🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Well, as I quietly finished my workout/weights routine after 90min of ball at a Wichita healthclub this week...I got treated to 2 ladies talking about WSU basketball, and about "well, cant go undefeated every season (after loss to Utah)", and then they mentioned how they were getting Connor Frankamp from KU and how "he was in that McDonalds game" (he wasnt). So I quietly waited for it (now that "KU" got mentioned)...and sure as shizzle, they started sniping at KU and Bill Self: "...well, I dont know why they wont play us--they'll play EmporiaSt or Washburn, but wont play us!"..."I honestly think he's scared to play us". (I stayed silently glued to my nautilus machine, but seriously thought about walking up and trying to talk a little ball with them...but I didnt). I dont think 1 conversation will change entrenched beliefs, and my correcting their error about Frankamp not being a MickeyD would only have come across as a negative comment on a WSU player. Never mind the fact Connor got simply outcompeted on KU's roster.

I also wanted to tell them that Self nor most of Jayhawk Nation "fear" anybody, especially WichitaSt. I mean, we got ourselves humiliated by KY, but most of us would LOVE to take on KY again. So how on earth would we be 'scared' to play WSU?

Now regarding WSU the team--I like them. Like VanVleet (another Mason). Love Kansas boy Ron Baker (better than Brady, far better than Spradling, pretty much inbetween Reed and Hinrich, imho). An absolute shocker was to hear the WSU-Newman game announcers compare Baker to "Kirk Hinrich" (did anyone else catch that?!) They did NOT mention KU or Kansas, just Hinrich. Obviously that's a compliment to Baker, and deservedly so, as we know NBA scouts have taken notice of Baker's all-around skillset, and his NBArange 3gun. Baker played from day 1, unlike Reed, and I dont think there was much NBA interest in Reed, maybe, in fairness to Reed--because Reeds mpg AND role was limited by other guys on Reeds own team. I personally think Reed could have been a Craft-like PG, at some school that needed that out of him. Cant say anything bad about Tekele Cotton, a very Self-like player. But their bigs are raw, young, and by committee this year. I think the speed and quickness of Cliff, Ellis, Jamari...and size of Lucas would wear down their bigs. Guardplay could be a wash, but KU is deep at long, athletic guards. This could be a matchup decided by rbd-margin and foul-trouble.

I have no ill will towards Marshall, but it bugs me that he hates KU, and the WSU fanbase has followed his cue, for the most part. As someone who grew up in Wichita, I recall the great WSU teams of the 80s, & recall that big deal it was when WSU beat KU in the March Madness one time. I also know that the WSU-KU series was called-off in the early-90's by WSU's request due to the games having become non-competetive contests. Maybe that's their seed of resentment: to be forced to say "no", which was their own admission of inferiority. So maybe for their own inner complex, they need to have that question answered. They want desperately to use KU as their "yardstick", with their hope that a close-fought contest restores that jilted pride. The problem is that wish "to play KU" is also flirting with fire, as calling Self "scared" (heard many, many Shoxfans say this) may get a very amped-up KU team facing their squad if any such meeting came to happen, like in March, for example. Self's "nothing to be gained" phrase implies there is recruiting ground to be lost if KU lost to WSU...thus I think Self would get his guys to go for blood, for every reason, while publicly staying the media-master he is ("should be a great game").

So while the Shockers' ego may need the legitimizing of their program's progress by beating KU, it would on the other hand be potentially devastating put-u-in-your-place type of moment if KU beat them. Worse than losing to KY in the Madness, as they have no history with KY. They come back to KS and there arent daily reminders of KY. But they'd face KU reminders daily. They better be careful what they wish for, as they cant afford to lose to us. I'd hate to think of some of their fans waiting 25+ yrs to see a KU team dash their hopes (if Bill Self has anything to say about it..).

Personally, I'd like to get it over with: play em, beat em. I personally find it peculiar Self doesnt want to play them. Its a hard position to defend when another BigXII team (KSU) played WSU in IntrustArena. Of course, KSU may have their own set of reasons to play WSU, and make NO mistake, some of that is to make KU look bad. That may impact their competition for Kansas kids to attend their school, and may make a difference if Snyder goes to recruit a Wichita kid? Who knows, but any angle could be at play. Hate to think of those old "snob hill" phrases I recall hearing as a teenager. But I'll support Self...although the State legislature is contemplating making the 2 teams play each other, so I've heard...Man, if I could tell Self one thing, I'd say: "blow their boat outta the water, sink it quick!" (but thats just my view).

I bring this up, because I'm sick of that same Shocker scorned-drum...I am curious what people on this site think of this? I get the same thing from some of the guys I play ball with in Wichita...man they love their WSU, and they were pulling for Frankamp like I never thought possible.

Seeing their fans, and trying to decide whats realistic and whats not, has given me more perspective, not only on WSU (who I still root for, like their guards), but also on KU basketball and football, as I grapple with what's our yearly expectation for bball and ftball.

Any thoughts welcome...RCJH.

@ralster Major props to you for keeping your mouth shut. The ladies may have heard a fire and brimstone sermon from me.

My take on WSU - They are good. They were good last year, they're good this year and they may be good next year.

They will not be good forever. I compare them to KU football. We have been and can be good - for a while.

Note to Gregg Marshall and crew - Wichita, Ks is not the basketball mecca of the world. (Look about 175 miles to your Northeast...) You will get lucky and get some really good talent - once in a while. The top 50 players in the country don't want to and won't come to Wichita. Enjoy it while you can.

How do I feel on the subject? At this point and time, it would be great for both teams and generate a lot of interest for the state of Kansas. WSU Basketball has improved quite a bit in recent years. I don't know if they go undefeated had Creighton remained in their Conference last season, but they were a great team. I would say schedule a home and home for two games, and see if it works? If so, continue to renew it on a two year basis. If not, cancel it. Chances are, they will meet in the NCAA Tourney eventually. @ralster all of the comments that you heard from the ladies are just what fans do. Is anyone ever completely satisfied when it comes to athletics?

@ralster

Great, great read.

Super recall on WSU backing out of playing KU originally.

I am in a similar boat.

I loved the Shocks till they started dissing KU.

My position on this is the same as with MU ... play them.

