NOT!!!!!!!
Chalk it up...throw the tape in the trash, and get ready for the next one. Remind me...who's still in first?*

It's not the end of the world, but it could be the end of a long Conf. Championship streak.

You CAN'T give up a 14 point (or 11 at halftime) lead on the road to a much inferior (oh YES they are) team and expect to win Championships.

Creampuffs.

@nuleafjhawk I think our chances of at least tying for the Conf. championship are still pretty darn good.

@KUSTEVE You're right, it is not the end of the world. Actually it's one of those losses that might be expected. Regardless, we simply gave the game away. But not the end of the world. Really, it's a "let's just move on" kind of loss. There are some points to consider more long term this season:

1. Press Break: This should concern us heading into two games with West Virginia. Mark Jackson said, "Kansas has done a bad job handling pressure." Uh, yea. Our inability to handle the press was a main contributor to OSU making the run to get back in the game. WVU is not the team we thought. But they appear to be a bad match-up for us. Mason is showing a few cracks in the foundation, making a few uncharacteristically bad ball handling related turnovers. He is human. One important thing that caught my eye was that it was Greene, not Selden, that was in the two spot against the press. Just as Self did last season with Wiggins, Selden is moved further away from ball handling responsibilities. Graham and Mason, together, against WVU might be the best answer.

2. Jamari Traylor: I missed the first few minutes because of the run over from the prior game. So I must have missed a few of his rebounds. Today, he managed 6 rebounds and 8 points. Both are the exception to the rule. But it was his 6 turnovers that overshadowed his better than normal statistical day. From travels, to losing the ball, to offensive fouls, to bad passes. The worst turnover was his last turnover, which came at 2:35 left. And his defense is just really bad sometimes ... go to 4:20 of the second half and watch Nash go right by him. If Cliff can't overtake Traylor, we know how this ends. I know there are some Traylor fans. I'm a fan solely because of his story. But from a basketball perspective, I'm astonished that we're in a position that we have to rely upon this guy for 20+ minutes a game. He'll have some nice peaks ... but they are few and far between. Aside from playing small, assuming Cliff doesn't break out, we're just stuck.

3. Wayne Selden: Hmmm .. might be trending up. I love how Van Gundy was saying that he looks like a pro shooter. He's right. Credit to the KU coaches. Last season, he was pulling the ball back over his head. Did not look like a pro shooter. Can we imagine how good Wayne can be if he finishes at the rim? The uptrend is encouraging.

4. Brannen Greene: Greene goes 3/5 from three, and plays a career best 29 minutes. You know what I'm going to say -- how does he shoot only five three pointers? No, before anyone says it, OSU wasn't playing great defense, and taking him away. Greene turned down two early shot clock looks.

5. Three Pointers: You knew this was coming. We shot 20.. But this game clearly called for more. This team calls for more. Ellis goes a horrible 4-12 from the field. One was a lob dunk (make), one was an 18 footer (make) and one was a three (miss). Take those away, for his near the basket efforts -- 2/9. Our team was 11/30 ... 37% on two point shots. We were 50% on three point shots. Did we see any Four out, one in offense this game? No. All High-Low stuff. Cliff, who was the most effective guy inside going 4/5, only played 16 minutes. Traylor, who had a good day for him shooting , was 3/7. And this is how it will be. Van Gundy said today that we were witnessing "the power of the three point shot." That's true, until you don't shoot them.

6. Bill Self Just Talks: Before the season, Self said that this team would "shoot more threes than we've maybe ever shot." On January 31, Self said quite clearly that we are not an inside-out team. Then, this week, he says that we need to keep our three point rate at 30% of our overall shots. He also said, “Usually we play inside-out, and that's how I want to play,” Self said. “Even if we don't shoot inside, at least play behind throwing it inside, and we haven't done that near as much this year." Up until his "we're not an inside-out team" thing, he rattled nearly weekly about getting it inside. He just talks.

7. Bill Self And Dogma: Dogma is a set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. He believes his dogma. He won't relent. Three pointers are the enemy. It's as if he feels threatened by them. You never hear him saying, "Boy, I'm glad we can hit threes." In truth, he just doesn't like three pointers. He will continue to throw it inside to his best post player, who goes 2/9. Ellis cannot score with any consistency inside, and plays small. He thrives on the perimeter. Alexander doesn't play much, and isn't effective inside much of the time. And Traylor/Lucas are (sorry) simply not high D-1 players offensively. This season is such an obvious example of a coach that simply cannot let loose of his core principles, for the betterment of the team. Those principles have carried him to great success, but refusing to regularly and consistently unleash the offensive strength of this team will ultimately be its undoing. Unleashing the strength helps mask a weakness, but it allows that weakness to be at least turned neutral. Today, 20 three pointers was just not enough. In many games, 15 will be enough. Heck, 10 works for me if we're able to score consistently inside and win. But for this team to reach peak offensive efficiency, Self has to have an open mind to adjust game to game. Big adjustments. Self went with the different scheme early against ISU. Great results. Today, he refused to do so. Look at the last 5 minutes of the game. Selden makes a three pointer with 4:50 left. We don't shoot another three pointer until Mason's attempt with 13 seconds left. It is absolutely puzzling.

8. No Denying: There is no denying how this team functions best offensively. That's what's interesting. Despite the diversity of opinions here, there has been no one that has made a defense of the inside-out approach with this team -- this team. That is perhaps because the results are undeniable.

And please, please ... let's not blame our loss on missed free throws.

This is just a loss. An expected loss, perhaps. But the way we lose and perform sheds great light on what to expect as we move forward.

The question is, why can't Bill Self embrace what are truly our strengths offensively? I wish I knew.

@HighEliteMajor Jamari. It's a real bad day to discuss Jamari, imo. At least it would be for me, so I will abstain from comment about Jamari until my perspective improves.

@HighEliteMajor Hem, I sure wouldn't blame missed FTs as the cause for the loss...there are a lot of reasons....turnovers, bad execution. But the missed FTs were, unfortunately, part of the package. Yep, I get it, you can't always shoot FTs well. ...those will come and go.....but they were bad today.

@HighEliteMajor Disagree on a few points:

• First, OSU was defending the 3/perimeter well. You'll never get me to believe that Self went into the locker room and said "well, we're up by 11 shooting the 3 well, so STOP! What are you doing? We're an inside-out, hi-low team!" Or whatever equivalent that you think was said to discourage the team from shooting 3s.
  We think Greene to be some unconscience assassin from the outside, but when did he turn down those two opportunities? After he missed his first one. I could see it in his body language that he second-guessed himself out of at least one of the attempts.

