@dylans Devon is good. Great even, at times (Dayton), when his skillset is the answer to the game at hand (10 made shots inside the arc, 8-10 FT, 5 steals). But he isn't consistently great (Frank POY year, Devonte runner up POY year), and he needs to be a better facilitator in games where we need him to pass.

Frank shot 47% from 3 his senior year, 5.2 to 2.4 TO ratio, Devon is shooting 30% from 3 this year, 4.4 to 2.6 assist to TO ratio. Devonte on the other hand had a 7.2 to 2.8 assist to TO ratio his senior year and shot 40% from 3, shooting 2 more on average than Frank, and we went to the FF. Marcus Garrett, by comparison, has a 4.3 to 1.5 assist to TO ratio, but also is a 30.4% 3pt shooter.

As it stands, I'd rather have the ball in Marcus' hands, unless Devon becomes a better passer or 3pt shooter.

I'm fine with alternating throughout the game, but in crunch time I want Marcus Iverson Garrett handling the ball.

Marcus is just smarter. Dot is not a good jump shooter and his timing scares me. He needs to go left or right doesn't finish well down the middle.

approxinfinity said:

@dylans Devon is good. Great even, at times (Dayton), when his skillset is the answer to the game at hand (10 made shots inside the arc, 8-10 FT, 5 steals). But he isn't consistently great (Frank POY year, Devonte runner up POY year), and he needs to be a better facilitator in games where we need him to pass.

Frank shot 47% from 3 his senior year, 5.2 to 2.4 TO ratio, Devon is shooting 30% from 3 this year, 4.4 to 2.6 assist to TO ratio. Devonte on the other hand had a 7.2 to 2.8 assist to TO ratio his senior year and shot 40% from 3, shooting 2 more on average than Frank, and we went to the FF. Marcus Garrett, by comparison, has a 4.3 to 1.5 assist to TO ratio, but also is a 30.4% 3pt shooter.

As it stands, I'd rather have the ball in Marcus' hands, unless Devon becomes a better passer or 3pt shooter.

Quite frankly, this isn't a fair comparison you're making. Comparing sophomore Dotson to senior Mason and senior Graham isn't fair to Dotson because those guys had 3 prior season's in Bill Self's system. Dotson has had 1 year entering this season.

A more fair comparison would be Mason and Graham's sophomore season's when they were at a similar development level. Even then, those aren't totally fair comparisons either because Mason and Graham didn't start and play the minutes as a freshman that Dotson did.

@Texas-Hawk-10 true, he's faster and finishes better than both of them. I'm not even comparing them. He also wants to leave after this year. My concern is that he seems to have dropped off a little, instead of improving.

@Crimsonorblue22 I think the difference is this year, teams are keyed into to stopping Dotson as he's viewed as the most dangerous player on the floor for KU because of his speed. Last year, Lawson was the focal point most of the season on offense so teams didn't key on Dotson like they're doing this year.

Dotson was ahead of where Mason and Graham as a freshman but he played considerably more then they did. I expected a good jump from this season and it just hasn’t happened. It would be better to compare him an Aaron Miles since they both started from the get go. Aaron was great because he seldom forced shots and got everyone involved in the offense. Aaron only averaged 9 points as an upperclassman but only shot the ball 7 or 8 times a game. If he was forcing up twice as many shots as Dotson is, he probably would’ve averaged 4 or 5 more points. I think Dotson just needs to slow down a bit and look for others before he forces up a shot against 3 guys taller than him in the lane. If 3 guys are in front of you, someone is wide the hell open. I’d switch him to the 2 guard for a few stretches and see how it goes. Some guys shoot the ball better as an off guard, never know til you try. I personally think he’s a mid second rounder and has a fair chance to stay.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I dont really think this about being fair. I'm not saying Devon doesn't have a high ceiling. I'm trying to discuss just what is best for the team.

We have championship expectations. What puts us in the best position to win?

If the answer is that Devon can't improve his 3pt shooting mid season or his assist to turnover ratio, then I think the answer is Marcus handling the ball more.

The biggest jump Dotson could have made was becoming a better shooter, a more complete scorer. He still doesn't have a midrange or floater and his jumpshot requires space to get off so he rarely takes contested 3s. That's why it doesnt appear he has improved as much as we might have hoped but there is no doubt he is a better player then he was as a freshman. He is one the best guards as a sophomore that Self has ever had. He could be an All American. Big 12 POY and 1st team Big 12 player by end of conference play and the season

The biggest thing with him seems to be poise in crunch time and not getting sped up. We forget it's his 2nd year because he has ran the show since day 1. I think his last 3 games have been average but if we know anything about Devon he is going to bounce back.

Dotson has been a fair bit better with higher usage to boot. Not sure what some expected. He wasn't going to morph into Steph.

@BShark

But the staff has made miracles with shooters in the past. I think knowing he wont be here 4 years has made the sense of urgency to be Devonte/Frank good now the expectation.

@BShark he had more poise last yr, didn't he? I think he's really great, just expected improvement. Aren't his #'s down?

approxinfinity said:

@Texas-Hawk-10 I dont really think this about being fair. I'm not saying Devon doesn't have a high ceiling. I'm trying to discuss just what is best for the team.

We have championship expectations. What puts us in the best position to win?

If the answer is that Devon can't improve his 3pt shooting mid season or his assist to turnover ratio, then I think the answer is Marcus handling the ball more.

If this team wins a national title, it's not going to be because of their offense, it'll be the defense that carries the team.

Being real here, Mason and Graham had great numbers as seniors, and still couldn't win a title so I'm not overly concerned with Dotson's individual numbers. If you go look at the team that did win the title, their individual numbers weren't mind blowing. Leading scorer at 13.3 ppg, leading rebounder at 6.7 rpg, assist leader had 4.3 apg (and wasn't the lead guard that year). That team won because of their defense.

The 2012 Final Four team is a much closer comparison to this team however and that team wasn't good offensively. Nobody on that team was a good shooter, Tyshawn was at 38% and the rest of the perimeter players shot a lot of 3's were around 33%. That team also struggled big time with FT's with only Withey over 70% among players that averaged more than 1 attempt per game. That team also had a PG who was very mistake prone and many wanted to strangle for most of the season. Kentucky was a great team that year that stopped KU, but there is no Kentucky type team this year so if this team gets hot in late February or March, they'll have as a good a shot as anyone to cut the nets down in Atlanta this season.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@BShark he had more poise last yr, didn't he? I think he's really great, just expected improvement. Aren't his #'s down?

His numbers are up across the board. Raw and advanced stats.

