🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Obviously he "threw" the ball.

OK. I just saw the highlights and the lead go from 8 to 3 when Andrew through the ball to Forte who then made a 3. Probably good that I didn't see that live.
Also, Ford's quote that we are hard to beat....especially in that building with the fan support that we get. Making excuses.

Didn't get to see the game (but tracked it on ESPN gametracker) until I was able to catch the last 3 mins. and OT. It looked like we were doing OK and then they went up by one. I almost lost it.
Good to read JBs summary and I will look for everyone else's thoughts.
Look....we are going to live or die with Tharpe. Just like EJ last year.
Based on his stats, I think I would take his performance today in most games. Although it's hard to tell since I didn't see the game.
It was a little alarming though that we didn't get more inside against a team without much heighth inside.
Did they play some zone?
Why didn't we go inside? Or did Selden and Andrew get their points inside?
Please let me know.

Thanks!

@globaljaybird Do you really think we are a 5, 6, or 7 without him?
That seems really low to me. I think a 1 or a 2 with him and, over the long haul maybe a 3 without.
I don't think the committee moves us beyond a 3 even if they think he doesn't come back.
I think we will end up a 2.

@nuleafjhawk By the way, great comment on the other thread about everyone being happy with the way things are!
Comments like that keep me coming back to this site!

Great question. Tough to answer because I had different expectations at the beginning of the season than I did after Embiid showed he had progressed and we realized what he could be. Also, difficult since we don't know if we have Joel or not and how effective he will be.
I'm going to say 7. I say the most likely scenario is we lose in the sweet 16, given all of the uncertainty.
But I don't think Elite 8 is by any means out of reach and if we put it together we can go to the final four.

@RockChalkinTexas Certainly couldn't!
What has to happen for us to make a run?
1. Andrew takes over.
2. Tharpe doesn't have one of those awful games.
3. Some decent production from someone else. Ok...maybe 2 if to a lesser extent. Either Perry, Tarik,Wayne.
4. Not everyone disappears. They just have to take turns doing so.

Look, all of that can happen and it is not unrealistic.
One reason we are all so nervous, and what brings out the sky is falling crowd is, frankly, our past tourney disappointments. That is the elephant in the room here.
We have disappointed when expectations were high.
Maybe, as some have suggested, we can surprise when many doubt us.
Just like 2012.
Despite the disappointments, I believe there is a good chance that Self pushes the right buttons.

Wow. I can't believe the negative comments on the other site. Taking the extreme view on either end of the spectrum is just not right. We are not doomed to lose the first game (or the 2nd) nor are we a shoo in to go to the final four. Man, there is some middle ground. Oak, on the other site, predicted 2 wins in St. Louis and a loss in the sweet 16. That is a logical prediction. That said, anything can and does happen in the Madness as we have seen first hand on both ends of the spectrum.

Great post by HEM.

On paper, we should still be the favorite vs. the forecasted 6 and 7 seeds (and similar teams) which is the type of team we will see in our 2nd game (yes, we could lose the first game, but you can't in any rationale way predict that).
If Joel doesn't come back at all, or is not close to 100%, the next game is a risk. But...it always is at that point.
We can still go to the final four without Joel. I don't expect that to happen, but I can still hope for it and I don't feel like it is a pipe dream.
I do find it interesting that it appears that additional information was unearthed, or a different diagnosis was obtained, when Joel went to LA. At least based on Self's comments before he left and when he returned.
I don't think Self or anyone else will take chances with Joel's future.
I also don't think that just because he plays it means that his future is being compromised.
All that said, given the way the trend has been it would not surprise me if he is done at KU. Hope not, but we have to prepare for that possibility.

Interesting question about Marshal. It might depend on how he thinks he can recruit at WSU. I don't know who he has coming in, or right now, who is graduating.
I know one thing. The MVC is really weak right now. He could dominate for awhile unless those teams get better.
I don't think Self is going to a zone on a regular basis. He will throw the zone up to change things up or go to one of the junk defenses as needed.
I agree that there is no need to show his hand now.

You are correct. While not plausible, we do need the offense to go through him more often. Maybe isolate at the end of the shot clock.
Watching Wiggins yesterday reminded me of one player carrying the team like I haven't seen since, maybe, 26 years ago?
Of course, that guy was a senior.