• Is Selden really trending up? His outside shooting is, no doubt. But aside from that, is ANY part of his game what we thought it would be? A top 10, McD's all-American out of high school, and he's been reduced to guy who can't find offense inside the arc, can't handle the ball, and is inconsistent on defense. Didn't grab a single rebound today. Sorry, the outside shooting is nice, but we've got that covered with other guys. That's not what this team needs from him.

• Missed free throws is a part of why we lost this game. Is it the sole reason? Of course not, but the misses hurt us. Frank missing the front end of a one-and-one in the second half was tantamount to another turnover given the circumstances.

I do agree we function better when shooting the ball from 3. But you can't deny that teams can game plan to stop or slow that down. That has been one of my fears as we have transitioned to this type of team. Other teams in the conference have taken notice, or do so within the game, and once that is taken away from us we are lost.

So my question is: does Self have enough in his basketball repetoire to expand the offense playing to maximize looks from the outside? It might not be a question of him wanting to, it might be a question of him feeling confident to be able to do so adequately. Last season when debating whether we should switch to a zone defense I made the argument that zones are not as easy as saying "go guard this area", and that to play zone competently you have to practice it and be coached it just like anything else, and that maybe Self didn't have that in his bag of tricks. How many years have we seen Faylor's inept zone despite what should have been adequate personnel to execute it? Probably because Scott Drouche is a lousy coach and can't teach it properly. It could be the same thing with this "outside-in" approach. You can't just say "stand outside and shoot when you're open." You have to run offense to get those looks, to screen and have the right motions. Could be that Self is just not that comfortable teaching it and so looks must come from our normal offense.

Anyway, just theorizing, but I don't think he "doesn't like three pointers" or thinks they're "the enemy". I just think there may be limitations on his coaching ability.

Well, out-coached again. The book seems to be 'press Kansas.' If we do get into the front court, we never manage to get into any kind of offensive flow. And this from a coach who says we don't press because a good team will beat the press for easy baskets. (And advocates for a 30 second shot clock) Bill should probably just plead the Fifth if he's ever asked about pressing again.

And I don't think I saw a single play run for a 3pt shooter until the last minute, if you wanna call that a play. Granted, setting Brannen on the low block and running him across the lane between a couple other guys worked in the Oklahoma game, when his defender got caught up in the traffic in the lane, but if your team mates aren't going to make the slightest move to set a screen, but just hope the defender gets bogged down in traffic, well, you don't have to be Malcolm Butler to jump the play and keep your guy from getting open.

You can't just have your shooters hang around outside the 3pt line and hope the defense is gonna lag off them.

Maybe I am just too grumpy, should probably wait until tomorrow to comment; however, six minutes into the second half I declared to my empty bottle of Bud Light, "I think our man Self got outcoached at halftime by one of the league's weenies!" Either that, or we are working too hard at practices. Okie lads outhustled us all to heck in first 12 minutes of second half. (I feel like Ol' Roy every time I print that work HECK. But I usually manage to keep my exclamations fairly clean, in tribute to the quality of this fine site.)

@KUinLA Predictable.

Do you only show up after losses to blast Self? Has anyone EVER seen this guy (or girl, idk I guess) come in here and offer anything constructive, or contribute to a debate, or to celebrate a victory?

I haven't, dating back to the kusports site..

Part of the enjoyment of being a KU fan is we win a heck of a lot more than we lose. Feel free to embrace the good once in awhile too.

Or not. See you after the next loss.

@icthawkfan316 I'm guessing Ned would rather have ford for a coach. Thx!!

@icthawkfan316 Maybe Rodney in disguise ya think? One thing for sure he gets off on Bill bashing.

@icthawkfan316 I'm guessing you stirred the hornets nest as he now has more profile views than posts. And after reading his posts there I'm inclined to agree with you.

Forte had the flu and we played the last 5 minutes like Germaphobes.

@KUSTEVE Exactly. Yeah that game was a big disappointment BUT we are still in first and I dont honestly believe Coach Self will let them lay down and give the title to the next best team. On the other hand, he better rip his players asses tomorrow and make them ALL run the stairs in AFH three times over. A public comment by him about how biased the officiating was in that game would be nice too.

This is one of those games that we can't over-analyze. One of those road losses that happens in a long conference season. Truth is we could have blown them out regardless of the game-plan. I just thought we played really sloppy and lazy at times, which gave Okies the momentum they needed.
We're still in the driver seat for #11. We'll be fine.

@icthawkfan316 - You said, "So my question is: does Self have enough in his basketball repetoire to expand the offense playing to maximize looks from the outside? It might not be a question of him wanting to, it might be a question of him feeling confident to be able to do so adequately."

I want to focus on this important part of your post.

Unequivocally, I think yes, he could. Whether he feels confident enough, yikes, I'd hope so.

From a set plays stand point, we've seen Self script three point looks before. But I know your question is based on his offense.

I would say that his offense is a true inside-out, feed the post focus. But very importantly, there is the "out." It's taking advantage of that. How many times has the ball come from the post to a three point shooter this season? Very few.

With that, in his motion offense, all Self would have to do is install variations or additional "rules." I know you know the game quite well. So you know, with any true motion offense there are rules that govern the movements of each player, based on certain situations and ball location. In Self's offense, one of the apparent rules, for example is that when the ball moves to the block from the wing, the classic post feed, the high post player to the opposite side of the lane if he isn't there already, and the perimeter player at the top of the key rotates a bit to the weak side. This sets up a possible two man game.

In a few prior posts, I have described how three points look can be gained within our offense. Here's an easy one that Self utilizes (I think this a rule). When the ball goes to the post from the wing, if the defender turns his back on the perimeter player, the perimeter player slides to the corner for a possible three. Here's an easy addition.

Instead of the high post player standing stagnant on the weak side, or sliding down to the block, he moves hard to the strong side and sets a screen for the post feeding perimeter player, looking for an open three look. If the defender fights over the screen, the perimeter players cuts to the hoop. If he goes under, well, that's three. The proper angle is gained by the perimeter player moving the corner after the feed.

There are scores of possibilities within our offense to adjust a few rules, or add some options.

Back early in the season, I was even saying that we didn't need to play four out, one in. I am still totally fine with our offense if we work within that offense to get more three point looks. Self, though, has the four out, one deal hat in his bag of tricks.

Literally, I think it's as easy as Self prioritizing it.

Question: I didn't sense at all that OSU shut down the three point line in the second half. We took more three pointers in the second half, didn't we? I'll rewatch the game, but I recall two specific instances where I was curious as to why Greene didn't gun.

