🏀 KuBuckets Archive

I'm hopeful. We had a really great freshman class this year. We bring in another great freshman class (at least so far) next year. High quality guards and energy bigs. Suited for modern ball. That being said, I'd like to do some comparison of Self players vs. Bennett players prior to this years class.

DIAKITE OR SDS

Diakite - 4 star recruit. Went to Virginia over Baylor, NC State, Loyala and Okie State. https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2015/mamadi-diakite-3416 ↗

SDS - 5 star recruit. Went to KU over Florida, Illinois, Louisville and Maryland. https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2018/silvio-de-sousa-2757 ↗

Both energy bigs. Which would you rather have baggage and all, knowing what you know now? What if Diakite stays another year and SDS never plays again?

HUFF AND SALT or UDOKA, DEDRIC AND KJ

Jay Huff - 4 star recruit
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2016/jay-huff-774 ↗

Jack Salt - 3 star recruit, no other schools
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2014/jack-salt-30151 ↗

Udoka - 4 star McD All American
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2016/udoka-azubuike-917 ↗

I'm going to posit a 2-for-1 here. If you want, we can make this a 2 for 3...throw in KJ a ? star recruit, and Dedric, a 4 star recruit, each of which you get 1 year and then then they leave.

Now I know nobody could foresee Udoka being so injury prone, but even if he were healthy, I ask... do you want a giant McD with broken form and only back to the basket game... Someone who likely expects starter minutes, someone you promise starter minutes... Or do you want a giant back to the basket only big with broken form who doesn't mind sitting out entire games and is ready to be the match up guy when his number is called (Salt)?

And as for Huff vs Dedric & KJ, do you want a guy that plays within the gameflow and will do whatever is needed of his team to win games (Huff), and shoots 45% from 3 and doesn't mind sitting out entire games, or 2 guys that expect major minutes and major touches/shots and seldom play defense?

One more comparison.

HUNTER, JEROME OR GUY or MALIK

Malik Newman - 5 star recruit, transfered to Kansas. Great tournament run the one year he was on the floor for us.
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2015/malik-newman-1896 ↗

We really could have used him this year, but gone. Once a 5 star seeking fortune, always a 5 star seeking fortune?

Deandre Hunter - 4 star
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2016/deandre-hunter-2031 ↗
Ty Jerome - 4 star
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2016/ty-jerome-926 ↗
Kyle Guy - 4 star
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2016/kyle-guy-1251 ↗

Hunter and Jerome are likely gone because they are projected lottery and late 1st round respectively. Guy is likely staying because he is not. All three had moments of dominance in the tournament.

Malik was content leaving undrafted. Why? In my mind, I'd rather have the guy that stays until his stock is as high as it's going to be. Why even bother with a 1 year (+1 year practice guy) rental?

Malik to Kansas in 2016-2017. Same year that UVA was snatching up these three guys.

As I said I'm hopeful. But as some, @HighEliteMajor, others have said in the past, we can absolutely be critical of the issues with recruiting that Bill Self did prior to this year's class, and only hope that he recognizes his errors and does not repeat them going forward.

Namely, I never want to make sacrifices for 5 stars again. Either they're sterling kids or HARD PASS. And I also want to put to rest the fallacy that we have to recruit 5 stars to compete for a national championship. Neither Beard nor Bennett did.

It's a great breakdown and comparison... a little bit of salt in the wound :-)

We can talk about what we wish Self had done, but we can't escape this simple reality:

Virginia = Nike

KU = Adidas

"Personally, for me, recruiting ... it's never been fun. I don't know if there are a lot of college coaches who would say recruiting is fun" -- Bill Self

What autonomy do Bill Self's assistants have in the recruiting process? Might it be akin to sending your spouse to the store to get a mental list of things you need, then being accepting of what they bring back and making it work because you know you should have gotten it your damn self?

@approxinfinity Self could also very easily be referring to having to deal with Adidas/Nike/UA in order to get recruits and not enjoying the dirty nature of recruiting.

@Texas-Hawk-10 great point. But that raises a few questions.

