🏀 KuBuckets Archive

I don't get you guys? One topic already got shutdown over this subject. Let me make this simple for you guys. If you love and think the Big 12 is a great basketball conference then you're a homer. For you that think that KU winning 10 conferences is nothing and has no value. What are they supposed to do? Lose? You play the games and the conference that is in front of you. If you guys think KU should be in a different conference then lets talk, but they're not. So quit complaining about the Big 12.

You that point to UConn to prove your point merely prove the fact the winning a NCAA championship in Basketball takes some luck. As the last two Championships UConn won, they were far from a dominant team. They got hot and lucky at the same time. For instant take the last two teams that UConn won a championship with and let them play a 7 game series with KU. Still think UConn wins? Maybe somebody should call HCBS and tell him, hey bud winning conferences championships don't mean nothing. So by all means go up to Ames and get run off the court, or let the Wildcats just stomp you and rush the floor, and by all means head down to Texas and just get manhandled because conference championships don't mean nothing coach. Really?

Want the truth the reality is March Madness is the worst way to crown a champion, yet is the most entertaining. Meaning anybody can win it.

By the way I'm a KU and Big 12 homer. Love the conference. If the Big 12 crumbles and KU goes somewhere else I'll love that conference too. Doesn't mean I don't know basketball.

@justanotherfan There is a difference between missing the playoffs and not ever making the playoffs. Something Luck has never done. I know everybody is ready to crown the Cavs as champions, but lets hold on here for a second. Didn't they crown the great LeBron and the Heat as champions last year? Yet they got handed one of the worst beat downs I've seen in quite some time. Maybe LeBron, Irving and the new Love go on to do great things, however I'm not so sure. For one Irving and Love don't play great defense, not sure LeBron can change that. Two can Love be a team player and play second and sometimes 3rd fiddle when he's not getting his points and rebounds? Lot of a questions there. So lets wait to anoint them champions before they play a game.

One thing is for sure the Cavs won't be a dynasty as they pretty much traded away their future for a player that can't play defense and has never played in a playoff or meaningful game (college included), but hey he can shoot the long ball and rebound.

I can't believe how much Cleveland gave up to get Love. Come on even you fans that applaud teams trying to buy championships have to think 3 number ones is a bit much for Love? He doesn't even play defense. Everybody keeps calling him a superstar, yet it's funny the guy has never been to the playoffs. I understand a player can play for a sucky team, but superstars still make the playoffs. After all that's why we call them superstars?

I'm getting to be an old man these days. When I look back on my life a few lessons stick out as many of you old timers can attest to. One of them is a person that is good at something never has to debate he or she is good at something, everybody already knows. It's a given, a fact, and they will tell you other wise if believe the contrary.

Lets put it into prospected here. It would be like somebody coming on here saying Jaybate doesn't have the power to write or articulate is point of view with words. Jaybate wouldn't have to say a word or make a rebuttal. Most of us on here would laugh such person of the website.

This is why I find this topic funny. Cal found it necessary to call into a radio show and defend that he can coach. Really? None of the great Coaches would ever do this.

Ok so after reading and rereading some of these posts I've come to the conclusion this topic boils down to this. If KU would have won more championships then the Big 12 wouldn't be considered weak. After all it's not like the other conferences are sending a plethora of teams on to greatness. Yet because UConn had so much success in the Old Big East it is great, and because UK and the Gators trade punches and have won some championships the SEC is great. Even though just about any basketball analysts will tell you the SEC is weak in basketball and that UConn doesn't even hold a candle to KU.

How many times has KU been so close?? Yet because they play in weak dumb football Big 12 conference they weren't prepared? To win a championship it takes a little luck. The ball bounces this way or that way and KU has 5 or maybe six championships. Yet because the ball didn't bounce that way or this way and KU didn't win those extra championships the Big 12 sucks.

I'm a big basketball fan too. I've watched many of basketball games from many conferences. The ACC is entertaining to a point as they have there fair share of rummies. Yet before conference realignment what did they really have? Duke and NC? The old Big East was quite good yet they fouled so much you just wanted to rip your eyes out. Hell a team could be down 20 points and they would be fouling at the end of the game. Big 10 basketball is actually quite fun to watch even though they are like the Big 12 in that they really haven't had much success in the tournament. (After all Championships are all that matters). The Pac 12 is usually dominated by one team. It maybe a different team every year, but none the less the Pac 12 champion is already decided long before the season is over. The SEC please that's like watching paint dry. In fact if it wasn't for just rooting against UK or the Gators to lose, watching paint dry would be more entertaining.

The big 12 may suck in the eyes of some on here for basketball, but man to a true basketball fan they have some games that are fun to watch, and I'm not just talking about KU games.

When we throw around the word conference what do we mean?

