?s

Yeah. WTH?

So I was perusing and found this from MLK. It's often quite interesting to read his actual words, vs how he is portrayed now which is essentially a toothless cartoon version.

"Urban riots must now be recognized as durable social phenomena. They may be deplored, but they are there and should be understood. Urban riots are a special form of violence. They are not insurrections. The rioters are not seeking to seize territory or to attain control of institutions. They are mainly intended to shock the white community. They are a distorted form of social protest. The looting which is their principal feature serves many functions. It enables the most enraged and deprived Negro to take hold of consumer goods with the ease the white man does by using his purse. Often the Negro does not even want what he takes; he wants the experience of taking. But most of all, alienated from society and knowing that this society cherishes property above people, he is shocking it by abusing property rights. There are thus elements of emotional catharsis in the violent act. This may explain why most cities in which riots have occurred have not had a repetition, even though the causative conditions remain. It is also noteworthy that the amount of physical harm done to white people other than police is infinitesimal and in Detroit whites and Negroes looted in unity.

A profound judgment of today's riots was expressed by Victor Hugo a century ago. He said, 'If a soul is left in the darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but he who causes the darkness.'

The policymakers of the white society have caused the darkness; they create discrimination; they structured slums; and they perpetuate unemployment, ignorance and poverty. It is incontestable and deplorable that Negroes have committed crimes; but they are derivative crimes. They are born of the greater crimes of the white society. When we ask Negroes to abide by the law, let us also demand that the white man abide by law in the ghettos. Day-in and day-out he violates welfare laws to deprive the poor of their meager allotments; he flagrantly violates building codes and regulations; his police make a mockery of law; and he violates laws on equal employment and education and the provisions for civic services. The slums are the handiwork of a vicious system of the white society; Negroes live in them but do not make them any more than a prisoner makes a prison. Let us say boldly that if the violations of law by the white man in the slums over the years were calculated and compared with the law-breaking of a few days of riots, the hardened criminal would be the white man. These are often difficult things to say but I have come to see more and more that it is necessary to utter the truth in order to deal with the great problems that we face in our society."

@BShark I have never heard that before. I hate violence! But I hate what happened to mr Floyd even more. I would've been arrested if I'd have been there. I couldn't stand there and watch that. That's murder. Then there's the dumbass gal in the park, the man in the gym, the vigilantes, The people hanging an effigy of the Kentucky gov. A Supreme Court judge in New Jersey asked a alleged rape victim IF she tried to close her legs. I'm done. What a shitty world.

@Crimsonorblue22 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@BShark I have never heard that before. I hate violence! But I hate what happened to mr Floyd even more. I would've been arrested if I'd have been there. I couldn't stand there and watch that. That's murder. Then there's the dumbass gal in the park, the man in the gym, the vigilantes, The people hanging an effigy of the Kentucky gov. A Supreme Court judge in New Jersey asked a alleged rape victim IF she tried to close her legs. I'm done. What a shitty world.

Had not heard about that last one and only shit.

We continue to militarize the police and allow them to do as they please. They often get little to no repercussions for their actions. Only a fool believes the police are actually here to protect and serve, it is a business that makes money. The same goes for the prison system, they don’t want to rehabilitate anyone. They want you back so they collect more money. @BShark i usually enjoy most of MLKs opinions and teachings, I’m just not sure that pertains to a ton 60 years later. I honestly don’t think this was race triggered. Just an A$$hole cop thinking he’s tough with 3 others. They all 4 should without question be charged with murder if there is any decency left in our judicial system.

Don't get me wrong, there are many great police men. I know several. But not these guys!

We have a problem:
🐦 View Tweet?s=21

I don’t even know what to say. This is what we get when the “leader of the free world” repeatedly calls the press the “enemy of the people.” (Specifically CNN) This video is one of the many reasons that rhetoric is just not ok. I’m not saying he CANT say it. He’s free to say what he wants, but man is it irresponsible.

@benshawks08 Oh cool. His response is “when the looting starts, the shooting starts” can’t see what could go wrong there.

@Crimsonorblue22 Yes I wasn’t meaning to insinuate that all cops are bad, one of my good friends is a State Trooper. I’m just saying they are a business not a non profit, they have to make money.

Rough few days for America.

If you support folks that murder people, you are disgusting. If you rationalize it, if you make excuses, if you try to explain it, you are disgusting.

If you support folks that loot, burn and destroy others property, you are disgusting. If you rationalize it, if you make excuses, if you try to explain it, you are disgusting.

I support police. I support the right to protest. But I support neither disgusting position outlined above. Supporting police and supporting protest have nothing to do with this week's events.

Of course, the murderous thugs are worse. But murder is murder and one must look to blame the folks that do it and hold them accountable. But this is what I’ve said all along. It’s what I said when the OP cop murdered an innocent teenager. It’s what I say now. It’s what I said when inner city carnage claims the life of innocent inner-city citizens nightly. It’s what I say now.

I value life. I want murder to stop.

There is not one solution. There is not one point of blame.

But one thing is undeniable - murderers make the choice to pull the trigger, thrust a knife, or stuff their knee into a person’s throat. Looters, arsonists, and those that cause carnage, make the same choice.

Personal responsibility. Not excuses. Value life. This is really the only true answer.

@HighEliteMajor the people in power need to take personal responsibility for the systematic oppression that has caused such vitriol’s anger to fester in communities of color all over the country. The Hate U Give. That anger is being stirred by the leader of the country on his twitter account every day. Reports that white supremacists are infiltrating peaceful protests to instigate violence against people of color. It is very clear to me who the “thugs” in this situation are. They carry very big guns and hate in their hearts. Anger is a reaction, hate is a continuous state of being. Take responsibility for your own self, your own actions, your own support of an absolute disgrace of a president before demanding others take responsibility for themselves. Try looking inward just once. Maybe it’s too hard because you know you won’t like what you see.

Ask yourself how long it would take to arrest a black man if video evidence even suggested he murdered a police officer. Would it be days? What about all his friends who watched and helped? Would they still be walking free or would they be in custody? The system is broken. Peaceful protests have failed to motivate people in power to fix it. How pissed off were folks when Kaep kneeled? What could be more peaceful. The destruction of property is sad. Hard to watch. Frightening. The state sponsored destruction of life is intolerable. They are not equivalent.

Read this thread from a KU great:
🐦 View Tweet?s=21

Good guy Nick. I am going to donate too.

!4020E012-2A9E-407C-93DE-0741019F9482.jpeg ↗

When it’s okay for your political party to be racist, rape and sexual assault others it really shows that you just don’t care.

Saying they're thugs doesn't mean they are racist and Trump or Obama are ok with rape and sexual assault. Is that what u mean?

@Crimsonorblue22 Biden and Clinton are both sexual predators, they get no flack for it. Both have also made racist comments. If you are against that stuff, I can’t see why you’d support either. It’s always the lesser of two evils friends.

@kjayhawks So you agree the entire system is messed up? I think Obama was wrong to use that word. Biden was the least of the democratic candidates.

Neither are on the same level as trump. If you can’t see that, you are willfully blind and ignorant.

@kjayhawks They get plenty of flack for it if you listen to the right people.

@benshawks08 yes the system is messed up. But there can’t be any gray areas. Either you support racism and sexual assault or you don’t! I don’t!

@kjayhawks The entire world is grey friend. I work hard everyday to be anti racist. And agree that we all should speak up against racism whenever and wherever we see it. Hopefully my posts on this board reflect that. If not I’m glad to be held accountable for it because I know I’m not perfect and have systematically embedded biases I have not yet overcome. Glad you feel the same.

@kjayhawks has Biden's been proved? I'm not a Clinton fan but I think it was consensual. He's a liar. So are you leaving trump out?

@Crimsonorblue22 most of the republicans haven’t been proven either. If you are gonna denounce opposition have the guts to do the same to your own party.

@kjayhawks Clinton is a what? I voted republican for presidents till trump came a long, not that it's your business. Clinton is a liar, doesn't matter what party to me, I hate liars, in real life too.

@Crimsonorblue22 Biden is liar and god awful handsey, I wouldn’t be shocked if his accusers were telling the truth. I personally think just about all politicians are liars.

What happened to George Floyd is why Colin Kaepernick chose to kneel during the national anthem. Why did it take Derek Chauvin 4 days to be arrested with that evidence out there?

Colin Kaepernick chose a nonviolent way to protest an injustice he saw. He was ignored, ridiculed, and the media (both sides) ignored Kaepernick's message and turned his protest into something political instead of addressing the social issues at play.

Even while still preaching and advocating nonviolence, Dr. King addressed the tactics and advocacy of violence by other Civil Rights leaders such as Malcolm X and Stokely Carmichael during an interview with Mike Wallace. During the interview, Dr. King gave his view on what riots represent, "I think that we've got to see that a riot is the language of the unheard. And, what is it that America has failed to hear?"

At the time, Dr. King said it was the economic inequality between black and white. Today, it's ignoring the systemic racism of legal inequality between law enforcement and the black community that's leading to most of these riots.

For anybody wondering about the "when the looting starts, the shooting starts" quote's origins, it does have an extremely racist history. It was first used in the 1967 by former Miami Police Chief, Walter Headley about cleaning up the slums of Miami. It was also used by former Alabama Governor George Wallace during his 1968 presidential campaign.

Here’s a good article for any white folks who are angry, upset, but not sure what to do about it. For people who want to take “personal responsibility” for their role in our society.

https://medium.com/national-equity-project/what-if-white-people-took-responsibility-for-our-role-in-this-moment-12b979d27eb6 ↗

If only white people posted more Instagram stories about race, then everything will be ok.

I swear by the end of this critical race theory is going to be more dangerous than COVID.

@FarmerJayhawk So in your opinion, white people learning and seeking understanding of racism, it’s origins, and it’s current impact is bad? That seems helpful. Glad you’re doing your part.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk So in your opinion, white people learning and seeking understanding of racism, it’s origins, and it’s current impact is bad? That seems helpful. Glad you’re doing your part.

I’m not going to let CRT, which dehumanizes people and when taken to its logical conclusion, ends with anarchy and then authoritarianism, dictate my thoughts and actions.

I’ve been fighting for immigration, police, and criminal justice reform since I could vote. I’m proud of that. Sorry I’m being # hash tag PRAWBLUMATIK

@FarmerJayhawk Tell me more about why you think understanding the origins of “whiteness” and the history of racism is not important work for white people to do. Is racism an issue of importance for you? Are you angered by the actions of the officers in Minneapolis? I’m really just trying to understand where you are coming from and know you have a history of fully explaining your stance. Where are you at in your head right now?

Doing anything mindfully because you are a particular race may highlight a problem, and it may exacerbate it. But it doesn't fix it.

I think a lot of people are tired of having to talk about race. And a lot of people feel they have to talk about it and/or should because of systemic inequality.

We tried to not see color, and that may have worked a little. We have tried equal opportunity and that might have worked a little. I don't think it's too late to grant some land and a modern day mule (maybe a Toyota Yaris) to every descendant of a slave. Either that or go with some sort of socialist agenda that grants free shit to all. I don't know.

The scars of slavery need to be acknowledged and a concensus that we need to move past it aggressively needs to be acknowledged by all. The festering needs to stop. Bring the NAACP to the table and negotiate reparations. Let's get this shit straight officially, so we can move on from it as one nation.

Once we address the backdrop of social inequality rooted in slavery, we can tackle separately the actions of racist assholes like this police officer and remove the powder keg behind it.

This doesn't fix everything, but it gets us further down the road. Acknowledge, come to consensus, move on as a desired thing by all to achieve resolution, try not to go back. Rinse, repeat.

@approxinfinity Failing to recognize your own position in society as a white person is one of many reasons racism continues to be one of the biggest problems in America. White people have a responsibility to step up right now and reckon with the disparity the current system has created.

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/05/9841376/black-trauma-george-floyd-dear-white-people ↗

@approxinfinity Maybe you weren’t saying what I thought you were with the original shorter post.

@benshawks08 I'm tired of being identified as a white person. That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that I am afforded certain privileges for being white. I'm just saying it's f'ing exhausting, demeaning and unfair for everyone to be forced inside a box that is their race and have others look at them as their race being their primary characteristic. The very same thing that people resent on one side is the thing they are asking the other side to willingly embrace for themselves. It's nonsensical.

At the heart of a position of privilege is finances. It's something that can be resolved via agreement, whereas emotions and prejudices cannot. I would also argue that emotions and prejudices are reactive whereas addressing finances is proactive. So let's get a number on the table financially and square that part of it up. The rest hopefully follows, albeit with a long tail.

@approxinfinity That exhaustion you feel is what black people go through every moment of their life. It’s why we as white people have to do it. Racial disparity still exists no matter a persons finances. If a black person speaks, their voice is automatically racialized. So we as white people have to racialize our voice as well. To not, is to assume that white is the norm and anything else is divergent and different.

I agree it’s not fun. It’s exhausting. It’s frustrating. We can’t just buy our way out of our racist past and present. I totally agree that finances are a huge issue but perceptions, thoughts, and emotions can’t be bought. It takes work to shift those. Work that is exhausting and frustrating and in no way simple.

In order for there to be true equality, white people have to give up power. That’s going to be painful. People on the bottom asking those with it to step back and take a walk in their shoes is never nonsensical. That’s empathy. And it’s the least they can ask for.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk Tell me more about why you think understanding the origins of “whiteness” and the history of racism is not important work for white people to do. Is racism an issue of importance for you? Are you angered by the actions of the officers in Minneapolis? I’m really just trying to understand where you are coming from and know you have a history of fully explaining your stance. Where are you at in your head right now?

I'm all for reading history and gaining an understanding of the world. However, CRT is the exact wrong lens for anyone to view what is obviously a horrific crime through. A theory that boils people down to their skin color and as one of its tenets says that to be of a particular race, you have to hold a specific set of views, is societal poison. A theory that accepts no dissent, no conversation except on its terms, and if you question it you're obviously mentally defective at best is horrible for society. A theory and worldview that has an anchor of life is all about hierarchies and struggles for power foments those exact things. I've seen it when brought to these conclusions at Evergreen State College and Yale. We've seen it in the press the last couple days with certain segments of the population encouraging the riots and "burn it all (meaning mostly minority-owned businesses) down" in the name of "justice."

I stand with Rep. John Lewis (D-GA) who marched with Dr. King, "Rioting, looting, and burning is not the way. Organize. Demonstrate. Sit-in. Stand-up. Vote. Be constructive, not destructive. History has proven time and again that non-violent, peaceful protest is the way to achieve the justice and equality that we all deserve."

“Our work won't be easy — nothing worth having ever is — but I strongly believe, as Dr. King once said, that while the arc of the moral universe is long, it bends toward justice.”

My focus has been and always will be on equality and equalizing everyone's opportunities in society (i.e. equality instead of equity). Are we there yet? Of course not. But I'm tired of being told this is inadequate and shows my "privilege." I want the boot of the state off the neck of the black community, the brown community, and everyone else. Don't put the weight of the state behind or on top of anyone. Respect all our individuality and rights equally, and follow the liberal ordering of society.

@FarmerJayhawk said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk Tell me more about why you think understanding the origins of “whiteness” and the history of racism is not important work for white people to do. Is racism an issue of importance for you? Are you angered by the actions of the officers in Minneapolis? I’m really just trying to understand where you are coming from and know you have a history of fully explaining your stance. Where are you at in your head right now?

I'm all for reading history and gaining an understanding of the world. However, CRT is the exact wrong lens for anyone to view what is obviously a horrific crime through. A theory that boils people down to their skin color and as one of its tenets says that to be of a particular race, you have to hold a specific set of views, is societal poison. A theory that accepts no dissent, no conversation except on its terms, and if you question it you're obviously mentally defective at best is horrible for society. A theory and worldview that has an anchor of life is all about hierarchies and struggles for power foments those exact things. I've seen it when brought to these conclusions at Evergreen State College and Yale. We've seen it in the press the last couple days with certain segments of the population encouraging the riots and "burn it all (meaning mostly minority-owned businesses) down" in the name of "justice."

I stand with Rep. John Lewis (D-GA) who marched with Dr. King, "Rioting, looting, and burning is not the way. Organize. Demonstrate. Sit-in. Stand-up. Vote. Be constructive, not destructive. History has proven time and again that non-violent, peaceful protest is the way to achieve the justice and equality that we all deserve."

“Our work won't be easy — nothing worth having ever is — but I strongly believe, as Dr. King once said, that while the arc of the moral universe is long, it bends toward justice.”

My focus has been and always will be on equality and equalizing everyone's opportunities in society (i.e. equality instead of equity). Are we there yet? Of course not. But I'm tired of being told this is inadequate and shows my "privilege." I want the boot of the state off the neck of the black community, the brown community, and everyone else. Don't put the weight of the state behind or on top of anyone. Respect all our individuality and rights equally, and follow the liberal ordering of society.

Ok, but if you agree we aren’t at equality yet then that is inadequate, right? How long have we been working towards equality? I’m tired of people doing everything they can to make sure we don’t “go too far.” Yes it sucks to be constantly reminded of the privilege we hold as white people but certainly it doesn’t compare to being constantly reminded that you don’t matter as much as people of another race.

The people in power ARE NOT “respecting all our individuality and rights equally” and have no intention of giving up that power if they are not forced to do so. To be clear, I think destroying property and “burning it all down“ with respect to businesses is wrong. That doesn’t mean I can’t empathize with why people feel the need to do such things. Peaceful protests have happened after every majorly covered instance of police violence and very little has changed. Police are more militarized than ever and the president is advocating the shooting and brutalization of folks out protesting. As far as I know, the penalty for looting is not and should not be death.

I’m tired of white people being tired. We’ve ignored the plight and tacitly accepted inequality for too long. I’m taking action by reading black voices, voting, donating time, donating money, Supporting community events, calling elected officials, VOTING, having tough conversations with my family, and calling out racism whenever and wherever I see it. If these things upset, frustrate, or exhaust white folks, I’m guess I’m ok with that.

@benshawks08 There's a difference between accepting guilt for something you didn't do and being sympathetic. I'm sympathetic and always have been, but that's because it's who I am. Other people aren't as sympathetic. And that's who they are. You can't force adults to be sympathetic. And it's dangerous to try to. I'm not exhausted for being sympathetic, I pride myself on that. I'm exhausted for being blamed.

Articles entitled "Hey white people" can f right off.

That article mentioned that a disproportionate number of COVID victims were black. Finances will always be at the heart of black-white racial tension in this country. Health insurance, higher education, property, and a chance to pursue the same American dream.

People are quick to dismiss the notion of throwing money at the problem. To me, dismissing pursuing the financial side is a willingness to wallow in self loathing and resentment as a nation rather than attempting to find a way we can move on. As you said, white people need to give up power. Money is power and influence. More and more people of color are taking office. I would say that we are heading on the right track there.

@approxinfinity said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 There's a difference between accepting guilt for something you didn't do and being sympathetic. I'm sympathetic and always have been, but that's because it's who I am. Other people aren't as sympathetic. And that's who they are. You can't force adults to be sympathetic. And it's dangerous to try to. I'm not exhausted for being sympathetic, I pride myself on that. I'm exhausted for being blamed.

Articles entitled "Hey white people" can f right off.

That article mentioned that a disproportionate number of COVID victims were black. Finances will always be at the heart of black-white racial tension in this country. Health insurance, higher education, property, and a chance to pursue the same American dream.

People are quick to dismiss the notion of throwing money at the problem. To me, dismissing pursuing the financial side is a willingness to wallow in self loathing and resentment as a nation rather than attempting to find a way we can move on. As you said, white people need to give up power. Money is power and influence. More and more people of color are taking office. I would say that we are heading on the right track there.

Well all the guilt I have is for things I haven’t done! Slavery wasn’t my fault, I have no guilt for that. However, have I seen dramatic inequality by race and not acted? Yep. That’s the guilt I have and honestly it doesn’t get me anywhere. I’m not asking people to feel guilt. I’m asking people to take action. Living in guilt is exactly what you said, “wallowing in self loathing.”

Why is it dangerous to work to get folks to feel? To feel empathy and sympathy enrich my life and if we don’t encourage others to engage those feelings, what the hell are we doing?

Blame is a funny thing. So many people NEED someone to blame in almost every situation. I personally try to not be like that. Instead I’m trying to understand where people are coming from and what is motivating their action or a lack there of. That may not have come across in my recent posts. My biggest issue I think is that for so long racism has been a problem that black people have had to deal with and most white people (especially sympathetic ones like you and me) haven’t. But racism is white peoples problem. We are the one benefiting from systems admittedly we (as in you and I) didn’t create. But to me, if a person isn’t fighting to change those systems right now, then they are part of the problem.

I know you are a sympathetic person and I have a lot of respect for you based on what I’ve read in your posts. I hope you don’t think this exchange is changing that. It’s interesting to me that being called white is so upsetting to you. I wonder who is really wallowing in self loathing here? I’m not ashamed of being white. I have no guilt for being white. I have unearned power due to my race and feel responsible to use that power to make change where I can and give up that power wherever I can to empower voices not as readily heard as mine.

I’m pretty sure I agreed that the financial issue you brought up is a real one and money and power definitely go hand and hand. I’m not dismissing your idea as it’s a good one. And I do agree it’s the right place to start. I’d be hesitant to connect the reparations to a direct connection to slavery as a big part of slavery was a lack of ancestral tracing due to rape, family separatism etc. And honestly, with my partner being a part of the Potawatomi tribe, the US government doesn’t have a great track record regarding things like blood quantum, ancestral heritage and the like.

@approxinfinity said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 There's a difference between accepting guilt for something you didn't do and being sympathetic. I'm sympathetic and always have been, but that's because it's who I am. Other people aren't as sympathetic. And that's who they are. You can't force adults to be sympathetic. And it's dangerous to try to. I'm not exhausted for being sympathetic, I pride myself on that. I'm exhausted for being blamed.

Articles entitled "Hey white people" can f right off.

That article mentioned that a disproportionate number of COVID victims were black. Finances will always be at the heart of black-white racial tension in this country. Health insurance, higher education, property, and a chance to pursue the same American dream.