Lots of ways to win a national title.

What is our best team?

To say our offense wont be the reason we win the NC because is silly because the converse has to be part of the discussion. The biggest thing standing in our way is our offense.

Our offense has to function at a higher level to win the NC.

This starts in my opinion with marginalizing McCormack. He’s not part of our “best team” when Doke’s on the floor. Use him solely as Doke’s backup.

Next, and most importantly, Agbaji has to be a go to guy. If he’s not, we’re pretenders. It’s that simple. He was atrocious yesterday offensively.

I do like the idea of Garrett having the ball more vs. Dotson when the two are on the floor together.

Another consideration is substantially limiting our low reward (vs risk) two point jumpers.

Only Dave and Doke shoot decent on two point jumpers (which are all two point shots not at the rim, thus those 3-4 footers count). The rest of our team is under 40%. Why shoot that when we shoot 35%+ from three?

To win the NC, I think we need our three point attempts to increase. But we need to get some consistency there game to game.

Braun is a big part of that. Clearly has surpassed Enaruna in Self’s eyes.

And, of course, we have to aggressively defend the line. Seems like we challenged the line much better yesterday.

Question for you guys. In Self's first season who brought the ball up? Miles was about as pass first as you can get. because there seems to be a trend of having the second option be Self's pass first guard (finding the "third side"), how did that play out with Roy's personnel and how far back did this philosophy for Self go? It did seem to be present even with Mario (and sherron) and Russ Robb and the pass first second guard.

@HighEliteMajor I honestly think Dave will be the better player overall he just isn’t there yet. He has a better touch, quicker feet, and honestly tries harder. His hands aren’t as good and he is more mistake prone but I think his upside is way higher. I could actually see him in the NBA where with Doke I just don’t see it. I think we have to keep giving Dave minutes to develop and that’s what starting him does. He gets every game guaranteed time when the game is not do or die. I think it’s one of Self’s more innovative strategies for bringing a guy along.

Self knows if the game gets tight, he’s going to go with whoever he thinks gives him the best chance to win (see Christian Braun) but by keeping Big Dave as a starter self can assure Dave keeps a positive attitude and continues to grow. And if Dave is on, Self will let him go off. He had a huge game not to long ago and that can definitely happen again. But not if self gets too comfortable with the 4 guard, toughest guy, rotation and forgets to save enough minutes for Dave AND Silvio to keep them interested and fighting for playing time.

@benshawks08 Do you mean Dave will be better than Dok?

Udoka just turned 20. Four months ago he was still a teenager. He has only played in 20 league games his whole college career, even though he's a senior, because of injuries. He just recently learned how to grab a frickin' rebound.

I think he's still learning. His upside is still huge. He's an athletic giant, still developing skills.

I do like Dave, but Dok is unusual, special, a real monster, and I think he still has way more in him.

@tundrahok yeah I really do think Dave will be better than doke. Doke just hasn’t been able to develop any touch outside of 4 feet and he won’t be able to catch all those lobs in the NBA. Too many other monsters and super athletic bigs that can get just as high.

I’m confident Dave will develop a shot almost out to the three point line if not an actual 3 ball in the next 5 years. He has a great stroke from the free throw line and has been anxious to show his range a few games which means he sees them go in at practice.

@benshawks08

If you look at the games where KU has played good teams Dave has really struggled. Much of that could be playing out of position but it makes me wonder just how far away he still is from making the kind of impact Doke can give on a nightly basis. It will be interesting to see next year what Dave can do playing his more natural position and being asked to step into a bigger role and leader.

I think Devon has taken a little hit on his confidence lately. Let's hope this is the worst of his "dip." Even knowing that, at times he still manages to drive to the rim and he is a solid finisher for his size and age.

I don't think we go anywhere in March without Devon leading this team. Marcus is capable of being a pg, but he is more dangerous playing off the ball and attacking through certain sets. If we put Devon on the pine and replace with Marcus over an entire game I think it will be evident why both players are so important and at their current positions, with Marcus only sometimes stepping in for Devon or playing that second PG position when we need another ball handler in the backcourt.

There is a reason why little Devon is receiving looks from all the NBA scouts. As of now, unless we bring a trophy home in April, I still see Devon needing to come back another year. He just needs seasoning. He needs to play PG and lead a team at least one more year to better establish his footing. If he leaves too soon and gets shuffled around, he could always be a close miss in the league because he just hasn't had the rock enough to workout his rough edges and still lacks that killer confidence needed in the league to run a team at PG.

@BeddieKU23 Don’t get me wrong, doke is better right now and can dominate at this level like few others, I’m just saying big picture professionally Dave will have more options because he at least has functional shooting mechanics. Also that rebound he got at the end of the WV game was a big boy rebound. No way doke gets to that ball.

I think Seth Greenburg making a pretty good point. He was talking at half time during the West Virginia and Oklahoma State game.

He was talking about how there is no dominant take over guy this year in College basketball. - -Talking about all these under class men declaring for the NBA.

Last 3 years 64 - - 79 - - 84 underclassmen declaring for the NBA. - he says you realize there is only 60 players drafted in two rounds - -so these guys declaring and then going un drafted. - - Saying you realize how much so and so how much more a particular team would of been if these guys would of came back for one more year.

Something to think about - - now you know it - -and I know it but how beneficial would it be for Devon to come back yet another year? - It's not going to happen BUT would be a lot more beneficial for him cause he has not taken that step so far this season to declare. but chances are he will declare go un drafted and lose his final two years of eligibility in College and waste the talent he does have, - again look how many is declaring and how many get drafted - -not good ods. -- ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

jayballer73 said:

I think Seth Greenburg making a pretty good point. He was talking at half time during the West Virginia and Oklahoma State game.

He was talking about how there is no dominant take over guy this year in College basketball. - -Talking about all these under class men declaring for the NBA.

Last 3 years 64 - - 79 - - 84 underclassmen declaring for the NBA. - he says you realize there is only 60 players drafted in two rounds - -so these guys declaring and then going un drafted. - - Saying you realize how much so and so how much more a particular team would of been if these guys would of came back for one more year.

Something to think about - - now you know it - -and I know it but how beneficial would it be for Devon to come back yet another year? - It's not going to happen BUT would be a lot more beneficial for him cause he has not taken that step so far this season to declare. but chances are he will declare go un drafted and lose his final two years of eligibility in College and waste the talent he does have, - again look how many is declaring and how many get drafted - -not good ods. -- ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Dotson will probably leave after this season, and will - wait for it,,,, wait for it - be an NBA bust. He should stay in school and graduate. I'm not saying that he is a terrible player, but he is not an NBA one either.