In the last 20 years

The Sec has won 5 Florida won 2 and UK has won 3.

The Big 10 has one 1 Michigan St.

The PAC 12 has won 2 UCLA and Arizona each winning one.

The ACC has won 5 Duke won 2, NC won 2, and Maryland won one.

The old Big East has won 6 Connecticut was won 4, Louisville won one, and Syracuse won one.

The Big 12 has won one, KU.

If my numbers are correct it would seem to me that Basketball conferences do quite better in in the tournament and winning championships. I know some will try to claim the ACC is a football conference but I'm not buying it. They are a basketball first conference. The anomaly is the SEC which is a football conference has won 5 yet that was done by just two teams. KU is tied with Louisville all time at seventh with a mere 3 championship. Meaning friends that winning a championship is very indeed hard to do.

My opinion is I don't care what conference you're in, you win 10 consecutive championships that's quite a feat. People want to say the Big 12 is weak because KU has dominated it. Yet it doesn't diminish what KU has done. I feel we put to much precedence on how many championships a conference has won, in reality it's just a few teams in those conference that actually win a championship.

@icthawkfan316 I was thinking the same thing on protecting the rim. I just feel he's adjusting to the college game and this year might be that year. (hoping) Even HCBS has said the kid is going to be a load. Either way KU is going to be loaded down under.

@nuleafjhawk I'm afraid we live in the days of instant gratification. Todays generations are more than happy to root for players that weren't drafted, or teams that weren't built. As long as they win championships. Problem no matter what the sport there is only ONE Champion.

There is hope though. As you said look at any dynasty and the formula is the same they are built. :)

Landen Lucas is making some noise for Athletes in Action. Is this his break out year? Does he join Traylor as the first big men off the bench? or does Hunter beat him out? He showed some flashes last year, yet seemed to be still grasping the college game. Is this his year? I'm starting to think it just might be. Yet I'm just a KU homer, and I would love and need more level headed KU fans to confirm or deny my enthusiasm. ;)

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@jaybate-1.0 I'm with you. These are badass.

Bottom line.

I could never be a loyal fan for a team that tries to buy a championship. There is just nothing in it for me as a fan. I prefer rooting for players that have paid their dues. I can connect with them. They become my players.

FA's are nice and are necessary but let's face it the only reason they're playing for your team is because they got paid, and when the contract is up they'll be looking for the next big contract or team that gives them the best chance to win a championship. There is no Loyalty.

Trades are a little different in that the player may have no choice. So I as a fan give them the benefit of the doubt.

I guess what I'm saying is I want the player to care about the city, the state, and the organization as much I do. I have no desire to drop money buying jerseys and tickets to watch hired guns.

@jaybate-1.0 my friend your ability to capture the moment with mere words leaves me speechless. My friend your words have given me something I'm not sure I can repay. You have given me hope that the game I love that we love will indeed carry on. Thank you sir.

@justanotherfan You almost had me. Very good point of view. I'm not trying to dismiss the value of a championship to an organization or it's fans. Besides why play the game if the goal isn't to be the best? My point was that there is more to just winning championships to a players legacy. I feel I've presented a strong argument on this issue.

I'm a bit older than you so I do remember those Royals from the late 70's and early 80's. I'm here to tell you the 85 World Series win does not define the Royals. Yes it was indeed a crowning moment, but it didn't define Mister K's Royals. Year in and Year out the Royals were a team to be reckoned with. The beginning of each season was filled with great determination, enthusiasm, and expectations. You see people just didn't give away Royals tickets on those days. You considered yourself lucky to have tickets to a Royals game in those days. Keep in mind this was before the Royals won the World Serious in 85 and were crowned champions. Today every baseball fan can't wait for the Yankees and the Red Sox's to play each other. Well in those days it's was the Yankees and the Royals. Every time they took to the field is was almost mythical and magical. It was the big bad Yankees armed with deep history and plethora of Hall famers, versus the small time, Midwest no history, but would play and fight you anywhere, anytime. OH my friend there was bad blood in those days.

Those Royals teams weren't put together with FA's and trades, no sir they where drafted, paid their due's homegrown players. Those teams you could sink your teeth into, fall in love with. You felt their pain when they slumped, yet when they won it was like you won too. My friend this was all before the Royals won a championship in 85. You see going through the ups and downs connects the fans to a team. It creates a loyal fan base. It creates a legacy.

You look back into history and see the 85 World Series Championship and say that was the moment. However my friend the moment was getting to that 85 World Series and telling the world and the Yankees we are the champions.