People are quick to dismiss the notion of throwing money at the problem. To me, dismissing pursuing the financial side is a willingness to wallow in self loathing and resentment as a nation rather than attempting to find a way we can move on. As you said, white people need to give up power. Money is power and influence. More and more people of color are taking office. I would say that we are heading on the right track there.

Here's why throwing money at this particular issue won't solve anything long term, it would just be a bandaid on a bullet holes. How many times have we seen people that don't have much money win the lottery and end up broke shortly thereafter? How many athletes have ended up broke shortly after their playing careers? How people did you see on social media buying dumb stuff with their stimulus check instead of using it for its intended purpose?

If you really want to use money to create real change that will have a long term positive impact, use that money to invest in infrastructure of black communities. Invest in black businesses, build police precincts in black communities and hire black officers from those communities to be stationed at those precincts, invest in schools that have up to date technology staffed with black teachers from those same communities. Probably the most important thing would be don't allow gentrification to happen when those communities start changing and forcing the black people out to find another neighborhood to live in because that just restarts the cycle again.

@Crimsonorblue22 - "What a shitty world"

Interestingly enough, that was the original lyric for Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful World". They just weren't sure how many records it would sell.

Update: I will be voting this next election, for Biden obviously. Holy crap is Trump incompetent.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk Tell me more about why you think understanding the origins of “whiteness” and the history of racism is not important work for white people to do. Is racism an issue of importance for you? Are you angered by the actions of the officers in Minneapolis? I’m really just trying to understand where you are coming from and know you have a history of fully explaining your stance. Where are you at in your head right now?

I'm all for reading history and gaining an understanding of the world. However, CRT is the exact wrong lens for anyone to view what is obviously a horrific crime through. A theory that boils people down to their skin color and as one of its tenets says that to be of a particular race, you have to hold a specific set of views, is societal poison. A theory that accepts no dissent, no conversation except on its terms, and if you question it you're obviously mentally defective at best is horrible for society. A theory and worldview that has an anchor of life is all about hierarchies and struggles for power foments those exact things. I've seen it when brought to these conclusions at Evergreen State College and Yale. We've seen it in the press the last couple days with certain segments of the population encouraging the riots and "burn it all (meaning mostly minority-owned businesses) down" in the name of "justice."

I stand with Rep. John Lewis (D-GA) who marched with Dr. King, "Rioting, looting, and burning is not the way. Organize. Demonstrate. Sit-in. Stand-up. Vote. Be constructive, not destructive. History has proven time and again that non-violent, peaceful protest is the way to achieve the justice and equality that we all deserve."

“Our work won't be easy — nothing worth having ever is — but I strongly believe, as Dr. King once said, that while the arc of the moral universe is long, it bends toward justice.”

My focus has been and always will be on equality and equalizing everyone's opportunities in society (i.e. equality instead of equity). Are we there yet? Of course not. But I'm tired of being told this is inadequate and shows my "privilege." I want the boot of the state off the neck of the black community, the brown community, and everyone else. Don't put the weight of the state behind or on top of anyone. Respect all our individuality and rights equally, and follow the liberal ordering of society.

Ok, but if you agree we aren’t at equality yet then that is inadequate, right? How long have we been working towards equality? I’m tired of people doing everything they can to make sure we don’t “go too far.” Yes it sucks to be constantly reminded of the privilege we hold as white people but certainly it doesn’t compare to being constantly reminded that you don’t matter as much as people of another race.

The people in power ARE NOT “respecting all our individuality and rights equally” and have no intention of giving up that power if they are not forced to do so. To be clear, I think destroying property and “burning it all down“ with respect to businesses is wrong. That doesn’t mean I can’t empathize with why people feel the need to do such things. Peaceful protests have happened after every majorly covered instance of police violence and very little has changed. Police are more militarized than ever and the president is advocating the shooting and brutalization of folks out protesting. As far as I know, the penalty for looting is not and should not be death.

I’m tired of white people being tired. We’ve ignored the plight and tacitly accepted inequality for too long. I’m taking action by reading black voices, voting, donating time, donating money, Supporting community events, calling elected officials, VOTING, having tough conversations with my family, and calling out racism whenever and wherever I see it. If these things upset, frustrate, or exhaust white folks, I’m guess I’m ok with that.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm working toward equality every single day and am proud of what I've accomplished in that regard so far in changing public policy. I just get tired of other whites who don't know me (most of whom are whiter than myself, since I have a Native great grandparent) that my efforts aren't adequate.

And I still believe every worldview that doesn't feel inequality is adequate is a poisonous mind virus that'll tear society apart at the seams because its logical conclusions lead to some very, very scary stuff like depriving people of their own individual identities (like under CRT you're not really black unless you hold the right views about race.) It's a deeply pessimistic, cynical, and arguably paranoid view of society that never prescribes any real solutions (because it can't, it says so explicitly in the theory under the banner of there being no such thing as objective truth). As an example, this quote directly from a CRT text, "Third, CRT questions liberalism and the ability of a system of law built on it to create a just society. An interest convergence critique posits that white elites will tolerate or encourage racial advances for blacks only when such advances also promote white self-interest." Liberalism, understood as a societal code with equal protection under law, is the highest ideal. I'll have nothing to do with CRT's poison. And I admit that makes me analogous to the Klan under CRT but I really don't care. My record speaks for itself.

https://m. ↗

🐦 View Tweet?s=21

I hear folks all over saying there needs to be an "honest" conversation. I've tried that. I tried it here. But whenever the conversation gets uncomfortable, or it strays into territories that leftists see as off limits, the conversation ends.

Remember, police have to have a high presence in high crime areas or the good citizens will be the victims. If there is not high crime, then there is not a high police presence. That's how it works. When police see, day after day, black men committing horrible crimes, which is a fact in the inner city. It's an undeniable fact. The lesser of those cops take the brutality route. Day after day, the same thing.

Policing in high crime areas is not nice. Policing attracts man folks that are on power trips and that have violent tempers. The worst sort of personality one might think for the job. In some situations, their aggressiveness may save lives.

But it's why you have police brutality. Because you have many of the wrong personalities in police work. And they can't control themselves based on what they see day to day.

There are many pieces to this puzzle. One is that the inner city black culture, the same stuff I have railed against, has to change. That's one piece. And until there is some sort of moral foundation, that piece will never end.

A small sampling from Minneapolis, this one from the last September. And right, you see crap like this regularly.

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2019/09/16/20-arrested-18-charged-in-brutal-downtown-minneapolis-robberies/ ↗

Of course, my thread that pretty much devolved into anything but a discussion. There is no discussion when you challenge a leftist, even if the purpose and concern is to protect the lives and safety of the good inner city folks. It doesn't matter. You say "race", the leftist convulses.

Folks act in cultures. Many sub-cultures are grouped by race. This is one. The destructive inner city black culture.

But guess which else is one -- the cop culture. This is a huge issue that is part of the problem. But see the leftists will only acknowledge "culture" when it works for them. An important distinction when it comes to rationality.

Until the the self-inflicted issues are address in the inner city, all the money thrown that way won't do any good. The way people think and approach life is the only thing that keeps folks from killing and maiming.

/topic/9118

Here's a post I made in this topic when asked what I'd do in the inner city -

@Kcmatt7 At the core, this starts with acknowledging the problem. That’s the impasse. Until the problem is ID’d and acknowledged, you can’t attack it. The fact is it is an inner city culture of violence. Changing culture takes a long time.

First identify “inner city safety zones.”

1. Public steps to involve the churches and faiths. Get people to church in these zones. The church is a huge factor in turning this around.

2. Public steps to encourage and foster marriage. Inner city safety zones that reward folks for marriage and self sufficiency. But more, public efforts to discuss and call out the “baby mama” culture. This is the real enemy. 75% single mother births among blacks. Worse among inner city blacks. Much higher than other races or cultures.

3. The president has to take the lead. I felt Obama missed an historic opportunity. Trump obviously can’t do it. We need another president to make this job one. The first domestic priority. The one where the most lives are lost/destroyed.

4. Have special inner city safety zone courts that expedite prosecutions, warrants, and labeling of threats.

5. We have hate crime legislation that leads to outrageous results. Use that logic. Huge sentences for crimes in inner city zones were the real violence is occurring. Drive by and shoot a little black child on a porch, life in prison regardless of whether there is a death. Wear a mask in a crime, 5 more years. Robbery, any kind, 40 years. Develop a ridiculously strict sentencing structure for inner city safety zones.

6. Inner city gang affiliation prosecuted as RICO crimes. Increase sentences for inner city safety zones. You go to jail for being in a criminal gang. Just for affiliation.

7. Stop and frisk permitted in inner city zones of all males. Horrible? Discriminatory? Yes on both counts. Too bad. Males are 95% of the problem.

8. If you have a felony conviction for anything violent, or you are an ID’d gang member by the safety zone courts, inner city zone warrants automatically issued for random searches of home and auto. Inner city courts can order drug treatment without a trial. 90 day commitments.

9. In inner city safety zones, curfews strictly enforced. Cars pulled over after 10:00. People off the streets. Only to and from work and a few other exceptions. Businesses close at 9:00.

10. Posting of army style officers that walk a beat in these areas. In pairs. No female cops in these areas. No male cops under 200 pounds. Much higher pay. Elite training. Federal involvement in supporting/training.

11. Air surveillance, like a war zone.

12. Massive use of food kitchens. Free meals in all inner city safety zones. No one starves. No one steals for food. Involvement of churches is a must.

13. Partnership program for schools with suburban districts. Vouchers (money) for “tuition” and transport. Partnership programs include working families so inner city kids can live with suburban families during the week and attend school there. Work with the suburban private schools too.

These are tax dollars I’m willing to pay.

Of course, this is all discriminatory. I want to discriminate IN FAVOR of protecting good inner city folks. I noticed that over 70% of Baltimore residents were in favor of police air surveillance while the ACLU says it’s discriminatory. That should tell everyone something. The majority of inner city folks aren’t part of the culture. They want safety, security, and the ability to succeed.

These thugs are the enemy. Try to change their hearts and minds, but attack the criminals is they won’t change. Culture change takes time.

This isn’t perfect. It’s a discussion point. I am just sickened by the violence and the loss of lives that no one values.

Just off the top of my head. I know, impossible. But you asked.

I've also posted this before. I want a high quality police force. Pay officers $120,000 year or whatever is high for an area. Attract better people. It seems simple, but better people make better decisions. The "cop" mentality -- I'm the boss, I'm in control, I have power -- is a high contributor. The cop culture. Personally, I think non-cops should be in charge of cops. Folks that understand the law. Folks that aren't part of the culture.

To change certain elements of the police requires non-police to be in charge. And when the shroud of the cop culture is lifted, the many, many excellent officers will be able to change that culture.

@HighEliteMajor I’m going to try real hard to engage in conversation that doesn’t immediately turn you off. I am disagreeing with you but that doesn’t mean it’s not dialogue.

Do you honestly believe further militarizing The police and increasing the discriminatory actions of those more militarized police will fix this problem? This is the least logical plan I have ever seen. Those tactics are the exact reason for these protests and your solution is do more of it? Are you listening at all to the people on the streets this week crying out to be heard?

We agree that cop culture is an issue. My brother is a police officer and I noticed changes in the way he thinks and talks after about 3 months. I just don’t understand how a person can see cops on a power trip and then think providing that culture with unlimited resources and power is the way forward. It doesn’t matter how much you pay a person. If you tell them their job is to as you say discriminate every day and give them military style weapons and resources to do so, you are creating power hungry racists. Humans just aren’t capable of the extraordinary level of compartmentalization that would entail.

@HighEliteMajor said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

I hear folks all over saying there needs to be an "honest" conversation. I've tried that. I tried it here. But whenever the conversation gets uncomfortable, or it strays into territories that leftists see as off limits, the conversation ends.

Remember, police have to have a high presence in high crime areas or the good citizens will be the victims. If there is not high crime, then there is not a high police presence. That's how it works. When police see, day after day, black men committing horrible crimes, which is a fact in the inner city. It's an undeniable fact. The lesser of those cops take the brutality route. Day after day, the same thing.

Policing in high crime areas is not nice. Policing attracts man folks that are on power trips and that have violent tempers. The worst sort of personality one might think for the job. In some situations, their aggressiveness may save lives.

But it's why you have police brutality. Because you have many of the wrong personalities in police work. And they can't control themselves based on what they see day to day.

There are many pieces to this puzzle. One is that the inner city black culture, the same stuff I have railed against, has to change. That's one piece. And until there is some sort of moral foundation, that piece will never end.

A small sampling from Minneapolis, this one from the last September. And right, you see crap like this regularly.

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2019/09/16/20-arrested-18-charged-in-brutal-downtown-minneapolis-robberies/ ↗

Of course, my thread that pretty much devolved into anything but a discussion. There is no discussion when you challenge a leftist, even if the purpose and concern is to protect the lives and safety of the good inner city folks. It doesn't matter. You say "race", the leftist convulses.

Folks act in cultures. Many sub-cultures are grouped by race. This is one. The destructive inner city black culture.

But guess which else is one -- the cop culture. This is a huge issue that is part of the problem. But see the leftists will only acknowledge "culture" when it works for them. An important distinction when it comes to rationality.

Until the the self-inflicted issues are address in the inner city, all the money thrown that way won't do any good. The way people think and approach life is the only thing that keeps folks from killing and maiming.

/topic/9118

Here's a post I made in this topic when asked what I'd do in the inner city -

---

@Kcmatt7 At the core, this starts with acknowledging the problem. That’s the impasse. Until the problem is ID’d and acknowledged, you can’t attack it. The fact is it is an inner city culture of violence. Changing culture takes a long time.

First identify “inner city safety zones.”

1. Public steps to involve the churches and faiths. Get people to church in these zones. The church is a huge factor in turning this around.

2. Public steps to encourage and foster marriage. Inner city safety zones that reward folks for marriage and self sufficiency. But more, public efforts to discuss and call out the “baby mama” culture. This is the real enemy. 75% single mother births among blacks. Worse among inner city blacks. Much higher than other races or cultures.

3. The president has to take the lead. I felt Obama missed an historic opportunity. Trump obviously can’t do it. We need another president to make this job one. The first domestic priority. The one where the most lives are lost/destroyed.

4. Have special inner city safety zone courts that expedite prosecutions, warrants, and labeling of threats.

5. We have hate crime legislation that leads to outrageous results. Use that logic. Huge sentences for crimes in inner city zones were the real violence is occurring. Drive by and shoot a little black child on a porch, life in prison regardless of whether there is a death. Wear a mask in a crime, 5 more years. Robbery, any kind, 40 years. Develop a ridiculously strict sentencing structure for inner city safety zones.

6. Inner city gang affiliation prosecuted as RICO crimes. Increase sentences for inner city safety zones. You go to jail for being in a criminal gang. Just for affiliation.

7. Stop and frisk permitted in inner city zones of all males. Horrible? Discriminatory? Yes on both counts. Too bad. Males are 95% of the problem.

8. If you have a felony conviction for anything violent, or you are an ID’d gang member by the safety zone courts, inner city zone warrants automatically issued for random searches of home and auto. Inner city courts can order drug treatment without a trial. 90 day commitments.

9. In inner city safety zones, curfews strictly enforced. Cars pulled over after 10:00. People off the streets. Only to and from work and a few other exceptions. Businesses close at 9:00.

10. Posting of army style officers that walk a beat in these areas. In pairs. No female cops in these areas. No male cops under 200 pounds. Much higher pay. Elite training. Federal involvement in supporting/training.

11. Air surveillance, like a war zone.

12. Massive use of food kitchens. Free meals in all inner city safety zones. No one starves. No one steals for food. Involvement of churches is a must.

13. Partnership program for schools with suburban districts. Vouchers (money) for “tuition” and transport. Partnership programs include working families so inner city kids can live with suburban families during the week and attend school there. Work with the suburban private schools too.

These are tax dollars I’m willing to pay.

Of course, this is all discriminatory. I want to discriminate IN FAVOR of protecting good inner city folks. I noticed that over 70% of Baltimore residents were in favor of police air surveillance while the ACLU says it’s discriminatory. That should tell everyone something. The majority of inner city folks aren’t part of the culture. They want safety, security, and the ability to succeed.

These thugs are the enemy. Try to change their hearts and minds, but attack the criminals is they won’t change. Culture change takes time.

This isn’t perfect. It’s a discussion point. I am just sickened by the violence and the loss of lives that no one values.

Just off the top of my head. I know, impossible. But you asked.

---

I've also posted this before. I want a high quality police force. Pay officers $120,000 year or whatever is high for an area. Attract better people. It seems simple, but better people make better decisions. The "cop" mentality -- I'm the boss, I'm in control, I have power -- is a high contributor. The cop culture. Personally, I think non-cops should be in charge of cops. Folks that understand the law. Folks that aren't part of the culture.

To change certain elements of the police requires non-police to be in charge. And when the shroud of the cop culture is lifted, the many, many excellent officers will be able to change that culture.

I find it interesting that food and education are the last two steps of your plan. I’m glad they are there but they have to be the top priority.

You start with marriage and church which are great for some people but are not viable solutions for a big block of people. Not believing in god and being a single parent does not make someone a bad person.

I agree Obama could have done more. I think the immense pressure of being the first black president made him shy away from directly taking on problems with racism and an opportunity was missed. Why can’t trump do it? I agree he can’t but I know at least originally you were a big supporter. Has that changed? Or was this not really that important of an issue in 2016?

I strongly disagree with the idea that putting more people of color in prison for longer periods of time is going to somehow fix violence in inner cities. How many people get out of prison after long sentences and are changed for the better? I would argue focusing on the humanity all people, even (Maybe even especially) the ones committing crimes is a better way forward. I’m thinking mental health resources, counseling, job training, community involvement. I’ve met gang members and most join because they are looking for a sense of community and belonging. Find ways to give folks that and direct the energy of young people toward the public good. If you take a charismatic 18 year old and throw him in prison for 30 years, you’ve missed an opportunity to foster leadership and change in a community.

As for number 7. As far as I know, inner cities are still part of America even if they do vote blue. I wonder how many of these ideas you’d submit to yourself?

Overall, I just fundamentally disagree with most of this “plan.” A bigger hammer hitting more often is just going to cause more push back and violence. Deescalation is the key and all most of those points are going to do (besides rob people of their freedom) is cause a more violent and angered response. We have to stop thinking about PEOPLE as enemies. People are human beings and I’m always weary of what treating them as anything different does to their humanity as well as that of the enforcers.

Here is an article showing some of the emotional toll of some of HEMs tactics:
https://theathletic.com/1845455/2020/06/01/i-remember-you-crying-encountering-racism-by-staffers-at-the-athletic/ ↗

Financial literacy is a huge issue. Some people can't be helped with it black or white but we need to try.

The truth is that unless you have engaged with and talked to black people you don't understand. It helps to have seen situations first hand too. Like encountering cops while being white with a black friend. That was a fudging eye opener for a young naive to the world bshark many years ago. I stand with all my black brothers and sisters against prejudice and brutality.

I didn’t notice any sentencing or punishment suggestions for police brutality and murder in the numerated plan above. Thoughts there?

@benshawks08 those stories are heart breaking! I had 2 kids on my team followed around in a store in Minnesota. I asked to speak to the manager then I proceeded to tell them about their grades and the school activities they participated in and that they didn't deserve to be Followed! I was shaking cause I was so upset! The tourney before that, in Robinson gym, hotter than hell, one of those kids would wipe the sweat of the chair for me each time we got up. Later, when school started in the fall, that same kid, a 9th grader at hutch, didn't wake up on a sat am. A congenital heart condition. He was a straight A kid, had scored a goal for the varsity soccer team the pm before, played bb, could pitch or do track, he also was in the symphony. All of us that day in Minnesota had just a small taste of what it felt like to walk in their shoes. He had a mom and a dad.

Happens more to people of color but just last week I was an employee following around a couple rougher looking white guys.

@benshawks08 at a minimum all four officers need to be fired. We need better laws in place to protect citizens that are abused by the police. No more temp leave, being shuffled to another town etc. You kill someone and it is shown to be not due to their own life being in danger and they should be done, and probably in jail. It starts with tougher admissions to becoming a cop.

Thank goodness for cell phones now, at least some of them are getting caught. I pray George Zimmerman gets his!

@Crimsonorblue22 It’s great you stood up for your kids. Just to push a little harder though because I know you can take it. What if they weren’t straight a students and involved in school activities? Would they deserve to be followed?

I get that same shaking feeling you had a lot and I think it really shows how out of touch we are with what people of color go through. It’s honestly I big reason why I started posting so much on this board. To practice confronting racism in as non threatening a place as exists for me helps me be better prepared when I encounter it in the real world. My fingers shake sometimes just typing on my phone. I’m in no danger but that adrenaline does a real number on our bodies.

Keep standing up for people with compassion and love. We need more people like you in this world.

@benshawks08 oh yeah! They were all like my kids!

@benshawks08 Cool. The turnoff, of course, has never been the disagreeing part.

Remember, people are and should be considered enemies from a personal/family preservation standpoint. The inner city thug that wants to kill me is my enemy. The cop that is a murderous thug is my enemy. If you want to destroy America and overthrow the government -- enemy. If he wants to talk then it's different. But let's be clear. People are the ones that cause harm. People are who we defend against.

1. On Trump, I voted for him. Trump is disgusting to me. His policies are what I strongly support. But the man is repugnant. If I could have either Obama or Trump to my house for dinner, I'd go with Obama without thinking about it. Hillary was nearly as personally repugnant and worse because she was such a part of the system. My vote was defensive, as well, to oppose what I see from the left.

2. Trump is truly incapable of doing anything here. He is so hated by the left that no matter what he does, it's mocked. Anything. But I don't find him capable at all of being one that could unite. I do think Biden could do that. But I revert my defensive vote .. the more he embraces left, left, left, the less I can really even consider that. Where is Joe Lieberman when you need him, or John Kasich for that matter?

3. On point 7, if my area was high crime, out of control, I'm good with it. Further, if I travel to those areas (as I am tomorrow), I'd be good with being searched. I find it interesting that the left is very quick to ok the removal of personal liberties when there is a virus with a 3% death rate but won't consider it in war zones. To stop the bloodshed and violence, I'll sacrifice a bit to get that under control.