And yes, I do think Self puts in limitations many times. Shot clock, etc.Against Utah second half, after we missed some early threes in second half vs. OU ... I think he told the guys where and how they need to get their shots. But that's wasn't my point here. I think you identified it -- I don't think he works to get our guys those looks. We worked to get the ball inside.

I don't think it's the end of the world, but it makes me wonder if I reposted "How's the season going to end?" again (it was a lively discussion this week) if there would be a noticeable trend towards an earlier exit? I'm leaning that way just to prove how fickle I am.

The word to describe todays loss to me was dumb. We made so many dumb plays down the stretch. Dumb turnovers, dumb shots, dumb FTs. I know this is dumb, but it's what I've got!

The sky isn't falling, we are still in 1st place and we control our own destiny. Conference road wins are always tough to come by, esp. at GIA. So, a loss there isn't that unexpected and it isn't the end of the world. And, the Hawks are consistently better road warriors than anyone else in conference.

But the way we lost is still very disappointing. It's one thing if the other team hits their shots and just outplays you. Then it's hats off. But, when you make 1/3rd of your 2pt shots, commit 18 turnovers, shoot barely 50% from the FT line, don't handle pressure (really wasn't much of a press) and make bad decisions down the stretch, it just really disappointing.

But, as badly as we played, the game was still winnable. That's pretty remarkable. But it's also remarkable that the guys we were most counting on coming into the year - Ellis and Selden - simply can't be counted on game to game.

@globaljaybird I'm not sure who this Rodney is that gets referenced here occasionally. Not sure if he was posting towards the end of my days over there or not, but I don't remember him from before. I went over to KUsports and found one of his posts, and no, I don't believe it's the same guy. KUinLA, or KULA (as he was on kusports) has been posting for years. Different avatar, different language, just don't think it's this Rodney character.

And look, I'm not someone who worships Self and thinks he can do no wrong. He has flaws, limitations, makes mistakes, etc. But to focus on those to the exclusion of everything that is great about him as a coach is just a witch hunt. To this guy, it's like KU has won 83% of its games these last 11+ years in spite of Self, and not because of him.

They took a big crap and now move on...Let's not repeat against TT.

@truehawk93 TT is not bad, we will have to play hard and hustle!

@Crimsonorblue22 said:

@truehawk93 TT is not bad, we will have to play hard and hustle!

I agree we'll have to play hard and hustle, but TT did lose 75-38 today against ISU. That's pretty bad!

@icthawkfan316 but they beat ISU last week at home, right?

@Crimsonorblue22 I'd forgotten about that I guess, or thought it was TCU maybe. Point taken.

So consider how mad we are after the OSU loss today, then consider how Iowa St. fans must be kicking themselves knowing their team is potentially this much better than Tech yet gave that one away on the road.

Such is life in the Big 12 I guess.

@icthawkfan316 difference is home and away. Just switched over to WSU and CF's still sitting on bench, what do u think will happen to him?

@Crimsonorblue22 I don't know. He'll be eligible second semester next season, as a junior, right? So he'll have one year/semester playing behind VanVleet & Baker, then maybe his second and final season there he'll be able to start at one of the guard positions. He could very well flourish, especially against the lousy competition he'll face in the Valley.

Not sure what will come of his DUI charge. Probably nothing as it relates to the team. He'll have a year to get it behind him before he's eligible. Not like Marshall would suspend him for any games next year I wouldn't think.

@icthawkfan316 or will he have 3 years? I forgot. I thought he left in time so he wouldn't lose his soph year. Not sure. Just wondered what Marshall would do w/him.

I only want to know one thing:

What happened over half time? That was the softest basketball I've ever seen this team play in the first part of the second half, when OSU sort of fell in to a 11 point run.

It did really seem like they had taken a nap at halftime, or smoked some killer herb, or just decided to not come out and play.

If this was boxing, and a fighter suddenly quit like that it would be under investigation by the boxing commission as a betting conspiracy.

They did a bit better after that, but the damage was done.

I'd like to say it was the heavy pressure applied by OSU... but it wasn't. In fact, they came out slow, too, but bounced on us after it was apparent we weren't going to play.

I could never coach these guys. I would have called time out a few minutes into the second half and I would have taken my starting 5 and told them to go to the locker room because their day was finished. They can wait on the bus. The other guys would have been motivated and probably won the game.

Could Self had said something to them that made them all just decide to come out and protest with super soft play?

I am really lost here. Maybe someone in here can clue me in.

I know what you mean. And I really get upset when they play so crappy in stretches.

@icthawkfan316 This KUinLA is one of the maybe a handful of downers on buckets, maybe even less than that. I don't mean to be facetious, but we have had very few bashers, trolls, whatever you want to refer to them as. People are mainly very polite & respectful & language is mostly a non issue kept to about a pg 13 level. Now when on the subject of misery, language may not get to a blue level, but maybe chartreuse or thereabouts

@globaljaybird Yeah this site is great.

And again, there are definitely times when it is OK to be down on this team, certain players, coach Self, etc. I don't ever want to come off like I expect this site to be a collection of cheerleaders just varying ways to say "good job!" I just kind of roll my eyes at people who are just haters and never have anything good to say.

@KUSTEVE

Thank you sir. I was half expecting to log on to KUBuckets and start a topic on how sad I was. Watching KU lose in grand fashion and watching UK yet win again left me somewhat sad. Yet your simple no nonsense words have renewed me. :)

@icthawkfan316 Sure we all pick nits & no one likes a peckerwood that just agrees with everything. 99%of the rats here agree to disagree most all of the time. That's what makes this such an informative discussion site. I learn new things here every time I log on.

This reminds me of the TCU game where KU shoots great in the first half against a home team that is not playing well in the first half. The good shooting by the Hawks covers up blemishes where KU could have opened up an even larger lead because the home team was not playing that well. Then the home team plays a much stronger second half and KU struggles ugly. This time KU gets beat.

OSU is better than TCU so that is part of the lesson. The other part is that you have to play strong and smart in the first 5 minutes of the second half in each and every game of the season. A great team must own those minutes each night coming out of the half time break. Own those minutes in all of the games, all of them. Win the first and last 5 minutes of each half.

KU was so dead in the first five minutes of the second half they looked like kids. The KU players have to know that 7-9 in the first half from three against a home team that went 0-9 needs to be protected with solid D and smart play on the offensive end. KU had their best shooting half behind them so you have to play smart on offense and tough on defense when you are playing on the road. These young KU players gave another lead away with zero fight. Poof: all their good work given away. OSU was going to go into the second half tough, hard, defending their home court and KU did nothing to match the effort.

