🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Was doing some looking this morning with the rankings of 2020 recruits. Found kind of interesting. KU is listed as in the recruits top 5 schools mentioned - - OR has had a CB pick in10 out of the top 24 recruits for 2020 - -BUT then out of the next 56 recruits - -that I stopped at # 80 - - KU is only mentioned with - - 4 times.

So that got me to thinking this , Are we spending to much time on the top elite top 20 players/recruits & not enough time trying to recruit that middle tier player? - - -Just seems our success rate with these top level elite players are at a minimum Then we are losing out on some pretty quality 2-3 yr players - -plyers that might just need a little more time but yet very good players - -solid that will stick with the program and develop.

It kind of looks like we are spending all of our recruiting efforts on the Top - -Top players and not so much for the Upper end but not elite players - ending up costing us - -which puts us in a scramble mode - running around looking like a chicken with our heads cut off scrambling to fill the roster/position needs -- Plan - -A - - B -- C. - At least at 1st glance seems to be the case - I mean from the 24th ranked player to the 80th ranked player - -not to be even listed as one of the kids top5 School that the kid is interested in? - -only 4 kids out of 56? - Something seems kind of funny there - -Are we just not recruiting these kids? - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73 are the top schools recruiting those kids?

Would love to know the cost and effort spent on the average recruit by the top 25 college brands vs KU.

https://www.businessinsider.com/schools-most-revenue-college-sports-2016-10#1-texas-am--1926-million-25 ↗

I don't think KU is doing anything different then normal at the moment. They chased a mix of top talent and rising talent in the spring. I think we'll see that continue this summer as they evaluate the class. What I don't see right now is any real clear "top targets". KU has work to do in impressing anything right now in 2020.

KU figures to replace Devon Dotson, Silvio De Sousa and graduates Azubuike & Lightfoot from the upcoming roster.

If everyone else returns that we know that only leaves KU with 6 guys. KU will need immediate talent. I think they will recruit like they have a blank slate. Nobody on the roster is safe from being overrecruited right now.

i know if Bill has them for two years or more, they will certainly be much better...http://www2.kusports.com/weblogs/tale-tait/2019/may/30/after-heavy-freshman-feel-in-2018-19-kan/ ↗ ↗

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@jayballer73 are the top schools recruiting those kids?

I didn't really focus as much on what other schools were recruiting them . - -I was just going down the line to see if we were in there top 5 choice of Schools - I'll have to see what other schools might be interested or in their top 5.

The thing is we are battling for the top elite against the Kentucky's - -The Duke's - - The North Carolina's - - The Arizona's. - - - The Michigan States -- our success rate isn't the best - then in turn in the main time were losing out on the upper to middle tier guys that are still really good players I thinking possibly because we just ARE NOT showing enough interest in these players - and then when we are losing out on the elite - we try getting involved with others and it's to late.

Like some people have mentioned how they would prefer guys that are a little less possibly the guys that stick for 2-3 years - even 4 yr guys that develop into pretty dam good players - - exp - - Frank - -Devonte - those types. - I just think maybe we could change our plan of attack some - -a little better mix/ratio - -try to put more effort possibly in maybe the not quite so elite but still very good. - -just random obversation - -who know's I might just be totally crazy on this. -- ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73 I get that. Just wondered.

@approxinfinity crazy high!

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@jayballer73 are the top schools recruiting those kids?

Ok , so went back through and checked about the question you asked. - - -Now I didn't write down every kid that was ranked from # 24 through 80 - I didn't write down every top 5 school he listed but I did browse and found and going to lists schools that are in their top 5 - -give some examples of who is in their top 5 schools:

Some of the schools I seen listed with these guys were : - - -Oregon - - - -Maryland - - Florida - - -Syracuse - - -Alabama - - -U Conn - - -Duke -- -Ohio St - - -Louisville - - -LSU - - -Tennessee - - -South Carolina - - -Wisconsin - - -Xavier - - -Butler - - -West Virginia - - -Purdue - - -Arkansas - - G'Town - - -Clemson - - -Arizona -- Arizona St.

Those were some of the schools listed with these guys. - Now I realize true may not be THE BLUEBLOOD - well other then Duke - but the point is - -they are being listed. - -KU is not even getting listed with these kids. - I know some of these Schools that listed - you mean to tell me these kids wouldn't at least have an attentive ear if Ku reached out to them - with them being ranked where they are? --

If I were a kid that was say oh ranked in the middle 60's -70's and you Had KU reach out to you show interest over say someone like a Clemson OR Xavier - -or Purdue OR just using as examples - -you as a player with that ranking wouldn't even at least listen to what KU had to say? - -something just doesn't seem right - -these guys aren't even giving us a sniff - that's where I'm wondering if we are just putting all our efforts into just more the top - -top - -elite and not enough attention to other really good quality players?

2020 is going to be a big class. Need at least 1 guard, probably two, two bigs, and possibly at least 1 wing if Ochai goes pro. I feel good about Daishen Nix at PG. Bryce Thompson is firmly in the mix at the 2 if we need another guard. UNC will be tough to beat there. Remember Zach Harvey? Also possible if all the legal stuff is over and done with. Isaiah Todd would be a terrific fit alongside McCormack. Ditto Xavier Foster, though seems he might stay local. Isaiah Cottrell is a nice player too. Josh Hall is a legit combo forward we're in on. Scottie Barnes will visit either late summer or early fall. I don't think Kyree Walker is a lock to be one and done, either. So we have a lot of irons in the fire.

@jayballer73 That's what alot of us have been saying for years. Go for the pretty good guy at 25- 75 that is willing to stick around and improve, and the let the number 3 guy that isn't even going to unpack his bags, and has it all figured out go to Dook and Tucky. To me, if the kid won't invest in us, we probably shouldn't invest in them. Now, there will be exceptions, such as Josh. But we're better served to get kids that want to stick around.

jayballer73 said:

Was doing some looking this morning with the rankings of 2020 recruits. Found kind of interesting. KU is listed as in the recruits top 5 schools mentioned - - OR has had a CB pick in10 out of the top 24 recruits for 2020 - -BUT then out of the next 56 recruits - -that I stopped at # 80 - - KU is only mentioned with - - 4 times.

So that got me to thinking this , Are we spending to much time on the top elite top 20 players/recruits & not enough time trying to recruit that middle tier player? - - -Just seems our success rate with these top level elite players are at a minimum Then we are losing out on some pretty quality 2-3 yr players - -plyers that might just need a little more time but yet very good players - -solid that will stick with the program and develop.

It kind of looks like we are spending all of our recruiting efforts on the Top - -Top players and not so much for the Upper end but not elite players - ending up costing us - -which puts us in a scramble mode - running around looking like a chicken with our heads cut off scrambling to fill the roster/position needs -- Plan - -A - - B -- C. - At least at 1st glance seems to be the case - I mean from the 24th ranked player to the 80th ranked player - -not to be even listed as one of the kids top5 School that the kid is interested in? - -only 4 kids out of 56? - Something seems kind of funny there - -Are we just not recruiting these kids? - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Look, if we had a roster where all 13 scholarships were taken by top 100 recruits and even players just outside of it (guys like Mason, Graham, Agbaji, Enaruna, Braun and McBride) we would be no worse than now, in fact an arguement could be made that we might even be better. I say we keep our roster stacked with at least ten of those guys on a yearly basis. If one or two highly ranked players happen to fall our way (which they will, Duke, Kentucky and North Carolina cannot sign them all) then fine, but don't go all in on six or seven guys who want to bolt as soon as possible.

@FarmerJayhawk We can get Xavier Foster.