4. I'd moderate on the extra prison stuff. Perhaps that wasn't my best idea. I'm not a fan of hate crime stuff anyway. But .. my motivation is to protect those that are victimized. The six year old shot on his porch because his uncle angered a drug dealer.

5. Of course, being a single parent and an atheist does not make one bad. But the dynamic in the inner city is striking. Rahm Emanuel, who is very much "left" and was the mayor of Chicago for 8 years, said, near the end of his tenure -

“This may not be politically correct," he said, "but I know the power of what faith and family can do. … Our kids need that structure. … I am asking … that we also don’t shy away from a full discussion about the importance of family and faith helping to develop and nurture character, self-respect, a value system and a moral compass that allows kids to know good from bad and right from wrong.”

It is a critical element in the discussion and should not be ignored just because some folks are anti-religion and have find it threatening when the nuclear family is valued. We know the left hates that.

The Chicago Sun-Times noted the correctness of Emanuel's the message.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2018/8/10/18315582/rahm-emanuel-gave-right-message-on-violence-even-if-he-was-the-wrong-messenger ↗

But then there are those that don't want to discuss ALL of the issues. Countless articles. Interestingly, now, when you search, you can barely find anything reporting the comments. Rather, just the attacks. It's all about being a victim.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2018/8/8/18405768/emanuel-accused-of-victim-shaming-for-talking-values-and-character-after-crime ↗

An example of the anger - Shari Runner, former president and CEO of the Chicago Urban League, deemed the remarks insensitive. "I cannot see the victims of racist policies and bigoted practices shamed by anyone who says they need to do better or be better in their circumstance. I won’t accept it,” Runner said

This is a huge part of the problem. Victim. Victim. It's a mindset.

Part of the mindset is blaming guns. Anything BUT the individual.

Further, the left says you can't be a perpetrator if you are also a victim. It's what we see now. All the ridiculous fawning over the proteste ... er, rioters. It's the "in" thing for all public figures to have to comment on. And if you say something that doesn't fit the message, like Tiger Woods today, it's attack -- Woods said, correctly, that it makes no sense to burn your own neighborhoods. Can you imagine that?

But I'm sure he's not "black" enough -- at least according Biden, right? To the left, you "ain't black" if you don't fall in line with the left's message.

Also, Chicago is very much an interesting case study. I encourage everyone to spend time and review the volatility during Emmanuel's tenure. What you will find is constant complaining about over policing, under policing. About stopping crime. About harassment and brutality. I wasn't able to find it but there was one councilman that complained one time about too many police and then a year later about not enough police to stop the crime. It's really a sick comedy.

But it is encapsulated in the quote from the Ms. Runner above. The leftist inner city leadership takes zero responsibility, by and large. The quote is gold. They have been in charge. They claim things have gotten worse. Makes you think, if you want to think.

@Crimsonorblue22 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@BShark I have never heard that before. I hate violence! But I hate what happened to mr Floyd even more. I would've been arrested if I'd have been there. I couldn't stand there and watch that. That's murder.

Part of the tragedy of the killing of George Floyd is that the officers and bystanders all knew the same truth - there was nothing any of the bystanders could have done to intervene without putting themselves in harms way. They basically had no choice but to watch a man slowly suffocate to death, hoping (praying) that Derek Chauvin would have the humanity to let him breathe before the ultimate damage was done.

@justanotherfan you don't know me, lol, I still would have yelled! Called 911, something! All of that. I've never been arrested, but I probably would've been.

In case anyone thinks this shit is just an America thing

https://mobile.twitter.com/CleKino13/status/1267645253881823233 ↗

@BShark said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

In case anyone thinks this shit is just an America thing

https://mobile.twitter.com/CleKino13/status/1267645253881823233 ↗

Racism in the Balkans and former Soviet Block is still pretty bad with quite a few of those countries having had to play international soccer matches behind closed doors (empty stadiums) because of crowds doing/chanting racist stuff at black players. I know racism against Indians and Chinese is pretty bad in the Middle East. I'm guessing there's still a lot of racism against black people in South Africa considering Apartheid only ended less than 30 years ago there.

Easy solution to the cop problem. Designate areas by race and allow only cops of that race. So when your getting your ass kicked by a cop we can quickly eliminate racism as a motive and allow the media to change the focus and get rid of the bad cops quicker.

Like the link below... see I bet you never heard about. Why because both cop and suspect are the same race. Now investigate the situation without the world screaming RACISM!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8363357/Jackson-cop-leave-video-shows-hands-neck-suspect-breathe.html ↗

@BigBad Police brutality is not just a race problem but race is obviously a factor. Pretty sure segregation isn’t the answer. It’s been tried and failed.

Trying to get my head wrapped around this. Serious police oversight and reform is good. Is there an honest assessment of the makeup of the protesters somewhere? I've heard differing stories of who is doing the looting and who is inciting action vs peaceful protest.

Interesting video from a former longhorn: watch the whole thing for him to cover many of the questions and topics discussed above. (Sorry not your question @approxinfinity)

🐦 View Tweet?s=21

@approxinfinity I think you are hearing differing stories because different people are doing it everywhere. Are black people Peacefully protesting and occasionally rioting out of pure anger and frustration, yes. Are Some black people taking advantage of the chaos to loot, yep. Are other people of color doing all of the things listed above? Probably. For the same reasons? Likely? Are white people? Yes. For the same reasons? Sometimes. But their are also folks (predominantly white) who are looting, burning, commuting acts of violence, simply to discredit the peaceful protests and put people of color into further danger from police violence. It’s all of the above unfortunately which makes sorting it all out nearly impossible.

@HighEliteMajor said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

I hear folks all over saying there needs to be an "honest" conversation. I've tried that. I tried it here. But whenever the conversation gets uncomfortable, or it strays into territories that leftists see as off limits, the conversation ends.

Remember, police have to have a high presence in high crime areas or the good citizens will be the victims. If there is not high crime, then there is not a high police presence. That's how it works. When police see, day after day, black men committing horrible crimes, which is a fact in the inner city. It's an undeniable fact. The lesser of those cops take the brutality route. Day after day, the same thing.

Policing in high crime areas is not nice. Policing attracts man folks that are on power trips and that have violent tempers. The worst sort of personality one might think for the job. In some situations, their aggressiveness may save lives.

But it's why you have police brutality. Because you have many of the wrong personalities in police work. And they can't control themselves based on what they see day to day.

There are many pieces to this puzzle. One is that the inner city black culture, the same stuff I have railed against, has to change. That's one piece. And until there is some sort of moral foundation, that piece will never end.

A small sampling from Minneapolis, this one from the last September. And right, you see crap like this regularly.

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2019/09/16/20-arrested-18-charged-in-brutal-downtown-minneapolis-robberies/ ↗

Of course, my thread that pretty much devolved into anything but a discussion. There is no discussion when you challenge a leftist, even if the purpose and concern is to protect the lives and safety of the good inner city folks. It doesn't matter. You say "race", the leftist convulses.

Folks act in cultures. Many sub-cultures are grouped by race. This is one. The destructive inner city black culture.

But guess which else is one -- the cop culture. This is a huge issue that is part of the problem. But see the leftists will only acknowledge "culture" when it works for them. An important distinction when it comes to rationality.

Until the the self-inflicted issues are address in the inner city, all the money thrown that way won't do any good. The way people think and approach life is the only thing that keeps folks from killing and maiming.

/topic/9118

Here's a post I made in this topic when asked what I'd do in the inner city -

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@Kcmatt7 At the core, this starts with acknowledging the problem. That’s the impasse. Until the problem is ID’d and acknowledged, you can’t attack it. The fact is it is an inner city culture of violence. Changing culture takes a long time.

First identify “inner city safety zones.”

1. Public steps to involve the churches and faiths. Get people to church in these zones. The church is a huge factor in turning this around.

2. Public steps to encourage and foster marriage. Inner city safety zones that reward folks for marriage and self sufficiency. But more, public efforts to discuss and call out the “baby mama” culture. This is the real enemy. 75% single mother births among blacks. Worse among inner city blacks. Much higher than other races or cultures.

3. The president has to take the lead. I felt Obama missed an historic opportunity. Trump obviously can’t do it. We need another president to make this job one. The first domestic priority. The one where the most lives are lost/destroyed.

4. Have special inner city safety zone courts that expedite prosecutions, warrants, and labeling of threats.

5. We have hate crime legislation that leads to outrageous results. Use that logic. Huge sentences for crimes in inner city zones were the real violence is occurring. Drive by and shoot a little black child on a porch, life in prison regardless of whether there is a death. Wear a mask in a crime, 5 more years. Robbery, any kind, 40 years. Develop a ridiculously strict sentencing structure for inner city safety zones.

6. Inner city gang affiliation prosecuted as RICO crimes. Increase sentences for inner city safety zones. You go to jail for being in a criminal gang. Just for affiliation.

7. Stop and frisk permitted in inner city zones of all males. Horrible? Discriminatory? Yes on both counts. Too bad. Males are 95% of the problem.

8. If you have a felony conviction for anything violent, or you are an ID’d gang member by the safety zone courts, inner city zone warrants automatically issued for random searches of home and auto. Inner city courts can order drug treatment without a trial. 90 day commitments.

9. In inner city safety zones, curfews strictly enforced. Cars pulled over after 10:00. People off the streets. Only to and from work and a few other exceptions. Businesses close at 9:00.

10. Posting of army style officers that walk a beat in these areas. In pairs. No female cops in these areas. No male cops under 200 pounds. Much higher pay. Elite training. Federal involvement in supporting/training.

11. Air surveillance, like a war zone.

12. Massive use of food kitchens. Free meals in all inner city safety zones. No one starves. No one steals for food. Involvement of churches is a must.

13. Partnership program for schools with suburban districts. Vouchers (money) for “tuition” and transport. Partnership programs include working families so inner city kids can live with suburban families during the week and attend school there. Work with the suburban private schools too.

These are tax dollars I’m willing to pay.

Of course, this is all discriminatory. I want to discriminate IN FAVOR of protecting good inner city folks. I noticed that over 70% of Baltimore residents were in favor of police air surveillance while the ACLU says it’s discriminatory. That should tell everyone something. The majority of inner city folks aren’t part of the culture. They want safety, security, and the ability to succeed.

These thugs are the enemy. Try to change their hearts and minds, but attack the criminals is they won’t change. Culture change takes time.

This isn’t perfect. It’s a discussion point. I am just sickened by the violence and the loss of lives that no one values.

Just off the top of my head. I know, impossible. But you asked.

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I've also posted this before. I want a high quality police force. Pay officers $120,000 year or whatever is high for an area. Attract better people. It seems simple, but better people make better decisions. The "cop" mentality -- I'm the boss, I'm in control, I have power -- is a high contributor. The cop culture. Personally, I think non-cops should be in charge of cops. Folks that understand the law. Folks that aren't part of the culture.

To change certain elements of the police requires non-police to be in charge. And when the shroud of the cop culture is lifted, the many, many excellent officers will be able to change that culture.

I'm good with encouraging better behavior. It's abundantly clear from the data that if you graduate high school, get married, then have children (the order is important), the chances of you being in poverty are minuscule, like under 1%.

1. Absolutely unconstitutional.
2. Hate crime legislation is dumb, but frankly state and local governments don't have the resources to handle the huge increase in policing and warehousing of inmates. If we want a real world example, look at 3 strikes laws. Most of the evidence ↗ doesn't find much effect on crime. And the costs of enforcement are obviously sky high.
3. Re: stop and frisk, it did reduce crime but not to the extent ↗ most believe and costs are exorbitant.
4. Very unconstitutional.
5. Emergency powers are pretty limited outside narrow circumstances of an ongoing emergency, think like a hurricane. Courts would not look kindly on a permanent declaration, as we've seen from some of the COVID politics.
6. Militarization of police doesn't really reduce crime, just makes police more lethal ↗. Pass on that. Montana is a model in demilitarizing its police forces.
7. School choice is a good idea. Should be expanded.

So what would I do? There are a handful of low hanging fruit type things we can do to both reduce police violence and crime. And I'm trained public policy doctor (i.e. not the kind that helps people) so I can geek out on things we know worked. And I have receipts, as the youths would say.

1. End qualified immunity. It makes no sense to protect police from all but the worst criminal conduct. Effectively, you can only sue and win for getting killed, which seems not ideal.
2. Ban police unions. I wish we'd get rid of all public sector unions, but I'll start here. Unions have one purpose: to protect its members. For example, union contracts can wipe officer disciplinary records every 60 days (!), give officers access to video of incidents before they give a statement, and gives officers paid leave after a shooting. Just reprehensible stuff. Probably the best pape ↗r on this I've seen found the right to bargain led to a 40% (!) increase in violent police incidents.
3. End the Pentagon's program of transferring military equipment to local PD's. A pretty solid paper ↗ found 1033 transfers caused a 129% increase in civilian deaths in a given county. Police in our cities looking like paramilitary forces decreases trust, makes it more dangerous for both cops and citizens, and is generally a waste of money.
4. De-police some 911 calls. In a former life, I was part of an effort dispatch mental health first aid workers instead of or with police on calls that involved an obviously sick individual. I can't find the source (since it's Kansas, it's probably not electronic, woof) but something like 10% of calls involved dispatching a mental health worker. If we have pros who are used to dealing with the mentally ill, we drastically reduce the risk of a cop killing someone who's sick and needs treatment, not prison.
5. The federal government needs robust resources to conduct civil rights reviews on local PD's. Turns out, accountability works. !alt text ↗
6. Limit use of force police can lawfully take. Biggest few items are: use firearms as a last resort, ban chokeholds, and increase reporting of incidents (see #2). All these bans reduced ↗ police-involved killings by over 20%.
7. Screen applicants to police jobs by IQ. Yeah, IQ is controversial, which has always struck me as weird, but turns out we've done this and it worked. Like really well ↗. Nobody with an IQ below 95 should be eligible to become a police officer. Full stop.
8. And the final salvo, end the drug war. Seriously, by almost every metric it's been a complete and utter failure. The most prominent results are people like Pablo Escobar and the Mexican cartels. Just to put some more meat on these bones, we've really cracked down on cocaine and marijuana possession since the 70's, yet we're importing as much cocaine now as we did in the early 80's. Effectively, the War on Drugs has not stemmed the supply side of hard drugs here in the US. As a success story, Texas instituted drug courts to funnel people to treatment instead of jail and ended up closing about one prison per year over the last decade.

Tl;dr. We can do this by trusting individuals to do the right thing and repealing a bunch of bad laws. Change incentives and behavior changes. It's a Christmas miracle!

@FarmerJayhawk Those all sound like a good start.

I go back and forth on unions because as a teacher (and specifically as a special
Education teacher for 5 years) I’ve seen the good and bad of teacher unions. They provide a singular voice that can advocate for raises and structural changes that have made life better for teachers. At the same time, I’ve watched unions handcuff administrators from getting rid of objectively bad teachers.

With more and more money filtering up instead of trickling down, unions are essential to leveling the playing field but I agree the police unions are notoriously awful and a serious problem that needs to be dealt with.

Your list is about as good of list as I’ve seen and I appreciate you note they are “low hanging fruit” meaning there are larger systems changes need beyond those as well.

Well done.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk Those all sound like a good start.

I go back and forth on unions because as a teacher (and specifically as a special
Education teacher for 5 years) I’ve seen the good and bad of teacher unions. They provide a singular voice that can advocate for raises and structural changes that have made life better for teachers. At the same time, I’ve watched unions handcuff administrators from getting rid of objectively bad teachers.

With more and more money filtering up instead of trickling down, unions are essential to leveling the playing field but I agree the police unions are notoriously awful and a serious problem that needs to be dealt with.

Your list is about as good of list as I’ve seen and I appreciate you note they are “low hanging fruit” meaning there are larger systems changes need beyond those as well.

Well done.

Thank ya. My view is teachers’ unions are net negatives to kids (Caroline Hoxby has done great work on the topic). But police unions are an obvious negative. In general, I’m very uncomfortable with the notion of public servants striking against the neediest in society.

The one thing I didn’t get to because I don’t have my head wrapped around entirely yet is a rewrite of criminal codes. I think we have far too many laws and regulations on the books, which complicates the job of law enforcement beyond what is necessary or even good. That’s sort of the coup de gras I’m after in this whole shindig. My man Chris Arnade (if you haven’t read his boom Dignity, please do. It’s required for understanding real poverty) calls it libertarianism for the upper class, authoritarianism for the lower class. I want the forever for everyone!

Apparently, I am THE most naive, ignorant person on the face of the earth. I CANNOT believe that race is even a thing. I can't believe it. I'm not going to sit here and tell you I'm a saint. Most of you know that's BS and my family and friends will all attest to the fact that I am NOT. But I can tell you this for sure - I don't give a shit what color someone's skin is. What does that have to do with ANYTHING??? I talk to people on the phone all day long - most of them I've never met and probably never will meet. I don't know if they're short, tall, black, white, in a wheelchair, whatever. I like or dislike that person based on their personality. If I met them in person (and many I have) it doesn't change what I think of them. I have talked to guys that sound like Mr Rogers and look like one of the Duck Dynasty guys. I've met women that sounded like Marilyn Monroe and looked like Mama June (old style Mama June). It doesn't matter. I didn't say, "Well, shit - they don't meet my physical profile needs. I'm done with them." NO - I had already established that I liked them and their appearance doesn't change that.

What the hell, people? Try liking / trusting / helping someone first. THEN, if they screw you over - throw them under the bus. Preferably not literally. I just can't believe we call ourselves a civilized society and treat people like this.

@FarmerJayhawk I'm conflicted on unions. A couple of years ago, I failed a student because they were lazy and never did any work and the kid and their parents tried to get me fired claiming I was bullying and targeting the kid and filed a complaint against me with the school board after the school year ended. The lawyer the union provided me was able to prove this was a pattern of behavior by the parents, but because my district always kowtows to parents, our union is the only thing keeping a lot of teachers from undeservedly losing their jobs.

I would go with unions need to be reformed, but they are definitely still needed in a lot industries, including education.

@HighEliteMajor said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 Cool. The turnoff, of course, has never been the disagreeing part.

Remember, people are and should be considered enemies from a personal/family preservation standpoint. The inner city thug that wants to kill me is my enemy. The cop that is a murderous thug is my enemy. If you want to destroy America and overthrow the government -- enemy. If he wants to talk then it's different. But let's be clear. People are the ones that cause harm. People are who we defend against.

1. On Trump, I voted for him. Trump is disgusting to me. His policies are what I strongly support. But the man is repugnant. If I could have either Obama or Trump to my house for dinner, I'd go with Obama without thinking about it. Hillary was nearly as personally repugnant and worse because she was such a part of the system. My vote was defensive, as well, to oppose what I see from the left.

2. Trump is truly incapable of doing anything here. He is so hated by the left that no matter what he does, it's mocked. Anything. But I don't find him capable at all of being one that could unite. I do think Biden could do that. But I revert my defensive vote .. the more he embraces left, left, left, the less I can really even consider that. Where is Joe Lieberman when you need him, or John Kasich for that matter?

3. On point 7, if my area was high crime, out of control, I'm good with it. Further, if I travel to those areas (as I am tomorrow), I'd be good with being searched. I find it interesting that the left is very quick to ok the removal of personal liberties when there is a virus with a 3% death rate but won't consider it in war zones. To stop the bloodshed and violence, I'll sacrifice a bit to get that under control.

4. I'd moderate on the extra prison stuff. Perhaps that wasn't my best idea. I'm not a fan of hate crime stuff anyway. But .. my motivation is to protect those that are victimized. The six year old shot on his porch because his uncle angered a drug dealer.

5. Of course, being a single parent and an atheist does not make one bad. But the dynamic in the inner city is striking. Rahm Emanuel, who is very much "left" and was the mayor of Chicago for 8 years, said, near the end of his tenure -

“This may not be politically correct," he said, "but I know the power of what faith and family can do. … Our kids need that structure. … I am asking … that we also don’t shy away from a full discussion about the importance of family and faith helping to develop and nurture character, self-respect, a value system and a moral compass that allows kids to know good from bad and right from wrong.”

It is a critical element in the discussion and should not be ignored just because some folks are anti-religion and have find it threatening when the nuclear family is valued. We know the left hates that.

The Chicago Sun-Times noted the correctness of Emanuel's the message.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2018/8/10/18315582/rahm-emanuel-gave-right-message-on-violence-even-if-he-was-the-wrong-messenger ↗

But then there are those that don't want to discuss ALL of the issues. Countless articles. Interestingly, now, when you search, you can barely find anything reporting the comments. Rather, just the attacks. It's all about being a victim.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2018/8/8/18405768/emanuel-accused-of-victim-shaming-for-talking-values-and-character-after-crime ↗

An example of the anger - Shari Runner, former president and CEO of the Chicago Urban League, deemed the remarks insensitive. "I cannot see the victims of racist policies and bigoted practices shamed by anyone who says they need to do better or be better in their circumstance. I won’t accept it,” Runner said

This is a huge part of the problem. Victim. Victim. It's a mindset.

Part of the mindset is blaming guns. Anything BUT the individual.

Further, the left says you can't be a perpetrator if you are also a victim. It's what we see now. All the ridiculous fawning over the proteste ... er, rioters. It's the "in" thing for all public figures to have to comment on. And if you say something that doesn't fit the message, like Tiger Woods today, it's attack -- Woods said, correctly, that it makes no sense to burn your own neighborhoods. Can you imagine that?

But I'm sure he's not "black" enough -- at least according Biden, right? To the left, you "ain't black" if you don't fall in line with the left's message.

Also, Chicago is very much an interesting case study. I encourage everyone to spend time and review the volatility during Emmanuel's tenure. What you will find is constant complaining about over policing, under policing. About stopping crime. About harassment and brutality. I wasn't able to find it but there was one councilman that complained one time about too many police and then a year later about not enough police to stop the crime. It's really a sick comedy.

But it is encapsulated in the quote from the Ms. Runner above. The leftist inner city leadership takes zero responsibility, by and large. The quote is gold. They have been in charge. They claim things have gotten worse. Makes you think, if you want to think.

