won’t be available—either it will be uncertain if he is clear to play or he will have moved on. I would love for him be available but the odds seem very much against it being so.
If he was going to move on wouldn't he had done so by now?
He would have hired an agent by now.
Everything I hear and read says he is coming back. Even though all indications say he is coming back and he did this to learn what he needed to do over the next 12 months... you just never know what will happen. He is one phone call away from ending his D1 days....
DeSousa’s one semester in college ate up a year of eligibility, but does it qualify him for the draft? I think he has to wait one more year to be draft eligible. 🤷‍♂️
@bcjayhawk Thanks, that’s what I thought, but I also think it’s why he hasn’t hired an agent. No need yet. He just as well ride it out for a year.
The NCAA cleared De Sousa before he played a single game at KU and it has been a while since the FBI indictment came out and the NCAA has had plenty of time to review his situation and determine if there was a violation; the fact that NCAA has not acted bides well for De Sousa. I would think that KU has done its due diligence and if there was an issue that could prevent him from coming back he would have been advised to look at other opportunities overseas or potentially the G League since he is not eligible for the Draft and nothing like this ha happened, as far as we know.
I believe DeSousa will be back and worse case he is suspended for a few games like Diallo was.
As far as Doke, his strengths and weaknesses have been in display at the combine. Solid under the basket with great size and athleticism but no offensive game outside 5 feet from the basket, poor FT form and underdeveloped basketball IQ, lack of positional awareness and below average rebounding for his size; most can be corrected or improved with one additional year of college. Two things work against him, one his current skills do not translate well to the modern/current NBA style of play and two, at the combine he has to heavily rely on other players to get him the ball on offense, something that is not happening since the other players are trying to impress themselves and have little interest in helping someone else.
Best possible outcome for Doke appears to be a two way contract that send him to the G League with a chance to move up to the top level on an as needed basis. Absent that, I believe he comes back to KU.
Pay back the money, run a few stairs? I'm good.
@JayHawkFanToo I haven't seen anything to disuade me that the worst case is still that he is just straight up ruled ineligible and not allowed to play. The sum of money he was allegedly paid is higher than the Diallo's case. Even if he gets the same ruling, he would have to pay the money back and we don't even know if he can afford to do so. I know I wouldn't have been able to pay $20,000+ back as a college student.
I think you are reading too much into the inaction by the NCAA as well. It is being reported that they haven't done anything yet as they want to let the FBI investigation run its course. I also haven't seen any news that the FBI has even shared its evidence with the NCAA, so it would be hard for them to investigate until that happens.
I want to be as optimistic as you are but every time I think about the scenario, I can't see how Silvio doesn't get a suspension unless the FBI evidence isn't substansial or it is withheld from the NCAA. Alternatively, this could blow up so much that they can't afford to suspend everyone caught up in it.
@JayHawkFanToo Some very good points , not much I can add to that , I too just believe that in Doke's case I think it might be hard at anytime for him in the NBA. - -I just think the NEW NBA - & style of play just doesn't fit him. - -Oh ya I'm sure someone will end up taking that chance and I hope they do.But I just think at best he will be another journeyman and very limited playing time - his foot speed and lack of outside game just makes him a bad fit.
As far as Silvio like I say I think you have brought up some pretty good points - -All I can do is hope. - -If someway we get Doke AND Desousa back and eligible - - - -LOOK OUT - - -game on
The Silvio situation is unique. The accusations come from the FBI. And there are many schools and coaches caught up in this. And we don't know if there are a lot more things to come.
One thing.... where are all the Nike busts? Nike makes up what, 85% of the American D1 market?
The Adidas dirt was uncovered first. It should then draw the feds into the entire situation, which is mostly a Nike market.
I am guessing that the feds have some level of communication with the NCAA, including some level of status concerning ongoing investigations.
I don't think it wise to compare this to the Diallo situation. The national spotlight is on this and the overwhelming message is that college basketball is dirty.
You are missing the main element of the issue. The money was given to his guardian, not to him, to have him go to Maryland. He did not want to go to Maryland and came to KU instead. This would appear to eliminate any type of involvement or conspiracy on Silvio’s part. I believe this is the same thing that happened with Cam Newton who did not miss a single game. I understand that loophole has been closed in football but I am not sure it has been in closed in basketball. The entire issue was handled without any KU involvement and this is apparently why KU was mentioned as a “victim” in the indictment and not as perpetrator of the alleged crime.
Doke has ZERO chance to defend the modern NBA pick and roll/pop iso players. He would also just be an average rim defender in the NBA.
