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Self pretty much slams the door here.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/23695976/kansas-jayhawks-quentin-grimes-plays-bill-self-usa-u18-national-team-trials ↗

"Lagerald and I talked at the end of the season, and it was a situation where he was going to do his best to prepare himself and put himself in position to stay in the draft," Self said Saturday. "And if he didn't stay in the draft, there was certainly the option for him to transfer.

"I haven't made a final decision on the situation, but the talk we had at the end of the season would be that he would go somewhere else if he decided to stay in school. That was something we talked about; we kind of agreed on that."

Self will be away from Lawrence until mid-June while he coaches the U-18 national team. When he returns to campus, he said he will sit down with Vick and figure out what's next.

"He should look into whatever he wants to do, or look into other schools or whatnot," Self said. "But there will be a point in time when I get back that I'm sure we'll sit and down and we'll visit and talk about the situation.

"But I have not planned on having him back since the season was over."

Vick's mother told the Kansas City Star that the G League was the most likely option for her son.

@BShark crack in that door? Just being honest and polite?

Yep. This is not surprising. I am do not know why anyone thought there was a chance for him to come back. Like I said in another thread Self does not want him back.

Nick Schwerdt
‏ @nick_schwerdt
2h2 hours ago

It's more likely that Udoka develops a lethal three point shot than it is that Vick returns for his senior season. That relationship is over.

I know there was a lot of ugliness with the kid, but I'll remember his amazing athleticism and appreciate what he gave to the program.

I agree wissox.

Just so there is no doubt this thread wasn't to slander him or anything just posting Self's comments because they pretty much shut the door.

@BShark

I don't think you can hold Self or Vick to anything they said fresh off their Final Four loss.

Much has happened since then.

And you have to look at both of these people and what their objectives were when these comments were said.

Lagerald was thinking NBA. He needed to sound as optimistic as possible.

Self was thinking recruiting. He needed to sound as sure as possible that he would have plenty of minutes to dish out and part of that was using the knowledge that Lagerald was gone.

I can see this going either way right now. It appears Lagerald's best option is to return and be our most-experienced player coming back!

And Lagerald coming back appears to be Bill's best option, too, but who knows what he has brewing with that one remaining scholarship.

Also... Bill has a feel for chemistry and if Lagerald will fit with this very different team. Attitude is big here and I don't think any of us in here really know how things are with Lagerald.

@drgnslayr Now I can't really comment on this w/o getting into speculation but Vick almost wasn't on the team this last season from some things I have heard/read.

@BShark

Yes.... there was some issues. I know.

And without those issues I'd say he is a shoe-in to return.

But it may be in both Self and Vick's interest to have him return. The key is getting him to buy in 100% for his senior year.

Bill is a player's coach and pragmatic and a mature man. He'll always try to help out his players, even when they don't see eye-to-eye. But if Lagerald is having an attitude issue, then it puts our entire team at risk.

We just have to trust Bill on this one. I bet he would take him back if he's convinced Lagerald is 100% on board with one more year of Self-ball.

It’s a very young team. I’m thinking it may be a needed culture change.

My personal opinion, I don’t think Vick is a leader and it would be a travesty if the younger guys deferred to him. But if they didn’t he could be an asset as a shooter.

@dylans nothing to do w/Vick, can a leader be on the bench? I know Mitch did a good job w/doke when he was hurt and Silvio last year. He's definitely smart. I also think the pt needs to be your leader. I bet Charlie has hi B.B. iq. Can't wait to see how it plays out, I want Silvio, like that big kid! Talking about just being on the team.⛹🏾‍♂️

This supports what Self said earlier this offseason about Vick not wanting to step up and be a leader.

Just because a player will be a senior doesn't mean they should automatically be a leader. Just because a player is a freshman doesn't mean they should defer. It isn't in Vick's personality. He is quiet by nature. He doesn't want to be out front.

That doesn't mean he should come back, but its a misconception that seniors are "leaders".

@justanotherfan Perry Ellis was quiet as well, but he was still a leader when he was a junior and senior. There are different types of leadership that are effective, but when the lone senior on a team has zero interest in being any kind of leader, that's not a good thing and Vick has no interest in being any kind of leader which is why Self essential pushed him out of the program.

@justanotherfan not “are” but “should be” and if they don’t get it by then...

I wonder if Vick were a potential vulnerability during some of the FBI/NBA investigation that Self and KU decided to distance themselves from?