I just can’t disagree more about the enemy stuff. No one is going to want to talk if you show up armed to teeth with preconceived notions about them being the enemy. I fully believe that what you get from people is mostly a reflection of what you put out. And if all you can think is enemy enemy enemy, enemies you will have.

Help with the logic on Trump. You dislike him, find him Repugnant, would rather have obama over for dinner (?), and are positive he cannot fox what you yourself have claimed to be the biggest issue facing our nation and one that is life or death. But with all that said are still pretty sure you will vote for him over Biden (who you admit might be able to address the issue) because “the left.”

What could possibly be more dangerous than a vile repugnant man incapable of fostering unity being allowed to “lead” (because are you leading of a majority aren’t following) the country for four more years, knowing that he’s already been impeached and it would be virtually impossible to remove him for anything he might do. Remember this repugnance we are all witnessing is him trying to get re-elected. What does it look like when he no longer cares?

I believe you when you say you care about life and people. And I can generally see from your posts you are not stupid. So I just can’t understand this stance.

As for the church stuff, know my dad was a preacher and I grew up basically living in united Methodist churches. But the government cannot get involved in sponsoring religious activities. Do churches with an abundance from their affluent suburban flock need to do more outreach? Yes. These mega churches drive me crazy with the amount of tax free revenue they seem to only reinvest in their own blossoming communities (generally newer bigger buildings for themselves to use). But the government cannot and should not be advocating or sponsoring any religion as part of policy.

As for the less police, more police dynamic you speak of, the goal should be to reduce police presence AND increase services at the same time.

Victim hood is a dangerous mindset but I would argue oppression is more dangerous. Work to fix the inequity and then there are no victims. It always seems you are advocating for “personal responsibility” for those who are shouldering the heaviest burden and have the least power and control in society. I’m glad to see you agree the police officer in this most recent incident is responsible for murder. If he was willing to do that with a smirk on his face as people recorded him and three other officers helped, how much pain and suffering did those officers cause in that community when no one was looking. Who is responsible for that communities distrust of authority? Who is responsible for the anger bubbling over right now? It’s tough to take personal responsibility with a knee on your neck and four more on your back. That’s what I think Shari Runner’s quote is saying. And yeah, it’s gold.

Here is an org with a clear plan and actionable steps to enact change of anyone is interested. A lot of similarities to stuff posted by @FarmerJayhawk

https://www.joincampaignzero.org/ ↗

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Hmm... why would “enforcement officers” remove names and insignias?

For my Wichita people who might be worried about stuff going around online, make sure you know where your information is coming from.

https://www.businessinsider.com/white-nationalist-identity-evropa-twitter-antifa-looting-2020-6 ↗

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!alt text ↗

@BShark I already called my mayor today as Austin still has a LOT of work to do. Noticed Wichita currently is at 3 out of the 8 and Kansas City 0/8. We have our own case here locally that isn't as widely publicized. His name was Mike Ramos. I listened to his mother speak on a zoom general council meeting and it was heartbreaking.

The militarization of the police is an issue. There are police forces with tanks and armored vehicles. That doesn’t seem like the Jedi way of keeping peace. The more muscle you have, the more you want to flex and use it. Several incidents in history have shown, showing up to already bad situations with with more fire power only leads to more blood shed.

Some very fair criticism of some links I and others posted yesterday. Learning something new everyday is good!

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A thread MADE for this original post and topic. Please read the whole thing if you claim to be interested in FACTS and statistics.

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When people complain about the radical left while this kind of stuff is now considered center right...

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/texas-gop-official-claims-george-floyds-death-was-staged-to-hurt-trump-in-rant-about-mind-control-experiments/ ↗

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

When people complain about the radical left while this kind of stuff is now considered center right...

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/texas-gop-official-claims-george-floyds-death-was-staged-to-hurt-trump-in-rant-about-mind-control-experiments/ ↗

That's not center right, even here. The GOP here is disowning this Alex Jones wannabe.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

When people complain about the radical left while this kind of stuff is now considered center right...

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/texas-gop-official-claims-george-floyds-death-was-staged-to-hurt-trump-in-rant-about-mind-control-experiments/ ↗

Come on man, the first couple paragraphs have denunciations from Gov. Abbott and Rep. Roy (both very conservative). That's fringe, whack job stuff. Not center right at all.

The governor is literally calling for her resignation.

Perhaps the flippant tone wasn’t the best approach and obviously republicans are calling for her to resign as that is the title of the link.

But ask yourself, is Donald Trump more likely to retweet the conspiracy theory or the calls for her to resign?

I’ll remember in the future that chairs of the Republican Party don’t represent republican ideas. Sorry if I offended any “center right” folks.

I'm left and not offended I just think it was a bit of an exaggeration.

Frankly, I believe that all opinions are equally deserving of deep examination and discussion. Science is obviously a left-wing conspiracy designed to turn man against God, and fortunately anyone seeking knowledge has been persecuted since time immemorial. Our brains are only here to fill a vacant place in the skull.

On a happier note, Pat Robertson, James Matthis, and George Will have all come out severely critical of the Orange Man (sorry for the association, Syracuse, you should have a better name anyway). And it still has little effect on Rush, Sean, Pompousass, Dr. Jeanne Pinhead, or the Even More Deplorables. Sigh....

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

Perhaps the flippant tone wasn’t the best approach and obviously republicans are calling for her to resign as that is the title of the link.

But ask yourself, is Donald Trump more likely to retweet the conspiracy theory or the calls for her to resign?

I’ll remember in the future that chairs of the Republican Party don’t represent republican ideas. Sorry if I offended any “center right” folks.

Both parties have been moving further and further away from the middle ever since post 9/11. 20 years ago, people like AOC, Beto, Ted Cruz never would have been elected to the offices they were elected to or been close to being elected to because of how far left or right their views are. 20 years ago, Bernie Sanders would have been laugh out of the race had he tried running as a democrat

I wouldn't be too surprised to see a third party like the Libertarian Party start gaining major traction on a national level in the HoR or Senate in the next 20 years and unless both parties start moving back towards the middle.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

Perhaps the flippant tone wasn’t the best approach and obviously republicans are calling for her to resign as that is the title of the link.

But ask yourself, is Donald Trump more likely to retweet the conspiracy theory or the calls for her to resign?

I’ll remember in the future that chairs of the Republican Party don’t represent republican ideas. Sorry if I offended any “center right” folks.

Random county chairs generally don't represent the median or even mean view of Republicans. They tend to be a lot more radical. I'm just tired of "nut picking" where we hunt for the crazies on both sides and say they represent an entire movement.

@FarmerJayhawk Does highlight the importance of paying attention locally as well as nationally. That "nut picking" was kind of my point. It might just be that one person never really fully represents an entire movement and instead only represents themselves. Still, glad she's being held accountable where others with similar tendencies have not.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk Does highlight the importance of paying attention locally as well as nationally. That "nut picking" was kind of my point. It might just be that one person never really fully represents an entire movement and instead only represents themselves. Still, glad she's being held accountable where others with similar tendencies have not.

Just saying, nut picking is not a great idea from the left right now when “Defund the Police” is being sold as a legitimate policy option worthy of consideration.

@FarmerJayhawk ya the left goes from only cops should’ve have guns to we don’t need cops and back and forth a dozen times. @benshawks08 all I’ll say is come on man.

I guess a “group” is coming to hutch tmrw or sat. They’ve been traveling around. Some places are closing early or not even opening. Saw one place boarded up by genesis. A friend told me they are not peaceful and not hutch naacp sanctioned. Bad thing she said, locals r bringing guns to protect residences.

@Crimsonorblue22 someone is paying these guys to travel and loot.

@kjayhawks who r they?

Avoiding nut picking is impossible when 85% of the right wing R'pubs approve of the greatest nut of all.

@mayjay 98% if you ask him.

@FarmerJayhawk why is defunding the police a nutty policy option. It’s in no way equivalent to conspiracy cop killings to hurt trump. You yourself said they have too much military gear and overly police certain areas did you not? Is there significant proof that skyrocketing police budgets are reducing crime?

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@mayjay 98% if you ask him.

@FarmerJayhawk why is defunding the police a nutty policy option. It’s in no way equivalent to conspiracy cop killings to hurt trump. You yourself said they have too much military gear and overly police certain areas did you not? Is there significant proof that skyrocketing police budgets are reducing crime?

Defunding means to zero out the budget. That's bat guano insane.

@Crimsonorblue22 not sure to be honest but someone is trying tear this country apart. All the looters that were arrested in MN were outta state, some 15 hour drives away. Definitely something fishy going on. The average person can’t afford to just up and drive that far unless someone gives them money or in most cases it sounds like they are being bused in. In most the videos I’ve seen it’s white folks wearing Antifa shirts and what not. One video I saw appeared to have no construction in the area but a pallet of bricks sitting on the side of the road like someone just had them delivered. I trust no one as per usual, always something crazy in an election year.

@kjayhawks I’ve never said only cops should have guns. I’m actually in favor of less cops carrying guns and have been for a long time. I said my remark was snarky and a bad attempt at a light poke. Probably wasn’t the time or place. Again, sorry if I hurt your feelings. Was not my intention. I’m happy to be wrong and clearly the comment didn’t go over well. Now that summer has started and my partner is still working from home I’m getting a bit restless and a bit looser with what I decide to hit submit on moment to moment. If there is any other concession you’d like me to make or have any other demands, let me know. Happy to listen.

Maybe the common ground that we need to move forward in this is the fact we all agree that the police were in the wrong. I’ve seen not a single person of any race defend these guys. Police brutality is a problem, for several groups of people (ask most Motor cyclists in clubs). People will be quick to point out that more whites are killed by police each year and that’s true. But percentage wise the number for Minorities is higher based on how many more whites live in this country. Think of it as an endangered species of bird, we must work hard to ensure the survival of said species. But it doesn’t mean we are gonna go after all the others. Black lives matter is standing up to save the endangered, not downgrading the rest.

@benshawks08 I wasn’t meaning you directly, I just thought some the articles you shared were crap, that was the come on man lol. I’m not gonna argue tho, you are entitled to believe whatever someone posts or not. Like I tell everyone the internet is proven to be more fake than true. Anyone can write up anything and claim to know something they don’t. I refuse to back forth with people anymore, I’ll respect your opinion even if I disagree with it buddy.

@kjayhawks said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Crimsonorblue22 not sure to be honest but someone is trying tear this country apart. All the looters that were arrested in MN were outta state, some 15 hour drives away. Definitely something fishy going on. The average person can’t afford to just up and drive that far unless someone gives them money or in most cases it sounds like they are being bused in. In most the videos I’ve seen it’s white folks wearing Antifa shirts and what not. One video I saw appeared to have no construction in the area but a pallet of bricks sitting on the side of the road like someone just had them delivered. I trust no one as per usual, always something crazy in an election year.

If the video you saw is the one trump tweeted it was geotagged and debunked. Not that that’s the only video out there. The crazy rumors spreading around wichita was a confirmed white supremacist group pretending to be black lives matter. I’d be very surprised if there was some elaborate conspiracy to bring agitators to small town Kansas. More likely online trolls trying to rule up conservative white folks. (And yes those trolls could be left, right, center, or not even on the spectrum)

@kjayhawks which links were the big offenders for you. Seriously curious of your thoughts. Not trying to start anything.

@benshawks08 I’m not sure, I don’t personally follow any politicians on social media. That’s why I say it could anyone paying these people. Could the Democrats trying to find a way to win in November or George Soros. I’d logically say it’s less likely to be a white supremacy group or one that wants Trump to be in for four more years. What they are doing doesn’t help that cause. Could be the government wanting martial law. We may never know the truth.

@kjayhawks To me white supremacists make the most since because of people believe the protests are violent they can more easily be discounted. And there are several confirmed cases of that happening. But agree there is plenty more going on we don’t know or understand. Some folks seem mighty pumped to have troops in the streets which is just bizarre to me.

@kjayhawks said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

Maybe the common ground that we need to move forward in this is the fact we all agree that the police were in the wrong. I’ve seen not a single person of any race defend these guys. Police brutality is a problem, for several groups of people (ask most Motor cyclists in clubs). People will be quick to point out that more whites are killed by police each year and that’s true. But percentage wise the number for Minorities is higher based on how many more whites live in this country. Think of it as an endangered species of bird, we must work hard to ensure the survival of said species. But it doesn’t mean we are gonna go after all the others. Black lives matter is standing up to save the endangered, not downgrading the rest.

Preach!

@benshawks08 I just don’t like the random twitter ones of people sharing what they heard or assume. As we are taking about seeing both Antifa and you seeing white supremacy groups. All we can do is speculate, no one knows for sure. That’s why I said it could be anyone.

@kjayhawks I think some are from wichita. I've seen videos of cops dumping bricks off, breaking windows of store fronts and vandalizing their own cars. Have u seen the one today of them shoving an old man to the grown and knocking him out? 75 yr old. Was awful. Hard for me to stick up for some of those guys. I'm not saying that about hutch cops. So many I see on tv have their names and numbers covered. Got me scared!

@kjayhawks hmm... not sure when I shared random twitter people sharing what they heard about antifa or WS... the link I shared on that topic was business insider and had comments from twitter spokesperson. Is that not legit?

I did post “random twitter posts” of folks critiquing the 8 cant wait policies I And bshark had shared earlier. Those weren’t so much about the validity of information in them but the validity of the criticisms of that movement which I initially endorsed.

Again, the comment about radical left v center right was in jest and agreeably possibly out of line.

What would you guys think if your nfl team took a knee this season?

@Crimsonorblue22 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

What would you guys think if your nfl team took a knee this season?

Fine by me. They're private citizens and can protest however they choose.

https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/how-facebook-misinformation-turned-a-white-supremacist-conspiracy-into-police-action ↗

What about this one? Seems like a pretty well coordinated scam traced back to one group. Am I missing where this info isn’t legit? Again busloads of “antifa” are not driving state to state...

@FarmerJayhawk would you kneel w/them?

@Crimsonorblue22 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk would you kneel w/them?

Probably not. I prefer to engage in other ways. To me, protest is a deeply personal thing and I can do so in more effective ways. But that’s a personal judgment and I support citizens’ First Amendment rights.

Most people I know would come unglued. But then again, they don't understand. They might quit watching, even those that love the chiefs. I get it, if I was a teammate, I'd stand w/them.

@Crimsonorblue22 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@kjayhawks I think some are from wichita. I've seen videos of cops dumping bricks off, breaking windows of store fronts and vandalizing their own cars. Have u seen the one today of them shoving an old man to the grown and knocking him out? 75 yr old. Was awful. Hard for me to stick up for some of those guys. I'm not saying that about hutch cops. So many I see on tv have their names and numbers covered. Got me scared!

The video with the 75 year old is hard to watch for so many reasons. I think it points out how policing causes good people to lose their humanity. One of the officers after the man falls starts to bend down to check on him but is immediately redirected by what has to be his superior. After that 10-15 more cops just walk by a human body clearly in distress.

I want believe that most of these officers joined because they want to help people and help their community (Even when things I have heard from my brother who is a police officer cause me to doubt that belief). Instead they are now part of a system that forces them to ignore their most human instincts to bend down and check on a bleeding old man just can’t be good for their psyche. Sooooooo much change is needed.

Cops kneeling at same place w protesters where that 75 year old was knocked down to try to acknowledge it wasn't right.

! ↗

@approxinfinity I thought that was before they knocked that guy down. Lots of info swirling around.

@BShark Oh? I may be misinformed.

@approxinfinity said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@BShark Oh? I may be misinformed.

That’s not a hard thing to be at the moment.

Yeah my bro-in-law shared with me, just told me it was opposite order. You are correct.

I was hoping for a silver lining :(

Yeah no worries, it's tough to suss things out right now.

There's a reason ancient tales of warriors dedicate thousands of words to the hero donning his armor. It's part of every epic battle movie these days. Changing your physical appearance and preparing for battle changes your mental state. I don't think those officers kneeling were insincere, but you put them in full riot gear, marching in lines and suddenly even a 75 year old man can look like a threat. Go to a gun range and ask every person there how holding a gun makes them feel and a majority of the time they will say "powerful." It's a rush. But that adrenaline while heightening your senses and quickening your heart rate is not helping you make rational, empathetic decisions. I know folks talk about individual responsibility but that fails to recognize the systemic issues influencing those individuals actions.

🐦 View Tweet

police open fire on a car in Denver.

https://electrek.co/2018/01/18/lapd-bmw-i3-fleet-barely-used/ ↗

Is it nut picking if the nuts find me?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.texastribune.org/2020/06/04/texas-greg-abbott-bexar-GOP-conspiracy/amp/ ↗

How many till this becomes an actual problem? Serious question? I know one wacko doesn’t represent the rest. Remember, these are ideas these folks felt comfortable sharing in public! What do they say in private? How many agree that are smart enough not to share on Facebook?

And yes I see republican leadership speaking out against it as they should and yes I know they don’t represent everyone in the Republican Party. But am I wrong there seems to be an issue here? Again, happy to be wrong.

Again, the right doesn’t have a monopoly on this. 🐦 View Tweet?s=21

@FarmerJayhawk And tell me again how that is close to the same as racist conspiracy theories?

And does he work directly for the Democratic Party? Can’t seem to find that he does. I may be wrong.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk And tell me again how that is close to the same as racist conspiracy theories?

And does he work directly for the Democratic Party? Can’t seem to find that he does. I may be wrong.

Ilhan Omar is calling for abolishing the Minneapolis PD and she’s a member of Congress. I think calling for a policy that will get thousands of people murdered is much worse than a few crackpots on the right saying some dumb stuff.

@benshawks08 Both parties have their lunatics at the grassroots level that neither party supports at higher levels which is why a lot of those people never get beyond very low level local government.

@Crimsonorblue22 did anything happen in hutch?

@FarmerJayhawk Your telling me this viewpoint is as hateful and dangerous as racist conspiracy theories? Your example is trying to reimagine the way we look at the world with peace and love while the one I shared is spreading and sowing hate. You are free to believe what you want obviously but I know which I find more dangerous and appalling.

https://time.com/5848705/disband-and-replace-minneapolis-police/ ↗

Is it a radical point of view? Sure. Is it hateful and evil?

@Texas-Hawk-10 Wackos everywhere. No disagreement there. Just Interesting that the most racist wackos all seem to be Working for the Republican Party.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk Your telling me this viewpoint is as hateful and dangerous as racist conspiracy theories? Your example is trying to reimagine the way we look at the world with peace and love while the one I shared is spreading and sowing hate. You are free to believe what you want obviously but I know which I find more dangerous and appalling.

https://time.com/5848705/disband-and-replace-minneapolis-police/ ↗

Dangerous, absolutely. A city without police will be a war zone. I’m all for police reform, but getting rid of it entirely is madness. And who will be harmed most? The poor and those unable to look out for themselves. The rich in gated communities can hire private security and protect themselves. But the small business owner living downtown? Who does she call if someone breaks in and robs her store? A social worker? You’ll have people taking law enforcement into their own hands, which has always worked so well, like in the Ahmed Aubrey shooting. So yes, I’m anti-getting people killed with dumb policy. I’m also anti-crackpot GOP volunteers.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 Wackos everywhere. No disagreement there. Just Interesting that the most racist wackos all seem to be Working for the Republican Party.

How familiar are you with the history of southern Republicans prior to about 50 years or so ago?

@kjayhawks no, post phoned till tmrw, think 11 til 11. A lil hot. Lots of places closed all day or early, some boarded up. I don't have fb. Seems weird and eerie to me. I was walking my dog late last pm and an old pick up went by, pretty slow and I scared myself! Imagination went crazy. I live in a nice neighborhood and know most everybody. Lol I was thinking BTK. Ha ha!

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 Wackos everywhere. No disagreement there. Just Interesting that the most racist wackos all seem to be Working for the Republican Party.

Also, don't pretend that Democrats have never done anything racist themselves. Trying to frame this as Republican vs. Democrat does nothing to help either side. Historically, Southerners who now tend to vote Republican have been more open about their racism as a culture. Northerners have historically been much more subtle in their racism which can be seen through policies such as redlining and gerrymandering.

Both parties have blood on their hands as far as racism in this country goes.

@Texas-Hawk-10 how familiar are you with “the southern strategy”?

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 how familiar are you with “the southern strategy”?

I'm quite familiar with white southern politicians going from Democrat to Dixiecrat to Republican within a generation?

Which enemy is more dangerous, the one who tells you they're you're enemy, or the one who claims to be you ally, but doesn't do much to actually help you out and has done plenty to hurt the people the claim to want to help?

Which party made the "Tough on Crime" bill that's since led to significant increases in incarcerations of minorities? Interesting factoid, the current presumptive favorite for the Democrat nomination co-authored that bill passed by the Clinton administration and both chambers of Congress which were controlled by Democrats at the time before Republicans took control of both chambers during the midterm elections that year.

Let's not pretend that the Democrats are innocent when it comes to racism even in modern times.

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 Wackos everywhere. No disagreement there. Just Interesting that the most racist wackos all seem to be Working for the Republican Party.

Also, don't pretend that Democrats have never done anything racist themselves. Trying to frame this as Republican vs. Democrat does nothing to help either side. Historically, Southerners who now tend to vote Republican have been more open about their racism as a culture. Northerners have historically been much more subtle in their racism which can be seen through policies such as redlining and gerrymandering.

Both parties have blood on their hands as far as racism in this country goes.

I agree the entire system is founded on racist policy. But to compare some on the left proposing radical policies to current Republican officials spreading racist conspiracies is a false equivalence and only works to excuse the behavior as “oh well, crazies be crazy” I’ve never said there aren’t wackos on both sides but do take issue with folks both sidesing where a majority of the Unapologetic racists sit politically RIGHT NOW!

Donald trump has purposely courted and emboldened disgusting scum for the last 4 years and only now are some republicans finally starting to examine what that has done to the party.

And, yes I Understand that most democrats prop up racist policies as well because white supremacy is deeply embedded in so many of the laws of this country including the ones you mentioned.