Marco said:

jayballer73 said:

I think Seth Greenburg making a pretty good point. He was talking at half time during the West Virginia and Oklahoma State game.

He was talking about how there is no dominant take over guy this year in College basketball. - -Talking about all these under class men declaring for the NBA.

Last 3 years 64 - - 79 - - 84 underclassmen declaring for the NBA. - he says you realize there is only 60 players drafted in two rounds - -so these guys declaring and then going un drafted. - - Saying you realize how much so and so how much more a particular team would of been if these guys would of came back for one more year.

Something to think about - - now you know it - -and I know it but how beneficial would it be for Devon to come back yet another year? - It's not going to happen BUT would be a lot more beneficial for him cause he has not taken that step so far this season to declare. but chances are he will declare go un drafted and lose his final two years of eligibility in College and waste the talent he does have, - again look how many is declaring and how many get drafted - -not good ods. -- ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Dotson will probably leave after this season, and will - wait for it,,,, wait for it - be an NBA bust. He should stay in school and graduate.

YA, numbers don't lie and less he picks up his games , he has area's where he just has to get better he will go un drafted big mistake could help him coming back but we all know that's not happening. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

He has nothing to gain by coming back to Kansas.

BShark said:

He has nothing to gain by coming back to Kansas.

You're right, not if wanting to build draft stock. Will he be drafted? Yes. Will he be in the league? Not for long. I think he has actually hurt his stock by coming back this year. He doesn't have an NBA game.

And Then there is Devonte graham!

BShark said:

He has nothing to gain by coming back to Kansas.

maybe - -but he sure the hell has got ALOT to lose by leaving - -we will not go drafted at THIS point if he doesn't get it together. - he has not improved, if anything he has regressed - I mean it's no sweat of my butt just bringing up what Seth was talking about. - -You figure the number of underclassmen declaring and then going un-drafted - - Devon right now is no better then so many of these others.

I mean we all know he isn't coming back - big reason we have these other people , we already knew that before the season began, just feel sorry for the kid because he is just not making the steps that the NBA is looking for from him at this point.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

And Then there is Devonte graham!

he IS NOT a Devonte Graham

You can develop outside of college. His future is in pro basketball, NBA or not.

He has absolutely not regressed. That's wild talk. Does he have flaws of course he does. Mainly his jumper but he is better this year while taking on more offensive responsibility.

BShark said:

He has absolutely not regressed. That's wild talk.

I didn't say that he regressed, but he hasn't improved either. Therefore, he has hurt his stock.

jayballer73 said:

BShark said:

He has nothing to gain by coming back to Kansas.

maybe - -but he sure the hell has got ALOT to lose by leaving - -we will not go drafted at THIS point if he doesn't get it together. - he has not improved, if anything he has regressed - I mean it's no sweat of my butt just bringing up what Seth was talking about. - -You figure the number of underclassmen declaring and then going un-drafted - - Devon right now is no better then so many of these others.

I mean we all know he isn't coming back - big reason we have these other people , we already knew that before the season began, just feel sorry for the kid because he is just not making the steps that the NBA is looking for from him at this point.

I don't get it either, @jayballer73. There are only so many professional spots available, even overseas where in many countries there are limits on the number of foreign players that each team can have.

@Marco referring to jayballers line. Dotson not in terms of game but draft situation reminds me of Selden. I think he is a similar pick regardless of what year he leaves. It's all about when he wants to start the pro grind. He does seem to genuinely love KU and is friends with Jalen. If we have a prayer at him returning those are good factors. I still think he is gone though.

BShark said:

You can develop outside of college. His future is in pro basketball, NBA or not.

do you think he wants the - - NBA - - -or the NOT? - - oversea's game is there ANYTIME if it's there , why rush? - -huge risk but hey it's his choice ,good for him

@jayballer73 didn’t say that

@jayballer73 everyone wants the NBA usually. People want to be the best at their craft. The incentive to leave after this year is to start getting paid (paid more?).

BShark said:

He has absolutely not regressed. That's wild talk. Does he have flaws of course he does. Mainly his jumper but he is better this year while taking on more offensive responsibility.

how his he better? -- his outside J has not improved , his 3 pt shooting sucks - -and he is still loose with the ball, how is that improving if your wanting to play in the NBA ?

He can drive the ball, BUT there are dozens that can drive the ball in the NBA, his quickness in /College will be matched in the NBA - -so tell me where has he made the improvement that the NBA told him he needed to improve on, bottom line is he hasn't

BShark said:

@jayballer73 everyone wants the NBA usually. People want to be the best at their craft. The incentive to leave after this year is to start getting paid (paid more?).

did you happen to see where I said it was his choice ? - again not any sweat to me - -simply stating in the 1st place about Seth talking about underclassmen declaring and then going un drafted

@jayballer73 you also said he has a lot to lose by leaving which is simply not true. He has nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Staying would honestly be foolish.

BShark said:

@jayballer73 you also said he has a lot to lose by leaving which is simply not true. He has nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Staying would honestly be foolish.

well ya actually he does - -a really good chance from being drafted to not being drafted - - Have a good night

BShark said:

@jayballer73 you also said he has a lot to lose by leaving which is simply not true. He has nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Staying would honestly be foolish.

Dotson is no longer projected to be drafted in 2020. I don't think he's grown a lot from last season and he would be very well served to return for his junior season at this point to improve his shooting.

His draft stock will soar just like checks notes undrafted Selden, Ellis plus second round picks Mason, Graham and Svi.

@Texas-Hawk-10 even if he is undraftable but wants to go pro now to work on his craft more frequently while getting paid I think that is a solid decision.

jayballer73 said:

Crimsonorblue22 said:

And Then there is Devonte graham!

he IS NOT a Devonte Graham

Not yet. Devonte wasn't Devonte in his second year. Couldn't Dot improve similarly with another 2.5 seasons of seasoning?

tundrahok said:

jayballer73 said:

Crimsonorblue22 said:

And Then there is Devonte graham!

he IS NOT a Devonte Graham

Not yet. Devonte wasn't Devonte in his second year. Couldn't Dot improve similarly with another 2.5 seasons of seasoning?

exactly the reason that it would be beneficial for him to come back. Just got to improve to enhance his chances for the NBA

BShark said:

He has absolutely not regressed. That's wild talk. Does he have flaws of course he does. Mainly his jumper but he is better this year while taking on more offensive responsibility.

