🏀 KuBuckets Archive

We saw it with Jamari and we are seeing it again with Garrett. There have been some others as well but these are the two most severe.

This crap has to end. Play your best players.

@HighEliteMajor

I said in the game thread the only explanation is he didn’t like what Q was doing on defense. He was pissed at him on the last 3 they hit right before the half. However, I’m with you. Marcus has done nothing to earn PT in this game.

13 shots tonight!!! That's about 10 too many.

MG was off a little more than usual on his drives. Typically he’s good there.

@BShark Every time Garret shoots a three I’m thinking, “turnover!” Same difference.

dylans said:

@BShark Every time Garret shoots a three I’m thinking, “turnover!” Same difference.

He hit one

Bwag said:

dylans said:

@BShark Every time Garret shoots a three I’m thinking, “turnover!” Same difference.

He hit one

But : “Son, there’s a reason you’re open out there” is relevant

I liked his penetration, one of the only guys consistently driving all the way to the bucket... just couldn’t finish. But yea thought someone else should be getting some of those minutes. The Jamari analogy does seem relevant too.

We have a hall of fame coach who doesn't know what he's doing I guess.

MG is clearly being told by the staff to drive- thats why he is doing it. If he was not doing what the coaches wanted, he would be benched. Plain and simple.
His ability to finish is not particularly good right now, but He is also playing defense and rebounding, doing his part in a particular offense set, and moving well without the ball, so that’s why he’s getting the minutes.

Here’s a useful tip. Re-watch games, and just key in one one KU player, pick any one. If you pick Garrett, chances are you will see things you missed before.

Garrett’s D is solid. His shooting is horrendous. Something like 1 of 8 from three this season. Same flat footed delivery that he misses free throws with too. It’s just a picture of pure ugliness. I was hoping to see some improvement this offseason, but that hasn’t happened.

Here’s hoping Grimes can get his performance up to where he logs 35 minutes per game.

Garrett coming in for defensive assignments and spot duty would make me more comfortable.

wissox said:

We have a hall of fame coach who doesn't know what he's doing I guess.

Are you for real with this?

@HighEliteMajor I need you here.

Self called Garrett the best player tonight. Sometimes Self can be wrong. It's okay to think this or discuss the possibility. No reason to stifle discussion.

My hope is that he is playing Garrett to prove a point to Grimes or someone else. Grimes got 26 minutes tonight after all, albeit highly invisible minutes. But we've seen this rodeo before. Remember when Jamari played 20 minutes a game and KU got dumpstered in the tournament by Wichita State? Playing Garrett huge minutes is pretty short sighted. It's not the kind of move that helps the team improve. However this was also an interesting game because of the match-up, and Self did go 4 guards pretty often.

I'll end this with a quote from Tully at halftime.

"If Marcus Garrett takes that many shots in the second half they gotta remove Bill Self from the Hall of Fame."

@Bosthawk I get WHY Garrett plays. I think Self is wrong for doing so. Other, better players with more potential can learn. Self has shown a penchant for playing low ceiling, low risk guys in the past and he is doing it again. This is BRADY MORNINGSTAR all over again. It's Jamari. It's Lucas. Etc...

I actually like the fact that he drives. He should do that every time instead of taking a three.

@dylans His on ball defense is pretty good. Off-ball is another story, though it was an issue for KU all year until the 2nd half tonight basically.

There is another impact of this too - recruiting. I brought this up in another thread about another player but it's not a good look that Grimes barely gets any shots tonight (this is on Grimes somewhat) and that he gets benched for his defense (classic Billy, and known info but still it hurts in recruiting). Speaking of that other player, Dave looked pretty okay in his whopping two minutes tonight.

Dedric was the best player tonight. Dotson was 2nd. Vick was 3rd.

@BShark Self can most definitely be wrong, in fact he is often if you think about it. I honestly disagree that MG played to much tho. Grimes did absolutely nothing tonight, he was burned repeatedly and was flatout lazy for much of the game. That was the story on him coming in, super streaky shot and lack of effort. He played 26 minutes to 28 by MG. Charlie Moore and K.J. are pretty much here just because at this point, I see neither guy ever making an impact here (would’ve rather Sam stayed and Moore left). Moore recorded a steal that was knocked loose by someone else and a rebound in 14 minutes. My question is, who else pays then? I think MG shot the ball a little much but most of his shots were late in the first half with Doke out, Dedric ineffective and not much really coming from anyone else. I was most disappointed in his 2/5 from the line. I thought he played good defense and drove the ball fairly well tonight, just needed to finish a few more. It’s funny how Dedric gets about 25 shots blocked right back in face in a 3 game stretch and it nothing to bat an eye at but MG has struggled shooting it and it is a huge deal. MG needs to improve offensively no question but so do several other players on this team and most of those players can’t guard as well. At this point I’d be shocked to see Grimes go pro after this season. I honestly think Dotson is the better player of the 2.

@BShark I think you're taking Grimes not playing harder than Grimes did.

I suspect Self's reasons for playing MG had more to do with teaching Grimes a lesson, and about intensity on D, than about trying to get points. I can't say that he is "wrong" when he knows on what criteria he is judging players. There could also be attitude issues, excuse making, etc, that we don't see. I thought the 2 blocks by Garrett were huge, and he played a major role with some timely rebounds when it looked like he was the only one being aggressive on the boards. Since Self believes that "2 pts prevented is the same as 2 scored" we should just chalk it up to the number of failed Marq possessions Garrett managed to control.

I feel blessed to be able to watch this game in person. I was extremely disappointed by Grimes. He seemed to be lost from get go and was making bad plays, he was completely out of it. While Marcus was not scoring points, he was still playing with great hustle and energy even in the first half. His D was much better than Grimes.

Self mentioned it in the post game that he decided to start Marcus so he can get players who were playing best, and I agree with him there that overall Marcus was playing much better than Q.