The north retreated from reconstruction policy as the kkk grew and spread around the south. As social Darwinism became a popular philosophy whites of all political persuasions began to believe maybe blacks were at the bottom because that’s where they are supposed to be. That’s the system folks are still fighting against to this day so forgive me for at least listening to people who think maybe the best idea for a clearly broken part of that system is to try something else completely. Black people didn’t even count as people when this system was formed so maybe reforms of that system aren’t enough.

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 how familiar are you with “the southern strategy”?

I'm quite familiar with white southern politicians going from Democrat to Dixiecrat to Republican within a generation?

Which enemy is more dangerous, the one who tells you they're you're enemy, or the one who claims to be you ally, but doesn't do much to actually help you out and has done plenty to hurt the people the claim to want to help?

Which party made the "Tough on Crime" bill that's since led to significant increases in incarcerations of minorities? Interesting factoid, the current presumptive favorite for the Democrat nomination co-authored that bill passed by the Clinton administration and both chambers of Congress which were controlled by Democrats at the time before Republicans took control of both chambers during the midterm elections that year.

Let's not pretend that the Democrats are innocent when it comes to racism even in modern times.

This is why for me Biden was the absolute worst choice for democratic nominee. I didn’t vote for him but I have to now because emboldened, unapologetic racists murdering people is currently among my top priorities. I’m continuing to work to reshape the Democratic Party as well. Wrote a letter and participated in city council meetings this week.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 how familiar are you with “the southern strategy”?

I'm quite familiar with white southern politicians going from Democrat to Dixiecrat to Republican within a generation?

Which enemy is more dangerous, the one who tells you they're you're enemy, or the one who claims to be you ally, but doesn't do much to actually help you out and has done plenty to hurt the people the claim to want to help?

Which party made the "Tough on Crime" bill that's since led to significant increases in incarcerations of minorities? Interesting factoid, the current presumptive favorite for the Democrat nomination co-authored that bill passed by the Clinton administration and both chambers of Congress which were controlled by Democrats at the time before Republicans took control of both chambers during the midterm elections that year.

Let's not pretend that the Democrats are innocent when it comes to racism even in modern times.

This is why for me Biden was the absolute worst choice for democratic nominee. I didn’t vote for him but I have to now because emboldened, unapologetic racists murdering people is currently among my top priorities. I’m continuing to work to reshape the Democratic Party as well. Wrote a letter and participated in city council meetings this week.

So you're voting for the lesser of two evils then? That's the mentality that has allowed this system to operate unchecked for 230ish years. Find a third party that matches up with your ideals and start supporting them. It won't matter in November at the national level because no third party has enough support to steal any electoral votes, but can make a difference at the local level which is going to have a much larger impact on day to day lives and be the level that makes real change happen at.

@Crimsonorblue22 be careful and don’t go out if you don’t have too. They’re plenty of good people marching for a cause but others are set on destruction.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I don’t give a crap about party at the local level because there I can support who ever fits with my ideals. But at the national and state level my goal has been to get rid of trump at just about all costs and vote out Cornyn and Cruz for their unwavering support for him (on top of their policies I couldn’t disagree with more). I Give my support to anyone I find who fits my ideals but won’t waste my vote when i at least agree with more of one party’s stance when compared to the other. Is Biden a perfect candidate, far from it. Is he better than trump? It’s not even close.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 Wackos everywhere. No disagreement there. Just Interesting that the most racist wackos all seem to be Working for the Republican Party.

Also, don't pretend that Democrats have never done anything racist themselves. Trying to frame this as Republican vs. Democrat does nothing to help either side. Historically, Southerners who now tend to vote Republican have been more open about their racism as a culture. Northerners have historically been much more subtle in their racism which can be seen through policies such as redlining and gerrymandering.

Both parties have blood on their hands as far as racism in this country goes.

I agree the entire system is founded on racist policy. But to compare some on the left proposing radical policies to current Republican officials spreading racist conspiracies is a false equivalence and only works to excuse the behavior as “oh well, crazies be crazy” I’ve never said there aren’t wackos on both sides but do take issue with folks both sidesing where a majority of the Unapologetic racists sit politically RIGHT NOW!

Donald trump has purposely courted and emboldened disgusting scum for the last 4 years and only now are some republicans finally starting to examine what that has done to the party.

And, yes I Understand that most democrats prop up racist policies as well because white supremacy is deeply embedded in so many of the laws of this country including the ones you mentioned.

The north retreated from reconstruction policy as the kkk grew and spread around the south. As social Darwinism became a popular philosophy whites of all political persuasions began to believe maybe blacks were at the bottom because that’s where they are supposed to be. That’s the system folks are still fighting against to this day so forgive me for at least listening to people who think maybe the best idea for a clearly broken part of that system is to try something else completely. Black people didn’t even count as people when this system was formed so maybe reforms of that system aren’t enough.

It’s the height of privilege to tell the majority (92%!!) of black people they’re dead wrong to support either maintaining or increasing the their local police forces and decide that The Almighty White Saviors will just abolish the police and everything will he hunky dory, regardless of the black community’s opinion.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 Wackos everywhere. No disagreement there. Just Interesting that the most racist wackos all seem to be Working for the Republican Party.

Also, don't pretend that Democrats have never done anything racist themselves. Trying to frame this as Republican vs. Democrat does nothing to help either side. Historically, Southerners who now tend to vote Republican have been more open about their racism as a culture. Northerners have historically been much more subtle in their racism which can be seen through policies such as redlining and gerrymandering.

Both parties have blood on their hands as far as racism in this country goes.

I agree the entire system is founded on racist policy. But to compare some on the left proposing radical policies to current Republican officials spreading racist conspiracies is a false equivalence and only works to excuse the behavior as “oh well, crazies be crazy” I’ve never said there aren’t wackos on both sides but do take issue with folks both sidesing where a majority of the Unapologetic racists sit politically RIGHT NOW!

Donald trump has purposely courted and emboldened disgusting scum for the last 4 years and only now are some republicans finally starting to examine what that has done to the party.

And, yes I Understand that most democrats prop up racist policies as well because white supremacy is deeply embedded in so many of the laws of this country including the ones you mentioned.

The north retreated from reconstruction policy as the kkk grew and spread around the south. As social Darwinism became a popular philosophy whites of all political persuasions began to believe maybe blacks were at the bottom because that’s where they are supposed to be. That’s the system folks are still fighting against to this day so forgive me for at least listening to people who think maybe the best idea for a clearly broken part of that system is to try something else completely. Black people didn’t even count as people when this system was formed so maybe reforms of that system aren’t enough.

As a history major, I have to correct your statements about Reconstruction because they just aren't accurate. That's the textbook version. Bottom line is the northern soldiers (a big % of whom were black) went to the South to support to Freedman's Bureau help educate black people and get black men registered to vote. Guess what happens? Black people start getting elected to local, state, and national level offices because there more black people men than white men in the South after the Civil War and of course this scares the hell out of southern whites because they were losing power and control. How do they respond? With the KKK and start murdering black people by the thousands. In 1871, Grant passes the KKK Act which is the only time in US history that the right to habeas corpus is suspended during "peace time". It also allows Grant to use the US military to fight the KKK which he does. While the US military is fighting a war against the KKK, white southerners enact another strategy that ultimately changes the course of US history. They begin overstuffing ballot boxes every election at every level to get fairly elected black people out of office and replace them with their own people. Politicians all across the south who support reconstruction are being murdered by the KKK and several states enact martial law in certain counties/parishes where the violence is at its worst. South Carolina, of course, and Louisiana, specifically the New Orleans area are the two most impacted with North Carolina and Georgia not far behind. There was one election in South Carolina where 101% of eligible voters cast ballots. This strategy culminated in the 1876 presidential election where electoral college representatives flat out refused to acknowledge the actual results and those it was left to Congress to decide the election. The US military and KKK are still actively fighting while all of that is going on to keep in mind. Congress comes up with the Compromise of 1877 in which the Radical Republicans essentially sold their souls to Satan to get Rutherford B. Hayes the presidency by agreeing to withdraw all troops from the South and return to business as usual which introduce southern blacks to Jim Crow.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 I don’t give a crap about party at the local level because there I can support who ever fits with my ideals. But at the national and state level my goal has been to get rid of trump at just about all costs and vote out Cornyn and Cruz for their unwavering support for him (on top of their policies I couldn’t disagree with more). I Give my support to anyone I find who fits my ideals but won’t waste my vote when i at least agree with more of one party’s stance when compared to the other. Is Biden a perfect candidate, far from it. Is he better than trump? It’s not even close.

Again, voting for the lesser of two evils is the bullshit mindset that got Trump elected in 2016 since he was viewed by a lot of people as the lesser of two evils between himself and Hilary.

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 I don’t give a crap about party at the local level because there I can support who ever fits with my ideals. But at the national and state level my goal has been to get rid of trump at just about all costs and vote out Cornyn and Cruz for their unwavering support for him (on top of their policies I couldn’t disagree with more). I Give my support to anyone I find who fits my ideals but won’t waste my vote when i at least agree with more of one party’s stance when compared to the other. Is Biden a perfect candidate, far from it. Is he better than trump? It’s not even close.

Again, voting for the lesser of two evils is the bullshit mindset that got Trump elected in 2016 since he was viewed by a lot of people as the lesser of two evils between himself and Hilary.

Gary2016

@FarmerJayhawk said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 I don’t give a crap about party at the local level because there I can support who ever fits with my ideals. But at the national and state level my goal has been to get rid of trump at just about all costs and vote out Cornyn and Cruz for their unwavering support for him (on top of their policies I couldn’t disagree with more). I Give my support to anyone I find who fits my ideals but won’t waste my vote when i at least agree with more of one party’s stance when compared to the other. Is Biden a perfect candidate, far from it. Is he better than trump? It’s not even close.

Again, voting for the lesser of two evils is the bullshit mindset that got Trump elected in 2016 since he was viewed by a lot of people as the lesser of two evils between himself and Hilary.

Gary2016

Gary Johnson was my vote as well in 2016. Need to go do my homework on their potential candidates this year in next few weeks.

@kjayhawks I'm far from town. Thx!

@kjayhawks did you know Mac was have a peaceful protest tmrw? On hutch post.

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 I don’t give a crap about party at the local level because there I can support who ever fits with my ideals. But at the national and state level my goal has been to get rid of trump at just about all costs and vote out Cornyn and Cruz for their unwavering support for him (on top of their policies I couldn’t disagree with more). I Give my support to anyone I find who fits my ideals but won’t waste my vote when i at least agree with more of one party’s stance when compared to the other. Is Biden a perfect candidate, far from it. Is he better than trump? It’s not even close.

Again, voting for the lesser of two evils is the bullshit mindset that got Trump elected in 2016 since he was viewed by a lot of people as the lesser of two evils between himself and Hilary.

Gary2016

Gary Johnson was my vote as well in 2016. Need to go do my homework on their potential candidates this year in next few weeks.

Jo Jorgensen is the LP nominee this year. Pretty uninspiring, honestly. I was pretty excited for Amash until his about face.

@Crimsonorblue22 I heard the same, will be interesting

@kjayhawks https://www.ksn.com/news/hutch-pd-concerned-about-safety-ask-organizers-to-cancel-demonstration-planned-for-saturday/ ↗

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 Wackos everywhere. No disagreement there. Just Interesting that the most racist wackos all seem to be Working for the Republican Party.

Also, don't pretend that Democrats have never done anything racist themselves. Trying to frame this as Republican vs. Democrat does nothing to help either side. Historically, Southerners who now tend to vote Republican have been more open about their racism as a culture. Northerners have historically been much more subtle in their racism which can be seen through policies such as redlining and gerrymandering.

Both parties have blood on their hands as far as racism in this country goes.

I agree the entire system is founded on racist policy. But to compare some on the left proposing radical policies to current Republican officials spreading racist conspiracies is a false equivalence and only works to excuse the behavior as “oh well, crazies be crazy” I’ve never said there aren’t wackos on both sides but do take issue with folks both sidesing where a majority of the Unapologetic racists sit politically RIGHT NOW!

Donald trump has purposely courted and emboldened disgusting scum for the last 4 years and only now are some republicans finally starting to examine what that has done to the party.

And, yes I Understand that most democrats prop up racist policies as well because white supremacy is deeply embedded in so many of the laws of this country including the ones you mentioned.

The north retreated from reconstruction policy as the kkk grew and spread around the south. As social Darwinism became a popular philosophy whites of all political persuasions began to believe maybe blacks were at the bottom because that’s where they are supposed to be. That’s the system folks are still fighting against to this day so forgive me for at least listening to people who think maybe the best idea for a clearly broken part of that system is to try something else completely. Black people didn’t even count as people when this system was formed so maybe reforms of that system aren’t enough.

As a history major, I have to correct your statements about Reconstruction because they just aren't accurate. That's the textbook version. Bottom line is the northern soldiers (a big % of whom were black) went to the South to support to Freedman's Bureau help educate black people and get black men registered to vote. Guess what happens? Black people start getting elected to local, state, and national level offices because there more black people men than white men in the South after the Civil War and of course this scares the hell out of southern whites because they were losing power and control. How do they respond? With the KKK and start murdering black people by the thousands. In 1871, Grant passes the KKK Act which is the only time in US history that the right to habeas corpus is suspended during "peace time". It also allows Grant to use the US military to fight the KKK which he does. While the US military is fighting a war against the KKK, white southerners enact another strategy that ultimately changes the course of US history. They begin overstuffing ballot boxes every election at every level to get fairly elected black people out of office and replace them with their own people. Politicians all across the south who support reconstruction are being murdered by the KKK and several states enact martial law in certain counties/parishes where the violence is at its worst. South Carolina, of course, and Louisiana, specifically the New Orleans area are the two most impacted with North Carolina and Georgia not far behind. There was one election in South Carolina where 101% of eligible voters cast ballots. This strategy culminated in the 1876 presidential election where electoral college representatives flat out refused to acknowledge the actual results and those it was left to Congress to decide the election. The US military and KKK are still actively fighting while all of that is going on to keep in mind. Congress comes up with the Compromise of 1877 in which the Radical Republicans essentially sold their souls to Satan to get Rutherford B. Hayes the presidency by agreeing to withdraw all troops from the South and return to business as usual which introduce southern blacks to Jim Crow.

Yes that is a more detailed and accurate version of what I said. Agreeing with you that the north basically gave in to the south to allow blacks to become second class citizens. Withdrew all Troops vs retreat is pretty much the same thing. Thanks for the full picture.

@FarmerJayhawk said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 Wackos everywhere. No disagreement there. Just Interesting that the most racist wackos all seem to be Working for the Republican Party.

Also, don't pretend that Democrats have never done anything racist themselves. Trying to frame this as Republican vs. Democrat does nothing to help either side. Historically, Southerners who now tend to vote Republican have been more open about their racism as a culture. Northerners have historically been much more subtle in their racism which can be seen through policies such as redlining and gerrymandering.

Both parties have blood on their hands as far as racism in this country goes.

I agree the entire system is founded on racist policy. But to compare some on the left proposing radical policies to current Republican officials spreading racist conspiracies is a false equivalence and only works to excuse the behavior as “oh well, crazies be crazy” I’ve never said there aren’t wackos on both sides but do take issue with folks both sidesing where a majority of the Unapologetic racists sit politically RIGHT NOW!

Donald trump has purposely courted and emboldened disgusting scum for the last 4 years and only now are some republicans finally starting to examine what that has done to the party.

And, yes I Understand that most democrats prop up racist policies as well because white supremacy is deeply embedded in so many of the laws of this country including the ones you mentioned.

The north retreated from reconstruction policy as the kkk grew and spread around the south. As social Darwinism became a popular philosophy whites of all political persuasions began to believe maybe blacks were at the bottom because that’s where they are supposed to be. That’s the system folks are still fighting against to this day so forgive me for at least listening to people who think maybe the best idea for a clearly broken part of that system is to try something else completely. Black people didn’t even count as people when this system was formed so maybe reforms of that system aren’t enough.

It’s the height of privilege to tell the majority (92%!!) of black people they’re dead wrong to support either maintaining or increasing the their local police forces and decide that The Almighty White Saviors will just abolish the police and everything will he hunky dory, regardless of the black community’s opinion.

Never told anyone they were wrong. Just that I was willing to listen and I think racists are worse than optimists. When and where is that 92% Number from? Never even said if I agreed with abolish the police but ok. And yes as a white man I am the height of privileged. Just try not to pretend I’m. It like some folks. I don’t know the answers. I personally won’t solve systemic racism or police brutality. But I will continue to learn all I can.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 Wackos everywhere. No disagreement there. Just Interesting that the most racist wackos all seem to be Working for the Republican Party.

Also, don't pretend that Democrats have never done anything racist themselves. Trying to frame this as Republican vs. Democrat does nothing to help either side. Historically, Southerners who now tend to vote Republican have been more open about their racism as a culture. Northerners have historically been much more subtle in their racism which can be seen through policies such as redlining and gerrymandering.

Both parties have blood on their hands as far as racism in this country goes.

I agree the entire system is founded on racist policy. But to compare some on the left proposing radical policies to current Republican officials spreading racist conspiracies is a false equivalence and only works to excuse the behavior as “oh well, crazies be crazy” I’ve never said there aren’t wackos on both sides but do take issue with folks both sidesing where a majority of the Unapologetic racists sit politically RIGHT NOW!

Donald trump has purposely courted and emboldened disgusting scum for the last 4 years and only now are some republicans finally starting to examine what that has done to the party.

And, yes I Understand that most democrats prop up racist policies as well because white supremacy is deeply embedded in so many of the laws of this country including the ones you mentioned.

The north retreated from reconstruction policy as the kkk grew and spread around the south. As social Darwinism became a popular philosophy whites of all political persuasions began to believe maybe blacks were at the bottom because that’s where they are supposed to be. That’s the system folks are still fighting against to this day so forgive me for at least listening to people who think maybe the best idea for a clearly broken part of that system is to try something else completely. Black people didn’t even count as people when this system was formed so maybe reforms of that system aren’t enough.

It’s the height of privilege to tell the majority (92%!!) of black people they’re dead wrong to support either maintaining or increasing the their local police forces and decide that The Almighty White Saviors will just abolish the police and everything will he hunky dory, regardless of the black community’s opinion.

Never told anyone they were wrong. Just that I was willing to listen and I think racists are worse than optimists. When and where is that 92% Number from? Never even said if I agreed with abolish the police but ok. And yes as a white man I am the height of privileged. Just try not to pretend I’m. It like some folks. I don’t know the answers. I personally won’t solve systemic racism or police brutality. But I will continue to learn all I can.

This poll here https://news.gallup.com/poll/184511/blacks-divided-whether-police-treat-minorities-fairly.aspx ↗

It does seem there’s a big divide in what a lot of white liberals want (fewer police, not Biden) and most black folks, who tend to be more conservative, especially on culture issues. Not sure what that is (maybe just pragmatism?) but certainly an interesting trend in our politics.

@FarmerJayhawk I’d be interested to see result from a similar poll conducted in the last year or so instead of 5 years ago.

I’ve only just started to learn about the abolish police/prison idea so I’m in no way an expert. But the more I read about it (whether I agree or not I am still working through) it’s clear to me it is not close to the same level of “crackpot” idea as the Soros paying cops to murder black people then paying black people to riot conspiracies. That was my main point of contention. I was having myself a day yesterday and perhaps didn’t explain my point of view clearly enough and maybe got a bit fired up in my general crankiness.

You seem like an academic who likes to read and learn so I’d encourage you to at least understand more of what the movement is advocating for before rejecting it completely. Never hurts to learn more about why massive numbers of people are protesting in every single state.

Teen vogue of all places has a couple good intro articles if you’re interested. If not, obviously that’s your perogative.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk I’d be interested to see result from a similar poll conducted in the last year or so instead of 5 years ago.

I’ve only just started to learn about the abolish police/prison idea so I’m in no way an expert. But the more I read about it (whether I agree or not I am still working through) it’s clear to me it is not close to the same level of “crackpot” idea as the Soros paying cops to murder black people then paying black people to riot conspiracies. That was my main point of contention. I was having myself a day yesterday and perhaps didn’t explain my point of view clearly enough and maybe got a bit fired up in my general crankiness.

You seem like an academic who likes to read and learn so I’d encourage you to at least understand more of what the movement is advocating for before rejecting it completely. Never hurts to learn more about why massive numbers of people are protesting in every single state.

Teen vogue of all places has a couple good intro articles if you’re interested. If not, obviously that’s your perogative.

I found a similar poll (not the identical question so it's not a great comparison) that found only about 1/3 of black adults favored cutting funding to their police department. https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/s23agrrx47/20200531_yahoo_race_and_justice_crosstabs.pdf ↗

I'll take another look at it for sure. I did take on the absolutely masochistic task of reading White Fragility, Foucalt's postmodernism, and How to Be an Antiracist so I'm getting where they're coming from, but the philosophical foundation seems incredibly shaky. I'm open to reducing the amount of police if we can maintain public safety, but the details of actually pulling it off will be very difficult to work through. For example, one of the biggest expenditures in police forces is pension obligations to retired officers. In some states (notably California) it's unconstitutional to touch those pensions. There's a lot of unanswered questions and not a lot of policy detail out there, hence my severe skepticism.

More reading on the topic. Found this interesting and definitely raises some questions for me.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/06/03/457251670/how-much-do-we-need-the-police ↗

@FarmerJayhawk said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk I’d be interested to see result from a similar poll conducted in the last year or so instead of 5 years ago.

I’ve only just started to learn about the abolish police/prison idea so I’m in no way an expert. But the more I read about it (whether I agree or not I am still working through) it’s clear to me it is not close to the same level of “crackpot” idea as the Soros paying cops to murder black people then paying black people to riot conspiracies. That was my main point of contention. I was having myself a day yesterday and perhaps didn’t explain my point of view clearly enough and maybe got a bit fired up in my general crankiness.

You seem like an academic who likes to read and learn so I’d encourage you to at least understand more of what the movement is advocating for before rejecting it completely. Never hurts to learn more about why massive numbers of people are protesting in every single state.

Teen vogue of all places has a couple good intro articles if you’re interested. If not, obviously that’s your perogative.