Stats comparison:

!745d6cfd-ba2d-42b7-8b49-b16bfc2c85ea-image.png ↗

Dot's scoring is up, while shooting % is down, especially from 3. Assists and steals both up a fair bit.

BShark said:

@Texas-Hawk-10 even if he is undraftable but wants to go pro now to work on his craft more frequently while getting paid I think that is a solid decision.

Unless Dotson landed in a top foreign league, he wouldn't be making enough to justify leaving early.

I never try to speak for Self, but it seems he has thought Devon will be gone after this year and he felt that right after Devon decided to return.

We have been experiencing chinks in Devon's armor... and it mostly relates to his esteem. I think he will have a much easier path to making it in the league if he goes in there with a 100% killer mentality, robust with confidence. Anything short of that and there are dozens of quality, speedy ball handlers who are several inches taller.

Devon needs to take a page from VanVleet. Go in the league and start beating players down like you own them. Truly, it is the size of the fight in the dog instead of the size of the dog in the fight. Devon doesn't have the girth of a VanVleet... but he is quicker. So he better stay quicker and learn to fight like a thicker dog. No Boys Allowed!

@tundrahok that's what I meant, thx. Look what 4 yrs did to DG! I've heard that mentioned during his games too.

@benshawks08

I'm still on the fence with Dave at the next level but as with any Hawk I'm always hoping they make it. I saw him in person a few weeks ago against UMKC and he was terrific but I need to see him have those games against Power 5 teams. He will flash like that rebound & dunk in the WVU game but consistency has still been an issue with him when we face good teams.

Don't get me wrong I'm a big fan of his and he'll be here 4 years so next year and the following year he will have the opportunity to prove what kind of professional career he might have. His improved shooting touch helps him tremendously. That should continue to be a point of emphasis for him as he gets older. If he could expand his range out to the 3 point line and show that range later in his career that could really give him some looks from the NBA. I think he can lose another 5-10 pounds without sacrificing much, he's a big boy out there but I do think his ability to defend and his athleticism has another level he can get to carrying a little bit less weight. He's made a remarkable transformation of his body since High School and I think he'll continue to refine his body with the new S&C coach.

Dotson leads the Big-12 in scoring.

Leads the Big-12 in FT's (made and attempts)

Top 5 in assists (5th) and steals (2nd) per game.

His usage is up over 7% from last year, his PER is up 7 points from last season and he's playing 35 minutes a night (3rd most in the league).

Has he improved enough to be a 1st round pick? Unlikely at this point. A 40% 3 point shot would maybe entice some teams at the bottom of the 1st but at his size his ceiling was always limited.

We'll welcome him back with open arms if he did decide to stay another year. He'd be the best player in College Basketball next season.

He might end up 1st team All Big-12, Big-12 POY, 1st team All American and potentially lead this team to a National Championship. What will be said if all that happens?

BeddieKU23 said:

Dotson leads the Big-12 in scoring.

Leads the Big-12 in FT's (made and attempts)

Top 5 in assists (5th) and steals (2nd) per game.

His usage is up over 7% from last year, his PER is up 7 points from last season and he's playing 35 minutes a night (3rd most in the league).

Has he improved enough to be a 1st round pick? Unlikely at this point. A 40% 3 point shot would maybe entice some teams at the bottom of the 1st but at his size his ceiling was always limited.

We'll welcome him back with open arms if he did decide to stay another year. He'd be the best player in College Basketball next season.

He might end up 1st team All Big-12, Big-12 POY, 1st team All American and potentially lead this team to a National Championship. What will be said if all that happens?

that will mean he has picked his game up from where it is at right now.

All of what you say sounds good - -BUT none of what you said has anything to do with what the NBA scouts told him he needed to work and improve on. - -His outside J is still very suspect at best , he can't create his own shot from the outside. - If you notice when he shoots his three it's sit up to where he is wide open and he has time to set his feet, even then look at his 3 point %. - -The NBA has told him he has to get better with his outside J , he was told he needed to work on taking care of the ball - -he hasn't improved there. He can't just try and believe he is going to make a living on driving the ball in the NBA as has been mention there are many many players just as quick in the NBA as Devon.

As Far as the things you mentioned above, Frank Mason accomplished all those things - -look where he is at. - Nothing of much at this point, - Devon is NOT improved in the things that he was told he needed to do if he wanted to succeed and have a meaningful path to the NBA

@jayballer73

There isn't a one size fits all answer when it comes to the NBA. If his plan is to leave after the season, best of luck to the young man.

Dotson is struggling shooting the 3, most of College Basketball is struggling adjusting to the new line. He's also playing 35 minutes a game and defending at a high level.

Agbaji is struggling to shoot the 3 just as much as Dotson is recently. I believe he's 4-19 in the last 5 games.

Despite the shooting numbers being lower Dotson's Efficiency is way up this season from a year ago. Kenpom has him as one of the 5 best players in all of College Basketball.

Did you know that Udoka Azubuike has just as many turnovers as Devon Dotson in over 100 less minutes of playing time?

Did Frank and Devonte help themselves or hurt themselves by staying at KU for 4 years? I do not believe they would have been better off by leaving after their Soph. or Jr. year. And plus they got a diploma. Devon is in the same situation at this time in his life. Also, think how many assist he could have by passing to Tyon and Bryce, instead of his receivers now.

There is an easy resolution here for Devon. He should go bring us home a trophy in April to reassure this year is the best time for him to move on to the league. That will solve any question on if he is ready.

What has to be considered with Devon and whether he should go.... a big part of his game is like Frank Mason... finishing at the hole. That takes a toll on his body and Devon isn't built as thick as Frank. I wonder how many times a game Devon ends a play on the floor? It would be interesting to get a "floor count" on Devon every game. That would give us additional perspective concerning his risk.

Let's say Devon stays all 4 years and continues to increase his aggression to the hole. Won't he have a good chance of getting hurt?

@BeddieKU23 Great information. Really puts it all in perspective. Look, I don't get upset at my TV anymore. Tyshawn Taylor is not our point guard (he had his shining moment, though, second half of his senior season). All is good. Mason, Graham, Dotson. Never a complaint from me. I just think to myself, "remember TT." Like a roller coaster.

@Big-Clyde52 Great question -- they definitely helped themselves. Without one doubt in my mind.

BeddieKU23 said:

@jayballer73

There isn't a one size fits all answer when it comes to the NBA. If his plan is to leave after the season, best of luck to the young man.

Dotson is struggling shooting the 3, most of College Basketball is struggling adjusting to the new line. He's also playing 35 minutes a game and defending at a high level.