@icthawkfan316 So do you disagree with what I posted or do you just not like the fact that I posted. I noticed that REHawk posted the exact same thing about 'outcoached' at the exact same time that I did. Are you gonna take him to task also?

And what's unconstructive about saying Bill needs to figure out how to beat a press and how to get his 3pt shooters open? Of course, I don't think there's any 'debate' about that, so I guess I'm not contributing to that 'debate.'

@KUinLA Interesting that you didn't answer my question but ask a bunch of your own. Guess your failure to answer pretty much answers it for me. The difference between you and REHawk is he is here often and isn't a one-trick pony just saying "Self sucks". If you were here for any other purposes than to do that yourself you'd know that.

@icthawkfan316 Okay, I can't even figure out what you're talking about at this point, lol.
I know you are, but what am I?

Go to bed and get some sleep, buddy--it's late.

I'm always sad when we lose, but as much as I hated listening to Van Gundy, he had one good thing to say before I couldn't take him any more and switched the sound over to Bob Davis, and that was, the loss to Kentucky, was the perfect breakdown to give a coach a blueprint as to what he has and how to build on it. Jamari had to be in the game because wishing that Cliff is the one is just wrong. His telegraphed, top of the key pass to Greene allowed me to see almost a second ahead of time why Self needs hair plugs. Watching him try to guard Nash and Cobbins was painful. Jamari has come a long way but he will never be more than a big energy guy, however, he is actually more trust worthy tha Cliff. Our Freshmen were Freshmen in a road environment where even 2/3 of a usual crowd, watching a desperate team go crazy as their early press success led them to an even greater effort. Self had to play the hand he was dealt. Hopefully, Kelly, Cliff and Devonte haven't hit the Freshman wall. Jamari and Brannen played against the press because they had to. I believe in Coach. This is a game that will make us better. I predict that more than 1/2 hour will be spent on breaking the press. WVU, by the way gave us # 11 yesterday. If anyone splits with us it will be OU.

@wrwlumpy Well, I have to ask the obvious question...you're not worried about ISU?

You're right, but OU impresses me more right now.

****@icthawkfan316 Predictable.

Do you only show up after losses to blast Self? Has anyone EVER seen this guy (or girl, idk I guess) come in here and offer anything constructive, or contribute to a debate, or to celebrate a victory?

I haven't, dating back to the kusports site..

Part of the enjoyment of being a KU fan is we win a heck of a lot more than we lose. Feel free to embrace the good once in awhile too.****

Slam dunk - I thought it ...you wrote it. I would've added " Debbie Downer", or " Negative Nelly", but your response was more measured and mature than mine would've been.

@HighEliteMajor

"This is just a loss. An expected loss, perhaps. But the way we lose and perform sheds great light on what to expect as we move forward."

Well said and is exactly how I feel about this game. We gave them the game, we've given every road game to the other team for the taking except Texas. This is how we played at ISU, Baylor, TCU and now Oklahoma St. Notice the trend? We suck on the road, PERIOD.

Missed shots & turnovers lost this game and maybe a little pathetic defense thrown in there. The sequence in the 2nd half from the start to about the 10 minute mark was POOR coaching. Self's didn't find a way to stop the bleeding he only seemed to encourage it. I think we had 4 straight possessions without a shot, that's reminiscent of last years squad against Florida. We missed something like 7 missed shots and now were down 4. The game was over then, I knew it I'm sure others did too.

The only reason this didn't turn into a 15 point game the other way is because OSU is really terrible.

I said they needed one of their role players to step up well they got a combo of Luck shooting from Hickey and strong play from Newberry. Those performances won them the game.

We absolutely suck with pressure. They stopped us from running any tempo off made baskets and that totally made us a halfcourt team which we struggled with mightily. We got away aggressive play to the basket or drive to set up shooters. Mason for one of the first times yesterday showed how much he still needs to improve on being the PG. Some very poor play from him yesterday other than made 3 pointers. You think their pressure is anything, wait until West Virginia gets 25 turnovers on us. WVU isn't playing well, but yesterday says exactly how we play on the road.

I don't want to sound all negative, but these are the things that beat us in March. These are the games we should win that cement us as being the best team in the league. But it clouds doubt when you play so poorly against an average team and let one slip away. I will be shocked if we don't come ready to play tuesday again on the road. Another place we tend to play down to competition. Let's all move on now....

This is the place to let out all your bad juju.

Get it out here and now.

We'll all feel better and we'll put this behind us. And we should all give allowance to those who need to vent out. There is a lot of stuff to process.

Kubuckets is not a lynch mob site... but we do have the luxury of not being affiliated with anything commercial or the university. So this is the place to vent out stuff just to feel better and get on with it.

I'm not going to get down on anyone for saying anything right now. It's best to let things out. Healthier.

Once things are out, we can start rebuilding some trust and spirit.

Could it be that this loss will help these young kids?

This is one of the youngest teams in college basketball. They don't have so many losses to draw from. Seems they will have a let down every X amount of games.

What alarmed me most about this loss was Frank Mason... our rock.

He seems to be wearing down. We were 5 days without a game, and he looked exhausted. He made mistakes he seldom makes. I think many of us have seen this coming over the past several games.

The question is.... if Frank is now only firing on 7 cylinders, what is the chance he will soon be firing on only 6 cylinders?

It is crystal clear that Self needs to lighten his minutes now... right now. next game. And he needs to pull him off of the extra drives to the hole. Frank has been the savior for this team all year and it's time the other guys step up and save Frank now. Freshmen need to man up now, but even more, what about our most senior players, like Perry? He had been coming on, but he reverted back into being mostly invisible this game.

Kansas needs to look at some areas where they are weak, and they need to protect those areas. For example, Wayne's shot is coming around and we are all thankful for that, but his dribbling skills are very much lacking. He had at least 2 dribbling TOs in this game. And we've seen him make many ill-advised drives to the basket this year. It is a pity to handcuff part of his game, but someone needs to set him straight because this is really hurting the team.

BamBam's role in the offense of coming out top needs to be reassessed. First.... he's not an outside shooter, so pulling him out top isn't really effective. His man on D just mushes back in the lane to block the post area. BamBam is not a skilled passer. He is fine when others are wide open and he isn't sped up, but when the game is on the line and our opponent steps up to play some real D, he becomes a liability. He is best used as a slasher, and in that role, he actually becomes a legitimate scoring threat.