Overall I was really impressed by Dotson. Its hard to tell on TV but watching in real time action the kid is super fast and plays with great intensity the whole time. He is going to be a star.

@BShark Well yes I was being sarcastic obviously, but I really don't get your pessimism. Last night we get smacked around for 10 minutes of a game. And it was really bad, but for 10 minutes we got beat by about 18-20 points or so. The rest of the game we dominated that team. For you to predict that Marquette was going to run us out of the gym I just don't get. For you to question playing Garrett I don't get. I know during the game chat I said he sucked, but IDK, we won with Garrett playing most of the game, so if he's playing favorites and we win, great! Sit back and enjoy the ride because I don't think you've enjoyed a minute of any of our 4 wins so far.

Garret played PG a fair amount of time and directed the offense rather well and of course his defense and effort were very good; all coaches like that.

I have to 100% agree that Garrett should barely be touching the floor he is so bad offensively. The period where him and Mitch were on the court at the same time, I'm not sure we scored.

But he did play decent D in the 2nd half. Still, putrid offensively. 11 points on 13 shots, and missing 3 FTs. However he did have the 2nd best defensive rating after Dotson. And he actually had a better offensive rating than Grimes...

The truth is, playing Garrett isn't the issue. It's Grimes not forcing Self to play him. 3 shots in 26 minutes means he isn't looking to score. 0 assists means he wasn't doing anything that would get someone else open. Grimes just plain sucked last night. Maybe Garrett was the better option last night... Even as ugly as it looked.

Beyond the starters I don’t see much guard talent. I thought this team would be much deeper.

Here’s hoping Charlie gets up to speed and Garrett stops shooting 3s! Usable depth would be nice! Charlie as a spark plug off the bench with a deadly shot and Garrrett off the bench to shut down the other teams best wing and drive to create fouls is what I’m hoping for.

Here's the thing. This is a two part issue -- Micro and Macro.

The unassailable truth. The micro. Self benched Grimes. We were down. We looked bad. Then, starting Garrett, we went on 22-0 run and blew the doors off of Marquette. So looking at this from just the game last night, how can we question that decision? Of course, we don't know if starting Grimes would have rendered the same result. But that's not really fair to look at a single game that way. All that matters in a single-game analysis is the score. And that cuts both ways. When we lose, those sort of decisions fall on Self as well. I have no issues with how we won last night. We won.

Where I think @BShark is dead on here is the macro. The big picture here is Self's unfortunate (and also unassailable) history of reverting to lower tier players, and getting comfortable with them. Not permitting them to play through mistakes. The end result is also the best judge. And in every instance he has done this, big picture, our season has ended prematurely. Relying on the likes of B-Star, Traylor, and Lucas were ridiculous decisions given the alternatives. Again, we judge on results. I always chuckle about this stuff because we called it at the time. With Lucas, our most recent and unfortunate example, relying on a low talent big, bumping his ceiling, never sniffs the NBA -- it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that when you rely on those kinds of players against higher tier talent, like you will see in the NCAA tourney, you're chances of losing such a match skyrocket. But we had folks here actually wanting to debate that point, even after the fact, when the future was already predicted for them -- on more than one occasion.

Heck, we whined for years about Self not adapting his system to his talent. We wanted more threes. We discussed 4/1. We cringed at force-feeding the post. I flat imploded after a game at Sprint Center (I think Utah) where we drilled threes, got to a 20 point lead, and then Self at halftime castigated Perry Ellis and his team for shooting threes (fools gold -- ah, seems a long time ago). Self certainly wasn't embracing where the CBB game was going. The Self lackeys screamed, called names, accused some of not being fans (the "I'm more of a fan than you" tripe) -- still laughable. Of course, now Self does exactly what we discussed. In fact, he embraces it. Guess what? This is unassailable. Self was wrong for a long time OR now he's right. Can't have it both ways. The answer, by the way, is that he's correct now.

Well, @BShark is predicting the future right now for you. So listen up. We've been here before. If we rely on a guy like Garrett in certain matchups, he'll kill our season. Just like the B-Stars, and Traylors, and Lucases of nightmare's past. Very importantly, his defense is not "lock down", and certainly not good enough in the big picture to take the incredible hit offensively. The sheer incompetence offensively is not manageable.

However, Garrett can certainly be useful, situationally. Like last night.

But here's my take on this. Self knows. He knows good and well that having Garrett regularly play 28 minutes will not allow this team to get to the Final Four. Like a road block. Garrett is showing significant signs of a very low offensive ceiling. We can be confident that Self knows. So we can avoid panic mode.

Bill Self did not start Garrett. He started B-Star, he started Lucas, he started Traylor. All the freaking time. And he insisted on playing them in all situations. Go-to guys. I'm very certain that Garrett is not going to be a go-to guy in all situations.

Bill Self has started Grimes. He knows Grimes is one of our necessary tickets to the Final Four. And to have a chance to win it all, he's got to be a main cog. A big piece. But as @Kcmatt7 said, last night was on Grimes. Heck, actually, I thought it was brilliant and gutsy to come out with Garrett. In the past, I'd have thought differently. Why? Because I think Bill Self has changed quite a bit. I always like to point this out, but we don't see the missed three point shot flopping around on the bench anymore. He's in a different place.

And I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating. When we wanted Self to change, it was not about anyone allegedly being "smarter" than Bill Self. It was about Bill Self knowing, as a leader, that his way is the right way. Self being confident in that. His way or the highway. Many great leaders get to their pinnacle that way. Self was one. He didn't get to where he was by adapting. He got to where he was by knowing the path. That makes it hard for coaches to change. Hard for any leader to change. But he has. Think about the evolution of the game in the past 10 years. I think it's much harder for a guy in Self's position to change than one might think. He's got more at stake. We can all say, "shoot more three pointers", but when the guy won a NC one way, I think it's reasonable to see a resistance to changing from that blueprint. But he has.