Marco said:

@FarmerJayhawk We can get Xavier Foster.

I concur. The 4 spot is open for business no matter what Silvio does.

Marco said:

but don't go all in on six or seven guys who want to bolt as soon as possible.

Problems exist by chasing the top tier. These problems are far more than just the year we have them (starting guys with zero experience).

The problems start BEFORE we sign them, even if we don't sign one of them! Think about how many really quality players pass on Kansas because they don't want to sit on the bench behind an OAD? (only to be passed on again after the OAD leaves by bringing in another OAD!)

And then we have the problem of having all these players leave after only one year. Constant holes to fill, and we usually don't have quality depth built in that position because the OAD hogged the PT!

I really enjoy the eye candy of watching those guys stuff the ball. But I've come to think they are all "fool's gold."

If a top 20 prospect busts, you get Quentin Grimes. If a lower prospect busts, you get Anrio Adams. One guy you can still play every night, and he can come through big in some games. The other is borderline unplayable.

The guy you recruit that's ranked 50 something better be legit, otherwise you get nothing.

justanotherfan said:

If a top 20 prospect busts, you get Quentin Grimes. If a lower prospect busts, you get Anrio Adams. One guy you can still play every night, and he can come through big in some games. The other is borderline unplayable.

The guy you recruit that's ranked 50 something better be legit, otherwise you get nothing.

This is spot on. There is generally a better floor the higher up the rankings you go.

BShark said:

justanotherfan said:

If a top 20 prospect busts, you get Quentin Grimes. If a lower prospect busts, you get Anrio Adams. One guy you can still play every night, and he can come through big in some games. The other is borderline unplayable.

The guy you recruit that's ranked 50 something better be legit, otherwise you get nothing.

This is spot on. There is generally a better floor the higher up the rankings you go.

True - but you have to get them 1st - you spend the entire yr battling all the other blue bloods and then when you strike out - - - you REALLY strike out. - you have spent your year on upper tier guys and then you lose and by then you haven't given the middle tier guys a sniff - -now they not gonna give you one.

I'm by far not against the one and dones for sure you ought to know that. - Yet my question is - are we spending ENOUGH time recruiting all the others ? -seems like all we are focused on is OAD'S or close to it - -we need a better mix in the years to come

Just like Jalen now they have him at 5oth - but yet have hear he is under ranked should be 10-15 higher - that card can be played with others - THEY very well could be under ranked - -just need more even mix'

drgnslayr said:

Marco said:

but don't go all in on six or seven guys who want to bolt as soon as possible.

Problems exist by chasing the top tier. These problems are far more than just the year we have them (starting guys with zero experience).

The problems start BEFORE we sign them, even if we don't sign one of them! Think about how many really quality players pass on Kansas because they don't want to sit on the bench behind an OAD? (only to be passed on again after the OAD leaves by bringing in another OAD!)

And then we have the problem of having all these players leave after only one year. Constant holes to fill, and we usually don't have quality depth built in that position because the OAD hogged the PT!

I really enjoy the eye candy of watching those guys stuff the ball. But I've come to think they are all "fool's gold."

Thank you, another point I was just fixing to make. The turnover with those guys leaving, on top of however many the number of seniors that happen to be graduating is too much. That's one reason why I'm looking forward to this year's team, none of our freshmen are going to leave early.

jayballer73 said:

BShark said:

justanotherfan said:

If a top 20 prospect busts, you get Quentin Grimes. If a lower prospect busts, you get Anrio Adams. One guy you can still play every night, and he can come through big in some games. The other is borderline unplayable.

The guy you recruit that's ranked 50 something better be legit, otherwise you get nothing.

This is spot on. There is generally a better floor the higher up the rankings you go.

True - but you have to get them 1st - you spend the entire yr battling all the other blue bloods and then when you strike out - - - you REALLY strike out. - you have spent your year on upper tier guys and then you lose and by then you haven't given the middle tier guys a sniff - -now they not gonna give you one.

I'm by far not against the one and dones for sure you ought to know that. - Yet my question is - are we spending ENOUGH time recruiting all the others ? -seems like all we are focused on is OAD'S or close to it - -we need a better mix in the years to come

Just like Jalen now they have him at 5oth - but yet have hear he is under ranked should be 10-15 higher - that card can be played with others - THEY very well could be under ranked - -just need more even mix'

I'm with you @jayballer73! Sure we should recruit a few top-tier guys and hope that one or two might sign, but in the meantime I think we should mine hard and heavy the top 100, and if there are no scholarships left after a few of them decide to sign and become Jayhawks then so be it.

@jayballer73 We were positive we would get RJ, so we didn't offer Isaiah Moss. Now we're looking for a guard.

KUSTEVE said:

@jayballer73 We were positive we would get RJ, so we didn't offer Isaiah Moss. Now we're looking for a guard.

The more I heard from Iowa fans the more I can see why the staff passed. Good luck to Arkansas with him.

KUSTEVE said:

@jayballer73 We were positive we would get RJ, so we didn't offer Isaiah Moss. Now we're looking for a guard.

Was about Wilson, not Hampton for Moss.

@BShark I heard that. I was just wondering why Jordan Poole said that Moss was the toughest defender he faced in the B10.

@FarmerJayhawk I'll bet you're right. Same situation, though. Although there are lots of detractors regarding Moss. He was highly inconsistent. Not as much as Q, but close. I was trying to give a recent example of what Gerry was alluding to where we chase the big names, and miss out on the lower rated guys.

@KUSTEVE RJ is a DB

@FarmerJayhawk
If Ochai goes pro, then KU will have a pretty good year.

KUSTEVE said:

@jayballer73 We were positive we would get RJ, so we didn't offer Isaiah Moss. Now we're looking for a guard.

Exactly - -just to many misses. - -Previous years we still have missed -- maybe not like this year , BUT seems like we are missing alot

@jayballer73 I wasn't saying that Moss was a must get by any means, but i'm hoping we don't get totally skunked. I'm trying to warm up to JW- I think some of my caution has to do with him being so close to RJ, and that's probably not fair on my part. If he signs with us with the idea he'll be here for more than a year than we'd be foolish not to have him in light of our current situation at the 2/3.

KUSTEVE said:

@jayballer73 I wasn't saying that Moss was a must get by any means, but i'm hoping we don't get totally skunked. I'm trying to warm up to JW- I think some of my caution has to do with him being so close to RJ, and that's probably not fair on my part. If he signs with us with the idea he'll be here for more than a year than we'd be foolish not to have him in light of our current situation at the 2/3.

Oh I think there is no doubt that Jalen would be here for more then one year - -quite possible 2-3 yr guy

May we please curb the irrational exuberance for Ochai? Perhaps it's irrational optimism, instead. Ochai's numbers were very similar to Q's and all of us seem to agree Q wasn't likely to help next year's team enough on offense. Ochai hit 31% from 3 (23/75), while Q hit 34%. They averaged nearly the same amount of minutes per game, 26 for Ochai and 27 minutes for Q. Of course Q played in more game and played the 2, but Ochai's shooting wasn't better than Q's. I like Ochai's potential, but I'm still waiting for higher and more consistent scoring from him. At this point, I don't see Ochai as the player to pick up any of the points we are losing from Dedric's departure. But, I'm hopefully optimistic that Ochai will improve on offense. I also liked that during the tournament, Garrett seemed to understand his role on offense was to drive to the rim and not take the outside shot. I see three pieces of the starting puzzle, Dok, Silvio and Devon. I'm nervously waiting for two other quality starters to emerge.