To what extent do you think UVA or TT pays to play? To what extent were kids directed there by the shoecos? To what extent were the kids paid to play under Self at Orel Roberts or Tulsa? To what extent did the Shoecos direct kids there? How much less fun has recruiting gotten for Self over time?

Getting good players that stay multiple years is the key. Look at UNC and Nova during their titles. KU's player retention hasn't been great.

approxinfinity said:

@Texas-Hawk-10 great point. But that raises a few questions.

To what extent do you think UVA or TT pays to play? To what extent were kids directed there by the shoecos? To what extent were the kids paid to play under Self at Orel Roberts or Tulsa? To what extent did the Shoecos direct kids there? How much less fun has recruiting gotten for Self over time?

TTU is one of the Under Armour key teams. Their recruiting has ticked up since the switch combined with Beard coming in. They’ve definitely seen an uptick in the talent coming through the door.

UVA is still an East Coast ACC team. If kids get paid to go to Nebraska, no doubt in my mind they get paid to go to Virginia.

BShark said:

Getting good players that stay multiple years is the key. Look at UNC and Nova during their titles. KU's player retention hasn't been great.

We have a winner...like ‘08

"Namely, I never want to make sacrifices for 5 stars again. Either they’re sterling kids or HARD PASS."

That settles it then. No more 5 stars.

approxinfinity said:

@Texas-Hawk-10 great point. But that raises a few questions.

To what extent do you think UVA or TT pays to play? To what extent were kids directed there by the shoecos? To what extent were the kids paid to play under Self at Orel Roberts or Tulsa? To what extent did the Shoecos direct kids there? How much less fun has recruiting gotten for Self over time?

The difference is the amount of money involved. There's probably very few cases of someone not taking something at any of these schools. The exceptions would likely be hometown kids or lifelong fans.

Mitch Lightfoot is the only current KU player I would reasonably believe didn't take anything to come to KU.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Ochai?

@dylans Definitely possible. But MoKan Elite isn't exactly known for being a clean organization.

@dylans Ochai grew up in KC, parents played at another school, sister plays for Texas. He didn't have any real direct KU connections other than growing up the KC area. As @Kcmatt7 noted about MoKan Elite, that's always been a Nike program and their elite players have always gone to Nike schools. Agbaji is the only MoKan player I'm aware of that ended up at KU.

Mitch was a born and bred Jayhawk. Mitch could have easily gone on to star at a Mountain West program and been an all-conference performer in that league. Instead, he chose KU knowing he was going to play fewer minutes than other places and possibly never be a major factor in the rotation.

Mitch is the lone Jayhawk on the current roster that I would believe is clean in regards to beneifts.

@Texas-Hawk-10 🤔 I’m glad that’s not my mindset yet. When it is I’ll completely stop watching. This years bs has taken a lot of my enthusiasm away. The team sucked from a rah-rah standpoint, only Mitch and Ochai seemed to be big KU fans coming in (Devon and McCormack will leave as KU fans, but I don’t think they arrived that way). I need many multi-year players in order to give a shit.

“Once Kansas offered, we sat down as a family, and I knew that was the place,” Agbaji said. “What else are we waiting for?”

Agbaji, who is unranked on Rivals and ranked No. 328 at 247 Sports

I wonder how much money it takes to get an instant commitment of the 328th ranked player?

I've been a Kansas fan since childhood but have lived in Charlottesville for the past 5 years. If I ever have posted about Virginia basketball I usually get the same old "But its so boring to watch!" As basketball fans I think we can all appreciate excellence where we see it, and now that UVA has won the 'ship it's good to see their style of play on the pedestal for at least a brief moment. Some say that the game doesn't have as much flow, but I always thought that Virginia's games go by quicker, there are less fouls and turnovers to make the game feel so staccato or interrupted. Virginia was ranked #1 in fewest turnovers this year (Kansas at #225), and #6 in personal fouls committed (Kansas at #110). I'm sure these scale with possessions, and there are probably other stats to look up, but I don't think there's a need to write an essay here. It's incredibly pleasing to watch clean basketball. It's pretty cool when UVA will get 3-4 stops in a row; the crowd at JPJ goes nuts. When I watch Kansas I often think (at times!) about how sloppy our passes are or how ineffective our defense is; not every game, but there are stretches. If boring basketball can win championships without one and dones, it can't be that bad :) I'm hoping we get some of those long term 4 star players. RCJH.