I have great faith that Garrett will not be this season's personnel disaster. And I have great faith that Self knows that without Grimes playing well and playing big minutes, this team is not a Final Four team. In the past, I would have sheer dread about future playing time. Now, I firmly believe that Bill Self is a different coach than he was in the past. @BShark can relax a bit.

As an aside, we know that the narrative on Garrett might change. He could make a big leap at some point. His offensive play could really improve I guess. There is that possibility. It just doesn't look much like anything near a probability at this point offensively, and there's nothing that indicates any real hope from what we've seen.

The obvious point is that Grimes' skill level is NBA quality. Much better to bank on that development, minutes-wise, than Garrett.

I will note -- and thank you @wissox -- we have our first "enjoy the ride" suggestion, and just four games in.

Just re-watched the game, paying special attention to grimes and Garrett.

First of all, the game plan was to be aggressive and drive the ball especially because Marquette’s defensive plan was to guard close outside. Thus the big free throw disparity in Our favor. The guy in my opinion who had the most “forced” drives was Lawson, followed by Garrett. These were not particularly successful in the first half, but Lawson’s second half drives were better. He has more skill to finish than Garrett anyway, but the plan was to drive past the defenders who were In their faces outside.

Grimes seemed lost at times, the game most likely being too fast for his current ability to adjust on defense. He was slow to fight thru screens, and slow to switch. A few open threes by Marquette was essentially on him. He never really got comfortable enough to find good spots for shooting.. he just seemed a step behind a lot of times on both ends of the court. He did have some good moments though, and his dive for ball (which almost cause Moore a grievous injury) was the kind of play that self loves to see.

Garrett overall played more solidly. He fought thru screens better, switched on cue, boxed out well, read well when to move in for rebounding, and stayed in position on his man defensively. On offense he moved well away from the ball (which is how the coaches draw it up in practice), and took the open three when it was handed to him (again doing exactly what the coaches trained him to do)
He missed 2 or 3, but He hit one in the second half which was a key one to extend our lead and keep the momentum going. Twice, When Marquette double-teamed Lawson, he saw the open space and quickly moved under the basket and Lawson found him for the easy bucket. Again, exactly what he was coached to do in practice. He did make some mistakes, particularly in an inbounds play where he let his man get by him for a layup.

Grimes is of course a better potential more skilled player than Garrett. The question is, against a good team like Marquette early in the season, does self go with the guys playing better at that point? The point is to win, right? This subject of course has been brought up many times here over the years.. Should self play the inexperienced high-ceiling guys more and let them work thru their mistakes to get more experience in the long run that will pay off later in the season? Or play the guys he thinks gives him the best chance to win they particular day?

Personally, if Grimes is a classic OAD, I can only hope he makes an impact this season, and Doesn’t follow the usual OAD path of looking good early, and then streaky inconsistent play to outright disappearing when the going gets tough. Newman was an exception (and I’m technically classifying him as a OAD). Maybe the answer is to ride grimes thru the good and the bad. And he could have gone to a different program where he would have been on the floor all the time, but he chose Kansas and Self. So he had to know the deal.

Grimes has proved himself against the very best in the USA games. Self rode him too. MVP. Self knows how great he is. Grimes will learn!

In the case of Grimes I am certain he will be back in starting line up. Self and staff will show him the tape and I am confident he will learn from this game.]

I don't see Grimes in the same category as Cliff, Diallo, AW3 - talented players who could not get PT at KU for one reason or the other.

KUSTEVE said:

@BShark I think you're taking Grimes not playing harder than Grimes did.

Grimes played 26 minutes which is fine. He didn't do much. I'm more worried about Garrett's high minutes when KJ never plays. Moore gets too many minutes too, he played 14 last night and was practically invisible on the court.

I wish Dave could play more, but this year I don't know where the minutes would come from. He will be very good for KU down the line.

kjayhawks said:

@BShark Self can most definitely be wrong, in fact he is often if you think about it. I honestly disagree that MG played to much tho. Grimes did absolutely nothing tonight, he was burned repeatedly and was flatout lazy for much of the game. That was the story on him coming in, super streaky shot and lack of effort. He played 26 minutes to 28 by MG. Charlie Moore and K.J. are pretty much here just because at this point, I see neither guy ever making an impact here (would’ve rather Sam stayed and Moore left). Moore recorded a steal that was knocked loose by someone else and a rebound in 14 minutes. My question is, who else pays then? I think MG shot the ball a little much but most of his shots were late in the first half with Doke out, Dedric ineffective and not much really coming from anyone else. I was most disappointed in his 2/5 from the line. I thought he played good defense and drove the ball fairly well tonight, just needed to finish a few more. It’s funny how Dedric gets about 25 shots blocked right back in face in a 3 game stretch and it nothing to bat an eye at but MG has struggled shooting it and it is a huge deal. MG needs to improve offensively no question but so do several other players on this team and most of those players can’t guard as well. At this point I’d be shocked to see Grimes go pro after this season. I honestly think Dotson is the better player of the 2.

Disagree about Sam. He was really bad.

As for who else plays, I am interested in seeing more from KJ. Garrett can't shoot. Marquette was letting him take open looks because that's a good strategy. He drives the ball okay, but without a real purpose or knowledge of what to do after the drive. Still, at least he is willing to do it. Him and Dotson are the only willing drivers on this team. If he were making his lay-ups, he'd be a much better overall player. His dribble is kind of suspect as well.

Dedric has a proven body of work. He settled down a bit last night which helped. He just needs to get a feel for playing with this team and get back to playing real games again. He's pretty crafty.

Based on what we are seeing, Grimes shouldn't be an NBA pick. He can't get by guys in college so he's going to do it in the NBA? Yeah right. that said he is dead set on being OAD.