@stoptheflop The huge difference is that Ochai's performance dip came along with an injury. He was shooting really well before his leg injury. I'm not as high on him as HEM is but I think he's fine to have as a starter this year when two of your other starters are legit Big 12 POTY and possibly national AA team candidates.

I don't think it's possible to play Garrett, Silvio and Doke all at once without committing what amounts to offensive suicide. So even if Bill adds one of Wilson or Walker I feel Ochai has to start. Garrett definitely has a place in the rotation you just can't have three non-shooters on the floor. Even if Silvio is hitting out to the ft line it doesn't work. He'd have to be able to hit threes which I don't see.

@BShark and Ochai is actually athletic. No oops (or ups) for Grimes. And the best thing is Ochai actually wants to be in Lawrence!

dylans said:

@BShark and Ochai is actually athletic. No oops (or ups) for Grimes. And the best thing is Ochai actually wants to be in Lawrence!

Great points all around...

dylans said:

@BShark and Ochai is actually athletic. No oops (or ups) for Grimes. And the best thing is Ochai actually wants to be in Lawrence!

Well Q MIGHT have had the ooops - -we just didn't see any lmao

@BShark I absolutely agree- I am close to HEM's exuberance over Ochai, but only if he is used right. I keep scratching my head, wondering how we're going to handle the ball well with a Dot/Ochai/Wilson/Silvio/Doke lineup. I think if we sign Wilson, we're signing off on a Marcus starting gig, simply due to the need of taking care of the ball. Ochai and JW are 3s, and would likely split the position, leaving MG and perhaps McBride handling the 2. Otherwise, every team is going to pressure our guards. That's no hitch for DD, but I can't say the same thing for JW and Ochai. I know Ochai is athletic, but playing the 2, and guarding smaller quicker guys might be a challenge. I tried to glean the ball handling skills in his prior videos, and the best I've seen is there were a few times he brought the ball up. That's why I think a Jaevin Cumberland type 2 is an absolute must.

@KUSTEVE I'm fine with Dot being extremely ball dominant.

@BShark I am too. I'm talking about all the times when he doesn't have the ball in his hands, like when we tried to play Wayne at the 2, or when Naadir was pressured by Eastern Kentucky in the NCAA tournament, and we almost lost. What made it hard for teams to double Frank was Devonte. I hope we can find a Devonte for Dotson.

I've come to appreciate "team ball" and fundamentals as being superior to elite OADs. I look at players like Fred VanVleet and Frank Mason... and I want more of those guys.

I've never been for having a revolving door team but I always thought (like many other's think) and having one or maybe two OADs sprinkled into a seasoned bunch made sense. I'm starting to question that idea. I'm still not against it, but sort of playing "devil's advocate."

I'm thinking more about what we give up by going after the fool's gold.

@drgnslayr Did you see Van Fleet's stats against Milwaukee? Incredible production when called on by a 6'0 bench player. I wish Frank could be given a similar opportunity.!0_1559523927255_vanfleet.png ↗

@approxinfinity

You can bet Frank will offer up some serious help to the right team, if given the chance.

@approxinfinity he's looked great tonight...

@KUSTEVE looks like it (just looking at boxscore). Its crazy to think that if he had hit 4 of 8 instead of 2 of 8 from 3, something he did in the last 3 games against the Bucks, they probably win. Dude's percentages have been outstanding.

@approxinfinity Toronto was playing a box in 1 against Steph, with fred chasing him all over the court. he was outstanding, made a basket almost on his butt ( ala dedric), those stumpy little legs churning like crazy. just a fearless badass of a player.

jayballer73 said:

BShark said:

justanotherfan said:

If a top 20 prospect busts, you get Quentin Grimes. If a lower prospect busts, you get Anrio Adams. One guy you can still play every night, and he can come through big in some games. The other is borderline unplayable.

The guy you recruit that's ranked 50 something better be legit, otherwise you get nothing.

This is spot on. There is generally a better floor the higher up the rankings you go.

True - but you have to get them 1st - you spend the entire yr battling all the other blue bloods and then when you strike out - - - you REALLY strike out. - you have spent your year on upper tier guys and then you lose and by then you haven't given the middle tier guys a sniff - -now they not gonna give you one.

This is true of every recruit. Its not like if Bill Self walks into the living room of any kid ranked between 30 and 80 that kid is going to immediately sign with KU. We have to recruit that kid, too.

That kid may want more PT, too. That kid may want to stay closer to home. That kid may want to go to another school, too. Its not like players 30-80 only have one scholarship offer.

It's not automatic that we sign whoever we want just by recruiting lower ranked players. We could still strike out. We could end up with only one or two guys instead of three or four. And because those aren't high end guys, we may not be able to make up for that.

That's a straw man argument. No one says it's "automatic" or that we might not miss or strike out. Of course, things "could" work out poorly. Of course.

As with anything else, it's percentages. Likelihoods. Risk. One of the worst arguments is to compare an absolute when the absolute is not part of the initial argument.

If we focused on non-OADs through 80ish, the great likelihood is that such a focus will pay allow a greater a pay off in that range than we have seen in the past. How many recruits have been left hanging, waiting on an OAD decision? If we made certain kids the priority and the first choice, instead of a second or third choice -- being KU and a blueblood -- that would lead to more players in that range. If we limit expenditure of recruiting capital inside the OAD range, that recruiting capital is focused elsewhere. The amount of travel, time, and effort focused on the OAD group is significant.

It's not that there isn't risk. There is. But a focus of energy and resources, and prioritization of certain players, is better the gamble.

That is particularly true given the alternative. One thing that can't be ignored or debated -- our return on presumed OADs has been pitiful. That, alone, might suggest a different path.

justanotherfan said:

jayballer73 said:

BShark said:

justanotherfan said:

If a top 20 prospect busts, you get Quentin Grimes. If a lower prospect busts, you get Anrio Adams. One guy you can still play every night, and he can come through big in some games. The other is borderline unplayable.

The guy you recruit that's ranked 50 something better be legit, otherwise you get nothing.

This is spot on. There is generally a better floor the higher up the rankings you go.

True - but you have to get them 1st - you spend the entire yr battling all the other blue bloods and then when you strike out - - - you REALLY strike out. - you have spent your year on upper tier guys and then you lose and by then you haven't given the middle tier guys a sniff - -now they not gonna give you one.

This is true of every recruit. Its not like if Bill Self walks into the living room of any kid ranked between 30 and 80 that kid is going to immediately sign with KU. We have to recruit that kid, too.

That kid may want more PT, too. That kid may want to stay closer to home. That kid may want to go to another school, too. Its not like players 30-80 only have one scholarship offer.

It's not automatic that we sign whoever we want just by recruiting lower ranked players. We could still strike out. We could end up with only one or two guys instead of three or four. And because those aren't high end guys, we may not be able to make up for that.

And you don't think we realize this - -but I'll tell ya what - - we having a lot more success at the middle tier then the higher - hen your spending all your time just to get screwed round like Hampton - -or Ayton that got bought off - -mainwhile back at the ranch you not even sniffing at the middle tier focusing all your time on elite - - Can't work like that - -proof is in the pudding - -Hell who ever you recruit you have to work - that's an obvious statement - -but you have to knock 1st TO WORK - we not even acknowledging a lot of these middle tier - that is a MISTAKE

I feel like ku missed out on just as many multi-year guys this time around

@jayballer73

Lets do a quick thought experiment here. Let's say rather than recruiting DeAndre Ayton, we focus on recruits in the range that you outline, so we are looking at Jeremiah Tilmon, Dan Gafford and Jalen Hill. All three of those guys signed in state.