@BucknellJayhawk3 The biggest issue with Bennett's system is the tempo. Playing that slow means lower scoring games which makes them more vulnerable to upsets because a hot shooting team can beat them which is how they usually go out in the tournament.

Yes, I know, I've heard it before, especially since last year... they can't win in March :)

It's simple .. the more time involved in a game, the more likely the better team will prevail. A shorter game, fewer possessions, decreases the margin for error, i.e., more susceptible to the upset. Not surprisingly, VA is the only 1 seed to lose the 16. They fit the mold of the type of team one would expect to be susceptible. It was the same thing we were concerned about with KU when Self liked the 59-56 slugfests. But that doesn't mean that such a team can't win six in a row. VA was very impressive.

@BucknellJayhawk3 You said, "When I watch Kansas I often think (at times!) about how sloppy our passes are or how ineffective our defense is; not every game, but there are stretches." ---- I would agree. Our three point defense has been for quite a while now inexplicably bad. Would never have thought that with a Self team.

I've wondered if he defends in a manner that invites the three, meaning he would rather defend close to the hoop, in sticking with his (prior) offensive philosophy that seemed to disfavor the three. Ok, not "seemed", it did.

@BucknellJayhawk3 Seems as though they know how to win in April though.....

Bennett is the front runner to land both Hauser brothers from Marquette who just announced they're transferring. Interesting turn of events. Of course Badgers are hopeful but Gard can't recruit high level players from the state. Marcus Howard announced he is staying which might be a reason they're transferring because he's a ball hog.

@BucknellJayhawk3 I wish I'd seen your post earlier. Of course Bennett was spawned in Wisconsin and the system was established long ago and perfected first in Madison. Maddening to watch at times for sure and leads to the big upsets, like Stephen Curry knocking out the Badgers before playing the Jayhawks in 2008.

Great defense with efficient offense can cause a lot of wins to stack up. When the key cogs are added like it was a few years back in Wisconsin it led to one of the most enjoyable years of basketball I've ever had, at least until their infamous demise to you know who. The KU 85-86 team still remains my favorite college team even though the refs took away a win from them too. That team just won with ease all year just like UW did a few years back.

I look at all of this as a development issue. Players need to be developed.

Why Malik left? Why would he stay? The reason for any of these guys to stay is they will become more marketable and skilled if they stay another year. There is always a risk of injury... and so they best become a lot better if they decide to stay another year. Did Malik improve while at Kansas? I think there is a good case for saying yes. Though part of it was just him feeling comfortable with his role on the team. Would he have continued to make gains staying another year? Maybe he didn't consider it enough of a factor to stay!

I don't want it to sound like I don't think our guys improve quite a bit while in Lawrence. They do. Just not to the level I would like to see. And at the level I'm talking about, I seriously doubt we lose many players early who really aren't ready to jump to some form of pro ball.

@drgnslayr nice post. At the time Malik left I wasn't thinking it was a bad decision, I think I'm biased with 20-20 hindsight and focusing more heavily on the showcase aspect of being a centerpiece at Kansas. Risk of injury and whether he had hit his ceiling certainly are important considerations. Thanks for the counterweight!

@HighEliteMajor yes, you're right about the mechanism of their susceptibility. It's a good thing for the law of averages: if you're are a top seed enough times you're bound to have an early exit but also a deep run. Self knows that taking high percentage shots and great defense can help prevent early tournament exits, so it's odd when you see a Self team thats not quite playing to the defensive standard. My favorite KU years were when we had a big ol' shot blocker down low making every game a block party and matched with a potent offense makes for great basketball.

@wissox I don't hear much about Bennett's Wisco background so it's always fun to hear the parallels. Virginia is gaining a lot of traction in the recruiting world, I have a feeling many McDonalds AA still won't come to UVA, but maybe that's a good thing. Shaka hasn't done too hot with arguably better recruiting power at Texas, but maybe that's not the best corollary. I think the best player Virginia recruited since 2015 has been ranked #30. Fun fact, last year Kehei clark, ranked #390, started and played 27 minutes a game his freshman year, and we thought Ogbaji was a diamond in the rough!