Well that's how I remember it anyways. :)

I so wish I could agree with everyone, yet also disagree with everyone. I see the valid points on both side of the aisle. On one hand the NCAA wants to be there when a student athlete farts and savor the smell, yet on the other hand what will happen to college sports if they start paying student athletes? There are so many ifs, buts, and unanswered questions. I'm getting to be and old man and I know this once you let the cat out of the bag it's not going back in there. What happens today or tomorrow may seem small and no big deal, but these are just stepping stones. Where does it stop? When does it stop? I'm starting to believe this power five allegiance has something to do with it. Should we be happy KU has a chair at the table? or should we mourn that maybe college sports as we know it maybe be reaching the end of it's days?

We will mostly likely have the best starting five in the country. Having said that I if feel we really need Traylor, Conner and Greene to really take their game to the next level for this year to be the year. Either way I'm all in. ;)

@justanotherfan first I don't think the discussion changes on Love. (((he doesn't play defense))). If he is such a great player then why hasn't the Wolves even sniffed a playoff invite? There is more to being a great player than stuffing the stat book. Maybe it's just me but great players put their team on their back when they are tired and over matched and leads them to victory and greatness. Something Love has never done, but hey he spreads the floor and rebounds.

I understand your Love (no pun intended) for LeBron as he is truly a great player. However time is the ultimate judge of ones career. History has shown fans and the media remember the teams that where built and not put together. It's not really a new idea to put a team together. In all sports it's been tried and for the most part has failed. Even the Heat's two championships in 4 years can be considered a failure in the grand scheme of things. Lets not forget the great Heat team that everybody thought was the greatest of all time suffered the worst defeat of any NBA team in a championship series to a team that was built.

Maybe you're ok with trading all your draft picks (your future) and signing all the great FA's to win? However as a fan I'm not sure I would be interested. I fully understand that trades and FA's signings are apart of any sport. Yet just as we can look at all the success, we can also say well that didn't work. In the end Fans and not just hometown fans decide what a legacy is. We can spin it this way or that way, yet in the end Fans decide. That is why we all remember the Bulls, Celtics, Lakers, and why we will remember the Spurs.

One last thing it seems odd to me that LeBron desires to have major players on the court with him. Yet I'm not sure Jordan, Bird, Magic, or Duncan desired great players to be on their team with them. they just wanted to win for their teams. Don't get me wrong LeBron wants to win, but it's for himself and not the team he plays for. If that's not the case he would've never left his home team to chase championship with his big three. Fans will remember. Just saying.

@approxinfinity you may have out done yourself with this one. This is like a two for one topic. I'm going to try and tackle that latter, as it has been swirling in the deep dark recesses of me brain for a few days.

How do I even begin? My first thought was no way should players be compensated. They get a fee education, a place to stay, a personal trainer, tutors, and get to walk around campus as Kings. Aren't they compensated enough? Yet as this whole issue of compensated players began to unravel, and the media began to flood the airways with gotcha material. It seems I the unmovable object has been moved, yet not without fears.

Either I wasn't aware or just didn't put two and two together. I had forgotten or missed that Student Athletes are not allowed one certain privilege as normal college students are. ((The ability to Make Money)) A musical student can write a song, sell it, make millions, and still retain their scholarship. A language and arts major can write a book have it published, make millions, and still retain their scholarship. A science major can invent something, Patent such said invention, make millions and still retain their scholarship. Yet a basketball, or football player can't even get a job to have some spending money.

My fear is the classic saying, "Give and inch and they'll take a mile". The judgment as of the present moment may seem small and quite affordable to the NCAA and Colleges. However will it stop there? I don't think so. Already arguments are being made that student athletes should be able to market themselves for fat paydays. Just think of the back room deals and it's affects on recruiting on that one.

I think Student Athletes should be compensated but at what price? You know everybody runs around talking about how much money the colleges are making with the new TV money, Maybe I'm wrong but most of them are losing money and relies heavily on contributions from donors to balance the books. So what happens when these colleges have to start paying their student athletes? Will we lose other sports? How will this affect College sports overall? Will college sports become about 40 schools that have the land mass, population, and resources to explore this unknown? Maybe this is what the power 5 is all about? Separating themselves from the have-not's.

I really don't know, but I do have my fears.

Ok so I'm a little bored today. Surfing the Web found this video. Hope you enjoy. Both Oubre and Cliff shoot a free throw around the 3:00 mark.

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I imagine HCBS will run them until someone pukes. Then he'll be like hey lets run some more.

@justanotherfan the ideal that the number championships define a players legacy is not entirely true. Yes championships help but they're only a part of the equation. Being loyal to your team and fans are part of that legacy too. Hanging around when things are going bad even though you could go and shop your skills somewhere else is apart of a legacy too.

I don't think you'll find a person arguing the point that a star player doesn't need help. It's how you go about giving that player help. I feel that building a team is always better than putting one together. Yes I understand trades and FA's have to happen. Just not to extreme that you trading 3 first round picks for one player. Especially when that one player is Love.