@Bosthawk Really good post. Quinerly got cleanup minutes in Nova's most recent games. Bolden languished on the bench for two years at Dook. I'm not worried about Grimes. This is a teaching moment, imo. It might be a Oubre style playing time model- or it might be that Grimes gets 30+ minutes next game. He has the ability, and I think it's up to him how much he plays. Once the lightbulb finally goes off, he will be tremendous. i would say that Dotson is light years ahead of what people thought he would be, and Grimes has been less than what we thought he would be ...so far.

@AsadZ Dotson is a blur on TV too.

Kcmatt7 said:

I have to 100% agree that Garrett should barely be touching the floor he is so bad offensively. The period where him and Mitch were on the court at the same time, I'm not sure we scored.

But he did play decent D in the 2nd half. Still, putrid offensively. 11 points on 13 shots, and missing 3 FTs. However he did have the 2nd best defensive rating after Dotson. And he actually had a better offensive rating than Grimes...

The truth is, playing Garrett isn't the issue. It's Grimes not forcing Self to play him. 3 shots in 26 minutes means he isn't looking to score. 0 assists means he wasn't doing anything that would get someone else open. Grimes just plain sucked last night. Maybe Garrett was the better option last night... Even as ugly as it looked.

He was better than Grimes in all facets last night. Grimes was terrible.

Having Garrett and Lightfoot out there at the same time is atrocious and as good as Dotson as been it gets worse if he is in that mix too. You can't afford three non-shooters on the court at the same time.

dylans said:

Beyond the starters I don’t see much guard talent. I thought this team would be much deeper.

Here’s hoping Charlie gets up to speed and Garrett stops shooting 3s! Usable depth would be nice! Charlie as a spark plug off the bench with a deadly shot and Garrett off the bench to shut down the other teams best wing and drive to create fouls is what I’m hoping for.

Agree. Dotson and Vick are good. Grimes is streaky. Outside of that...Garrett is...consistently mediocre? Charlie and KJ are non-factors...

It might have been a mistake to RS Ochai. If KJ is never going to play and Garrett is this blah.

@HighEliteMajor Nice discourse, thanks.

@Bosthawk I feel like part of Garrett's off-ball movement was because Marquette basically wasn't guarding him.

I hope the message got through to Grimes, there is no way he should be THAT bad and disengaged.

@BShark
Good point about people not close-guarding Garrett, Which is all the more reason for him to do everything in his power to make teams pay for slacking off him.
At the very least, since he is clearly coached to drive, he needs to Work on getting well above 50% from the free throw line.
Work on his threes, and free throws, and with his defensive skills, he will be a net positive on the floor.

@HighEliteMajor
Just closely read your lengthy post. I could be missing something here, but the essential conceit, a point you have made consistently over the years, is that guys like Lucas, Taylor, M-star and potentially Garrett, are bad because THEY CANT SCORE, or at least can’t score as much as some other players, thus shouldn’t see as much playing time as other higher potential players who are better scorers. In Other words, can’t score = bad player, and can’t score = losing in the ncaa tourney.
I’m not embarrassed to admit my lack of knowledge of What KU players in the past would be considered an all around player- scoring, defense, rebounding, passing, boxing out, etc. I’m sure there are plenty that we’ve had, but not everybody can usually do all things.

A few years back, you brought up the heated and long debated subject of Jamari as an example of a guy who shouldn’t be playing as much because he wasn’t a scoring threat, and thus was a lower talent guy.
I thought then that Self surely must be playing him for a reason other than that he was a coach favorite, so I started the practice of re-watching games and really focusing on just one player- in that case Jamari, but also other players. I learned a lot about the subtleties of hoops at the college level, and came to the realization that what self values (and I’m sure other good coaches) is guys who play good overall D, box out, pass, set picks, help teammates get open, and know what their role is in a team system. In other words, scoring IS ONLY ONE FACET, not the most important ones apparently at least for certain guys. Every good team does need some primary scorers.. Perry Ellis comes to mind, and often his D was awful as well as some other parts of his game. You can’t have a whole team of role players at the top tier of D1, but again Self CLEARLY values guys like Lucas, Traylor, and Garret for what they can do, and feels that a really good OVERALL team HAS to have a certain amount of guys like that.

So yes I do agree that self need to cultivate our NBA-talent level guy Grimes, ride him, play him thru the bad stretches because we will need him for sure. Particularly his ability to score. But self will always value the role guys because he is convinced of their value despite their scoring liabilities, and is convinced that you WIN with a mix of those guys.

(Also, guys who are “NBA” level in talent are not necessarily the best fit for certain college systems.
The NBA does put a very high priority on scorers, not necessarily defensive guys, which is why you see guys who just OK in college really shine in the NBA, and even more, guys with supposed NBA talent who cant cut it.)

Not sure this is a good example of the subject matter here, But last year I was at the east regional game between West Virginia and Villanova. Huggie of course has an ENTIRE program built around defense- first selfless team guys, but not necessarily guys who are natural scorers first.
They harassed Villanova endlessly, caused turnovers like they’re built to do, and forged a lead late in the game. But Villanova had guys who could step it up when it mattered and hit huge buckets with guys draped all over them, Yes NBA level guys, to regain the lead...
West Virginia couldn’t answer. They simply didn’t have the scorers who could step up in crunch time, and sometimes basketball comes down to scoring ability above all else.

@HighEliteMajor well-balanced analysis. Always glad when you weigh in.