But WSU is different. Self's position on MU isn't based on alleged logic. It's based on emotion. So it's hard to argue against the emotional decision not to play MU. It's easy to argue against the WSU avoidance.

Self has said that we have to play games that benefit Kansas. He uses two points there -- money and exposure.

However, both are poor arguments.

A great example of a similar team that plays an in-state basketball school is North Carolina. A program on the same elite plane as KU, yet UNC played Davidson at a neutral site. Davidson is comparable to WSU. WSU is not a perennial power. Davidson isn't either. Both have had their good runs, here and there. If North Carolina can play Davidson at a neutral site, Kansas can play WSU.

Each year we play game at the Sprint Center. One year it happened to be Davidson, then Oregon St., another New Mexico, this season Utah. Perhaps I'm missing something, but it would seem to me that none of those schools give us exposure to any particular recruiting hotbed, nor do they give us a national exposure game. They are pedestrian games. Even if one of the teams is ranked, they are not exceptional national games.

Further, none of the games generated one ounce of increased fan interest. It is just another game. WSU would certainly be different. Such a match-up could generate more national interest, particularly in the first few seasons of the games.

We played a home and home with Colorado?

Look, I'm sure someone can make the case not to play WSU. But you'd have to work at it. Sometimes, though, when someone is kicking sand in your face you just have to pound them into the sand. Life is not without risk. Sure, we could lose. But the build-up and the anxiety of a game that has subjective repercussions is why we play the games. It's the beauty of sports.

Let's play WSU.

@HighEliteMajor

Agree 100%.

Schedule it.

Next

@HighEliteMajor said:

I'm sure someone can make the case not to play WSU. But you'd have to work at it.

How about we're not going to let some chump commuter school dictate terms to us and try and pressure us in the media into playing them? If nothing else, I'm for not playing them on principle.

Let's get this straight - WSU needs this game. We (KU) do not. When one party needs something from another party, the way to go about that is not to act like a bunch of entitled obnoxious ingrates. In short, you'll catch more flies with honey.

Think of it like this - it sets a bad precedent that we can basically be bullied by these non-entities into playing them. IF the game ever happens, it needs to be because we wish it so.

(I also am 100% in agreement with us never playing Misery again)

@HighEliteMajor

It isn't often that I disagree with a post on so many different levels. Let's see if I can get through this.

"My position on this is the same as with MU ... play them."

Mine is the samefor both as well.... Don't

"But WSU is different. Self's position on MU isn't based on alleged logic. It's based on emotion. So it's hard to argue against the emotional decision not to play MU. It's easy to argue against the WSU avoidance.

Self has said that we have to play games that benefit Kansas. He uses two points there -- money and exposure.

However, both are poor arguments."

Disagree here as well. KU gains nothing by playing either school. We only fill their coffers with money, we are not going to sell any more tickets, gain any more revenue or profit from the games any more than we do for anyone else. Playing them is not going to garner any more ground in those areas with respect to recruiting. We are strong In KC and we are strong in KS with respect to our recruiting base. We also aren't going to gain a lot with respect to pride. We will be expected (in most years) to beat them so the only thin there can be from a game against either is a down side.

"A great example of a similar team that plays an in-state basketball school is North Carolina. A program on the same elite plane as KU, yet UNC played Davidson at a neutral site. Davidson is comparable to WSU. WSU is not a perennial power. Davidson isn't either. Both have had their good runs, here and there. If North Carolina can play Davidson at a neutral site, Kansas can play WSU."

Sorry this just reminds me of that saying that I am sure everybody's father has said when we kids were thinking of doing something silly and made the comment, "Well Billy is going..." The correct response is, "If Billy was going to jump off a cliff..." I don't care what other schools choose to do, I am only interested in what is best for KU and I don't see regularly schedule games against either of those two schools as being good for KU.

"Each year we play game at the Sprint Center. One year it happened to be Davidson, then Oregon St., another New Mexico, this season Utah. Perhaps I'm missing something, but it would seem to me that none of those schools give us exposure to any particular recruiting hotbed, nor do they give us a national exposure game. They are pedestrian games. Even if one of the teams is ranked, they are not exceptional national games."

ON this we agree, but there also is no downside to playing them. The only positive for those games, imo, is that it keeps KU's name in the forefront in the KC recruiting and maintains control of the city (to a degree) for KU keeping Moo at bay there.

"Further, none of the games generated one ounce of increased fan interest. It is just another game. WSU would certainly be different. Such a match-up could generate more national interest, particularly in the first few seasons of the games."

I beg to differ. It would create more regional interest, but the truth of the matter is that most of the country doesn't care about two Kansas schools playing each other yearly. This year there might be some interest due to the rankings, but for the most part, not so much. KU has a national presence, all that playing tWSU would do is increase their exposure. No real benefit to KU.

"We played a home and home with Colorado?"

I wasn't particularly happy about that, but at least it helped a former KU player, so that is how I justified it. I guess it did also keep our fanbase in CO happy as well as keep our recruiting open there. Mostly just rationalizing it there though.

"Look, I'm sure someone can make the case not to play WSU. But you'd have to work at it. Sometimes, though, when someone is kicking sand in your face you just have to pound them into the sand. Life is not without risk. Sure, we could lose. But the build-up and the anxiety of a game that has subjective repercussions is why we play the games. It's the beauty of sports."

I don't think it takes much work at all. I see absolutely no benefit from playing WSU at all. I see how it helps WSU, but absolutely nothing to gain for KU. Nothing

@Kong Actually, I think that the rationale for playing Colorado to allow our Western Kansas and Denver area alums to attend the game is valid.

It is really not that simply and yet it is not that complicated.

WSU is on great streak in the last couple of years, no doubt they have have had better seasons than KU (Final Four and the streak). Marshall is doing what he need to do to get his team exposure and respect. I don't believe the hype that he hates KU, he is simply doing what is expected of him and what will make his fan base happy. I would be curious to know what Self an Weber say about WSU in private, it would not surprise me that is similar to what Marshall said in what he thought was a private moment. I don't care one way or another about WSU, but a state team, I want them to win when they play anyone else other than KU. Partisanship aside, Marshall is a seriously good coach and WSU is a solid team.