We are going to need to pick up more offense from players NOT named Frank.

This team is NOT the team we had in '08. We can't constantly run the top of the key weave. Teams are figuring out that they know what will happen next so a defender has started to step out in front of the next KU player to receive the ball. I can't believe it has taken 10 years for defenses to figure it out.... but now they know. It is a "flow" type movement, and the guy with the ball just wants to finish out his movement and pass. It is beyond being telegraphed.

Last... it would be great if this team could carry a chip on their shoulders again. I think we carried a small chip after Kentucky, because no one took them serious for a while. The Temple game provided a little extra momentum. These guys need to think to themselves.... does it take a complete shellacking by another team to get these guys motivated moving forward? Really?

This is a great time for these guys to call a team meeting without the coaches. This is a great time for one or two guys to step up and take charge. What would really help the most is if Perry could step up and verbalize leadership to this team. He is the less likely guy and that means it has the most potential for helping get these guys fired up. They need to prevent having a big skid right now. There are many tough games left, and this team is lacking leadership and direction. Add that into their youth and we have the potential for a horrible skid and #11 quickly becomes out of reach. They should see that now, while they have time to get it together.

@wrwlumpy After your comment, I did what I always do at this time of year....look at the remaining schedules of our competition and try to predict how they might finish......a worthless exercise, I know, but kind of fun.
OU (and I agree with you on how they are playing) has @OSU @KSU, @ ISU, and us at home. Unless we beat them, I can see them only losing to ISU and finishing with 5 losses. ISU has a tougher schedule as they play at OU this week,@ OSU, @ Tex and @ KSU. I could see them, in theory, only ending up with 4 losses. Either way, our margin for error just got smaller.

Lost by 5.

18 TOs.

That is 18 times we didn't even get a chance to shoot!

DEFENSE STARTS WITH OFFENSE!

Even a great defensive team cannot get 18 stops to make up for 18 TOs.

TURNOVERS ARE OFFENSIVE STOPS.

@Jesse-Newell, your stats got you a solid prediction on this loss. It is time for spatial QA. It is time for some SPATIAL QA.

We need a TURNOVER MAP.

Where do TOs occur on the floor and let's not go there. Let's go some where else?

Are playing two point guards helping this?

Do we need to play 3 when another team goes small and pressures us, or just use one PG and go long and overhead pass it around the floor where they can't reach high enough to strip or pressure is into bad passes?

MAP....TURNOVERS....NOW....PLEASE!!!

I just lost my win out prediction.

The Emperor is buck naked and facing an angry @REHawk!! 😱

Map me a TO map, please!!!!!

😀

Still sticking to my tourney predictions. If we were to go back 2 months ago, and look at the standings and say we lost to OSU at their place, and we are still one game ahead, I would have taken that in a heart beat! Flat games happen. Even though I was extremely frustrated, lets put it into perspective.

The thing I noticed is why Mason is getting a free pass for this game? His shot looked better with his 3s, and got a nice steal, but that was it. He came out flat. Missed important free throws, didn't push the tempo, never beat his man off the dribble but when he did, missed floaters. Frank is still a stud and will continue to drive this team. However, tonight he was not himself. Him and Perry had games that killed us.

It's the end of my prediction,

As we know it.

It's the end of my prediction

As we know it,

And I feel fine...

--R.E.M.bate 1.0

😄🎱

"They need to prevent having a big skid right now."

We play TT on Tuesday in Lubbock.

Could this be our "TCU" game?

Could this be our 3-game dip?

@drgnslayr I think we're going to have a lot of "dips" until Oubre, Traylor and Selden figure out how to play basketball. And they're not alone, just the three worst offenders in my book right at this moment.

@Crimsonorblue22 On CF, he has 2 1/2 seasons left. Since he enrolled and attended school the first semester, that counts, whether he played, or not. The rule is each player has 5 seasons to play 4, unless there is a medical redshirt. He'll be eligible after the conclusion of the first semester in the 2015-16 season.

@jaybate-1.0 HA!

For me the sky isn't falling because this is not a loss in the NCAA tournament. If we beat Oklahoma St. yesterday and then go on to lose in the 2nd round to a team like Stanford I tend to forget about a great road win in Stillwater. If we lose yesterday (like we did) and go on to a Final 4 I could care less about this game and I will probably forget it even happened.

I certainly enjoy the ride and I watch every minute of every game with pure enjoyment win or lose, but for me and most of the posters on this site it is all about how we perform in March. If we lose 5 more games in the regular season and lose our first round game of the Big 12 tourney and get a 7 seed and then somehow turn it on in the NCAA I honestly don't care. It is all about the year end. I'm obviously thinking of UK and UCONN when I say this but it is possible. Improbable but possible.

Speaking of March as HEM and other posters often site it is much easier to get to the Final 4 with a 1 seed. A loss like this certainly hurts our chances of getting a 1. UK, Gonzaga, Duke, Virgina, Wisconsin, Zona (even though they lost), Nova...these teams are probably all ahead of us if we don't come close to winning out. Maybe only 1 more loss on the road. At WVU or at OU would be the toughest games left. If we win one of those and win out at home we still have a shot. RCJH.

To me, it's not as much as the number of threes we took, or didn't take...it's a matter of handling the ball. We are not a good team when we turn over the ball. I don't know what is going on with Devonte, but his whole demeanor has changed, along with his play. I think Frank is gassed....exhausted, and was making mistakes we haven't seen all year. I think Jamari should not be allowed to touch the ball outside of 10 feet in the paint. And Wayne...love the 3 stroke, where's your head at handling the ball? We lost because we gave them a tremendous number of extra opportunities, many of them layups, or easy shots. We got out toughed by an inferior team. Not the end of the world, but I don't feel nearly as good about our ability to handle pressure. We looked like that lost team in the NCAAs last year in the 2nd half.

**@jaybate-1.0 Lost by 5.

18 TOs.

That is 18 times we didn't even get a chance to shoot!**

You snuck in there, and I missed your more eloquent post than mine about turnovers. Great minds think alike!!!

@icthawkfan316 Did you see the quote from Greene earlier this week?

"Greene said Self allows him to fire away 'as long as it’s in the flow of the offense. His main thing is get the easiest shots. Sometimes me shooting a long three is our best chance at that point. Wherever the shot clock may be, certain parts of the game, certain times of the game.' "

Sounds like a red light/yellow light thing to me.

@HighEliteMajor I remember a couple of instances where Greene hesitated on shots he could have taken, as you pointed out. Were those after he got the 3 pt attempt blocked? Could that have been part of his hesitation?