Listen to the argument? Even the one your making? ((LeBron only has so many years left so you pull out all the plugs to win a championship for LeBron)). What happened to win one for the Cavs? When did this all become about LeBron that he can make or break organizations, because he is chasing something he'll never really have a legacy. Oh no he'll be remembered for sure, but not in the realm of Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Duncan. Me first players are usually forgotten in the realms of time.

@JayHawkFanToo It's because he's an Adidas player and Oregon is all Nike. Shoe wars strike again. :) On the bright side he's a ((shoe)) in for KU. ;)

@nuleafjhawk I have my fingers crossed. I so badly want KU football to rise again. I know we won't be world beaters, but man if we can just make some noise and tell the world hey we can play some football at KU too. I can't put into words other than to say I'll be stoked.

@approxinfinity time is the ultimate judge. LeBron will go down as one of the best to ever play the game. He's that good. However LeBron did irreversible damage when he left the Cavs. Fans are people, and most people are loyal to their teams no matter what. LeBron chased a legacy when he should've built one.

No fan from any part of the country or world would have thought of him as a lesser player if he would've just stayed with the Cavs and maybe won one or two championships. He would be considered amongst the greats. Yet he sold out and chased a legacy. Legacies aren't something you chase they are something you build. Do you think Jordan would be the enigma that he's is today if say he won 3 championships with the Bulls and went somewhere else and won three? Remember fans love loyalty no matter who they root for. After all fans are loyal. Who do you think a fan cherishes more the player that sold out and chased the money and a better supporting cast, or the player that stood pat and took less money to win with his team?

Sure LeBron is a favorite right now. He went back home. Maybe if he can win a couple championships with the Cavs all can be forgotten? However as time pass bye and Espn and the likes start running their shows from the past. LeBron will be remembered as the one that chased a legacy.

@drgnslayr love the post. After reading all the comments and doing some research. I'm not sure it's so much about proven versus potential as I thought it once was. I've come to the conclusion it's more like the product of our society. I know crazy right? However just like in life there is the undeniable desire to get what you can get now and don't worry about the future. So what if you ruin your franchise for 5 or 10 years so long as you get that championship. That is all that matters. However does that championship really matter that much when you finish last every year and are getting creamed when your so called can't miss players have all moved on?

To many people never think long term or it's affects. Some will even say that LeBron left the Heat because the cupboard was bare? Well I wonder why? Could it be the Heat traded away all their picks to have the big 3? Sure they had a great run, but 10 years from now will anybody remember? I bet 10 years from now the Spurs will be remembered. The Heat will be a flash in the pan, but the Spurs would be remembered as a dynasty.

Already the Media is building up the Cavs a sure fire championship team, and the trade isn't even happened. They are blinded by the talent the Cavs will put on the court of Irving, Love and LeBron. Yet reality is Irving and Love play no defense and the Cavs will have no bench. Did not the Spurs teach us anything? Of course they did, but again it's all about what you can get now.

Love maybe a good to great player no doubt, but is he really worth 3 first round picks? I don't think so. Let's not forget Love spent what 6 years in Minnesota and they didn't even sniff the playoffs. If he so good like everybody and a few KU fans have said then where is the playoff runs? No Love is a stat guy. Tell you one thing I just became a huge Wolves fan and Cavs hater, and you now what I'm not alone.

@approxinfinity point taken. However lets dig a bit deeper here. LeBron leaving the Cavs has really opened up this discussion of building a team and putting one together. How do I explain this? I'm not against picking up players in trades and FA's signings. However teams with a core of players that were drafted and paid there dues are remembered. I'm not saying that you can't go out into the FA's market and sign players by trading your draft picks. and have success. The Heat proved that. However in ten years will you remember the Heat run? or will you remember the Spurs run?

How many NBA fan's still buy jersey's from the Bulls, Celtics, Lakers just because they are in a sense home grown teams? Fans remember. How many fans jump off the Heat bandwagon this year? Yea the Heat had their run, their taste of success, but will anybody remember? 10, 15, 20 years from now who do NBA fans remember the Heat or the Spurs? Keep in mind the Heat had the worst beat down in the NBA finals. Fans remember and spend their money with that in mind. Know how many times I picked up stuff and apparel that was connected to the Bulls. Celtics, Spurs, and Lakers? A lot and I'm not even a NBA fan. You now why because it's worth money.

Sure putting a team together can give success for today, but the question is will anybody remember? NBA fans are no different than any other fans. You're a fan would you rather root for home grown players or hired guns?

Ask your self this question? Why is LeBron the most hated greatest player ever? What because he left the Cavs? Why did he leave the Cavs? To chase championships and Jordan? LeBron will never be or surpass Jordan, Bird, Magic, or Duncan. Know why? Because he signed a contract with the Heat. Sure Cleveland fans will love him if he wins a championship for them, but nobody else will. Disagree with me ask Nike how many fans love Jordan outside of Chicago land.

@icthawkfan316 thank you for your forgiveness.

What the Heat and the big three accomplished was quite impressive no doubt. However lets keep a few things in mind here. One the Heat and the Big 3 played in a very weak East Conference, as they did lose two of four. Second lets also keep in mind the first time they played the Spurs it wasn't so much the Heat beat the Spurs, as it was more the Spurs dropped the ball. Something the Spurs made a vengeance in a big way. Last years NBA Championships is one of the worst beat downs I've seen.

Do you think this Heat team would've beat Jordan's Bulls? Or how do you think NBA fans will remember the Heat run? Lets be honest they were lucky to have won two. Who will be remembered more the Heat or the Spurs? Building a team may take longer but the rewards are bigger and are remembered. Sure you can put a team together as they're trying to do in Cleveland, however the Cavs (had) all the pieces to be a dynasty. However no they sold out to get one championship. What happens if they don't get that championship? Which could very well happen. Think LeBron in his old age can encourage stars to come and play with him when the game it starting to pass him bye?

I know we will disagree but I believe you should always try to build a team and not just put one together. Let me ask you a question. Would you rather root for a team that is it built or is put together? Do we not mock UK for putting teams together? Sure UK got a championship doing it that way, but does anybody really remember, or even care? However I'm willing to bet that 08 KU team will remembered in college basketball scrolls not only for the shot but because it was a team.

Perception is everything, even to fans. Your knowledge of the NBA game surpasses mine no doubt. However as a causally fan when I think Jordan I think Bulls, when I think of Bird I think Celtics, when I think of Magic I think Lakers, when I think Duncan I think Spurs. That my friend is a legacy. Think I'm going to remember where Bosh played, Carmello played, or even LeBron played? Sure I know now but time has a way of warping the mind. How many teams have won a championship only to be forgotten? Yet how many fans still buy jerseys from the Celtics, Bulls, Lakers, and Spurs just because not only did they have star power but they were a team? Just my two cents.

@justanotherfan I don't know how it all works, but nobody ( yes I care what your point is or what you have to say :) ) but nobody can convince me that Duke, UNC, and UK are football powers and this is why they have Nike. Lets not for forget not to long ago KU made a BCS game and won. Something these basketball powers haven't done. I have no doubt Nike offered KU a deal, but Adidas offered a better one. So the question is why? I'm sorry I don't think it's just about the Longhorns and Sooners already being Nike schools.

Again I know I have no facts to back up anything I'm saying. However just look around. KU players that have star power often and due sign with Adidas. Also haven't you noticed that KU is on in every player that is foreign born. Even this latest cat Ray Kasongo is from Canada. Kind of funny Oregon a Nike school turned this kid down, even though he was approved by the NCAA. First thing you hear and read is he is interested in KU. Don't you find it odd that LeBron can't even pick up the phone and talk to Wiggs? Wonder why? Could it be that Nike is hedging it's bet that the Cavs are a championship team? I wonder was there any pressure on Wiggs to sign with Nike? What would've happened if Wiggs signed with Nike? Think he still gets traded?

You have to admit it's something that gets the brain cells turning.

@justanotherfan I have to be honest with you the more I research do and then connecting the dots. I'm afraid I can't go back to the innocence days of believing when a kid signs with your school it's just because he wants too. You've heard the saying where there is smoke there is fire? Look around there is smoke everywhere.

Just look at a couple of examples here. Kids are being recruited long before they even finish High School, and still some even before they make it to High School. Who's doing that recruiting? Who's paying for that recruiting. All these AAU teams, leagues and tournaments are sponsored mostly by who? Notice how Duke has been getting some big time recruits the last two years? I mean they've always have gotten good players but nothing like this. Remember the rumors of Wiggins signing a big deal with Adidas even before he stepped on campus. There never was no rumors of him signing with Nike. I wonder why? As you know He did indeed sign with Adidas.

I don't know how all this works, but I find it very interesting that Nike doesn't even try to make a serious play to sponsor Kansas. Some have said and some will say it's because of football. Well last time I checked UK, UNC, and Duke aren't exactly football powers themselves yet they are Nike schools. So why is this? Have boundaries lines already been set. Are the powers to be in the shoe and sports apparel world sitting in dark rooms smoking big fat cigars deciding the very fate of our society?

@justanotherfan ah man I hate to get into this Heat verses the Spurs, however a board rat must do what he as to do. :)

There is a few things I want to point out here. First is that the Spurs team was a built team and the Heat where a team put together. Drafting and signing FA's are not one in the same. Here's a great article I found about the Heat verse the Spurs if you're interested.