Tilmon has been solid so far, 8 points, 4 boards as a freshman, 10 and 6 as a sophomore.

Gafford has been better. 12 and 6, then 17 and 9.

Hill has been disappointing. He missed his freshman season with the China shoplifting incident. Averaged 4 and 6 this past season.

So we target all three of those guys. Gafford is the best, but good luck getting him out of state and away from Arkansas.

Same story with Tilmon and Mizzou.

Maybe we land Hill, but he's easily the worst of the three and he likely has very little impact either last season or this past season even if he doesn't get suspended.

And that's assuming we get him. We could just as easily recruit that next group and still strike out because so many of the guys in that range stay regionally close to home/ in state.

We don't gain a recruiting advantage by pursuing that range of recruits, and we likely don't get impact players like you will recruiting the top 20-25.

We basically become a higher level Iowa State.

@HighEliteMajor It's pitiful because it's overrated. How does Dook not cut the nets down with 3 freshman lottery picks? How does the Squid out recruit the whole world for a decade, and have 1 national championship to show for it? Why did Bill's worst years happen when he started the most freshmen? There are two elements that are always going to hold down the effectiveness of a highly ranked freshman - 1) inexperience and 2) motivation. In my books, we've had 1 great OAD, a few decent OADS, and more than our share of of overrated, immature, entitled kids. I use the Isaiah Moss example again ... ( please don't tell me how lucky we are not to have got him. he would've been better than what we got with RJ). Here you have a senior, who averaged more points than Q in less minutes, and had a higher 3 point shooting percent than anyone on our team ( considering we are almost certain to start a guy at the 2 who averaged 24.5% from 3 last year ). This guy had 3 years experience in the B10, and he visited us, and we didn't offer him. We passed.

Experience wins championships. Experience and dedication to the team, to the program is what cuts the nets down. Tech brought in 2 outstanding seniors from other programs, and almost cut down the nets. The last two years, our best players in the tournament ( Dedric/Malik ) both came to the table with experience and skills. Now, it doesn't work every time ( Charlie/KJ ), but it works enough that a team that has to try to recruit in Lubbock, Tx made the national championship game after losing 5 seniors the year before. Contrast that with the recruiting fiasco that will forever be known as the " RJ Circus".

@justanotherfan and no thanks to that.

Overall I'm fine with Bill's approach, there are reasons this year went way south. Last year was fantastic how quickly some forget.

The issue is not recruiting outside of the top 20. The issue is identifying guys that are presumed OADs. That may not be a fixed number each year. Different classes mean different things. There might be 8 presumed OADS one year, and 15 the next. And the #20 kid might be a presumed OAD and the #12 kid not.

I chuckle at the idea that KU, with Bill Self as the coach, focusing on non-presumed OADs, could be akin to Iowa St. Now, lose coach Self? That's a different deal.

So, tell me, what presumed OAD has made a transformational difference in our outcome at KU since Self has been here -- a difference that really meant something?

I suggest only one -- Josh Jackson. But even with that, we only made the EE.

It's just beyond me why those results cause such recruiting effort over multiple years.

I'm guessing for every OAD target we go after we are losing out on 10 players from 20-100.

I've heard the argument before that if we don't go after and get some Top-10 guys then the group right below that won't be interested either because they see themselves as Top-10. I can see a problem here if we don't structure it right. The right structure is to lead the country in development. End of story. The players that want to work their rears off and get a lot better will be attracted to our program. The players that are "sniffing their own glue" won't be attracted and that is a great thing! No more prima donnas in our program!

Our program isn't really quite at a level where we can go out and "truckload" in Top 10 recruits at every position anyways. We are committed to a direction where we don't quite have what it takes, like East Coast exposure and a bigger media market. The tradition of KU basketball, and the quality of Self, can only make up so much ground.

How do we make up the difference? Illegal booster payments?

We are swimming in waters full of sharks when we could leave the ocean for our own private exclusive pool... the very best development D1 program in America! We could do it! It will require some staff changes and a restructuring in some areas... but we could do it and we could quickly gain the right reputation.

I think there's to many variables to decide if the OAD's have helped. If Embiid would have been healthy, if josh wouldn't have got in trouble, big 12 tourney champs.... if he wouldn't have got that damn foul and had to sit. So many presumed OAD's aren't OAD's. Malik wasn't. He should've come here first. There's getting to be more of those. I don't even know most of them, revolving door at Kentucky. It's funny the presumed OAD's are transferring if the OAD thing doesn't work out. Quinerly and grimes leaving great coaches. I guess I don't really have a pt, just think you can't place to much on player rankings.

HighEliteMajor said:

The issue is not recruiting outside of the top 20. The issue is identifying guys that are presumed OADs. That may not be a fixed number each year. Different classes mean different things. There might be 8 presumed OADS one year, and 15 the next. And the #20 kid might be a presumed OAD and the #12 kid not.

I chuckle at the idea that KU, with Bill Self as the coach, focusing on non-presumed OADs, could be akin to Iowa St. Now, lose coach Self? That's a different deal.

So, tell me, what presumed OAD has made a transformational difference in our outcome at KU since Self has been here -- a difference that really meant something?

I suggest only one -- Josh Jackson. But even with that, we only made the EE.

It's just beyond me why those results cause such recruiting effort over multiple years.

It increasingly is about recruiting outside the top 20, since freshmen are leaving for professional opportunities at higher rates. I'm of the mind that a mix of OAD and multi-year players is the best formula for KU. The risk being if you stick to recruiting only multi-year guys and they go supernova like Ben you're stuck. The transition from 2014 to 2015 would've been brutal had we not landed Wayne (a presumed OAD) and Wiggins. We would've started Tharpe, Conner, Andrew White, Perry Ellis, and Tarik Black. Woof.

Like you said, it's about risk and planning that risk across years. With a presumed one and done, you bake in the assumption they leave after a year. If not, a bonus! But if a multi-year guy does blow up and leaves before you think and you only recruit guys who are multi-year and may not be ready, you're in a heap of trouble unless you find the right fit as a transfer. It's not necessarily just freshmen, but UVA and Nova are good examples. UVA will take a big step back next year after losing a lot of guys they expected to have for 4 years. Same with Nova and Donte.

The bust rate on guys ranked 20 and beyond is also a lot higher. Quite a few never live up to their ranking or become more than bit players on good teams, like Conner. OAD types inside the top 20 bust at a lot lower rate. So it's not a risk-free proposition to recruit non-OAD type guys. It's the type of risk you're willing to take. Sign me up for high floor OAD's with competition from multi-year guys. If they don't develop, they leave.

We were close to losing d dot! Scary!

As an aside, every time I see the title of this thread, I marvel at it. “OBVERSATION” is a great title for “OBSERVATION + CONVERSATION”. Well done, Jayballer! Well done!

Crimsonorblue22 said:

We were close to losing d dot! Scary!

Our player retention hasn't been too great lately. Sometimes it's luck, like Rush returning. Self probably doesn't have a title w/o that happening.

Like @KUSTEVE said experience matters a lot.

@BShark seems like more players don't give a rip where they go, just get in a year and get out. Like Alabama, Mississippi state. Etc.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@BShark seems like more players don't give a rip where they go, just get in a year and get out. Like Alabama, Mississippi state. Etc.

Roy manages to keep guys around. K is the king of it when he needs it done.

Kids definitely want to play. Have to identify the kids that might want to stick around. Last two classes have been good so far tbh. Easy to say now but Dotson was expected to stay 2 years.

HighEliteMajor said:

That's a straw man argument. No one says it's "automatic" or that we might not miss or strike out. Of course, things "could" work out poorly. Of course.