As far as playing them. Coach Self has made it very clear that KU makes the most money when it plays at home and even at Sprint Center, the money is less than half of what KU makes at AFH. I know that publicly WSU has said that they would play KU at a neutral side, but what I understand they really want is home and home games at AFH and Wichita. There is no way KU is going to give up a home game (and the corresponding income) every other year just to placate WSU fans.

Let's face it, the audience for a KU-WSU is purely regional and more specifically limited to the state of Kansas, while games with teams such as Utah command a bigger audience including PAC 12 country; it is really a no-brainer. Win or lose, KU gets no recruiting advantage in the state by playing WSU; all the top state players, including Frankamp, dream of playing at KU and AFH, not Wichita. KU gets considerably more exposure playing a team from another conference, preferably from a hotbed basketball state. WSU, on the other hand gets a huge boost by playing KU as it puts it in the same platform with an elite conference team rather than the pedestrian audience it gets while playing Missouri Valley teams.

In short, KU has nothing to gain by playing WSU and a lot to lose if WSU wins; on the other hand, win or lose, WSU has nothing to lose and everything to gain by playing KU. I really can understand why Self prefers not to play them.

@JayHawkFanToo private moment? If you are referring to the "c-hawk" name calling, it was on tv, I heard it!

@Crimsonorblue22

There were two instance where the comment was allegedly made, one was was on a luncheon with the Chamber of Commerce with no press and somebody allegedly captured with a cell phone although it was never proven to be true. The second was at a rally after winning the 2011 NIT Championship when he read a sign someone in the audience had. Here is the link...

I purposefully did not post it as a link because I don't want big YouTube window with WSU rally on the screen so you will have to cut and paste and form your own opinion. Coaches from elite programs can be very gracious and they get the press anyway; coaches from mid-majors do not get the press unless they are provocative. That comment made him popular with his fan base which it is what he is supposed to do, but not popular with KU fans who dislike him regardless. I personally don't see it as a big deal.

@ralster

Nice read (as usual)!

I think everyone in here knows where I stand.

I believe we should play them. We, actually, give them more respect by refusing to play them. It doesn't bother me when WSU fans clamor over KU's refusal to play them. They are acting like fans should act. They are acting the way KU fans would act if WSU refused to play them and Kansas was the competitive newcomer. What bothers me is I get out in the world, and I mix it up with college basketball fans from many areas of the country. And it turns out, those fans want to see this game, too. Fans everywhere want to see the potential of rivalry games. Fans everywhere like watching Kentucky vs Louisville, even if they aren't a fan of either school. Fans everywhere are jumping on the same bandwagon Shocker fans feel... Kansas is afraid to play WSU.

I don't have an argument back for this. I can say KU loses money, but that is a lie, and everyone and their dog (except other KU fans) realize that Kansas is giving up a future MONSTROUS revenue builder! Just ask Kentucky and Louisville fans.

We feel like we have a corner on quality basketball in this area, and that greed for ownership is costing us, big time.

We should want WSU to become a powerhouse every single year, and we should promote them becoming one. It doesn't benefit us to be the only quality basketball program in Kansas. It just doesn't. It's the same reason why fast food chains all huddle together. Competition actually helps programs get stronger.... not being exclusionary and alone on an island. Just like conferences. It helps Kansas to win the B12 conference every year, but it doesn't help our conference and in the end, even Kansas suffers, especially if we fail to have B12 teams reach the FF. It would help our conference more if someone besides Kansas made the FF.

I'm tired of arguing with people. This subject is like talking politics. I have problems with Republicans and Democrats... both parties seem to do as much harm to this country as the other, mostly because they refuse to work together. Basketball is the same thing. I venture to say that Kansas and WSU share responsibilities for the distance. But the growing pressure now is on Kansas to lay out the olive branch.

It is our own hatred towards WSU that will hold us back. It will also hold WSU back. It should be our goal to help the Shocks become a basketball powerhouse, too. That is good for our State, and we should fight for our State... especially since it is the NAME OF OUR UNIVERSITY!

I'm jealous of Kentucky. I'm jealous that they have built the absolute top rival game in college basketball. It helps brings millions and millions of dollars into both schools. It helps them recruit talent. It helps them with their brand. Meanwhile... we are out here asleep on the plains. Stuck with only one silly rivalry left... the KSU purple kitties. A game with very little prominence.

I miss having a real rival game. I don't miss Mizzou, because that went beyond rivalry.. that was just pure hatred, and it benefits us all to end hateful relationships. That relationship was different because of the history in the region.

@Kong I'll address one of your points. Referencing UNC playing Davidson is not same as the "jumping off the cliff" analogy. The point is that Self's explanation of exposure and money both apply to that example UNC plays Davidson, and I'm watching them play Eastern Carolina right now. Kentucky plays Eastern Kentucky, who we almost lost to last NCAA tourney. Somehow, someway, they are able to make it work from an exposure and money standpoint -- two peers, UNC and UK. It can work just fine for KU.

Hey, Coach Self, chicken hawks, is what you are. Chicken, chicken, chicken. Go squawk like a chicken. Run to your mommy. I'll get you your Barbie doll, if you want. How many different colors of panties do ya have?

Now, you can turn your back, and be the better man; or you can kick their ass.

@HighEliteMajor

But that isn't the point of the comment. The point is that just because someone else does something, it doesn't mean you have to. You say that Kentucky and UNC are playing instate teams of lesser stature. I believe you. But to be honest, this is the first I have heard about either of those games. So if I take your comparison to WSU, you will see that nobody would care about that either (other than regionally).

As someone else pointed out. We used to play them. They stopped it because they weren't competitive. If they stay a top ten team for another 3-4 years showing that they are a program and not a flash in the pan, then maybe they will be worth playing. But to play them just because they got hot for a couple of years, it just doesn't make sense to me.

@Kong I know that was your point. You misapplied why I pointed out UNC. It was not to say, they're doing it, we should. It was to point out that the "exposure and money" reasons Self has given are invalid.

You say no one would care, other than regionally -- as if that's a reason not to do it? Then eliminate much of our non-con, and much of our conference schedule.

Look, folks that don't want this like you can argue this 'till your blue in the face.

But your still chicken ...