@Bosthawk So role players are of course okay, pretty much essential even. Not everyone gets to be the star. Teams like 08 KU or 09 UNC are fairly abnormal where you have a bunch of high level players. The problem actually is the lack of being an offensive threat. The other part of the problem is when Self takes a subpar player like Jamari and plays him too much. Let's take JR year Jamari for instance. 10 minutes a game is probably fine, but 20? No way his stats were that of a play half the game player. Landen was a serviceable big, a 15 minutes a game kind of guy. He should have started 1 game for KU though, SR night, instead he started 63. The difference with, say, a player such as Russ Rob is clear. Role players like Russ Rob are what you want. Good and willing defender, does all the little things you mentioned (box out, make smart passes, run screens, rebound, play within the team etc) but doesn't kill you on offense. The trouble comes when Self likes a player for the little reasons, but is an absolute albatross offensively. Self can't help but play them, it's his kryptonite. However like @HighEliteMajor mentioned, it's why KU is so good in the regular season, it will assure you win games against lesser competition and athletes. Making the right plays is a sure way to steal games. The bigger issue is that what if you can teach your higher ceiling players to play like that. Self has his approach that's for sure, it resonated with Oubre, but flamed out with Diallo, Cliff etc... It eventually worked with the guys Brady played ahead of kinda, just not that year. It's a slow burn with Self, and why typically his best teams are loaded with guys experienced playing for Bill specifically. Garrett not starting IS big, let's hope it continues.

GREAT point about NBA talent and fit in specific college systems. Some players have definitely felt like a bit of a waste under Self. Of course in the past Self was too rigid at times but like HEM said he has softened up a bit. This is also a big part of why I am not worried about the McBride and Braun commitments. They should be good college players. Both can shoot it and are constantly described with words/terms such as winner, competitor, tough, gets after it etc... So if the staff thinks they are a good fit, and you develop them over 4-5 years I am all for that. In fact if all three stay at KU, I almost have no doubt that RS JR Agbaji, + 3rd Year Braun/McBride will be very salty back court pieces.

@BShark
All good points. In an ideal world you would get guys who do it all, or figure out the best way to play your glue role-play guys to compliment and help develop the scorers. Perhaps Self needs, as you HEM have stated, to learn to bite the bullet and play the best perceived talent guys more early on. Not sure Self would agree with you though.

Part of the issue for me is i am admittedly biased, and perhaps less coldly rational about the situation. I, like self, am perhaps TOO fond of our past role-player types- I loved releford, loved Lucas, and loved traylor. My current fave Is Garrett, and also mitch. But I’m Just a fan who likes who I like...
And I’m conversely probably unreasonably biased against the OAD guys we get from time to time, although I loved Jackson’s effort. (I hope he can find his way in the pros ... currently not going as we all thought for him. A guy clearly who came with NBA level talent. )

Is Dotson considered a 4-year guy? God I hope so...
What fun it was to have Frank and Devonte for their 4 years. And both currently in the Big Show despite not being perceived as NBA- level guys early on.

Bosthawk said:

Is Dotson considered a 4-year guy?

No. There is a chance he leaves after this year but likely a 2-3 year player.

BShark said:

Self called Garrett the best player tonight. Sometimes Self can be wrong. It's okay to think this or discuss the possibility. No reason to stifle discussion.

This.

Lawson Assessment

Like @BShark I agree that KJ is not getting enough minutes. And they are coming in a choppy fashion that do not really let him get into any type of flow or rhythm. If you are in for 2 min, and then get yanked right back out, you will start playing like the hook is coming, which become the "Self" fulfilling prophesy. I would like to see KJ get more min (over Garrett) so we can really see how he does. He has not had a fair shake to show if he is going to play with intensity on both ends.

As for Dedric, he is clearly a guy who knows how to play (similar to Perry). But where Perry was simply undersized, I have been troubled and astounded by Dedric's lack of jumping ability and explosion to the basket. I mean, he can hardly jump over a piece of paper. Which makes me question if he has a bad wheel or something. It relegates him to the "old man" game, and that is not what I was expecting from an elite talent. Anyone thinking he was going to be more athletic than he has shown so far? I think he will produce, and get us double-doubles, but when we face teams with multiple bigs who are elite athletes, I think he is going to struggle finishing at the hoop unless it is an issue where he recovers from an injury... if there is one.

The biggest problem for Jamari is he didn't improve after his sophomore year. He had some spectacular plays, and was at his best in working the high/low passing system Self cherishes, but he was not creative in making his own opportunities to score. I already see a huge difference between "reactive JT" and the aggression Garrett has started displaying. I think it is a bit premature to predict Garrett won't improve based on this point only a few games into his sophomore year.

@Fightsongwriter He's not hurt, he's just...this unathletic. He graded out as the absolute worst athlete at the combine after his SO year at Memphis. If he had a lick of hops, he'd be in the NBA right now.

So far its looked like Dotson will be a OAD. It's super early but I cant imagine scouts are not impressed with his ability to defend, jet in the open court and run the team. Again this is just from what we have seen early but I can imagine he will only get better and more comfortable as the season goes. He is already one of the 5 most valuable players on this team and that wont be lost come spring

@mayjay What you are describing is a player in Traylor that had probably peaked. We all have a ceiling. When looking at Traylor's four seasons, it seems apparent that his sophomore season was the peak or perhaps a touch of overachievement. He was simply a bad basketball player. His junior season was just awful. His senior season was worse. By then, Self finally realized the harm Traylor was causing. Playing Traylor, and even having him on the roster, was a mistake. With Garrett, it is premature. But the skill set of shooting .. one you can analyze quite a bit by what you see .. is a struggle. Hard to see that materializing. But Aaron Miles shot 50% from 3 his senior year. Things can change. But such a shift is huge exception.

@Bosthawk Right, scoring is one element. And my judgment of those three players (Traylor, Lucas, Brady) was in part due to their lack of scoring. Just part. Lucas was the one where the lack of scoring was the biggest focus. Traylor was trainwreck in all aspects except for blocks coming from off the ball. That's all he was good at. And he was bad at everything else. Further, as a purported energy guy, he was lazy and loafed down the court a lot of the time. Brady was just slow and overmatched. The complaint with Brady wasn't scoring. It was that against higher talent, he was unable to function effectively both offensively and defensively. His excellent post-feeding ability made him a Self favorite in his cram the post offense. Lucas was an excellent rebounder, a smart rebounder that used positioning well. But he gave us zero rim protection in the middle. And couldn't defend above average players in the post. And couldn't jump. But his inability to offer much of anything offensively beyond being able to sometimes make open looks was a critical flaw. And we really needed something significant in the middle in two straight tourney losses where Lucas was run out there. He got the most out of what he had I think, as did Brady. Traylor, I view differently. Watching him as much as I did, I can't get over the laziness I saw. And I still can't fathom how the guy played for KU. So it wasn't all scoring.

