🏀 KuBuckets Archive

How many of you would have left college after one or two years to make say 1 to 200 k a year playing a sport? You remember your 19-20 yr old self? Who’s advice were you most influenced by ? Parents, relatives, college or high school mentors? Friends? Significant others?
It’s a question that most here I’m guessing never really had to answer.

I honestly couldn’t even fathom leaving for a job. College was more than learning, It was a great almost essential time on so many levels. A huge time in my life. Fun, experiences, friends, opening your mind (in more ways than one) that impacted the rest of my life.

But of course I sure as hell didn’t play any d1 sport.

I can answer this to some degree. I was working on a master’s and was offered a full time job in Washington, DC as a political appointee. I ended up declining (I was 22 at the time) and finishing my master’s at KU. Sometimes I wonder how things would’ve been different had I gone that route but haven’t regretted it. I asked literally everyone I could about what I should do. Family, friends, mentors, coworkers, and the like. But you just have to think it through on your own and make the choice you feel and think is right.

@Bosthawk 1 or 2 K? Probably not. Now 1 or 2 M? That's a different proposition altogether!

@wissox Well, invoking the word “privilege” now has different connotations. It is used by the left as an attack tool. And my point is not to confuse privilege with fairness/unfairness. Saying privilege implies something unjustified, or the fault of the one it may favor.

The benign usage of the term has long sense passed.

@HighEliteMajor I think you're partially right, some will just throw the word around, I've experienced enough of life up close to those without privilege to understand how it's being used and agree. Notice I didn't use race as my experience has been that anyone raised in poverty experiences many of the same things, although race can complicate it.

No one with privilege did anything wrong nor do most who use the term imply. However many who hear privilege in reference to themselves feel attacked and therefore lash out and whine about it being “unfair” to them. If you can pay for your kids school than pay for it. Some can’t. It has nothing to do with you. Understanding privilege is about recognizing that not everything is about you. Everyone encounters different circumstances so the concept of fairness is a fiction. Strive for equity not equality and we can lift everyone up. Some people don’t even have boots to lift themselves up by. And no the reality isn’t that any kid who works hard can get to college. Check the college going rate for foster kids. Find that number and tell me privilege isn’t real or is an attack tool by the “left,” the biggest enemy of them all apparently.

wissox said:

@HighEliteMajor Privilege sounds like baloney until you look at it from a different perspective.

I used to be a pull yourself up by your bootstraps type of person. Then I got a big dose of the hurdles that young people who grow up in poverty have to overcome to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Yes I am a product of privilege because I had a mom and dad who did a lot for me to nurture and love me and support me in whatever I wanted to do. They had the means to do so. That makes me privileged.

Now take away my father. Now I've lost one very good role model. I've lost a good provider. I've lost a man who taught me to be a man. Single moms, or single dads, obviously can make up for a lot of that but it's more difficult. Missing one parent, you're less privileged.

Now put yourself in a substandard school. You have no choice. Economics have you in that district where textbooks are 10 years old, and stadium lights explode during games, and metal gates are set up in hallways, and where schools go all year without a math teacher for 9th graders because they can't hire one. When you avoid going to a school like that you're privileged.

Go home from school and mom comes home from a long day of low wages and stops by the corner store to pick up some substandard prepackaged food without fresh veggies and fruits because you live in a grocery desert. The good stores are a long busride away. When you have good quality food to eat on a regular basis you're privileged.

When you walk through an airport and security doesn't whisk you away from the president you're walking with, that's privilege. Ask Condoleeza Rice about that one.

I could go on. Please understand what people are talking about when they say privilege. Goodness the opposite term has been in our lexicon for a century or more, 'underprivileged'. I'd guess you've called kids underprivileged at some point. Really no difference.

This is much nicer than what I was thinking yesterday. Good stuff.

Suffice to say it's much more difficult for some than others and there are definitely people that work hard their whole life and end up with very little to show for it.

@benshawks08 Well, in this political climate the "privilege" baloney is used regularly by the left to inspire class warfare. Your response is classic leftist.

Initially, so it's obvious, when leftists start with the claim that someone lashes out, it's to try to paint their point of view as emotional, or irrational, wherein the truth is that the leftist point of view is based on emotion and lacks logic. An age old approach from the libs.

Next, you say to strive for equity. What in America is anyone prohibited from doing, earning, or achieving? NOTHING. That's the answer. Ah, but let's ignore that.

But of course, the term equity you choose is synonymous with fairness (which you said is a "fiction"). When you focus on fairness (equity), that's a losing proposition. The key is creating opportunity, which we all have. Everywhere. But it will never satisfy the leftist as long as others have more. That's the rub. It will never be enough. No, the left is the enemy because the left wants to take what made America great -- hard work, competition, achieving -- and cast that aside in favor of ever creeping socialistic concepts. That's the battle line.