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What the Heat did had great success. Two championships in 4 years is nothing to sneeze at, however lets keep in mind the East is lacking in some power teams. Ask yourself this question would the Heat even make it out of the West to a championship game? and just for fun do you think the Heat get past oh I don't know lets say Jordan's Bulls? ;)

@JayHawkFanToo I have this feeling that Cliff and Oubre stick around for another year. Both have already have been quoted as saying they could stick around for another year. Now if they explode and dominant the game we love, then they have no choice but to leave. Perry to me is a shoe in for playing his senior season. I believe it's something he wants to do. Svee most likely won't see much playing time this year as he adjusts to the college game. Not to mention I think his parents feel money isn't everything and value an education.

The only one I'm not sure is Selden. I feel if he rights the ship this year then he has no choice but to leave for the unlimited money and broken dreams that the NBA offers.

Before I get started a little mention to the mystery person that uncovered the truth about the power of shoe companies. The one and only (((Jaybate))).

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So we all know KU is an Adidas school. It seems Adidas gives the university of Kansas a much better deal than Nike is willing to do. Not sure why? Maybe because Nike thinks they and their products are bigger than the name that wears their apparel? I don't know. I'm still trying to get my feet wet on all this shoe wars. There are so many ways to go with this. but I have 3 points or questions that I want to ask. I do kind of have my own feelings about this, but I want to hear from other like minded KU fans too.

Ok so your in a store looking for a pair of shoes, cool sports shirt, or an outfit that allows you to show your friends and foes you still have game. Does KU being an Adidas school affect your decision? Me myself I have to admit I do tend to look and buy more Adidas apparel gear, even though I do like some of the stuff Nike puts out.

Next which is a no-brainer do you think KU being an Adidas school hurts or helps KU recruiting? I have mixed feelings about this one. It seems here lately that KU has been getting in on some very top foreign players. Honestly I have no ideal if it has anything to do with KU and Adidas joining forces. However it does seem to me that KU and HCBS are paying more attention to foreign players. My only reserve about this is, are the foreign kids as good as the one and done players we are seeing here in the states? Like I said I have mixed feelings about this one.

Lastly which is hard to explain but I'll try my best. Does KU being an Adidas school help or hurt? Now this is were it's gets difficult for me to understand and even express. To me there is a danger in this. Perception is a very powerful tool. It can help or destroy you. It seems to me KU is getting more and more into recruiting foreign players. Does KU become that school where foreign player go too? If so does it hurt KU in recruiting state side? Does the media change in how it writes and portrays KU basketball as a whole? Does KU become an outsider in the very game they invented, nurtured, and protected all this century?

I maybe reaching in all this, but it was a thought I had to day and believed it would make for a good topic. Thanks for the inspiration Jaybate. :-)

I think Americans still love Baseball, but it's just not the same. I remember a time when players where drafted, played their way threw the minor leagues, and when they made it to the majors they stayed with their team. It's not like that anymore. I know FA's are apart of every sport, but the MLB doesn't have a salary cap. Meaning if you're a small market team and you have a player that is any good. You have to be looking to trade that player, or your going to lose them anyways. I guess what I'm saying there is an unfair playing field, and the fans know it. So why get all excited when the team your chasing has more money and resources than you, and can just make a trade for another CY Young award winner before the trade deadline?

@Crimsonorblue22 and Jayhawkfan I want to know how does the great LeBron, the anointed King, and the Ambassador of Basketball. not pick up the phone and talk to Wiggs? Why the silent treatment? Maybe Jaybate is right. This is all about shoe companies. Espn posted the video of the interview.

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Bare with me on this one. However I'm a true believer in Karma. How many times did KU have a team that should've played in a final four but didn't? How many times should have KU played for a championship but didn't ? How many times should have KU won a championship but didn't?

The one constant is KU keeps showing up, regardless of some miracle win by the opponent. At some point the wheels will reverse, and KU will win multiple championships whether they are the best team or not. I don't know how many games I've seen in the tournament if there was only a few more minutes on the clock KU wins. At some point that changes. To win a championship you have a good team and some luck. The reality KU has been a bit unlucky.

Wow??? The big one is Kobe Bryant, I wander how the Hornets fans feel about that trade? Thanks for enlightening post. How would you like that hanging over you organization?

I have I hopes for The Thunder Alexander too. However as the voice of reasoning HEM would say he's a freshman. I look for him to battle with foul trouble until he gets adjusted to the college game. Look for him to foul out of some games early in the season. Also look for Big 12 teams to bate him in to fouls in the early part of the conference season. Yet if he can play with in himself, to harness his madness. Then all bets are off. The kid goes after that rim like TRob. Let me put it this way. If I'm standing between him and the rim I'm getting out of the way. Just saying.

I love the Garnett comparison. Good stuff. I guess my hang up is the potential of Wiggs and Embiid. and my dislike for Love and LeBron. I could understand trading Wiggs and Embiid for a proven NBA winner. For me Love doesn't fill that bill. He seems more of a stat guy to me.

