🏀 KuBuckets Archive

This is not a gloating post. I watched Sox-Royals last night and saw two teams on the field that have fewer wins combined than 4 AL teams. Now the Sox have been scuffling since 2012, right about the time the Royals began their fabulous run.

Does this reveal how hard it is for small market teams to maintain their success? Or is it just a matter of putting all their eggs in one basket for the ultimate prize which they accomplished?

Looking at the box score for game 5 that year they won they played 4 guys who played last night. Looking at their pitching staff from that season, there aren't many pieces left either.

So what happened to the Royals?

@wissox Back to the old ways of letting guys go they think they can’t afford, either by trading them for lower value players or just watching them walk.

They are all in on young pitchers right now.

It was in another thread but go back and look at their high draft picks the last 5 or so years. Just absolutely dreadful. When you are a small market team you have to hit on draft picks especially ones in the top 10. For all the praise Dayton gets his drafting has been sub par.

A lot of it plays into a teams farm system too. I can remember when KC had one of the better farms systems around> - -Like wasn't their system pretty high pretty dam salty when Frank White was around? - - -A lot of factors play in.

Poor drafting and player development led to a bad farm system. The Royals are not able to maintain a top 5 payroll, even when near the top for TV ratings and getting strong attendance.

The key is to limit the down cycles. Spend 2 or 3 years building back up after 5 years of being competitive. That's a decent trade off.

The draft was the Sox' downfall for many years too. Sounds like most of you agree they have been poor in that area.

@Jayballer73, the Royals used to do a good job but that was a long time ago. They had a long period of sustained success. Baseball has changed a ton since then.

Draft picks have been laughable and the beginning of the end started with resigning Gordon for way too much money. They could’ve kept a good chunk of the WS team together had they not done that. I’m a fan of Gordon but he’s easily replaced IMO.

@kjayhawks

I like Gordon but no question he is way overpaid. I would have preferred keeping Zobrist instead.

Woodrow said:

It was in another thread but go back and look at their high draft picks the last 5 or so years. Just absolutely dreadful. When you are a small market team you have to hit on draft picks especially ones in the top 10. For all the praise Dayton gets his drafting has been sub par.

I'm not sure we can say one negative thing about Dayton. There was no hope before he arrived. Lets not forget the Glass family was running the Royals like they were a clearance aisle at Walmart until Dayton arrived.

Agree or disagree with Dayton's drafting. Half the MLB would line up to ink Dayton to their team if he were to come on the open market.

@DoubleDD

Moore deserves lots of credit for drafting Moustakas, Hosmer, Duffy, Dyson, Holland, etc. and signing Perez, Herrera, Ventura, etc. That built the World Series teams.

But Moore's picks since about 2012 have largely been failures.

I can praise Moore for nailing the 2007, 2008 and 2009 drafts while also recognizing that Moore has missed on his last several drafts.

If he gets back to the groove he had in 2007-2009, KC might be planning a parade, but if he stays on the current path, he won't have a job in a few years.

@wissox , Whenever a post starts with "This is not a gloating post" - - - - it's a gloating post. lol

Read a trailor last night while watching NY & the Mets last on MLB network - - -saying that the Royals were on pace for a 46-116 season. Worst in Major league history , that's not good. -- I'm ready for football believe it or not lol

Royals traded a pitching prospect for Brian Goodwin today. I'll miss B Good. Good kid.

Trades like this happened

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24214390/milwaukee-brewers-acquire-mike-moustakas-kansas-city-royals ↗

The KC Brewers...

!0_1532787520410_Hitoneforme.jpg ↗

Trade looks like a decent return. Still passed on $3M salary though... Probably could have gotten more if we had eaten it. But Royals will be Royals.

I have already set up my schedule to watch the Royals next World Series...in 2045...:smile:

Kcmatt7 said:

Trade looks like a decent return. Still passed on $3M salary though... Probably could have gotten more if we had eaten it. But Royals will be Royals.

This is the problem with the deals the Royals have made. They should have absorbed the rest of the salary for the Brewers if it meant getting a better return. Refusing to eat salary is shortsighted. You're building for the future here.

@justanotherfan It's a sad thing for the fans to see that, imo.

@JayHawkFanToo Just a year after the White Sox' next!

@wissox

I think the White Sox have to wait longer

@JayHawkFanToo No you wait longer because yours was in 2015, mine was in 2005.

I still don’t see it from the White Sox... not that I’m saying I see anything from the Royals lol

@Kcmatt7 Red Sox yankees Astro’s for the foreseeable future. Throw in the Dodgers as well. They are all very good and pretty young. We’re just going to have to deal with it. Lol

@dylans It will be a solid 5 years I think. No surprise though...