@Kong What about us fans? The game is for the fans I thought and I, like some would love to see KU play Wichita and Missouri.

@Kong i think as many people across the nation would have as much interest in a KU-WSU matchup in any year as they would in watching KU-Rider, KU-Towson, KU-Kent St., or a number of other teams that have come in over the years.

@HighEliteMajor

I don't see how UNC playing a local team or Kentucky playing a local team prove Self's reasons to be invalid. KU would not gain any exposure or any more money playing WSU. I am not certain why UNC and Kentucky are playing those games. I know people point to Kentucky and Louisville as a reason that we should play Moo or WSU, but forget that they were forced to by the state legislature. Now it worked out as two programs are nationally good and the rivalry is nationally worthy. Moo and WSU are not consistently nationally worthy. I just don't see any reason to do it.

Similarly folks who want to do this like you can argue 'till blue in the face. The fact that nothing I have heard or read makes any sense to play them always boils down to taunting, seems to prove the point. There just isn't any real reason to.

@wissoxfan83

I understand that and accept that. But many fans do't want to bother with Moo anymore or WSU for that matter. What about them? Which ever way it goes, a percentage of people will not like it. If I accept that as fact, then it turns to what is best for the program

@Wigs2

Probably true. I have never been a fan of playing the cup cakes. I like tougher games overall with more value to the program. But some cup cakes are unfortunately necessary so that the team can work on things at live game speed and prepare for conference play.

In those situations, there is no benefit to a potential in state or border rival. Therefore, there is only the plus side for the program.

@Kong It seems that your opinion is that the only non-cons we oughta be playing every year is Kentucky, Duke, UNC, Ohio State, Arizona, UCLA, Mich St., Florida. Not gonna happen.

Agree with HEM, it's totally emotional.

@Wigs2
It would seem incorrect then. I do think there are numerous other non-con games to be played that are of value. For recruiting base, increasing market value, players homes, etc.

I don't live in, or near KU anymore. The emotion of playing in state rivals is long gone for me.

It is just a differing viewpoint. Emotion has nothing to do with it.

@HighEliteMajor I think you mean to say "YOU'RE still chicken."

Regardless, if you believe that, you've been drinking a little bit too much of what Shocker & Misery fans have been ladling out. And it sounds ridiculous and immature.

@HighEliteMajor

KU plays lesser state team every year. If I recall correctly KU plays 2 pre-season games against two much smaller teams every year, Washburn and Emporia this particular season; a programs that was started by Coach Williams and kept by Coach Self. KU also play another state program, KSU, at least twice every year and I can guarantee that outside the region the game does not create any interest; a game against WSU would create even less interest most years.

Yes, UNC plays Davidson and UK plays Eastern Kentucky and again, the audience for those games is largely regional; I personally watch when they play other elite programs but skip the games you mentioned. You might think the reason Coach Self gave are invalid, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but don't make it sound like yours is the only one that is correct. Coach Self has access to a lot more information (financial, marketing, PR) than either one of us have and I am sure the decision is not made uniquely by him in a vacuum but only after carefully weighing all the options and in consultation with Athletic Department personnel. Nowadays, KU is more than an Athletic program, it is also a "brand" that produces a huge income to the Athletic Department and needs to be protected and properly marketed.

We all know that you don't care much for Coach Self, but the "chicken" part is childish, petty and unnecessary. I am sure you were trying to make a point but I would like to think you could have found a better way.

I'd love to see KU and Missery play again. All they have to do is crawl on their hands and knees to Lawrence, kiss HCBS's feet and beg for forgiveness. First ten games will be played in the Phog and if they win 6, deem them worthy of a home and home series. Otherwise they continue to visit the Phog just like other schools looking for the exposure.

For basketball purposes, KU does not need to play either WSU or Mizzou. However, I think KU should consider playing Mizzou in basketball because KU needs to start playing Mizzou in football again.

For KU to become something other than an afterthought in football it needs a true rival and it needs a rivalry game that matters outside the state of Kansas. K-State is simply not good enough to be that rival. They aren't a national power and they don't have a national following. Mizzou doesn't have that, either, but that game matters outside Kansas. In my travels around the country I still run into people to this day that ask me who KU's main rival is now that Mizzou isn't on the schedule. A lot of people don't even think of K-State outside this region.

For that reason I think a Mizzou series would be beneficial to the KU brand.

For hoops, WSU only works if its a home and neutral site setup. Play them in Lawrence and in KC. They get the national stage, we get the normal gate. However, I doubt they would agree to this and I could imagine that it would not be feasible a lot of years. If the choice came down to playing Temple in Philly or WSU, I would rather have the Temple game. Same if there wasa was a chance to play somebody on the west coast. WSU doesn't open any doors for us, so playing them isn't a priority.

@JayHawkFanToo You don't need to start that crap again. Creating your own narrative and this "HEM doesn't like Coach Self" stuff. You can't even have fun with this. I'm just kidding around. I know, tough to comprehend.

But to all who don't want to play WSU -- just a bunch of clucking chickens.

!chicken.png ↗

And I belatedly apologize for my immaturity.!Baby.jpg ↗

@justanotherfan

"Play them in Lawrence and in KC."

We should play them in the Arena at Wichita, too. It holds just over 15000, just a tad below AFH, but it isn't their Shocker Koch Arena, so students have to pay full price, equaling or exceeding the gate in AFH.

What we give us is all the revenue from the potential rivalry.... everything from t-shirt sales to TV revenue. This game would quickly have national implications for viewership (similar to UK/UL).

It's not only money... kids go to the Kentucky schools because of the exposure... something we are blind to out here.

@drgnslayr Agree 100% on us needing a rival. But going down that road only gets me infuriated at the Big 12 for not adding Louisville back in 2011, and I'm already pretty ticked at the conference over the whole college football playoff narrative. Bob Bowlsby and his "It's clear that we were penalized for not having a postseason championship game. It would have been nice to have been told that ahead of time." Moron. How did he not know? Everyone else knew in advance that was going to come back and bite us. Typical Big 12. Reactive rather than proactive. Anyway, I digress...