BeddieKU23 said:

So far its looked like Dotson will be a OAD. It's super early but I cant imagine scouts are not impressed with his ability to defend, jet in the open court and run the team. Again this is just from what we have seen early but I can imagine he will only get better and more comfortable as the season goes. He is already one of the 5 most valuable players on this team and that wont be lost come spring

Eh, I still think there is a high chance he stays.

BShark said:

BeddieKU23 said:

So far its looked like Dotson will be a OAD. It's super early but I cant imagine scouts are not impressed with his ability to defend, jet in the open court and run the team. Again this is just from what we have seen early but I can imagine he will only get better and more comfortable as the season goes. He is already one of the 5 most valuable players on this team and that wont be lost come spring

Eh, I still think there is a high chance he stays.

I hope so otherwise this wont be a top 25 team next season. But I think its early to call either way and if he continues to play well and this team goes far his stock will never be higher

@BeddieKU23 I think if his jumper develops he could end up a high pick. Also, very solid chance Doke is back. Self will make things work, KU will be top 25 next year.

@mayjay Exactly. Good post. Here's my take on the whole can of worms: They take grimes out for 5+minutes, and Jayhawk World immediately goes off their rocker. Now we're supposed to believe that Marcus Garrett is now Jamari Traylor because MG got an extra 5 minutes? Huh? Marcus is a work in progress, but many of his elements he brings to the table help us win. Playing Jamari at times so much was frustrating at times when we had more talented people on the bench.Hopefully, Grimes will come to play and get his extra 5 minutes back by coming to play, and guard his man.Many of you on here are etched in stone that MG will never shoot well, and maybe you're right. But if any of you think for a second that MG now has a lock on a position as a starter over Grimes, I would kindly ask that you stay away from all sharp objects, and check yourself in immediately to a mental health care facility. Because that's way over the top. All Marcus has done is give us everything he has every game, he plays lock down defense, he hustles every play, he never complains, and his woeful shot did get in the net a few times. Shame on you people comparing him to Jamari in an insulting way. They're not all going to be stars.

No Garrett tonight. Concussion like symptoms. Rut roh

Rick Barnes. I like our chances.

BeddieKU23 said:

No Garrett tonight. Concussion like symptoms. Rut roh

Despite the nature of this thread, this really sucks!

@BShark

Will be interesting to see how we play without him. Lots of minutes for others.

BeddieKU23 said:

@BShark

Will be interesting to see how we play without him. Lots of minutes for others.

We might get to see extended minutes for Chuck or KJ...

Well then...

BShark said:

BeddieKU23 said:

@BShark

Will be interesting to see how we play without him. Lots of minutes for others.

We might get to see extended minutes for Chuck or KJ...

Well then...

Neither has shown that's a good thing yet. Time for one or both to step it up

Both KJ and Charlie played fairly well tonight. KJ was obviously frustrated and needs to stay under control but not sure KU wins without him....

KJ is just a hot mess.
I can’t think of a better way to describe him or his play so far.

jayhawkcsg said:

KJ is just a hot mess.
I can’t think of a better way to describe him or his play so far.

LOL! KU doesn’t win tonight without him.

Despite shortcomings I still like the total package of what KJ can bring to the table more than Garrett. Just my opinion.

Charlie Moore reminds me a little of Tyshawn in his apparent insistence on shooting the ball despite the obvious imprudence of such acts. And KJ does look like a “hot mess” — nice quote @jayhawkcsg. But he was key to winning. And I do love the irony of not having Garrett — does Garrett score KJ’s 8 points? Does Moore play as much? Does Garrett prevent some scoring from TN?

But we won, with both playing big minutes. With Udoka somewhat irrelevant. Just an excellent team effort.

Last night was a game, I think, that DeSousa would have made a huge difference. The type of matchup where he would have changed the complexion of the game.

Moore and KJ gave great minutes last night. KJ had a really, really good stretch from late in the 2nd half all the way through OT. Looked like he gained some confidence.

I still think KJ should see very limited minutes. But, it was nice to see that we can rely on him when his number is called. Hard to believe how deep this team is.

I was impressed with what KJ gave last night. He committed 3 quick fouls in the second half, but other than that he was really good.

KJ had nothing for Grant Williams. But...I think that will be the case for a lot of guys this year. He was definitely much better after Williams fouled out.

@Kcmatt7 Agree. Nice depth to have but he also showed me why he isn't getting minutes normally. He's a nice worse case scenario starting 3/4 next year.

@BShark

Williams leaned in every time and drew the foul and so did several of the Tennessee players; a different crew would have called a lot of those a charge. The refs were really bad and really took over the game and not in a good way; I hate it when refs want to be the stars. The best refs are the ones no one talks about after the game.

🐦 View Tweet?s=21

Good article here.

Self talks about how it’s all mental right now with Q. Thinks this time off will help.

@HighEliteMajor

Thought the same on Silvio. Very good point. Great team win. Had to battle being down for most of 2nd half.

@BShark I thought he showed a lil more athleticism last pm.

We flat out dont win tonight without Garrett's defense. I'll be honest, I'll disappointed if MG doesn't start Grimes has been lazy and flat out hasnt helped this team since Michigan State.

@kjayhawks I can't figure it out though. He's not a lazy guy.