As with anything else, it's percentages. Likelihoods. Risk. One of the worst arguments is to compare an absolute when the absolute is not part of the initial argument.

If we focused on non-OADs through 80ish, the great likelihood is that such a focus will pay allow a greater a pay off in that range than we have seen in the past. How many recruits have been left hanging, waiting on an OAD decision? If we made certain kids the priority and the first choice, instead of a second or third choice -- being KU and a blueblood -- that would lead to more players in that range. If we limit expenditure of recruiting capital inside the OAD range, that recruiting capital is focused elsewhere. The amount of travel, time, and effort focused on the OAD group is significant.

It's not that there isn't risk. There is. But a focus of energy and resources, and prioritization of certain players, is better the gamble.

That is particularly true given the alternative. One thing that can't be ignored or debated -- our return on presumed OADs has been pitiful. That, alone, might suggest a different path.

Couldn't of said it better. That's what I've been trying to at least say. I'm not saying we just quit recruiting elite players - -what I AM saying is I don't think we are giving ENOUGH time to like HighElite is saying -enough time to the middle tier those 3-4 yr possibly - -and again like others are saying we have been by passing - -the 4--90 players only to try to come in very late and try to get them to come by then supposedly just being overwhelmed by our name only b- -like was said we even have to recruit these players - it's not getting done - -or at least strong enough.

These guys being pushed back to 2-3-4th options - -and when we fail and get used and fail again- - -THEN and it seems ONLY THEN do we try to push for these kids - -and were gonna learn - -one way or another we will learn -that these kids - -some take offense to that.

Kinda like OH NOW I'm good enough - - -NOW you want me - - ummm no thanks - -these kids aren't stupid - they wants to play for people that really want them - -not some last ditch panic recruitment. - We need to be recruiting these types just as hard - -instead of using them as possibly fall back - it's just not getting done

BShark said:

I feel like ku missed out on just as many multi-year guys this time around

why you think that is?

@jayballer73 FBI and looming NCAA uncertainty sure didn't help.

justanotherfan said:

@jayballer73

Lets do a quick thought experiment here. Let's say rather than recruiting DeAndre Ayton, we focus on recruits in the range that you outline, so we are looking at Jeremiah Tilmon, Dan Gafford and Jalen Hill. All three of those guys signed in state.

Tilmon has been solid so far, 8 points, 4 boards as a freshman, 10 and 6 as a sophomore.

Gafford has been better. 12 and 6, then 17 and 9.

Hill has been disappointing. He missed his freshman season with the China shoplifting incident. Averaged 4 and 6 this past season.

So we target all three of those guys. Gafford is the best, but good luck getting him out of state and away from Arkansas.

Same story with Tilmon and Mizzou.

Maybe we land Hill, but he's easily the worst of the three and he likely has very little impact either last season or this past season even if he doesn't get suspended.

And that's assuming we get him. We could just as easily recruit that next group and still strike out because so many of the guys in that range stay regionally close to home/ in state.

We don't gain a recruiting advantage by pursuing that range of recruits, and we likely don't get impact players like you will recruiting the top 20-25.

We basically become a higher level Iowa State.

Thanks I'm done - -no need to continue - -, if you refer to posts such as BShark saying we missed out on just as many of the lower tier this year - just like I ask him - -I'll ask you- -why you think that is? --Because 80 % of it is these players are getting tired of being called upon as option 3-4-5-6 - -how many OTHER players did we try to land before we ended up as some say scratching the bottom - -and we misses - -these kids have gotten to the point of just saying enough is enough - To many people seem to think these middle to lower recruits will piss themselves if KU's name is even mentioned about recruiting them - News Flash that Boat has done sailed. - -They feel they deserve the same type of recruitment as any other - and why shouldn't they? - - -Does Mitch come to mind? - look at him. - -He by far is not elite. - But I'll take Mitch any day - -he loves the school - -bust his ass every time out - -he isn't one of these OAD'S bitches that only play defense when they feel like it- - -Refer to Quentin Grimes - - LaGerald Vick - and countless others - -How many of these OAD'S do you see giving their body up diving for the loose Balls? - -or how about one of these precious shit's trying to take a charge? - That's Mitch - you know him - -a guy that is willing to do whatever it takes - -to get the TEAM win.

Or I'll take Ochai anyday - -guys that are will to commit 100 % day in - - day out - thing is we are starting to lose out on these types of players - - WHY ? - -already told you. - OAD'S are fine the whole thing is - -we need to put more effort to recruiting the 40-50-60 type ranked - -you can find some hidden treasures - -say like oh I DUNNO how about a Frank Mason - -OR - -Devonte Graham - - what about McBride , ya we got him - -he will be fine - -I'll take him - the quality player, - but if you don't try to recuit these guy until option b-c-d-e - it is gonna come back and bit you right square in the ass.

KUSTEVE said:

@HighEliteMajor It's pitiful because it's overrated. How does Dook not cut the nets down with 3 freshman lottery picks? How does the Squid out recruit the whole world for a decade, and have 1 national championship to show for it? Why did Bill's worst years happen when he started the most freshmen? There are two elements that are always going to hold down the effectiveness of a highly ranked freshman - 1) inexperience and 2) motivation. In my books, we've had 1 great OAD, a few decent OADS, and more than our share of of overrated, immature, entitled kids. I use the Isaiah Moss example again ... ( please don't tell me how lucky we are not to have got him. he would've been better than what we got with RJ). Here you have a senior, who averaged more points than Q in less minutes, and had a higher 3 point shooting percent than anyone on our team ( considering we are almost certain to start a guy at the 2 who averaged 24.5% from 3 last year ). This guy had 3 years experience in the B10, and he visited us, and we didn't offer him. We passed.

Experience wins championships. Experience and dedication to the team, to the program is what cuts the nets down. Tech brought in 2 outstanding seniors from other programs, and almost cut down the nets. The last two years, our best players in the tournament ( Dedric/Malik ) both came to the table with experience and skills. Now, it doesn't work every time ( Charlie/KJ ), but it works enough that a team that has to try to recruit in Lubbock, Tx made the national championship game after losing 5 seniors the year before. Contrast that with the recruiting fiasco that will forever be known as the " RJ Circus".

Oh but we could offer Isaiah right? - -cause we were to focused on RJ - -ya right - -we see where that got us huh? - BURNED - - -AGAIN. - - remind me again where did Isaiah sign again? - - not here right? - -and where did the kid that you bypass Isaiah for where did he sign again - - -BINGO - - NOT HERE - -these kids are not waiting anymore. - -So instead of landing that really solid player with experience - -we get ZELCH - again. - -we have got to just start doing better at recruiter the -these middle tier kids - one more time listen very closely to what I'm saying I'm not saying quit recruiting the OAD's - all I'm saying is got to better with these kids a little further down the line GEEZ

Why don't we put an end to all the recruiting BS (and arguments)?

Let's initiate a High School draft. The crappiest college gets first pick. The National Champ gets last pick. Then the team with the best coach wins the damn super bowl seemingly every other year..........wait. Sorry - got off track. But the principal is the same.

BShark said:

@jayballer73 FBI and looming NCAA uncertainty sure didn't help.

sure didn't hurt Arizona OR Louisville as bad - -sure they dropped some but they rebounded - -

@jayballer73 Maybe Ochai committed to KU because in part KU is close to where his family is at (KC?). Also, we have talked about the fail rate of these players. Do we really trust that Self and his staff have great ability to recognize only the multi-year lower ranked players that will be awesome?