He found his way to KU through Larry Brown, if I recall correctly. And Larry left his comeback at SMU the hard way. Maybe there was some uncertainty about the Vick-Brown legacy and in the midst of what may have seemed like a highly risky environment by the end of the season, they distanced and maybe now more is known about the investigation and Vick is now maybe thought to be no longer a risk?

@dylans Vick is not capable, just not wired that way. Self knows that. Remember when DTae said “coach, you want me to tell Perry what to do?” He may have some other habits that Coach may not want the new guys around.

I'm thinking Coach has tired of Vick? In fact I think Coach was reminding Vick it's time to move on. I personally like Vick but lets be real the kid is showing he'll never take that next step, at least not at KU under Coach. Vick is very talented kid, but he just isn't leaving up to what he can really do. I'm thinking it's time for Vick to move on.

@jaybate-1.0 This all started well before the FBI stuff came to light.

There have been a handful of guys that just don't work out. Nadir Tharpe comes to mind.

@Texas-Hawk-10 @dylans

Mitch Lightfoot will be a senior in 2019-20. Should he be the "leader" of that team? I would say no. Not because he doesn't have habits that people should emulate. He certainly does. He just doesn't seem like he is a good fit as the leader of that team.

Should Perry have been the "leader" of his team, or would that group have been better off letting Frank grab hold of that mantle? It was much more within Frank's personality to be that type of person than it was Perry. Perry was a great example of what it means to be a Jayhawk, but he wasn't really a leader. That title would have been more appropriate on a guy like Frank, who clearly took that mantle the very next year.

Wanting seniors to always be "leaders" is silly. It forces guys to get outside of themselves and potentially do more than they are able to do. Frank Mason was the type of guy that could have led as a freshman or sophomore because of his personality. Perry was a good example, but he wasn't necessarily a "leader" in all of those aspects. It is very difficult for quiet, reserved guys to be "leaders".

Look at someone like Alex Gordon for the Royals. He's the longest tenured Royal. By all accounts he's a good locker room guy, etc. But he's also a kind of private guy. Who were the leaders on the World Series teams? Guys like Hosmer, Moose, Perez and Dyson - guys that by their personality drew people in. Even a guy like Lorenzo Cain that was one of the most productive players on the team wasn't necessarily a "leader." Asking him to carry that mantle may have disrupted his focus. Same with Gordon. I have wondered to some degree if that has affected Gordon the last couple of years, trying to be a "leader" rather than just being a productive player.

@justanotherfan I think you and I have very different definitions of leader. Mitch was a leader last season as a sophomore why wouldn’t he be a leader as a senior?

@justanotherfan I agree w/you, almost 100%. But, I do think Mitch can be a leader, and I think he's proved it by helping out out doke and Silvio while they were on the bench and at practice. This was mentioned in past articles. I'm not sure if a leader can be on the bench though, that is my question. Perry was a quiet leader by how he carried himself off the court, we need those kind of guys too. DG has been the best leader we've had in a long time. I have no idea who can do that next year, hopefully it's the pt guard. Grimes sounds like a leader.

BShark said:

@jaybate-1.0 This all started well before the FBI stuff came to light.

As I have noted many times, within just a few years after Naismith invented the game in a YMCA in Springfield, MA, theater promoters, fight promoters, and gamblers reputedly were largely in control of staging and rigging the sport in the large cities of the East Coast.

So: yes, "This all started well before the FBI stuff came to light."

Rock Chalk!

@dylans

Mitch may have been a type of "leader" on last year's team, but the "leader" of last year's team was Devonte Graham, just like Devonte was a type of "leader" the year before, but the "leader" of that team was Frank Mason.

Will Mitch take that mantle now, or will the "leader" be Dedric or someone else? Will Grimes or Dotson take that role over? Maybe Charlie Moore?

Vick is more comfortable as "one of the guys". That's an important role, too. After all, everyone can't be a "leader".

@justanotherfan I seriously doubt Mith ever becomes the lead dog, but he will absolutely be a leader on the team.

Remember Mitch showed the stache’ the door just by demonstrating the effort it takes to be a winner. That’s the kind of leadership I look for in him. Someone to keep the guys honest in practice.

@dylans Mitch had 22 pts in scrimmage today, 6, 3's.😳. I know, just a scrimmage. From the video, he did look bigger.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@dylans Mitch had 22 pts in scrimmage today, 6, 3's.😳. I know, just a scrimmage. From the video, he did look bigger.

Mitch def fooled around today. I'm going to try to make it to the open scrimmage tomorrow.

Looks like Coach Self opened the door ↗ just a bit...

I think if Vick accepts a bench role there's a spot for him

@JayHawkFanToo That's not how I read it. We will see though.