I found a similar poll (not the identical question so it's not a great comparison) that found only about 1/3 of black adults favored cutting funding to their police department. https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/s23agrrx47/20200531_yahoo_race_and_justice_crosstabs.pdf ↗

I'll take another look at it for sure. I did take on the absolutely masochistic task of reading White Fragility, Foucalt's postmodernism, and How to Be an Antiracist so I'm getting where they're coming from, but the philosophical foundation seems incredibly shaky. I'm open to reducing the amount of police if we can maintain public safety, but the details of actually pulling it off will be very difficult to work through. For example, one of the biggest expenditures in police forces is pension obligations to retired officers. In some states (notably California) it's unconstitutional to touch those pensions. There's a lot of unanswered questions and not a lot of policy detail out there, hence my severe skepticism.

A LOT of good data in that survey. And while you say 1/3 support cutting funding only a third oppose cutting funding as well so it’s not like it’s a clear cut issue.

The rest of that policing data though. Man there are some stark differences in the way police are viewed/received by white and black people. The saddest and most telling to me was 5% of black people feeling safer in the presence of police. What an absolute failure of policing that is.

Minneapolis City Council has apparently voted to dismantle the Minneapolis PD with a big enough majority that it cannot be vetoed. https://theappeal.org/minneapolis-city-council-members-announce-intent-to-disband-the-police-department-invest-in-proven-community-led-public-safety/ ↗

I'm sure the debates about this nationally will will be calm and respectful, lol!

@Texas-Hawk-10 wow, never act surprised what idiots will do once given power. The Democratic Party claims to love BLM but have done little to improve conditions in the inner cities. Most of these police brutality case are in democrat led states, cities and majority counsel leaders.

@kjayhawks That’s literally what Minneapolis is now doing. Redirecting the massive amount of funding currently going to further militarize the police into community based programs. And it won’t happen overnight nor will it be without bumps and missteps.

I'm not sure the council knows what they're doing. At all. From their statement, "We recognize that we don't have all the answers about what a police-free future looks like, but our community does," they said, reading off a prepared statement. "We're committed to engaging with every willing community member in the City of Minneapolis over the next year to identify what safety looks like for you." The phrase police-free should scare the bejeezus out of everyone.
https://www.startribune.com/mpls-council-majority-backs-dismantling-police-department/571088302/ ↗

@benshawks08 defunding militarization is a good step. Disbanding the entire police department is quite possibly the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard of. Call your support team when someone is breaking into your house or when your being assaulted lmao. They could’ve defunded and put money towards a more diverse police force, and proper training. Police training or lack there of is an issue. So having some random neighborhood watch guy with little to zero training is better?? Stuff like what happened down in Georgia to that kid trespassing will become the norm. People will take the law into their own hands. Several things could’ve been done logically, guess it’s back to the old west...

@kjayhawks I’d encourage you to read more about what the defund the police movement is really asking for. Currently, police respond to way too many types of emergencies. Someone struggling with mental health, police. Today APD tweeted that they responded to a hand gliding crash. Surely that should have been EMS. Why would that situation need someone with a gun and a license to use force? Most burglaries/assaults and crimes in general aren’t interrupted by the police but instead investigated by them after the fact. And the clearance rates of those cases is laughable. You obviously don’t have to agree with disbanding the police but it would help if before you dismiss the idea you take a look at where it comes from.

Also, jogging while black is not trespassing. But good to know where you stand on that.

Another interesting interview on the topic of you are interested in learning:

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/05/871083599/the-history-of-police-in-creating-social-order-in-the-u-s ↗

And some data to process:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/us-police-floyd-protests-country-comparisons-intl/index.html ↗

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@kjayhawks I’d encourage you to read more about what the defund the police movement is really asking for. Currently, police respond to way too many types of emergencies. Someone struggling with mental health, police. Today APD tweeted that they responded to a hand gliding crash. Surely that should have been EMS. Why would that situation need someone with a gun and a license to use force? Most burglaries/assaults and crimes in general aren’t interrupted by the police but instead investigated by them after the fact. And the clearance rates of those cases is laughable. You obviously don’t have to agree with disbanding the police but it would help if before you dismiss the idea you take a look at where it comes from.

Also, jogging while black is not trespassing. But good to know where you stand on that.

Why would police respond to a hang gliding accident is because they do have first aid and basic medical training that can help stabilize a victim while paramedics/EMS make their way to a scene. Because police are out patrolling an area, they are usually closer to scenes like that than paramedics are. They can also radio to dispatchers if there are any special needs or circumstances the paramedics need to prepare for, if fire and rescue is needed with jaws of life and stuff like that.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Right. I get that. I’m saying that job could instead be done by someone without a gun, without license to use force against citizens.

@benshawks08 You just completely missed the point. If a police officer, regardless if they're armed or not, has the basic medical training to help in a situation like that, FYI they do, why would they not be the first ones on scene if they are closer than anyone else to give help?

Your position is delaying medical care to someone who needs it and could needlessly result in a person's death when they could've been helped by someone going into the situation knows it's a medical issue that can assist until better trained professionals can take over.

@benshawks08 said:

...jogging while black is not trespassing. But good to know where you stand on that.

C'mon, don't start looking for gotchas when you guys are arguing means while trying to attain common goals. The background of that Georgia incident involved reports of trespassing and burglary in the house being built, and videos are online that appear to show murder victim on site on prior days. But no one here said he deserved it because of trespassing. The concern raised was how vigilantes, if no police exist, would react to even simple trespass by going nuclear as happened to that poor guy.

@Texas-Hawk-10 You are also completely missing the point. Defunding the police means reimagining the way our society works so that just maybe the person closest and most ready to handle a medical emergency is NOT an armed law enforcement officer.

The city council literally said they were eliminating police, not just tweaking some things. Unless police-free doesn’t actually mean police-free, like defund the police doesn’t actually mean defund the police?Nobody has ever tried that. Even the poster child for the movement, Camden, NJ, hired most of the same officers back after rebuilding their force.

Here’s what could happen: crime rates fall because people stop reporting crime because why report if there aren’t police to investigate? I guess the rich people with really great insurance can get PI’s?

@FarmerJayhawk They also said they will be replacing it with an alternative model for public safety. Wholly re imagining a system to keep people safe is not the same as abandoning safety.

Here's what else could happen (because since it's never been tried, you have absolutely NO IDEA):

Crime rates could fall as community and education programs lift people up and remove the primary motivation for crime, poverty.

People from the poorest and most marginal groups in our society begin to develop a level of trust in a system that wasn't built to oppress them.

Homelessness will finally have enough funding to seriously address the issue (also reducing crime).

Here is what is already happening: People in certain communities aren't reporting crime because they fear reporting to the police will only make the problem worse or nothing will be done about it anyway. Rich people have private security and hire private investigators because they know police clearance rates are crap.

And if you are paying attention the "the movement," Camden, NJ, is not their poster child for the very reason you say.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 You are also completely missing the point. Defunding the police means reimagining the way our society works so that just maybe the person closest and most ready to handle a medical emergency is NOT an armed law enforcement officer.

I'm not missing that point, I just don't respect it because the plan is to defund without a plan in place to replace police is dumb. Considering who the representative of Minneapolis is and what her political beliefs are (socialist/communist leaning), I have even less respect for what she's probably going to end up trying to propose because I strongly disagree with her political beliefs and how law enforcement looks in countries with those political systems.

Fixing 350 years of legalized racism in this country isn't an overnight fix which is what many are demanding and it's not realistic and any solutions that made by strictly partisan groups will have zero chance at long term success because the other side will ways be resentful and trying to prove that solution won't work. Just look at Obamacare, it was crafted pretty much exclusively by the left with little to no input from politicians on the right. What happened when the right gained control of Congress? They started working to dismantle Obamacare because they largely had no input on it when it was created.

The only way to create lasting and permanent change in law enforcement is to get political leaders from both parties, law enforcement leaders from different parts of the country, and leaders from black communities together and talking to one another to come up with solutions that will have a lasting impact on the issue of law enforcement. What Minneapolis is trying to do will end up being an absolute failure.

@Texas-Hawk-10 So you refuse to even consider the plan because you don't like one person who represents the area and have rejected "what she's probably going to end up trying to propose" before she even proposes it. Yep, that's definitely the best way to get people from both parties and leaders from different communities talking.

You also have no idea that what they are doing will be an absolute failure because as @FarmerJayhawk said, it's never been tried. And nothing is happening overnight and to suggest it is is simply ignorant of what is happening. They voted to work towards the goal of disbanding the police department. All police officers haven't been fired today.

🐦 View Tweet?s=21

@benshawks08 I believe the idea of any community suddenly deciding to devote funds to a wholesale approach to community support (catch-all phrase), while revamping police depts, is a dream only. Every antitax nut will use defunding police as a way of advancing extremist no-government and will insist on taxes being cut instead of devoting funds to alternate uses.

The most immediate result, I fear, is one that the people seeking it have not contemplated and will abhor: I predict the single greatest explosion in private gun ownership in our nation's history.

Defunding might work in gun-free societies. That is not the US.

@benshawks08 The Minneapolis City Council's own words on the matter are they don't have a plan in place on how replace Minneapolis PD. They also said that the reforms put in place 2 years ago aren't changing things fast enough for their liking. No fcking sht on that one!!! You don't fix decades worth of issues in two years. People have to be trained on new procedures, that takes time. New policies have to be given time measure their effectiveness with those who have been trained in those policies. They listened to people who are being emotional and not rational about a situation and made a decision that's not based in logic, they made an emotional based decision without a plan in place to address the issues their decision will cause.

I have two personal stories of why what the Minneapolis City Council is doing is going to end up an absolute sh*tshow for them. The first one is the old principal at my school. A big percentage of students at the school I work come from one of the roughest neighborhoods in Houston (Greenpoint, aka Gunspoint for anyone familiar with Houston) so these are kids that don't get much discipline at home and are usually major behavior issues at school. So this principal was desperate to get these kids behavior under control because we were one of the top scoring schools in the district prior to the rezoning that brought Greenpoint kids to my school. Our principal tried a bunch of different programs to help with discipline, but when there weren't immediate results, she would abandon that idea to try something else. Nothing she did had any meaningful effect because she didn't give anything time to work before declaring it a failure. Before she was principal, and before I got there, it was common that my school might have less than 5 openings a year (mostly retirements and upward promotions), there were actually some years where there were no openings. The year I got hired, there was about a 60% turnover in the staff all because of how bad a leader the principal was because she never either didn't have a plan for something or didn't give a plan enough time to determine it's effectiveness. The only reason I'm still at the school is so I can finish up my 5th year at a Title 1 school and get the rest of my student loans forgiven. If it wasn't for that, I would've been gone after year 1 or 2 due to terrible leadership.

I see the same thing happening in Minneapolis. There were tangible and measurable steps taken to reform their police department to address issues, but we're not given a chance to be successful and are being abandoned without a plan going forward that they're going to basically be coming up with on the fly. That's a recipe for disaster for Minneapolis and they will probably become the poster child city for how not to handle police reform.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

🐦 View Tweet?s=21

All that tweet says to me is how much education in this country has been devalued over the years by both parties.

@benshawks08 the young man that was gunned down in Georgia was caught on the people that shot him cameras for trespassing several times and identified by his mother. Which doesn’t dismiss them murdering him but a far cry from the mainstream media report of him just being hunted while jogging. People don’t go running in cargo shorts man common on. I refuse to comment further, good day sir.

@Texas-Hawk-10 So how much time is enough time for Black people to live in fear of the police? How long should they shoulder a disproportionate weight of bad policies that negatively impact the community?

I too have worked at a school under bad leadership and all seen good leadership but your post about your situation shows how far we all still have to go. If you are trying to get somewhere, do you take 4 small steps and then measure how far you are from your goal now?

It hurts me to see your willingness to classify a neighborhood in need as “gunspoint” and then resent them “coming to [your] school.”

And to address the ACLU tweet, you agree education has been long ignored and underfunded by both parties. Where do you think that funding has gone? What is one group both democratic and republican mayors and council groups continually add funding for? Hmm... Of only such a group existed.

@kjayhawks I have seen many people jogging in cargo pants and cargo shorts, particularly people of color.

And if you read the testimony at the hearing last week you will see that the 3 assailants literally chased him while he was running, bumping him with a truck and finally cornering him. There is no adequate word for it other than hunting.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk They also said they will be replacing it with an alternative model for public safety. Wholly re imagining a system to keep people safe is not the same as abandoning safety.

Here's what else could happen (because since it's never been tried, you have absolutely NO IDEA):

Crime rates could fall as community and education programs lift people up and remove the primary motivation for crime, poverty.

People from the poorest and most marginal groups in our society begin to develop a level of trust in a system that wasn't built to oppress them.

Homelessness will finally have enough funding to seriously address the issue (also reducing crime).

Here is what is already happening: People in certain communities aren't reporting crime because they fear reporting to the police will only make the problem worse or nothing will be done about it anyway. Rich people have private security and hire private investigators because they know police clearance rates are crap.

And if you are paying attention the "the movement," Camden, NJ, is not their poster child for the very reason you say.

So I guess we're putting people who commit violent felonies in detention? If a white kid rapes a girl, do we send him to therapy? There are so many unanswered questions that they have zero clue how to think through or come up with a coherent answer. We'll never solve poverty entirely either. Without sufficient state capacity to enforce contracts, there's little incentive to follow them, which will very much exacerbate issues of poverty that already exist.

Let's just look at this from a game theory perspective. Effectively, you've created an incentive for crime. Without the ability to effectively enforce the law, you'll have bad actors decide crime is a more attractive path. In GT parlance, you've made the payoff to crime higher than it otherwise would've been. No officer to bust you for drugs? Might as well sell on the busiest street corners. Nobody to respond to a break-in? Becomes more attractive to break into that Apple store for a Mac upgrade. Or: Apple hires private security at night and goes off half-cocked and kills a dumb kid for breaking in because well-trained police weren't available. The multitude of things that could go VERY bad here are staggering.

A well-respected black leader in St. Louis texted me last night and asked, "dude what the f*** are they doing? This is craziness." And look, I'll be thrilled if it works. Really. But the thought of a "police-free" city absolutely terrifies me.

"Analysis: Why the call to defund police is music to Trump's ears"

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/politics/defund-the-police-blm/index.html ↗

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 So how much time is enough time for Black people to live in fear of the police? How long should they shoulder a disproportionate weight of bad policies that negatively impact the community?

I too have worked at a school under bad leadership and all seen good leadership but your post about your situation shows how far we all still have to go. If you are trying to get somewhere, do you take 4 small steps and then measure how far you are from your goal now?

It hurts me to see your willingness to classify a neighborhood in need as “gunspoint” and then resent them “coming to [your] school.”

And to address the ACLU tweet, you agree education has been long ignored and underfunded by both parties. Where do you think that funding has gone? What is one group both democratic and republican mayors and council groups continually add funding for? Hmm... Of only such a group existed.

So how much time is enough time for Black people to live in fear of the police? How long should they shoulder a disproportionate weight of bad policies that negatively impact the community?

Not the same question that I addressed. The change itself needed to happen much more recently than 2 years ago, but since there's no time machine to go back and address that issue, you have to start addressing them today. Minneapolis City Council's own statement suggests those changes didn't begin until 2 years ago when new policies and procedures were put into place. 2 years is nowhere near enough time to determine if those changes have had any meaningful positive effect. Instead, the city council decided to nuke everything and did so without a plan moving forward. That's bad leadership.

I too have worked at a school under bad leadership and all seen good leadership but your post about your situation shows how far we all still have to go. If you are trying to get somewhere, do you take 4 small steps and then measure how far you are from your goal now?

Yes, you take those small steps forward, evaluate what's working and what still needs to be improved on and keep moving forward. You don't backtrack just because you don't go from a standstill to full on spring immediately.

It hurts me to see your willingness to classify a neighborhood in need as “gunspoint” and then resent them “coming to [your] school.”

I don't resent those kids being zoned to my school. They were zoned to our school despite 3 other schools in the district being closer to that neighborhood because we were one of the top performer schools in the district and they were their previous school was the lowest performing. My issue was with the principal who end up being completely unprepared for that change in demographics and didn't do her homework and then didn't give any plans the leadership team at my school came up with enough time to work.

And to address the ACLU tweet, you agree education has been long ignored and underfunded by both parties. Where do you think that funding has gone? What is one group both democratic and republican mayors and council groups continually add funding for? Hmm... Of only such a group existed.

Considering that funding for education and police come from two different levels of government, that fact kind of ruins the story you're trying to create. School districts are funded at the state level while police departments are typically funded at the local level of government. The decrease in funding of public education isn't going where you're trying to imply it's going.

Properly fixing these systemic issues will never happen as quickly as anybody wants them to happen. That's the first thing people need to realize. Second thing is that these issues weren't created overnight and therefore will not be solved overnight either. You don't fix 350 years of legalized racism in 50 years. This issue is a marathon, not a sprint. Leaders from different groups with differing ideas need to come together to have discussions about applicable solutions that are achievable. The reason you have to have representatives from all sides involved because it gives ownership to all parties involved and gives them incentive to make these changes happen.

What's happening in Minneapolis and other places that are calling to defund police is that cry is pretty much only coming from one side, the far left. Even most moderates on the left are against this idea of defunding police departments. All that's going to come from what the Minneapolis City Council is doing is resentment and resistance from the right and moderate left because the city council is giving them little reason to want to see a new plan succeed because they no input into the new ideas.

They're doing exactly to the right what has been happening to the black community for generations and that's silencing their voices. Most BLM supporters aren't anti-white, they just want their voices heard and respected as well along with white people. We know what silencing an influential groups voice does because we're seeing it right now with these protests and riots and the left trying to silence the voice of the right isn't going to end well for anyone in Minneapolis.

@mayjay the point went light years over your head. No people don’t typically don’t go jogging in cargo shorts, to say otherwise is a lie. The point was the mainstream media portrayed as random rednecks hunting random minorities. Did they hunt him down? Sure they did but it wasn’t a random deal. They took the law into their own hands and should be punished accordingly.

@kjayhawks said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

the point went light years over your head. No people don’t typically don’t go jogging in cargo shorts, to say otherwise is a lie

Maybe you need to live in a different place. Incidentally, I wasn't lying but I can see why I only now remembered why discussing something with you is difficult. Disagree or different experiences=stupid or lying.

@FarmerJayhawk said;

So I guess we're putting people who commit violent felonies in detention? If a white kid rapes a girl, do we send him to therapy? There are so many unanswered questions that they have zero clue how to think through or come up with a coherent answer.

Let's start with how the current system handles "a white kid rapes a girl."

What happens first? Well a majority of the time absolutely nothing as most rapes go unreported. But let's say she goes to hospital to get help and is even able to identify the culprit (most people are raped by people they already know). It is still unlikely that she will press charges because as she reports it to the police she will be told, "most of these cases come down to he said, she said so there really won't be much of a case." So she goes home and faces the arduous task of dealing with just about the most traumatic injury that can happen to a person knowing nothing will happen to the person she sees regularly. She will be forced to make drastic changes to her normal routine and likely lose many friends and people who support her because they won't believe her especially because she didn't press charges.

In this scenario, sending a white kid to therapy would be a win for me. You?

Now, what if she doesn't know who committed the rape and does want to press charges. Clearance rates for these cases is horrendously low and likely her rape kit will be stuck in a giant line of rape kits that have yet to be evaluated. And all the stuff that happened to the girl in the first scenario still happens and now she also adds the fear of knowing her rapist (whom she can't identify) is still out and about without anyone addressing the issue.

So that is from her perspective.

Now let's look at it from the rapist's perspective. White kid rapes girl, nothing happens. What incentive or motivations are there for him to not do it again. In the current system, he raped a girl knowing that if caught he would go to prison (though not for as long as his black friend if he were caught doing the same thing). Knowing that he'd be labeled a sex offender for the rest of his life. But for him that didn't happen the first time (because it rarely does). What does that do to the fear of punishment (remember that originally wasn't enough to prevent him from raping in the first place)? Is he now more afraid or less? Is he more likely, or less to rape again?

Even if he is caught, if he is charged and if he is found guilty (three pretty big ifs if you've been paying any attention to the goings on in America), his rate of recidivism is still very high and he is likely to rape again within his lifetime.

Unfortunately, as has been proven over and over again, punishment is not the best way to shape human behavior. Our entire system is built on a false pretense. You may want revenge, and seeing someone punished might make you feel better, but it doesn't change behavior.

This is without even getting into the ridiculous race disparities in these punishments. And just to throw this out there, for every 9 people put to death by the state for crimes committed, 1 is set free due to new evidence proving their innocence or demonstrable evidence that justice and rule of law was not upheld during their original conviction.

Next let's take this one: "Nobody to respond to a break-in? Becomes more attractive to break into that Apple store for a Mac upgrade. Or: Apple hires private security at night and goes off half-cocked and kills a dumb kid for breaking in because well-trained police weren’t available."

A. Trained cops kill dumb kids for breaking in at a higher rate in this country than any other comparable democracy.

B. Apple, the mall, and everyone else who can afford it, already hire private security at night, during the day, when they are open and when they are closed.

THIS is the system you are upholding and claiming there is no alternative to. I think we can do better and it would be immoral not to at least try.

@benshawks08 Now you're deviating away from police into the court system which is a separate issue that needs work and that's quite frankly a much simpler fix than the law enforcement issue. Judges at that level are usually either elected or appointed positions which means politics interfering with the justice system. Two things fix that issue quite easily. Judges are appointed based on merit because it's not their job to interpret laws at that level, that's for higher levels to decide after appeals are made. Second thing is term limits for judges. Judges get 5 years on the bench then they return to their legal practice.

@Texas-Hawk-10 It’s all part of the same criminal justice system. I was just addressing the situation @FarmerJayhawk brought up?

I agree judges are yet another piece of that system needed major overhauls. I like term limits. What does “appointing on merit” look like?

Also, (note this is highly in jest and not meant to offend) what happened to no easy fixes?

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I’m sure some reforms will change this mentality....