I said all last year(before Silvio joined and Billy left), and I'm sticking to it we didn't have a single NBA player on our roster.
Kyle Korver Aug 29, 2008, 10:02 pm Overview:One of the game’s top spot up shooters. Pretty average in terms of strength, athleticism and wingspan for his position, but has good size for a shooting specialist. Has proven himself to be one of the most efficient spot up shooters in the NBA. Saw his minutes drop after being traded in 2008, but became much more efficient under Jerry Sloan. Possesses one of the purest strokes in the game. Not a factor in many other ways, but gives a better effort defensive and shows more hustle than most other specialists. Had a very nice four year career at Creighton. Improved his numbers in each of his collegiate seasons. Garnered the Missouri Valley Conference Most Valuable Player Award as a junior and senior. Has always been a dominant shooter, but was able to showcase some other skills on the collegiate level. Garnered a spot late in the second round as a shooting specialist and turned out to be a steal. Had a tremendously productive four year stint with the 76ers before being traded in his fifth year to the Jazz. Regarded as one of the game’s best specialists. Younger brothers Klayton, Kaleb, and Kirk have, are, or will be Division I basketball players. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kyle-Korver-3204/ ↗ ©DraftExpress
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kyle-Korver-3204/ ↗
Svi is your NBA player and could become every bit as good as Korver.
Svi and Korver have same height without shoes at combine. However Korver has a 6'9.5 wingspan to Svi's 6'4.75. And Korver struggles MASSIVELY to guard even with that length.
So wingspan determines if you are good enough for the NBA? Why even have the combine? Just go out and find the biggest wingspan guys on earth. They don't even have to know what basketball is.
Good article about Roy Hibbert and other NBA big men that hang around under the basket, and how the league has shifted away from them:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-the-nba-abandoned-roy-hibbert/ ↗
@Statmachine It's more important than height. It really defines your true size. Svi is a streaky shooter who is basically playing with a 2 guards size. At the 2 he needs some ability besides occasionally getting hot from outside. He isnt a creator, rebounder or defensive stopper. Very good college player but there is a reason he played 4 years in college.
Svi is much more similar to JJ Redick than Kyle Korver. Redick measured 6-4 without shoes at the combine in 2006, but had just a 6-3 1/4 wingspan. Redick is very much a system defender (moreso even than Korver) because he lacks the reach to be disruptive in the NBA at that end.
While it won't keep him from being effective in the NBA, Svi's wingspan will limit his ability to be an impact defender. He isn't quick enough to guard 1s and his wingspan will make it tough on him to guard the best wing players. Svi will guard the least threatening perimeter player for much of his NBA career. This also means it is critical that he become not just a 40% shooter in the NBA, but shoot it in the mid 40s from three, along with being able to initiate the offense because he is going to be a guy that will stick in the league based almost entirely on his offense.
BigBad said:
Very good college player but there is a reason he played 4 years in college.
JJ Redick and Kyle Korver both played 4 years in college and are both in the NBA. Both have ben in the rotation for over 10 years. What I am saying is Svi has just as much potential as either one of those 2.
I love Svi in a KU uniform. Heck I wish he would’ve redshirted his freshman year so we could enjoy him for one more peak season. However, I wouldn’t draft him if I was an NBA gm. He was a defensive liability in college; he will get abused in the NBA.
@JayHawkFanToo I don’t care for Bagley much either. But I see a lot more potential in Bagley than Svi.
Dok and Svi are both antiques in the nba. Not much room for a 2 guard, spot up shooter that can’t play D. Or a post that can’t shoot a 15 footer at the very least.
Maybe Bill did find his recruiting niche- nba potential with severe limitations.
Bagley is no slouch. He was ACC player and Rookie of the year and led the conference in scoring, rebounding and shooting percentage and broke a number of team and conference records and was consensus first team All American and Peter Newell big man of the year and a true 6’- 11” forward...and yet Svi played him well and kept him below his averages and had a great and critical rebound over him towards the end of the game that was the difference maker.
What I am saying is...don’t underestimate Svi’s defensive skills, he is smart and fundamentally solid with a good basketball IQ and above average shooting skill and will do well in the League. He was at the combine the previous year so his measurements are not a surprise and there was a fair amount of interest. He is a much better player now and likely will be drafted.
@JayHawkFanToo He will have to guard guards in the League not small forwards. So if Big12 teams can take it to KU thru Svi what will a nba team do?
He’s kinda like Tebow. Peaked in college.
I really hope Svi makes me eat my words. But since Brandon Rush couldn’t cut it, and he was better at everything than Svi, I have low expectations.