BucknellJayhawk3 said:

@HighEliteMajor My favorite KU years were when we had a big ol' shot blocker down low making every game a block party and matched with a potent offense makes for great basketball.

I have found it odd when Self has seemingly made those two elements mutually exclusive, when he has commented in the past. That somehow playing bada defense means grind it out games. You can certainly have both. But your bada defense may create few possessions due to the natural consequence of deeper shot clocks.

But more to your point, I do favor the TRob-Withey model, personally. I'm not a big fan of 4/1 unless you need to do it for your personnel.

I also believe it critical to incorporate an aggressive, perimeter defending zone so you don't have to change personnel to match a 4/1 where your bigs have trouble defending the perimiter, if you run with the TRob/Withey model.

Several posters above mentioned player development. Let's take the Quentin Grimes situation this year.

Grimes is/ will be a point guard at the next level. Self played him on the wing as an off ball shooter all year. Given that, why would Grimes come back? He's not playing at the position he will play as a pro. Maybe he can develop more, but again, he's playing out of position, so that might be limited.

If we want highly rated guys to come to KU and stay at KU, we have to consider how they are being used and if the development they are getting is helping them. It has to be mutually beneficial. We can't just expect guys to come and stay when they are not also benefiting from the basketball side of things. Remember, these kids can go to school anywhere, so we have to focus on the basketball situation.

Grimes isn't coming back because he can't improve more at his pro position because he never had the opportunity to play on the ball here. Simple as that. Dedric isn't coming back because his best shot as a pro is now. KJ probably won't be a pro, but he has graduated, so he might as well move on. Moore doesn't fit into Self's scheme very well, and likely wouldn't have played much next year, either.

@justanotherfan Not to be that guy, my friend, but the position that Grimes will be playing next year is RTP.

Riding. The. Pine.

If he can't play college ball worth a hoot, chances are he won't be playing productive minutes in the NBA. For a few years anyway. Probably three more years.

About the time it would have taken him to learn how to play ball at Kansas.

@justanotherfan My opinion, but there is no way Grimes plays PG in the NBA. A reasonable comp is someone like Wayne Selden. Has someone seen him projected as a PG? Or a comp provided by some site suggesting he's a PG?

But your point is a very good one -- "If we want highly rated guys to come to KU and stay at KU, we have to consider how they are being used and if the development they are getting is helping them. It has to be mutually beneficial."

The key for KU is the balance. First, no kid (or his dad, mom, grandma, guardian, or whoever) is going to dictate what they do. Second, any determination on role has to square with the team concept, and team needs. Third, need a commitment from the player on flexibility should injuries and situations dictate. Fourth, focus on kids that are team players and have that mindset.

Nothing is perfect though. But avoiding the presumed OAD guys like Grimes solves much of that.

As @justanotherfan alluded to, the kids have every right to work the deal that is best for them. A critical and important thing we should all remember. That is their right, it's their lives.

But KU has every right to say no and should say no when appropriate -- Selby, Wiggins, Grimes, Cliff, Diallo, et. al. I stand here and hold to the exact opinion I had back when Wiggins arrived (this alleged transcendent talent) -- we'd have been better off, a better TEAM, without him. Not because of Wiggins, but because of Self. The only presumed OAD that was worth the effort was JJ. Because he was able to fit in.

Self is the problem for OADs here. He's not a nurturer of presumed OADs. But that's because he's demanding and insistent that his way is the best way. That's why we win. Self doesn't need them. I'd rather have Self, and no OADs, than some coach getting two and three a year.

Self and presumed OADs just don't mesh as a general rule. Why fight it?

I'm with you, @nuleafjhawk, I think Grimes, overall, would have benefitted more in the long run by committing to another year, or two. Improving, working, becoming a force and a leader.

@HighEliteMajor said: "Third, need a commitment from the player on flexibility should injuries and situations dictate. Fourth, focus on kids that are team players and have that mindset."