Going off Self's recruits at KU, and not counting any player that stayed 3-4 years but was highly ranked. So, basically all 5 stars are out, because why include them in this exercise when they don't fit.

Great: Mason, Graham, Morris, Morris

Average: Releford, Brady, Reed, Tyshawn

Uh: Tharpe, Jamari, Lucas, Greene, Vick

TO BE DETERMINED: Mitch, Garrett, Ochai and Dave.

Lower rated players that ran away/didn't contribute much: Tyrone Appleton, Mario Little, Quintrell Thomas, Royce Woolridge, Peters, White, Adams, Frankamp

Okay I lied...

5*/top rated players that stayed awhile: Sherron, Chalmers, Rush, Aldrich, TRob, Perry, Selden, Udoka, Dotson

Svi is an interesting case. The one site that actually rated him had him as a 5*. Anyway I wasn't sure where to put him, so I abstained from categorizing him for this.

Note that our best two players on the upcoming team, are five stars that are a SO and SR respectively.

I'm going to take the very controversial stance that talent and player retention matter.

jayballer73 said:

BShark said:

@jayballer73 FBI and looming NCAA uncertainty sure didn't help.

sure didn't hurt Arizona OR Louisville as bad - -sure they dropped some but they rebounded - -

Well they had one off year. KU has had one off year, let's see what happens in 2020? Maybe KU bounces back like they did now that Self has stated he is LOCKED in to KU (firmly believe rumors of Self leaving hurt with JRE).

@jayballer73 If Isaiah Moss couldn't handle Fran, he would have snapped under Bill imo.

@BShark You might have a point. But, he signed with Musselman at Arkansas, who is a mad man. So, we'll see how it works out. Hopefully, Bill won't be apologizing for his behavior like he did last year.

BShark said:

@jayballer73 If Isaiah Moss couldn't handle Fran, he would have snapped under Bill imo.

kinda like Quentin

@jayballer73 Can't disagree Q was charmin soft. Sometimes you don't know until you get them in the program. That they didn't offer Moss says a lot imo.

@BShark he did knock the💩 out of a lot of guys on his charges. He dove on loose balls. I thought he was slow thinking, not a OAD but not a bad player. A couple of years was what he needed. He was good in the USA games. Bad people in his head! Jmo

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@BShark he did knock the💩 out of a lot of guys on his charges. He dove on loose balls. I thought he was slow thinking, not a OAD but not a bad player. A couple of years was what he needed. He was good in the USA games. Bad people in his head! Jmo

He was terrible, objectively. Might have been okay as a JR/SR but that was never happening.

@BShark I said, in a snotty tone, jmo.

@BShark He was Wayne Selden in his freshman year.

His jr year should be nice, Grimes just took a redshirt to get there so we don’t get to watch him develop.

KUSTEVE said:

@BShark He was Wayne Selden in his freshman year.

Selden was a bit better. Rebounded better, passed better and probably most importantly was about 10% better from 2 pt range on a full 1 shot more a game. The advanced stats indicate Selden was a hefty bit better than Q offensively fwiw.

@BShark No doubt. Wayne was also more consistent. But, if you're looking for a freshman comp, Wayne is as close as I can remember. And remember, Wayne got much better. I'm not convinced Q will, although his scoring average will probably go up.

I'm playing devil's advocate against myself.

One big problem with those mid-tier players.... they want to play, too, and they expect to play wherever they commit, even if it's a blue blood school. We are seeing so many of these players transfer now. Consider them OAD without even the chance of bringing much in that one year.

Q fit that bill. I like the young man but I can't see how anyone saw him as a 5-star recruit, or even close. The one big compliment I always heard about him was about his size. But when did he ever use that size to make a play? What I saw was a mid-tier player that was fortunate to get over-hyped. He now leaves a HOF'r coach, blue blood program... and he was probably guaranteed PT!

I often wonder how our recruiters actually judge talent. How much of it is just recruiting on the rankings? I think if I was a recruiter I'd want to interview recruits' friends as well as their parents. Most of the time their coaches are responsible for the over-hype. How about interviewing some of the players they played against? Opposing coaches? How about looking over footage very carefully? Is it impressive when they dunk over a 5'8" guy with no hops?

And can our coaches even spot when a recruit has been coached up well? I know this sounds like I'm blowing my own horn, but I dominated the boards from the 7th grade on because I sealed off the boards. It's not friggin' rocket science. And it doesn't take too much talent to get a feel for where the rebounds are going to go. How hard is it to hedge the ball handler on their right side when you know that's his only move?

I love D1 ball but I'm sick and tired of all the excuses for these guys not playing very elementary play. I know I seem to pick on Q... but that guy just seemed lost out there and often was more a spectator than a player. I'm sick of watching that kind of basketball.

I'm yawning until Charles Barkley has a son who his dad coaches up and he signs with us. Wake me up for that! Ha...

Or get me the recruit that has some size and athleticism who knows he is a long shot to make it in the NBA... so he wants to pour every inch of himself into his basketball career, which will last 4-years at Kansas. He'll leave his guts on the court every night, diving for balls, because he isn't worried about saving his valuable body parts for the league in the immediate future. Give me the guy who is playing for bragging rights, so he can tell his kids someday how he crushed 5-star players in his junior and senior year.

I don't see another National Championship on the horizon for us... not until we get a team of guys who truly "buy-in" to Self. It only takes one or two guys to not "get it" and we go home early again.

We should start a new thread... "Which players bought-in to Self ball?" I think that will tell us everything we need to know. Before long... I'm pretty sure we see how many of the OADs never bought in. They just played at a certain level, then moved on 8 months later, or whatever.

Sherron Collins is on my all-time greats list because his guts were always hanging out there. Forget the 2008 NC without him. Where do we find more of him?

Did we ever heal after the 2012 NC game? Wasn't that the year Cal won the trophy with his OADs? We would have won that game without a single McDs AA had it not been for the dominance of the unibrow, who was truly a freak talent, off the charts. I don't know that Self ever recovered from that. It seems like that was when he really stepped it up a notch to go after OADs. He was convinced the game would be controlled by OADs after that. It really hasn't worked out that way.

I have time to think now, between the rain drops, watching my tomato plants grow! hahaha

MESSAGE TO BIG MAC:

You've got the hustle. You've got the desire. You know you have to learn how to seal off the boards. Get to know your butt. Bend your knees, lower your center of gravity, and learn how to stick your butt onto other people. Heck... why wait until practice? Get your butt lowered and stick it on your friends and start backing up. Push them away from the vanilla pudding in the cafeteria. Get those arms dangling sideways like a fence. Once you learn how to use your butt right, you usually don't even need your fence because you keep your opponents off balance by pushing them out with your butt.

Go get your hands on as much Charles Barkley footage as you can. Learn from the master. Learn where most of the rebounds go. And learn to spot the shot and have a feel for where it will hit the rim.

Do this and let's see how many minutes you earn this year when you are averaging a rebound per minute. It can be done. You've got the size and no one in D1 even knows how to rebound, including your teammates.

@BShark he also tried hard and had a little nasty.. Grimes was ultra soft.

@Fightsongwriter The kid was born with thick legs, and short arms. He has real trouble moving his feet to stay in front of defenders, and those short arms don't help to defend, either. Offensively, he has a pretty decent jumper, but he doesn't seem to be able to jump more than two inches. He lacks the quickness to get by defenders, hence he racks up the charges. He's a pretty good passer, but when he doesn't have the ball, he just stands there like a lump on a log. I highly doubt he will be effective at the next level.