That yesterday wasn't a very good day is abundantly clear. Giving the ball away about 4 times to start the second half gave OSU confidence that they did not have until that point. We were listless and did not play very well. Self wasn't happy about the first half except for the made shots he thought we played poorly.

Now let us imagine how WVU fans feel today about having their lunch totally eaten AT HOME by Baylor. Talk about listless. Who would have thought that Staten and the rest could play that poorly.

And poor UofA. To get bounced by a middling team like ASU must be particularly galling.

Well at least UK kicked the bejesus out of Flordia. NOT! With the exception of Duke and Virginia yesterday was pretty unforgettable for the top teams.

It is gloomy and rainy here in the bay area (god do we need it). I imagine that the weather is similar on most boards for the top schools around the country. Even UNC can't celebrate their win against that powerhouse BC wilh the news about Dean Smith.

@KUinLA What @icthawkfan316 is referring to is, and if you visit your profile it is quite evident, whenever you post it is usually negative posts about HCBS. And as he points out, some of us question game plans, actions and so on of HCBS, but don't dwell on it. Coaches coach and then it's up to the players to implement. Someone else commented and I've said the same thing, if I was a coach I'd been tempted to yank the starting five and send them to the bus after the first 5 minutes of the second half. Anyway, try making some positive comments instead of just showing up once or twice a month to bash HCBS.

@jaybate-1.0 How many of those TO's were the result of Greene, Selden and I think Ellis trying to drive the basket and just losing control of the ball? I'm getting to the point where I cover my eyes whenever one of our guys drive up the middle. And then at the other end I watch guys drive unmolested.

@icthawkfan316 Some people just don't get it when their tone of voice sounds denigrating or demanding. To me it's often how something is stated as much as what's being conveyed that suggests a message. Also a demanding tone in a post tends to lean towards an indication of impatience that can seem abrasive, & when this theme repeats itself over & over, may be an indication of something beyond the surface or what appears obvious. JMO

@HighEliteMajor I didn't see that quote, but it is telling. I'd agree, at least a yellow light.

I'd be interested to see him expand on that a bit, because Self has to know an 11 point lead on the road is not safe with a whole half left to play. In that respect, I still can't see them being instructed at halftime "no threes" (or again, whatever equivalent you want to insert). Could be Brannen just meant don't jack it up if he finds himself alone on a 1-on-3 break. Or with a 5 point lead and a minute left in the game to not hoist one up with 25 still left on the shot clock. Or just don't abandon the offense, try and beat your man off the dribble and end up shooting while double-teamed. I'm in favor of those type of restrictions.

So I'd be interested in what the red/yellow light might specifically entail.

The more interesting part to me is the "in the flow of the offense" comment. Brannen was out there a great deal in the second half. If not for his trey gun, then for what? Devonte would have been a better option against their pressure. I think Self still wanted Brannen to take open 3s. But as we've discussed, it's still the hi-lo Self offense, and we're not seeing the actions ran designed specifically to free up the shooters. And without adjustments and wrinkles to the offense it is easier for the defense to defend us, which I believe we did see yesterday from OSU. I thought they made guarding Greene and the shooters a priority and that it was difficult for us to get the same looks we got in the first half.

So I'm agreeing with you on that - that Self is not working to maximize the team's strength as much as he should. I just still have my doubts that he is actively trying to stymie that strength by telling the team to quit shooting.

@icthawkfan316 In others words, shoot the 3 when you're open but we're not gonna do anything special to get you open?

@ParisHawk That seems to be the prevailing opinion. Like HEM has stated, Self has set plays that we may see out of a timeout or at end of game situations, but the overall offense doesn't seem to include a whole lot of actions to free up shooters.

I have never coached basketball in my life, so I'm far from being an expert (or even a novice). I like to think I have a decent understanding of the game, but I won't pretend to know how difficult it would be to install such motions into our hi-lo offense, how the players would pick such things up, etc. HEM seems to think it wouldn't be difficult. He may be right. I don't know if we'll see it or not though...

@brooksmd Gotta face facts ol' bud, some of us are small minded people desperately trying to express ourselves. If I swear much & the wife hears, (ouch) that's my pat answer. She says' Saying that is Soooooooooo stupid!"

I think she's finally catching on,LOL !!

@icthawkfan316 said:

the overall offense doesn't seem to include a whole lot of actions to free up shooters.

Hmm, where have I heard that before? No wait, I shouldn't post unless I have something good to say

@KUinLA Look, if you're that clueless, it's not worth responding to you. This will be it. You'll be crushed I'm sure, but I'm confident you'll get over it. Whether you ever get over yourself...

One more time, holding out hope that maybe you are a real fan and not the troll everyone thinks you: as I have said, criticism is justified. It's OK to be down on the team, the coach, etc. But have you EVER came on this site and had one good thing to say? Or even one challenging thing to say that wasn't rooted in your hatred of Self? You never answered before, so I'm asking again.

We get it. You hate Self. But are you that little of a KU fan that you can only come on here after a loss to bash Self?

Honestly, what is the point of doing what you do? You're not rallying anyone to your way of thinking. No one is embracing you in the Jayhawk community (which is what I love about this place - the free flow of ideas between people sharing a common passion). You just keep coming out after every loss with the same tired drivel, and most tune you out.

It would be a lot easier to take you seriously if you weren't the same broken record all these years. But if you only have one, unchanging, rigid, dogmatic opinion...why would anyone respect what you have to say, even if they might agree with you?

You ask "hmm, where have I heard that before?" I get the sense that perhaps you are implying that you said that. I wouldn't know, because I read the first line or two of your posts and then dismiss you. You've never had anything new to say, why would you start now? I get the feeling that most of the site feels the same way.

@KUinLA I think the question that you haven't answered is where were you after KU blew out Texas, ISU, or any good game this season? If there is a legitimate reason, then sleep well with a clean conscious.

What I believe rubs @icthawkfan316 and others the wrong way is you treat this site like dog who gets beat after a bad day at work. I will assume the best and think that you actually enjoy this site and the Jayhawks and only feel the need to post when you can't take it anymore. But maybe try and venting all your thoughts and not just the negative one. In the end, you are a KU brother (or sister) and I hope you are enjoying the ride as much as everyone else. Have a good day!

I think our offense can use quite a bit of tweaking to open up more 3s. We need to run more than a Perry pick-n-pop, Perry at the top of the key, others running high ball screens etc. Most everything we are running now generates on the perimeter. Those kinds of plays usually don't open up someone for a wide open shot. The shots remain contested. Even Greene has his limitations.