@mayjay I’m not trying to insult you buddy but logically cargo shorts don’t seem to fit the mold for jogging and I’ve literally never seen anyone jogging in them. Maybe it’s a northern thing but in Kansas or Georgia with the humidity you had best have a ton of gold bond power down there or it ain’t gonna feel too good lol.

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There are so many of these we just don’t know about. I’d never heard of this until just now and I live very close to Williamson county. It was filmed by a documentary crew...

The reason for the stop: failure to dim lights to oncoming traffic.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk said;

So I guess we're putting people who commit violent felonies in detention? If a white kid rapes a girl, do we send him to therapy? There are so many unanswered questions that they have zero clue how to think through or come up with a coherent answer.

Let's start with how the current system handles "a white kid rapes a girl."

What happens first? Well a majority of the time absolutely nothing as most rapes go unreported. But let's say she goes to hospital to get help and is even able to identify the culprit (most people are raped by people they already know). It is still unlikely that she will press charges because as she reports it to the police she will be told, "most of these cases come down to he said, she said so there really won't be much of a case." So she goes home and faces the arduous task of dealing with just about the most traumatic injury that can happen to a person knowing nothing will happen to the person she sees regularly. She will be forced to make drastic changes to her normal routine and likely lose many friends and people who support her because they won't believe her especially because she didn't press charges.

In this scenario, sending a white kid to therapy would be a win for me. You?

Now, what if she doesn't know who committed the rape and does want to press charges. Clearance rates for these cases is horrendously low and likely her rape kit will be stuck in a giant line of rape kits that have yet to be evaluated. And all the stuff that happened to the girl in the first scenario still happens and now she also adds the fear of knowing her rapist (whom she can't identify) is still out and about without anyone addressing the issue.

So that is from her perspective.

Now let's look at it from the rapist's perspective. White kid rapes girl, nothing happens. What incentive or motivations are there for him to not do it again. In the current system, he raped a girl knowing that if caught he would go to prison (though not for as long as his black friend if he were caught doing the same thing). Knowing that he'd be labeled a sex offender for the rest of his life. But for him that didn't happen the first time (because it rarely does). What does that do to the fear of punishment (remember that originally wasn't enough to prevent him from raping in the first place)? Is he now more afraid or less? Is he more likely, or less to rape again?

Even if he is caught, if he is charged and if he is found guilty (three pretty big ifs if you've been paying any attention to the goings on in America), his rate of recidivism is still very high and he is likely to rape again within his lifetime.

Unfortunately, as has been proven over and over again, punishment is not the best way to shape human behavior. Our entire system is built on a false pretense. You may want revenge, and seeing someone punished might make you feel better, but it doesn't change behavior.

This is without even getting into the ridiculous race disparities in these punishments. And just to throw this out there, for every 9 people put to death by the state for crimes committed, 1 is set free due to new evidence proving their innocence or demonstrable evidence that justice and rule of law was not upheld during their original conviction.

Next let's take this one: "Nobody to respond to a break-in? Becomes more attractive to break into that Apple store for a Mac upgrade. Or: Apple hires private security at night and goes off half-cocked and kills a dumb kid for breaking in because well-trained police weren’t available."

A. Trained cops kill dumb kids for breaking in at a higher rate in this country than any other comparable democracy.

B. Apple, the mall, and everyone else who can afford it, already hire private security at night, during the day, when they are open and when they are closed.

THIS is the system you are upholding and claiming there is no alternative to. I think we can do better and it would be immoral not to at least try.

So in that first scenario, who A) arrests the guy and B ) ensures he sticks to the program and C) what penalties are there and how do we enforce them if not? Being incarcerated is a pretty big incentive to not assault anyone again. That's most of the reason we do it. With child predators, we incarcerate then warehouse them if deemed a continual threat to society. We can more easily mandate things like therapy when the dude is locked up. And again, if he does reoffend, who then takes him into custody? Like a violent felon is just going to be like "yeah, ok, you got me" to a non-police officer who isn't armed?

Yes, and I've made suggestions on training police. Eliminating them doesn't change the calculus there. Does your small mom and pop shop have to hire private security as well if they get robbed during the day? Go all vigilante and smoke the robber with a 12 gauge? Who investigates that crime? Do we just take every victim's word for it? Do prosecutors have to contract out all investigations? Do we just have a team of unarmed investigators without the police power to enforce subpoenas? That seems pretty legally dodgy and shortsighted.

I oppose the death penalty, but believe some level of force is required to deal with violent crime. It's unsavory and gross, but I really don't see the alternative (and frankly, nobody else does either at their own admission.)

@kjayhawks I agree it doesn't seem logical, but think of how many people you might have seen wearing sweats on summer runs. And actually I am in SC!

Is five years long enough?

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More reading if you are tired of hearing about it from me and are looking for a more knowledgeable and practiced writer:

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/police-brutality-cop-free-world-protest-199465/ ↗

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@Texas-Hawk-10 It’s all part of the same criminal justice system. I was just addressing the situation @FarmerJayhawk brought up?

I agree judges are yet another piece of that system needed major overhauls. I like term limits. What does “appointing on merit” look like?

Also, (note this is highly in jest and not meant to offend) what happened to no easy fixes?

Different aspects of the criminal justice system. Law enforcement generally deals with 4th and 5th amendment aspects of due process and the court system deals with the 6th and 8th amendments. Different areas of the system require different fixes.

To your last point, I never said anything about easy fixes. I said they wouldn't happen overnight which is not the same thing.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

Is five years long enough?

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That post gives zero context to those numbers so they're not usable to support any position because it doesn't break the numbers down by race/gender/jurisdiction of any other way to make a determination about anything. Did a city like St. Louis or Baltimore see a decrease in that 5 years because of changes made in the wake their incidents while another city saw an increase for some other reason? Those numbers are useless without context.

5 years is a good time frame to evaluate how effective reforms have been. Evaluate what's worked, what hasn't worked, what just needs slight tweaking to become effective and make appropriate changes to keep moving forward.

@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

Is five years long enough?

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In short, this evidence is not causal at all and is subject to all sorts of interpretations. How well did individual officers adhere to new guidelines? Were there sanctions if officers didn't follow the rules? Did the unions gain power during that time? We have 1000 possible confounds that make a causal interpretation impossible since we only have really two variables: policymakers saying new guidelines exist, and police shootings. We know nothing else about either variable from this tweet.

This is basically where my mind is at: https://reason.com/1969/11/01/the-cops-heroes-or-villains/ ↗ . We need a retaliatory force to correct acts of coercion criminals impose on victims. For example, if someone stole something of yours, there should be justice. This justice could be in terms of utility, the criminal steals my car, he goes to jail for as long as it takes for me to get a new one (in terms of utility). Or could be retribution, we as a society decide how long a car thief should be deprived of freedom for said act. If we attribute those same guidelines to cops (use coercion initiating violence) the officer should be held accountable. We expect our police (and courts) to act as the corrective force, that is to even the field between victim and perpetrator. Like it's not a coercive act to take my car back from a car thief since it wasn't the thief's right to take my car. You can only be coerced if you had the right to the thing in the first place (like me and my car.)

I’m a little confused how canceling shows like cops and live PD are helping this cause. I don’t watch much tv but I enjoy those shows. If we continue to treat all cops as if they are bad and continue to cut funding, it will only make matters worse. Less training hours and low pay won’t fix anything. I read they are considering canceling Paw Patrol for having good cops, yes teaching all children cops are evil will pay dividends smh. There is little common sense or logic these days.....

@kjayhawks wow, that's dumb.

@kjayhawks

That's just crazy, especially the Paw Patrol part. My 3 year old son is obsessed with the show and the toys..

@kjayhawks Like most things that create such reactions by Ted Cruz and company, the Paw Patrol cancellation is manufactured speculation. It is based on a NYT critic's recounting of satirical comments made on the show's website (the cop puppy is a "species traitor"?). She used those as a way to launch into a larger attack on TV cop shows (her commentary is a whole different level of overwrought, IMO). There is no announced plan to cancel it, and it did just get renewed.

https://decider.com/2020/06/11/is-paw-patrol-being-cancelled-protests/ ↗

Also:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-paw-patrol-get-canceled/ ↗

Surprise, Eric Trump & Dana Loesch are another source of the false rumor.

@kjayhawks said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

I’m a little confused how canceling shows like cops and live PD are helping this cause. I don’t watch much tv but I enjoy those shows. If we continue to treat all cops as if they are bad and continue to cut funding, it will only make matters worse. Less training hours and low pay won’t fix anything.

On the issue of TV shows, those shows were problematic because the police department that they filmed got to decide what got aired and how the video was cut. As a result, they could manipulate how they were being portrayed, and even had a say in whether or not things aired. It wasn't as "real" as the shows advertised themselves to be.

As far as defunding, its really shifting funding away from police and into community redevelopment and mental health. Police Departments do not do a good job handling people that are mentally ill. All of the research says that. Most law enforcement groups agree. They are not designed to handle people with mental health issues because the whole idea of law enforcement is based on people understanding actions and consequences. If that isn't present, law enforcement is not designed to respond.

There have been numerous incidents where police have injured or killed someone that was mentally ill because that person did not understand the officer's commands, or even that the officer was law enforcement. While those situations are not the officer's fault, it shows how much the system can fail if law enforcement tries to engage on mental health. It simply cannot work.

Moving law enforcement funds to mental health funding actually could save even more money because now you are treating people rather than just arresting them and having them in jail, where they injure themselves and others, require extra monitoring, damage property, etc.

Putting funds back into community development and youth programs can make a huge difference in deterring kids away from some of those initial issues like trespassing and vandalism that are typically the result of bored kids out running around. Again, this could result in savings because instead of having to imprison and monitor, you just have programs that kids and young adults can participate in.

The funds that get moved could end up being twice as effective as just leaving them in the police budget. There is research out there that early childhood and youth programs cut crime rates later by a significant percentage. If that is true, every dollar you spend on early childhood saves you money later on. So dumping $100M into those types of programs now may result in $5-$10M in savings in the future (i.e., money not spent on additional programs or policing later). That is a huge benefit for society overall. And your taxes may go down, too.

@mayjay said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

Also:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-paw-patrol-get-canceled/ ↗

Surprise, Eric Trump & Dana Loesch are another source of the false rumor.

That's what I hate most about liberals. Everything about them is a lie.

Edit: This was meant to be a play on words, but I realize it sounds too much like an illogical fallacy someone might actually use. Oh well. Imagine, some day returning to a place where we can agree on what is absurd.

@justanotherfan you bring some fair points about a mental health team and I think that’s a good idea but their is plenty of police brutality that doesn’t involve folks with mental issues. It’s like the guy Home Depot not knowing crap about home improvement because he makes $8 an hour and has no training. Leading police down that same path will only make matters worse. Acting as if all police officers are bad is the same as someone saying all white people are rednecks and all African Americans all gangsters. We cant judge people by race, religion, occupation and sex. All kinds of people are evil my friend. In term of the cops and live pd, of coarse it’s edited. But I still have no idea how it helps the cause in this case. I think helps show people some of the issue police face in the field.

!5F279EEC-4140-4F6D-8B3E-6F495E48A6CA.jpeg ↗

@mayjay could be untrue here is one article from New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/10/arts/television/protests-fictional-cops.html ↗

@kjayhawks That is the article I referenced as using the satire about Paw Patrol to attack TV cop dramas (and Brooklyn 99 for that matter). She does NOT say PP is cancelled.

@mayjay right, it was just some info on it and I wasn’t meaning it was canceled but rather people are supposedly calling for it to be.

@kjayhawks

The argument is not that police are all bad. As you very correctly point out, that type of broad generalization is quite silly. The argument is that the system is flawed.

Let's move to a sports analogy to make that point. Referees are required to enforce the rules of the game. If the rule is bad, then even if a referee makes the correct call, they may put a player or team at a disadvantage not because they themselves are biased, but because the rule is flawed.

We have seen the issues the NFL has had with the catch/no catch ruling for years as they have defined and re-defined what a catch is. Because of this, there have been a lot of issues with those rulings over time, often resulting in a disadvantage as a result of rule application.

We have seen the same thing with slow motion review of targeting, which has caused a few ejections at the NCAA level based on the slow motion review, even though no penalty was called on the field because of the speed of the play. The referee in those cases wasn't biased. They just didn't see targeting, so they didn't call it, but the technical, by the book application of the rule when put in super slow motion required that a player be ejected. Happened to KU last season. The official wasn't out to get KU. But that rule requires that application, and because it is reviewable, you can get that result. That is a systemic flaw. No matter who you get as an official, you cannot change that result without changing the underlying rule because the RULE is the problem, not the way it is being enforced.

The same issue exists with law enforcement. There are foundational, systemic flaws. Even if we eliminated or mitigated every personal bias in the individuals that are officers, we would still have problems because the system itself is biased and flawed.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/nyc-shoving-suspect-woman-92 ↗

I'm sure racism caused this.

https://www.news.meredithlmg.com/off-duty-officer-shot-and-killed-in-florida-after-following-a-reckless-driver-authorities-say/article_0c4d78ce-b009-11ea-b322-a7e385874e10.html ↗

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@Crimsonorblue22 Another version, if accurate, might give context to why the officer took the approach he did:

https://www.news-daily.com/news/teens-held-at-gunpoint-by-clayton-county-officer-observed-in-gas-station-parking-lot-with/article_b7137fd8-b009-11ea-a985-4b52b7148aa4.html ↗

@mayjay that is my problem with the media, they push whatever they can regardless if it’s half the story or even true. The media continues to attempt to divide us.

@mayjay that wasn't out there when I read it. I saw a video of a male officer talking to them where it happened and where the BB gun was found. I thought he did a good job of trying to teach them how much that BB gun looked like the real thing and they could've been hurt really bad.

@kjayhawks I don't think so. This version came out after all the angry posts reacting to the bystanders' video. The police released their version quickly. But the media there published it quickly, too. I see no manipulation by the media. This story was driven by social media.

In the past, police never felt much need to give their version, and if a video was provided it was often delayed for months and edited. Only with the prevalence of cell phone cameras have we started seeing versions other than the official ones.

The media are not at fault for the suspicions of the police. That is on the cops, the prosecutors, and police unions that reflexively protect even murderous cops

@Crimsonorblue22 His feeling of vulnerability while waiting for backup unfortunately kept the situation highly charged because he kept his weapon out without any explanation, and it looked like if the kids made a mistake by moving improperly another tragedy would have occurred. A good reason cops should not patrol alone.

@mayjay the guy I saw was at the Lil convenience store.

@mayjay was that a gal or a guy? I don't want to watch it again.

@mayjay if you go down further on the comments there's a video at the convenience Store.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1231189 ↗

Warped and ridiculous.

Those mobs of roaming white kids ... oh wait, 13% of the population but nearly every time this happens, well, BLM. Yet so we’re not racist, we should act as if groups of black kids aren’t threats. Even though we see repeated incidents of this.

“I don't know what else I could do," he told KTRK-TV. "The fifth one at the end came out of the store after purchasing goods, and came up to me and kicked me in the face and said, 'Black Lives Matter, [expletive].'"

https://www.foxnews.com/ ↗ I us/group-brutally-attacks-customer-outside-texas-convenience-store-video-shows

A succinct summary of some of the cases giving rise to the current protests:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/16/us/black-lives-matter-police-violence-what-people-were-doing-trnd/index.html ↗

Sad, but also sad that other races suffer the same fate.

Obviously .. except to the leftist .. if police were not forced to have high numbers of police in inner city black areas, then the contact between blacks and the police would be less, per capita.

But the leftist sees only racism and not a broader view of cause and effect.

@HighEliteMajor Well one this is for certain: We are going to have a whole radically new pile of data to analyze shortly.

@approxinfinity True .. this is insanity. https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/29328113/oklahoma-state-mike-gundy-accused-using-racial-slur-1989-game ↗

Heck, 31 years ago? This is the lead story at ESPN.com. The lead story.

And we see the further movements to tearing down monuments to HISTORY? I mean the NEGRO league hall of fame remains open. No name change. Why? It's HISTORY. We can't change history. Doesn't mean certain things are celebrated. They are remembered, good, bad, indifferent.

Should we hold a long stranding grudge against the Japanese because they thought they were superior to us, bombed and killed thousands of Americans, and started the pacific war?

Well, if we hold that grudge or an old World War II vet might still call them Japs, well he's an old racist that can't let things go. I heard a discussion on that a while back.

@HighEliteMajor said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@approxinfinity True .. this is insanity. https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/29328113/oklahoma-state-mike-gundy-accused-using-racial-slur-1989-game ↗

Heck, 31 years ago? This is the lead story at ESPN.com. The lead story.

And we see the further movements to tearing down monuments to HISTORY? I mean the NEGRO league hall of fame remains open. No name change. Why? It's HISTORY. We can't change history. Doesn't mean certain things are celebrated. They are remembered, good, bad, indifferent.

Should we hold a long stranding grudge against the Japanese because they thought they were superior to us, bombed and killed thousands of Americans, and started the pacific war?

Well, if we hold that grudge or an old World War II vet might still call them Japs, well he's an old racist that can't let things go. I heard a discussion on that a while back.

Yes, we should tear down monuments to traitors who decided America wasn’t good enough because you couldn’t keep another man as your property. We don’t have a monument to the pilots who bombed Pearl Harbor. And we shouldn’t have monuments to traitors that weren’t built until the most racist President we may have ever had’s(Wilson) administration.

@FarmerJayhawk I like your limited thinking there. I think your reply defines the difference between rational debate and idiocy.

We can debate General Lee. And monuments. But I ain't debating George Washington.

And I ain't cancelling Dukes of Hazard because blacks or leftist are offended by a flag on a car.

Idiocy vs. reasonable discussion.

@HighEliteMajor said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk I like your limited thinking there. I think your reply defines the difference between rational debate and idiocy.

We can debate General Lee. And monuments. But I ain't debating George Washington.

And I ain't cancelling Dukes of Hazard because blacks or leftist are offended by a flag on a car.

Idiocy vs. reasonable discussion.

Where did I mention Washington? That’s one of my favorites in DC. I specifically said CONFEDERATES. We shouldn’t glorify people who fought a war over whether you should be able to own people. Full stop. I protested and advocated Silent Sam on UNC’s campus to come down since it glorified the Confederacy and was financially a big drain on the university. You can say whatever you want and call me a leftist (which is a lie) but I don’t see what’s controversial about taking down monuments to traitors.

I dont think we should have statues up that are reminders to 10.3% of the population that their ancestors were brought here as slaves, and that they and their descendents have been treated as subhuman by many.

Replace it with something less offensive. The reasoning to keep them up at this point is weak. This isn't a slippery slope. Let's get past the past.

Regarding the negro league hall of fame, sure.. take the statues down and throw them in a museum. I'm all for that. They don't need to be prominently displayed in downtown Richmond.

I think re: your point @HighEliteMajor , a museum is a more appropriate venue for contemplating the good and bad of history. Monuments are for heroes.

It is highly encouraging to see that some people have come so far in their understanding, shaking off the virulent hatred of their childhoods. A testament to human potential.

"George Wallace's daughter reflects on current racial unrest: 'America is hurting'"
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/18/politics/peggy-wallace-kennedy-bash-intv/index.html ↗

Ja Morant recently asked Murray, KY where he played his college ball at to remove a statue of Robert E. Lee in town. My first reaction was why did that town even have a Lee statue to begin with. For those unaware of US history, Kentucky was one of four states where slavery was legal, but voted against secession from the US and remained part of the Union during the Civil War. The other 3 states were Delaware, Maryland, and Missouri. A group of counties in northwestern Virginia refused to follow the rest of the state also voted against secession from the United States and created the new state of West Virginia and fought on the side of the Union during the Civil War.

Why would a state that sided with the Union during the Civil War vote to put up a statue of a man who committed treason against them?

Tear the statues down and put them in museums somewhere to teach the true history of the south in the Civil War, not the bastardized version that southern states try to teach. Most states, including Texas still try to push the narrative of States' Rights being the biggest factor in secession which is an absolute lie. Specifically, southern states didn't want the federal government making laws restricting slavery which obviously pissed the south off and so they went and tried and failed to gain their independence from the US.

@Texas-Hawk-10 said:

Specifically, southern states didn’t want the federal government making laws restricting slavery...

And not just in the South. With the Fugitive Slave Act and the Dred Scott decision, the southern states obtained the power to force free states to return escaped slaves, and for slavers to take their slaves wherever they wanted. Effectively exporting slavery throughout the nation, and severely curtailing free states' own state sovereignty.

@mayjay Don't get me going on Roger Taney and the Dred Scott case. That was the absolute worst ruling our Supreme Court has ever made.

Lincoln is also the most overrated president to me. Not enough people understand Lincoln's views on black people and he probably would not be viewed as favorably as he is if it was more well known he wasn't an abolitionist, initially he just wanted to contain slavery to states it ready existed in and had no plans to abolish slavery initially. Not enough people also realize the Emancipation Proclamation was purely a political ploy to get reelected because of how unpopular the Civil War was in the north and that it didn't actually free anybody. It only freed slaves in territories considered to be in rebellion (Confederate held areas) and didn't apply to slaves in the Border States of Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, or West Virginia who all stayed with the Union or to parts of the Confederacy the Union had already gained control of such as Tennessee and a big chunk of Louisiana.

Lincoln also didn't believe black and white people could ever coexist and was a big proponent of the Liberia Plan which was a plan to send freed blacks to a colony created for freed slaves in Liberia.

@HighEliteMajor none of this happens now without the backdrop of COVID. The Gundy story wouldn't be on the frontpage because there would be sports going on, but also because the Black Lives Matter resurgence is reigniting in a tinderbox moment.

My point is ESPN doesn't have a whole lot more relevant sports material right now, unless you want them all in on Bundesliga (I'm game). It would be great if going after Zion didn't conflict with their own interests.

If you're saying ESPN is garbage, I'm with you. They have been garbage for years. Fat and lazy. I'm just curious what you think should be on the front page.

@approxinfinity I eat lunch from 11:30 - 12:30 most days, and usually I eat out. Before all this started, ESPN was constantly regurgitating their hero Kaepernick. It was constant on the TV during this time .. Bob Ley or some other host. Constant. They got stupid stuff like the "Undefeated" where all they do is talk about racial B.S. constantly. ESPN is garbage.