Agbaji is struggling to shoot the 3 just as much as Dotson is recently. I believe he's 4-19 in the last 5 games.

Despite the shooting numbers being lower Dotson's Efficiency is way up this season from a year ago. Kenpom has him as one of the 5 best players in all of College Basketball.

Did you know that Udoka Azubuike has just as many turnovers as Devon Dotson in over 100 less minutes of playing time?

Understand. - - I also understand that Doke is ALSO not destined for the NBA. - -had this discussion multiple times, Doke is a relic of NBA past - -really good imposing college player, just doesn't translate to NBA. your big's in the Modern NBA can step out like JO Jo and others be able to hit that 15-17 foot jumper, big's who can defend out on the floor - - open space. - The NBA just doesn't have room for guys that that all they do is Dunk - doesn't work in the NBA. - -Doke is another guy that will not be drafted, we have seen better players then Doke, players more mobile that have went un-drafted. - -Doke future is oversea's - players like him are now a thing of the past in the NBA - you have to have some kind of offense other then /Dunks

Big Clyde52 said:

Did Frank and Devonte help themselves or hurt themselves by staying at KU for 4 years? I do not believe they would have been better off by leaving after their Soph. or Jr. year. And plus they got a diploma. Devon is in the same situation at this time in his life. Also, think how many assist he could have by passing to Tyon and Bryce, instead of his receivers now.

Agree , you have some here that say he has nothing to gain , that coming back would be silly. - - Like you said , maybe he won't improve by coming back - -but he can continue to work on his degree while coming back for another year. Basketball doesn't last forever.

You will have those that will try and say well that he can always come back and get his degree later. -That doesn't work , in reality I bet you the one's who never come back and get their degree compared to the one's that do is far greater, that THEY DON'T. - Devon has a lot to gain , also gives him the chance to continue to just be that young College kid.

Be able to gain the experience of College before he enters the work field. - -Believe it or not NBA is a job just like any other job , only he is getting to do what he likes to do at that time. He still has a chance to improve his game -- maybe /possibly get to a point where he can get drafted. - I agree with you 100 % Big Clyde

drgnslayr said:

There is an easy resolution here for Devon. He should go bring us home a trophy in April to reassure this year is the best time for him to move on to the league. That will solve any question on if he is ready.

What has to be considered with Devon and whether he should go.... a big part of his game is like Frank Mason... finishing at the hole. That takes a toll on his body and Devon isn't built as thick as Frank. I wonder how many times a game Devon ends a play on the floor? It would be interesting to get a "floor count" on Devon every game. That would give us additional perspective concerning his risk.

Let's say Devon stays all 4 years and continues to increase his aggression to the hole. Won't he have a good chance of getting hurt?

ya has that chance. -About as good a chance of getting hurt in staying 4 years- just like about the same chance of getting hurt the 1st time he takes or tries to take it to the hole and Devon not being very thick as you say and get hurt - maybe hurt bad enough to end his brief NBA career. - -Could you imagine him going to the hole with his frame as you say and Jo Jo coming down on him? -- Karl Anthony Towns coming down on him - - Lebron coming down on him? - -that could be a very ugly picture. - Or any big that from the NBA , that's got that NBA body - - -not good

@jayballer73

I wouldn't count out Doke just yet. Although I think its a longshot I can see him making a G-League team and someone taking a chance on developing him. You can't teach his size. He's only 20 years old. Not saying he'll be drafted but I do think he'll get a look or two from someone intrigued with him.

BeddieKU23 said:

@jayballer73

I wouldn't count out Doke just yet. Although I think its a longshot I can see him making a G-League team and someone taking a chance on developing him. You can't teach his size. He's only 20 years old. Not saying he'll be drafted but I do think he'll get a look or two from someone intrigued with him.

Agreed. He might be able to find some team that might be willing , I just don't believe he will be that fit, yet on the other hand yes he does have his size and rebounds well - -another question that comes into play would be stamina - -can he maintain the NBA pace up and down the floor - just seems like a long shot. - -Never say never I reckon

I’d bet money Doke gets drafted, size isn’t coachable and he’s slimmed down making him quicker, better at shot blocking. He goes early in the second round.

jayballer73 said:

BeddieKU23 said:

@jayballer73

I wouldn't count out Doke just yet. Although I think its a longshot I can see him making a G-League team and someone taking a chance on developing him. You can't teach his size. He's only 20 years old. Not saying he'll be drafted but I do think he'll get a look or two from someone intrigued with him.

Agreed. He might be able to find some team that might be willing , I just don't believe he will be that fit, yet on the other hand yes he does have his size and rebounds well - -another question that comes into play would be stamina - -can he maintain the NBA pace up and down the floor - just seems like a long shot. - -Never say never I reckon

I can't imagine he'll become a starter in the NBA by any means which would require him to be asked to play big minutes. I don't see that for him. He's just so big and has a freakish wingspan that physically and athletically he fits at the next level. I can see a team stashing him in the G-League and finding out what they can do to improve his skill level. I think since he's still young there is upside to taking a shot. Who knows I'm probably wrong here but I'm always optimistic a Jayhawk gets a shot. It's incredible seeing what Devonte is doing this year!

tundrahok said:

jayballer73 said:

Crimsonorblue22 said:

And Then there is Devonte graham!

he IS NOT a Devonte Graham

Not yet. Devonte wasn't Devonte in his second year. Couldn't Dot improve similarly with another 2.5 seasons of seasoning?

He doesn't have the size or game of Devonte, and never will.

BeddieKU23 said:

@jayballer73

I wouldn't count out Doke just yet. Although I think its a longshot I can see him making a G-League team and someone taking a chance on developing him. You can't teach his size. He's only 20 years old. Not saying he'll be drafted but I do think he'll get a look or two from someone intrigued with him.

Dok is a great college player, and I hope that he gets his degree - he will not be an NBA player nor will Dotson. The players now on our roster who have a chance to be in the NBA : Agbaji, Enaruna, Braun and Harris.

@Marco Dot may be the quickest player in college basketball and possibly the quickest player self has ever had that's got to count for something

SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven't seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren't that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don't want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.

approxinfinity said:

@Marco Dot may be the quickest player in college basketball and possibly the quickest player self has ever had that's got to count for something

quick is good, BUT your transiting from College, that quickness will help some but not like College. - -LOT'S of quickness in the NBA. - -He has to develop a consistent J to improve his chances of making it. right now he doesn't have that

@Marco

Well neither may stick in the league but I'm going to remain optimistic.