We should be running stuff where Greene has to cut through the pack and go from one side to the other side or out top and in an open area. Or get Frank to drive more and feed out.

I think our best shot is to run Frank, Devonte and either Brannen or Wayne. Frank and Devonte should be driving and feeding either Brannen or Wayne. With two guys very capable of driving like that it really shouldn't be tough to free one perimeter shooter. Part of it is just clearing out a spot so team defense doesn't get to the shooter too quickly.

We still don't really make use of corner shooting. Brannen should be a marksman from the corners. This is the toughest spot on the floor to cover.

We were just having Brannen and another guard playing ball screen out on the perimeter in this game, and that isn't the way to open up the long ball. That is a way to open up a driving lane by preventing drive hedges to be set.

Guys.... it doesn't do us any good to vent our frustrations on each other.

Vent out anything you like but you will be taken more serious if you provide reasoning for your vent and possible solutions.

We should all bend and be open minded.

BTW: I do my best when someone totally picks apart my posts. Many times I need to be straightened out and I never seem to reach that point by myself. That is actually the most beneficial thing for me in participating here. All the knowledgeable posters help keep me straight. If I didn't have that I would think of myself as a true know-it-all jerk. So now I'm just a jerk! :-)

@JhawkAlum Intelligent exchanges with a B & B troll, is like dueling with an unarmed man. Is Pretty clear this guy is not a legitimate fan, but the opposite. When he crosses the line, & likely will, he'll be dumped like a few others have been. But honestly some of the funniest posts I recall from the old site were when some Butthead would take on jaybate head on. He'd chew on them as long as they wanted,; some seem to be simply absolute gluttons for punishment.

@globaljaybird I think @drgnslayr is right. We've kicked this can far enough down the road and the light hasn't come on yet so time to move on and enjoy the informative and sometimes amusing (@jaybate-1.0 are you listening?) banter we've become accustomed to. Besides, I fear we may wake-up @approxinfinity and then we'll have to deal with his wrath. Cheers all, have a great week and if not before I look forward to the TTU game chat and the rebound butt whooping they will receive.

One aspect of our game that I hope eventually gets addressed is how to run offense when the defense is tight and up in our face on the perimeter. It's been apparent in many games through out the season that when teams defend us tight on the outside, our offensive production is low, and our turnover rate is high. This happened again in the second half. Beyond the arc, OSU's defense was on us like cake on a fat kid...All over us. The result was an extremely low field goal %, and turnovers which gave them more runs, more momentum (especially playing at home), and utlimately the W. Let's learn how attack the tight perimeter D, because West Virginia's right around the corner, and we'll be facing that pressure from tip off to the final buzzer!

@brooksmd

This is a tough situation.

To be honest, I never played on a team that could not score back to basket on the blocks AND from outside. And I've never seen one that could only score from outside before. I've seen teams that struggled with one or the other, but I've never seen one that just gets shut off inside.

As the season has continued, I am beginning to think that what happened with Kentucky was not so much about Kentucky, as it was with us.

UK had four footers. Check.

UK had played 7 games before we opened with them. Check.

But we have trouble scoring on the blocks against second division teams sometimes.

Self has tried more different ways to score inside than I have ever seen a coach try.

He is on the right track.

But the OSU game exposed the very deficiencies of driving abilities that we thought were getting cleared up.

I think part of this has to do with limitations in our players, but also has to do with how young our players are.

I have said this before.

Each time we come up against a smart coach, and we are playing young players, he is going to find some holes in their games and scheme to stop them. In the pre OAD era, it could take players 2-4 years to work all the holes out of their games. In the OAD era, we are trying to expose the holes and plug them much more rapidly. So: as the season goes on, and we are developing the ability to play the way Self has blue printed us to play, there just ARE going to be MORE times in a season, when smart opposing coaches find chinks in our young players' armors, than say an experienced ring team like 08.

What I am trying to say here is that Self's plan for this team still seems a winning plan, despite our complaining about wanting him to do more of this or that.

We lost by 5 on a night when Ford figured out how to really expose and exploit our weaknesses driving.

Our guys will learn from this and get better. Maybe not great, but better.

And so the next time they play a team that tries to exploit those chinks in our armors, instead of losing by 5, we'll win by 5, or 10.

Its a process as they say.

Rock Chalk!!

I looked at @KUinLA's profile and his posts and I'm not sure why everyone's piling on. He's one of us it appears, barely posts anything anyways. Gee, he offered an opinion. Doesn't like the way our 3's are being set up. Fine. I don't care if you agree or not, but he's entitled to express what he sees.

Despite the tough loss after being up double figures in the first half, I am really impressed with the talent on this team. Each player has certain strengths that I feel out weigh their weaknesses. I think it's funny how people love to wallow in doom & gloom everytime we lose. I get it. It sucks. I say "Take it easy man, they can't all be winners can they? There is so much to be thankful for with this team. Even though are strong points aren't at the positions that they usually are, we still are extremely talented.
Remember the days when every single Jayhawk fan was begging for capable guards? Frank Mason is an absolute beast at the point who can score from any where. Not only that, he has great handles and can seemingly drive at will, and he's also very sound defensively. Selden's more recently shown us he's got a great shot from ouside, and he can defend well. Oubre is Uber athletic, has length, spark, with great hands defensively, and has the potential to be a consistent all around threat on the offensive side. Perry is a mature, intelligent veteran with an array of offensive moves, his dribble drive and shot are gradually getting more consistent, and he's got sound D. Jamari has an incredible frame, spurts of phenominal hustle, despite the haters he can produce effectively down low on both ends.
And that's just the current starting 5!
Off the bench, Devonte's got the basketball IQ of a 4 year player, with great handles who's always looking for the best shot, and above average on D. Greene is absolutely soaking wet from pretty much anywhere outside the paint, which can give the team momentum time and time again in tight situations, and is slowly improving his defense. And Cliff is an absolute monster with Thomas Robinson potential.
The point is, even though we've had a couple of losses...We've had a couple of losses! It's not like we go undefeated year in and year out, so L's are going to happen. I don't know about you, but I love watching this team. The key is figuring out how to utilize everyone's talent, and have every piece work together consistently as one. There have been games where they have achived it, and might I add against extremely tough teams. Like Jaybate said a couple posts ago, "Its a process." And I don't know about you, but with Self as the leader, I like the odds of him coaching these bright kids full of potential to be able to reach a state of pure TEAMWORK! So to all the doom and gloomers, "Don't hate, appreciate." "Keep Calm, and Hawk on!"