WSU & Misery would be band-aids on the rivalry front. I think you overestimate how big the games would be when you say it would be similar to UK/UL. Misery has a century plus of showing us they can't hold up their end of the bargain. And a handful of good seasons don't prove WSU belongs in the conversation either. Maybe we can keep things going with Florida and/or Michigan St. That's my hope until the next realignment shake-up, or the NCAA dissolves, or whatever the next thing is that changes the landscape.

@HighEliteMajor

Maybe this is what you had in mind?

!Chicken.jpg ↗

@icthawkfan316

I agree. UK and Kentucky are both top tier programs with a long traditions, National Championships, consistent top 10 ranking and more than a regional following. UK is is currently considered the top basketball program and Louisville the most valuable program (Forbes) .

Anyone who thinks a KU-WSU or KU-MU would get national attention is clearly way, way overestimating. Neither MU nor WSU have a national following in basketball; MU is a perennial underachiever and WSU (so far) a flash in the pan mid-major. A KU-WSU game would be watched by KU and WSU fans and a few KSU fans hoping to see KU lose. A KU-MU game would have an even smaller audience since most MU fans are now football fans.

I would certainly hope that we all respect each other's opinions regarding the should we or shouldn't we theme that has developed here with regards to WSU v KU or PSU or Ft Hays, or ESU or whatever. At one time in recent years Jill Docking brought before the KS Board of Regent the matter of making it a legislative (Board of Regents) requirement that KU play WSU & regarding such, a couple of key facts must be brought to light.

1. She is a rep of the Wichita district so anything she may or can do to get more political support from her geographical region is clearly to her advantage.

2 It is a requirement that KU & KSU schedule in-state financially supported & in need schools for revenue generating requirements on a yearly basis. The actual dollar numbers I cannot find, but the universities are at their own discretion as to who & how they distribute their Regent required supplemental support. Some years we play ESU & some years PSU & some we play Ft Hays.

Roy Williams did not do this for any other reason than it was & still is a allegislative requirement by the Kansas Board of Regents & is a lawful obligation to the other state supported colleges in Kansas.

And if anyone on this site thinks that we could make more money for KU by playing WSU & Zenger is somehow holding back this process- I have real estate available in Florida !! Branding is exactly what it is & SZ would stab anyone possible to make an extra nickle, wooden or not. They make more money at AFH than neutral or Sprint sites so figure it out. ESPN, Fox, TWC & SZ are drivin the bus & as long as KU cannot make considerably more $$$ for ANY opponent on the road & the same at home, why do it. There's nothing to gain & even a little bit lost is too much. Would I like it-hell yeah? Do they care about me -hell no!! Outside of Kansas no one would shiv a git about this game? Absolutely not. And it's damn sure not what you'd call a recruiting hotbed, so why on Earth do it? Fans don't count to the U-get over it. It's all about the $$$ for the U & THAT IS the bottom line. Won't happen as long as the moneys not right but if it ever is, then it will.

This is all just chatter from not wanting to play WSU.

Every year we play turkey games, like in the Bahamas, that actually COST Kansas money. Those are not even revenue games. Gate has nothing to do with this. And if it did, we would already be involved in this series, because the math has been done, and a home/away/Sprint deal makes more money than playing 3 games in AFH. Already proven.

It is irrelevant that Louisville had a good past in basketball. This is always a shock to Jayhawk fans. Basketball isn't so much about the past, it is about the future. We live too much in the past. We think the world is going to bow down to us because we have Naismith. Naismith doesn't win trophies or sign television contracts.

WSU doesn't have a huge basketball rep from their past. So what. They are NOW, and college basketball is about NOW.

Actually, the deal should only happen if we can get a heavy guarantee that their coach will be around for the next few years. He has proven he knows how to build a winner there and he will help solidify the future of this rivalry. And a few more solid years of ball in Wichita will get their status on solid ground. Louisville... Louisville... oh yeah... they come from the MVC.

I got this right. And it is about thinking small and hating WSU, and in the process, hurting Kansas.

We can't generate a rivalry with another B12 school. Not to this level, and not benefiting the entire State of Kansas.

We will never compete against Kentucky... Never. They are a million times more progressive and on the ball, and what you are seeing now is just the beginning. By the time people here figure it out it will be way too late (if it isn't already). Kentucky has it all, and we put our beans on owning a piece of paper with the rules on it. And, btw, our conference sucks. This ship is sinking.

I'm not a gambling man, but if I was I know where I'd put my money on this one. And it ain't in Lawrence.

@drgnslayr so, if I understand this right- correct me if I'm wrong, but you aspire to be like Kentucky?
1. We gotta get drake!
2. More OAD's, and more OAD's that thought they were OAD's, but weren't cause they weren't going to be drafted high enough.
3. And.... If we schedule WSU, we will be progressive enough to be like Kentucky and it will be a rivalry? Selling tshirts for this rivalry will result in more revenue and increase the rivalry potential?
4. But.... We need to ask greaseball Marshall if he will stay?
5. Big 12 sucks, does that mean you like mvc?
6. Is that where you would put your money? Or would you give it, or sorry, put it on Kentucky?

@drgnslayr

Yes, we play in the Bahamas and Hawaii and Canada and Switzerland and France, why? Because it helps recruiting big time. If you give recruits an option of playing in the Bahamas or Wichita. which one do you think they will pick? All big time programs do it and not doing it would place KU at a disadvantage. Do we need luxurious new digs for the basketball program? No, but we do it because we have to keep up with the other eliet programs.

Yes, KU also played in North Dakota because it was the home of Jeff Bosche and in California where Drew Gooden came from...this was done to attract recruits although with the OADs, promising them a trip to their home state may no longer work and I don't believe it is done anymore.

Of course it is relevant that Louisville has a good basketball history, without it it is just another KU-KSU game with a local audience. Many of the North Carolina teams play each other since many are in the ACC and also Coach Williams makes it a point to play small state schools, but how many of those do we watch? Duke and North Carolina because they are top programs and not because they have an intra-state rivalry, that is of interest only to the people of North Carolina in the same way that a KU-KSU rivalry is of interest only to the people of Kansas.

Coach Williams is a fan of small towns (he grew up in one) and small schools and started playing local small schools as a way of helping them. Pittsburgh State, Emporia State, Fort Hayes, Washburn get more money from one game at AFH than they collect the entire year playing at home, it is the biggest boon to their budget, plus they can use the trip to the Cathedral of basketball as a recruiting tool. I think we can agree that the other two major schools in the state, KSU and WSU are not in the same situation.