And I'm sorry, some folks are smarter than others. Some work harder. Some don't work hard. Some won't achieve. Some will lose in life. Some will win substantially -- Like Ben McLemore. Ben has won because of hard work, perseverance, and because of his God given athletic ability. Is that fair .. er, equitable? Why should Ben get millions because he can play basketball? I can't do that.

Your mindset is one that inspires victimhood.

Every kid can go to college that works hard. You are completely wrong, and to say otherwise is complete disinformation (unless you qualify it by saying that your statement includes those who simply aren't smart enough -- I'm sure you'll concede college isn't for everyone in that instance). Getting a high school degree is not a "right" -- the opportunity to get the degree is what is provided. Some kids aren't smart enough, or don't do the work. Same with college. But college is the next level. And many are just more cut out to do other things instead of school work.

Just look at the KC area for example. There is not one person who can't work and go to a junior college. None. Junior college is dirt cheap. They provide payment plans. You can get student loans if absolutely necessary. Tuition and books and JCCC is less than $2000 as semester for a full time student.

A link below for hard workers in KC -- you know, the kind that "hard work: that gets a 2.5 GPA and go to school 95% of the time. Basically, just have a brain and show up to school and you get 2 years free.
https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article85920552.html ↗

And that leads to a four year degree. The federal government hands out grants to low income folks like candy, and loans the same way. Oh, I know that's not fair that the loans have to be paid back. So don't tell me a kid that works hard can't go to college.

It funny, you take the time to mention the "college going rate for foster kids." Uh, free tuition for foster kids in Kansas. A quote from the article below, "This is a dream come true for me,” said Jasmine Martin, who grew up in foster care and will soon start summer classes at the University of Kansas. “I had thought there was no way to go to college.”

http://ccweek.com/article-5650-kansas-law-gives-free-tuition-to-foster-children.htm ↗

In addition to the federal money, Kansas has multiple "grants" -- free money. Further, at most schools, there are work study programs where school jobs are given first to those that have a financial need.

http://www.collegescholarships.org/grants/states/kansas.htm ↗

An important point is that kids can work while going to college. They can go part time. Folks forget that. They may not be able to finish in 4 years. Maybe it takes six. Life isn't "fair." But don't tell me they can't go to college and get a degree.

In Missouri, here's a quote on the free tuition program - "In the 2014-15 school year, 13,142 students participated in the program at a cost to the state of $33.3 million." Question, who pays the $33.3 million? This is just a quick example.

So, I'm sorry, it is about me and MY money. The money I earn. The money you want. Because when you say others can't pay for school, who pays for that? You claim I "whine." So let's be blunt. It is highly likely, if you are a teacher, that I pay more in just my federal taxes each year than you earn in a year. Is that fair? Why is it that you get to pay so much less in taxes than me solely because my hard work and labor produces more earnings? The concept of fair has been warped. And of course my tax rate goes up as I earn more. But that's fair (er, equitable) in the mind of a leftist.

That is the money you want. You know, to "lift everyone up" as you say. To take my hard work and take it from me and my family. So this applies to those that are the leftists targets everywhere. Quite frankly, that attitude is permeates the teaching ranks like a cancer -- a lot of reasons for that, but one is that teachers just don't earn much (and many that don't earn much have an easy time passing out other folks' money), another is that the teaching profession draws folks that aren't inspired to compete in the first place. Teachers don't compete like the rest of us. Heck, the teachers' unions fight any accountability for teachers. And that general attitude gets shifted to our children. I dealt with it with my kids in school, getting a steady diet of liberal tripe from folks that never held a real job outside of a school building. That's just reality.

Your heart is in the right place. In fact, your heart and dedication are admirable. The problem, as I see it, is when folks' with heart and dedication then want to continue to take more from me, and my family, all in the name of "equity."

@HighEliteMajor cool.

@HighEliteMajor If you start thinking about grants as an investment in the future of young people maybe it will be less hurtful to you when people who aren’t you get them. You have money to invest in your kids future. Others don’t.

Are some kids not worthy of investment because of the financial plights of their parents? If your answer to that is yes and you truly believe your kids deserve better than other kids than I’m really done with this conversation. If it’s no than do you have other suggestions on how those kids should “pull themselves up by their bootstraps”?

You are certainly correct in pointing out that most states have programs to support kids in the foster system to get into and pay for college. Yet 3% of all foster kids end up with a degree. Are you saying those kids are just not smart and don’t work hard? Or is it possible that their unique situation makes life for them harder than it is for other kids? I’m really not trying to be pointed with these questions. I genuinely want to understand what your answers are.