@Texas-Hawk-10 You don't know much about the Supreme Court. And it's just foolish to talk about Lincoln like that. Really idiocy. Lincoln's actions preserved the nation. Get that? You hear that? PRESERVED THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I don't care whether he really thought this, or something was a political ploy, etc. It all pales in comparison to perhaps the greatest achievement a president has accomplished.

Most overrated? Perhaps the most stupid thing I've seen posted in while. Please take it back.

It's like saying Franklin Roosevelt was overrated. Heck, folks say he was racist. Didn't invite Jesse Owens to the White House, while inviting others. But guess what .. the guy won WW II. Lincoln saved the country as well.

http://new.wymaninstitute.org/2019/07/facing-up-to-fdrs-racism/ ↗

@HighEliteMajor I'm tired of talking about race too. The events of the past few weeks have made it clear to me that we need to solve the issues so we can stop talking about it.

If this country were a person they would be a self-loathing hand-ringer.

If our separation from slavery was a messy divorce, where was the alimony?

Also, why haven't the pictures of slave owners been taken off the wall?

And why is racism still following us around in an unmarked car, in violation of the restraining order?

The logical conclusion is that some part of us as a country isn't willing to let it go.

We need to work together to find a new identity.

@approxinfinity What is most important is to realize that if we wanted to, we white people can stay in our homes, watch Netflix, order delivered groceries, and totally immerse ourselves in whatever we want. We can forget all the race stuff any time we want.

Blacks and other minorites cannot afford for a second to forget that at any time going into public they risk possibly being targeted or suspected or followed or accused because of their color.

Actually, even innocently at home they risk being mudered.

Any white saying they are tired of this should start by reading Black Like Me, then watch Selma, followed by The Forgiven. After that, go talk to persons of color about their experiences with LE. Then shut up about how big their own burden is.

You know the tide is turning when noted left-wing rag... National Review(!) says Confederate monuments should mostly come down. https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/06/confederate-statues-debate-conservatives-shouldnt-defend-symbols-secession/ ↗

@mayjay I'm allowed to be tired of talking about race, and when someone says they're tired of something, forcing what they're tired of down their throat is in my opinion pretty insensitive, tone deaf and counter productive. I think this line of whitewashed reasoning is akin to the simplistic, artificial, white-flight archetype it purports to combat. I.e. you're tired of it too, and you're throwing out a half baked solution, you may just not see it.

All of our lives we've been talking about race. Do you want to talk about us white folks and those brown folks and those Asian folks and how ne'er the twain shall meet for the rest of our lives? Do you want our children to have to be divided by race? Or do you want to get past it?

I'm sick of talking about it. You are too. Let's fix it.

The blinders we wear. Some people think football players kneeling = disrespecting the troops. Others think being tired of something means a lack of compassion.

Exhaustion isn't malaise. We all know what we are dealing with. And that's where I think you guys have @HighEliteMajor pegged wrong. Someone writing page after page after page about something isn't someone who doesn't care. It's someone who is tired of bullshit and wants solutions. We can disagree about those solutions (we do!) but hanging him out to dry as a racist because he is sick of our broken self-image as a nation is an oversimplification of where he is coming from.

I am neither exhausted nor tired, and not sick of talking about it with people who are affected. Poor little white people, victimized by the consequences of ignoring it except when things go crazy.

My black neighbor's niece got pulled over last Friday for not having proper window tinting. She was near her son's elementary school to pick him up, so she pulled into the parking lot there. Yanked out of the car by the white cop in front of the kids, and (lightly) frisked. He gave her a ticket. She called her mother as she walked back to the car and said to her mom, "No, I don't know what the hell that was all about!"

The cop heard her, and arrested her for cursing on school property. The school principal and security officer tried to get the cop to back off because it wasn't even something the kids could hear. My neighbor is related to a police chief in a major city here, knows the Columbia police chief well, and has a state senator as a relative. After she and they started burning up the phones, the cop let her go about 6 pm.

If my neighbor wasn't "connected" the niece would have spent the weekend in jail.

And if I hadn't gone over to my neighbor's house on Sunday and said, "Hey, let's talk about what's been going on" I never would have known about it. Or had a chance to wonder how often that crap goes on.

Go ahead, pretend that we are able to be racially neutral. Just be aware that when someone is targeted because of race, the fact that you don't want to hear about the anger it causes doesn't make that anger--the product of 400 years of oppression, rape, and muder--go away.

As for your willingness to absolve HEM, you have done it for years. He attacks people all the time, and you desperately need to think his long-winded bullshit reveals an intellectual current worth crediting. You never call him out for abusive language, but you have done so with me and others.

If you think HEM is not a racist, you just aren't paying attention. A dialog with someone who spews the "blacks should be happy they were enslaved because Africans are worse off" line is repeating almost word for word what Robert E. Lee said 164 years ago, around the time he was breaking up his slaves' families through selling the parents separately and their children, too.

I am done with this discussion and pretty much this forum. Trying to talk to someone who thinks HEM is worth listening to is just too frustrating. While you try to listen, he will continue to spew his hatred and disdain. Enjoy.

@mayjay So you're only tired of talking about it with people who disagree with you?

You're angry about it. But I think your anger is misplaced when it's aimed at any white person who disagrees with you.

I believe that we all have unconscious biases. But I reserve the racist label for people who actively hate on other races, not just say things that seem insensitive or illogical.

I've stated numerous times that it's not my job to police people on here. I do what I can and I have called out HEM before.

The context of this being tired of talking about race is in regards to crappy ESPN articles about race. ESPN, a place we go for sports. Similarly, crappy books I had to read growing up in public school simply because they were about race. I didn't mind the good ones, mind you. I minded the crappy ones. Your neighbor's story is a great illustration of the real problems and police reform is top of the list.

I'm trying to be a realist and a centrist. If you don't like how I go about it that's fine. But as a moderator I'm trying to remain moderate.

Answer me this.. what affect would my reading "Black Like Me" have on the police officer arresting your neighbor's daughter? What affect would it have on anything? What does it say about your unconscious bias of how you think I conduct my life that you think I need to read "Black Like Me" and then "shut up"?

@approxinfinity Okay, I will grant you that you could reach that conclusion from my wording. So an explanation is in order.

I am disgusted by racist people, and feel no need to engage with anyone who does not respect what other people have to say. I also see no reason to engage in ongoing discussions about why hateful people should be listened to. As to well-intentioned people like yourself, you may wish to fool yourself about HEM but you cannot get me to follow that path. So, my energy will go into talking with dozens of people who can recognize racism and hatred when they see it.

Neville Chamberlain believed Hitler wanted peace because he said so.

@mayjay PS I said more above... Kept editing my post.

@mayjay ok thanks for meeting me more in the middle. I just think what we are fighting now in an awareness of unconscious bias and not racism for 97% (? arbitrarily large number. Vast majority is what I mean) of Americans.

@approxinfinity "Shut up about how big [a white person's] burden is" is what I said about someone tired of the whole thing, not simply shut up.

I think you do yourself a disservice by saying you are tired of it or sick of it. If you are seeking solutions, you by definition are not just griping--a better phrase for you might be "frustrated by the need to talk about it". I am talking about the people who are tired of being inconvenienced, and wish the blacks would just realize how much better they have it than it was before.

@mayjay So I don't think of it as a disservice because I think it's ok to just say you're sick of it. I think that falls under pursuit of happiness. Some conversation is productive. Other conversation isnt. Don Lemon and Chris Cuomo talking about whats going on is idiotic. They're both insufferable.

I think this board is a great example of the debate about what unites us. Is it discussing our differences (i.e. race and socioeconomics) or discussing our similarities (KU bball fandom)? I am opposed to the idea of dwelling on negatives because I think it creates a culture of negativity. So i think we need balance. And that doesn't mean dropping bombs of negativity from an opposing view. Genuine positivity. That's why @FarmerJayhawk 's take is imo the most refreshing on a regular basis. He tries to find the good.

Also, I'm sure there are times I've been overly pessimistic myself.. This is how I'm feeling now: we need balance and optimism to get us through this.

And hey, tearing down the monuments is something exciting. I hope we replace them thoughtfully. Police reform is something more exciting. I think while defunding the police seems nuts, the positive spin is that it will show us things we never would have seen. And more deliberate reform hopefully will follow, leading us somewhere good in the end.

That's how I get through the Trump administration, coronavirus quarantine, now this. Hope that by seeing our worst we can better achieve our best.

@approxinfinity said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@mayjay So I don't think of it as a disservice because I think it's ok to just say you're sick of it. I think that falls under pursuit of happiness. Some conversation is productive. Other conversation isnt. Don Lemon and Chris Cuomo talking about whats going on is idiotic. They're both insufferable.

I think this board is a great example of the debate about what unites us. Is it discussing our differences (i.e. race and socioeconomics) or discussing our similarities (KU bball fandom)? I am opposed to the idea of dwelling on negatives because I think it creates a culture of negativity. So i think we need balance. And that doesn't mean dropping bombs of negativity from an opposing view. Genuine positivity. That's why @FarmerJayhawk 's take is imo the most refreshing on a regular basis. He tries to find the good.

Also, I'm sure there are times I've been overly pessimistic myself.. This is how I'm feeling now: we need balance and optimism to get us through this.

And hey, tearing down the monuments is something exciting. I hope we replace them thoughtfully. Police reform is something more exciting. I think while defunding the police seems nuts, the positive spin is that it will show us things we never would have seen. And more deliberate reform hopefully will follow, leading us somewhere good in the end.

That's how I get through the Trump administration, coronavirus quarantine, now this. Hope that by seeing our worst we can better achieve our best.

Appreciate the kind words, sir!

@FarmerJayhawk we shall call you, Pollyanna! 🤣

@Crimsonorblue22 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@FarmerJayhawk we shall call you, Pollyanna! 🤣

Ha! I don’t hate it

Imagine how tired minorities (esp Black and Latino) must be of being passed over for jobs and promotions in favor of less qualified white candidates.

@mayjay said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

If you think HEM is not a racist, you just aren't paying attention. A dialog with someone who spews the "blacks should be happy they were enslaved because Africans are worse off" line is repeating almost word for word what Robert E. Lee said 164 years ago, around the time he was breaking up his slaves' families through selling the parents separately and their children, too.

DING DING DING DING DING.

@FarmerJayhawk my friends call me that all the time, always the peacemaker.

@BShark said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

Imagine how tired minorities (esp Black and Latino) must be of being passed over for jobs and promotions in favor of less qualified white candidates.

Sort of tangentially, I teach this paper every semester in stats/quant methods in policy. https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1257/0002828042002561 ↗

@FarmerJayhawk said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

@BShark said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):

Imagine how tired minorities (esp Black and Latino) must be of being passed over for jobs and promotions in favor of less qualified white candidates.

Sort of tangentially, I teach this paper every semester in stats/quant methods in policy. https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1257/0002828042002561 ↗

This lines up with the experiences of people I talk to. Some people end up using initials or adopting a secondary "white sounding" name to bypass at least the initial biases.

@FarmerJayhawk thanks for the link. Good stuff.

@BShark I work at an agency that helps people find work. We are very aware of these issues and are exploring options to mitigate the problems. There are many other factors besides names. Employers value individuality and what sets you apart, so it's a balancing act.

The reality is that most don't want to have a discussion on this topic. I've said it before, but the "he's a racist" claim shields one from having to face facts. It's easy for small minded among us (like @BShark) to avoid his lack of intellect with the accusation. But as I've said before, ok, now what?

I provided a link from a fellow far from a conservative that largely echos my positions (Orlando Patterson). Yet, it's easier for many of you to be dishonest or to again cry racism.

But ok, let's say certain positions are racist? Ok. So what? Talk to the blacks the live the horror of inner city violence. Intellectually, the claim that it is racist doesn't matter. Intellectually, what matters are facts and logic. And the truth is, I have a lot of facts. Significant facts that can't be refuted. They are facts that make leftists and white apologists uncomfortable. Thus, there positions are just dismissed as racist because they can't be refuted.

One of the posts I remember is when I pointed out the issue of black out of wedlock births. Resident skinny jeans leftist @benshawks08 was caught off guard. He really didn't even know what I was talking about. He further was attacking and dismissive of the role of faith in being part of the solution But of course, @benshawks08 - being an atheist homosexual - has a clear bias against those items having relevance. Why? Because it personally offends his existence. But we can certain exist together. He can be a gay atheist in America. Fine. But he lets that personal bias interfere with discussing realities.

Nevermind the former (leftist) mayor of Chicago, after eight years on the job, identified the out of wedlock births and faith as key components to attacking inner city violence.

And see, that's it - the dishonest left, many here, won't consider that this analysis is a pie graph. Lots of slices.

You can see many folks that want to have a discussion, like @approxinfinity. He doesn't agree. But he works to address facts and logic. And there is a large difference. I throw @FarmerJayhawk in that group. I made the mistake of throwing the leftist label his way. My mistake. But he tends to attack the argument, and the issue intelligently, like @approxinfinity.

Perhaps the worst of this forum is @mayay. I'll tell you why.

First, @mayay is a lawyer. That's fine. I'm a lawyer. Ah, you didn't know that. But with @mayjay, look back on his posts, when he'd get boxed it, he'd pull out the I'm an lawyer thing to throw in folks faces. As if he then had the higher ground. Well it's pathetic. I've been posting for over 15 years and never once did I pull that out. Why? Because that wasn't part of the discussion.

Second, @mayjay is full sh. Go back and look. There was a discussion on NCAA rules and a rules interpretation. @mayjay pulled out the, well, unless you're a lawyer thing, to support his argument. But worse, he threw out legal terms that had no applicability. That's the b.s. lawyers use to shut down discussion. For example, he cited a principle called "res judicata." That is a legal principal that relates to "claim preclusion." You can't re-litigate the same claim. @mayjay cited the term in a our discussion in response to his incorrect interpretation of the rule -- WHICH HAS NO APPLICABILITY AND WAS COMPLETE BULLSH.

Just so you know, you non-lawyers, he's full of it. I'm a litigator, regularly deal with that issue (together will collateral estopple, which is issue preclusion).

Again, I just didn't feel the need to throw that in folks' face like @mayjay does.

BUT WORSE, @mayjay IS A LIAR. He does this regularly. He's suggest someone said something, but that's not what they said. Then he'll used the incorrect citation to make a point.

Above, @mayjay, used a Hitler analogy. @mayjay is a complete idiot.

BUT HERE'S A RECENT AND SIMPLE EXAMPLE OF @mayjay's DISHONESTY. BLATANT.

@mayjay said, referring to me, A dialog with someone who spews the “blacks should be happy they were enslaved because Africans are worse off” line is repeating almost word for word what Robert E. Lee said 164 years ago, around the time he was breaking up his slaves’ families through selling the parents separately and their children, too. And of course, idiot @BShark quoted his material.

He used quotes, but I never said that. He made it up. Further, assuming the use of quotes was loose, it's still not what I said. Here's what I said,

It seems quite a bit better to be an African-American vs. just an African. But perhaps my opinion there is off …

And more foolishness – true or untrue, blacks in America are better off than blacks in Africa? Undeniable. Turn that however you want. The point is sometimes that your reach a place in history, and most times through tragedy, that places the next generation in a better position that the prior generation. The Japanese and Germans, through tragedy, propelled America and our nation to a place that would not have been achieved without such tragedy. Do we wish it wouldn’t have occurred? Sure. Of course. But are we, our generation, in a better position because of it? Definitely.

And then @Kcmatt7 says, oh, I guess the Jews should be "happy" for holocaust because they now have Israel.

It truly the simple minded that cannot differentiate.

The point is that once tragic events happen, sometimes, the end result is better for those that follow. I'm sure the lives lost in the Revolutionary war were tragic. But the result was better for future generations. Simple concept.

But you can see (if you truly try) the significant difference. Now one is saying ANYONE should be thankful for slavery, or WWII, or the Holocaust, or any tragedy. But it is undeniable that a tragedy can place the future generation in a better position than they otherwise would be.

THE CHALLENGE IS TO FREE YOUR MIND TO DISCUSS TOPICS THAT ARE CONTROVERSIAL, THAT CHALLENGE YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS, THAT MAKE YOU UNCOMFORTABLE. WE'RE SEEING THAT NOW. BUT IT'S A TWO WAY STREET. BLACKS HAVE TO FACE THE REALITY THAT GREAT MANY OF THEIR PROBLEMS ARE A RESULT OF THEIR BEHAVIORS -- PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. IF FOLKS HERE CAN'T EVEN GRASP THAT, WELL, THEN YOU ARE LOST.

I'm just not going to quietly be beat over the head for being "white" if someone is not going to have the discussion about "blacks."

It seems ok to group all of us "whites" together, but the minute it's a discussion of "blacks", then we can only use the term "blacks" when it comes to discussing them as victims or their positive characteristic -- but we sure as he** better not discuss their failings.

And, of course, my discussion on blacks has only been on the warped and depraved black inner city culture. That's all. And that's all I'm concerned about. Inner city loss of life is horrific and that's the drum I've been beating.

Perhaps, if you don't want to find a solution to that (leftists) then perhaps you are the true racists -- I mean, if inner city black deaths at the hands of other blacks is acceptable.

HERE'S WHAT'S EVEN MORE FUNNY. I'VE DESTROYED THE LEFTISTS HERE ON THIS TOPIC. UTTERLY DESTROYED YOU. YOU ALL SIT BACK AND SHAKE YOUR HEAD AND MUTTER "RACIST", BUT YOUR PATHETIC ASS** HAVE BEEN HANDED TO YOU ON A PLATTER.

This podcast really got me today.

https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3MuYXJ0MTkuY29tL3RoZS1kYWlseQ&ep=14&episode=Z2lkOi8vYXJ0MTktZXBpc29kZS1sb2NhdG9yL1YwL1BpZnNOR0lUUExESDM2TzlQYmU3cFVYcnRnT3B3OXlKRXhRdXB5UWlMMnc ↗

@HighEliteMajor you got a lot of anger in you man. It doesn't help when you feel you aren't being honestly heard. But if our goal in discussing things is to destroy one another, rather than inform one another and make each other think, we are only going to get more entrenched.

@Crimsonorblue22 From the hypocrite. The one that makes a federal case out of Ashley Juggs and then makes multiple comments on the appearance of teenage KU basketball players. Birds of feather ...

@Crimsonorblue22 Just shows you for the extreme hypocrite you are. I don’t care what you say about the players. I’m cool with it. You’re the hypocrite.

@approxinfinity Look at how discussions start ... then the anger and B.S. that follows. Quite frankly, I just don’t take it anymore. I respond and refute the repeated lies, mischaracterizations, and accusations.

Anger? Hmm. Hitler, racist, klan member, white supremacist, hater, asshole, sicko, etc. That’s a sampling what is directed at me by folks that quite frankly can’t hold my jock.

I’ve been much more aggressive over the last few years because I’m sick of turning the other cheek.

I abandoned the real BB analysis because it inspired so much anger and garbage. It just wasn’t worth it any longer.

I want to leave some of you leftists with this thought -

Imagine if I chose to protest by taking a piss on MLK’s grave? Just to protest his immorality, womanizing and sexism.

Well that’s how many, many Americans feel about dishonoring American during the national anthem.

Folks want to attack America? I’ll always be their enemy. Always.

They may have the “right”, but that doesn’t mean it’s right. Just like my sample protest isn’t right.

It’s all hypocritical. Can you imagine if folks on the right did anything near this? Or like Seattle? It would be the end of the world.

What Seattle needs is a few real Americans, just a few of us, and the Chaz zone would be done and over.

I’m done here.

This site has gone to hell. And it will never recover.

As for our country, until folks realize that what matters is prioritizing and preserving life, nothing will get better. An amoral society is a trigger for decay. We see it now. The slippery slope is as true as it’s ever been.

And the left is more concerned about racism than life itself.

We bow down to < 13% of the population that refuses to focus on their nightly assassinations born from a sick culture of extreme violence, lack of personal responsibility, and disrespect for women. A culture that refuses to help itself. Where the leaders is the culture — the athletes — glorify the “thug life.” Great leaders.

Black Lives only matter when it’s convenient— convenient for blacks and for enabling white leftists. The same white leftists that have run inner cities for decades.

Anger? A little. More so just sick to see the shit hole into which this country is descending.

No matter how many monuments you tear down, how many ways you try to erase history, blacks were always slaves. Can’t change it.

And the cold, hard, bottom line fact is that is blacks, as a group, had the same work ethic and morality as the Hispanics that risk everything to come the US, much of this would be moot.

Racist? Whatever. Fuck off to all of you.

@HighEliteMajor Alright. Well. I'll ban you for [EDIT] 2 days (this seems like an arbitrary number. I have no official policy here. I don't even know if a ban is appropriate. I just want people to not resort to cussing each other out). Take a breather and see if things change. Come check back in after that if you want to be more civil. I appreciate the thoughts but the hate is just not productive. I really don't know what else to do, and honestly, it seems like stepping away from this discussion might be best for you. Please don't go hang out in a bubble of like minded people though. Debate is good, even if it didn't work out here at this moment.

I think the site is as much going to hell as the rest of world. Take care and hope you feel better soon.

We'll need you come basketball season, regardless of all else. Even if it feels like it may never happen. It will. We'll get there again.

If anyone has any suggestions for improvements, as always I'm all ears. My assumption is that it's the off season, things are always slow, and when you throw in a global pandemic and racial unrest like we've never seen. Well, times are weird. But let me know please if anyone has suggestions. That includes you @HighEliteMajor , please reach out to me via email at approxinfinity@gmail.com

Might be unpopular, but I hope @HighEliteMajor comes back, and he and other posters stop with the personal garbage. He’s contrarian as hell and we go at it regularly, but it’s fun and rarely got very nasty on either side. The world is a better place with more speech, not less.

So @approxinfinity maybe institute some sort of warning system for personal attacks? Once, a day ban, second, a week, third, forever? Idk.

@FarmerJayhawk it's a slippery slope. I don't want to police people. I want people to just be good because it's the right thing to do.

I'm going to lock this thread; I think it's time for a fresh start on this topic.