I'd actually lump the Braves in on the NL side. I expect them to get involved in FA this offseason will only have about 70M on the books headed into 2019. I could see them spending near 180M next season. Phillies may be in the same boat. The East division in both leagues look like they will be dog fights in the future.

@wissox

Didn’t the White Sox waited 88 years between championships? You should expect the next one in 2093. The Royals waited only 30 years so we should expect the next one in 2045.

@Kcmatt7 White Sox have the 3rd ranked farm system in the majors and boatloads of money to spend. They're following the blueprint of the Astros and I hate to say, Cubs. Remember the Astros lost over 100 games 3 years in a row during their rebuild.

@JayHawkFanToo We're not waiting another 88 years! I need more than one WS in my lifetime.

@wissox

You might want to consider following a different team if you want more championships. :smile:

@JayHawkFanToo Sox gonna be really good in about 2 years. No guarantees that hot prospects work out, but good days are coming.

AL Central is down now because Chicago, Detroit and Kansas City are all in the midst of a rebuild. Chicago is the furthest along on their rebuild, so they should start winning in two years, around the time that Cleveland starts to fall off. Detroit and Kansas City are about three years behind that, with their best minor league talent still down in A ball, so they are about 5 years from being truly in contention, around the time that Cleveland is starting their full rebuild and Chicago is peaking.

Minnesota is in the worst shape, to be honest. They aren't really rebuilding at this point, but they also haven't really peaked. I don't see them surpassing Cleveland now or Chicago in two or three years, so their best chance may already be behind them (2017 Wild Card loss).

That's the tough thing about small markets. You have a relatively short window to win in. The Royals maximized their window the most (2 World Series, one title). Tampa, Oakland and Pittsburgh all had longer windows, but only Tampa made it to the World Series, and none of them won a title. Once that window opens, you really have to push everything into one or two years because that chance may be gone quicker than you think.

That's why I like what Milwaukee has done this year. They realize that this may be their best shot at the playoffs and potentially the World Series either this year or next year. Now, maybe they don't win it, but its smart to focus on the next year or two rather than extending the window long into the future, with no guarantee of payoff.

@justanotherfan I'm not smart enough to figure how this would all work, but the NFL has a genius plan in my opinion. No one ever talks small market in the NFL. Frequent Super Bowl winners Pittsburgh and GB are far from major markets. But their parity ideals means teams like them can compete at the highest level.

Baseball hasn't figured that out. St. Louis is probably the most successful small market team in MLB. A lot contributes to this but it's tiresome year after year to see the hottest free agents go to LA, NY, and Boston. It's also tiresome to see teams that develop talent to lose them when they reach free agency. For a long time, teams like Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, and KC were basically farm systems for the large market teams. Not a good way to run your sport. Especially when you consider all of those places have very loyal fanbases that will support the team when they're successful.

@wissox NFL has a hard Salary Cap and a weak Players Union.

@wissox

As @Kcmatt7 said, it all has to do with salary caps, revenue sharing, and those things.

MLB does not have a salary cap. As a result, the MLB has team salaries ranging from Boston at $228M and Tampa Bay at a little under $70M.

In the NFL, the salary cap is about $177M, with teams spending about that much - there is some complex accounting that goes into cap hits, etc., but the Giants can't spend three times what the Jaguars can.

In the NBA, there is both a salary cap and a salary floor. The NFL has a cap, but no floor, but probably has the best revenue sharing plan of all the major sports (in large part because the television deals are all national deals).

The reason basketball and football can do this is revenue sharing. In those leagues, the money goes into the same pot, so as the pot grows larger, everyone gets an equal piece of an ever growing pie.

Baseball is not like that. They have only limited revenue sharing, which means that a team like the Yankees, operating in the largest market, can capture a much larger payout from its television deal than teams like Tampa, KC and Milwaukee can. The NBA dealt with this problem by tying TV money into BRI (basketball related income) and making that a part of their revenue sharing plan. Since only a percentage of BRI goes to player salaries, the NBA basically guarantees profitability.

To really make things fair, you have to have revenue sharing, a salary cap and a salary floor. The NBA does this best, tying the cap and floor to BRI. As that income goes up, the players share in the increased profits. The NFL has the best revenue sharing, but doesn't share that revenue with the players (why the NFLPA is incredibly weak compared to MLBPA and NBPA).

Baseball probably won't get a cap until they get comprehensive revenue sharing to ensure that a team like Tampa Bay won't get buried by the cap, but they also need a floor to make sure an owner won't just pocket the revenue instead of spending it on salary.