Also I’m just going to ignore the “those who can’t do, teach diatribe.” I’ve seen too many folks who lost their job during after the 2007 crash come into the classroom thinking they could do this easy job while they looked for “better work” absolutely fail and quit crying in the middle of the year. And just so we are clear most of those folks were men who came from the business world. Guess I did a bad job ignoring it. Must be because I’m a lazy leftist teacher who can’t cut it in the real world. I know this cuts my very real attempt to engage with you on this topic but come on man.

I’m also curious about what period in America’s history you think really made it so great.

@benshawks08 Your last comment tells me all I need to know. Please take notice, as leftists forget, that this world would be deep in the darkness of authoritarianism without our great nation. The pathetic defamation of our country by the left is why you are the enemy. It makes me sick that you teach our kids. But this stuff is easy to diagnose.

And don’t tell me about how hard it is to teach. My neighbor leaves after I leave, is home by 4:15, doesn’t work in the summer, has enumerable sick and personal days. Gets holidays like a 16 year old student. Snow days. And when he had issues at a school, insulted his boss, he wasn’t fired, he got moved to another school. Not the real world my friend.

My wife taught for 10 years. So I saw this stuff first hand.

A good chunk of teachers are very lucky that they get paid lower wages per the free market. If their wages get artificially inflated, some that choose other professions will compete for those jobs and that’s the last thing the teachers unions want. And of course, the teachers unions lobby hard to keep other professionals from being able to transition and teach about things they actually know about.

It’s just sickening that our country is viewed with contempt by folks like you.

@HighEliteMajor couldnt agree more my friend, very well said. Taxation is theft, if I didnt pay taxes on literally everything, my wife could just stay home.

@HighEliteMajor Um... I was genuinely asking what period of America’s history you viewed most fondly not saying America isn’t good. But ok. I’ll continue to care about other people’s kids as much as you care about your own whether it makes you sick or not.

You can tell me how easy teaching is when you do it for a year.

I’m curious why you feel the constant need to attack any question or view that doesn’t line up with your own. Is it insecurity? Arrogance? Or is that just your preferred method of communication? It’s certainly not convincing so if your goal is to change my mind you might want to try a different strategy. I’m just trying to figure out where you’re coming from and it seems like you want me to feel bad for doing a job that I love for 40% of what you make. I’m not angry so I’m not sure why you are. Thoughtful honest discussion too much to ask for?

@HighEliteMajor Are you also saying that unions prevent people from teaching? I thought in America no one is prevented from doing anything they want to do?

One more thing if I’m not in the real world as a teacher, what world am I in? Your neighbor sounds like a crappy teacher. Those exist. My partner had a terrible CEO once. Maybe all CEOs are bad? Or maybe that’s not how that works. Basketball coaches get fired and move to new schools all the time. Do they also not work in the real world?

@benshawks08
1. The reason I am so passionate about this is that folks like you constantly want to tear down America. You whine, you complain, you desecrate what is truly important. The foundation of everything that creates opportunity. Your view point and perspective is a threat to this nation's existence. The more it infiltrates our society, the more we deteriorate. There is nothing more important. Arrogance about America? Agreed.
2. You don't want "opportunity." Leftists don't want opportunity. They want the result without the hard work. They want it given to them. Because if they can't achieve like others, it's unfair, or not "equitable."
3. Nothing is more evident than your treatment of the foster kids graduating college. You whine about that issue, then when someone points out that, no, they actually get that opportunity and get it for free, we learn that your comment on the graduation rate really is the issue. Not opportunity, but result. We can't graduate for them. We can't do their work. And although I'm sure you'd rather just give them a government grant to live off the rest of their lives, we can't just give them a degree. That's up to them. But again, that's not good enough for a leftist. Because you blame everything except the individual. And when folks can't achieve, they're deserving of being given something.
3. The real world, and follow along here .. the real world is where you have to compete against others. You know, the kind of competition, and success/failure that did make a America great. The kind that teachers, a strong general rule, do not take a part in.
4. A client of mine taught and went to be a public relations manager for a local company. He went back to teaching because, as he said, he couldn't stand the "rat race." Just an anecdote is all.
5. Funny you mention the union thing .. the point there is that your little union works very hard to create great impediments to becoming a teacher. That's so professionals in other walks of life have to take significant time to do something they could otherwise do quite easily -- teach a class. No, not everyone could do it well. But to make a doctor, who teaches med students at a medical school, take multiple hours of classes to teach high school students biology is just laughable. It's because the union is doing what it's members want .. protect their jobs. That's not competition. You live in a bubble.
6. No, my neighbor is not a bad teacher (to the best of my knowledge). In fact, I understand kids love him and he's a good teacher. His is a normal teaching workday. By a bit after 4:00, our high school's parking lot is cleared out. He did something that would cause termination in the real world. In teaching, no, he gets transferred.
7. Your examples on the CEO and basketball coach, of course miss the point. They compete and lose their jobs. Teachers, uh, not so much. The comparison was helpful.
8. The teacher part about it, you brought into it. And then, you want to spend my money. Others' money. But that's the leftist mantra.