I am aware that every other year a legislator from the Wichita area introduces legislation to force KU (and KSU) to play WSU; it goes nowhere, because all KU has to do is say that in exchange it will no longer play the smaller schools and the legislation will never pass. This has been going on ever since I remember and I have lived in the state for over 36 years. Also, the legislature does not control the schools, the Board of Regents does and they have no intention of upsetting the applecart.

Good points on both sides. I understand the business side is a totally separate analysis as opposed to the pure desire of fans to see a KU-WSU matchup (or KU-Mizzwho).

@justanotherfan Man!! No one has summed up KState so totally and perfectly as you did. They are nationally irrelevant. Not good enough. Outside the BigXII, nobody cares about KState. I travel a lot and my gut feeling ALWAYS comes up the same: *KU is on top of a small heap, with KSU and WSU buried under that small heap--the rest of the nation is much more enthralled with their own, bigger regional rivalries.
The truth about Snyder is he is not a recruiter, but simply a really good developer of talent. They always lose to the big boys, or need a down year by OU or TX to beat them. Frankly, it was embarrassing to see Colin Klein on the KSU sideline, and not even in the NFL. He couldnt do it even in KSU's big bowl game, although he had his 15min of paparazzi-type fame. KSU's performance against Auburn was embarrassing to watch, as they keystone-kopped away their chance at a winnable game against an SEC then-top5 team. Just couldnt do it.

Yes, KU is currently worse than KSU in football, but know that my resentment against KSU is mostly due to their fans' ignorance about their beloved ftball barely registering on the national scene. Yes, KSU fans may dislike KU fans' arrogance about basketball--but, the big difference is KU basketball IS nationally relevant.

The minute Snyder retires, they instantly are in the 'real' football horserace of trying to get better talent, like KU is trying to do now. Their so-called stability is because Snyder plays his plateaued-ceiling game very well. Its all he can do, as he cannot do anything else, and I can dare say that because in his damn-long timeline, he hasnt shown himself to be anything better than a C-grade/mediocre recruiter. I'd like to tell KSU people to "go study" the differences between Urban Meyer, Nick Saban, Bob Stoops...and Bill Snyder. Of course they wont get it. But as soon as Snyder is done, they'll be in the same boat as KU, in trying to get 4- and 5-star kids, as no one anymore will have the patience for the walk-on development timeline. Its easy: 4 or 5star kids could potentially contribute in their frosh/soph seasons, instead of waiting for jr/sr season productivity. Simply faster timeline. We see KU pick a (perceived) recruiter (Beaty) over a slow-traditional-build that Bowen likely would have built...

See Ron Prince era. Sure give Snyder credit for his stability, but my point is its a plateaued system. Not even the top program in its own conference. Dont use it as a f---ing model. Its about time KU football set its sights higher. KU AD looked at an SEC team's WR record setting resume by Beatty...so maybe we see SZenger already is aiming higher for a system that is more reproducible than Snyder's 1man, unique concoction. Going for a coach with knowledge and some performance at an SEC school. For that, I am thankful. Dont want a KSU redux/reboot. Double-dose of mediocrity out of KS, no thanks.

Leave it to KU to try to get our football to follow our own success in bball. To do that, you import or emulate the best, not a local middling level program next door, in our fly-over, low TV market state.

So about KU-WSU, while the fans may care, nobody else does, and out of KU's nonconf games, playing WSU could be a wasted opp. Its not fully about money, as Im sure the KU-WSU game could pack IntrustArena...its about more.

But the not-soft Self/KU fan that I am just would competetively like to shut those WSU fans up by beating their team...(& obviously feel much the same about those KSU fans w/their PurplePuritan blinders on).

RCJH

@JayHawkFanToo 3 - 4 years ago Jill Docking was still chairperson of The Board of Regents & as recent as early 2014 it has been Fred Logan, who in the mid to late 80's was a resident of Olathe, & may still be at present. I lived in Olathe 30 years, but have not since 2004. One of his boys played on an OYBA team of mine then. Entire family was always very cordial & professional & well mannered. Have had many pleasant experiences & friendships from public & scholastic sports in Olathe the last 4 decades & watched the town grow from about 25,000 to about 200,000. The first year the YMCA was forming in Olathe I was flattered to have been asked to help with the development of their youth basketball league by it's director and accepted. Have been out of that loop for about 20 years now, but those were really fun & rewarding years for me.

@ralster

"But the not-soft Self/KU fan that I am just would competetively like to shut those WSU fans up by beating their team"

Me, too!

I apologize if I ruffled any feathers in here. Everyone has the right to their opinion, and this subject is very strongly opinionated on both sides. That, in itself, probably says something, but I'm not sure what it is.

Again... sorry to all.

@drgnslayr No need to apologize. In fact, thanks for coming up with something that we can be passionate about, no matter which side we take. Now if you really want to stir the pot, start a thread saying why we should (or should not) bring back Mangino......

@drgnslayr I have to disagree with you regarding the past being irrelevant. At least to an extent. Here's why: when Roy left, there was obviously some anxiety about the future of the program, but we knew we'd be able to attract a top-tier coach. When Self leaves, it will be the same. It's a premier job. When Pitino leaves/retires, I think we can all agree that Louisville will be all right. Even if they swing and miss a time or two, they will eventually get it right. The same cannot be said when Marshall leaves Wichita State. That's one of the things that tradition buys you - a little more leeway in the present & future.

You also mention how Louisville came from the MVC. So did KU, KSU, OSU, Nebraska, Iowa, Misery, etc. So what? The conference is garbage now, especially with Creighton being the most recent to jump ship. The Shockers' affiliation with the Valley is just one of multiple reasons why sustaining their current level of success is going to be a steep up-hill battle. I agree the Big 12 sucks as well, but not to the level of the Valley. Not even close. I'd put my money in Lawrence every day before I bet on Wichita. To me that's the most baffling part of your post, how you say we will never compete against Kentucky, yet you somehow want to put WSU on level with us?

@drgnslayr said:

Every year we play turkey games, like in the Bahamas, that actually COST Kansas money. Those are not even revenue games.