@Kcmatt7 Also, the MLB has no real cap and weak owners.

@HighEliteMajor A lot of factors to it, but the MLB players union is pretty much always financially prepared for a holdout.

The NFL Union is not.

It’s hard for guys with such a short window of a pro career (nfl players avg 5 years) to hold out. Especially if they haven’t gotten the big contract yet.

Tomorrow is the final installment of the scintillating Sox Royals rivalry of 2018 in the race for the bottom.

@wissox Baltimore is streaking in to make it a real race!

Nothing is more Royals than being a historically bad team, AND somehow still getting the 2nd pick in the draft.

@mayjay I know Baltimore is messing it up for both or our teams. Looked like a sure thing Royals draft 1, Sox 2 or vice versa, but no, they got to trade Manny Machado.

@wissox

The O's were awful before the Machado trade. This just guaranteed they would not get better.

@justanotherfan You're right. They went downhill very quickly.

Royals win innings 1-6, then the Sox win 7-9.

@wissox Still just one game out of the #1 pick. Gotta choke and win some games. Lol

Daughter won tickets for Sox game Tuesday at work and invited me. Sox announce they're bringing up their superstar minor league pitcher Michael Kopech and he'll start Tuesday. Jackpot! Kopech is the guy the Sox got for Chris Sale.

wissox said:

Royals win innings 1-6, then the Sox win 7-9.

Obviously, official standings should reflect this. KC should be credited with 2/3 of a win.

@wissox Have fun at the game!

@dylans I ended up not going! Today was 1st day of school, forecast was kind of bad. Turns out my hunch was right. 1 hour rain delay after two innings meant Kopech only pitched 2 innings. He was terrific, striking out 4 including ending a 1st and 3rd with nobody out threat with two K's and a popup.

@wissox Cool and overcast here today as well. I haven’t gotten out of my rain suit all day. It’s more of a sweatsuit at this point than a rain suit though. Sorry about the game, hope you can catch another one soon!

@wissox at least your hunch was right🤷‍♀️

I'm going to see the Royals, possibly the worst team in the history of baseball, Friday night. I'm taking my mom for her 75th birthday, who has never been to any major league sporting event. I figure it will be a good representation of what I've endured most of my life growing up in Illinois as a Cubs fan and then following the Royals the past 20 years when I moved the KC area. (Other than a four or five tragically promising years and two good ones, it's been pretty bad!)

Got cheap seats 10 rows behind the Royals dugout, and it's fireworks/buck night. Should be fun!

@DanR you're a good son and maybe a better fan!

@DanR

I am sure you mom will love it; as we get older we truly enjoy when our kids or grandkids do thoughtful things for us. Also, we really don’t expect the Royals to win so if they do, it is a nice surprise.:smile:

@DanR Have fun with Mom! And say hello to the other fan for me!

@DanR Have fun. I went when they played the Cards. By the 8th inning the stands were full of red.

Too bad they're not playing the Sox so the Royals have a chance to win for her! Have fun.

@Barney Worst thing I ever did to my Royals fandom was go to a game in St. Louis. They outclass the Royals at every stop. The stadium, the players, the WS championships, the present and the future. But I’m still a monogamous Royals fan patiently waiting for the good times to come back around.

@DanR ku B.B. players will be there. Ought to be good.⚾️⛑👀🤕

@dylans Living in SE KS and SW MO (far away from the 2 cities) my whole life I have always been a fan of both. You are right about STL has always done baseball very well, KC has always been better on the football side.

@dylans I understand what you're saying, but if you start at the time of the Royals WS win in 1985, the Royals and Cardinals each have 2 WS wins. OF course 3 years before that year the Cards won, and they've played in 6 compared to 3 to the Royals in the same time span.

Another aspect is that fans of almost all teams look up to the Cardinals and say the same thing. I'd love to follow a team that I know I have hope for the next season.

Finally, the Royals have a pretty nice park too. In fact it was better than Busch 1, but currently isn't as nice as Busch 2. As a Sox fan I'm jealous of almost every teams stadium because ours is one of the worst!

@wissox I went to a Rookies game in the 90s and was not In the least bit jealous of that team. That was when they were decent too with Dante Botchet and Andres Galaraga both hitting homeruns during the game. Fun, but the stadium and crowd was uninspiring.

The new Busch stadium is very nice. I’d love to go to Wriggley as well as Boston and NY for games.

@wissox Sox ballpark has the worst NAME for sure!

@dylans I've been to old and new Busch many times. Old was horrible, even after they put in grass and fixed the outfield. The new one looks pretty but it's a miserable place to be on hot sunny days because there are hardly any seats to get under the upper decks. Nice big seats for fat butts down in the lower level though.