So, I've talked about women's basketball a little bit lately, mostly because I'm starting to think that they are better ballplayers and better teammates than the men players ( another discussion... ) - but what you said up there ^^^ is so true. It makes me think of Chloe Jackson, the point guard for the Baylor Lady Bears - this year. The reason I said "this year" is because she was a senior in college and this was the first year that she had EVER played point guard. You think she was scared? Mad? Like, "hey - I'm pretty bad***, maybe i shouldn't have to play a position that I've never played before."

But she did. She listened to the advice of her coaches - and maybe no one else, i don't know. But she took on the attitude, "If this is what will help the team, then I'm going to give it my best shot." I really admire her.

Plus, it seemed to work out pretty well. Baylor Lady Bears - 2019 National Champs 82-81.

@approxinfinity

My recent "sourness" makes me sound like I think most of these 5-star recruits are just self-centered and completely not caring about Kansas and the legacy of our great school.

I don't want to judge every young man with one blanket statement.

I think the truth is, the highly-touted players are focused on what they think their future employment will be. That often runs counter to fitting the fans' and coaches' mold of what they should do.

A more extreme example was Zion this past year. Many NBA guys told him to quit in the middle of the season to "protect the goods." I've been hearing this guy might be worth $1 billion in his career. Just how much is a guy like Zion supposed to care about Duke? Enough to risk $1 billion? Yet... he did hang in there and put out the effort!

And I get down on our coaching staff for not getting these guys better coached up. All these guys come in here with their own attitudes and expectations, often conflicting considerably with our coaching staff and fanbase. But the players are the players, and they come in here usually being built up to think they are the next Messiah. Are they to blame for that? Ha... they are kids!

My idea is to focus on developing the players, even within the limited scope of what D1 coaches can coach their players. Going "all in" on development and touting that on the recruiting trail is a way to filter out kids who are looking for an easy ride and don't want to dive for balls.

Much of the atmosphere for success isn't what the coaches have to offer or that direct environment... it is the indirect environment... the school life! Do the players really desire to put in an extra 20 hours a week on their trade, late at night? If they do, they will advance their games quickly. I saw that happen with the Lawson brothers this year. Dedric stayed in the gym and worked on his trey ball... and look what happened! Can we say that about every player on our squad? That guy worked his tail off to strengthen his body and become a more-rounded player. I believe he'll make it at the next level because he has the work ethic and focus. He may not be an athletic elite, but who cares when the guy knows how to fill a stat sheet!

My way may be "old school" but it sure worked for Bennett this year! I'd like to hear his recruiting sales pitch, "if you are looking for a team where you will work your butt off, pretty much every breathing second you are on campus, consider Virginia!"

The one area of basketball, where it truly exposes players and their level of being "coached up" is rebounding. I'm back in coaching my own kids, right now, oldest is age 5. I can guarantee you he thinks more about sealing off the glass when the ball is shot than our players do. It isn't even close! Why is that? Kansas basketball is such a big deal to probably millions of people. It's something that generates millions in revenue. It's a big deal! Yet, my 5-year old kid thinks and reacts more on rebounds than the cream of the cream athletes we recruit?

Look at the NC game this year. Those teams got after it! It may not have been the game with Zion dunks... but it was two teams that were focused, coached up, and got after it! I was thrilled to watch the FF this year!

@drgnslayr that reminds me, I need to get after my kids with some rebounding practice. They're big boys. They tend to stand around a bit too much waiting for the board to fall their way.

@approxinfinity

Take their phones away from them. Tell them their future phone possession will be directly related to their rebounding stat sheet in practice.

Ha... it's a great way to tick your kids off... but if you make it a real competitive challenge, eventually they rise to the entertainment level of the competitiveness.

@justanotherfan I don't question any of those kids for leaving, other than Grimes, but I think the more important thing here isn't whether they should be leaving, it is whether they should be coming.

Bill knew Grimes wanted to play PG, why else would he have him run point on the FIBA team? And he did well there. So, it seems Bill recruited talent over need with Grimes, and I think that proved to be not good for either party.

As for Dedric, KJ, and Charlie, again I think we should be asking why we recruited them in the first place. Their decision to leave makes sense. But the risk that has been taken on in SDS with his recruiting violations, an injury prone non-FT-shooting, low rebounding Doke, a non FG shooting Garrett, a non-athletic two-year investment Dedric, ditto sidekick KJ, and a low FG% chucking undersized Charlie is enormous. Tack on an out of position disgruntled 5-star in Grimes.

Why did Bill take on so much risk all at once?

nuleafjhawk said:

@HighEliteMajor said: "Third, need a commitment from the player on flexibility should injuries and situations dictate. Fourth, focus on kids that are team players and have that mindset."

So, I've talked about women's basketball a little bit lately, mostly because I'm starting to think that they are better ballplayers and better teammates than the men players ( another discussion... ) - but what you said up there ^^^ is so true. It makes me think of Chloe Jackson, the point guard for the Baylor Lady Bears - this year. The reason I said "this year" is because she was a senior in college and this was the first year that she had EVER played point guard. You think she was scared? Mad? Like, "hey - I'm pretty bad***, maybe i shouldn't have to play a position that I've never played before."

But she did. She listened to the advice of her coaches - and maybe no one else, i don't know. But she took on the attitude, "If this is what will help the team, then I'm going to give it my best shot." I really admire her.

Plus, it seemed to work out pretty well. Baylor Lady Bears - 2019 National Champs 82-81.

Right. On. Point. It's a pure game, and uncorrupted competition.

Women are prettier and smell better, too. But that's a different topic.

Somehow, if the situation fit, I think Frank Mason would have done the same thing.

But in the men's game, the Prima Donna fringe spoils the game.

Please, go make your millions. Just go now.

Bill loves having two ball handlers on the floor. Grimes should’ve had plenty of opportunity. Instead he stood in the corner by his defender most games. Grimes never displayed his handle. His drives were usually charges. He’s not ready to be an elite point guard in college let alone the nba with his slow reaction time and lack of quickness in general.

Seems like a decent kid, but he’s misguided in thinking he’s nba ready unless he knows he will never be nba quality and needs to be drafted on HS potential before he’s full exposed.

Who signed first, d dot or grimes?

Grimes was a HS PG. Grimes played PG in the FIBA tournament last year. He's a big, athletic PG. His size and athleticism will make him money playing basketball as a PG.

Bill Self opted to use him as a floor spacer because that is what KU lacked on this roster outside Vick. With the Lawson brothers, Garrett, Azubuike, Dotson, etc. at the beginning of the season, the only two "shooters" were Vick and Grimes. When Grimes shot well, he generally played well because that was his role on this particular KU team. When he didn't, he really didn't have a fit because Dotson was the ball handler and Lawson was the primary offensive option.

Now, I will admit here that what Grimes should have done is making himself into a defensive stopper to have a secondary role on this team. Defensive stopper, floor spacer gives him a nice NBA floor as a 3 and D wing/ secondary ballhandler. But I also have to observe that it is difficult to change roles, especially for younger players.

Either way, the fit at KU for Grimes is uneven at best. He's not going to be the PG and usage as a floor spacer stagnates his own growth.

Could he have contributed in other ways - absolutely. But I firmly believe that Grimes got into his own head throughout the season when he struggled and never could reset himself in an effective way. That's on him, but also the coaching staff. But I also believed during the season that moving him onto the ball for a few games could have really unlocked Grimes' game. Unfortunately, this KU team was ultimately flawed either way, so unless Grimes became a 20/8/5 guy, I don't know if the final outcome would have been any different.

justanotherfan said:

Grimes was a HS PG. Grimes played PG in the FIBA tournament last year. He's a big, athletic PG. His size and athleticism will make him money playing basketball as a PG.

Grimes had EVERY opportunity to break down the man in front of him. He lacked the speed and ball handling to do it. On the small times he did it his BBALL IQ was too low to avoid constant charges.

@BigBad I am pretty confident that Grimes set a KU single season record for charges committed. Just speculating. Never seen anything like it. Low BB IQ was the culprit.