I know winning can cure all problems, but it can also hide real problems on a team too. What happens when Love is upset that he isn't getting his double doubles? Maybe I'm reaching but I just see problems with the Love and LeBron combo. How does Love respond when LeBron rips him a new one for not playing defense?

Just curious as my NBA knowledge is a lacking. Has any NBA team traded away an NBA star or great before they became great or a star? Maybe if I had a few examples I could warp my mind into trading Wiggs and Embiid for a Love (no defense) type player.

LOL LOL

@Crimsonorblue22

Weimaraner They are a German dog. She cost me a bundle, but is worth every dime. The best hunting/family dog I've ever had.

!I doubt it.jpg ↗

That's my girl. She's an old girl now. Man I don't even want to think of that day. :(

Ok so Wiggins will be traded to the Timberwolves, and it seems I stand alone in my thinking the trade shouldn't happen. I guess I must admit defeat as the majority has spoken. (I still don't make that trade. :) )

Before I get to the meat of this Topic I want to apologize to "icthawfan" as it seems in our previous banter I may have over stepped the line. It wasn't my intent but in life we sometimes do things we don't mean too. "Icthawfan" it was never my intent to lead you into thinking I don't care about your point of view. It was a mere mistake on my part of the choice of words in trying to project what I was thinking in the course of our banter. My point was I don't care what anybody says I don't make this trade. (Do you understand?) Either way if I did hurt you feelings. I apologize, as I do enjoy your points of view.

OK so now to the meat of this topic. With all the talk about Wiggins, we have forgotten about another KU Stud by the name of Joel Embiid. Ten years from now who is the NBA stud? Wiggins or Embiid? Does either have a legit chance of being an NBA great? If you were a GM of a NBA team with the first pick in the draft who do you pick? Do you pick either one of them? Lastly and my real point if the roles were reversed and Embiid was a Cav. Do you trade him for Love?

@drgnslayr said:> Chalmers just went on and on about how much of a mentor LeBron was to him...

I'm not a big fan of LeBron either. However I was just pointing out what he could do. However we both know what he's going to do. As icthawfan likes to point out it's the right thing to do. Trade Wiggs for Love and go for what you can get now and don't worry about the future.

So it seems this topic maybe running out of steam (unless you guys want to keep it going). I did title this topic the LeBron Legacy.

LeBron left his home team his home town to chase NBA championships. In some ways it worked as he won two with the Heat, yet on the other hand he destroyed the hearts of the fans from his home town. LeBron may have healed a lot of wounds with his decision to come home instead of chasing more money and championships.

However I feel LeBron is still at a crossroads in his Legacy. I get that he still wants to chase more championships. What player wouldn't, but however at what cost to the team you call home? LeBron's zeal to win a championship right now maybe clouding his judgment. If you just look at the current Cavs team without any trades you see a team with a lot of potential and younger players.

One path: There are no guarantees in life but just odds. The Cavs could trade half their team for Love and yes it increases the odds that LeBron could capture another championship in a couple years. However there is a lot of if's, and no guarantees.

The other path: LeBron decides to ride with the talent the Cavs already have. He spends the rest of his prime tutoring, teaching, and up lifting the young talent the Cavs have. Yes, NO championships will come in the next couple of years. Yet by year 3 and for sure year 4 the Cavs become a force to be reckoned with.

Some will say LeBron only has 4 or five years left to make hay. However if you have a team that you invested in, the talent to boot and respects you. LeBron won't have to be the best player on the court to win. Yet something tells me even when LeBron is old he will be a handful. He can sit back make big money, bring the hammer when needed, watch the team he grew up, and collect championships.

The Best part he can retire giving his home team not only a championship but a dynasty. However it's his legacy to decide.

@JayHawkFanToo I was more referring to the team concept. Chicago is till looking for that next Jordan, Celtics that next Bird, and the Lakers well they did find Kobe but that is another debate.

Very few players actually reach the realm of greatness, and even less kids have the combination of size, body type and athletic ability that Wiggs has. This is why I stand pat until I see what I have with this kid. In reality Wiggs will fall short, but when a kid has the package of size, body, and athletic ability that Wiggs has you don't just trade that away.

I agree 100% with you on the damage LeBron has mostly likely done, trying to peddle Wiggs. I tried to bring this up many moons ago on this thread and it went pretty much unnoticed. I knew there was trouble on the way when LeBron said he was heading home and never even mentioned Wiggs. I pretty much take for granted Wiggs will be a Timber Wolf in 28 days. Or is it 27? I will be absolutely shocked if Wiggs is still a Cav after the 30 day time period.