Being right downtown makes every ballpark/stadium better too, Wrigley is so easy to get to on the train it's just as fun as being downtown anyway.

OK... I'm off to the K!

@DanR I sat in the champions louge? in the 2nd level of Busch stadium. It was very nice - included 3 buffets, 2 open bars and had their WS trophies on display. The stadium was completely full of people wearing red. Wacha was a rookie and threw a no-no thru 8 2/3. The weather was perfect for a fall game they were in contention for 1st place in the NL, I believe. The game was lots of fun.

It’s a stark contrast to the Royals games I’ve been to, but I’m still a Royals fan. Sometimes I wonder why, but I’m still a Royals fan through and through. I’m not in the least a Cardinals fan. I make fun of my cousins who are for being bandwagon fans...they’ve never been to the new Busch stadium, they have no idea how right they are.

@DanR Looks like you’re getting your money’s worth tonight! Long game, sorry to hear about the delay.

@DanR The name is terrible, the logo is worse. It's a giant red arrow pointing down.

Funny story about Kauffman. My adult BFF is a huge baseball fan and was driving by there in the offseason. He pulled off the hiway and found a gate open into the stadium. He walked into the stadium, walked down by the dugout. Didn't see anyone so he climbs the short wall and goes into the dugout. There's a door, it's open, goes into it and follows it right into the clubhouse. Looks around for a minute or two, and walks back out. Climbs back up to the concourse and someone sees him and asks him what he was doing. My friend asked if he could look at the stadium. The guy said you can stand here but don't go any further. My friend said ok. Then walked out!

What a game! KU pm!

@DanR I'm wondering if you stayed?

@Crimsonorblue22 We stayed! It was a pretty long game with the water delay and with Peralta taking 5 minutes between pitches in the ninth (he got out of the jam though, so I suppose it was worth it!). Stayed for the Salvy Splash and fireworks.

!1_1535211211028_salviedunk.jpg ↗

Great first-game experience for my mom, and I was glad it ended up being a sort of memorable "historic" game with the water leak and the back-to-back rookie homers to win it in the ninth.

Pretty funny, several times on the way to the ballpark my mom expressed concern about getting hit by a foul ball. I kept telling her there was a net, we were right behind it, and you're not going to get hit. Wouldn't you know, the very first batter fouled one straight up and over the net and it landed about three rows in front of us. I got quite the "you betrayed me/I'm SO disappointed in you" look. So I changed my story and said, "well, you won't get hit in the face, maybe just the top of your head." My wife added, "plus, it's the broken bats you really have to worry about."

!0_1535211211027_Royals82418.jpg ↗

Looks like a great time! What's the "water delay"?

@wissox The fountain behind the center field wall broke and was flooding.

@dylans Did it flood onto the field?

@wissox LEAKY SITUATION ↗

The fountains sprang a leak during the fourth inning. Relievers in the Royals bullpen jumped and yelled to alert game officials and maintenance workers, triggering the stoppage.

"I thought I was back in the minor leagues," Indians manager Terry Francona said. "Nobody knew what was going on."

As maintenance personnel worked to stop the flow of water, more than a dozen grounds crew members armed with squeegees wicked water from the warning track as it poured from under the fence. They also created a sandbag barrier to keep standing water from reaching the outfield grass.

Keller shrugged off the unusual delay, which came after Yan Gomes' two-out double, and struck out Greg Allen to get out of the fourth inning with the lead intact.

Meanwhile the Sox can't even tank correctly winning 9 of their last 12 games. All hope of the #1 pick are long gone.

Sox just won a series in NY for the first time since our WS win in 2005.

What happened? The Royals players are doing awesome! Ben Zobrist hit a walkoff. Kendrys Morales hit homeruns in 7 straight games. Oh yeah they don’t play in KC. Hoz sucks, so dodged a bullet there. I’d hate to have Hoz and Gordon both under big contracts. Crippling...it could be worse.

@dylans Dude. Royals are 4-1 since I took my mom to her first ever game. This has been literally the best week of the season!

She's semi-modestly accepting credit for it too.

@DanR better take her more often!

Sox-Royals in ALCS 2019!

wissox said:

Sox-Royals in ALCS 2019!

...and then, you woke up. :smiley:

The Royals put a whoopin’ on the hapless Orioles last night 9-2 moving them just out of last place in the run differential stat. It’s been a rough year.

I was at the game and all it did was really piss me off that Mondesi, O'Hearn and Dozier weren't up at the beginning of the season.