I don't know. Based on all of the info, my bet is Self doesn't want Vick anywhere near this group. I will be very surprised -- shocked -- if Self has Vick back. His prior comments were perhaps the most definitive I've heard regarding any player. The comments by Self strike me more as simply public courtesy toward Vick's mother, who has said all the right things in the media to this point.

@HighEliteMajor

I think Self is a wise man. Yes, I believe what you say is true, but Self is always going to leave his door open for players, including players he has had trouble with. Remember Self's history of taking troubled players. He likes the challenge and probably gets his biggest satisfaction when he "flips" a player away from a bad attitude and grasps Self-ball.

The pivotal point in this, "is Vick ready to mature (as a person)?"

A mature Vick now will see that he has been his own worst enemy at times in his history at Kansas. Everything from off-court antics to not embracing Self-ball.

Vick could become a monster player this year, if he suddenly wised up and matured! He would probably become one of Self's all-time biggest flip and would give Bill quite some satisfaction in accomplishing it!

And here is what many people miss... Self doesn't want this outcome for himself. He wants it for Vick!

This is where players need to buy in. Self is there for THEM, not the other way around! And yes, I know Self makes a ton of money and has rock star status. His main satisfaction in his career is not the money or the fame... it is flipping kids around to the right thinking so they can go out and be successful in life! This is what few people know about Bill!

@drgnslayr you have that exactly right!

@drgnslayr hope so.

@HighEliteMajor hope @drgnslayr has it right. Sure be interesting to get a full, inside view from all perspectives on this. I agree, comments by all parties - Self & Vick's mom - were laden with back story.

We want commitment from players to our program, would like to see that same commitment by program to the players.

From my years in the athletic dept, I'm not so naive to know that many of these relationships are "business". Know that there were situations where certain players were subject to pressure to leave to open up scholarships where program didn't want to do cut them openly.

@drgnslayr - I think you nailed it. Players have to buy in. Players have to do it his way, the right way. This could easily be a setting of clear, concise ground rules if Self is to permit the return. And make not mistake, Bill is making the decision here -- at least that's what I see. I heard the audio, and Self's tone further emphasizes that to me. I'd be interested in what others thought of how he sounded. To me he sounded as if it was a remote possibility.

Here's Self's full quote.

"I have visited with Lagerald very briefly, and his mother. At some point in time we'll talk, but I told him I was going to get back from here before we'd have a chance to get together," Self said. "So at some point in time, hopefully in the near future, we'll visit. But nothing as of now has changed in my mind. We like Lagerald, and certainly the thought was, when he declared, is that his time at KU would be done either way," Self said. "That's something that I'll visit with him and his mother about, but at this point in time, it hasn't been decided, nor has he told us positively or whatever. I just think he wants to be able to sit down with us and go over future options and if there are possibly any here. So we'll see what happens with that, but no hurry."

Self was asked to clarify whether or not the door to a potential Vick return at KU was "completely shut."

"I don't know about the term 'completely shut.' I guess not. We're going to talk, so I guess it's not completely shut, but we'll see how that goes," Self said. "We recruited with the idea of him not being here. We signed a young man late with the idea of him not being here. So there's some things that we'd have to certainly talk about because that was obviously something that he felt comfortable with early on and he may still feel the same way. But I think we owe it to each other to at least sit down and visit. We've been through too much together, three years, and have had quite a bit of success. I think we definitely need to do that."

@HighEliteMajor

I agree. Like i said in my post above, the door might have been shut before but Coach Self openedit just a little bit, whether some thing happens is another issue.

The Summer Leagues will start in a couple of week and a decision will likely come before then since Vick not coming back to KU means either the Summer League (more likely) or a transfer and sit one year (less likely).

Hmmm, WHY do I just get this feeling that after all the dust has settled , and the conversations done - -when it all over and the air has cleared - -WHY does my gut tell me we will see LaGerald back at Ku for his Senior year?

jayballer73 said:

Hmmm, WHY do I just get this feeling that after all the dust has settled , and the conversations done - -when it all over and the air has cleared - -WHY does my gut tell me we will see LaGerald back at Ku for his Senior year?

Delusions? :thinking:

BShark said:

jayballer73 said:

Hmmm, WHY do I just get this feeling that after all the dust has settled , and the conversations done - -when it all over and the air has cleared - -WHY does my gut tell me we will see LaGerald back at Ku for his Senior year?

Delusions? :thinking:
world this
More like heat stroke mowing the lawn today and then coming in and reading in the Journal World this

The heat has been brutal here lately that's for sure.