I have said before that the issue for KU recruiting lower ranked players is location. Some want us to be like Michigan State, ignoring the fact that Michigan HS basketball produces dozens more D1 recruits than Kansas does. Izzo can pursue an OAD, then fall back to recruit a local kid. Self doesn't have that option, because often there is no local kid to recruit.

If there were, I would see this as viable option. But without more local talent, it just isn't happening.

@KUSTEVE But other than that he is terrific! 😉

FYI North Carolina insiders feel Jalen Wilson will pick KU after his visit to UNC..

BeddieKU23 said:

FYI North Carolina insiders feel Jalen Wilson will pick KU after his visit to UNC..

Jalen is just saying he will make his decision SOMETIME this month. Michigan people think that it was HUGE that they got through the visits to N Carolina & KU without Jalen committing on the spot. Jalen said he will not make a decision the next couple of days but will sit down with the family and then decide.

Being said that since Juwan being able to have an in home visit & and them having the last shot , for sure plays in their favor - -saying all Juwan needs to do is sell Jalen on what he already loves - - Michigan. - they think the longer he waits - - the more it levels the field for them -they think they have a really good shot at him re-committing. Mama has always been a big fan of Juwan's

They have some pretty valid points. - -I've been thinking myself and still do think - - with Michigan hiring Howard I just feel he will end up re-committing to Michigan , it's gonna be awhile before we hear probably sounds like a week or more - -who knows - just don't get a good feel. - - Although one little side note , Jalen did state that his North Carolina visit was AMAZING- don't really remember him saying anything about his KU visit - just don't get a good feel. -- I think he will end up staying put at Michigan when it is all said and done. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73

I don't get the feeling he's going back to Michigan at all. They burned bridges not telling him the coach was leaving. Not only did his coach leave, his lead recruiter did as well.

Anything can happen. We see parents being in control of the situation more then the kids all the time and recently that seems to be a theme with kids KU is recruiting.

We'll see, I think we've been snake bite too many times in this recruiting cycle to feel confident in anyone coming here which is what I'm sensing from your comments. Hopefully a decision is made soon and its a positive one

BeddieKU23 said:

@jayballer73

I don't get the feeling he's going back to Michigan at all. They burned bridges not telling him the coach was leaving. Not only did his coach leave, his lead recruiter did as well.

Anything can happen. We see parents being in control of the situation more then the kids all the time and recently that seems to be a theme with kids KU is recruiting.

We'll see, I think we've been snake bite too many times in this recruiting cycle to feel confident in anyone coming here which is what I'm sensing from your comments. Hopefully a decision is made soon and its a positive one

ya, this cycle has sucked - - Just think Juwan making good connection - -we need a quick decision, I'm like their fan base in respect - - if this drags out - -the better odds of them getting him back are. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73 True this cycle was taxing but I think at the end of the day, we ended up with some good ones. Kids that can shoot, and good kids that should stick around and graduate. Program players. :)

Anyone buying this?

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26902770/kansas-michigan-way-too-early-top-25-2019-20 ↗

KU preseason #3

@dylans There's a rationale for it. Loads of experience. We might not have 1 freshman starter next year. Offensively, we sure won't look like the 30th best team, let alone the 3rd. Defensively, we could be as good as anyone in the country. So, who knows?

dylans said:

Anyone buying this?

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26902770/kansas-michigan-way-too-early-top-25-2019-20 ↗

KU preseason #3

No I don't/ - I think that's some high , I'm thinking more on the line of 5th or so. - - Until we find the answer to our SF and our 2 guard - -yes we have bodies but to really put it to rest and solidify - it's a crap shoot with who we have right now. - - question is do we have a legit 3 at this point? - a legit 3 that makes us justifies us a being ranked 3rd in the Nation. - you fill these two needs that we really still have need for -get us a shooter then ya. - Right now I think our outside shooting is suspect , especially on top of the fact that the 3 pt line being moved back - -w struggles last year little lone them moving it back. - -If we get Wilson - -we persuade Walker then for sure #3 - until then I think more like a # 5 - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73 We have answers at the 2, and at the 3.
Both Marcus and Ochai were playing great, and then both got injured. No doubt we're thin, and need more depth at guard, but that starting lineup is primo, imo.

KUSTEVE said:

@dylans There's a rationale for it. Loads of experience. We might not have 1 freshman starter next year. Offensively, we sure won't look like the 30th best team, let alone the 3rd. Defensively, we could be as good as anyone in the country. So, who knows?

It's going to be a fun year, imo.

Weren't we preseason #1 last year? 🏀🤬 down he went, so did we! I'm not a huge fan of transfers, Tarik black huge exception!

KUSTEVE said:

@jayballer73 We have answers at the 2, and at the 3.
Both Marcus and Ochai were playing great, and then both got injured. No doubt we're thin, and need more depth at guard, but that starting lineup is primo, imo.

Oh buddy if your counting on Marcus as an answer then we are screwed plain and simple v- - defense wise ya - - offense no fricking way - - No, we don't have the answer at this point sorry

Crimsonorblue22 said:

Weren't we preseason #1 last year? 🏀🤬 down he went, so did we! I'm not a huge fan of transfers, Tarik black huge exception!

Jeff Withey was okay

@BShark yes and Kevin young!

I forgot! Probably more🤔

Crimsonorblue22 said:

I forgot! Probably more🤔

Malik was eventually good. Most don't work out well.

Malik should've come here to start with and stayed awhile.

@jayballer73 Garrett is an answer offensively if it's the Garrett the few games before his injury when he was driving and finishing with confidence and authority. I think he had 3 straight 20+ point games before the high ankle sprain so the light had come on for him offensively. He was also shooting the 3 ball with more confidence at that point as well.

This is a team that's going to be relying very heavily on defense anyway and Marcus Garrett is the best defender on this team by a big margin. Don't be shocked when he win B12 DPOY next season.

@jayballer73 You'll learn to appreciate Marcus in time. We didn't appreciate RussRob either...at first.

I'm ok with a single transfer player not a team of them. If Vick would've stayed gone we would've had Sam, Charlie, Dedric and KJ. That's just too much of a pieced together squad. We have had several solid transfer including Withey, Young, Black and Newman but they weren't on a team with 3 or 4 others at the same time.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Exactly.

@Texas-Hawk-10 exactly, Marcus Garrett is ahead of where Releford and RusRob were as sophomores IMO. If you read the book beyond the Phogg, RusRob wasnt allowed to take 3s after the first 5 minutes of the half because he was so bad at shooting. Releford averaged less than 5 points per game before the second half of his junior year.

kjayhawks said:

@Texas-Hawk-10 exactly, Marcus Garrett is ahead of where Releford and RusRob were as sophomores IMO. If you read the book beyond the Phogg, RusRob wasnt allowed to take 3s after the first 5 minutes of the half because he was so bad at shooting. Releford averaged less than 5 points per game before the second half of his junior year.

Easy, partner. I would suggest that we're not talking the same league here.

Garrett has shot roughly 25% from three. That is historically bad. You will not find another KU perimeter player that low after two full seasons as a rotation player, at least in the Self era.

Releford was 37.8% as a freshman, and 32.5% as a sophomore. Of course, was over 40% his senior season. And he avg. 7.2 pts in the last half of his JR year, not 5, fyi. He was the fifth option there, after TRob, TT, EJ, and Withey. Releford was a stout role player. Great D. Garrett could be Releford if his shooting got more acceptable.

RRob was 28.6% as a freshman and 32.2% as a sophomore. And stayed in the 32% range thereafter.

As a comparison, Wiggins was 34%.

As far shooting, when you dip below that 35% level, you are below average.