I think there's little chance Dotson doesn't get drafted at least as a 2nd round pick. He's been holding steady as a 2nd rounder since last year and the most recent update from ESPN (who have guys plugged into the league/GM's) had him going 51st. He's the leading scorer at Kansas. The last two PG's that led their team in scoring both got drafted in the 2nd round (Mason, Graham). A lot of season left for him to elevate his profile.

BShark said:

SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven't seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren't that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don't want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.

That's saying a lot given the Sr year Mason had but its certainly possible given how advanced his role is compared to where Frank/Devonte were at this time. If he really did elevate his jump shot and play-making to the next level there's no reason to think he wouldn't be a rockstar. Given how much Frank/Devonte improved Jr/Sr year under this staff its not out of the question.

Imagine Jr Dotson, Sr Garrett, Jr Agbaji, Soph Braun, Jr McCormack in the starting 5.. WoW

BeddieKU23 said:

BShark said:

SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven't seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren't that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don't want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.

That's saying a lot given the Sr year Mason had but its certainly possible given how advanced his role is compared to where Frank/Devonte were at this time. If he really did elevate his jump shot and play-making to the next level there's no reason to think he wouldn't be a rockstar. Given how much Frank/Devonte improved Jr/Sr year under this staff its not out of the question.

Imagine Jr Dotson, Sr Garrett, Jr Agbaji, Soph Braun, Jr McCormack in the starting 5.. WoW

How could we keep Bryce out of that lineup? - -I think he will be a starter from day one

BeddieKU23 said:

@Marco

Well neither may stick in the league but I'm going to remain optimistic.

I think there's little chance Dotson doesn't get drafted at least as a 2nd round pick. He's been holding steady as a 2nd rounder since last year and the most recent update from ESPN (who have guys plugged into the league/GM's) had him going 51st. He's the leading scorer at Kansas. The last two PG's that led their team in scoring both got drafted in the 2nd round (Mason, Graham). A lot of season left for him to elevate his profile.

I knew that Graham given the right circumstances - Charlotte is perfect, considering he is from North Carolina and they traded Kemba - could make it in the league, and Mason still can as well. I think that the Knicks, for example, could use a Frank Mason.

BeddieKU23 said:

BShark said:

SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven't seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren't that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don't want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.

That's saying a lot given the Sr year Mason had but its certainly possible given how advanced his role is compared to where Frank/Devonte were at this time. If he really did elevate his jump shot and play-making to the next level there's no reason to think he wouldn't be a rockstar. Given how much Frank/Devonte improved Jr/Sr year under this staff its not out of the question.

Imagine Jr Dotson, Sr Garrett, Jr Agbaji, Soph Braun, Jr McCormack in the starting 5.. WoW

Not saying you are but for anyone wondering or thinking I'm super far off just directly compare Dotson this year to Frank's SR year on sports reference. Now obviously Dotson could plateau and this is 99% a moot point anyway but it's fun to think about.

Like @jayballer73 I don't think Bryce is a bench player. Even in this situation I think Braun still comes off the bench.

Garrett Thompson Agbaji Braun Dave is still very good. :)

Tristan, Jalen, Mitch, Tyon and Harris off the bench too... That leaves a damn good player as the 10th guy aka never playing.

BShark said:

BeddieKU23 said:

BShark said:

SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven't seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren't that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don't want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.

That's saying a lot given the Sr year Mason had but its certainly possible given how advanced his role is compared to where Frank/Devonte were at this time. If he really did elevate his jump shot and play-making to the next level there's no reason to think he wouldn't be a rockstar. Given how much Frank/Devonte improved Jr/Sr year under this staff its not out of the question.

Imagine Jr Dotson, Sr Garrett, Jr Agbaji, Soph Braun, Jr McCormack in the starting 5.. WoW

Not saying you are but for anyone wondering or thinking I'm super far off just directly compare Dotson this year to Frank's SR year on sports reference. Now obviously Dotson could plateau and this is 99% a moot point anyway but it's fun to think about.

Like @jayballer73 I don't think Bryce is a bench player. Even in this situation I think Braun still comes off the bench.I

Garrett Thompson Agbaji Braun Dave is still very good. :)

That lineup is great, and don't discount the other players that we have signed. You missed one though, Enaruna. He is going to be a stud.

@Marco Tyon is a dog. The other two never see the floor for KU next year, maybe ever but both are fine to have signed.

BShark said:

@Marco Tyon is a dog. The other two never see the floor for KU next year, maybe ever but both are fine to have signed.

I'm with you on Tyon, disagree on Muscadin though.

jayballer73 said:

BeddieKU23 said:

BShark said:

SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven't seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren't that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don't want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.

That's saying a lot given the Sr year Mason had but its certainly possible given how advanced his role is compared to where Frank/Devonte were at this time. If he really did elevate his jump shot and play-making to the next level there's no reason to think he wouldn't be a rockstar. Given how much Frank/Devonte improved Jr/Sr year under this staff its not out of the question.

Imagine Jr Dotson, Sr Garrett, Jr Agbaji, Soph Braun, Jr McCormack in the starting 5.. WoW

How could we keep Bryce out of that lineup? - -I think he will be a starter from day one

Probably starts because its unlikely that 5 I listed above will be reality but he would make a great 6th man

@BShark

Anything is possible. I think he'd go down as one of the best if he did stay all 4 years. He'd have a chance at the top 5 in points scored and numerous awards that would get his name in the rafters. It's fun to dream what could be.

Maybe it was just on off day for Devon against WV, but I was really surprised to see him accept the shooter's role in the second half and be content to let someone else handle the point guard duties. When Marcus or someone else was getting KU into its offense, I kept looking for Devon and saw he was just lurking on the perimeter, like Vick last year. I was disappointed not to see the dog come out for Devon. But, perhaps coach didn't give him the chance to operate the point in the second half.

stoptheflop said:

Maybe it was just on off day for Devon against WV, but I was really surprised to see him accept the shooter's role in the second half and be content to let someone else handle the point guard duties. When Marcus or someone else was getting KU into its offense, I kept looking for Devon and saw he was just lurking on the perimeter, like Vick last year. I was disappointed not to see the dog come out for Devon. But, perhaps coach didn't give him the chance to operate the point in the second half.

Firmly believe this was planned by Bill.

Doke will not play in the NBA unless some team tries to go back to the old 90s style of 2 traditional lane clogging bigs. He is too awkward to be a rim runner on the pick and roll and is not a threat of a pick and pop. On top of that, he has no ability to guard outside of 5'. NBA is a spread out pick and roll and 3 point shooting league now.