@Bosthawk

You pose an interesting question. The thing is, lots of "real world" jobs are starting to offer those same things.

For instance, I am a lawyer as I have said before. Many law schools are now offering programs that allow undergraduate students to start law school early if they are enrolled in a special program through that university. This allows students to save time in college if they want to move on to law school. Even before that, most every high school now offers opportunities to get college credits while in high school, allowing kids to spend much less time in college. And both college and graduate schools are offering more internship and externship opportunities.

The point is, many students do in fact have the opportunity to leave the traditional schooling environment early to work, and many are taking that opportunity. Several law schools are introducing pilot programs now that allow a student to take their final semester online while living/working in the region that they want to ultimately practice in. Now obviously, those students still have to graduate, but they are not on campus in the traditional sense.

My point is that these opportunities are offered constantly. I had friends in college that took jobs based purely on the fact that their new employer would pay for them to complete their undergraduate or graduate degree. They accepted the job and left the traditional "college life" to work and make money. Now granted, most were juniors or seniors, but the result was the same. And it usually wasn't for hundreds of thousands of dollars, either.

@HighEliteMajor Now we are getting somewhere even if you still haven’t answered most of the questions I posed. You are correct that opportunity matters but As you’ve pointed out multiple times not everyone gets the same opportunity. It’s just not possible. If we think about basketball, As a 5’8” male with a limited vertical I’m not going to get the SAME opportunities as someone 6’4” with a 45” vertical. Just so I’m abundantly clear, I’m not advocating that I should. America is the land I would say more than anything else of individualism. And that’s what allows you to make this argument about opportunity. You can always point to a few people who make it out of poverty or overcome certain obstacles. So as long as they can do it, why can’t everyone else?

The problem is though, that despite certain individuals successes, you can still fairly accurately predict a persons economic future of you know their zip code and their race. There are MORE opportunities in certain communities than others. That does not mean there is no opportunity for anyone but people with privilege are provided with more options. More choices. More fall backs and back up plans. To see this opportunity gap you have to look at results. As a basketball fan I can hope we agree that results do in fact matter more than opportunity.

The people in power in this country have implemented systematic oppression at all levels since it’s founding. That does not mean there aren’t great and amazing things about America. As you pointed out and I agree everyone (for the most part) has at least some opportunity to improve their station in life with hard work. That’s INCREDIBLE and not true everywhere around the globe. But thinking America is great shouldn’t prevent someone from pointed out how it could be better. The founders of the country built in a system to allow for that constant change. It’s what government is supposed to do.

But it can’t be ignored that there are others who improve their station or maintain it without hard work. Those who manipulate systems to give themselves an unfair advantage. Just as Coach K manipulates the refs so his team has 2 fouls called against it in 14 minutes of intense basketball. There’s nothing in the rules that prevent K from using his prestige and power to intimidate refs into making things go his way. Unfortunately human nature is to hold on to power. There have been loads of studies that demonstrate once a person has power they become significantly less empathetic to others and more willing to break rules or create new ones to maintain their power. But just because it’s our natural instinct doesn’t mean it’s the best way to live.

To your point about the real world we have some fundamental disagreements. I think there are lots of places in the real world where cooperation is valued over competition. Sports is not one of them obviously. It sports, despite the many metaphors claiming so, are not life. One persons success in life does not necessarily doom another to lose. It’s not a zero sum game.

My hope is that you can read and think about some of what we are both writing with an open mind. That’s my goal in this conversation. I want to think more deeply about this topic and understand where you are coming from. In doing that I’ve tried not to label you or make any assumptions about who you are as a person beyond what you’ve put on the page. I’m sure I’ve not been 100% successful in that attempt but it has been my goal.

Regarding the “normal teaching day” I’d be curious if you expanded your network of teachers you were familiar with what you would find on that topic. In my experience at a school for the last 11 years, most educators work about 9-10 hours a school day and then take a significant amount of work home with them, whether that be grading, planning, or in my case writing 42 letters of recommendation this year for my students who don’t have access to the connections some of their peers have. Add onto that coaching (yes there is a stipend that if you calculate $/hr usually comes out to about $7-15 per hour) and you have a pretty full schedule. Most of the teachers I know are ok with that not because they think that’s what they are worth but because they find the job provides worth because does good for the world and helps others. All motivation factors that have little to do with money or competition.

Some interesting stuff from Kyle Korver on Privilege in Basketball.
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/kyle-korver-utah-jazz-nba ↗

@benshawks08 thanks for sharing!

@benshawks08 I wish absolutely everyone in the world was required to read Korver's essay. I join @Crimsonorblue22 in thanking you for sharing.