Not sure why you think the early season tournaments are costing KU money. As it's pointed out in the link I'm providing, What's up with all these tropical early season basketball tournaments ↗, we do get paid to play in these games. And if UNI is getting 150,000 of the 2,000,000 then I'm sure your payout is based on your worth to said tourney. It also states that most conferences require member schools to participate in them.

Gate has nothing to do with this. And if it did, we would already be involved in this series, because the math has been done, and a home/away/Sprint deal makes more money than playing 3 games in AFH. Already proven.

I'd like to see the numbers on that proposal for myself. Not sure how H/H/H is less than H/N/A??? Are we getting $$ and then some for the away game that would make up for one less home game???

I believe KU needs to add an annual non-conference game against a worthy opponent. I already stated my desire to see us play MU, but it could be anyone that becomes a 'looking forward to it' type of game on the schedule. Illinois-Missouri is a good example, the aforementioned UK-UL game too. Wisconsin plays all its' in state D-1 rivals every year. They're always good games on the schedule (UW Milwaukee is not as competitive as it used to be). They're fan friendly and are considered rivalries. Colorado-KU could be one of these annual border wars. Maybe KU-Nebraska, or KU-Iowa. KU-Arkansas? They'd be good for TV, good for fans, good for our RPI, good for improving our chances of doing well in March.

@wissoxfan83 Duke wasn't bad?

@Kip_McSmithers

Coach Self has said before that KU makes at least $600K on every home game, $200K-$250K for games at Sprint Center and pretty much nothing at the away games of a home and home series since the payment is the return game, and KU has to pay the travel expenses including the charter jet it uses. KU plays one game a year at the Sprint Center for the same reason it plays a game in Colorado, to allow the local fan base watch the team live. There is zero financial advantage playing away from AFH.

@Crimsonorblue22 I'm sorry, I'm kind of dull today, I don't follow your comment? Rephrase please!

@Kip_McSmithers That's good information. I just wish it wasn't just about the money.

@wissoxfan83 : Not sure I follow you. Currently KU has the number 10 SOS with the number 4 RPI. Last year the same. So we aren't playing a non-con full of cupcakes like Syracuse. Currently teams can schedule 29 games (28 if you play in an early season tourney since tourney only counts as 1 game). KU has 18 conference games. 9 at home, 9 away. So of the 10 non-conference games KU typically plays 6-8 at home, the 2 neutral court games (CC and Sprint Center), and then two return games with teams in a scheduled H/H. Like someone pointed out. I'd rather we play a game in a place were we can gain MORE exposure like Philly or So Cal where there are always big time recruits in the area.

@Kip_McSmithers Just following the thread here of playing WSU or not and saying it wouldn't be bad to have an annual rivalry game outside of the league. I know we have a tough schedule which has improved in the last few years.

@Kip_McSmithers

I didn't realize the bounty was that high in the Bahamas.

"Not sure how H/H/H is less than H/N/A??? "

Here is the math:

3 games at AFH
16,300 X 3 = 48,900

3 games, 1 AFH, 1 Sprint, 1 Wichita Intrust Arena
16,300 + 18,972 + 15,000 = 50,272 and two of those games include no low cost student tickets

I'm certain this could be packaged at a higher cost. Brand the name of the series and charge higher ticket prices. Both team fans will be willing to pay a premium to support this rivalry. I see the average price for a ticket in Rupp for the "Battle for the Bluegrass" is now $848. Granted, we are lowly Kansas teams. Maybe we can get half that amount.

http://www.razorgator.com/blog/2013/11/05/top-13-non-conference-college-basketball-games-of-the-2013-14-season/ ↗

From foxsportsmidwest.com Frankcamp read...

" The No. 8 Shockers (4-0) are on a run of 24 straight appearances in the Associated Press poll, the longest such streak in program history, inching them ever closer to Marshall's desired status as the Gonzaga of the Plains. "

Wow, if we could beat these guys it'd really feather our nest...LOLOLOLOL!!!

@globaljaybird I had no idea they had 24 - TWENTY FOUR! straight AP appearances. WOW.

That's not quite half as many conference titles as we have........

@nuleafjhawk

KU is now #10 and WSU #11 in both polls.

I would say the Shlockers are the team I dislike the most ( at this moment ). I celebrate their losses, and wish them the worst. This, from a team I loved for years growing up, from Cliff, the XMan, and the whole bunch. When you insult us, no game for you.....

@JayHawkFanToo we really need to beat Utah-handily!!

@Crimsonorblue22

This team seem to like doing it the hard way though...

@KUSTEVE

The players have always been very respectful of KU in interviews and also at games they attended; they both played in St. Louis last year in the NCAA.

@JayHawkFanToo the wigs bros helped that!! I like the WSU kids. Just......

@Crimsonorblue22

I don't have a problem with WSU at all and I hope they do well, just not as well as KU. The better they (and KSU) do, the better the state looks. Keep in mind that we are the only state with at least 2 Division I schools that has sent ALL teams to the NCAA for several years now, and hopefully will continue to do so.

@JayHawkFanToo

I feel exactly the same as you!

I'm sorry for protracting this can of worms. We've had this discussion way too many times now, and I'm usually one of the instigators.

I'd like to play them because it would be an entertaining game, and most of the time we would win. We would always keep the chatter down, and over time, we would show clear dominance. No more bull about "chickenhawks!" That always sets me off and sends my blood pressure out the roof!

@JayHawkFanToo Exactly. The players aren't trashing talking, and running down KU - it's their big mouth coach, and their arrogant fan base.

@drgnslayr said:

@Kip_McSmithers

I didn't realize the bounty was that high in the Bahamas.

"Not sure how H/H/H is less than H/N/A??? "

Here is the math:

3 games at AFH
16,300 X 3 = 48,900

3 games, 1 AFH, 1 Sprint, 1 Wichita Intrust Arena
16,300 + 18,972 + 15,000 = 50,272 and two of those games include no low cost student tickets

Are you implying that in this hypothetical series that KU would get all of the gate at the Sprint and Intrust??? But not only the gate the concessions, merch, parking, ect.? Jayhawkfan claimed KU makes around 600k per home game and 200k for Sprint so really there's no way we can make cash on this. Just because the other arenas have more seats doesn't always equal extra cash because it's split way to many ways. It's too bad but there isn't cash to be made playing this series unless tv chips in the difference. You know anybody from ESPN?