BigBad said:

Doke will not play in the NBA unless some team tries to go back to the old 90s style of 2 traditional lane clogging bigs. He is too awkward to be a rim runner on the pick and roll and is not a threat of a pick and pop. On top of that, he has no ability to guard outside of 5'. NBA is a spread out pick and roll and 3 point shooting league now.

pretty much what I've been saying. - -Doke is just out dated in the NBA.- -many more much more fluid big's that can space the floor, has some game. - -Doke has no game other then being big and dunk. In todays NBA that just does not fit.

Don't get me wrong , I love the guy , couldn't be happier that we have him. Pretty good College player but afraid just not Todays NBA

Doke will have a long pro career...

Overseas.

Just to keep on the optimistic train here if your a NBA scout that evaluated Doke during the spring what were the things you would have wanted to see him improve this season. Let's list a few.

1. Rebounding

2. Rim Protection

3. Guarding the perimeter/in space

4. Ability to play extended Minutes

5. Improved body/finish a season healthy

6. Shooting, extended range, FT's.

7. Post Game

Now 13 games in..

1. Rebounding- Averaging a career best 8.9 boards. In a stretch where he's averaging 11 per game.

2. Rim Protection- Averaging a career best 2.2 blocks per game. Just had a career best 6 blocks against WVU.

3. Guarding the Perimeter- Still a major weakness

4. Playing Extended Minutes- Averaging a career best 26.8 minutes per game.

5. Improved Body/staying healthy- Shed over 40 pounds coming into the season. So far so good on his health.

6. Shooting- Major weakness. No range, still can't shoot FT's.

7. Post Game- Still raw, probably the best Self has ever had at establishing position, driving his man up the paint and establishing where he wants to be to get his angles and Dunks.

Besides his obvious weaknesses of Shooting from anywhere outside 4 feet and being able to guard bigs out to the perimeter he's improved everywhere else. The guy is going to break the NCAA record for FG% in a season and in a career. Analytically I'm wondering if a team is going to be intrigued by how effective he is around the basket. He's making 87% of his shots at the rim. That's not just above average, its borderline insane. I can see him being a backup C in the league somewhere, not heavy minutes but someone that gets in here and there. The NBA is a long season and guys get chances due to injuries and what not. He's not going to magically stop dunking the ball on people in the league. Just some thoughts

BShark said:

Doke will have a long pro career...

Overseas.

BeddieKU23 said:

Just to keep on the optimistic train here if your a NBA scout that evaluated Doke during the spring what were the things you would have wanted to see him improve this season. Let's list a few.

1. Rebounding

2. Rim Protection

3. Guarding the perimeter/in space

4. Ability to play extended Minutes

5. Improved body/finish a season healthy

6. Shooting, extended range, FT's.

7. Post Game

Now 13 games in..

1. Rebounding- Averaging a career best 8.9 boards. In a stretch where he's averaging 11 per game.

2. Rim Protection- Averaging a career best 2.2 blocks per game. Just had a career best 6 blocks against WVU.

3. Guarding the Perimeter- Still a major weakness

4. Playing Extended Minutes- Averaging a career best 26.8 minutes per game.

5. Improved Body/staying healthy- Shed over 40 pounds coming into the season. So far so good on his health.

6. Shooting- Major weakness. No range, still can't shoot FT's.

7. Post Game- Still raw, probably the best Self has ever had at establishing position, driving his man up the court and establishing where he wants to be to get his angles and Dunks.

Besides his obvious weaknesses of Shooting from anywhere outside 4 feet and being able to guard bigs out to the perimeter he's improved everywhere else. The guy is going to break the NCAA record for FG% in a season and in a career. Analytically I'm wondering if a team is going to be intrigued by how effective he is around the basket. He's making 87% of his shots at the rim. That's not just above average, its borderline insane. I can see him being a backup C in the league somewhere, not heavy minutes but someone that gets in here and there. The NBA is a long season and guys get chances due to injuries and what not. He's not going to magically stop dunking the ball on people in the league. Just some thoughts

somebody could takethat chance - - chances are like you say maybe developmental league - -end up being able some spot minutes.

Kind of hard to not have that kindof Pct when your doing nothing but dunk - -then again he isn't going to be able to bully guys around for dunk after dunk in the NBA

Dok would’ve dominated Ostertag. He’s just in the wrong era for his current skill set.

ESPN has their latest Mock Draft update.

40 Ochai Agbaji - down from mid 30's he was in December.

43 Devon Dotson- up 8 spots from 51, from same December update.

97 Udoka Azubuike- Joins the Top 100 after being absent in all other updates.

Others in Big-12

Halliburton #4

Ramsey #25

Butler #46

Conditt #73

Likekele #75

Tshiebwe #76 (seems low)

Yeah, kudos to ESPN for the #4 pick. hehehe

@BeddieKU23 enjoyed your exposition on Doke. I agree that his effectiveness in the paint is freakish enough that he's worthy of his own line of statistical reasoning that defies conventional 3 > 2 per possession logic. However that is only the case if he shoots FTs well. It's the last piece to being extremely good at being a 2 point conversion expert. I don't know the magic number in FT%.

But consider 70% means he makes both FTs 49% of the time. That's my guess. 70%. He can obviously finish through contact as well.

BeddieKU23 said:

Just to keep on the optimistic train here if your a NBA scout that evaluated Doke during the spring what were the things you would have wanted to see him improve this season. Let's list a few.

1. Rebounding

2. Rim Protection

3. Guarding the perimeter/in space

4. Ability to play extended Minutes

5. Improved body/finish a season healthy

6. Shooting, extended range, FT's.

7. Post Game

Now 13 games in..

1. Rebounding- Averaging a career best 8.9 boards. In a stretch where he's averaging 11 per game.

2. Rim Protection- Averaging a career best 2.2 blocks per game. Just had a career best 6 blocks against WVU.

3. Guarding the Perimeter- Still a major weakness

4. Playing Extended Minutes- Averaging a career best 26.8 minutes per game.

5. Improved Body/staying healthy- Shed over 40 pounds coming into the season. So far so good on his health.

6. Shooting- Major weakness. No range, still can't shoot FT's.

7. Post Game- Still raw, probably the best Self has ever had at establishing position, driving his man up the paint and establishing where he wants to be to get his angles and Dunks.