Rush had 8 years with NBA pay checks. I'd be shocked if Svi and Devonte had that combined.
@JayHawkFanToo has Bill Self mentioned how he think De Sousa will do next year? To me that's the most telling sign. At least in the selected quotes in this story, no mention of DeSousa where you would assume he would be mentioned
approxinfinity said:
@JayHawkFanToo has Bill Self mentioned how he think De Sousa will do next year? To me that's the most telling sign. At least in the selected quotes in this story, no mention of DeSousa where you would assume he would be mentioned
Yep. I made a thread about this. Had a similar thought about De Sousa. Self also didn't mention Mitch or Cunliffe so we can assume they are probably Deep Bench/cryo-iced.
Cryo-ice patent pending c/o @jaybate-1-0
I don't read much into it. The part of the talk that was reported in the story dealt primarily with the new players joining the team...and Garret. Also, when looking at POY candidates it is not difficult to see where Doke and Dedrick would be the logical candidates. Maybe by mid-season Silvio will be part of that talk but initially he will be playing behind Doke and Dedrick.
I have not read anything about Silvio getting an agent or leaving and at this time his only options other than KU are the G League and overseas. The NCAA will likely wait to see what happens with the FBI investigation since anything it does would be affect that case and, knowing how our system works and based on the apparent misbehavior by FBI agents, that case might take a long time before it sees a court room...if it gets that far.
Based on the above, I would say that Silvio will be playing for KU next season or worst case, he will do like Kanter and stay at KU but not play.
BShark said:
approxinfinity said:
@JayHawkFanToo has Bill Self mentioned how he think De Sousa will do next year? To me that's the most telling sign. At least in the selected quotes in this story, no mention of DeSousa where you would assume he would be mentioned
Yep. I made a thread about this. Had a similar thought about De Sousa. Self also didn't mention Mitch or Cunliffe so we can assume they are probably Deep Bench/cryo-iced.
Cryo-ice patent pending c/o @jaybate-1-0
Just keep in mind that cryo-icing can apparently happen for many different reasons.
Rock Chalk!
BigBad said:
I said all last year(before Silvio joined and Billy left), and I'm sticking to it we didn't have a single NBA player on our roster.
You make an pregnant observation.
It bears significant implication.
Why is a coach alleged by some to be an egregious cheater cheating to acquire less talented players than those so far not reputed to be cheating have on their rosters?
Put another way, how are coaches reputedly NOT alleged to be cheating, signing so many more talented players than Self?
Many, if not most coaches caught cheating (or having had plausible deniability about those cheating for them) in the past have been able to sign as much or more talent than those reputedly NOT cheating.
Are we to believe that Bill Self, who is some how brilliant enough to reach the Final Four without a single NBA grade player, is at the same time too stupid to cheat as effectively as other coaches in the past?
I am deeply puzzled by what is going on.
@JayHawkFanToo The loophole was closed for all NCAA sports as a bylaw to their general amateurism rules: https://static.lrbears.com/custompages/Compliance/BylawArticle12-Amateurism.pdf ↗
If you have any proof that basketball would be exempt for this bylaw, I would ask that you share it. It also doesn't matter what school orginized the payment. If someone or their family is paid by any party, they lose their amateur status.
It really seems think everyone is in a wait and see mode for what the FBI do next. I wouln't be surprised if we don't know if Silvio is playing or not until the first game of the season.
@et al
I suspect it is hard to interpret what is going on here with DaSousa largely because most involved in the investigation--investigators, prosecutors, defenders, alleged victims, so far unindicted folks, alleged perpetrators, alleged peripherally involved folks, etc.) still want it to be difficult to interpret.
We may just have to live with the confusion awhile longer.
Persons, especially professionals, incentivized to keep things confusing usually find ways to do so.
Is that an official NCAA document or just a generic set of rules about amateurism? If it is, can you please point out the relevant section or sections?
I remember reading that if the money was not paid to the athlete but to a guardian or agent without the athlete being aware then the case becomes a lot more complicated and the athlete would have good case to sue the NCAA. Remember his guardian was allegedly paid to steer Silvio to Maryland and Silvio wanted to go to KU without any inducement. The case would be against whoever paid the guardian and the guardian himself and Silvio should not be penalized for something it was done without his knowledge and against his specific wishes.
Much like patents, these type of regulations are not worth the paper they are written until a court affirms them or strikes them down. TTBOMK, this has not been tested in court. This all I have.
Most players got paid, it is not just elite 5* oads.