@icthawkfan316 Yes, you dismiss me--but you still can't resist replying to my posts. You really should get over me. Just as you're tired of me, I'm tired of you lambasting me every time I post something negative about your beloved coach. Especially when we often make the same points in our posts--that we don't handle the press well, that we don't run a 3pt offense, that the offense in general needs some tweaking. I wish you'd just get over your seemingly personal animosity towards me. Is it my hair in my avatar? Are you bald?

And yes, I do take a little gratification from seeing how many posters openly question Bill's coaching on this site. Especially when that invariably got me pilloried on the previous site. But now, it's pretty much acceptable and a normal topic of discussion here. I guess I was just ahead of the curve on that.

And yeah, I do pipe up after a loss. I guess that's where my philosophy differs from Bill's and the originator of this thread's. I don't wanna throw the tape in the trash. I believe you can actually learn something from a loss. Remember that thread from the previous site?

I've been told that I should try to be more positive in my posts

OK--Everything is AWESOME!!! ↗!everything-is-awesome-6.png ↗

And don't forget-- ALWAYS root for the local sports team!

@KUinLA said:

ALWAYS root for the local sports team!

The Lakers?

My local sports team is not allowed to touch the ball with their hands: what can I do?

@joeloveshawks Im pretty sure this has been mentioned in the past by a few on here. We are so lucky to be in the KU nation. There are only 3 other programs that enjoy the success that we do here at KU. And, none of those hold a candle to KU IMO. Even Duke and Coach K with his 1k wins. Which is amazing btw.
We mourn through a tough loss when KU gets beat and go through that process together. We cheer and get amped when KU does win, and it does do that quite frequently.
I would never dream of giving a part of my spirit and soul to any other team like I do with KU.
On the topic, I was definitely upset when KU lost. I was asking myself, how can a team so good play like such absolute crap? How is it possible? KU should win ALL the time! Especially against inferior coaches and opponents. I mean, really.
But, we all come to accept that KU isnt perfect and is not going to win all the time. We love our Jayhawks regardless of the losses and because of them.

RCJHKUALLDAY

@KUinLA Perspective allows one to see the entire picture better. Self and his general dislike for the 3 pointer has had to be dragged to the party. He is stubborn as a mule, but that stubbornness demands perfection from his team, and allows his teams to win 10 straight in conference, win a title, lose a title, and take KU to a level we have never been at since I have been following them ( 1972). Roy had his times - he had his moments, but we always came up short. Bill won. Would you prefer Bill simply change every aspect of his whole philosophy without a fight? I mean, Bill has made videos explaining the hi-lo...20 threes in a game nearly borders on sacrilege, I'm sure. He's coming around- we're still top 10. We're still in first in conference. It is not the end of the world.

Just wanna say that although i love coach Self. And wouldnt want anyone else to head this program. I cant understand the idea that some have. That he is infoulable beyond criticism. Not attacking anyone here. But im sorry. Hes a man. As imperfect as any other. He is foulable. And therfore can be questioned. I actually found myself questioning his urgency in the second half of this loss. Dont know that I meant it. But during the game I remember saying out loud. "I just dont think Coach Self cares about winning this game right now". Probably just a fit of rage honestly. But i did read on the other site that Self admitted even the coaches did as crappy a job as the players on saturday. I like that. Even if he doesnt believe it. Hes humble enough to say it to us. A fanbase with more passion for our beloved Jayhawks/program than can be matched In my opinion. I am as guilty as anyone and moreso than some. We must sometimes guard against our own passion becoming a detourant. We will be mad/sad when we lose. We will be on cloud 9 when we win. All this is to be expected. This is not 10 year olds playing rec ball. For fun. Its bigtime hoops. And the most tradition rich program in history. Cant expect those with a massive investment of their heart and soul to not be passionate about it. For it may very well be that passion which is what will sustain longterm success. I feel we must all always strive for more from everyone involved with this program. Including ourselves as fans.
So there's my opinion. Together with a token it might get ya on a subway. :)

Is there a possibility that HCBS is playing the Bracket to avoid the UK's region. After UK and Temple losses, I think it is hard to argue our case for 1 seed. If we are going to be 2 seed, which region will give us the best chance to advance.

I think this could be early; but, isn't HBCS plays the RPI every year and plans his schedule very early. No one knows his Team better than him. Maybe HCBS knows his Team will need some help in clever bracketing.

And, to why HCBS wants to have a deep run this year with a young team? I think HCBS may just want the legitimacy (with a FF) when he brings his troop to South Korea this summer. Just maybe. RCJH!

@KUSTEVE Well I'll agree with what you say, but for me, it's not about winning the conference. That means nothing to me if you get bounced in the tournament by a lesser team. Roy had his tourney upsets, but he still made it to the Final Four 4 times. And his upsets were not nearly as painful (to me anyway) as Bill's have been. I'm glad to see Bill is coming around, (slowly but surely) but you gotta recognize, the game has changed. You can make all the videos you want explaining the hi-lo c0ncept, but if you keep getting bounced from the tourney by an 8, 9 or 10 seed (or worse) what's the point? The game has moved on.

@KUinLA

I believe you will see varying opinions on the value of winning the Conference title. Many of us believe that winning the conference represent continuous excellence and it also prepares you and set you up for a better seed in the tournament and as such it is very important and an achievement that rewards you for the 18 game conference schedule. Others believe that only a deep run in the NCAA tournament has value and that he conference title has little or no value.

I personally think that a deep run in the NCAA tournament involves talent of course, but also a good dose of luck and favorable match ups. Rick Pitino said that the tournament is designed so any team has a change to win it, and that if it would go a 2 of 3 series, the top teams would win every time. Remember KU's improbable run in '88? KU had a lot of luck winning that Championship but there were several other years when it really should have won it and yet it did not. Was Uconn the best teams last year? absolutely not; it was barely ranked in the top 25 and yet it won with one lucky run. How about Kentucky last year? it made to the finals by beating teams by 7 (KSU and largest margin), 2, 5, 3, and 1 point, a couple of those buzzer beaters. Just my opinion.

@KUinLA I agree that as KU fans, sometimes we get a little caught up (more than most fan bases) on winning the league. Other than our unprecedented dominance as of late, league success isn't recognized on a national level. We get bragging rights for another year against our conference, and a better tourney seeding. But that is about it.

But I am buying what @JayHawkFanToo is selling. It shows that we have been relevant year in and year out. And that we show consistent excellence. When you win the league, you are always a threat for the Final 4 and we have seen that over the past decade. The early exits is another monster that would have to be discussed on another board, but you catch my drift.