@Kip_McSmithers

We can't play every non-conf game at home. I'm sure the math is different, but that math will be different playing ranked teams in AFH. They aren't coming to AFH for nothing.

I bet both schools in the "Battle for the Bluegrass" come out extremely well and better than just scheduling another home game with an irrelevant team.

If we really want to make a comparison we compare apples to apples and select a home-and-home with another team. How about Temple? Liacouras Center (Capacity: 10,206). We have that game coming up in a couple of weeks.

I will guarantee a big TV gate if KU plays WSU. I will personally make that guarantee. Even in year 1. This would be run through marketing and a theme name applied. Media would jump on board. The media feeding frenzy would begin.

I was in NY about 2 months ago, and chatted it up with some hoop fans. The question came to me... "when will Kansas play Wichita State?" I've heard it other places, too. It was never presented to me as a slam on Kansas. Basketball fans just want to see these games. Even in NY, it doesn't take much imagination to realize this could become a rivalry and be a good game to watch.

Fans everywhere like rival games. I know I do. I could give a flying f__k about UCLA and USC, but I also watch that football game. Same with UK and UL in basketball.

Kansas is missing the boat on what could be a great media event, big money maker, and a good recruiting tool.

We were just starting to really cash in on the Mizzou rivalry when Mizzou went renegade. Even though I dislike Mizzou, I was digging the whole "Border War" theme, and so were people far, far away.

@drgnslayr

I have to respectfully disagree with you. We watch the UK-Louisville primarily because both are top ranked teams and the rivalry play mostly to the regional audience. North Carolina plays Duke, Wake Forest and NC State, all same state teams and conference rivals but do we watch all these games? No, we watch UNC-Duke because they are usually highly ranked teams and the rivalry usually appeals to the regional audience, the others we usually ignore unless there is nothing else on TV. At one time when NC State was powerhouse, their games had a national audience...because...they were top teams and the rivalry part , once again was restricted to the regional/conference/state audience and the rest of the country couldn't care less; once NC Stae dropped from the top ranks, nobody outside the region really watches that game anymore.

If we play WSU, the game would have bigger audience if WSU proves that it is a top tier team for a lot longer than a couple of years; otherwise, the only people that would care are Kansans. KU pays a lot of money to teams that come to AFH with not return game.. Home and home series have a very low (if any) payout since the payment is the return game. KU makes more money playing The Little Sister of the Poor at AFH with no return game at their "church/gym/social activities center" than it makes playing WSU in a home and home series or even a the Sprint Center. Just about every game KU plays on the road is a home and home series; a lot of the non-con games that KU plays at home are home only with no return game. It's all about the money.

You have to consider that games played at the Sprint Center are not split two ways between the participating teams, there are split 3 ways with Sprint Center getting the lions share of the box office. When KU plays ta AFH it does not pay much for the use of the facility but when it plays at Sprint Center basically has to pay for rent/operation of the joint. The City of Kansas City pays close to $14M per year just for the bonds used to build the arena. If you factor about 140 events per year, that is one very 2-3 days, every event has to contribute $100k just to pay the bonds, and it does not even include the operating cost of the arena. You can see why they have to take a big cut from the pie. KU makes about one third playing at Sprint Center that it makes playing at home.

@JayHawkFanToo

"If we play WSU, the game would have bigger audience if WSU proves that it is a top tier team for a lot longer than a couple of years;"

Sorry... but your Jayhawk is showing. The rest of the country respects their ranking. Come on....

They could be ranked for 100 years and you still wouldn't respect the quality of their game.

I guess I'm the only basketball fan in the country (besides Shocker fans) that want to see this game.

@drgnslayr said:

They could be ranked for 100 years and you still wouldn't respect the quality of their game.

I think that is you attempting to characterize opposition so that your view is the only reasonable one. You have no way of knowing what that person believes with regard to how long it would take, other than they would like them to be more than a couple of years.

If we were to play WSU this year, it would get some play. Sure. But if they were to be a contender for several years, the play would be much greater and would be something of a national attention getter. The nation, in general, doesn't particularly care about two teams who are rivals if it has no meaning to anyone other than those two fan bases.

The KU Moo games were a good example. We all lived and breathed that thing. It had importance to us. Came out here to the East Coast, and it was irrelevant. All they knew about was Doook UNC. Why? Because year in and year out those two teams mattered. When they started to pay attention to the KU Moo rivalry because I mentioned it so much, they were shocked at the level of hatred that existed between the two fan bases and the history dating back to before the Civil War. But they were not aware of it, nor cared about it.

Rivalries are great. Rivalries are fun. Some are more healthy than others, but overall they are a good thing. I just don't see WSU (yet) as one.

@drgnslayr

I think you have me confused with someone else.

If you read my posts, I have written many times that WSU is a really good team and the real deal; most recently after their game against Utah. I have nothing but respect for the team. However, the program has to show consistent excellence and so far we don't know what is going to happen in another year or two. Remember when they used to be good in the 80's and then they disappeared from the scene and asked to stop the series with KU because of the beat downs they continued to take?

WSU is the second coming of Butler, remember them? They went to the Final Four two years in a row and there were hot...and now they are an also run and an afterthought.

Sure, I would like to see a game against them, but from KU's perspective and under the terms WSU wants (home and home) it does not make sense for KU, not financially and not PR-wise. KU has little to gain and a lot to loose, on the other hand, win or loose is is nothing but upside for WSU.

@drgnslayr Wrong slyr. @JayHawkFanToo & many others as well would love it to happen. When I was a kid they played about every year. "Beatdown in the Country" is what I'd call it. But if it ain't bringin' in the money from the East & West coasts, it ain't' gonna' happen. And Bill very well may have veto power too, so what can what else can we whimper about? Makin' money for the MVC or the BG 12 isn't exactly what you could call cuttin' the BIG BUCKS. Don't believe me, just ask SZ the next time over cocktails And don't settle for Courvoiser, go for Hennessy. His clientele can certainly afford the good stuff.