@Crimsonorblue22 that was the recruiting spin on him, inconsistent shot and lack of effort at times. It was known, maybe he can be this seasons Newman but we are too deep to mess around with a guy that won put forth the effort in games.

@kjayhawks he didn't look lazy during the USA games. Shot wasn't always there, but he played a lot of pt and got to the basket.

@Crimsonorblue22 He is young still, plenty of time but he played very little in the second half against Tennessee and only 16 minutes tonight. It just bad deal when no part of the game he played stuck out good or bad really for like the 4th game in a row. I think we are a better team if he plays well but it all starts with him.

Grimes is just lost on D.

I agree that Garrett should start ahead of Q, but Garrett must limit his offense to driving and scoring at the rim, not shooting. In 33 min of playing time he correctly only took five shots and made two. But the misses spoke volumes about his lack of shooting ability. Garrett brings energy and heart. Bill Self loves the guy. But, please Marcus do all of us a favor and don't shoot the ball. Defend, get steals and drive the rim.

@BShark right and with his athletic ability, he should be more aggressive on offense. Maybe he just needs sometime. I trust Self and Co to help him.

@BShark he doesn't look like the same kid I saw play for USA.

@stoptheflop I thought Marcus did ok fir his talent on offense tonight, missed a few at the rim but could've easily had foul calls on them as well.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@BShark he doesn't look like the same kid I saw play for USA.

The coaching in that event was subpar.

Q has simply lost all of his confidence. He hasn’t seen in a jumper go down in games and just can’t seem to get anything postive to work in his favor . His development is going to be the key to how far this team can go in my opinion .

stoptheflop said:

I agree that Garrett should start ahead of Q, but Garrett must limit his offense to driving and scoring at the rim, not shooting. In 33 min of playing time he correctly only took five shots and made two. But the misses spoke volumes about his lack of shooting ability. Garrett brings energy and heart. Bill Self loves the guy. But, please Marcus do all of us a favor and don't shoot the ball. Defend, get steals and drive the rim.

His outside shooting makes me think the cure may be an optometrist, a la "Wild Thing."

@Woodrow That does seem to be at least part of the problem. I wonder if we run any plays for him??? His game is not suited to running a weave just to feed the post every time down the court. The coaching staff needs to help create opportunities for him to see shots go down and build confidence.

@DCHawker That might help, but he's missing wide open looks. I think he needs two years- this shaken confidence thing doesn't bode well for the NBA.

As of today Grimes looks very little like a pro prospect. More like a Euro baller. Xavier Henry would be an upgrade at this point. Hopefully all the potiental he oozed last year comes to fruition by the end of the season like other slow starters (i.e. Oubre, Alexander etc.) I cant wait until Grimes “gets it”!

@dylans

Newman...

I see Garrett as a vital piece to our success this year.

Everyone in here is correct to be critical of his offense.

But we will never find our way back to the Final Four without playing defense.

Garrett is one of the few players that even has a concept of defense right now.

Self has to teach defense and he has to put some defense on the floor. Right now, this is one of the poorest defensive teams I've seen from Bill at Kansas. Hopefully, they'll improve dramatically over the year!

As of right now, MG may be the only player that has bought in to "Self ball" (defense).

By the way, I can easily see us lose a couple before conference play. This team is one big chaotic mess right now! We haven't established anything on either side of the ball yet. Right now, Self will put anyone on the floor that will step up and fill in any of the holes in this team, on either side of the ball. Look, we've had to rely on a blistering Vick just to stay in games! What happens when he goes cold?

Right now, Self has to put any player on the floor who can execute ANYTHING! That is how loose this team is. We can't even smack down cream puff teams with Doke in the paint. Gheez.

But I'm thrilled watching Vick finally showing us his wares. He still has other skills he's not showing us. I'd like to see him take it to the rack more.

Have we even run our backdoor alleyoop yet this year? Wow... Self's calling card.

@drgnslayr Booyah! Nice post...

drgnslayr said:

Have we even run our backdoor alleyoop yet this year? Wow... Self's calling card.

This team is one of the least athletic teams Self has had. Grimes and Dedric do not have very good ups. Dotson is athletic but small. Doke is just big. Vick is the only top tier "athlete" on the active roster. Ochai looks to have soe serious athletic chops but we have to wait to see it develop.

@BigBad Like Vick, I think Garrett is quick enough and athletic enough to execute the backdoor catch and dunk. But, currently on offense Garrett's job is to execute the offense, not wait along the baseline for the backdoor pass.

Garrett was "without a doubt" Self's potg against Wofford. Interesting.

Garrett really did play well, I thought. Somehow I don't throw up when Self says that (like I did when he referenced JT in those situations -- as if we weren't watching the game).

Could Udoka really have been the potg? Meaning, that due to his absence we played better as a team?

God how I want DeSousa eligible. I'm beginning to believe that in order of importance, 1) DeSousa being eligible to play and 2) Grimes moving to his potential are the two biggest items for a national title.

Am I wrong in believing that I'd rather have DeSousa than Udoka?

I'm confused.

@HighEliteMajor I don't think its Doke, I think its the 4 guard line up that looks better. We used that line up against Tennessee in OT (Doke was fouled out) and it looked better. We also used it against Marquette with Doke in and it looked good. I think its fairly obvious at this point, that this team needs 4 guards on the court. I'm ok if Self wants to start Doke and Dedric and play 2 bigs here or there but the ball movement and overall play has been considerably better with 4 on the floor. I really don't think there is an argument otherwise , watch tape of both and its a no brainer.

Four. Guard. Line-up.

BShark said:

Garrett was "without a doubt" Self's potg against Wofford. Interesting.

His defense was really really good.

@KirkIsMyHinrich he can really hit the boards, better than K.J.

Garrett and KJ are of similar height, and that is where the similarities end.

K.J. is a better shooter.

This thread aged really well. Great job OP.

dylans said:

Where’s Q gonna go juco ?!? 😂 The kid’s hardly ready for NCAA let alone the NBA. I hope that delusion has left his skull, but you never know.