@joeloveshawks If Wiggins is not on the All Defenseive Team.....that is a travesty. He always guarded the best scorer (position permitting) and always did a good job.
I really don't understand that one.

@icthawkfan316 Running more of our offense for him is probably the answer. We can't change who we are by not looking inside, but maybe late in the shot clock, if we haven't earlier gotten anything inside, isolate AW instead of the PG.

I'm not sure he had more of a green light yesterday than any other day.
He was just more aggressive. I think Self would want that any game. I don't think he too any bad shots that went in.

Some have brought up Carmelo. After thinking about it, given all of the concerns with Tharpe, does Self try running everything through Wiggins? At least most of the time? He looks inside for the big men first. He breaks down the defense and then either takes it to the hole, or dishes off? Tharpe, or whomever brings the ball up the court, but maybe Wiggins does that part of the time.
I know his ball handling skills could be better, but is he the other option we're looking for?
Ride him as far as he can take us.
Is this completely crazy?
Desperate times make us all think of desperate measures.

On another note, check out the ISU students mocking Smart's flopping when he is introduced. See the article on ESPN.com. Pretty funny.

@HighEliteMajor Self's history suggests that he won't switch gears in March.
There is a reason for that. It is hard to do and, I think, disruptive. Plus, as JB pointed out in one post.....he realistically has no where else to go.
Mason has not proven that he is it.
You could give the other guys more PT at the point in the conference tournament.....but that flies in the face of having one leader.
I think Self will sink or swim with Tharpe....I don't think he has a choice.
But we will see.

Interesting day in the Conference. Baylor makes their late season push. OSU can't overcome the Hilton Magic (luck). Looks like we get the rematch with Smart and OSU. If we win, then likely ISU or KSU (I say ISU) and then OU, Tex, or perhaps Baylor.
Should be fun. Wish I were going to be there.

@KansasComet You bet!

@KansasComet Should have added that my concern is that they continue to stand around and watch him take over.

@KansasComet Correct, and I did not mean to imply otherwise.

Hem,
I echo your thoughts. The 2 good things to come out of this game were Wiggins taking over and us not giving up.
I wouldn't go as far as to say we can't count on Tharpe next year......but this year is in doubt still. He has to bounce back or we are dead. Very frustrating to see him benched. Mason or Frankamp can't do it. Both too young and inconsistent.
I agree about CF's defense, but boy he couldn't do anything offensively. He needs to hit shots to be valuable to us at this point in his young career. That's what he does.
Black was frustrating to watch after the last game.
Same old thing. Foul trouble and then not able to get back in rhythm.
We need Andrew to continue to try to take over, but the downside of that is everyone stands around and watches him go one on one.
We need more than that and I think it is a tough balance sometimes.

@HighEliteMajor As you say, I think Ellis could be even more effective if he more often steps outside and hits the jumper. This could offset how he gets taken advantage of down low when he is on defense. I feel like every time he takes a jump shot it is going in. Down low.....it seems like we're waiting for his shot to get blocked.

Interesting point about today's game is if we win we would likely play WVU or Tech in our first game in KC. If we win, then WVU, Baylor, and OSU (assuming they both lose their tough road games) would end up tied for 8th. WVU loses the tie breaker due to their 3 team round robin record. If we lose, and Baylor and OSU lose, then we likely get a rubber match with those Cowboys (they lose a tie breaker with Baylor). I do believe Baylor and OSU lose today.

@HighEliteMajor Good points about stats. But I believe that Wiggins' stats, if he played on the other teams, would be higher. He didn't need to score as much due to our balance. I know that logic asks voters to make assumptions. But, he was the best player on the best team in the league. His defense should also count.
Also, I may be in the minority, but I'm not sure we win the league without either Embiid or Wiggins. They were our 2 best players.

I'm getting in lat on this discussion, so maybe I'm the only one, but I don't think Selden is necessarily going. I think there is a good chance he stays. Not in the lottery, he returns and he's our main guy, etc. He could go from somewhere in the first round to the lottery......that is worth staying for.
If Wayne stays.....we are a much different team next year, I think.
Better than this year, probably.