@jayballer73

if and it is a big IF he comes back he will be on a very short leash or probationary status.

BShark said:

The heat has been brutal here lately that's for sure.

yes sir. - -Although that was a pretty nice rain we got yesterday almost like 2 solid hours of fairly decent rain

JayHawkFanToo said:

@jayballer73

if and it is a big IF he comes back he will be on a very short leash or probationary status.

personally I don't care one way or another. - like you say IF then cool he might be able to help some - with some 3 pt shooting , BUT does he become a cancer to the rest of the team - -continuity? - --- - the only reason I even possibly sniff is just the wording of Self saying that he is STILL going to sit down with him and discuss options I just don't know - but yet my little well not little Jayhawk belly says - - - DON'T BE SURPRISED. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

So does everyone think our chances of winning a national title increase with Vick or decrease?

SkinnyKansasDude said:

So does everyone think our chances of winning a national title increase with Vick or decrease?

Doesn't move the needle much imo.

@SkinnyKansasDude Hurts player development. These new guys need game minutes.

@SkinnyKansasDude

A returning 30+ mpg player from a Final Four team with high upside can only help. KU has now a number of quality players at all positions so his contribution is somewhat diluted.

Why wouldn't you keep the guy? Self never said he was gone so l never felt he was. Whenever it has been final we hear "Joe Blow has decided to leave the program and pursue other avenues. We wish him the best. Joe's time here has been appreciated and we wish him the best."

I'll support any decision reached.

I said it weeks ago. I'd like him back. Doesn't mean he's coming back. But I'll enjoy the show. He's fun to watch.

@Gunman “Lagerald had a really good year for us,” Self said in a release. “He started out so hot and finished strong. I believe the time is right for him to move on, explore his options as a professional and see what develops. We won a lot of games with Lagerald over the last three years and appreciate everything he’s done for Kansas and our basketball program. We are 100 percent supportive of his decision and wish him the very best in whatever path this takes him.”

Man it seems a lot of people have soured on Vick , after he said he was moving on --- didn't see them as sour when he was playing. - -The kid has a right to change his mind - this is one of the reasons they give choices of hiring an agent or not, so they have an option.

Again to me either way is ok. - - Yet if he comes back , I'll welcome him back with open arms instead of the Why the hell did Coach take him back. - We can use experience - -any experience - -- played a lot of games - experienced from the final four and two other years of NCAA tournament experience - -sure not saying he is a savior but dam - he can't hurt that much.

On the other hand - if he wants to go G league then no sour grapes from me - -hope nothing but the best for him and his kid or kids - either way is fine.- -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@HighEliteMajor
Forgot about that release. Maybe just couldn't believe it was a true. Thanks for the reminder.

Not knowing the whole story and how polished the new pieces are l would take him back or keep him whatever is the correct verbage.

@jayballer73 @Gunman I think this is really the ultimate “trust Self” moment. This seems very similar to the Tharpe situation. Self has a clear understanding of the “why” here — why isn’t Vick being invited back with open arms despite high talent, a likelihood of better production and an open scholarship? He’s better than Tharpe by a good ways. Wouldn’t the bet on a senior be better than the bet on a freshman? Especially for Self?

Of course. But that’s only part of the story. There is more at play here.

Thus the hesitancy by some in the peanut gallery. We see Self’s reaction and handling of this situation and it causes us great pause.

Without hearing Self’s words the other day, and back in early April, I would view this differently. Self’s words have influenced my opinion.

I think Self should go with his gut here. Whatever that is.

HighEliteMajor said:

@jayballer73 @Gunman I think this is really the ultimate “trust Self” moment. This seems very similar to the Tharpe situation. Self has a clear understanding of the “why” here — why isn’t Vick being invited back with open arms despite high talent, a likelihood of better production and an open scholarship? He’s better than Tharpe by a good ways. Wouldn’t the bet on a senior be better than the bet on a freshman? Especially for Self?

Of course. But that’s only part of the story. There is more at play here.

Thus the hesitancy by some in the peanut gallery. We see Self’s reaction and handling of this situation and it causes us great pause.

Without hearing Self’s words the other day, and back in early April, I would view this differently. Self’s words have influenced my opinion.

I think Self should go with his gut here. Whatever that is.

Sweetly put , I think you hit it right on the nose. - time will tell , I will say once more it's not going to floor me one way or another. I know Coach has had his run in's at different points with Vick but still just have to wait and see. - Who knows for sure? - -Only coach and Vick when it's all said and done.

If he does return - -then great no problems - -if not then we will be fine - -again very well put on your part makes sense for sure. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY