🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Well read from a poster off the phog and just wanted to share his thoughts. - Now let me preface this saying I KNOW there will be guys here that doesn't agree with this - - I happen to strongly agree with his thoughts on this BUT I know some people here will not - -but that's ok - -this is just other peoples views that I myself happen to agree with - -don't really think there is a winning side - -just opinions - -I don't want to get into some long pissing contest on this - it's just opinions and your entitiled like others are thiers - So any ways this is what he had to say:

Another poster made a statement about Garett - -saying was over rated. - - The posters response to this was -did he forget that Garrett was named all Big 12 Defensive team ?

Then he said this:( again I agree with this ) ok so anyways , he said I don't quite understand the angst some people display towards Garrett.. - Honestly the only thing he doesn't do well is shoot the 3. Compare that to everything that he does well:

He can guard multiple positions at a high level Ceasily the best defender on our squad )

Great ball handler for an off Guard 1.3 TO'S a game. That is lower then ANY of our Guards.

Rebounds good for his size ( 4 + rebounds per game )

Almost led the team in steals despite playing over 300 minutes less then Devon who led the team.

Before he was injured , he was playing great and finding a way to score. Not everyone can be a lights out 3 point shooter , but yet that shortcoming ( and free throws ) seem to overwhelm peoples perception of him.

Soo , let me ask you this as an example - - -Would you rather have another Grimes out there ( a player who struggled defensively , also couldn't shoot free throws , doesn't rebound their position , no steals , no blocks , almost 2 TO'S a game aas a off Guard - - -but who was streaky from the 3 ?

There it is I just happen to agree - - think he makes very , very , strong points - you don't have to agree - -just another view - other side way of looking at things. - - for me -- I'll take Marcus - - ALL DAY LONG. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

You ask to compare Garrett to Grimes. Low bar with Grimes. I only like Garrett as a player off the bench, 15 minute type guy, and situational where the game may dictate more time. We never got to see Grimes off the bench. If we are starting either of them (given how both played), that's not a recipe for an elite team.

Garrett is a solid player, he improved his driving ability and really hit his stride before his injury. He definitely needs to improve his shooting from both the line and 3 point land. But he is very valuable to our team and anyone that can’t see that, doesn’t know the game. We have had guys like Russel Robinson and Travis Releford (only shot it above 37% from 3 as a senior) that couldn’t shoot to save their lives most of their time here but played major minutes on some pretty salty teams.

@jayballer73 The line of demarcation is 33%. If he can't shoot 33% from 3, then he needs to quit shooting from 3. I think Texas Hawk is right- let him play point guard, and distribute the ball. Now, he is excellent at driving to the basket, so he is not w/o some offensive tools. If Dotson doesn't come back, and RJ doesn't sign with us, he might be the only choice. He simply has to shoot better from the free throw line ... 57% from a guard is terrible.

He also needs to learn to drive left to play the point effectively.

If I remember correctly, he was below 50% from the FT line his freshman year. If he has a similar improvement this offseason, I bet it will be hard for Bill to resist keeping him out of the starting lineup.

@HighEliteMajor

I hear you on Marcus being a limited-minute, off-the-bench guy... maybe even a 6th man... or maybe a 7th man.

However... here is a twist... we theme our next team as a "defensive team" and we start Marcus and we train our guys to win the first 5 minutes of every ball game. The focus is on heavy defense, right out of the gate, and the goal is to have a 10-pt lead at the 15 minute mark in the first half!

I've never seen a strategy like that in D1. Something so focused and so defense-oriented.

I mean... we come out swinging every game! We come out of the locker room at the start and our guys are all hopping up and down like their on PCP! Heavy initial enthusiasm!

Maybe it would carry over.

How many games do we start out on a roll? It seems like we are usually fighting back in games.

How about we start out with a knockout punch and we just keep laying on the punches!

Marcus sits at the 15-minute mark...

Then we come at them with more offense...

Moving Marcus to the bench is ideal. But first...landing the recruits to do it and then even more importantly will Bill do it?

@kjayhawks I don't know what the stats say, but give me Russell Robinson or Travis Releford ANY DAY over Garrett. He's not bad, but he's not in their league. My opinion.

HighEliteMajor said:

You ask to compare Garrett to Grimes. Low bar with Grimes. I only like Garrett as a player off the bench, 15 minute type guy, and situational where the game may dictate more time. We never got to see Grimes off the bench. If we are starting either of them (given how both played), that's not a recipe for an elite team.

No this is not what the poster was saying - his whole basis was about the hared for Garett taking about what a terrible player and player really throwing a knock on Garrett as a layer. - -I agree totally for sure not wanting him to be a starter by any means. - -Just that people talking poorly of him is un warranted - like the question that was asked - which would you rather see - with the points that were brought up - - a Grimes - -or a Garrett? - - the stats don't lie - -Garrett matched or actually was better then all. - -So with Grimes the OAD supposedly - and what was brought out on him - -you want that?- - people talk about Garret being such liability - - Grimes was even more of a liability - - -that's what this poster was bringing out. - His main question was back to his opening him trying to understand WHY all the angst against Garrett?

Statistically-speaking, Marcus isn't too far off from those two guys. He would be in their league if he was a better shooter. And neither Robinson or Releford were particularly great shooters, just okay. But Marcus' shooting is how you would expect your Center to shoot. If he could become just an okay shooter he would probably be better than Robinson or Releford.

@KirkIsMyHinrich Releford was a great shooter. His senior year, he hit 65% from 2, and 41.5% from 3. And he shot 78% from the free throw line. His overall shooting percent was 54% in 4 years. His overall 3 ball in 4 years was 37%. Releford is not a good comparison.

I didn't say he was. I said Marcus would be better than Releford if Marcus could shoot at all.

And no, Releford was not a great shooter. He was an okay shooter. 37% from 3 and 69.5% from the line is not a great shooter, sorry.

kjayhawks said:

Garrett is a solid player, he improved his driving ability and really hit his stride before his injury. He definitely needs to improve his shooting from both the line and 3 point land. But he is very valuable to our team and anyone that can’t see that, doesn’t know the game. We have had guys like Russel Robinson and Travis Releford (only shot it above 37% from 3 as a senior) that couldn’t shoot to save their lives most of their time here but played major minutes on some pretty salty teams.

Agree and I think this is what the poster was trying to bring out - - like was brought out by the poster - -Garrett actually was even more valuable then Grimes on the offensive - as it shows - took better care of the ball , and as you say before he got injured - -you wanna look at comparison on how much more Garrett drove the ball on the offensive end compared to Grimes - - - - other comparisons on the offensive end with Grimes and Garrett - - Grimes 69 TO'S for the year - - Garrett 38 - - - - Grimes in rebounding? - - For the year Grimes 89 total both ends - - -Garrett 125 - - - -Free throws at least working to even get to the line? -for the year Grimes a total of - - -- 58 - - -58 that's insane. - - -Garrett 75 and that was with a big amount of injury - how many if he would of stayed healthy? - -The poster was trying to bring out why people throwing so much shade on Garrett - - I can't answer that

And like the poster said not everyone can be a lights out 3 pt shooter - that is the ONLY area where Grimes was off and even that was really sparodic - but again just trying to figure out the haters. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG ABBY

KUSTEVE said:

@jayballer73 The line of demarcation is 33%. If he can't shoot 33% from 3, then he needs to quit shooting from 3. I think Texas Hawk is right- let him play point guard, and distribute the ball. Now, he is excellent at driving to the basket, so he is not w/o some offensive tools. If Dotson doesn't come back, and RJ doesn't sign with us, he might be the only choice. He simply has to shoot better from the free throw line ... 57% from a guard is terrible.

Not that I disagree with some of the points. - -I think in reality this poster was trying to point out how Garrett is such more of a COMPLETE all around player - -how much better then people give him credit for - which I agree with - he is not a shooter - never has been never will be but bring so much more to the table then that. - -

Ideally like on teams in years past he shouldn't need to be counted on to have to carry much of a scoring load. - Some people were talking in his defense saying His freshman yr playing when we had Graham SVI and others he wasn't counted on as much might have the players wrong but the aspect was - -we did just fine during those years with him - -It is just it was magnified this year because of the makeup of this team and then losing Doke sure didn't help. - think I'm gonna keep my Garrett. - -This upcoming year if things play out he shouldn't have to be counted on as much - -let him do his thing when he is in on the defensive end - - On the offensive end - -should take care of itself.

Nobody by far that I know of is saying he should be a starter. - I don't really think I have ever heard Garrett ever complaining about his minutes - - -He is a player that is going to do what ever it takes to help KU win - just like Mitch = he isn't one of these guys that feels he HAS to starts - - or think she deserves to start. - - - he is just not that type of kid - --ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Marcus does everything well except shoot. Full stop.

@nuleafjhawk I'll agree that hes not quite to their level yet, but he just finished up his sophomore year. Garrett averaged 7.3 ppg, 4 rpg, 2 assists and 1.5 steals last season. That's better in every category than Robinson outside of assists and points for just his senior season (7.9 as a senior). I'd take Garrett as a sophomore over Releford or Robinson in their sophomore years. Releford was a ghost until the second half of his junior season (averaging less than 4.0 ppg). People forget that Robinson was a terrible shooter himself and teams always helped off of him aswell, the difference is we had 3 or 4 that could in 08.

Let me ask this. - -When we got the commit from Marcus how many thought we were going to be getting a real offensive threat , that Coach Self recruited Marcus for his offense? - his play on the offensive end of the floor ?

Cause I'm telling you I bet if you were to ask Coach Self when he recruited Marcus he wasn't recruiting him for his offensive production. I would bet you anything - I bet IF you were to ask Coach he would tell you more then anything he would say he liked what he saw from Marcus defensively and his athleticism I could almost bet he liked what he saw athletically NOT his offense. - -Marcus is so much more of a complete player especially defensively.

We are getting offensively about what we are ever going to get out of Marcus - -he is not really a offensive player. - he gives us right at 7.5 a game - good rebounder like it says for his size - -over 4 a game

In a typical year we wouldn't have to depend on Marcus as much - there would be enough others scoring from other players where we wouldn't of needed more from Marcus then this 7.5 - - The kid we DID recruit for his ability to put points on the board - - our OAD HE is the one that didn't produce - -this wasn't a typical year like normal.

Marcus did what Marcus always has done - score a few points and lock down and exceed in others area's like Marcus has done through his life - - play lock down defense - -rebound and take care of the ball. - In a typical KU year - -you wouldn't have heard or should of heard as much on this - -But again this wasn't a typical year.

With Doke getting Hurt - - - with Vick on again - - of again - on the team - - off the team - - De Sousa being declared ineligible - -Grimes not coming trough like EVERYONE was looking for out of him - -the OAD - in normal circumstances - -I'll take Marcus 7.5 and plus 4 rebounding and taking care of the ball an his defensive skills - I'll take that and run with that all day long.

Marcus isn't a starter - never will have what it takes to be a starter - give Marcus his 10-12-15 minutes a game in back up role- -I think Marcus will be perfectly happy playing his part on this team. -Marcus is way to Valuable to be buried on the bench brings to much to the table - -Thanks guys - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Here’s how I evaluated him when he committed. Seems to have aged well. https://throughthephog.com/2016/08/02/pg-marcus-garrett-commits-kansas/ ↗

@jayballer73 I hope Dotson comes back, and we won't be having this conversation.

@FarmerJayhawk So...what do you think of RJ? He doesn't appear to shoot very well at first glance.

@KUSTEVE it’s not his strength. I think he’ll be around 35% from the college line, maybe a bit less if they move it back to FIBA distance. He’s much more a get to the rim kind of player. His frame is finally filling out so it could help his shooting some as well.

KUSTEVE said:

@jayballer73 I hope Dotson comes back, and we won't be having this conversation.

Marcus will back up well

If Marcus is on the perimeter, why not slack off to below the free throw line? He compromises your entire offensive flow if the opposing coach has a pulse.

HighEliteMajor said:

If Marcus is on the perimeter, why not slack off to below the free throw line? He compromises your entire offensive flow if the opposing coach has a pulse.

again IF we ha - -we will have better complete team more competent scorer's .ve a normal years team it isn't going to make any difference

jayballer73 said:

HighEliteMajor said:

If Marcus is on the perimeter, why not slack off to below the free throw line? He compromises your entire offensive flow if the opposing coach has a pulse.

again IF we ha - -we will have better complete team more competent scorer's .ve a normal years team it isn't going to make any difference

When one guy’s defender doesn’t have to respect him away from the basket, it can only hurt your offense as that defender can help stop penetration from other offensive players, and can really ignore the kick out to Garrett’.

@HighEliteMajor well like this whole thing was about was why people are dogging garrett so much when he brings so much to the table. - -some people can only see what they want to see and ignore others - -like I said I'm not looking to get into a pissing contest over this. I simply am pointing out as the others where this came from. - -Again I bet if you were to ask Coach Self as to why he recruited Garett - he sure the wouldn't tell you it was because of his scoring abilities.

it would be for his athleticism which shows in any stat that you would like to compare - - -if we placing blame why don't we place blame where it really belongs. - -Did our wonderful OAD fulfill what we thought we were getting in him? -NOPE

@jayballer73 Yes, I get that. Garrett is a pretty good player. No doubt. Buy he is a highly flawed player. Some may “dog him” him I guess, but the way below avg shooting is why many don’t view him as worthy of starting or playing big minutes. So maybe that’s dogging him.

It’s a critical flaw when you have a player that shoots less than 25% from three, 42% overall, and under 60% from the line.

There is a rational argument to be made that he shouldn’t even play with those poor numbers. But he is very good in other phases and has proven to be a situational difference maker.

When Self gives him too big of a role, it costs our team. That’s reality (or dogging him).

Marcus is a fantastic role player. He can’t be our first or second option on offense. He’s a great defender. It’s a wonderful thing when the eye test, and all flavors of advanced stats all match up. That’s the case of Marcus’s defense. He doesn’t turn it over, he creates turnovers, and like Self says, he’s a “security blanket.” Surround him with guys like Hampton and Tucker and he’ll be able to play to his strengths.

When Marcus stops an opposing player from scoring , that is a net positive. That HELPS US WIN.
How many time this season did I see Lawson make a bucket, then 30 seconds later let an opposing player score on him. that is a Net neutral exchange. And when Lawson forced a bad shot, and immediately get scored on, that is a net negative. I seem to remember Perry Ellis do that a lot, net neutral play. Score a bucket, get scored on.... neutral.

HighEliteMajor said:

jayballer73 said:

HighEliteMajor said:

If Marcus is on the perimeter, why not slack off to below the free throw line? He compromises your entire offensive flow if the opposing coach has a pulse.

again IF we ha - -we will have better complete team more competent scorer's .ve a normal years team it isn't going to make any difference

When one guy’s defender doesn’t have to respect him away from the basket, it can only hurt your offense as that defender can help stop penetration from other offensive players, and can really ignore the kick out to Garrett’.

ok you keep dwelling om him not being able to shoot the three - -you have never answered my question/our question. - -So I can only assume then your would love to have another incompetent Grimes right? Steals - -Garrett 43 -- Grimes 23 - - TO'S - - Garret 38 - -Grimes 69 - - - -Blocks - - Garrett 10 - - Grimes 6 - - -Rebounds Garrett 125 - - Grimes - - -89 - - - Offensive Rebounding - - Garrett 30 - - - Grimes 17 - - - Defensive Rebounding - - Garret 95 - - - Grimes 72 - - - - - Grimes supposedly a OAD - - - what was Garrett Ranked ? - - hell who knows. - - -Grimes with all his wonder a THE marvelous OAD - - how many drives did he make ? - -well good way of finding out would be to see how many free throws he attempted. - Oh yes here it is - -- -Grimes in all is glorious OAD year - - -FIFTY EIGHT ATTEMPTED - - FIFTHY EIGHT ROFLMAO , - -Garrett in playing more then 300 minutes less 75 attempts. - -So you tell me now who drove the ball more? - - Ah but yet - - Grimes what could he do on the offensive end? -- Well he could stand out and TRY to make a three point attempt - -pretty much wraps it up - -oh sure 34% - to bad he had NO consistency - - NONE

So lets see where else did Grimes help seeing as how all he could do was shoot inconsistent 3's - -that's a wrap. -- was he a better free throw shooter - -ahh well yes a whopping 2 % - - a 60% free throw shooter -- major bonus there - -problem is he couldn't get to the line - wonder why? - -cause he wouldn't drive the fricken ball that's why.

Well the what else COULD GE DO? - - -NOT A DAMM THING THAT'S WHAT - -any time the other team needed a key bucket - they would go to Grimes man - -how he defend them? - - answer - - HE DIDN'T

But hey let's just bag on Garrett the BY FAR the much , much better complete player without a doubt. - -But we wouldn't want a complete player would we? - let's get yet ANOTHER player that all he can do is jack up 3's and be so dam inconsistent -we will give him a pass and Dog Garett - -ya that works - that gets you a lot of wins.

So seeing as how you continued to ignore the question of who you would rather want - -then it must be another Grimes - ok , good luck with that - Again I would Dare anyone to ask Coach what the reason he recruited Marcus Garrett - if you ask was it was for his offense - - -lol - he would probably laugh your right of the room. - He recruited Marcus for the defensive presence - he knew exactly what he was recruiting him for - -his defensive presence and ball handling - -Grimes averaged exactly 1 more point a game then Garrett yet that's ok? - Grimes was just as much of a liability as Garett cause no dam consistency - and he gave us NOTHING on the defensive end - yet you want another Grimes - - makes perfect sense - -This is exactly what this poster was talking about - -have no idea why people want to talk so much Crap on Garett -other then the fact he can't hit a 3 pt shot - -never mind all the other aspects he does Soooo much better - he can't hit the 3 - -he is worthless right? lo - that's a fricken joke. - ok - - you stick with your OAD Grimes or whoever

Again in a normal year this wouldn't be that kin of issue - -but it wasn't that type of year - -I'm done - -I'll stick with Garrett - - the complete player who can at least drive a dam basketball to the hole. - -he knows he struggles with his J - -he has enough Basketball savvy he knows to drive the ball - not just continue to stand out there and J 3's - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

HighEliteMajor said:

@jayballer73 Yes, I get that. Garrett is a pretty good player. No doubt. Buy he is a highly flawed player. Some may “dog him” him I guess, but the way below avg shooting is why many don’t view him as worthy of starting or playing big minutes. So maybe that’s dogging him.

It’s a critical flaw when you have a player that shoots less than 25% from three, 42% overall, and under 60% from the line.

There is a rational argument to be made that he shouldn’t even play with those poor numbers. But he is very good in other phases and has proven to be a situational difference maker.

When Self gives him too big of a role, it costs our team. That’s reality (or dogging him).

Ok I truly apologize - - really sorry I didn't notice your later post - but after I seen the other poster got my crimson and blue blood toasted - again so sorry - -but yet others do REALLY do dog on Marcus - basing it only on the 3 pt shot. - that is just bullshit - -they are not looking at the other aspects of his game - -he is by far a lot more complete player then most want to give him credit for - and that is what the poster was trying to bring out - -the other aspects of his game. -Sorry - -I should of looked further guess just to tired and edgy - - -again Sorry - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73 No biggie .. you like Garrett, I like Garrett; I think the only issue between the opinions is about 10 or so minutes a game.