Bill doesn't even trust to put him out in key situations now and is totally correct.

Q didn't enter in the 2nd half until very late. He promptly got lost on D and Self pulled him back out. Self can't afford to play Q big minutes.

Nice to see Garrett earning his keep on both ends of the floor now.
Maybe by next year he’ll even hit a free throw or two! :)

@BShark where is jayhawkfan2?

@JayHawkFanToo where are you ?

@approxinfinity Last online 25 days ago. He might be on a federal contract stranded overseas by the shutdown....

KirkIsMyHinrich said:

Dedric was the best player tonight. Dotson was 2nd. Vick was 3rd.

Whoa...I get everyone's reservation about Garrett, but COME ON. He deserves some credit. If this kid doesn't stay aggressive, KU loses and that's a fact. He was every bit as good as Dotson, but the nice fact is they came together and pulled off a win. In spite of our ignorant comments. His FTs have suffered lately.

I get the Self assessments on favs. He drives me crazy too. But we don't have a stable of guys to choose. Agbaji is still adjusting, but rapidly. Freakin' THT took him to school. I thought ISU did a great job creating mismatches, smart and genius from Prohm. But, KU won.

I think Self is going game to game. He just doesn't have the luxury of having those constants each game as in the past. I really believe other than DLaw, Vick and Dotson, he's simply game to game. I'd throw Garrett in the mix. But Ochai, Grimes, and even Garrett is still a work in progress. But we all know Self is going with tried and true Garrett. Right now, his D is what's getting him the PT. Self will keep playing with Grimes each game.

ISU sped Ochai up too fast and it showed. His freshmen motor fouled him out. I know many were appreciating his aggressive play, but he can't do that because it hurts the team. If Ochai and Grimes can hit their cylinders, we will be really hard to beat. Ochai shows flashes as a freshman.

Oh and...FREE SILVIO, as my cry falls on deaf ears and my fingers tirelessly type with wasted energy, SMH.

May I state the obvious to everyone? DLaw is a flatout stud. The NBA scouts must have been frothing at the mouth.

@truehawk93 Two huge things with this team. First, much, much better to have a guy like Agbaji that you need to dial back. Intensity and aggressiveness are big deals here -- this team, as much as any team under Self, needs that. Oddly, I was fine with him fouling out. I would have rather had him in the game, but this will help him learn and adjust. He needs to play. Second, Garrett deserves incredible credit for how his game has improved. It has all the earmarks of a coach in his ear continually telling him to drive, get to the rim, be aggressive -- and then finally it sinking in. He's attacking to the rim, and not falling away, sliding off, etc., which had limited that element of his game before.

@truehawk93 That was a really old post you replied to. This thread is from early December. I bumped it back up to call out my own bad take.

@HighEliteMajor I 100% agree with Ochai, but he's no good with 5 fouls. I also get the the correlation with QG in too. Its unfortunate, but when they put it all together, it's going to be a thing of beauty.

I am both shocked by Garrett's new found offensive mentality as well as Q's inability to play defense (or really even ability to impact the game at all).

Ok - so a hall of fame coach and professional college b-ball analysts have been extolling Garrett for weeks for obvious reasons. I don’t know a ton about the finer points of the game, but instinctively from game 1 of this season I never liked it when Garret was on the bench... I always felt better when he was in game. recently Self said the same thing.

coach has asked him to work on scoring more in addition to all the other things he does. And he is scoring more, despite the fact that he isn’t a natural scorer.

I get that people here will all have differing opinions on guys- it’s the essential nature of fan sites. ( I didnt like Grimes early on for the simple reason that he was considered a OAD - no other rational reason really. Just a visceral dislike. I am trying very hard to warm up to him. If he somehow turns his season around I will get on the Grimes bandwagon)

But never really understood the knocks by some here on Garrett. It felt wrong and biased (on his scoring as the most important metric ) and misguided.

Well now he’s scoring. And playing D. And boxing out. And assisting. And positioning himself on the court just like the coaches want him to.

Give the guy a break already

Bill mentioned that Dotson helped create some of these looks for Garrett. Dotson penetrates a bit which forces a bit of help and gets Garrett the space he needs.

Self's use of Garrett hearkens back to JJ a bit and in some ways, Garrett is kind of like a mini-JJ.

Bosthawk said:

Ok - so a hall of fame coach and professional college b-ball analysts have been extolling Garrett for weeks for obvious reasons. I don’t know a ton about the finer points of the game, but instinctively from game 1 of this season I never liked it when Garret was on the bench... I always felt better when he was in game. recently Self said the same thing.

coach has asked him to work on scoring more in addition to all the other things he does. And he is scoring more, despite the fact that he isn’t a natural scorer.

I get that people here will all have differing opinions on guys- it’s the essential nature of fan sites. ( I didnt like Grimes early on for the simple reason that he was considered a OAD - no other rational reason really. Just a visceral dislike. I am trying very hard to warm up to him. If he somehow turns his season around I will get on the Grimes bandwagon)

But never really understood the knocks by some here on Garrett. It felt wrong and biased (on his scoring as the most important metric ) and misguided.

Well now he’s scoring. And playing D. And boxing out. And assisting. And positioning himself on the court just like the coaches want him to.

Give the guy a break already

Just to make sure, this is a really old thread. Basically everyone here has had nothing but praise for Garrett for weeks. Likely a full month.

I mean, to be fair to all of these old takes, most guards who can't hit the 3 at 25% or free throws at 50% aren't going to be very good guards. But he is certainly an outlier in this scenario.

@Kcmatt7
Yep - good point, it is a quite old thread which has been added to. I guess I’m a bit too thin-skinned when it comes to Garrett. I love the guy despite his shortcomings.

Now I gotta try to warm up to Grimes and not be biased :) So far just disappointed in him.