Tarik was awesome last night on the court. He's been even more awesome all year with his attitude and leadership.
I loved the way Tharpe bounced back with an unbelievably efficient game. No turnovers, and his points per minutes played were great. Obviously, we need him to continue to play well.
Black's performance gives us confidence going into the next few games.
Now, about Embiid's back................

That is a good question. I would go with this year's team because of Embiid being more of an offensive threat than Cole and Wiggins being more of a force as a freshmen than the Morii. I believe these things offset the better guard play of 09. Now, that team was more consistent, but the upside is higher for this team.
2009 team lost in the sweet 16, although to the eventual NC in a game I thought we were going to win at halftime. But that team still felt like they went as far as they were going to go, I think. Although....that seems like a long time ago now.

@HighEliteMajor Probably not. But I think they are better than with Lucas.....based on the fact that if Lucas were better in practice he would play more.
I understand the premise of your post.....we have nothing to lose by seeing what Lucas can do and who knows what he might do when given extended minutes.
I just think the chance of that happening are very small.....again I understand there is nothing to lose.

Well, I guess I'm not that bold. I think are chances are better with Black. Yes, he has problems staying on the floor. Yes, he has had games where he hasn't done much.
But he has also had games where he has been productive based on minutes played. More than just the Georgetown game.
Again, we don't see practice, but I would assume he is outplaying Lucas.
You're right.....not impossible with Lucas. Maybe he will get some minutes (by necessity when Black gets into foul problems) and make you profoundly prophetic.

@Crimsonorblue22 Hmmm. I guess I forgot the part about Smart saying the coaches showed them a quote.

I don't see it happening. As you say, the talent is too even. Recruiting has even out in that the "mid majors" get very good players also. Plus, the one and done has changed the whole dynamic. The pressure becomes so great, also, with the increased TV / media in general coverage.

@drgnslayr I agree. They could make some serious noise. They are not deep, but their front line players are very good.
I think they will be on a mission and that is pretty powerful come tournament time.

@joeloveshawks Given all the antics, I don't care for Smart any more than anyone else does.
However, I think we should look at the possibility that he was using "cutting down the net" as a metaphor for winning the title outright in Stillwater.
It is very plausible.

Decent chance that we face OSU in our first game in the Conference tournament. If they split with KSU at home and at Hilton, and Baylor beats ISU at home and loses at KSU, they tie and Baylor wins the tiebreaker, so OSU finishes 8th.I'm assuming Baylor wakes up at the end of the season (maybe a big if). ISU and KSU have harder 2 games than OU and Texas, so we would likely play one of them next and then Texas or OU. Assuming we advance each round, of course.

@Crimsonorblue22 I would like to know what Smart was saying. Given the trouble he just got into....his behavior needs to be beyond reproach. You are right......what he did to Orr (regardless of what Orr said) is assault. You do that almost anywhere any you get arrested.
And.....the flopping is getting absolutely ridiculous!!!

@DinarHawk Good points. We don't need Tharpe to win games for us. We just need him to not lose games for us. I think he is capable of doing that.
I still hold out hope that Self and the staff can help him do that. If so, it is then a matter of the youngsters continuing to get better....which we have seen, to have a shot at a final four.
Admittedly, after last night that is hard to envision. Usually, teams that make runs have started to gel by now. Let's see how it plays out.

A lot of good point, JB. But...isn't Wiggins 19?

I don't think you pull Tharpe now. You go with who got you here......even though he has been inconsistent during the process of getting us here. We just have to hope that Tharpe bounces back. I don't think he will be as bad as last night. It seemed like we had a lack of focus across the board. Wiggins with 6 TO's. Selden and Tharpe missing connections on the one pass at mid court.
This does remind me of the up / down year of EJ last year. I don't think you CAN switch gears now.....it's too late in the season.
But HEM is right......a bad game from him in the tournament and we are done.