Besides his obvious weaknesses of Shooting from anywhere outside 4 feet and being able to guard bigs out to the perimeter he's improved everywhere else. The guy is going to break the NCAA record for FG% in a season and in a career. Analytically I'm wondering if a team is going to be intrigued by how effective he is around the basket. He's making 87% of his shots at the rim. That's not just above average, its borderline insane. I can see him being a backup C in the league somewhere, not heavy minutes but someone that gets in here and there. The NBA is a long season and guys get chances due to injuries and what not. He's not going to magically stop dunking the ball on people in the league. Just some thoughts

I just worry that those two big weaknesses make him almost unplayable in the NBA. Let's just compare to Joel Embiid (someone he'd likely be guarding at the 5 position). Embiid wasn't canning threes at KU but his shooting form and progression showed potential to improve his range. Doke just hasn't shown ANY of that.

I wonder if Doke is almost hampered by his own success. He's so good at bullying people, getting position, and scoring in close at this level that it's hard for him to even develop other skills. For KU this year, why would he do anything else? Dunk, dunk, baby hook, dunk, hook, GAME! What is even more concerning is most of those dunks and easy buckets are coming off lobs and passes over the top as he moves his man up the lane. He maybe has one or two times a game where we throw it to him in the post, he makes a move and scores, and when that happens if we are honest, it isn't all that pretty most of the time. WV just leaned on his left shoulder and he didn't have a counter.

Real question (meaning it's a question I don't have a good answer to): Would Doke have been better off in a different program that doesn't focus so much on angles and team concepts to get easy buckets and instead gave him more license to develop individual skills?

Another question: Would it help Doke's stock if once every game he took a shot from the top of the key? I assume he would miss most of them, but just knowing he would get one a game, would that skill develop? If he made one or two could it get put on a highlight real and help his stock? Would a scout see it and think, "we can make that work"?

approxinfinity said:

@BeddieKU23 enjoyed your exposition on Doke. I agree that his effectiveness in the paint is freakish enough that he's worthy of his own line of statistical reasoning that defies conventional 3 > 2 per possession logic. However that is only the case if he shoots FTs well. It's the last piece to being extremely good at being a 2 point conversion expert. I don't know the magic number in FT%.

But consider 70% means he makes both FTs 49% of the time. That's my guess. 70%. He can obviously finish through contact as well.

I hadn't considered that aspect so thanks for including it. I know it's probably a small chance he gets a chance at the NBA. I'll probably look silly for being a homer here. He'll basically be a 20 year old prospect with almost 2 1/4 seasons of experience under his belt (but 4 years removed from HS). I just keep thinking someone is going to see a prospect that still has some upside to develop given how little he's actually played and had the time to fine-tune his game. He'll test well at his position (height, wingspan, body fat) which accounts for something. I know he's in the wrong era for his brand of ball. Holding out hope he catches on with a team in the Summer League and wiggles his way into a 2-way contract.

@BeddieKU23 Just so we are clear, I hope that too! Love the kid! He's a blast to watch and you can see every play how much he cares and tries.

Some players ruin their game by trying to round it out instead of becoming elite at the one good thing they do. Dok is elite around the bucket. If he starts shooting jumpers his effectiveness will decline - that’s exactly what Wilt’s opponents wanted (shooting instead of dunking). The best thing Dok could do is work on free throws, since that’s his biggest limiting factor within his current skill set.

BeddieKU23 said:

ESPN has their latest Mock Draft update.

40 Ochai Agbaji - down from mid 30's he was in December.

43 Devon Dotson- up 8 spots from 51, from same December update.

97 Udoka Azubuike- Joins the Top 100 after being absent in all other updates.

Others in Big-12

Halliburton #4

Ramsey #25

Butler #46

Conditt #73

Likekele #75

Tshiebwe #76 (seems low)

WOW , isn't that a LITTLE HIGH for Halliburton ? - 4 ? - -I mean he a good player but dam seems a little much

@jayballer73

The game against KU was not indicative of how good he is. His size at the position, his passing and shooting ability are all why he is that high on boards. He is definitely nursing an injury right now. KU had an excellent game plan against him

It's not high for Haliburton. He's a prototypical NBA guard. He's gonna be in the league a looooong time.

BeddieKU23 said:

@jayballer73

The game against KU was not indicative of how good he is. His size at the position, his passing and shooting ability are all why he is that high on boards. He is definitely nursing an injury right now. KU had an excellent game plan against him

Oh I know he is good, wasn't questioning his game against KU. - -I just think there is others that could probably fit that spot. - -I'm impressed BUT just not THAT impressed

@benshawks08

Everything you said probably will keep him out of the league. His weaknesses are not easily fixed, if they can be at all.

I know the NBA still has bigs in the league that are similar to him. If KU has a season we all hope and plays a key role in that success maybe he gets some attention from that. 4 guys from last yrs championship game got drafted. The last impression scouts get in that setting can be impactful. I know I'm being extremely optimistic here. I just think he is someone being undervalued for having an elite skill, he is every bit 7 ft and his wingspan will be one of the longest in the draft. We often talk of KU players not having the size they covet, well Doke is all that. Just lacks the skill. Will be interesting to see

@jayballer73

It's a weak draft as it stands. Probably has something to do with him being that high.

BeddieKU23 said:

@jayballer73

It's a weak draft as it stands. Probably has something to do with him being that high.

TURRIBLE DRAFT.

BShark said:

It's not high for Haliburton. He's a prototypical NBA guard. He's gonna be in the league a looooong time.

long time - - small version of a Ben Simmons type ?

Concerning Doke and the league....

His selling points will have to be:

1. He can run up and down and not die of exhaustion
2. He can score at the rim at a 80%+ clip and attempts to score when isolated
3. He can hit 70% FTs
4. He can adequately guard the perimeter and the rim
5. He is an above average rebounder

If he checks these boxes he will find several NBA teams interested.

We have seen the league change and everyone is shooting the trey, including the super bigs.

Doke can change that perspective if he can be unstoppable at the rim because what many teams are realizing is having a big who can shoot the trey but is not competitive %-wise with the guards actually creates a liability.

Having a center who is unstoppable in the post while isolated can force teams to try to help the post defender, hence is helping "spread the floor" by forcing defenses to mush in.

If Doke can also learn to be a better all around defender, the league always needs guys who can defend. Not every shot is a trey.

@jayballer73 Much better shooter than Simmons. 44% trey ball on the year, just didn't look like it against KU.

Updated for 2-17-20

Ochai Agbaji #51 -Down 11 spots

Devon Dotson #47- Down 4 spots

Udoka Azubuike#88 Overall - Up 9 spots

Others in the Big-12

Halliburton #6

Ramsey #25

Butler #45

Tshiebwe #77

Likekele #98

Bane #99