But when you go below 30%, you're scraping toward the bottom of the bell curve. Below 30% is really bad. Garrett is 25% for his career and has made no upward move from that purgatory level. And there is no hope gleaned from his shooting form.

We all remember RRob being really bad from three his freshman season. But he shot better in that season than Garrett ever has.

And this is a bigger deal. The eye test. Garrett has horrible -- just horrible -- mechanics. And he's NEVER shot well, not even in high school as someone posted.

Back in RRob and Releford's day, Self was a control freak on threes. He's evolved his approach on threes. Night and day, almost.

Garrett has the worst mechanics from outside of any KU perimeter player I can remember.

All of this Garrett discussion brings me to what I think is the key here -- Garrett can absolutely help us win. He has helped us win. I wouldn't trade him away. He's a key cog. The other elements of his game are so good, that if the shooting spikes a bit, look out. I love having Garrett on this team. Self playing him in some key situations last season won us some games. His role just needs to be managed based on his poor shooting (which is a critical, critical element because it can hamper your entire offense, because of how the defense handles that poor shooter).

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@jayballer73 Garrett is an answer offensively if it's the Garrett the few games before his injury when he was driving and finishing with confidence and authority. I think he had 3 straight 20+ point games before the high ankle sprain so the light had come on for him offensively. He was also shooting the 3 ball with more confidence at that point as well.

This is a team that's going to be relying very heavily on defense anyway and Marcus Garrett is the best defender on this team by a big margin. Don't be shocked when he win B12 DPOY next season.

oh for sure you won't get ANY argument about the defensive end. - Offensive he is handicapped - -you going to see the defensive player not playing his as tight - -give him a little more space forcing to shoot from the outside and taking away the drive on him - -that happens he is screwed unless he has magically developed his shot

KUSTEVE said:

@jayballer73 You'll learn to appreciate Marcus in time. We didn't appreciate RussRob either...at first.

roflmao - -- Ha that's good buddy I like you - -only one little problem. - -I do respect I by far have nothing against him. - But his not the answer - he is a huge handicap on the offensive end of the floor. - Just like some many said last year when he was in - it allows the other team to double on other players. - -were playing 4-5 when he is on the floor on the offensive end

Hell I don't how many times I was sticking up for Marcus last year , no man do even try to begin to say I don't respect Marcus. - On the DEFENSIVE END Marcus is the best defensive player we got. - Offensively - - ummm not so much

@jayballer73 I think you're forgetting that before Garrett's high ankle sprain, the light finally came on for him offensively and he was aggressive with ball. Even after coming back from that injury when he was playing at 60-65%, he was still very efficient from the floor in most games. Only ISU in B12 title game could be considered a bad shooting day for him.

I don't think you're giving Garrett the credit he deserves for adapting to teams sagging him and him still finding ways to score that weren't launching 3's (even still, he is 35% from 3 in B12 play in his career). Garrett is probably the 4th or 5th scoring option, but he'll still have some games where he goes off for 20+ next season while averaging 7-9 ppg this season.

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@jayballer73 I think you're forgetting that before Garrett's high ankle sprain, the light finally came on for him offensively and he was aggressive with ball. Even after coming back from that injury when he was playing at 60-65%, he was still very efficient from the floor in most games. Only ISU in B12 title game could be considered a bad shooting day for him.

I don't think you're giving Garrett the credit he deserves for adapting to teams sagging him and him still finding ways to score that weren't launching 3's (even still, he is 35% from 3 in B12 play in his career). Garrett is probably the 4th or 5th scoring option, but he'll still have some games where he goes off for 20+ next season while averaging 7-9 ppg this season.

beginning to look like this will be a mute point anyways. - -if this plays out which it is starting to look more and more it very well could. - - We will have Wilson OR Moss one or the other even quite possibly both and won't have to rely on Marcus for his offense, can't replace him on the defensive end - but offensively na - -not so much.

Ya'll think I'm a Garrett basher - -psssssst please I truly like Marcus from basher - but just clear not the answer for our shortcomings on the offensive end - and sure isn't the one that would give us a legit reason to be put as a pre season # 3 ranking. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73 Nobody is accusing you of bashing Garrett. You're also sounding like you think Garrett has to average 15 a game and be a focal point on offense to make up for his offensive short comings and nobody is suggesting that either.

Even if KU lands Moss and/or Wilson, Marcus will be a starter for KU next season and average 25-30 mpg while averaging somewhere around 7-9 ppg. An uptick in his shooting, more than possible considering he is a career 35% 3 point shooter in B12 games, means teams can't ignore him on the outside. Even when teams where, he was still driving on teams even they were sagging and being very successful with that.

Marcus Garrett will never be an elite offensive player and I haven't seen anyone suggest that, but his shooting numbers suggest he is nowhere near the liability on offense that you are claiming him to be.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Agree. Garrett doesn't need to score to be a very important part of next year's team.

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@jayballer73 Nobody is accusing you of bashing Garrett. You're also sounding like you think Garrett has to average 15 a game and be a focal point on offense to make up for his offensive short comings and nobody is suggesting that either.

Even if KU lands Moss and/or Wilson, Marcus will be a starter for KU next season and average 25-30 mpg while averaging somewhere around 7-9 ppg. An uptick in his shooting, more than possible considering he is a career 35% 3 point shooter in B12 games, means teams can't ignore him on the outside. Even when teams where, he was still driving on teams even they were sagging and being very successful with that.

Marcus Garrett will never be an elite offensive player and I haven't seen anyone suggest that, but his shooting numbers suggest he is nowhere near the liability on offense that you are claiming him to be.

Man I sure the hell don't know where your getting that I think he has to be a 15 ppg player - -that's just down right laughable wow where you get that from. - Bottom line is if you don't think he is a liability you need to go back and see some of those crazy ass shots from last season - let me say this one more time - -he is for sure beyond a shadow of a doubt a liability on the offensive end - -end of story. it is useless to continue this - - - -this is what I hate with some of these topics - we just continue to go back and forth - - back and forth - -and we get nowhere. - -your not going to change my opinion & I'm not going to change yours so it's time to just go to the next one - it's ok to have your opinion but some seem it's NOT ok for me and others to have ours - -what the hell is up with that? - -just let it go and go to the next topic - obvious nothing is going to change here.

Many Many people feel the same as I do on this - -many feel the way you do -- face it Marcus is just not a shooter never will be. - Marcus IS a defensive specialist. - you think he was making people pay last year scoring ummm ya ok - -your going to see even more of teams sagging off of him - -like was mentioned by Elite - - some of his three point makes last year could of swore he was gonna shatter the back board - - ugly - - ugly - -shot - stil wouldn't trade the kid love him on the defensive end. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

It’s hard to rebound a Garrett miss because the paint is packed with defenders. He really must get better at shooting if he’s to stay on the floor more than 15mpg.

@HighEliteMajor I agree for the most part, I said he averaged less than 5 ppg before the second half of his junior season, not after. Also I'm not talking about outside shooting alone. Garrett isn't as good of a shooter as them guys no question but they weren't good shooters either. He is as good or better in just about every other facet of the game than them as a sophomore IMO.

@kjayhawks On his ppg, I looked at the last half of his junior season, on points scored. Regarding Releford, his PER was 17.4 for his career, 17.9 his sophomore season. Garrett is 12.3 for two season, 12.8 last season. But Garrett is a better rebounder by 1.2 per 40 min played, and .5 more on steals per 40. I couldn't find RRob's PER, and stats are hard to compare because RRob played point -- thus assists/steals higher as a consequence. I think they all all/were excellent defenders. Good guys to compare.