@eastcoasthawk I had a similar experience a few years ago. I went to the Michigan game that December after not having been at the Phog for maybe 25 years. I almost got choked up during the Rock Chalk chant. I couldn't believe how electric the place was and I felt so lucky to be an Alum. I went back the following year for USC game (Selby's first game) and told myself I would try to get back for one game a year. I missed a couple of years and then went back this year for the Georgetown game. When the schedule comes out for this year, I am going to try to schedule a trip back in December this year and bring my adult son. He hasn't adopted our Jayhawks since he has never lived in Kansas, but he is a sports fan and would appreciate the atmosphere.
I know exactly how you felt at that game.
There is not place like Allen Field House.

@HighEliteMajor Not to jump the gun, but I have thought the same thing with one exception. I have been thinking that Selden is the key....if he stays we will be better next year.

@icthawkfan316 I think that's a pretty good summary of the topics that we all will discuss after the season is over. Also, our 2015 recruiting efforts.

What I don't like about Marshall is that now, when they are good, he mouths off about playing us. He probably said it when he first got there, but not as loud.
And trying to act like it is in our best interest to play them is just so obviously wrong.
Also, don't forget that after they beat us in 81 with all that talent, they went on probation. Pretty serious recruiting violations as I recall.

@JayHawkFanToo Very True. But his body looked like it needed work. No telling if that might have helped him.

@RockChalkinTexas Gooden was a guy that, while he has had a nice career and made some serious Doe-Re-Me, I always thought he could have done better in the pros. He always looked like he could have worked on his body / conditioning and been a potential all star.
But, I'm not an NBA scout (nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night), so what do I know.

Hard to tell if Self wants Lyle to come here no matter what or if it is in case Selden leaves.....If so I'm sure that has been discussed with Lyle (ala Turner and Embiid). Self could also want him here if AW transfers. Even though that would create a problem with minutes at the 1 and 2 with someone(s) not getting adequate minutes (just like this year), I'm not sure Self worries about that. He once said he doesn't worry about playing time for the guys....that always works itself out.
He knows you needs the best players and I don't think he believes you can have too many.

My biggest fear is that we again play "tight". Self's teams here have a history of doing this. In all of the upset losses, this happened. Maybe Michigan only in the last 2 minutes.
Heck, I was at the Davidson game and we played tight as heck the whole game. Pulled the string on shots, missed Fts. Fortunately things went our way.
To an extent that comes with the territory with the focus on the dance and the pressure of being a high seed. All teams experience it to some degree, but Self's teams have exhibited more often than most.

I understand where the sentiment of NC or bust (WiSox and HEM) comes from. But I think the NC in 08 and the Finalist in 12 count for a lot. Yes....a final four or a NC is what everyone shoots for. We just need to sprinkle them in often enough. Certainly I would like to see Self get another NC which would then, I think, validate him further as a truly great coach.....not many have multiple NCs.
While it was a good win last night I thought some disturbing trends continue. It seemed like we could not stop OU in the 2nd half. Every time they came down the court I felt like they were going to score. Fortunately we did stop them at a few key times late.
As for OSU this Saturday...you can bet Smart and OSU will feel like they have something to prove and play with a vengeance. They are fighting for their tournament lives. Under those circumstances......I don't like our chances.

WSU will probably be a 1 seed and I think they should. Do I think they are one of the 4 best teams in the country? No. Would they be undefeated with a schedule that matches the teams ranked around them? I don't think so, but we'll never know. They have won all of their games and should be a #1.
That being said, if we don't get a 1 seed....and I don't think we will.......I would prefer to be matched up against them as a 1 vs. the other 1s.
Now about our tournament history........we'll discuss that in detail as we get closer to that time, I'm sure.

Hopefully we will get revenge tonight. Certainly, if we can't beat UT at home, then if we somehow blow the conference championship, we deserve what we get.
It will be interesting to see. Taylor penetrated at will, while he has not had as much luck against some other teams. Our concerns in that area have been well discussed. Ridley and Holmes dominated.....then not so much against other teams. I think mainly, they brought it in Austin and we didn't. We shouldn't have that that problem tonight.

When I watched the ESPN highlights last night they played Bob Davis' call of the winning play on the radio and it was great!
A few years back, I used to complain that I had to sign up for the on-line broadcast and couldn't watch all of the games. Now that I subscribe to the full court package and can see all of the games.
Now I realize I miss hearing Bob.........