@icthawkfan316 not once have I said your views where flawed. Not once. Yet you said mine were. In fact I posted on many occasions I understand where your coming from. Yet somehow I'm flawed because I wouldn't trade Wiggs before I see what I have. Think about this what if the Bulls would have traded Jordan, or the Celtics traded Bird, or the Lakers traded Magic? Think the GM Would still have a job? or that the fans would be happy with the one championship? Besides I backed that last statement with a joke. Maybe you should lighten up a little, because I'm telling you, any body else I don't make this trade until I see what I have. Wiggs is a once in a life time kind of talent. Yea the odds are against him, but he has the ability to do it. Sorry dude I'm seeing what the kid has. You say there really is not risk in trading potential for a proven player. Well I can tell you this I wouldn't want to be remembered as the guy that traded a future in NBA great. Just saying.

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Love the post highelitemajor it is a very valid, valid point. I think Wiggs will struggle with assists in Minnesota, as he really won't have anybody to pass the ball to, but we shall see.

@icthawkfan316 I always love your posts and comments. Sometimes I disagree and sometimes I see yours and relax on mine. However dude you just brought the Royals into this this subject???? MLB and the NBA are quite different. The Royals have traded away all their proven talent over the past two decades because one David Glass is a cheap owner, and not a very good friend. As he promised Mister K he would run the team and sell it to local KC owners when the time is right at Mister K's wishes. However Mister David Glass is making to much money running the Royals into the ground. The second, MLB doesn't have a salary cap It has a luxury tax so a big market team like the Yankees can just buy all the players they want, forcing small market teams like the Royals to trade proven all stars for potential, or they lose them anyways.

Look I get it this trade makes sense to you, but it doesn't to me. I don't make this trade until I see what I have. Like I said the athletic ability, size, body of Wiggs doesn't come around very often. Love is a dime a dozen, especially since he doesn't play defense. No way I trade a potential future Jordan, Bird, Magic, Bryant, or Duncan. Until I see what the kid can do. I don't care what Lebron says or you for that matter.

Nothing but Love (pun intended) Icthawkfan316

@icthawkfan316 - You say my assumption of keeping Wiggins is flawed. Yet in the same breath you and everyone assumes if the Cavs make this trade they are a championship team. Every move you make to acquire a player or players is a gamble or risk. Love guarantee's nothing but that he can spread the court and play no defense.

I could just at easily say that the Wolves trade Love to the Bulls and they win nothing, and the Cavs keep Wiggins on go to win the next 3 championships. You can't just have it one way. You may feel my thinking is flawed but there is no guarantee that any team wins a championship with Love or Wiggs for that matter. These are all gambles.

However the Cavs drafted Wiggs and have him under contract. What's the bigger gamble to keep him or trade him? That's the question. I know I'm reaching on Wiggs being a great one, however I don't see how you trade the kid before you see what you have. That's just me. I mean if the logical choice is always the proven player then why even draft at all?

@justanotherfan these are very valid points. However just because Cleveland trades for Love, it doesn't grantee multiple champions, one champion or that they will even make it to the championship game. This doesn't mean that I don't think a team shouldn't explore trades and FA's to better or increase their chance of winning a championship. I get this, believe me I really do.

This was never my argument. My argument is how do you trade a player with the potential of Wiggs without seeing what the Kid can do? This concept that proven is always better than potential is a weak stance and is hollow. As in every trade, fee agent signing, or drafted player there is risk.

I understand I walk a different path, talk a different game, and have different thoughts about Love for Wiggs, proven versus potential, building for the future versus going for it all now than most. It's ok I'm cool with it.

However let me ask you a question or anybody that would like to respond? Years from now and your looking back will you remember that team that sold out their future to win that lone championship, or will you remember that team that protected their future and wins multiple championships? The Spurs may have traded and picked up players along the way but they protected their future, their potential. They never sold out their future. That is why they are the best run franchise in the NBA.

This is the best way I can put it. I get trading Love for Wiggs. However nobody and I mean nobody can convince me trading Wiggs for Love. Well not until you at least see what the kid can do with the parts you already have. I mean a player of Wiggs athletic ability only comes around so often. Wouldn't you want to see what you have before trading the kid?

@Kip_McSmithers the reality of the matter is the Cavs are desperate right now. They have Lebron and will pull out all the stops to try and win a NBA championship now. Even if that means trading away the future. People can say what they want about the Wolves but their playing this the right way. They don't won't anything the Bulls want to trade or anybody else for that matter. They want Wiggs.

This whole Wiggs for Love is really a good representation of our society today. Get what you can get now and don't worry about the future. No wonder so many people and teams end up with nothing. It's kind of like a poker game. Somebody gets a couple aces and bets chasing the cum. All the while the guy across the table has a boat (full house) with 2's and 8's. They maybe just 2's and 8's yet between the two of them there is five of them and they beat a couple of aces. Spurs anybody?